The New Touhou Character Alternate Interpretation Compendium!

The caduceus is associated with mercury in classical alchemy, and in some sects of alchemy, mercury = blood, since mercury is liquid metal and blood has lots of iron in it.

I sure said that!

Yet another testament to just how poor alchemists' grasp of chemistry is.

Eh, alchemists invented chemistry. Very very slowly. Mostly hindered by the fact that they tried to keep all their results secret. Most of them were extremely systematic though, even if their theories sounded absurd. Not like early medicine wasn't just as silly. Ultimately, they kept track of what worked and what didn't, which is what gives us all the data we have now.

edited 1st Aug '11 3:23:58 AM by Clarste

Like dosing patients with poison. To be fair, the poison WILL cure you of whatever afflicts you. Sadly, it will also cure you of everything else, like sanity. And breathing.

EDIT: Not that modern drugs aren't as toxic. Because they are. A lot of antidotes to poisons are also poisons in their own right, just poisons that have the opposite effect of the poison you're poisoned with.

Poison.

I should've brought this up during the Medicine discussion.

Actually, slightly on topic, would Medicine's poison work on youkai or vampires? Vampires aren't weak to any conventional poison, I think. Garlic's not poisonous. At least, I hope it's not. Otherwise I've poisoned an alarmingly large number of people.

Also, are vampires youkai, or are they something different?

edited 1st Aug '11 3:33:27 AM by asterism

Heart of Stone

Vampires are devils, which are youkai. It's an extremely generic term the way it's used in Touhou. According to Byakuren, even gods are youkai.

Did I just see Touhou Spanish Inquisition? Good lordy rule (9).

Pretty sure everything is a Youkai. If it isn't human, it's a youkai. Heck, even some of the things that could be considered human (such as Lunarians and Celestials) are considered youkai by at least someone. So vampires are youkai.

As for poisons, I wouldn't be surprised if they were immune to "traditional" poisons, due to the whole "undead" thing, but still weak to garlic because typical vampire weaknesses.

Come to think of it, how "undead" are vampires anyway? They don't seem to be all "moving corpses, walking flesh" like that jiangshi. They just seem to be unaging bloodsuckers.

OFF TOPIC:As funny as Neil X Reisen is, I still think the Moon War is something that never happened. Think about it, the Lunarians supposedly were able to wage war over a flag planting back in 1969, but don't show up at all when the same earth people begin to conduct moon tours in the Mary/Renko distant/near future? I still think it amounted to "The Lunarians bitched about it for a bit to themselves, but nothing actually happened. They pretend that there was a war (and claim credit for the Apollo 13 accident, citing it as "proof") because they want to brag about something."

Blood is amazing! Remilia write up soon. (Also, Pulse, I liked your finished write up)

edited 1st Aug '11 6:35:42 AM by Otherarrow

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The Lunarians sabotaged the Apollo project and discouraged future expeditions. In that sense, they won. Whatever it was though, it was almost certainly a cold war.

No, they claimed to have sabotaged the Apollo project (and if I recall, in real life, astronauts made it to the moon and walked around several times, both before and after Apollo 13. Some sabotage.) People can claim credit for anything, and admittingly, we only have their word that they did it. The fact that humanity eventually began to make moon tours in peace without so much as a peep from the Lunarians does cast the whole previous conflict into doubt. At least I think it does, though it is a YMMV thing.

Actually, I am not sure if they even did claim credit for sabotage. I think the main proof used for that for a while was one of Eirin's spellcards? Problem there? Eirin was with Kaguya in Eientei by the time of the Apollo missions. I think what happened is that Eirin heard about Apollo 13 somehow, maybe from Reisen after she arrived in Eientei, and decided to make a spell card themed after it. Do they go into any more detail on Apollo 13/the Moon War in any of the side materials focusing on the Lunarians?

ON TOPIC: Drat. Talking about the Lunarians instead of the real topic. Remilia write up still coming. I swear.

