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* FandomRivalry: With its own spinoff! A lot of mainline ''Megaten'' fans resent ''Franchise/{{Persona}}'', particularly ''VideoGame/Persona4'' and ''VideoGame/Persona5'' for being the MorePopularSpinoff. In turn, many fans of the later ''Persona'' games deride the mainline games for being too archaic, if they acknowledge the existence of the mainline games at all. Some mainline fans accuse ''Persona'' and its popularity for the post ''IV'' games having LghterAndSofter and YoungerAndHipper writing and character designs.
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* FandomRivalry: With its own spinoff! A lot of mainline ''Megaten'' fans resent ''Franchise/{{Persona}}'', particularly ''VideoGame/Persona4'' and ''VideoGame/Persona5'' for being the MorePopularSpinoff. In turn, many fans of the later ''Persona'' games deride the mainline games for being too archaic, if they acknowledge the existence of the mainline games at all. Some mainline fans accuse ''Persona'' and its popularity for the post ''IV'' games having LghterAndSofter LighterAndSofter and YoungerAndHipper writing and character designs.
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* FandomRivalry: A certain segment of the ''Megaten'' fanbase who are interested in the mythology aspects hate the ''Franchise/FateSeries'' for taking way too many creative liberties with the mythological characters, some even blaming ''Fate'' and its popularity for the drastic change in demon design philosophy and increased deviance from characterization in the post ''IV'' games.
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* FandomRivalry: With its own spinoff! A lot of mainline ''Megaten'' fans resent ''Franchise/{{Persona}}'', particularly ''VideoGame/Persona4'' and ''VideoGame/Persona5'' for being the MorePopularSpinoff. In turn, many fans of the later ''Persona'' games deride the mainline games for being too archaic, if they acknowledge the existence of the mainline games at all. Some mainline fans accuse ''Persona'' and its popularity for the post ''IV'' games having LghterAndSofter and YoungerAndHipper writing and character designs.
** A certain segment of the ''Megaten'' fanbase who are interested in the mythology aspects hate the ''Franchise/FateSeries'' for taking way too many creative liberties with the mythological characters, some even blaming ''Fate'' and its popularity for the drastic change in demon design philosophy and increased deviance from characterization in the post ''IV'' games.
** A certain segment of the ''Megaten'' fanbase who are interested in the mythology aspects hate the ''Franchise/FateSeries'' for taking way too many creative liberties with the mythological characters, some even blaming ''Fate'' and its popularity for the drastic change in demon design philosophy and increased deviance from characterization in the post ''IV'' games.
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* FandomRivalry: A certain segment of the ''Megaten'' fanbase who are interested in the mythology aspects hate the ''Franchise/FateSeries'' for taking way too many creative liberties with the mythological characters, some even blaming ''Fate'' and its popularity for the drastic change in demon design philosophy and increased deviance from characterization in the original myths after Doi took over.
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* FandomRivalry: A certain segment of the ''Megaten'' fanbase who are interested in the mythology aspects hate the ''Franchise/FateSeries'' for taking way too many creative liberties with the mythological characters, some even blaming ''Fate'' and its popularity for the drastic change in demon design philosophy and increased deviance from characterization in the original myths after Doi took over.post ''IV'' games.
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* FandomRivalry: A certain segment of the ''Megaten'' fanbase who are interested in the mythology aspects hate the ''Franchise/FateSeries'' for taking way too many creative liberties with the mythological characters, some even blaming ''Fate'' and its popularity for the drastic change in demon design philosophy and increased deviance from characterization in the original myths after Doi took over.
