Line #104 YMMV/Joker2019


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2	* AccidentalAesop:
3	** The film contains possible arguments both for and against gun control:
4	*** The pro-gun control/pro-security message is that it was ridiculously easy for Arthur to get a gun for "self-defense" and then murder people with it. Later, Franklin fails to screen Arthur for weapons when he's appearing on his show, resulting in his death. The film's plot would not be possible if Arthur could not get a gun. Other weapons would not have been nearly as effective, and regardless Arthur definitely needed to be screened.
5	*** The pro-gun/anti-gun-control argument is that Arthur is constantly attacked and victimized with nobody to help him, which is why he resorts to arming himself with a gun in the first place. Without the gun, it's very possible he would have been killed by the Wayne businessmen assaulting him in the subway. Sophie could have potentially defended herself if she had been armed when Arthur broke into her apartment. In addition, due to gun control laws, Arthur is ineligible to own a gun due to his mental illness, but he manages to bypass the law anyways. Which of course can lead straight back to a pro-gun-control argument that the laws aren't strict ''enough'', or an anti-gun-control argument that no matter how strict the laws are some will find ways around them. Either way, the fact is that, though Arthur isn't legally allowed to wield a gun, he was able to get one anyway, and not able to defend himself until he had one.
6	** While the audience is supposed to blame Arthur's turn to evil on the mistreatment of society, one could interpret it as because of a lack of positive father figures instead. Throughout the film, Arthur is constantly searching for a father. He seems to view Murray Franklin as a kind of father figure, and he finally snaps when Franklin inadvertently brushes him aside. He befriends his older co-worker Randall who affectionately calls him "my boy" and gives him something to protect himself, only to be betrayed when it's inconvenient. Arthur also tries to get help from Thomas Wayne, believing him to be his father, and demanding a hug. Arthur's adopted father was incredibly abusive. It's possible that even in a bad society, Arthur would've [[IronWoobie struggled along]] if he had only had a good father.
7	** Though it's up for debate how accidental it is, you could walk away from the movie with the Aesop that a little positivity can change the world. While this doesn't happen in the movie, Arthur's struggle largely stems from nobody giving a shit about him and the viewer is left with the impression that if just one person had valued him, things would have gone completely different. Considering Arthur goes out of his way to spare Gary, his only friendly co-worker, it shows Arthur could've gotten better with kindness. It's worth noting that this is an Aesop that a lot of other Batman properties are fond of.
8	** Play to your strengths. Arthur's standup routine is incredibly milquetoast (with stagefright causing him to flub quite badly on his first joke) and when he becomes the Joker, [[EvilHasABadSenseOfHumor his jokes only get more offensive]] without improving in quality. His clown act on the other hand showcases his true talent for comedy, as he gets in full character, makes good use of his lanky frame and can improvise under stress (best seen with the gun in the hospital). On the Murray Franklin show, Arthur's flamboyant entrance got the audience cheering for him, but his "joke" killed off that goodwill instantly.
9	** Have a career to fall back in case your dreams don't go anywhere. While his mom is rude about it, Arthur's comedic performance does leave a lot to be desired, and he should try and find a new path in life.
10	** Being right about someone's bad behavior doesn't justify throwing gasoline into the fire and making them feel worse. While Arthur's behavior leaves a lot to be desired, [[JerkassHasAPoint and many people are right to be annoyed with him]], nobody actually tries to spell out for him what he should do to better himself. His therapist asks him useless questions, he is constantly berated by the people around him, and Murray Franklin makes the extremely unwise decision of [[BullyingADragon castigating a self-confessed murderer]], which ends quite poorly.
11	** If you choose to carry a weapon, treat it ''carefully''. If Arthur had used his gun responsibly instead of bringing it to the children's hospital, he wouldn't have been fired, sending him further into his downward spiral.
12	** If you want to be famous, public ridicule and criticism are something you need to accept. While Murray mocking Arthur's stand-up routine wasn't a nice thing to do, Arthur ought to have taken in stride and tried to improve his act.
13	* AlternateAesopInterpretation:
14	** Treat people with kindness, otherwise you won’t be spared from any violent outbursts.
15	** When you are dealing with a violent person, don't get confrontational with them-most especially when they have admitted to murder. No matter how just you might feel you are to call them out, that person is still dangerous and will not think twice about harming you.
16	** Whatever your misfortunes in life, you are responsible for your actions. While Arthur's plight is unfortunate, some of the bad things that happen to him are partly his own doing. While Randall was a cowardly dick, Arthur should have known better than to carry a gun unsecured into a hospital, and kind of did deserve to be fired. Thomas Wayne, while not a nice man, did have a right to be angry at Arthur for touching Bruce. And Murray Franklin himself is right to tell Arthur that his anger at the world is no excuse to be a murderous goon. And even if Thomas was Arthur's illegitimate father, Penny should've been a grown adult and taken care of her son rather than ask an old flame to do it for her.
