I thought tropes were not bad: Bad Writing

You're still missing my point.

Besides, Did Not Do The Research covers more than "not doing research properly and looking stupid for it." It also covers "not bothering to do the research and using creative license to spice a subject up a little bit," hence why a lot of that page's subtropes have been renamed as "Artistic Licenses."

There is nothing bad about not doing the research in and of itself when writing any kind of story. What's bad about it depends on viewer expectations. Sometimes reality would be too dull or too unrealistic for an audience to appreciate, so not reflecting accurate research for a real thing wouldn't be such a big deal. It's when an audience expects certain things be be as they are in the real world when this trope becomes a problem in a work.

And, again, nothing on this index should be about any tropes being inherently bad. This is an index for tropes that have a general potential to cause serious problems in writing and establishing plot structure and development. There is a difference.

edited 16th Jun '11 6:54:45 AM by SeanMurrayI

Bump.

"This is an index for tropes that have a general potential to cause serious problems in writing and establishing plot structure and development."

If that's the case, then Handle These Tropes With Care sounds like a better name.

Sadly, we already have "Handle This Index With Care".

I repeat, we already have Handle This Index With Care.

So, no, Handle These Tropes With Care is not an appropriate name.

Thanks Luc "Captain Obvious Meets Dumbass Has a Point" French

I vote we keep it the same as before because to be honest, would anyone have any legitimate reason to assume that the usage of Mary sues is not a bad thing?

Yea, it's called their opinion. There's no way objectively to qualify something, even tropes, as Good or bad. Hence, why Tropes Are Not Bad and Tropes Are Not Good

I don't see why that matters as long as it's not a Bad Snowclone.

edited 19th Jun '11 7:16:24 AM by captainpat

There is, however, a way to objectively qualify trope use as good or bad.

In their straight form, Plot Holes, Mary Sues, Ass Pulls, etc. would all generally do objective harm to a story structure. It may be possible for all these tropes to be parodied or Played for Laughs (especially when lampshaded) to get a more constructive value out of them, but when played straight these are very bad conventions that should be avoided entirely in good writing.

Even in the trope descriptions for the pages I've just named, the straight form is described as something harmful to narratives that should be completely avoided.

edited 19th Jun '11 10:07:21 AM by SeanMurrayI

Plot Hole, can only hurt the story if the audience is bothered by it and both Mary Sue and Ass Pull are YMMV, so none of these trope objectively harm the story structure.

Also I thought the point of this wiki was to be descriptive not instructional.

edited 19th Jun '11 10:14:53 AM by captainpat

Mary Sue is YMMV because there isn't any single agreed upon definition for what exactly the trope is, as the trope description states. Among the few details the description does provide, however, is the idea that a Mary Sue's presence generally does not benefit a narrative.

And Ass Pull's YMMV defense isn't very strong, since the concept is very closely related to Plot Hole, which is both objective and written up to be just as critical as Ass Pull's description is. None of this even changes the fact that an Ass Pull is still being explicitly described on the page as a negative element in storytelling.

Plot Holes also do not require an audience reaction to be harmful to a story. By definition, a Plot Hole creates "gaps in a story where things happen without a logical reason"; a plot hole would be a blemish on a narrative structure by default.

edited 19th Jun '11 10:39:22 AM by SeanMurrayI

If the definition of what a Mary Sue is disagreeable then I don't why whether or not it would be in-use wouldn't also be disagreeable as well.

Also that's Classifying Plot Hole and Ass Pull as inherently bad, which the description of the tropes does not, does not take into account works with Negative Continuity.

Bump.

Maybe we should rename this to Tropes That Are Bad.

Bump.

Could a mod lock this thread? Two of the last three posts have been "Bumps", which indicates that the thread is dead.

Thanks
Luc "Let it die" French

I think you have a point. Locking.