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** [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlJrEwEMIpM Vote Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne]] [[labelnote:Explanation]]Series/XPlay, in the buildup for their 2004 award show, made a commercial that portrayed ''Nocturne'', which would take the award for Best RPG, as a political challenger against an incumbent ''VideoGame/KingdomHeartsII''. The sheer absurdity of an old couple talking about a pair of video games like politicians caught on, and even ''Atlus themselves'' left a comment asking, "What in the damn hell is this?"[[/labelnote]]
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** [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlJrEwEMIpM Vote Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne]] [[labelnote:Explanation]]Series/XPlay, in the buildup for their 2004 award show, made a commercial that portrayed ''Nocturne'', which would take the award for Best RPG, as a political challenger against an incumbent ''VideoGame/KingdomHeartsII''. The sheer absurdity of an old couple talking about a pair of video games like politicians caught on, and even ''Atlus themselves'' left a comment asking, "What in the damn hell is this?"[[/labelnote]]
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** [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlJrEwEMIpM Vote Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne]] [[labelnote:Explanation]]Series/XPlay, in Mot's Drama [[labelnote:Explanation]]Mot is infamous among ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIIINocturne'' players for its AI having the buildup for their 2004 award show, made a commercial that portrayed ''Nocturne'', which would take ability to spamg Beast Eye, alongside occasional Makakaja and Megidolaon, to pretty much wipe the award for Best RPG, as party before anyone has a political challenger against an incumbent ''VideoGame/KingdomHeartsII''. The sheer absurdity of an old couple talking about a pair of video games like politicians caught on, and even ''Atlus themselves'' left a comment asking, "What in the damn hell is this?"[[/labelnote]]chance to act.[[/labelnote]]
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* ItsHardSoItSucks: A complaint from a lot of JRPG enthusiasts, particularly that the difficulty is [[FakeDifficulty not particularly well-designed]] or [[LuckBasedMission dependent on player skill]].
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* ItsHardSoItSucks: A complaint from More than a lot of JRPG enthusiasts, particularly few [=JRPG=] enthusiasts who try this series for the first time (including those introduced to the franchise via ''Persona'') have come away feeling that the series' approach to difficulty is [[FakeDifficulty not particularly well-designed]] or relies too much on [[TrialAndErrorGameplay trial-and-error]] and [[LuckBasedMission dependent luck]] (and the usual [=RPG=] trick of [[LevelGrinding spending hours grinding to out-stat a boss]] usually isn't viable). Of course, [[FandomBerserkButton saying this to any devoted fan of the series isn't a particularly good idea]].
** Much of this comes down to the fact that a lot of common RPG-player habits can be pretty detrimental to those not used to ''Megami Tensei.'' Things like [[TooAwesomeToUse hoarding lots of powerful items and never using them]], spending most of your money onplayer skill]].expensive equipment and healing items, [[UselessUsefulSpell ignoring status buff skills]], and relying on raw stat numbers to get past difficult bosses are all reasonable tactics in most [=JRPGs=], but will likely get you into trouble here.
** Similarly, anyone used to the ''Pokémon'' games will tell you that picking a handful of [[{{Mon}} 'mons]] early on and sticking with them for a long time is usually the ideal way to play. Try that in any [=MegaTen=] game and you'll likely get stomped into the ground.
** Much of this comes down to the fact that a lot of common RPG-player habits can be pretty detrimental to those not used to ''Megami Tensei.'' Things like [[TooAwesomeToUse hoarding lots of powerful items and never using them]], spending most of your money on
** Similarly, anyone used to the ''Pokémon'' games will tell you that picking a handful of [[{{Mon}} 'mons]] early on and sticking with them for a long time is usually the ideal way to play. Try that in any [=MegaTen=] game and you'll likely get stomped into the ground.
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Use of an official name cannot be a Fandom Enraging Misconception. (Also not accurate to begin with.)
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** Fans refer to the franchise as ''Megami Tensei'', so calling it ''Shin Megami Tensei'' will often get you corrected to the former.
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*** That said, more favourable depictions of law in ''Strange Journey Redux, Devil Survivor Overclocked'' and ''Devil Survivor 2'' have made law more popular in the west, especially as extreme social darwinism is ''also'' loathed. The story trailers for ''Shin Megami Tensei V'' also excitedly caused fans to associate the Nahobino with Law, well before the game's release.
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* GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff: More favourable depictions of Law in ''Strange Journey Redux, Devil Survivor Overclocked'' and ''Devil Survivor 2'' have made Law more popular in the west, especially as extreme social darwinism is ''also'' loathed. The story trailers for ''Shin Megami Tensei V'' also excitedly caused fans to associate the Nahobino with Law, well before the game's release.
