Live Blogs Pannic Reads Stuff He Hates

Pannic2012-06-30 18:18:12

I definitely agree with you about having knowledge of Fallout before reading FO:E makes the fic not as good. My ideal order is that you should first read the story, and then play the games. That way you still (retroactively) get the references, but everything seems new and original to you when you first read the book.

Anyway, this post is more like a summation of a bunch of things you've already said in a bunch of different places at a bunch of different times, so I have nothing new to say. Props to you for compiling it all, though. You make a much better argument when your points are all together like this.

I'm repeating myself. Shit. That's a bad sign.

Eh, I still think that Velvet is portrayed too positively to be a strawman. Admittedly, you haven't reached the biggest case of her being proven right yet and it is a bit unbalanced, but oh well.

I think that the bigger issue is that few of their enemies can be reasoned with.

That said, your last line was funny.

If you like random schmoes characters, than you definitely need to try Pink Eyes. That fic's full of them.

I think the problem with Fo E compared to the actual games happens only if you play with a character that good in speech. I for example always had characters with 7-8 levels in speech and/or carisma, with max. 6 or 7 in agility/resistance. Alas, Kkat must be one of those who gives more points to the last two, so while writing Fo E she reminded herself the way she usually completes missions (it helps that the fic is more about FO 3, the most gun-happy game of the series in my humble opinion). A pity, but what'cha gonna do.

Pip kinda reminds me of Shinji Hikari in some ways (especially in the beginning), only a little more.... vicious, if that's the right word. Her self-righteous narration can be read as way to excuse her actions. With time passing by (especially after Arbu) she becomes less of a vicious hero and more of a pragmatic one: she knows how her own actions makes her look more like the "villain of the piece" to the eyes of certain ponies, but if that's the only (well, the only sure) way to change things for the better, so be it. A way to see things I can't say that I agree with, but I can comprehend and maybe simpathize with it.

As for Velvet, her decision to a long with her happy-trigger companions can be read as a way to "close her eyes" in front of the horros of the wasteland and to the fact that she's unable to change something with her pacifist way, while still pretending to be one. Her semi freak-out at Arbu is the first sign that she can't take it anymore, and the Fluttershy's Cottage episode is when she completely lost it, it's her anger (both to wasteland and herself) finally exploding. You must give credit to her that, unlike Pip, she resisted until that point, she never spilled the blood of anypony (unless for self defense or to protect the others) and found the force to restrain herself until that far.

Lastly, I agree with you to the fact that Pip's companions almost never call her back because of her actions and/or never protest about a plan (except Steelhooves, and he's always treated in the wrong). It's only complain I can give to them, though.

No, she, is, not. In no way is she even close to a strawman. At no point are her beleifs EVER treated as wrong simply for what they are. But rather they are wrong for surviving in the hell-hole that the Wastes are. And it is the fact that the world has changed to the point that is true which is treated as wrong, not Velvet's ideals. Li'lpip's whole goal is to do her best to bring Equestria back to a place where ponies like Velvet CAN hold those ideals and not have to sacrifice them to survive.

And I actually preferred going in knowing about Fallout, though it does spoil some stuff, it also gives you a lot more tension when you know about stuff like Maripony, The Enclave etc...

And, as pointed out many many times. Diplomacy doesn't work if the other side will just start shooting on sight. Pretty much every time they've gone up agaisnt a foe that diplomacy might work with, they've tried it. But those are very very few. raiders, not going to happen. Redeye, they did, and it worked to a point. The Goddess, yeah that ain't gonna do anything. (And yes it worked with The Master, but Li'lpip brought up the exact same point that defeated him, and she was able to counter it thanks to magic making it a null point.)

Okay, still hated reading this, but now it's just into the YMMV, less pointlessly ranty stuff again. I just cannot see how you see most of this that way.

I think the point is that the story is usually not well balanced with her contents. For example, as Sereg said, Pip & co. meets too many adversaries where dipomacy is useless, while the games were usually more balanced in this way (except gun-happy FO 3 that is). This can make someone see the whole message as "diplomacy is useless, weapons and will-power are those that really brings peace", Hopefully that wasn't the message Kkat intended but some people like Pannic can read it this way (I did too, for a while: knowing however that Littlepip is not happy of it but is kinda forced doing this way, helped changing my mind).

I've yet to actually play Fallout. I don't get a lot of oppertunity to game and it seems a little out of my style.

Honestly, what I compared FOE to was Watership Down. That's the closest thing I had to it.

