Avatar: The Last Airbender

I'm not follow your train of logic here - why in there world would there have to be soulless kids around?

But regardless, both series were always very obviously and clear on destiny being a big thing. It might not always be clear forever, but that it's a thing isn't something we're meant to debate.

Edited by LSBK on Dec 24th 2020 at 3:27:34 AM

We saw that when Avatars died they are immediatly reborn as a child, not at the start of pregnancy. Assuming a soul can´t be in multiple places at once that means the soul went into the new body at the point of death. That means that either the deaths are destined to be to ensure a soul for the newborn or if death can be prevented that newborn doesn´t have the soul it´s supposed to have ergo soulless child (or admitedly a stillbirth).

I must have ignored the parts about destiny being a thing...Which is not unlikely, i hate the concept as it renders all actions and decisions meaningless. How could Sozin for example be judged as evil if an external force forced him to do what he did? The same force that made Aang stop what Sozin started. Destiny is a dick.

Or, if the Avatar Spirit doesn't go in that baby, another soul waiting in line for reincarnation would.

Now I’m imagining a queue of human spirits impatiently hovering about waiting for an embryo to reach the arbitrary threshold where the spirit develops so they can jump in, but then suddenly Raava cuts the line and claims Avatar Spirit Privileges.

Good, because that's exactly what I was picturing, too.

One thought I had concerning the future of the Avatar-verse:

Looking at several antagonists throughout the franchise - Unalaq, Yun, Tokuga - and the greater presence of Spirits in the world, perhaps there will be something of an arms race involving people fusing with Spirits for power.

[joke here about Spirit Bombing Dragonball style]

It may just be that the moment of birth is when a body receives its soul.

Or it could be that the sound of a baby crying immediately after Wan died isn't meant to be taken super-ultra-mega-literally, like a child was born with Wan's soul right there on that battlefield within earshot of Wan's corpse at the exact millisecond that he died. And is instead a bit of poetic artistry signaling that Wan's soul reincarnated after his death and thus began the Avatar Cycle.

There are other options than "If not used as a host for the Avatar, children are born as vacant, soulless vessels!" or "The Avatar kills a child and takes their body for their own!"

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 24th 2020 at 8:06:09 AM

I think you don't necessarily needs to reincarnate as another person, in belief systems where reincarnation is a thing.

You can reincarnate as an animal, an insect, or even a god.

Latter is not actually the ideal because the point is to reach Enlightenment and escape the cycoe of reincarnation, mind you, and becoming a god comes with a lot of perks that makes it harder to truly reach the level of detachment the state of Nirvana demands.

Mind you, I'm no specialist or scholar, and there's likely unending debate over all that among believers.

There was a cut plotline about Gyatso (a non-Avatar) reincarnating as Momo.

My impression is that souls generally don't reincarnate instantly. There might be a bit of a lag time. Maybe they do some kind of purgatory first? Who knows. This kind of explains Aang coming back in the end of Book Two. He was actually dead but his soul didn't fly away to another body right away. Katara managed to yank it back into his body. My impression is that under normal circumstances Raava "cuts the line" so to speak and instantly puts the Avatar spirit in the next eligible baby of the appropriate Nation.

Edited by Kostya on Dec 24th 2020 at 11:18:05 AM

I think in Buddhism they do spend some time in Hell, well, one of the levels of Hell, I thinkn there's like eight of those, anyway, you need some time repenting to clear away your karma before you reincarnate.

It's not really the same thing as the Christian idea of Purgatory, but it's analogous to it, but the way the show shows Wan being reborn instantly makes me think that part either doesn't apply to Avatars, or just doesn't exist in the Avatar-verse in general.

I thought Naraku was only for those with bad Karma. Good Karma gets you brought back as a person.

I'm imagining Similar to what Sal said, except the late term embryo already has a soul, and Raava/the Avatar spirit/soul just joins with the most available one around birth.

It's Naraka, right? Naraku was the villain from Inuyasha.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Dec 24th 2020 at 11:43:03 AM

It's not that there are eight levels of hell more so there are six levels of existence. I'm using knowledge I haven't used since my last family funeral, but the six I remember are gods, man, animals, hell, hungry ghost, and something close to gods which I don't remember.

Each realm has their own perks and disbenefits. You might be a god, but you grow attached to the perks of being one.