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Their goal was never to keep humans off the moon completely, it was to hide the existence of the Lunar Capital. Humans sending junk onto a barren wasteland is of no consequence to them.

Mostly though, I hate the prevalent emphasis on downplaying the achievements of the Lunarians that we have in this thread. Are they perfect? Of course not, they even admit so themselves. But why do we have to take every single thing they do and call is useless or stupid? ZUN gave us a fictional history of the moon for our entertainment, so why is that wrong compared to the history he also gave us for Gensokyo? Does everyone really hate the moon that much? Are you that stubborn that you deny everything you dislike? Yeah, we don't know exactly what happened, but we don't know anything for certain in Gensokyo. The history of the moon was given to us in profile narration, which makes it about as canon as Reimu being a miko. Are you going to doubt Reimu being a miko next?

Edited out pointlessness.

edited 1st Aug '11 8:11:48 AM by Clarste

A child's way of thinking?

The fandom has done some very not nice things to Remilia. No, I'm not talking about that, obviously. We won't be going into that at all in this thread hopefully.

I'm talking about her common portrayals. Her alternate character interpretations. I think its a result of EOSD being out the longest. But anyway, Remilia's more common portrayals do her no justice.

Remilia's in-game dialogue actually reminds me of a mix between Kaguya. First, she tells one of the PCs that she doesn't know how strong she is since she hasn't been allowed out often. Which implies that Sakuya was keeping her cooped up in the house?

"Sakuya, prepare my parasol, I'd like to go out."
"Impossible my lady. The sunlight is far too bright today."
"But Sakuyaaaaaaa, I haven't been out in a fortnight."
"I must insist you stay inside."
"Screw it, I'm covering up the sun with a scarlet mist. I can do that."
"Sure you can, my lady."

That is exactly the kind of thing Remilia would do. Her canon though processes seem to match her childish appearance and personality. She does things because she hasn't matured enough to know its silly or impossible or a bad idea.

Cover all of Gensokyo with a Scarlet Mist so she can go outside as much as she likes. Not the area right over her mansion. All of Gensokyo. I doubt she even intended to go on a systematic tour.
She has a rocket built so she can get to the Moon before Yukari. That's kind of childish right there. Then she throws a party inviting exiles from the Moon and Yukari, announcing the fact. That's the kind of thing a child would do. Its not enough to just one-up someone. There's no point if they don't know.
She makes Sakuya and Marisa fight Yorihime first because she wants to be the last boss but gets bored and fights her before Reimu.*

Then she has a pool built in her mansion because from her way of thinking, all the wonders of the moon sucked and the only thing really worth remembering is that they had large bodies of water.
Kidnap the fairy of spring so that you can have the first party.
There's an earthquake about to happen? What if we have the entire mansion floating above the ground?
This were-beast seems smart. Lets take her home and have her teach Flan.

And it works out because common-sense is a weakness in Gensokyo. A child's way of thinking works in a land where wordplay dictates what a person can do. At least if you have a vampire's level of power.

I think everyone hates the moon because SSIB was so mediocre. It just wasn't that great. CILR paints a much better picture but not as many people have read that. SSIB is a horrible first impression for both the mooninites and the Moon itself.

edited 1st Aug '11 9:40:44 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

As seen here, Magical Astronomy notes that the Lunar Capital is behind a magic border the same way Gensoukyou is. Even if the Apollo missions or potential future moon missions sent guys to the moon, they'd never find the Lunar Capital anyway, the same way a random hiker or traveler could never just stumble into Gensoukyou (Yukari fooling around aside).

I don't really mind the Lunarians, and I am sorry that I made you mad. However, I am mostly sick of this fanon "Moon War" crap, especially since the only real evidence that people ever use is something that makes no sense if you think about it. (the Eirin spellcard) If there is some other proof out there, then fine. Show it to me. I did deliberately ask if other material did mention Apollo 13/Moon War after all. (On a related note, Eirin totally did murder those guys. My bad!)