I actually do agree that Littlepip was too generic and attempts to make her deviate from genericness felt forced. I still saythat I think it would have been better for Littlepip to develop into the party rogue. It would feel more natural for her. And then we could have her solving some of her problems with sneakiness rather than violence. And then Velvet could actually have used her abilities to actually function as the face. Actually, with Velvet treated as the leader rather than Littlepip by those outside the group, that would not only be more interesting, but would solve a lot of issues mentioned here.

And again, the very fact that so few opponents are capable of being reasoned with, means you can't complain if somepony doesn't try talking more. When for 90% of the enemies, all that does is give them more time to line up their shot.

And at some point, you have to stop getting hung up on how it was in the game. This isn't that world, so failing it for not being such, when it stays internally consistent and the entire setting makes sense in and of itself. It's just ludicrous.

And I really can't argue with the whole "Li'lpip was generic and boring" part, becuase I don't even see it enough to know how to compare anything to it.

And here I agree with Seraphem. I don't like FOE because of how similar it is to MLP canon. I like it because it made sense internally and gave an explanation of how that world could result from the world we knew and loved in a way that celebrated that old world.

Of course, I'm biased due to my lack of knowledge of Fallout.

As for Littlepip's genericness. It actually was less the genericness itself and more something related to it. The fact that it looks like she was less a naturl character (like the aforementioned random people) and more a blank slate modified for the purposes of the fic. I'm sure that kkat didn't do it this way (at least on purpose), but at times, especally early on, it looks like:

Okay, my character is a pony because they're the star of the show. We can't alienate people though, so let's avoid description. But let's make her small to showcase her vulnerability and cuteness. She has to be female based on the show, but mst fans prefer woman, so let's make her an oversexed lesbian for fanservice. And let's play it for comedy to. She has to dislike anything different to up the contrast and the drama and to drive her o be the hero. And she's a PC, so let's make her an intlligent lockpick kleptomaniac. She has to be a unicorn as they're the most popular O Cs and Twilight is a unicorn but no spells as that alienates some people when she's good at stuff they're not. etc.

Then, despite ending up with a character who seemed to start off as inteligent and sneaky, she starts heady more and more down the road of the fronline fighter, which most of her party has well covered already. Yet she becomes their leader. And the entire wasteland praises her despite the fact that beyond leading, what she does is done better by Calamity and Steel Hooves anyway.

THIS is why I say that Littlepip would have made a better rogure and Velvet could have been the Stabe dweller. Though, of course, that would have been even LESS like Fallout. Because it wouldn't be a PC and her team, but a more equal group working together.

@Seraphem And again, the very fact that so few opponents are capable of being reasoned with, means you can't complain if somepony doesn't try talking more

I agree, it's not fault of the characters, more like fault of the story that doesn't give them something to deal more diplomatically :P.

This isn't that world, so failing it for not being such, when it stays internally consistent and the entire setting makes sense in and of itself. It's just ludicrous.

Really, that world have lot's of things in common with the atomic wasteland; if you take away the ponies and the magic (oh, and taint too :P) all that remain is a Fallout game made fic, more or less.

@Sereg Honestly, what I compared FOE to was Watership Down. That's the closest thing I had to it.

Uh, curious comparison there. A saw the movie of it so many times when I was a kid (yes, as a kid. No comment about it, please).

As for Littlepip, I was never I never found her genericness as negative. I like characters with the Everyman appeal, and she have both in personality and (fanon) design. Honestly, is much more hard making a generic and interesting main character that one with some sort of appeal.

And yeah, Velevet main problem is that she's too much underused (hell, even her medical skills are rarely touched), though instead of an actual leader I would've prefer to see her taking the Lancer role instead of Calamity and Steelhooves. She would've been more active as Pip conscience that way.

"THIS is why I say that Littlepip would have made a better rogure and Velvet could have been the Stabe dweller."

...This idea intrigues me. Very, very much.

@kimba: As I said, it's less her genericness (though everymen don't appeal to me much) and more that the parts of her that aren't generic feel tacked on and artificial to the point that they don't mesh with each other (and the more generic parts of her) well.

@Unknownlight: Thank you.

@Sereg Well, that can be read as he hidden character expoding with fury after being suppressed all that long (again, kinda like Shinji. After all, it's well known that calm people when exploding, they do it with the violence of than H bomb (hell, Flutterdhy's a clear example). but I agree, that too should've been more balanced.

@kimba: Not what I mean. I mean that she seems like a list of traits rather than an organically grown chracter at times. Especially near the begining. Her exploding with fury isn't the problem. The fact that her traits don't interact with each other well is.

It's the story's (and by extension, the author's) job to set up situations that show what a character is made of, though. Regardless of intent, the onus is on the author to mold the story and if the result is that Velvet and her diplomacy come off as completely ineffectual for the "wrong" reasons, well, that's too bad.

