The Order of the Stick

So, um, Haley didn't only find the trap, she disabled it, which is just as hard. Except, no, she bypassed it, which is +10 harder.

So is there any way, based on what we've said, for Haley to make a DC48 Disable Device check? Especially given how confident she was?

Edited by HeraldAlberich on Jan 22nd 2021 at 11:41:17 AM

The Divination is a nice twist, it avoids the viewing being discovered by True Seeing, because they’re not seeing anything fake, they just don’t realise that what they’re seeing is very far away.

It’s an optical illusion using magic, not a magical illusion.

Edit: The trap seems to auto-reset, so I’d argue she didn’t bypass it, she disarmed it, but it then reset itself. A bypass seems to be when you reset the trap yourself after disabling it.

Also she’s probably been dumping skill points into Disable Devise since the dessert, so if we assume max rank, a reasonable intelligence bonus, masterwork tools and maybe a magic item boost it seem manageable at her level.

Edited by Silasw on Jan 22nd 2021 at 4:57:35 PM

It makes me feel a bit better, but I still don't feel good about it.

Let me illustrate my problem with this. This is some pretty high-end magic; well beyond what Serini could've done by herself. She would've had to hire a wizard to help. So once the trap was complete, this Wizard would've been completely unable to perceive his own handiwork, no matter how hard he looked for it. And it's not like they're magically invisible or anything, they're just subtle enough that you need a trained eye to spot them. So well that you can't see them even if you, personally, were carving those runes into the floor five minutes ago.

I am (grudgingly) willing to accept that this is indeed how the rules work. But that doesn't mean a have to think it's how the rules should work, and nor do I have to think it's a good idea to include that in the comic in any way other than 'poking fun at the places where the rules contradict intuition reality' kind of context.

So the thing about Dwaves makes me feel a bit better, because it opens up the possibility that Serini could've hired a Dwarven Wizard and avoided that particular bit of silliness. But I still think it's a rule that leads to fundamentally absurd interactions.

The Wizard didn't design the trap, though; they just provided the spell.

I can write code for a smart toaster without having the slightest idea how to engineer a physical toaster.

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Yeah, that's not how magical trap building works- there's no Rogue-only component to that, it's just casting the spell and paying the relevant gp/xp cost. It's 100% achievable by a wizard working alone.

Edited by Gilphon on Jan 22nd 2021 at 12:00:33 PM

I think this raises the question of when a trap becomes a trap. Magical traps have special rules around their detection, so how does that mesh with the fact that spellcasters are going to be the ones making the traps?

Still it’s not absurd for spellcasters to be able to magically hide things so well that they can’t find them. Normal humans at times hide things so well that they can’t find them.

The rules are written under the assumption that the character in question has an adversarial relationship with the trap—they are encountering it in a hostile setting, don't want it to go off, and do want to get past it. The trap's creator doesn't fall under that. Even if a Wizard casts the trap, then the next day goes on an adventure and encounters an identical trap cast by someone else, and can't perceive it, that doesn't mean they can't go back and find their own trap. You're right, that would be silly. So just houserule it otherwise; it seems an obvious exception to me.

I was on the other side; expecting that disabling the trap was a trigger for a secondary trap/spell.

Hard pass on that. This ends up like the semantics between an ambush and a trap. Generally speaking, characters remember their past actions.

Edited by crazysamaritan on Jan 22nd 2021 at 12:11:40 PM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

@Tobias, re:Haley keeping Search maxed - At least as of the time the gang reached Girard's home. Haley admitted that she hadn't been keeping on top of her Search ranks. It's conceivable that she put more focus into Search in any levels she gained since then, granted.

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Or- just hear me out- you could instead houserule so that instead of magic traps being arbitrarily imperceptible to anyone who hasn't spent a few months bumming around a bad neighbourhood, Rogues just get a bonus to a skill check that anyone can attempt.

Like how they did it in Pathfinder.

Phew. Nice to have the comic back. We should always have someone note it's been a while since it updated like that.

Invokes good luck I'd say.

We're pretty close to learning everything here. I'm looking forward to how things go.

One Strip! One Strip!

Hmm... why is the dead-end floor greenish? If the floor they're on is yellowish from lack of use, this one should be too.

Worldbuilding is fun, writing is a chore

Yellow is the natural color of the real cave. Green is the natural color of the fake cave. The entrance to the real cave has been colored green to hide the ruse.

It’s possible that the natural floor colour in the entrance area was changed to match the floor in the fake dungeon, as that would be the simplest way to make the floors match.

Also I just noticed, in panel 20 we can see the edge of the teleport effect triggering as Blackwing flies back to his hiding spot.

Does anyone know what's up with the website? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html (i.e., the link on the "newest comic" arrow) is taking me to page 1222, not the current page 1223.

Works fine for me. Try clearing your cache?

It’s also working fine for me.

I think I did some estimates a while back assuming that the teleportation effect is basically a bunch of tilted teleportation circles and concluded that if Haley maxed out her search skill since Girard's Gate she'd have 20+ in Search and a trap with a 9th level spell is DC 34, so she'd get it ~1/4 of the time. I don't think she used the bypass-without-disarming option necessarily, but her DD is a max of 24, so it's doable.

Redcloak, if he was level 20 and had maxed cross-class ranks in search, would have 11+int to search. Therefore he'd have 21+ after casting find traps. However, it's staggeringly unlikely that he does have maxed-out cross class ranks in a skill that only gets used for this sort of adventuring technique. Honestly, he probably has few to none and not level 20, and would then need like +5 int to then get +9 from the spell and have a 1/20 chance to detect it.

Ergo, they didn't bring a rogue and couldn't find the trap.

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tl;dr If your adventuring party does not include a rogue, you are wrong.

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However valid it may be to proclaim that trap finding in 3.x is stupid and should be changed, Rich is using those rules, at least as a baseline. So can we cut it with all the preaching?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

It's an attempt to enforce party diversity despite the fact that magic-users can do everything. I'm not saying they're wrong to do so, I just think that narrowing the focus so that one wizard can't cover most of the party roles by themselves is a better way to do it.

Edited by Discar on Jan 22nd 2021 at 1:49:59 AM

...Not really seeing the “preaching” that “justifies” a curt attitude like that.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.

like this

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

...Yeah, I still don’t see that as “preaching”. Or even very annoying.

He’s stating why he dislikes a thing in a calm and reasonable manner.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.

I thought it was a bit silly when Gilphon referred to a major plot hole where there isn't one, but yeah, complaining isn't preaching. If people want to complain, they can, and this is an appropriate space. Asking people to stop complaining after they made a complaint, and elaborated on it specifically when others responded to them, strikes me as pointless at best.

Anyways, Blackwing is an excellent character.

Edited by RaichuKFM on Jan 22nd 2021 at 5:03:05 AM

Mostly does better things now. Key word mostly. Writes things, but you'll never find them. Or you can ask.