Now excuse me, I was in the middle of a Remilia minific. I hope that my next post will be that.

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It's all in Kaguya's profile. The outcome and therefore the way it was actually fought is specifically never told to us though.

Maybe the Lunarians sabotaged Apollo 1, in which case they are irredeemably evil.
Maybe it was a secret war that the government has kept from us, hiding the evidence at Area 51.
Maybe this is the Remilia discussion.
Maybe the "war" was a comedy of errors on both sides.
Maybe the Lunarians are behind the recent suspension of the shuttle program, in which case they are irredeemably evil.

Srsly, screw the Lunarians. If they were responsible for Apollo 13, then they have unleashed Tom Hanks upon the world and may their many gods have mercy on their souls for that.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

Moreover, if they DID sabotage the Apollo 13 mission, then they are not very good saboteurs. Not only did the astronauts survive, but to the best of my knowledge, they set the record for the furthest human beings have been from Earth. A record that I think is still standing.

Ahh, Remilia. She's perceptive and cunning, but also childish and spiteful. An eight year old supervillain.

Heart of Stone

...I don't see how letting the astronauts live hurts the Lunarians. It's not like they're trying to kill everyone or stop us from setting records (how exactly is that relevant?), they were just trying to stop humanity from colonizing the moon.

edited 1st Aug '11 8:39:54 AM by Clarste

Here is my minific about Remilia. It is probably crap. Unlike my previous fics, I didn't have a real plan, I just decided to start writing and hope that something happens, then go back and edit it into something manageable. I could just steal my/someone else's previous ideas, but that would be rude.

---

The Small Vampire Noblewoman

---

Remilia Scarlet gave a devious smile as she stood before the doorway of the Scarlet Devil Mansion. She had no plans for the day, everything was normal. Boringly normal. Remilia had decided the best way for her to spend her day was to grace a certain shrine maiden with her presence.

"Sakuya! Your master calls!" Despite the command, her voice had a playful tint to it. She was going to have at least some degree of fun today. Sakuya appeared right in front of her as if she was always there, something that always made Remilia chuckle to herself.

"Yes, Milady?"

"Fetch me my parasol Sakuya! The Hakurei Shrine shall be blessed by a visit from Remilia Scarlet!"

"...Do you wish for me to come along?"

"Of course! Who will hold the parasol over me as we sour through the skies? Or do you expect me to do it myself?"

"Of course not Milady."

With this, the two set foot outside the mansion, the maid holding the parasol over her master's small body, covering it completely in shade. As they walked through the garden, the redhaired gatekeeper rose her head from the flowers she was tending to.

"Going out Miss Remilia, Miss Izayoi?"

"Yes, Meiling, we are. Be sure that no one else intrudes on the Palace Scarlet while we are away."

"...And if it is that pesky Marisa? You know I can't deal with her and her Master Spark!"

"Oh, don't worry about her, my dear Meiling. She is one of the fun ones! Her and that shrine maiden*

."

"Uh, OK then. Have fun!"

"Oh, I will, I most certainly will!" Remilia began to chuckle to herself as she and Sakuya took flight. As the two of them flew over the Misty Lake, the various fairies gather there began to scatter and panic. Remilia began to playfully chase them, with Sakuya diligently flying by her side, holding the parasol over her and protecting her from the sun's rays.

"Foolish fairies. Always good for a laugh, wouldn't you say Sakuya?"

"Certainly Milady, although I wish you wouldn't risk yourself over such minor creatures."

"Do you underestimate me Sakuya?"

"Of course not Milady, I just fear for the sun."

With this, the two began to close in on the Hakurei Shrine. However, much to Remilia's displeasure, Reimu already had guests over, not including the oni and old turtle who were always freeloading. As Remilia and Sakuya began to land, Remilia noticed that they were talking about...things not at all worth her time.

