Team Rocket Boss.
None of this is good Vector, and this is why it's called WAR!
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Snow Ghost
It would be kind of hard to notice that Generations scene...since it wasn't in the actual game.
Tails barely reacts at all to the Time Eater in Generations' actual cutscenes.
YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.
Role Model
Wait yeah, Classic Sonic and Tails weren't there for the Time Eater's first appearance, or any appearance of it when Sonic and Tails were on grassy ground.
The sad, REAL American dichotomy
CHADhan Player.
@Wanderlust: Look, I will be the last person to ever defend Forces' writing. It's absolutely shit at telling its story.
But the game is essentially about war and how it affects people, physically and mentally. That's literally the message of the entire game.
Saying "Tails wouldn't be affected by this, so therefore it's Out of character" ignores the entire context and circumstances of the game itself. Is it poorly communicated? 100% Forces has to be one of the worst cases of a story with a poorly communicated theme and message that I've seen.
But as a result of that, it's caused a Misaimed Fandom of sorts. And I get it, I really do. Tails has been steadily moved away from an active role for over ten years now and Forces was the straw that broke the camel's back for his fanbase.
I get it. But man, it's so hard to even talk about Forces because nobody even wants to bother looking at it beyond "Tails is coward, therefore bad".
I guess it's gonna be a few more years before Forces gets it's second wind like the Adventure era games did.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Role Model
I'm not asking you to come to Forces' defense in any capacity. Usually I'm the one doing that myself. I wasn't asking anything of you, but now I want you to realize you're reacting to things I didn't say. I didn't say "Tails wouldn't be affected by this," at all. Again, you keep putting words in my mouth that are nowhere near what I said. Please, read carefully, what I'm actually saying:
Tails' reaction in Forces was disproportionate to, and inconsistent with, his previous reactions. This was even different to his reactions in very similar circumstances, such as in Adventure 2 when he similarly believed Sonic died in front of his eyes.
Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Mar 15th 2023 at 1:45:10 PM
The sad, REAL American dichotomy
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
I just think Knuckles having some military traits is neat, even if it raises questions. He is, however, a disciplined warrior even before the movie and Forces were a thing, so I'll allow it.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Role Model
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I also think it's neat and fitting. He's a character of discipline and habit. And he's so serious he doesn't chuckle. Heck, Frontiers had him acting as a platoon leader at points.
CHADhan Player.
Pardon me if I'm misunderstanding your words, but how is the statement "Tails' reactions don't align with previous portrayals" which is what you are saying I assume.
And the statement "Tails shouldn't be affected by [the events of Forces]" different from each other?
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Role Model
...are you kidding?
The sad, REAL American dichotomy
CHADhan Player.
I'm being 100% serious. No bullshit, assume I'm dumb right now.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Role Model
Okay, ask yourself if the following two statements are saying the same thing:
- The sequence of letters A, B, C... doesn't logically lead to the number 9
- The number 9 should be removed from existence
Because I'm only saying the former, and you're reacting like I'm saying the latter.
The sad, REAL American dichotomy
CHADhan Player.
I think I got the gist of the issue right now. You're arguing from the perspective of speaking about a specific sequence of events.
In this case, you're comparing Tails' portrayal in Forces to his previous ones.
I was only referring to Tails' portrayal in the context of Forces itself, I wasn't at all comparing it to his prior ones because I felt it wasn't really relevant to the point.
If we're talking about thr former well then...that's moot. How Tails acts in previous games isn't relevant to how he is in Forces.
Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 15th 2023 at 2:57:17 PM
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Role Model
It's not moot, it's very relevant, especially considering you were responding to my agreeing with Flynn pointing out how Tails' actions in Forces were an Out-of-Character Moment. Of course you have to take a moment claimed to be "out of character" in the context of that character. Mainline Sonic games do not occur in a vacuum, and never have.
Adventure 1: In Tails' story, Tails is willing to take on Chaos 4, not just Chaos 0. Even if you take the less charitable version that is Sonic's cutscene, he still doesn't express fear or ask to be saved.
Adventure 1: Tails clearly states he knows he can take on Eggman on his own, and that he can't just rely on Sonic.
Adventure 2: Tails' first action in the story is to drop whatever he was doing to bust Sonic out of prison, only stopping to save Amy from Eggman himself.
Adventure 2: Tails, Sonic, and a bystander (Amy) are confronted by Eggman and an engineered set of conditions in Eggman's favor where Sonic apparently "dies". Tails' immediate response is to be more determined and take on the foe head on.
06: Admittedly, 06 is the only game in this list that I haven't played or seen the full story of. Fortunately, it removed its own story from canon, so it's less relevant but included for completion's sake. Sonic actually is dead. Tails still doesn't take it as badly as, say, Amy. Though understandably the non-hedgehogs are Out of Focus in this scene, and the game in general. Silver doesn't give up hope.
Colors: I'll admit, I misremembered this scene. Tails does admit to being "a little scared", but still doesn't want to be kept from helping to fight.
