Puella Magi Madoka Magica

....how did she take episode 3?

Plus, it's cool your watching this with your mom. That not something we hear about very often to be honest.

One Strip! One Strip!

I also got my mom to watch the series+Rebellion a while back, with a vague content-warning that it's not a happy-go-lucky cartoon. She's not the openly-reactive type, but she did decide to also watch the dubbed movie versions (those were still on Netflix at the time) so I guess she must have liked it.

The one comment I remember was her jokingly saying "no one's made any bad decisions yet" a few episodes in. Dunno what she thought of episode 3 specifically, but the whole faustian-deal thing probably wasn't a surprise to someone who's read practically every sci-fi-fantasy novel in existence.

I've actually been watching it with her on and off since about late September or October and posting updates here.

And yeah, she was coming to like Mami when Episode 3 hit...

Halper's Law: as the length of an online discussion of minority groups increases, the probability of "SJW" or variations being used = 1.

And we're on Episode 9 already. My mother was not happy at both Sayaka and Kyoko's deaths, but she actually is beginning to enjoy the series for real now.

Both of us were actually disappointed at the relevation of Kyubey's energy harvesting. As I've mentioned before, it was almost a let-down for him just to be patiently filling up a quota for me when I first read the manga a few months ago, and fer her now.

Halper's Law: as the length of an online discussion of minority groups increases, the probability of "SJW" or variations being used = 1.

Personally, I liked that. It was appropriate for Kyuubey's detachment and makes her like a corporate middleman who doesn't care about the damage they do as they are only in it for the profits.

I've also always said I found Sayaka's fall to be beautiful. It's part of the reason I like and admire her so much.

The energy-quota thing is less horrifying than the previous couple of twists, but I think that's sort of the point—Kyubey isn't evil, exactly, he just doesn't understand human values, and is so much more advanced than us that he sees no reason to treat us as equals. Of course, his ambivalent exploitation kinda bites him in the furry little ass later on.

I'd argue that that's exactly the thing that makes Kyuubey evil myself. Seeing others as resources is evil in and of itself. In fact, I'd say her lack of emotions is already enough to make her evil as not being evil requires love of all, including those you have no reason to love.

But Kyuubey is callous instead of malicious, which I think makes her more compelling.

Honestly, it almost feels like the Oktavia fight is the emotional climax of the series. The first part of it, anyway.

Heart of Stone

Regarding the whole Kyubey thing, my personal expectation when first discovering the series was that he was some kind of true, Lovecraftian-style Eldritch Abomination who were manipulating the Magical Girls for some incomprehensible end.

Maybe the very comprehensible goals was the point: despite all the powerful magic and talk of how they lack emotions and are utterly devoted to their goals, the Incubators are ultimately Not So Different than humans in many respects.

Edited by SantosLHalper on Dec 10th 2019 at 12:33:37 PM

Halper's Law: as the length of an online discussion of minority groups increases, the probability of "SJW" or variations being used = 1.

Can someone pick up the phone? because I fricking called it!

BTW whata re the odds that Madokami will be released on Christmas?

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Dec 10th 2019 at 3:46:05 AM

Well, if they don't release Madokami for Christmas, they'll have to wait for Easter.

In all seriousness, it does seem likely, since this current holiday event weirdly ends less than halfway through December. Gotta fill that slot with something.

Honestly, I dislike looking at Kyubey as evil because I just think that's boring. Faustian Bargain stories are a dime a dozen. It's far more interesting to me if the idea is that Kyubey genuinely means well (on a large enough scale — he's trying to prevent the destruction of the universe... billions of years in the future) and genuinely thinks he's doing right by the girls by paying them for their services via their wishes, getting informed consent by honestly answering every question they ask, etc.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

I vastly prefer that too. An otherwise good fanfic I've been reading has a major flaw imo being that Kyubey is super scheming to the point he claims to have control over what powers they get from contracting and holds back or gives specific powers as suits his goals.

Edited by doineedaname on Dec 10th 2019 at 11:09:28 AM

The Incubator's being Not So Different from humans is something I liked, yes.

Kyuubey proved she never "meant well" when she admitted she deliberately manipulated Kyouko into getting herself killed in an attempt to force Madoka to contract against Madoka's desires.

It's impossible to "mean well" if you have no emotions anyway.