Ensoulment is an interesting topic. There are cultures who believe that souls are formed at the moment of conception, 40-ish days after, or even is present at conception and needs a certain time to make the body that body.

It's Naraka, yes, though I assume Naraku was named after the term.

You're right, it is Naraka. Naraku is the term in Shin Megami Tensei 4. My mistake.

Pretty much all we can safely say regarding reincarnation in Avatarland is it happens; and when the Avatar does it their next life begins in a person born of the next tribe, within a year of the previous Avatar’s death.

Anything beyond that requires unsupported speculation and logical leaps, or very literal readings of things that either make more sense as symbolism or otherwise lack any context regarding the passage of time.

If Avatar #2 and Aang are born at literally the exact respective moments Wan and Roku croaked, then everything is predestined and meaningless; the universe decided genocides need to happen; fuck the Force Kreia was righ-

Ahem, sorry getting carried away there.

Hearing a baby cry after Wan breathed his last and Raava left him just signifies for the audience he reincarnates into a baby. It could be that moment exact moment, yes; but it could be two weeks later; or even nine-ish months later. It’s there for artistic and emotional effect, like how a baby crying being the first thing the audience hears during the climax of FMA: Brotherhood after (tagged just in case someone here somehow doesn’t know already) Father’s nation-wide transmutation gets undone. The baby isn’t literally the first thing to wake up, we just hear it first to get punched in the feels with hope.

When Roku dies, he does so at midnight, and we see Aang’s birth with sunlight streaming in through the window - and more importantly, from Aang’s point of view. It doesn’t mean he was born right then and there, it means that’s what he saw when he first opened his damn eyes and somehow was able to see stuff way earlier than real babies can see stuff. The Avatar doesn’t see shit in the womb, so we can’t say if it’s immediately after or some time later when Aang opens his eyes.

There is an argument that because Roku died it night, it could possibly be morning in whichever temple Aang was born in. Maybe, but Sokka’s Ex moving in front of the Sun over the Fire Nation turned off Firebending everywhere on the planet, and a chunk of ice streaking through the sky made fire benders everywhere Super Saiyan for the same eight minutes. So, the position of stuff in space with relation to the curvature of the planet unreliable.

Yue wasn’t born without a soul, she was just stillborn and a moonfish bonded with her so she could have a life, because that shit sucks, and it had the power and compassion to do so.

If she was “destined” to have been the Avatar if Aang didn’t take an ice nap, that means either Aang would’ve survived the genocide only to be merc’ed way earlier than the Avatar’s usual lifespan, or he fucking dies as a kid, three other Avatars also die as kids and either the genocide is less complete but the next Air Avatar dies as a kid as well; or things just get weird the next time next the cycle hits Air.

Sorry for the ramblyness of this, had almost no sleep and holidays with my family means alcohol starts early.

Edited by TheAirman on Dec 24th 2020 at 3:24:46 AM

I don't see why they have to be born at the exact instant. It could just be they go into the next eligible baby. Presumably they'd be born fairly close although they may not reincarnate right then and there.

That seems the easiest way for it work, yeah

Edited by TheAirman on Dec 24th 2020 at 3:10:00 AM

The tag isn’t working.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 24th 2020 at 1:21:29 AM

Thanks for catching that.

I think it's worth noting that many belief systems recognize 'soul' and 'spirit' as two separate entities. It's entirely possible that the avatars have the exact same spirit, but that they still have different souls (i.e. are different people). I agree the semantics of 'the spirit world' make it sound like the Avatars could only. live there as one entity, but I do think you can interpret the beings who reside there as souls as well.

I'm not sure I buy that. The creators have said all souls reincarnate if I recall. They also said that Iroh basically freed himself from the cycle and will slowly turn into a spirit. That points to Spirits being a separate class of being. Some are dead humans but that's not the ultimate end state of most people's souls. Becoming a spirit is more like freeing yourself from the cycle.

The Avatar can do all that stuff that they do because they are a reincarnation of Avatar Wan. Wan gained the ability to use the four elements, Wan connected with Raava, and Raava swore to stay with Wan through his lifetimes. That is the origin of the Avatar.

Any theory that involves Aang or Korra or Kyoshi or Roku not really being Wan is factually wrong. Each Avatar has a different set of learned opinions, biases, and ideologies due to their respective life experiences, but they are all lives lived by this one person.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 24th 2020 at 6:10:22 AM