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** Considering how important it is to apply buffs and debuffs in this game, any ability that removes either(Dekaja and Dekunda, respectively) can be a pain to deal with. A single cast can wipe out multiple turns of buff/debuff casts, durigng which time you've spent tens of MP to even the odds against the demons.
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Removing ROCEJ sinkhole as per discussion
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* {{Anvilicious}}: Quite a number of entries outright depict the Neutral Ending as the good[=\=]canon ending, and each other side has zealots on each of them. Not that there isn't truth to this, however, since the best of both worlds is the best option in a lot of real world situations, and, [[Administrivia/RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment without getting into too much detail that can be controversial]], "my way or the highway" is the though process of the farthest on either side of an issue.
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* {{Anvilicious}}: Quite a number of entries outright depict the Neutral Ending as the good[=\=]canon ending, and each other side has zealots on each of them. Not that there isn't truth to this, however, since the best of both worlds is the best option in a lot of real world situations, and, [[Administrivia/RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment without getting into too much detail that can be controversial]], "my and "My way or the highway" is the though process of the farthest on either side of an issue.
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** ''Shin Megami Tensei'' is the ''Dark Souls'' of ''Persona'' [[labelnote:Explanation]]More people are familiar with ''Persona'' than ''Shin Megami Tensei'', so some people who had previously played a ''Persona'' game before playing an SMT game would compare it to ''VideoGame/DarkSouls''.[[/labelnote]]
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** ''Shin Megami Tensei'' is the ''Dark Souls'' of ''Persona'' [[labelnote:Explanation]]More people are familiar with ''Persona'' than ''Shin Megami Tensei'', so some people who had previously played a ''Persona'' game before playing an SMT game would compare it to ''VideoGame/DarkSouls''.[[/labelnote]] It's a further mutation the "Dark Souls of X" meme, which parodies the tendency of NintendoHard games being compared to ''Dark Souls''[[/labelnote]]
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* CommonKnowledge: The idea that the mainline ''Shin Megami Tensei'' series is this dead serious and grim dark series is a surprisingly enduring perception of the series. While more serious than most JRPG series out there, it is not afraid to use the occasional rather quirky humor and levity when the situation calls for it.
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* CommonKnowledge: CommonKnowledge:
** The idea that the mainline ''Shin Megami Tensei'' series is this dead serious and grim dark series is a surprisingly enduring perception of the series. While more serious than most JRPG series out there, it is not afraid to use the occasional rather quirky humor and levity when the situation calls forit.it.
** Mainline games have no story. It is quite the common idea that mainline games in the series have little to no plot or character writing. This however is simply a result of people thinking ''[[VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIIINocturne Nocturne]]'' is the [[SmallReferencePools base mold of the series]] with its minimalist plot when in fact it is the outlier. In fact, even the older games were known to be unusually plot heavy for their time, in stark contrast to the common perception.
** The idea that the mainline ''Shin Megami Tensei'' series is this dead serious and grim dark series is a surprisingly enduring perception of the series. While more serious than most JRPG series out there, it is not afraid to use the occasional rather quirky humor and levity when the situation calls for
** Mainline games have no story. It is quite the common idea that mainline games in the series have little to no plot or character writing. This however is simply a result of people thinking ''[[VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIIINocturne Nocturne]]'' is the [[SmallReferencePools base mold of the series]] with its minimalist plot when in fact it is the outlier. In fact, even the older games were known to be unusually plot heavy for their time, in stark contrast to the common perception.
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** Whether demon designs should stick to the original myths as closely as possible like those by Kaneko, or be allowed to take some creative liberties like those by Doi or the guest artists is fiercely debated. The debates on whether Doi or Kaneko is the better artist or character designer in general has also divided the fandom.
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** The character designs ends up having two prongs to its discussions.
*** Whether demon designs should stick to the original myths as closely as possible like those by Kaneko, or be allowed to take some creative liberties like those by Doi or the guest artists is fiercelydebated. debated.
*** The debates onwhether Doi or Kaneko who is the series better artist or character designer in general has also divided the fandom.fandom. Is it Kaneko with his unique style and obscure and occult influences from both the Eastern and Western world, or is his style boring and uncanny? Is it Doi with his more liberal style with a focus on the cool factor influenced primarily by anime, {{Toku}} and Japanese pop culture in general, or is his style messy, inconsistent in quality and generic? Is it Soejima with his exaggerated style based in youth culture, or is it gaudy and trying too hard? There is just a lot of opinions on this topic amongst the fans.