Lost World: After Tails takes one hit, Sonic gets overprotective, to the point Tails spends the entire game indignant about not being trusted to be able to contribute on his own. Notably, after leaping to save Sonic, Tails finds himself surrounded by the Zeti with no backup. Thanks to a bit of Bond Villain Stupidity, Tails engineers his own escape while brimming with confidence.
But then we get to Forces: Tails and some bystanders cower from literal mooks. After Sonic saves them from that, Tails, Sonic, and a bystander(s) are confronted by Eggman and an engineered set of conditions in Eggman's favor where Sonic apparently "dies". Tails' immediate response is to cower and let Sonic get beat in a 5 on 1, then effectively run away and go off the grid for months.
Forces: Tails is so off the grid that Silver (hey look, his optimism actually did carry over from 06) finds him as unreliable as someone presumed dead, while Vector shakes his head in agreement.
Forces: Tails is confronted by Chaos 0 (not, as he faced before, Chaos 4). His immediate reaction is to turn around, cower, and call out for Sonic to save him.
Frontiers: Tails describes himself as always being on the sidelines waiting for Sonic to save him, to which Sonic points out some fear is a reasonable part of growing up, but the extent to which Tails described his actions is just not true, using several of the examples above.
Basically, it's not out of character for Tails to have some fear (see: the Colors scene), and no one said it was. As the (variably attributed) quote goes, "courage is not the absence of fear, but triumph over it." And Tails' character development is all about that triumph over fear. However Forces amped that up to the point of Tails cowering from mooks and enemies he has beaten before, being unreliable to his friends for months, and wishing to be saved. That is what was out of character, and that is what I, and Flynn's writing of the last cutscene above, was responding to.
Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Mar 15th 2023 at 3:17:55 AM
The sad, REAL American dichotomy
Snow Ghost
Adventure 2 was a long time ago.
In regards to Tails' portrayal in Forces, I don't care if it was inconsistent with how he acts in Adventure 2 because since Adventure 2, Tails has been the most boring version of himself who didn't act like he went through any character development anyway.
YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.
CHADhan Player.
In which I clarified that Flynn acknowledged and contextualized the apparent inconsistencies in Tails' character to handwave those moments.
Otherwise there would be no point to Sonic comforting Tails about his weaker moments reassuring that he never once held it against him.
Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Mar 15th 2023 at 3:07:40 PM
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Role Model
I was editing my post to include Tails' character across every game (except Generations), including the one that immediately precedes Forces.
I completed my previous post. Again, no one said that Tails' actions in Forces didn't happen. Some fear is reasonable, such as in the Colors cutscene. His actions in Forces, however, such as cowering from Mooks, were fear disproportionate to the point of being inconsistent with his decades of actions and character development. If you take Tails in Forces without Tails' established history, Then the person you are evaluating is "just a guy Sonic and friends know." And the levels of fear would be consistent of someone who is "just a guy"note . But Tails isn't "just a guy."
Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Mar 15th 2023 at 2:56:37 PM
The sad, REAL American dichotomy
The Wandering Geek
He actually cowered in fear from Chaos.
Every time someone claims to be realistic is a dour cynic in disguise.
Team Rocket Boss.
SONIC HELP ME!
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Role Model
I literally linked the individual labeled cutscenes and said he cowered from both.
☆♥☆
I think trying to recontextualize and handwave the issue via straight up talking about the way they did in Frontiers is not a good thing. It doesn't sound realistic, it comes off like the characters having a meta conversation about their own writing as fictional characters. It just sounds dumb and hacky.
The best solution to "fixing" Tails is unironically just to write him differently in later games and just ignore the shit in Forces or the like. There's no need acknowledge it happened. Sonic and Tails aren't real. They don't exist and the events of Forces or any Sonic game never actually happened. If a writer doesn't acknowledge it then it has no effect on anything going on in the present story.
People don't want to sit around watching Tails have a meta redemption arc on behalf of his previous writers about him growing past plot beats that many think should never have been written, and don't matter to anything going on in a present game because each Sonic game is mostly self-contained. Just have Tails be a better version of himself and people will be happy.
Edited by KuroBaraHime on Mar 15th 2023 at 3:57:54 PM
Best Ogre
Even though this franchise isn't that story-heavy, your suggestion kind of comes across as disrespectful to the audience. It's like acting like we don't know what's going on.
Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Mar 15th 2023 at 4:01:37 AM
SoundCloud
Role Model
@blackyakuzu94: this is what you were suggesting I was saying we should outright ignore things. Notice I did not say that.
Agreed.
Individual conflicts are self-contained, but Sonic games reference past events as canon all the time. Off the top of my head, every mainline game since Generations has had at least one reference to a prior game.
Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Mar 15th 2023 at 3:16:01 AM
The sad, REAL American dichotomy
☆♥☆
Edited by KuroBaraHime on Mar 15th 2023 at 4:03:45 AM
Best Ogre
It's like treating the audience like we aren't smart enough to realize the writing team is hastily fixing their own mess.
Heck, Frontiers is practically a direct sequel to Adventure 1.
Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Mar 15th 2023 at 4:05:37 AM
SoundCloud
I think we should ignore Forces so we don't have to think about Knuckles military tactics getting tons of people killed.