17	* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation/Joker2019 Has its own page.]]
18	* AluminumChristmasTrees:
19	** Arthur's uncontrollable laughter is a real medical condition, called the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudobulbar_affect pseudobulbar affect]]. Ironically, because of the popularity of the character, it is often unofficially referred to as "Joker syndrome".
20	** The conditions in Gotham might also strike some as exaggerated to dystopian extremes but are a solid reflection of New York City in the early 1980s, complete with self-compounding sanitation department issues like a series of garbage collection strikes exacerbating a huge rat problem (both in the sense of being rampant and in being friendly to producing well-fed examples of already large rat species like the Hanover Rat and Gambian Pouched Rat).
21	* AndYouThoughtItWouldFail: The premise was met with skepticism upon announcement and box office predictions varied between "will barely recoup its budget" at worst and "will gross like ''[[Film/Shazam2019 SHAZAM!]]''" at best. While it received good-to-mixed reception with American critics, it managed to become a monster hit domestically and worldwide (even beating the October opening weekend record established by ''Film/{{Venom\|2018}}''), and even won the [[UsefulNotes/LeonedOro Leone d'Oro award at the 76th Venice Film Festival]], which is nothing to scoff at. The movie found a sizeable audience and much praise among it, becoming Creator/WarnerBros' biggest and most profitable film of 2019 by its second week (2019 was an ''awful'' year for WB, it was just what they needed), and one of the most profitable comic book films and R-rated films ''period'' by its third, surpassing the records broken by ''Film/{{Deadpool\|2016}}'' and ''Film/Deadpool2'' and grossing over $1 billion, despite not fitting the "[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-quadrant_movie four-quadrant]]" demographics most comic book films -- namely the Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse and what the Franchise/DCExtendedUniverse had been swerved into doing -- usually aim at for maximum success. It is now ''more profitable'' than the most massive (and costly) films of the MCU. Furthermore, it managed to make that sum without ''any'' box office gains from China due to ratings issues and topicality precluding a release there, whereas China used to provide a big chunk of profits for films released internationally. It then ended up doing the impossible and garnered 11 nominations at the Academy Awards, beating ''Film/{{Black Panther\|2018}}'' to become the most nominated comic book film in history, and ended up winning two of them in major categories (Best Actor for Creator/JoaquinPhoenix and Best Original Score for Music/HildurGudnadottir). It is no wonder that the first officially announced Creator/DCStudios project following the creation of Creator/WarnerBrosDiscovery was its Music/LadyGaga-costarring sequel, ''Folie à Deux''.
22	* AngstAversion: Some people who don't want to watch the movie have cited that they aren't very interested in a story about a man being tormented and turned to villainy by a CrapsackWorld.
23	* {{Applicability}}: [[WebVideo/MrTARDISReviews Trilbee Reviews]] described the film as a Rorschach test, since many people were seeing what they wanted to see in the themes of the movie, especially about what it says about politics. For example, some see the movie as being pro-social programs, others see the rioters as a critique to Antifa, some as a cautionary tale towards incels, and so on. And then, there are the people debating whether the movie has right-wing or left-wing politics, and even if the movie can fit into (or if it is about) that binary at all.
24	* {{Anvilicious}}:
25	** The film is extremely heavy-handed on the idea that some criminals are just regular people who've been [[SocietyIsToBlame pushed to the breaking point by the wrong side of society]].
26	** Equally heavy-handed is the idea that mocking a two-bit or beginner for a failure on national television is a really crappy thing to do. Arthur's first stand-up routine fails miserably, which is really common for newbies (in fact, it's seen as a rite of passage for comedians to bomb a couple of times before they gain any fame).
27	* AwardSnub: One of the highest-grossing films of all time, profiting over a billion dollars, and one of only a few films which won less than a third of the UsefulNotes/{{Academy Award}}s it was nominated for. ''Film/{{Parasite\|2019}}'' was frequently cited by fans as having stolen several wins from it, though there are fans who’ve seen the movie as a WorthyOpponent, especially considering both films are about the lower class taking revenge on the rich.
28	* BaseBreakingCharacter:
29	** Sophie. Fans will say she provides [[spoiler: an effective twist]] while detractors feel [[spoiler: her role is so underwritten and nonexistent that you can see it coming from a mile away.]] There's also a split on whether the twist itself means much at all, [[spoiler: since we already see Arthur having similar delusional visions before,]] while defenders claim [[spoiler: that it works since Arthur's hallucinations of Sophie aren't the same as his earlier dream of meeting Murray.]]