*** Whether demon designs should stick to the original myths as closely as possible like those by Kaneko, or be allowed to take some creative liberties like those by Doi or the guest artists is fiercely
*** The debates on
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** Whether demon designs should stick to the original myths as closely as possible like those by Kaneko, or be allowed to take some creative liberties like those by Doi or the guest artists is fiercely debated. The debates on whether Doi or Kaneko is the better artist or character designer in general has also divided the fandom.
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* AdaptationDisplacement: Shin Megami Tensei spun-off from the original Megami Tensei, which was based on the ''Literature/DigitalDevilStory'' series of books.
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* AdaptationDisplacement: Shin ''Shin Megami Tensei Tensei'' spun-off from the original Megami Tensei, ''Megami Tensei'' games, which was were in turn based on the ''Literature/DigitalDevilStory'' series of books.
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** It was thought that this trope was the reason why ''Atlus'' hesitated to release the games outside of Japan since they featured antagonistic depictions of religious figures still in worship such as the Abrahamic God and Hindu figures. ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIVApocalypse'' for instance got flack from Hindu Indians due to its depiction of Krishna.
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** It was thought that this trope was the reason why ''Atlus'' hesitated to release the games outside of Japan since they featured antagonistic depictions of religious figures still in worship worship, such as the Abrahamic God and Hindu figures. ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIVApocalypse'' for instance got flack from Hindu Indians due to its depiction of Krishna.
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** The Law-alignment from ''SMT'' proper is this for its belief in a WorldOfSilence where all worships [[GodIsEvil YHVH]] for eternity, getting ''tons'' of controversy coming from America from both believers and non believers alike who are either opposed to follwing YHWH or at least an antagonistic depiction of him. In Japan, it is considered a resaonble option largely because their values system promotes social harmony, cooperation and compromise, and ideas such as destabilizing said social harmony for the sake of freedom are [[ValuesDissonance widely considered selfish and wrong there.]] The issue is that despite the Heavenly theme of Law, its endgoals are notably Socialist (''Devil Survivor 2'' has a Law ending outright called Egalitarianism) and Utilitarian in manner due to its egalitarian collectivist mentality, albeit one brought about by any means necessary. This further makes Law Controversial as while both Japan and the West feared a socialist take over, with the TotalitarianUtilitarian becoming a standard villainous archetype, Japan's existing collectivism makes Law appear to be a tempting option the same way Japan also considers Chaos tempting as it too as a history of celebrating the warrior ethos and the freedom of great men to bring about change. [[http://gonintendo.com/stories/125558-shin-megami-tensei-law-chaos-and-the-american-way This bit]] of ValuesDissonance is practically lampshaded in ''Strange Journey'' where the Law Hero is Zelenin, a Russian whose country has a history of Christian and Socialist dominance while the Chaos Hero Jiminez is American, a nation that prides individuality even if it means the strong will dominate the weak.
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** The Law-alignment from ''SMT'' proper is this for its belief in a WorldOfSilence where all worships [[GodIsEvil YHVH]] for eternity, getting ''tons'' of controversy coming from America from both believers and non believers alike who are either opposed to follwing following YHWH or at least an antagonistic depiction of him. In Japan, it is considered a resaonble reasonable option largely because their values system promotes social harmony, cooperation and compromise, and ideas such as destabilizing said social harmony for the sake of freedom are [[ValuesDissonance widely considered selfish and wrong there.]] The issue is that despite the Heavenly heavenly theme of Law, its endgoals end goals are notably Socialist socialist (''Devil Survivor 2'' has a Law ending outright called Egalitarianism) and Utilitarian utilitarian in manner due to its egalitarian collectivist mentality, albeit one brought about by any means necessary. This further makes Law Controversial controversial as while both Japan and the West feared a socialist take over, with the TotalitarianUtilitarian becoming a standard villainous archetype, Japan's existing collectivism makes Law appear to be a tempting option the same way Japan also considers Chaos tempting as it too as a history of celebrating the warrior ethos and the freedom of great men to bring about change. [[http://gonintendo.com/stories/125558-shin-megami-tensei-law-chaos-and-the-american-way This bit]] of ValuesDissonance is practically lampshaded in ''Strange Journey'' where the Law Hero is Zelenin, a Russian whose country has a history of Christian and Socialist dominance while the Chaos Hero Jiminez is American, a nation that prides individuality even if it means the strong will dominate the weak.
