General Star Wars Animated Series

There's quite a bit to the current canon that would disagree with you. Anakin, while believing in the Jedi and the Republic (to a decreasing extent), is often portrayed in both the current EU (and even on rare occasion in the films) to be rather politically accepting of fascist leanings on the belief that it gets the job done better than democracy or bureaucracy.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 23rd 2018 at 5:33:13 AM

need some names or arrows to figure out who you are responding to.

The person immediately before me. If it were more than that, I would've used arrows.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 23rd 2018 at 5:34:08 AM

I might as well add. Only Vader really cares about the Anakin Skywalker thing. In a recent book another Imperial asks him if he is Anakin Skywalker based on conversation he had had with Anakin years back in the Clone Wars.

Vader's response is to deny it say Anakin is dead then tell the other guy "We will never speak of him again. You will never speak of him again."

So it's really only a big deal to Vader.

Edited by Envyus on Aug 23rd 2018 at 6:37:47 AM

I just don't see him being motivated by fear in the OT. Not of Tarkin or of the Emperor. The Anakin Skywalker who stood before Obi-Wan and declared, "I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire!" is pretty much exactly who I've always seen Vader as.

I can't see any reason why he would hate Palpatine. That makes very little sense to me. The guy's basically his father figure. As noted, Anakin cruelly destroyed everything he ever loved out of misguided fear and resentment sacrificed so much to build this Empire. Yes, he's lost a lot, but in "Revenge of the Sith", he pretty clearly sees himself as the victim.

• The Jedi betrayed the Republic.
• Padme betrayed him.
• Under the manipulation of Obi-Wan, who also betrayed him.

That's Anakin's worldview at movie's end and it fits perfectly with the brutal enforcer of Palpatine's will we see in the OT. It doesn't make sense that those losses would suddenly make Anakin realize that he's the bad guy after all and then that he'd spend the next twenty years cravenly continuing to be the bad guy. To a guy like him, those losses would further entrench the idea that the people who haven't betrayed him are Good.

Like. This is kind of a really important aspect of Vader because it's literally the crux of his entire story in the OT. The culmination of his story is his Heel Realization as he's watching Palpatine torture Luke to death. That fateful moment where he chooses his love for his family over his life's work, the Empire he proudly dedicated everything to and "sacrificed" so much for.

Declaring that Vader always hated the Empire and Palpatine and was just too chickenshit to do anything about it is applying "Greedo Shot First" logic to Darth F*cking Vader. It completely cheapens his Heel–Face Turn and subsequent Redemption Equals Death.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 23rd 2018 at 6:55:54 AM

Anakin is rather explicitly afraid to come to terms with who he is and what he's done, which in part is why he attaches so strongly to the Sunk Cost Fallacy. He's afraid to acknowledge himself as anything more than a victim of circumstance, which is why he casts away the identity of Anakin Skywalker. If he can say "I used to be weak enough to let these people take advantage of me, but now the man who made those mistakes is dead and I am better for it," he can supposedly take a hit but ultimately keep his pride by still putting the blame on everyone around him.

As for hating Palpatine, it's generally taken that somewhere along the line he came to realize that Palpatine manipulated him as well, and has now reduced him to a lap dog and a tool despite how much he's lost and sacrificed. That doesn't mean he believes that Palpatine was wrong to get rid of the Jedi or create the Empire, but that he despises the way Palpatine has used him.

Vader is the victim in his own mind. Which means that everyone is against him, and its everyone else - not himself - who is responsible for the cybernetic hell he resides in. Including (maybe even especially, since he doesn't really have any other living people to center his selfish loathing on most of the time) Palpatine.

That's why his reaction upon learning Luke is alive is to immediately start plotting behind Palpatine's back, so he could do it all himself.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 23rd 2018 at 6:27:10 AM

OK, I see where this went sideways-you are taking a slice of Anakin after he butchers the temple and strangles his wife, right before he gets his limbs chopped off and barbequed, then finds out that he actually murdered his wife and unborn children-then discovers Palpatine was lying all along. Whatever secrets of immortality Palpatine possesses, he intends to keep to himself. Which Vader learns when Palpatine stuffs him into a crude, awful life support system and grafts terrible cybernetics to replace his limbs, rather than use Force techniques to heal him. And Padme and their children are gone, with Sidious' powers of no help to save them or resurrect them.