30	** Murray Franklin. Viewers, including on this wiki, either see him as a sympathetic JerkWithAHeartOfGold who's one of the few good people in an otherwise bleak setting and who cooly cuts through Arthur's self-pitiful justifications for his crimes or a self-righteous {{Hypocrite}} who is just as bad as others in Gotham, just in a different way, and who doesn't actually refute Arthur's [[VillainHasAPoint legitimate points]] about how awful Gotham is.
31	* BrokenBase: The idea of making the Joker a WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds that the audience is meant to sympathize with has been quite divisive among fans, even though it has been done before. One half of the fandom thinks it's a unique take on the character and a good {{Deconstruction}} of the Joker mythos, while the other half are used to seeing the Joker as a monster and feel that portraying such a monstrous character like him in a sympathetic light feels awkward and jarring, especially when one considers all the horrific and vile things he is known for doing in other media.
32	* CaptainObviousReveal: Arthur wasn't really dating Sophie, he just imagined her there during times we see them together to cope with his loneliness. Problem is, nobody ''else'' sees Sophie with Arthur either, not even Sophie's young daughter, and also, why would Sophie be so cavalier about dating a lonely, mentally ill weirdo who lives with his mother and ''stalked her'' to work? Granted Arthur didn't mean any harm at that point, but still, there was no reason why Sophie would have been interested in a man like him in the first place, so the twist she barely knows who he is really isn't a shock.
33	* CatharsisFactor:
34	** Arthur's first two victims can easily fall into this as he kills two men brutally beating him up, but it quickly turns into NightmareFuel when he hunts Ryan down who is running away wounded and in utter panic.
35	** In a sense, Arthur, now named Joker, giving his rant about how society has abandoned him and the mentally ill. Even killing Murray Franklin can be added as icing on the cake. Granted his only wrong was mocking the guy on live television. On the other hand, it’s a satisfying middle finger to those who made a living out of ridiculing, insulting, and outright demonizing the mentally ill and similar people for laughs or other selfish reasons, completely unaware of how much it hurts real-life people. Indeed, you get what you deserve.
36	* ClicheStorm: Most of the negative reviews dismiss the movie as being a retread of the familiar "abused loner becomes a psychopath" story, drawing specific parallels to Creator/MartinScorsese's previous films ''Film/TaxiDriver'' and ''Film/TheKingOfComedy''.
37	* CriticalDissonance: The film has a Rotten Tomatoes critic rating of 68% while the audience rating is 88%. It was also very successful at the box office, grossing over a billion dollars on a $55 million budget. Most of the negative reviews criticize the film for [[AngstAversion being too dark]], humanizing [[CryForTheDevil a villain like the Joker]], [[FollowTheLeader being too similar to the movies that inspired it]] (namely, ''Film/TaxiDriver'' and ''Film/TheKingOfComedy''), lacking any authentic politics of its own in favor of mere attempts at provocation, and potentially [[MisaimedFandom inspiring moviegoers to be more like the Joker]]. The general audience just seems to think it's a very good film overall. However, it did win the Golden Lion in the 2019 Venice Film Festival, one of the "Big Three" most prestigious film festivals, and it also won two Golden Globes for Best Actor and Best Original Score, which is nothing to scoff at. And then the film was nominated for ''eleven'' Oscars, the most for any film based off of a comic, and won two of them.
38	* CrossesTheLineTwice:
39	** Arthur spares Gary BecauseYouWereNiceToMe... but still pranks him by briefly lunging at him. Then Gary has to awkwardly ask him to take off the door's deadbolt that he can't reach.
40	** Arthur bringing a gun into a children's hospital? Not funny. Arthur [[InnocentlyInsensitive unintentionally tormenting]] a group of disabled kids in the hospital? Not funny. Arthur singing "If you're happy and you know it, stomp your feet" to a group of kids that includes ''[[BlackComedy one in a wheelchair]]'', accidentally dropping his gun, and then awkwardly trying to pretend that didn't happen? Now ''that's'' funny.
41	** Arthur's mom's insulting him by asking him "[[KickTheDog Don't you have to be funny to be a comedian?]]" So thoughtlessly cruel, and yet so hilariously rude at the same time.
42	** The one actual "joke" that Arthur tells in full is so utterly horrific (and [[AntiHumor totally unfunny]]) that it's hard not to laugh. It calls to mind "[[ComicBook/ArkhamAsylumASeriousHouseOnSeriousEarth Surprise! Your wife's dead and the baby's a spastic!]]"
