The Order of the Stick

Roy's sword disappeared when it crossed the magic floor line, so no they can't leave. Where exactly the tip of the sword went is a mystery though.

If the yellow floor tunnel was the "real" cave interior, Redcloak would have seen it, right?

I sense Epic-level interdimensional shenanigans going on here.

I half wonder if part of Minrah's and Durkon's section was specifically to give Redcloak a reason to use True Seeing here and now to establish this part of the dungeon's trick

Edited by sgamer82 on Dec 19th 2020 at 6:34:26 AM

I'm very curious what the explanation for this is. I'm also a bit perplexed by the mechanics of this thing. The facts: We have an invisible barrier marked by a line on the ground. The barrier is also invisible to detect magic, true seeing, etc otherwise Team Evil probably would have detected it. Despite the Epic Magic that would likely be involved the barrier's presumed source can be discerned and disabled easily by a non-epic Rogue. Curiously the barrier also seems to work like a one way mirror. Roy can swing into it but it's clear his sword doesn't just harmlessly pass through. Yet at the same time the Order can see the other side. We can also presume that the visual effect of someone vanishing is only discernible on the inner side. Otherwise Redcloak would notice something funny happening when Xykon steps over.

So on one level this thing seems crazy powerful. It can avoid detection by epic level casters and doesn't even make it seem like anything is amiss when it teleports you. On the other hand it's trivial to bypass for a somewhat competent Rogue. Serini was a Rogue so she must have realized this. In which case this probably isn't the only defense but if it isn't then what else does she have in store for them?

Edited by Kostya on Dec 19th 2020 at 9:54:51 AM

Should note that only Rogues are capable of detecting traps by default in 3e.

But logically this trap does have some kind of magical effect. Unless it isn't really a trap? Maybe it's just a permanently open portal that Haley momentarily deactivated. Even so the location shifting seems pretty magical. How on earth has neither caster picked up on this?

@BOOXMOWO Well, it's really unclear now. The floor color change and Redcloak's true seeing suggest the Order are in the seamless-unnoticeable-teleportation tunnel, while the dungeons were the real tunnel all along. But that brings us back to the impossibility of all these dungeons coexisting, and it doesn't make much sense that disarming the "trap" results in activating the portal.

Edited by Aetol on Dec 19th 2020 at 4:00:18 PM

So, Team Evil's fatal flaw: relying too much on magic. Haley could detect the trap, but Redcloak's True Seenig couldn't.

Edit: it's still weird that Oona, a rogue, couldn't detect it either. Probably she didn't even bother. But for all dungeons? Weird.

Edited by petersohn on Dec 19th 2020 at 4:02:58 PM

I think Oone might know, but not really care much. And maybe presumes nobody else does either.

Oona seems to be a ranger, not a rogue, so she wouldn't have the Trap Sense to see the tiny runic line.

This trap is definitely very weird. The fact that it activates upon being disarmed is mechanically bizarre.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 19th 2020 at 7:07:54 AM

Isn't Oona a Ranger?

Presumably by the time she (or some other rogue, if there are any) noticed it, the bugbears had been using the dungeons for a while with no incident, so she concluded it doesn't do anything and wasn't worth looking at more closely.

It could also be that Haley's Search skill is significantly higher than any Rogues available to Oona's tribe. Still, I am firmly of the opinion that the "traps" are a magical portal that transports whoever crosses them to another place where the "dungeons" are built, and that deactivating them allows people to not be teleported and access the real path.

The mystery is how that works without several powerful spellcasters realizing it. Sure, you can play the "it's Epic magic" card, but that's a Hand Wave, not an explanation.

Rich is under no obligation to explain how the mechanical systems of his world work, of course. We expect that because it's based on D&D, but he's complained in the past how it hampers storytelling.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 19th 2020 at 10:18:49 AM

I don't think so. The immediate change in floor composition after you cross the line seems to indicate that it's the Order who've been transported somewhere else while Team Evil is crossing into the actual Monster Tube that's been dug out into the cave.

Roy's sword makes things especially weird. You would think that they'd be able to cross back over the line and exit the cave, but when Roy swung on Xykon, his sword did not exit the warpy-field in front of Xykon. Xykon did not see (or, given his proximity, feel) a huge greatsword blade come straight out of thin fucking air in front of him, as one would expect him to no matter which way the field works.

So what happened there? Did Roy's sword exit the field in a different tunnel? And, if so, does that mean there is a genuinely correct door? That'd be weird. Or is there some other exit from the true path, somewhere else in the world, that you pass through once you cross the field from this side?

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 19th 2020 at 7:20:11 AM

There should be a logical explanation why Haley could detect the trap but nobody else could, otherwise it's a plot hole. If we are guessing it and find something that might be plausible, but there is no indication in the comic itself that it's indeed the case, it's still a plot hole. So until stated otherwise, we should assume that any magic works accodning to DND rules.

The different floor color could be simply explained if nobody's been in the "real" tunnel for decades. That said, if you were making a teleportation trap like this and you wanted to keep up the illusion, why wouldn't you take pains to make the false paths look as real as possible? You wouldn't bother with that for the true one.