"We should make a union! Miko union!"

"Did you come all the way here just to say that?"

"Just think, we could have regulated miko wages, and miko strikes and miko signs and miko..."

At this point, the two noticed the vampire and maid standing directly behind them. Remilia was not at all amused by the inane nonsense conversation she had arrived in the middle of, and the green haired shrine maiden could feel the glare Remilia was drilling into her back.

"...and I'll be miko gone! Bye Reimu!" And she flew off.

"I can't believe how happy I am to see you Remilia." Despite this, Reimu didn't sound grateful. Rather, she sounded bored. "Sanae keeps finding stupid reasons to fly over here and try to get me to join some stupid club of hers. First it was Miko Rangers, then it was Miko..."

"I do not care. You will stop talking about that other shrine maiden now. You will talk to me, about things of my choosing. Today, you shall treat Sakuya and I to tea.

"It's never donations from you, is it?" Reimu sighed and opened the door for her home. Remilia and Sakuya quickly sat down at the table, Sakuya folding the parasol in a flash of light. Reimu closed the door behind her and walked into the kitchen, where she began preparing the tea, noting in her usual bored voice: "Tea is preparing now. Please wait warmly until it is ready."

Remilia smiled contently at watching the shrine maiden toil at her command. She turned to Sakuya.

"Now, watching our former foe treat us as if we were graceful masters, doesn't that just make you feel accomplished?"

"If you insist Milady."

"Now that I think about it, the two of you have much in common, you know."

"Forgive my disagreement Milady, but I must protest. I pride myself on my devotion to you and my service as a servant of House Scarlet. This shrine maiden barely keeps her own shrine and home clean."

"I heard that!" Reimu quipped.

Remilia chuckled. "You sure seem easy to agitate today Reimu. Did you have a bad sleep? Do you need me to grace you with my nightly presence, tuck you in and nibble on your neck? Do you feel yourself worthy of such a gift?"

Remilia licked her lips. Reimu simply stared at her, then poured the tea into her cup. The rest of the day proceeded without incident, or note. Eventually, Remilia convinced Sakuya to tell Reimu about the strange blond girl who visited the Mansion some months before, how she insisted on seeing Remilia and how she sang praises on her and the mansion. Reimu speculated that it was just Yukari fooling around again. After they were done talking about that, Remilia and Sakuya rose from their chairs and left as suddenly as they appeared.

By the time they returned to the mansion, the sun was already starting to go down. Remilia walked through the gate and into the mansion proper as if she had just returned from victory in battle. As soon as the door closed behind them, Sakuya disappeared, already going off to finish the chores that had piled up while she was gone. Such a dutiful maid. I am proud of myself for that one. Remilia thought to herself.

Remilia was still in a good mood, so she decided to personally descend to the basement. She didn't visit the library today, although she could hear Patchouli chewing out the little devil for throwing her new arcane tomes of snake magic at her. No, today Remilia decided to visit someone else who she hadn't visited in some time. She arrived at a worn wooden door at the end of a dark hallway. She gave a elegant knock.

"Who's there?"

"Who's...Do you not remember the knock of the Lady of House Scarlet?"

"Who?"

"...it's your sister Flan. Can I come in?"

"Oh, Remilia? Sure!"

The door opened, and the cheerful blonde girl leaped out and pushed Remilia to the ground, hugging her. Remilia grimaced. This was unbecoming of a noblewoman.

"Do...Do you know how strange this looks?"

"I'm just happy!"

"Do you intend to let go?"

"Nope! Can't a sister hug her sister? Can't a snake wrap around it's prey? Snakes bug me."

"Focus Flandre, focus! I am not a snake!"

"Oh I know that. You don't bug me. You are not a bug!"

"Snake."

"Snakes aren't bugs."

"You are doing this on purpose aren't you?"