43	--->'''Arthur:''' Knock knock.\
44	'''Murray:''' Who's there?\
45	'''Arthur:''' It's the police, ma'am. Your son's been hit by a drunk driver. He's dead!
46	* DelusionConclusion: Due to the film not attempting to differentiate between Arthur's imagination and reality (such as TheReveal that [[spoiler: his relationship with his neighbour Sophie was all in his head]]), some viewers have interpreted many of the later scenes (or even the entire movie) as similarly being a fantasy he dreamed up where nearly everyone that wronged him is dead and he finally gets the cheering audience he always wanted. It certainly fits in with the Joker's common portrayal of an ambiguous and inconsistent backstory.
47	* DiagnosedByTheAudience:
48	** Arthur has multiple psychological disorders that are never fully defined, aside from PBA (which is not mentioned by name in the film, but its symptoms are accurately described and portrayed). He is very socially awkward, shows signs of extreme depression and anxiety, and worse yet, suffers hallucinations. It turns out that he's [[spoiler: actually [[ChildhoodBrainDamage brain damaged]] due to prior abuses from his adoptive mother and her boyfriend, so it's even left ambiguous if his laughing condition is indeed a mental disorder, a result of the aforementioned brain damage, learned behavior, a biological condition which causes him to react to stressful situations with laughter, [[EvilHasABadSenseOfHumor a bizarre sense of humor]], or perhaps even all of the above]].
49	** [[spoiler: Regardless of her psychiatric records from Arkham Asylum being fake or not]], there are still some signs that Penny may actually have narcissistic personality disorder and delusional psychosis like the same papers suggest. The most obvious sign is her obsession with Thomas Wayne. [[spoiler: She believes that not only is he Arthur's father, but he will also actually give them financial aid if she asks simply because "they're family". Believing to be deeply connected to a famous person is common in delusional disorders, while her assumptions of being given money because of their past relationship [[note]] Though to be fair if Thomas Wayne is the father she would be legally entitled to back child support even with Arthur being an adult [[/note]] and LackOfEmpathy are some of the symptoms in narcissistic personality disorder, although it's said that her former boyfriend beat her up as well as Arthur and narcissists become furious if disrespected, making them more likely to abuse than to be abused. This creates the impression that the psychiatric records may have been faked]].
50	* DracoInLeatherPants: The Joker has always received this from some fans, but the humanizing of the character in this film allows it to reach new heights. Some see him as a hero of lower-class rebellion. For his part, Phillips has confirmed people are [[UnintentionallySympathetic not supposed to sympathize with Arthur]] as his crimes grow more heinous.
51	* EnsembleDarkhorse: Despite not being all that heavily involved in the movie's plot, Gary is a surprising bright spot for many fans, thanks to being a non-stereotypical character with dwarfism and being one of the few [[NiceGuy completely sympathetic]] people in the movie.
52	* FandomRivalry:
53	** With fans of Creator/JaredLeto's Joker in the DCEU. While Phoenix's performance was well-received, Leto's was more controversial and divisive; not helping matters is how Warner Bros' ExecutiveMeddling reduced Leto's role. The fact that a jealous Leto tried to get this film canned did nothing to endear him to this fanbase, and many laughed at him over being nominated for a Razzie for his Joker in between two actors who won Academy Awards for theirs.
54	** With ''Film/TaxiDriver'' and ''Film/TheKingOfComedy''. It was never hidden that they inspired this movie, but many of those pictures' fans feel that ''Joker'' was just ripping them off with less depth and pathos.
55	* FriendlyFandoms:
56	** With fans of Creator/HeathLedger's Joker from ''Film/TheDarkKnight'' since both actors were good friends in real life. The fact that both movies are [[DarkerAndEdgier incredibly dark and gritty]] certainly helps.
57	** The corners of the DCEU fandom that prefer DarkerAndEdgier comic book films are very much onboard with the film even though it's not part of the current [[SharedUniverse shared movie universe]].
58	** The fanbase of the film shared one with, of all films, ''Film/{{Parasite\|2019}}'' due to its similar class warfare themes, and director Bong Joon-ho commenting on the similarities while praising ''Joker''. Although ''Parasite'' beat ''Joker'' for Best Picture at the Oscars, the fanbase congratulated Bong for the achievement.
59	* FountainOfMemes: As with many incarnations before him, Creator/JoaquinPhoenix's Joker has reached memetic levels. From images of him sitting on a chair, to dancing on the stairs, to running down a street, to ranting about society, countless memes, image sets, and jokes have spawned.