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*** The release of ''Strange Journey Redux'' and ''Devil Surivor 2'' on the other hand has finally put chaos into this position. One of the primary arguments against chaos is that true freedom is impossible if it's based on MightMakesRight, as the strong will inevitably oppress the weak. Social Darwinism being a core element of fascism (while ''Devil Survivor 2'' and ''Strange Journey Redux'' show law in practice resembling ''Communism'' more) with the Tyrant race being associated with chaos doesn't help too. Walter's adamant desire to enforce MightMakesRight (Despite being lower class himself), as well as Yamato's world governed by self interest in ''Devil Survivor 2'', now gets chaos heroes branded as hypocrites only concerned with their own freedom, whilst being free to oppress others. However, the new chaos ending in ''Redux'' shows that chaos is capable of advocating for a world of infinite possibility where humans, Gods and demons can coexist and choose ''not'' get in each other's way. Also, fans of chaos scoff at the idea of hypocrisy, as Lucifer, Walter and other chaos heroes always concede defeat if you beat them as per their ideologies.
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*** The release of ''Strange Journey Redux'' and ''Devil Surivor Survivor 2'' on the other hand has finally put chaos into this position. One of the primary arguments against chaos is that true freedom is impossible if it's based on MightMakesRight, as the strong will inevitably oppress the weak. Social Darwinism being a core element of fascism (while ''Devil Survivor 2'' and ''Strange Journey Redux'' show law in practice resembling ''Communism'' more) with the Tyrant race being associated with chaos doesn't help too. Walter's adamant desire to enforce MightMakesRight (Despite being lower class himself), as well as Yamato's world governed by self interest in ''Devil Survivor 2'', now gets chaos heroes branded as hypocrites only concerned with their own freedom, whilst being free to oppress others. However, the new chaos ending in ''Redux'' shows that chaos is capable of advocating for a world of infinite possibility where humans, Gods and demons can coexist and choose ''not'' get in each other's way. Also, fans of chaos scoff at the idea of hypocrisy, as Lucifer, Walter and other chaos heroes always concede defeat if you beat them as per their ideologies.
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** The way fusion is handled in ''VideoGame/DevilSurvivor'', ''VideoGame/DevilSurvivor2'', ''VideoGame/{{Persona 4}} Golden'', and ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIV''. Some complain that part of the fun of fusion is unpredictable RNG result and that being able to choose exactly which skills to pass on to the fusion result makes for a boring and excessively forgiving gameplay experience. Others see it as a great AntiFrustrationFeature and point out that in practice, random skill inheritance boils down to tediously rerolling fusions over and over just to get the skills the player wants. As one of the main complaints for the ''Nocutrne'' HD remaster was ''not'' using the newer fusion system, it appears the old RNG love is falling out of favor, and fans were happy when it was later updated.
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** The way fusion is handled in ''VideoGame/DevilSurvivor'', ''VideoGame/DevilSurvivor2'', ''VideoGame/{{Persona 4}} Golden'', and ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIV''. Some complain that part of the fun of fusion is unpredictable RNG result and that being able to choose exactly which skills to pass on to the fusion result makes for a boring and excessively forgiving gameplay experience. Others see it as a great AntiFrustrationFeature and point out that in practice, random skill inheritance boils down to tediously rerolling fusions over and over just to get the skills the player wants. As one of the main complaints for the ''Nocutrne'' ''Nocturne'' HD remaster was ''not'' using the newer fusion system, it appears the old RNG love is falling out of favor, and fans were happy when it was later updated.
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** Black Frost. He's an [[DiscOneNuke excellent early/mid-game demon/Persona]], and is a [[spoiler: party leader in some routes of ''Devil Survivor''.]]