You are saying Anakin's whole character is there when he is ranting and raving in the middle of an emotional meltdown, after striking his wife and watching his best friend draw a weapon against him. We are saying that his real character is what comes before and after-lying to his wife to manipulate her for her 'protection', murdering children because he is too afraid of losing Padme, and finally being too much of a coward to press the issue once he knows what he has done and what Palpatine has done. Instead, he lashes out once, before breaking down and submitting to his abuser.

Edited by ViperMagnum357 on Aug 23rd 2018 at 9:34:13 AM

A really good comparison to the kind of temperament Vader has in something made nowadays is Mariah Dillard, from Luke Cage.

Mariah is the Big Bad, and she's the daughter of a terrible but influential crime family who puts on a veneer of being a legitimate politician. Depending on the moment, she could either scorn her family's criminal past as cruel and traumatic, or gush about how her family is the only reason Harlem survived and thrived for decades. Either being a criminal is something she was trafically forced into by her corrupt family and their enemies, or her criminal ways are a Necessary Evil with negligible consequences that Luke Cage is wrong for trying to curtail.

Despite these being contradictory, she doesn't see it that way because she does both for the exact same reason: self delusion and aggrandizement.

Depending on who she's talking to, she's either better than her family, or better than anyone who isn't her family. She's a crook because of the world dragging her down, or she's a crook because it's the noble sacrifice she has to make to protect her city and her family.

Either way, she has the high ground and it's everyone else who's the problem.

This is the same delusion that runs deep with Vader. In his mind: he was betrayed by Padme and Ahsoka. He was manipulated by Obi-Wan and the Jedi. He was reduced to a robotic lackey by Palpatine, the deepest cut of all. The Separatists / Jedi / Rebels are getting the way of peace. It's everyone else: all he's ever tried to do is bring safety and security to his Empire. And he'll do it, too, even if all of them have to die!

Cue Luke jumping off a cliff rather than join up with him.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 23rd 2018 at 6:26:50 AM

He does not hate the Empire. He does hate Palpatine however. Most Sith Masters make their students hate them.

I think Known’s got the gist of it.

Known's explanation does gel the most with what I know of the guy.

I do want to raise one more quibble, and it's that someone mentioned in this discussion as an example of Vader being motivated by fear that he's afraid of Tarkin and lets Tarkin push him around.

That's not a thing.

Vader does stop choking a man because Tarkin tells him to, but there's no indication that he's afraid of Tarkin. The two get along amicably throughout the film. They have a strong professional relationship and, at one point, Tarkin even straight-up calls Vader "my friend".

Vader's not afraid of Tarkin. He respects Tarkin and that's why he stops choking a dude at Tarkin's insistence. "The Clone Wars" shows us the origin of that respect and that amicable relationship, with Anakin quickly taking a shine to Captain Tarkin and bonding over how much they both think the Jedi's military leadership sucks.

Well, to quibble a bit more, I said that Vader was afraid of Palpatine, (which he is), and the exchange with Tarkin is framed as an order given by a superior officer to a subordinate rather than a request from a friend-and Tarkin's authority comes straight from the Emperor. On the other hand, Vader's response can be taken as either a personal favor or compliance with an order. That chain of command is implied by the fact the Tarkin was informed personally by the Emperor when the latter dissolves the Senate, rather than Tarkin getting a memo or reading this off a bulletin. In any case, I think this particular horse has been drawn, quartered, and already stewed.

Changing tack-are you still biting into season 2 daily, or maybe sequestering some time for a binge later?

Edited by ViperMagnum357 on Aug 23rd 2018 at 1:57:13 PM

Biting here and there. I play the show in the background when I'm at work, because having a controlled distraction helps the rest of my brain stay focused on the task I'm trying to do. My mind is always trying to do like five things at once and I need to take some of those logic trains and shackle them to something so that I can clearly hear the rest.

But I also have other Controlled Distraction fodder I try to keep up to date on as well so I don't always wind up getting to the show.

Which, as an aside, if I ever bring something up like, "They did not explain this at all!" and they actually explained it like five seconds earlier, that's why.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 23rd 2018 at 12:06:02 PM

We finished Clone Wars (at least until the new episodes are available) and have begun Rebels. There was quite a bit of interesting material in those last three episodes, which despite digging more deeply than they probably should have into the nature of the Force, nicely explained why only a few Jedi can manifest as "force ghosts" and continue to appear after death. It was great to hear Liam Neeson voicing Qui-Gon again, and I enjoyed seeing Yoda finally get some focus after doing very little for most of the series. And Mark Hamill gets an appearance as Darth Bane, eh? Cool.