Roy's sword missing is the hardest part to explain.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 19th 2020 at 10:23:37 AM

Might it be explained by a high-level mechanical trap trigger that blocks a magical effect when triggered (or rather, as long as it is engaged)? That way, True Seeing and Detect Magic and all that stuff wouldn't find anything, because the magic would be blocked. But when the mechanical trigger is disarmed, the mechanism that blocks the magic stops working and the teleportation happens.

This would explain why Roy and company can see Xykon et al. without Team Evil detecting any magic - the magic allowing the viewing is on their side of the teleportation, so there actually isn't any left to detect at the cave entrance.

It's not so different from a portcullis or similar mechanical "locked until disarmed" contraption.

EDIT: Oh, and Roy's sword is going nowhere, because the way back out is still being blocked by the mechanism. Not a perfect explanation, I know, but I don't think we need too many additional assumptions for it to work.

Edited by Jernaugh on Dec 19th 2020 at 7:26:25 AM

Where are people getting that Haley tripped the trap? The implication seems clear to me that this magical teleportation field is always active. Haley momentarily disabled it which is why the Order didn't teleport. Xykon and the others are the ones triggering it not the Order.

Two reasons.

1. The changing floor color indicates that the Order are not in the same tunnel they were in when they were on the other side of the runes. The fact that the stone of the floor changes as you step over the line but remains continuous if you don't disarm the trap indicates the the actual tunnel is the one Team Evil is in.
2. There are countless doors and runes inscribed at the entrance to each of them, and all of the doors and all of their secret portals need to be able to bring Serini (or whoever else figures out the trick) to this same one place.

The Order is in a special tunnel secretly accessible from all doors, that is visually different from the tunnel that exists inside any of the doors. And apparently if you pass back through the field the other way, you do not exit out into the tunnel you entered from.

EDIT: Further, a magic field that is always active is super-detectable by the means available to Redcloak and Xykon. Redcloak right now has True Seeing active, which would have allowed him to see the Order if they were present in the physical tunnel but concealed by a magic effect.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 19th 2020 at 7:35:43 AM

My guess regarding Roy's sword is that when the portal is deactivated, it still acts as a "screen" that transmits image and sound (one-way), which is why the Order could see and hear Team Evil. The sword just passed through that screen and didn't hit anything because there isn't anything behind it, probably just more tunnel. (And maybe the gate is that way, to make it even harder to find even if you do find the "trap")

1. I just took that as a visual motif to match the difference clear to the reader. If it was the other way around people would question why they didn't notice the changing floor.

2. I'm not following the logic with 2. A more likely scenario to me is that all the tunnels eventually meet at some central chamber where the gate is. If the Order got sent somewhere it would imply the gate is not in this part of the world which is definitely not what we've been lead to believe. It also makes more sense for Team Evil to be getting teleported around because if all the dungeons were physically behind that wall there wouldn't be enough space for them.

@Edit: Then why didn't Redcloak notice anything just now? He saw Xykon pass through. If the magic is detectable that would tip him off. It's pretty clear that something about this trap bypasses magical detection no matter which of us is right.

Edited by Kostya on Dec 19th 2020 at 10:41:18 AM

Where are people getting this idea that it would be impossible for the dungeons behind each door to exist, architecturally? Because that keeps getting passed around like it's a clue when it's not. That's something that someone made up and then everyone started propagating. It's a fake clue.

These doors aren't embedded in some flat structure five inches wide with nothing on the other side. They're holes in a canyon dug into the earth. If it's so difficult to imagine each door having its own distinct dungeon behind it, just picture straight tubes filled with segmented chambers that have monsters in them. And then there is still plenty of space in the totality of the planet's crust to add a bit more complexity, given the crescent moon shape of the wall the doors are carved into.

You guys are drawing conclusions from a piece of information that isn't actually a datapoint, has never once been suggested to be a datapoint, and was just made up at some point by someone with no imagination.

Because Xykon didn't pass through anything. Xykon entered the tunnel as normal. It's the Order who are somewhere else due to a magical effect that was only active while the trap was disarmed.

They can see the entrance of the tunnel they entered (although, bizarrely, cannot return to it apparently), but for Xykon and Redcloak, it's just the same old monster tunnel that's always been behind these doors.

If the Order was in the true tunnel that's behind that door, then Redcloak would have seen them (and the different floor composition) clear as day the instant he stepped inside. He did not, because there is nothing to see. The magic effect isn't active (at least, not on his end), and the Order isn't in the tunnel behind the door.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 19th 2020 at 8:07:39 AM

I wonder if this is specifically a trap for high level rogues, rather than the correct path. Given what Serini's defenses could be, putting such a trap fairly early makes sense.

To be fair, Roy has commented on how weird the clustered together dungeons are. "They're so close together, they'd have to be basically a straight hallway to avoid running into one another." But to be fair the other way, yeah, it is possible for them to be straight hallways. And I think Redcloak, who unlike Roy has been inside the dungeons, would have noticed if they were physically incapable of being inside the canyon wall.

....you know, this might actually explain why our invisible mystery dudes went after the Paladins instead of Team Evil.

Perhaps with the way the trap was set up, Team Evil never had a chance to find and de-activate the trap, and were therefore no threat in spite of there power. Meanwhile, O-chul and Lien may have had a way to notice and de-activate trap similar to Haley depending on how it works, and as such were the bigger concern.

It also have been that they were afraid the Paladins might do something (by accident) that would lead Team Evil to figuring out the trap.