60	* GeniusBonus:
61	** Arthur putting on the full Joker outfit for the first time is scored with "Rock and Roll" by Music/GaryGlitter, a once-beloved entertainer who is now known only for his criminal actions.
62	** The movie theater where Arthur confronts Thomas Wayne is playing ''Film/ModernTimes''. The song "Smile", which is played in both the trailer and movie, was a song written for ''Modern Times''. Also, ''Modern Times'' was about the underprivileged Tramp trying to survive TheGreatDepression, which isn't too far off from one of this movie's themes about the struggling poor trying to survive while the rich benefit. Even better, the movie follows a story of a man who suffers a nervous breakdown, loses a job, and accidentally becomes the leader of an angry crowd that just happened to walk in the same direction.
63	** Arthur killing the Wayne Enterprises employees is a reference to the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shooting Bernie Goetz]] incident, complete with the city taking sides for and against the shooter.
64	* GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff: Much of the film's negative press has come from the US, often attributed to the country's particular socio-political issues at the time of its release (and continuing today), while it has gotten nigh-universal praise from foreign critics -- perhaps exemplified by the Venice Film Festival where it got a standing ovation and won the UsefulNotes/LeoneDOro grand prize.
65	* HeartwarmingInHindsight:
66	** Creator/JoaquinPhoenix was good friends with the late [[Film/TheDarkKnight Joker]] actor Creator/HeathLedger.
67	** At the end of the movie, some rioters driving a stolen ambulance crash into the squad car carrying Arthur, and get him out once they recognize him as the Joker. Around the same time as the film's release, Joaquin Phoenix crashed his Tesla while making a right turn out of a parking lot into an emergency vehicle. His car was damaged in the low velocity crash, but the unoccupied emergency vehicle only got a few noticeable scratches, and after tracking down the paramedics, he explained what happened, and after the police filed the report, they decided not cite him since he didn't raise a fuss, and apologized.
68	* HypeBacklash: Many people have this view of the movie, seeing it as not worth all the attention behind it, with the biggest criticisms being that it's too over-the-top in its darkness and derivative of other works.
69	* JerkassWoobie:
70	** By the end of the movie, Arthur has become a violent SerialKiller. But his tirade at Murray's show is the words of a man broken by years of abuse that you can't help but feel sorry for.
71	** Murray Franklin shouldn't have humiliated Arthur on live television, that much is true. And yet, when we're finally introduced to him in-person at the film, he's revealed to be [[JerkWithAHeartOfGold a pretty decent guy]] who is respectful to both his employees and Arthur, and calmly tries to de-escalate the situation when Arthur goes on his MotiveRant. As much of a jerk as he could be, Murray certainly didn't deserve to die.
72	* JerksAreWorseThanVillains: Arthur is definitely a full-blown VillainProtagonist by the end of the movie, but many moviegoers felt greater hatred toward the people who drove him to madness.
73	** The Wayne Investments executives were drunken cretins who harassed a woman and beat Arthur over his laughing fits and probably deserved to be shot by Arthur.
74	** Penny, a crazed and deranged [[spoiler: adoptive]] mother who allowed her boyfriends to beat Arthur severely.
75	** Randall, who helped Arthur get fired by passing him a gun and then lying to Arthur's boss.
76	* JustHereForGodzilla:
77	** Some audiences who dislike or even openly hate comic book movies were excited for this movie just because it stars Creator/JoaquinPhoenix and Creator/RobertDeNiro.
78	** After release, high praise to Phoenix's work was common even among those who disliked the film.
79	* MemeticMutation: As seen [[Memes/Joker2019 here]].
80	* MisaimedFandom:
81	** Clown masks like those of Gotham's rioters and the makeup of this incarnation of the Joker have sort of become the new [[Film/VForVendetta Guy Fawkes]] face symbols among a number of demonstrators and rioters throughout the world. This is despite the fact that Arthur more or less admits he doesn't care about making a statement and caused the EatTheRich riots in the film by accident.
82	** A number of viewers of the film often say that Sophie should have really been Arthur's romantic interest in the film, or at the very least, the twist about her being in Arthur's head should not have happened but instead she was real. While understandable people would want the character to be used more, this misses the fact that Arthur having Sophie genuinely love him/interested in him would essentially ruin the movie's whole point of Arthur slowly becoming the Joker, as Arthur being alone and not having people to turn to is one of the biggest contributing factors to him eventually snapping. If Sophie did like him, it would make Arthur's transformation into the Joker either impossible, or would require her getting StuffedInTheFridge, which is arguably a worse usage of the character.
83	** There are a wealth of videos on [=YouTube=] and images on websites like Twitter that use Joker as a background for sharing advice, most infamously business and moneymaking advice, despite the film being about a man fighting ''against'' the wealthy.