And have we ever seen Sidious and Dooku physically in the same place at the same time? If we have, it's been a rare thing for this series. They talk via hologram and stay in touch, certainly, but working together as master and apprentice to go after Yoda was something new. And seeing Sidious a bit unnerved for once was great, as he fails to break Yoda. Good stuff, though I think it was a bit drawn out over three episodes.

Ezra from Rebels is totally Aladdin, down to being a street rat. Despite the Disney-fied designs of all the characters, this show is off to a great start, and it's clear that Filoni and crew have learned a lot from years of working on Clone Wars. Kanan as a surviving Jedi who responded to Obi-Wan Kenobi's warning (from Episode 3 I presume) is a nice touch, and the rest of the crew seem like they'll develop nicely as the series progresses. We've got multiple layers of villains to work through, from the hapless Stormtroopers to the low level officers, Agent Callus, the Inquisitor and finally Vader himself. And Tarkin is out there somewhere, along with the Emperor. Should be lots of potential in this series.

James Earl Jones returns to voice Darth Vader?!? Very nice! I hope we see him again.

Edited by andersonh1 on Aug 27th 2018 at 5:46:22 AM

Its 'Kallus', actually.

Ezra is totally Aladdin and it's hilarious how on-the-nose they are about that - to the point of unashamedly calling him "street rat". Just in case it was too subtle.

I'm half-expecting to find out that Sabine is secretly some kind of Mandalorian princess just because Ezra wants to bone her. Well, that and her name is one letter off from "Satine", which seems deliberate.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 27th 2018 at 10:21:28 AM

Bookmarked. you will see why when you get that far.

I just finished Rebels, and was very satisfied with the ending. I like how they finally picked up that plot thread with Ahsoka and the Daughter near the end - didn't expect to see the Mortis gods acknowledged again, or that Darth Sidious even knew about them to begin with. Still though, what was Ahsoka up to during all those years? Was she in hiding? Where did she get that swanky outfit she was wearing in the last episode?

Edited by Xopher001 on Aug 27th 2018 at 9:07:48 PM

02x03 - The Lost Commanders

So right off the bat, Ezra asserts that he'd rather go with Ahsoka to investigate the truth about Darth Vader. I concur, because I'm super interested in her journey and would rather be hanging out with her than Kanan and Ezra. Don't get me wrong, those two are cool, but she's Anakin Skywalker's apprentice.

But meeting up with Rex is pretty neat too. We get some worldbuilding about what actually became of the clone soldiers. Rex confirms that there is zero overlap between the Clone Troopers and the Imperial Stormtroopers; all clones have been retired.

I don't like that, honestly. Between this and Order 66 being a mind-control chip, it feels like it undermines the inherent tragedy of the Clone Wars and the complexity of war and military service. The political complexity inherent in the idea that many of the same people served the Empire and the Republic is part of what makes Star Wars stand out among its fantasy peers.

I feel like it takes something away from Star Wars to have Palpatine go, "Okay, now that I've solidified my evil control over the galaxy, it is time to FIRE ALL GOOD GUY SOLDIERS. We use only Bad Guy Soldiers from this day forth!" I was really hoping to see some familiar faces now playing for the other team, on the grounds that their team is technically the same team that our team was during the Clone Wars.

I don't know. We're not told exactly when the Clone Troopers were retired, but it still feels awfully convenient, narratively speaking, that it happened just in time for the show to start up. You know, to spare us the heartbreaking tragedy of having to fight Rex that the first show would absolutely have made us do without hesitation.

Like. They try to play it up as a complex situation throughout the episode, but it's not. Rex is 100% a Good Guy and Kanan is wrong for doubting him. Period, end of story, nothing more to be said. Even the one clone who defects and sells them out immediately recants his actions as soon as everyone finds out about it. And as the icing on the cake, they all took out their Evil Mind Control Chips, so they weren't even forcibly complicit in Order 66!

Knowing that Rex and his guys were able to get out before ever having to do anything sinister for the Empire really ruins some of the complex tragedy that was the first show. And then the episode tries to have its cake and eat it by introducing pointless petty conflict against two sets of characters already established to be 100% unambiguously pure-hearted white-hatted good guys.