"Maybe~"

Flandre let go of Remilia and the both of them stood back up. Remilia sighed as Flandre gleefully circled around her. At least she is happy.... Remilia thought to herself. Flandre had always been the one thing Remilia worried about the most, and if she was content, the rest of the world would soon follow.

"So, Flandre, mind gracing your beloved sister about how you have been fairing since my last visit?"

"Oh, I thought you'd never ask! Well, me and the devil got yelled at by Patchs the other day for..."

---

...I didn't expect it to be that long. And it kinda doesn't go anywhere. She and Sakuya go to Reimu's, have tea, come back, then Remilia visits Flandre. It doesn't have a recurring motif, a real plot, or any of that. Very slice of life-ish. Only not nearly as good. I tried to recapture the "hammy Remilia" from "The Mansion Calls", but in such a casual, nothing really going on story, it was hard to do. The Reimu part was going to be longer (basicly, before ordering Reimu to make them tea, Remilia would make Reimu sing a song praising her on threat of destroying the shrine. She would then tell Sakuya to do it anyway, and then I realized I was not going anywhere with that.)

edited 1st Aug '11 11:28:05 AM by Otherarrow

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Upon consideration, I'd imagine that it's actually quite in character for the moon to leave the astronauts alive. After, the people in charge of that would have been the Watatsukis, who specifically left Urashima alive back in the day. It's just in their character to spare earthlings while keeping them out. It would have been odd if they hadn't.

And logically speaking, you can't use future events (the moon tours) as evidence for anything since they happen in the future and we haven't seen the moon's side of that. Maybe they decided it didn't matter anymore? That literally has nothing whatsoever to do with the Apollo war. Why was that even brought up?

edited 1st Aug '11 9:50:13 AM by Clarste

It's okay. Remilia's a ham.

'TREMBLE IN MY PRESENCE, MORTAL!'

'Nice to see you too, Remilia...'

Also, probably best to note the difference between Rin Satsuki and Rin Kaenbyou. Good thing she's called Orin, yes?

Heart of Stone

Well, mostly it's a good thing that there's no one called Rin Satsuki in the series. Datamined non-characters are still non-characters.

The Moon War apparently started when Neil Armstrong came and planted a flag. The crew didn't look for the Lunar Capital (which would be impossible for them to find) and didn't try to fight the Lunarians. They just planted a flag, walked around, and collected some moon rocks. This was apparently a big enough offense/threat to the Lunarians that they declared war and (supposedly) began sabotaging later moon missions. (Missions that, in fact, had no threat to them) I think that "sending tons of people to the moon on a regular basis for tours" would ding higher on the Lunarian threat scale than the Apollo missions did, which is why I brought it up.

You say "Oh, maybe the Lunarians don't care, we don't know their side of the story" We don't know the human's side of the story for the first Moon War either. Maybe there was actually a war. Maybe what the Lunarians claimed was a war was just things going exactly the same as they did in our history, and they were just overreacting.

I'm sorry if I made you mad. This "Moon War" is something that has always bugged me to no end, and now that I know more, I still can't make sense of it.

As far as Remilia is concerned, the first one is Rin Something or Other, and the second is That Satori Girl's Cat.

edited 1st Aug '11 10:10:55 AM by Otherarrow

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The moon tours are post-Moon War. It has nothing whatsoever to do with and cannot have anything to do with it. Because it's in the future. Maybe they had another Moon War in the future, maybe not, but it has nothing to do with anything.

That's actually what I've always assumed, and what makes the most sense in the context of the series. That doesn't mean they were overreacting though. Why would it? That's the whole point of a Masquerade isn't it, to have a fantasy world that looks exactly like ours on the surface but have a bunch of fantastic stuff happening underneath the surface? Isn't Gensokyo part of that too? Why the double standard just because you...