84	* MoralEventHorizon:
85	** When exactly Arthur crosses this line is a matter of interpretation. He certainly seems to view murdering his hospitalized mother as this, as it's after this point that he drops any delusion of a normal, happy life and starts "celebrating" by transforming himself into the new Joker persona. His murder of his longtime idol Murray on live television could also qualify, but if he hasn't crossed it by then he certainly does at the end, when he (presumably) kills the therapist who has done nothing whatsoever to hurt him, unlike his other murders previously.
86	** The Wall Street Three cross it when they attempt to beat Arthur to death simply for laughing.
87	* MovementMascot: The film itself not only treats mental illness as a serious issue, but also social nonconformity that can lead into a massive riot against their authorities if it's not treated well. With this issue in mind, most of the recent social movements in different countries like Hong Kong, Lebanon, Ecuador and Chile now have the figure of Arthur Fleck, aka ComicBook/TheJoker, as a symbol for these protests, even appearing via various {{cosplay}}ers in the middle of the demonstrations in diverse cities of these countries, being held up as the "new" [[ComicBook/VForVendetta Guy Fawkes]].[[note]]To clarify: this movie's version is the one which the people identify with, the [[ComicBook/TheJoker original source character]] is [[MisaimedFandom a different story]].[[/note]]
88	* {{Narm}}:
89	** The shot with Arthur lying on the ground after being beaten up is meant to be a TearJerker (which, to some people, it ''is''). However, many have [[https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1477943-joker-2019-film pointed out]] that it bears resemblance to [[Recap/TheSimpsonsS6E18AStarIsBurns "Man Getting Hit By Football"]].
90	** Thomas and Martha Wayne's murders come across as more "funny" than "shocking/dramatic" when the gunman awkwardly works in what is, to him, a quote from a guy on a late night talk show. Even taking away the context of the line's introduction, the delivery is awkward and pretty funny.
91	** For some, the setting and plot can be hard to take seriously on account of being just so dark, with a huge portion of the runtime just being Arthur going through a long TraumaCongaLine with a seemingly unending series of casually despicable characters starting to get really over-the-top after awhile.
92	* NarmCharm:
93	** Arthur dancing down the stairs to the tune of "Rock and Roll" garnered many comparisons to the similarly ridiculous [[Film/SpiderMan3 Emo Peter Parker dance]], yet it became a beloved, iconic moment in the film as it shows Arthur's detachment from reality and his absurd mentality.
94	** "We live in a society" memes aside, the reason that Joker's speech at the end about how he believes that society is awful works because of Joaquin Phoenix's delivery, along with the rest of the movie going out of its way to show that, as horrible as the Joker is, [[VillainHasAPoint he's not wrong]] about [[WretchedHive Gotham]]. Following that...
95	*** Arthur [[spoiler:killing Murray.]] It’s painfully obvious that the blood is CG, but, because of how convincing Joaquin Phoenix sounds as he’s having a VillainousBreakdown along with the suspenseful music that slowly creeps in and gets more intense, it still comes off as absolutely terrifying.
96	* NoSuchThingAsBadPublicity: With all the press and criticism it received over its content, the film still made over $96 million on its opening weekend, immediately putting it into profit territory thanks to its $55 million budget, and then over half a billion dollars in less than two weeks -- and finally making ''one full billion'' after over a month. Even memes poking fun at the film did nothing but popularize it. This also applies to many tirades and criticisms people on Twitter threw about the film, especially after Phillips' infamous interview with ''Vanity Fair'' in which he sarcastically remarked that "woke culture" killed his interests in making comedy films, resulting in him making ''Joker''. With the amount of ranting, snarky {{Take That}}s, and caustic attitude and accusations of the film mistreating the idea of a mentally ill person going on a rampage (despite the fact Arthur's descent into the Joker was caused by multiple factors, not ''just'' his illness driving him to the deep end) only made people watch the film and also note the film was instead treating the topic of mental illness with a good amount of respect, especially if you take into account the subtle criticism towards the stigma of mental illness during the scene of the final therapy session with Arthur and his therapist.
97	* NoYay: Many fans shipped The Joker with Batman. With this film however, and Bruce Wayne being a child and The Joker being a young adult, leaves many fans put off by their age difference as well as the possibility of the two being half-siblings.
98	* OlderThanTheyThink:
99	** Joker being a failed comedian who had "a bad day"; this was the case in ''ComicBook/TheKillingJoke''.
100	** This isn't the first time Thomas Wayne has been portrayed in a less-than-positive light. He was made into an outright villainous figure in ''VideoGame/BatmanTheTelltaleSeries'', compared to this version being more of a dick than usual.