@Sereg Uh, never saw her that way before. I agree that she isn't very organic as a character at the beginning, but she does get better in this sense as the story progress.

The thing is, the Fallout games were never exactly on the same level as Deus Ex or Planescape: Torment when it came to being able to solve every conflict non-violently (at least if you wanted the non-shitty endings), but the series, for the most part, did allow you to roll your character as a smooth-talking diplomat, and many of the major conflicts could be solved through such means.

Let's take, for example, the Master, John Henry Eden, and Augustus Autumn. These characters were the inspiration for, respectively, the Goddess, Red Eye (granted he's a composite of numerous characters, but Eden is probably the biggest, or at least the most flagrantly copied), and Autumn Leaf. All three of them could be neutralized through diplomatic. And the last two were in Fallout 3, the one that pretty much forces combat on you.

I think it's a pretty notable departure - I mean, the manual for the first game has a list of all the player character skills, and next to Speech and Barter it has big asterisks and a footnote basically saying "pick these if you want to play a diplomatic character." There's even a character trait in 1, 2, and New Vegas you can pick called "Good Natured," which lowers your combat skills but raises your diplomatic and medicine skills. The Black Isle legacy actually has a bit of a history with this. For example, one of the main villains in Knights of the Old Republic II is pretty much immortal and the only way to defeat him is to convince him to stop holding onto life, and you can make some Persuade checks to weaken his resolve (and lower his stats). And now come this fic, where diplomacy is consistently portrayed as being dumb and useless.

I guess I've just gotten sick of shitty media that trumpets upon me the moral that violence will solve all our problems, and that wanting to do otherwise is fucking stupid. It's been chucked at me by His Dark Materials, and The Inheritance Cycle, and most hilariously and hypocritically from James Cameron's Avatar. I suppose that Fallout: Equestria isn't as bad as those, but when you consider that the original games didn't really have the aforementioned moral and the fic does... Also, I honestly find that Velvet's presence actually makes it worse, because it's like the story is hammering "oh, you don't want another boring action scene? Well fuck you."

Back onto the subject of Prissy Whine, I actually really wanted to like her. Hell, she's probably the only member of Team Protagonist that I come close to feeling things resembling empathy towards. But then the story didn't really give me anything to like. When I finished chapter 7, in which Velvet Remedy was introduced, I went "so you guys swear she isn't an annoying strawman?" And the response I got back was one of "she isn't." Then upon reading chapter 8 I find her being told to take a gun and suck it up, and her first killing of a pony played for laughs.

You can say that Velvet is portrayed positively, but here's the thing: when you have a character who is consistently set up by the story to be proven wrong (which she is), that is pretty much the definition of a strawman. And now, thirty chapters after her introduction, the story has still given me fairly little reason to believe otherwise. Also, as I have mentioned, I find her kind of annoying.

Velvet will eventually be shown to have been right on previous occasions. And I found it rather satisfying. Is it imbalanced against her? Yes. But I'm taking the story as it's presented to me. I don't compare to Fallout because I've never played it. I knew bascally nothing about it when I read the fic. Basically still do. But, while I was irritated by the For The Evulz of most of the early antagonists,I couldn't deny that violence was the only response appropriate against them. By the time they got to actually decent antagonists, that was the MO the team was familiar with. Was that a fault in the story? Yeah. But I can't blame the protagonists for that.

@Pannic I mostly agree here, but keep in mind two things:

-First, the story is mostly FO 3: yeah it does have quite many things taken from other games, but the big picture it's still mostly inspired by that game. Sure Kkat could've tried to change a little the source material, but apparently she instead choose to remain mostly faithful to it.

-Second, it also depends on how Kkat played the game series. Diplomatic and sneaky options, while still there, are only options at the end and it's possibly to complete the game while killing everyone, which is maybe what Kkat (and definetely most people) did. Granted, I always preferred to have characters that were good in both speech/carisma and guns of one or two types, instead of being just gun-happy Rambos, but I suspect that the latter is how most players made their characters.

I'm also sick of seying many medias (especially movies and videogames) that shows action and violence as the only option, but as for this fic I honestly stopped caring too much about this and now I mostly analyze other things in it (and some of them are very good, thankfully). However, about the "democratic and pacifistic ways sucks" thing, I think that's not what Kkat had in mind when writing this: I know because, unlike many others of those movies and vifeogames centered on violence, the fic acknowledges the fact that it's wrong. Sure, the times this happens are few compared to those of mindless action (and they happened only much later in the story) but I'd say it's still something compared to those other works :P.

@Sereg You'll have to forgive me if I'm not particularly convinced by claims of "it gets better later" at this point.