And also a bunch of screentime spent on a fight with wildlife. Again. Just so they can go, "They didn't tell Zeb he's bait! Ooooooh, maybe the clones are bad guys!" But they're not. They never were, they never will be. You know it, I know it, and it's total bullshit that the episode tries to wring even the slightest bit of drama out of it when it's too gutless to actually involve them in the legitimately sinister activity they should have been involved in. Ugh, f*ck this episode.

02x04 - Relics of the Old Republic

Here, we get the follow-up on the previous episode, with Kanan and Ezra now leading Rex and crew and numerous references to the old days. And maybe I'd be more excited for that but I've already seen these guys working for Jedi. I was looking forward to seeing them working against Jedi.

There isn't even a clever dynamic in Anakin's old crew now opposing him because 1) Anakin isn't even here to present that dynamic and 2) R2-D2 and Ahsoka already exist. This just feels like empty fanservice. "Yay, Rex is still a good guy and now he's fighting the Empire! Woohoo!"

It's funny to me that Ezra complains about not being able to see the Walkers in the sandstorm when they're clearly visible. I could hit those things and I don't even have the Force. Just aim for the headlights, dude. Nothing else in the sandstorm is giving out painfully obvious beams of light.

I love how the show's not even pretending we should be afraid of Dumbass Inquisitor 2: Electric Boogaloo. He's got another one of those lazy self-twirling ringsabers on his back, he's wearing a Super Mario mushroom hat, and his introduction totally jeopardizes an operation to take down the Rebels.

The guy hasn't even done anything yet and he's already a useless f*ck-up. It's great!

Still weirds me out how peaceful and wise Ahsoka. "Nothing worth doing ever is [easy]," she closes out the episode by asserting in her bizarre, uncharacteristic Emotionless Coma-Jedi voice. Man, all of the fire and enthusiasm really did just die out in this character offscreen, didn't it?

Mario what?

In some ways, it is more tragic the clones were retired so quickly-they thought they were the good guys, but they got used up and thrown away once they had successfully brought the GFFA under the heel of a tyrant. That locks them out, preventing them from using their positions as soldiers from doing anything positive, even as little as influencing new recruits as the clones get phased out. No access, nothing-just shuffled off to die, after watching their brothers-and sometimes themselves-be mind controlling into shooting the Jedi in the back. While that did not happen to these 3, it happened to almost all of their brothers and they could do nothing about it in time, which is worse in some ways.

As for Ahsoka, she is emphatically not a Jedi anymore, something that will get explored as well. She learned from the best, but she is following her own path now.

Edited by ViperMagnum357 on Aug 27th 2018 at 6:59:53 AM

I know what you mean, and I did like in Legends how the Imperial military was a mix of Fett clones, new clones, and recruits. However, there are some political reasons for getting rid of the clones. They were basically a slave army, so "freeing" them probably looked magnanimous on Palpatine's part, as well as signalling an official end of the Clone Wars. We see a bit of that later, with an Imperial soldier basically telling Rex "I respect your service and everything, but you are done. You retired, you should have stayed retired." Furthermore, the various Imperial military academies use lots of Sith teachings about exploiting your allies and whatnot, while the clones would have taught a different method.

I believe there were originally plans for Commander Cody to show up as a pro-Imperial clone, though I can't remember if he was supposed to actually be part of the military or just patriotic in general. And a few non-clone soldiers from TCW do show up as Imperial officers, though no attention is drawn to them, so you might not notice.

What's more there is the fact that the clones age faster. From what I've read they stayed in service for a while but were ultimately the first wave of what would become the Imperial military. By Rebels most have phased out and the few that remain are instructors.

Doesn't someone offer Rex a position at the Imperial academy in a later episode? So yeah, some clones did remain with the new Imperial military, teaching and training stormtroopers.

To me, that's a tragedy too. The clones were constantly treated as disposable. Now they're not needed anymore, so they're being thrown away.

Also, I recall that maintaining the clone army was a huge drain on the Republic's finances, so Palpatine probably made up some thing about "we don't need them anymore, let's free up some budget for other things!" Which, I'm sure, was a massive lie, since Death Stars don't build themselves.

Also their are still some younger clones in service, presumably the five million Palps ordered back in the Clone Wars TV series.