101	** Being an Elseworld story the premise of Joker established as being an adult when Bruce Wayne was still a child has more or less been explored in Creator/TimBurton's ''Film/{{Batman\|1989}}''.
102	** This movie isn't the first time the concept of Batman and the Joker possibly being brothers was explored, as the out-of-continuity crossover ''ComicBook/BatmanLobo'' portrayed the Joker as Bruce Wayne's twin brother Joey Wayne.
103	** Memetic Variation. This incarnation of the Joker is practically synonymous with the "We live in a society" meme. However, said meme was actually based around Heath Ledger's performance in ''The Dark Knight'' and predates this film significantly.
104	* OneSceneWonder: A preteen Bruce Wayne is hanging out by the gates of Wayne Manor when Arthur shows up. He's [[TheStoic incredibly dour]] and [[CreepyChild his lips don't so much as twitch at Arthur's clownish antics]].
105	* OutOfTheGhetto: In two flavors.
106	** ''Joker'' was the first comic book-inspired movie to leave the Venice Film Festival with the Golden Lion. And, against all odds, the movie was nominated to a great sum of ''eleven'' Oscars, and won two of them (Best Actor and Best Score).
107	** Despite being a grim R-rated drama with none of the "four quadrants" usually associated with comic book movies, it found a ''large'' audience that skyrocketed it past $1 billion at the box office.
108	* {{Padding}}: Sophie's entire screentime can count, as she barely does anything and her twist doesn't impact the plot, as Arthur's delusions are made clear early into the film when he dreams of meeting Murray. Of course, it's that much padding given her screentime is rather scant.
109	* PeripheryDemographic: Though this time it's by design. The film has attracted comic book movie crowds and Batman mythos fans as well as people who are more onboard with raw dramas ala Creator/MartinScorsese (which it homages in numerous ways) and usually don't go to see comic book movies and/or don't care about comics.
110	* RealismInducedHorror:
111	** One of the reasons why the film is as scary as it is is because it's the story of a man who goes crazy and becomes a SpreeKiller, a pretty harsh reality that has only become harsher with the sharp rise in these kind of criminals since UsefulNotes/{{Columbine}}, and it's the most realistic interpretation of a Joker OriginStory to date.
112	** Arthur's miserable life of abuse, alienation, poverty, and despair is also a mundane horror that many people have to live with.
113	* RootingForTheEmpire: While Arthur went too far in his retribution, a few viewers were rooting for him when he finally got fed up with being bullied and harassed. So when he's on the train and he once again gets harassed and even ''assaulted,'' people rooted for him when he took out his gun and shot his attackers. Some even root for him for killing Penny because she abused and neglected him as a child. It's when he kills Randall and Murray when he starts to lose this.
114	* RonTheDeathEater:
115	** While the depiction of Thomas Wayne is definitely colder, more hostile and more of a jerk than his typical depiction in the comics, there seems to be a tendency to exaggerate precisely how villainous and sleazy he is actually depicted as being. While there is a hint of ambiguity concerning whether or not he is actually Arthur's father, this evidence is presented in the film as deeply unreliable at best, and potentially an entirely fabricated delusion. Meanwhile, what we actually see him do is express shock at the violent slaying of three of his employees during an interview (reasonable enough) and consequently make some poorly-chosen if not outright classist comments (less so), and have a surprise confrontation with a clearly unstable man who approached his young son without permission while no one else was around before physically assaulting his butler, and who is now ranting about being his son. The second situation in particular makes a cold, hostile attitude on Thomas's part at very least understandable, if not entirely justified, and yet this is often framed as if he is merely being an unreasonable asshole. It is also common for people to assume or hypothesize that Thomas framed Penny as being mentally disturbed and abusive in order to hide his affair with her when, even being an AdaptationalJerkass, there is nothing to suggest he is anywhere near being so cruel, ruthless, amoral and sadistic.
116	** Arthur also gets a weird example of this from the film's detractors. It's very common among people who disliked the film to frame him as an entitled and immature guy who was doing fine but lashed out at the world solely for not indulging his absurdly inflated view of himself and expectations from it, comparing him to real-life killers like Eliot Rodgers who had extremely privileged upbringings. This ignores that Arthur had spent years dealing with serious mental health issues which his sincere efforts to deal with were undermined by factors outside his control, that he lived in poverty and in a city with an out of control crime rate and that he was right to point out how the wealthy in Gotham don't really care about the poor or respect them. He's still evil but it's clear Arthur had a seriously hard life which made him the way he was.
