General Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Screw "replay value", I'd rather complete the level 100% on my first go. Only reason I ever replay levels is for fun.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 10th 2022 at 5:31:12 AM

Like I said, you're one of very few people who use such a definition for "complete".

The definition of "do and get everything in the level"? That's how most people use the term. Just getting to the goal is "finishing".

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 10th 2022 at 5:33:59 AM

If by "everything" you mean stuff like "every single ring", then yeah. Almost no one counts that.

No, not every single ring, no-one plays Mario and intends to get all the coins (most of the coins, sure, but not all of them, and rings in Sonic are also his life-bar, so there's no point in collecting all of them). But everything aside from the rings. All the little nooks and crannies explored, all the 1-ups, loops, secrets, all the power-ups, all the enemies, everything aside from the rings. Just experience all the level in one go.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 10th 2022 at 5:37:09 AM

That's still way more than almost anyone counts.

Personally, I go by what the game keeps a record of. Chaos Emeralds are tracked. Power ups are not.

To me, it's just like, what's the point in playing a level if you don't experience all of it? I keep track, and if I miss some section of the level, I want to go back and see if there's anything cool there, I don't like leaving sections unexplored because I just assume there's nothing important to find there.

Because you can get lost over the level and find neat stuff. I know I revisit Final Rush from time to time and find a neat little area somewhere else every time.

But I don't want to revisit levels unless I really enjoyed them. Like 80% of the time in all games, I play levels once and never revisit them again ever, so I want to get the most out of them I can that one time.

Maybe I'm overplaying it, this isn't a dealbreaker for me, it's just something minor that's always bugged me about the level design philosophy.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 10th 2022 at 6:04:12 AM

Good for you, nobody is forcing you to do so, you don't have to like everything. Let people enjoy things.

Edited by Eriorguez on Oct 10th 2022 at 3:11:27 PM

...I don't know where you got that I wasn't letting people enjoy things. I prefaced this whole thing by saying it's just a minor gripe I, personally, have always had with Sonic level design that didn't match up with my, personal, playstyle.

Let people not enjoy things.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 10th 2022 at 6:14:18 AM

Sonic’s games are designed to be replayed over and over again so that you can become more skillful at the games. The thing is…most games aren’t designed with replays in mind these days. The syntax of game design these days is a lot different than when Sonic was created.

If you don't enjoy something, it is healthier to move on than to complain to people who enjoy that thing. It is irritating.

I was just watching somebody play a Sonic game and I just realized why the level design never gelled with me, and I figured that could be an interesting conversation topic.

ANYWAY...

Finally got around to trying Sonic and the Fallen Star. Great presentation, skewed a bit easy compared to the original games and Mania, but still fun. Only parts that really tested me were the final boss, the True Final Boss, and the last two special stages, the latter which veered a bit into Fake Difficulty, but still tamer than official games' final special stages.

We're a site centered around cataloguing patterns in media and a forum dedicated to discussing whether the ideas employed in them are good or bad. I don't think there's anything wrong with providing a different perspective on something most people don't really acknowledge- especially since it's spurring appreciation for that aspect of the series' level design being a strong suit.

That said, should note the Mario games design levels like that as well; usually it's via littering the sky with extras if you start the level with the appropriate flight powerup. It's just Sonic's momentum makes traversing backwards through levels significantly harder, due to all the slopes designed to build your speed going one way.

Its also why Mario has consistently stayed more popular than Sonic through the years, Mario games are way easier to control and explore than Sonic games and Pushover explained the reason.

Mario games tend to have a lower floor of entry than Sonic games do; since Mario is basically the basis where almost all platforming games are designed, that's what most are gonna be familiar with and Sonic explicitly and intentionally doesn't follow that template.

So if you're used to Mario games or games similar to Mario, Sonic is gonna feel completely alien to you.

I don't play too many Mario games, but I almost 100% completed Odyssey (couldn't beat Darker Side and a few sub-missions), but yeah, that's basically the deal. Mario games feel like they reward exploration, there's a little secret hidden in every corner. Kirby, too, I did 100% Forgotten Land and mostly beat tons of previous Kirby games.

But with Kirby and Mario, it feels like I can 100% every individual level on my first try, and when I don't, it's because I missed something or I made a mistake on a puzzle. With Sonic, it feels like the game is forcing me to move forward and never turn back, even if I feel like I missed something important or I want to explore the level more.

If I don't 100% a Kirby level first try, it's because I made a mistake, and I own up to that. Sonic levels feel like they're forcing me to make that mistake so I can't 100% them first try.

It's just a very different philosophy that never quite gelled with my personal tastes, and I could never quite nail what was the problem until now. Honestly, Sonic Frontiers might line up more with my style, since the hub world seems to encourage exploration.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 10th 2022 at 6:53:08 AM

Frontiers being designed like a bog standard open world game is probably why the game has way more attention on it than usual. Cuz people eat that shit up...

But man, I'm kind of irked that despite how it looks, it plays nothing like an actual Sonic game outside of the cyberspace levels. IM probably gonna like it, but I still feel its missing something.

Crash 4 is what Sonic should be striving to be like, but nobody gives a fuck about Crash and I'm like come oooonnnnn.

Tired of these Modern gamers and their shit taste :V

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Oct 10th 2022 at 10:04:12 AM

The formula for world structure Frontiers is adopting is the same one the LEGO adaptation games used for the longest time, funny enough. Doesn't feel too alien to me for it.

Then again, "nonlinear hub world with linear levels located within" is how the first Adventure was structured too. I'd be surprised if the thread didn't muse on that already, though.

Back in MY day, LEGO adaptation games didn't have all your fancy open sandbox playground hubs. We had a Mos Eisley Cantina and we liked it that way!

Yea but those are full levels. Thr Cyberspace levels are just small snippets of a level.

Think of a Sonic level like a a video game with multiple endings. Actually, Metroid makes for a decent example, I think. The first time you play, you probably aren't going to get the best ending. You won't know the best, most optimal path, even if you aren't trying to 100%. On your next playthrough you'll have a better idea of where to go and can do it a lot faster. On further playthroughs you'll not only have learned the path, but may even be able to innovate and form a better, faster one.

So Sonic levels are kind of like that, but with the improving and getting a better path built in to the level design itself.

There are Sonic games that play with the formula and make exploring a thing, too. Sonic 3 & Knuckles hides special stage rings in the levels, so that encourages trying a playthrough where you explore more to learn where they are. Games like Colors and Generations include Red Rings in the level, which aren't required for beating the game, but unlock bonus content or abilities. And if you focus on Stage Rankings, Colors actually puts a lot of focus on using the Wisp powers to build up score - there are very few stages in that game where just beating them as fast as possible can get you an S Rank.

I’m in the same boat, Yakuzu. The problem is that players aren’t really encouraged to replay games to get better. They can if they want to, but most games are designed with single playthroughs. Which is why a lot of people struggle to get into older Sega games.

These days, there's just too many games for a company to be able to count on a player not wanting to move to another game after one playthrough.