Fuck, I'm angry again.

edited 1st Aug '11 10:20:27 AM by Clarste

Still off subject but I always had the so called "lunar war" as just Lunarians being paranoid. They thought when the astronauts landed, it was an act of war, and when they left, they claimed it a "victory" thinking they scared them off.

ON TOPIC: Have we discussed Priere yet?

Doing nothing is a choice.

That is what I think happened, if anything.

I never saw that before. Watching!

The point I was trying to make is since the Lunarians declared war over something as harmless as the Apollo Missions, they'd probably would have done worse over the tours, however there is no implication that they even notice it (which made me think that likewise nothing happened with the Apollo missions). It's just where my train of thought went, and it probably is just nonsense. Maybe it only makes sense to me, ignore it if it bothers you that much. I'm sorry.

EDIT: Wait wait wait, you got yourself mad because I implied that the Lunarians were overreacting? If "declaring war because some guys dared to come by and collect rocks" isn't overreacting, then I don't know what is! And how does Gensoukyou fit into this? The Moon Tours are more relevant to this than Gensoukyou. Gensoukyou is sealed off from the outside world. It doesn't affect the history of the outside world. The Moon War, due to it's direct involvement with the Apollo Missions and how it is implied that the Lunarians caused Apollo 13, however, does affect the outside world. It's like bitching at me for being OK with apples when we were talking about oranges. I tried to be nice, I kept apologizing for making you mad, but it is clear to me now that you are making yourself mad and are looking for a fight with anyone who dares disagree with you. I'm going to back away from this.

edited 1st Aug '11 10:36:25 AM by Otherarrow

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I realised I haven't said anything about Septette for the Dead Princess. Notably, it borrows from a piece of classical music in the intro (Beethoven's Piano Sonata no. 8, to be precise), which of course makes it sound very classical. It sounds quite baroque to me actually. It is one of two themes that always remind me of organs*

, an instrument which I think features in the SWR remix (awesome).

That's not to say Septette's not exclusively orchestral. Here's something more metallic. Here's an orchestra. Because orchestras make everything awesome. And here's the Beethoven piece. Remilia must be a fan.

edited 1st Aug '11 10:37:24 AM by asterism

Heart of Stone

Who says they didn't do anything? Just because the outside world didn't notice anything happening doesn't mean they didn't do anything. Maybe they made a fake moon that all the tours go to, I don't know. Use your imagination. If the outside world noticed that the moon did anything that would mean they failed since the entire point is to hide their existence. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And either way it has nothing to do with the Apollo Moon war because it's a different event. Maybe they're all dead in the future? There are a billion possible answers, and none of them matter. Because it hasn't happened yet.

"War" doesn't always mean the same thing. They declared "war" because there was a threat, if somewhat small, of humans discovering the Lunar Capital. It's got a barrier around it, but it's not completely impermeable. The more humans come to collect rocks the more threat there is. This is common sense. To think otherwise is... Thus, they remove the threat by doing whatever it is they do that stops the Apollo project (invisible moon rabbits sneaking around on Earth? I don't know, I don't care. Use your imagination). Just because they call it a war doesn't mean they're lining up and shooting moon-rifles at each other. Given that the ultimate goal is to pretend that they don't exist, it's completely obvious that the humans would have no idea what happened. If they did, then the war automatically fails right there. So the fact that it looks exactly the same as real life means that they succeeded, and it's not an overreaction because there might have been another outcome if they hadn't acted. We can only see the result, but that doesn't mean they didn't help it end up this way.

You would not believe how many insults I had to delete while writing this. Yes, my tone is overly aggressive, but from my perspective you're being willfully ignorant of the (fictional) circumstances.

And Gensokyo does affect history because it exists. Fictional things go there to hide. Gods that survived into the modern world suddenly leave. It's impossible for it to have no effect, but they intentionally minimize its effect. They don't exact broadcast themselves. It takes maintenance to keep the barrier up. That's exactly what the moon is doing.

edited 1st Aug '11 10:59:14 AM by Clarste