117	* SignatureScene:
118	** The subway scene has become one; even many critics who disliked the movie admitted that that scene was well done.
119	** The scene where Joker dances down the steps to the tune of "Rock and Roll, Part 2". It was featured prominently on one of the film's main posters, and even turned the steps he danced down into a [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joker_Stairs proper tourist attraction]].
120	* SpiritualAdaptation: The Batman origin imagery aside, this is as close Warner Bros will ever get in providing a remake of ''Film/TheKingOfComedy'' right down to the similar characters and setting. Arthur's relationship with Sophie has also been compared with fellow Creator/MartinScorsese film ''Film/TaxiDriver''.[[note]]Amusingly, Joaquin Phoenix's film from a year prior, ''Film/YouWereNeverReallyHere'', was also frequently compared to ''Taxi Driver'', though for a different aspect of the narrative.[[/note]]
121	* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter:
122	** Many have complained that Sophie, considering that her relationship with Arthur is all his imagination, could be removed from the plot entirely with little effect. She's considered to be a waste of Creator/ZazieBeetz. This may be an unforeseen consequence of the rewrites that overhauled Sophie's character.
123	** Murray Franklin. Given how he is one of the few sympathetic and reasonable characters, as well as a major inspiration to Arthur, several critics and audiences wished he had more screentime and plot relevance. While his death is genuinely tragic and horrifying, some felt that this scene would've had more emotional weight had audiences spent more time with Franklin. Also counts as a waste of Creator/RobertDeNiro.
124	* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodPlot: A common observation of the film is that, due to being an InNameOnly adaption of the Joker character, the movie discards the opportunity to do a character study of ''the'' [[ComicBook/TheJoker Joker]], the iconic comic book character, as was initially advertised. Rather instead being a character study of an unrelated character who happens to take up the "Joker" mantle. This doesn't make the resulting film ''bad'', necessarily, but it still counts as a missed opportunity.
125	* TooBleakStoppedCaring: Though Gotham's always been a miserable place, it's exacerbated here by its awfulness being unchanged in a realistic setting devoid of heroes. The vast majority of people Arthur meets are terrible, and he winds up being no better than them. It's understandable that some viewers struggle to connect to or care for a nearly exclusively grim narrative.
126	* WhatDoYouMeanItsNotForKids: Some clueless parents were taking their kids to see this movie just because it was part of the Batman franchise, unaware that it was rated '''R'''. Alamo Drafthouse had to issue a [[https://ew.com/movies/2019/10/02/joker-parents-warning/ PSA]] to said parents about not taking their kids to see it, and at least one theater placed signs at the ticket office stating that the movie was a hard "R", listed a content warning, and stated that they'd be strictly carding younger-looking ticket customers. And while there's no shortage of [[Film/Watchmen2009 R]]-[[Film/{{Logan}} Rated]] [[Film/Deadpool2016 superhero]] [[Film/TheSuicideSquad movies]] not meant for younger audiences, most of them still have enough elements of typical superhero fare (colourful characters or creative, superpowered battle sequences) that kids can get into them. Meanwhile, ''Joker'' is an adult drama entirely devoid of action and focused mainly on dialogue, meaning that it would probably bore any kid who did manage to see it.
127	* WhatDoYouMeanItsNotPolitical:
128	** Joker's actions inspire a riot that is eerily similar in message to Occupy Wall Street, with clown masks instead of Guy Fawkes masks, and with heavily increased violence.
129	** Thomas Wayne is depicted as a wealthy, powerful and arrogant elitist, running for public office under a pretense of representing and caring about the downtrodden which is a common interpretation of UsefulNotes/DonaldTrump by his critics. This is ramped up by information that they intended to cast Creator/AlecBaldwin first (who notably satirized Trump on ''Series/SaturdayNightLive'') and that the casting call described Wayne as "Trumpesque". However, the rioters' AppropriatedAppellation of "clowns" seems taken from UsefulNotes/HillaryClinton's "basket of deplorables" debacle.
130	* TheWoobie: Arthur Fleck, especially before he became [[WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds dangerously homicidal]]. The man has been through such horrible things that it's impossible not to feel sorry for him. He lives in perpetual poverty, suffers from a mental illness, has been beaten, humiliated, and bullied throughout his life on a regular basis, was constantly tortured by his mom's boyfriend, and all he wants is to bring laughter and joy to children and people in an environment of economic recession. Before the climax of the film, he runs out of money, therapy, medicine and, as if that wasn't enough, he was possibly adopted and Murray invites him to his show to tease him on TV. It is no wonder why Arthur ended up becoming [[Characters/BatmanTheJoker The Joker]].

Context YMMV / Joker2019