And preventing (actually delaying) the destruction of the Universe isn't a good goal anyway. The only one who benefits is herself. Everyone else is screwed over for her benefit. Besides, as I've indicated before, destroying the witchverse is a good act as it ends the suffering of the witches. Keeping it alive is inherently evil as it forces them to suffer more just so you get to breathe longer.

EDIT: Kyuubey having control of the powers the girls receive makes no sense though.

Another example of Kyuubey proving she doesn't mean well is basically all of Rebellion.

Edited by Sereg on Dec 10th 2019 at 2:14:38 PM

Reading the extra Oriko manga I really wish that she'd get her own anime to avoid the awful artwork of the manga. Or at least some focus in Magia Record. The manga art is so terrible.

You're missing the point I'm making entirely. Hell, we've had this conversation before. I'm not saying that Kyubey is a good person by human standards, I'm saying that Kyubey has their own set of standards that are different than ours, but they seem to adhere to regardless. I find it more interesting to view Kyubey through the lens of "they're operating on an entirely different set of ethical standards" rather than "they're bad".

It's less about the actual things Kyubey does and why, and more about how you choose to look at what that means about the character.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

It's midnight so what I'm saying is probably going to be stupid but here's my two cents.

Kyuubey wants to prolong the life of the universe. He's also kind of a right bastard about it. His being a necessary bastard doesn't make him any less of a bastard.

Edited by fredhot16 on Dec 10th 2019 at 10:43:16 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.

Thought regarding Sereg's Not So Different point (incoming Magia Record spoilers), I must point out that the Magius are similar in both methods and that they are attempting to fix a certain problem (in their case the whole Witch thing) that Yachiyo explicitly compared the group to everyone's "favorite" alien weasels.

Oh, I do like the fact that the Incubators have standards they stick to. I don't believe it makes any sense at all to believe that they do so for ethical reasons. After all, it's impossible for someone who has no emotions to want to be ethical. Emotions are the only reason to desire to behave ethically.

There's also the fact that I don't believe in moral relativism. I am a deontologist. If two different species have different standards of what is good and evil, the reason is because at least one of them is simply wrong.

We went over this last time, too. This is just incorrect. You can come up with a purely logical ethical standard that doesn't rely on emotions like empathy for anyone besides yourself. For example: no one should ever lie about anything, because the advantages of never being lied to outweigh the advantages of being able to lie to others. However, it's also logical to cheat the system if you can get away with it, so therefore liars are punished when caught, further incentivizing people to always be truthful.

You may or may not agree that this is a valid ethical system, but it definitely is an ethical system.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

So, if we assume that the above is true, how would one determine which of them is wrong (or if they're both wrong)? Presumably both of them think the other is wrong. If neither is right, then from the perspective of whoever's judging them from the outside, they are both wrong, and they likely both think the same about the outsider. Adding another observer looking down on all this only applies another layer to the problem. Short of asking God, there doesn't appear to be any way to know for sure who's right.

Moral objectivism—I don't know what else you could call that concept—doesn't work because there is no objective reference for morality. We can't smash subatomic particles together and discover a previously-unknown boson for the force of justice. We all want to believe that our idea of morality has to be the correct one or, at least, that there must be some way to be definitely right about a subjective issue. But there isn't. That's why we're still arguing in circles about this stuff thousands of years after the ancient Greeks got things rolling.

None of that means society can't improve on itself, though, or that we can't generally agree that something isn't right. Most people don't agree with Kyubey, after all. Maybe he isn't absolutely fundamentally wrong, but he'd still be shooed off the planet if he showed up in real life, and in effect that's kinda the same thing. The flexibility of morality allows us to decide for ourselves what's right and what isn't, and update those decisions as needed.

It is not an ethical system at all. Valid or invalid. As soon as practical considerations are brought in, it is disqualified from being an ethical system. Ethical systems are inherently things you have to stick to when it is NOT practical. That is what makes them ethical systems in the first place

Also, an absence of particles means nothing. There are no particles of sound. That doesn't stop it from being Something that can be objectively measured. Because it is not a substance. It is a behaviour. The behaviour is called altruism and is scientifically defined already.

"Love is just chemicals." -Woolie Madden

"Hey, you guys got any crack?"- Patrick Boivin

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.

I am aware of neurotransmitters. I have a serotonin deficiency myself. So what? How do they counter my points.