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** Black Frost. He's an [[DiscOneNuke excellent early/mid-game demon/Persona]], and and, in ''Devil Survivor'', is a [[spoiler: party leader in some routes of ''Devil Survivor''.routes.]]
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** In the Japanese fandom, Alice and Moh Shuvuu appears to have quite the following as well.
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** In the Japanese fandom, Alice and Moh Shuvuu Muu Shuwuu appears to have quite the following as well.
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** Calling mainline ''Shin Megami Tensei'' titles or non-''Persona'' spinoffs "''Persona''" is a great way to get called out for your ignorance. This comes from the fact that tthe ''Persona'' games are extremely popular while the rest of the series is, relatively, very niche (although that seems to be changing in more recent times). Going online for less than two minutes will tell you that the ''Persona'' series is a spin-off of ''Shin Megami Tensei'' and not the other way around.
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** Calling mainline ''Shin Megami Tensei'' titles or non-''Persona'' spinoffs "''Persona''" is a great way to get called out for your ignorance. This comes from the fact that tthe the ''Persona'' games are extremely popular while the rest of the series is, relatively, very niche (although that seems to be changing in more recent times). Going online for less than two minutes will tell you that the ''Persona'' series is a spin-off of ''Shin Megami Tensei'' and not the other way around.
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*** However, this could also be a reflection of exactly ''what's'' wrong with him creating KnightTemplar Angels as well. As SMTII makes it clear that the Archangels' own psychotic belief can give rise to a [[ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve fake YHVH]]. If their own belief can create a fake one, then doesn't it stand to reason that angels in general can make God fit their view of their creator?
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*** However, this could also be a reflection of exactly ''what's'' wrong with him creating KnightTemplar Angels as well. As SMTII ''SMT II'' makes it clear that the Archangels' own psychotic belief can give rise to a [[ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve fake YHVH]]. If their own belief can create a fake one, then doesn't it stand to reason that angels in general can make God fit their view of their creator?
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** Play a real ''Shin Megami Tensei''/''Shin Megoomi Tensay'' game! [[labelnote:Explanation]]A rather infamous video has two men stage a debate embodying the countless Mainline vs Persona arguments in the fanbase. The one arguing for mainline says this partway in, and both sides of the fanbase have run wild with it. The franchise name is sometimes butchered like the original video. What does or doesn't qualify as a real ''Shin Megami Tensei'' game, other than actual mainline games and modern ''Persona'', is up to debate. So much so that many joke ''Jack Bros'', the Virutal Boy puzzle spin off, is the only real ''SMT'' game despite being far removed from all its mechanics.[[/labelnote]]
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** Play a real ''Shin Megami Tensei''/''Shin Megoomi Tensay'' game! [[labelnote:Explanation]]A rather infamous video has two men stage a debate embodying the countless Mainline vs Persona arguments in the fanbase. The one arguing for mainline says this partway in, and both sides of the fanbase have run wild with it. The franchise name is sometimes butchered like the original video. What does or doesn't qualify as a real ''Shin Megami Tensei'' game, other than actual mainline games and modern ''Persona'', is up to debate. So much so that many joke ''Jack Bros'', the Virutal Virtual Boy puzzle spin off, is the only real ''SMT'' game despite being far removed from all its mechanics.[[/labelnote]]
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** [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlJrEwEMIpM Vote Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne]] [[labelnote:Explanation]]Series/XPlay, in the buildup for their 2004 award show, made a commercial that portrayed ''Nocturne'', which would take the award for Best RPG, as a political challenger against an incumbent ''VideoGame/KingdomHeartsII''. The sheer absurdity of an old couple talking about a pair of video games like politicians caught on, and even ''Atlus themselves'' left a comment asking "What in the damn hell is this?"[[/labelnote]]
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** [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlJrEwEMIpM Vote Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne]] [[labelnote:Explanation]]Series/XPlay, in the buildup for their 2004 award show, made a commercial that portrayed ''Nocturne'', which would take the award for Best RPG, as a political challenger against an incumbent ''VideoGame/KingdomHeartsII''. The sheer absurdity of an old couple talking about a pair of video games like politicians caught on, and even ''Atlus themselves'' left a comment asking asking, "What in the damn hell is this?"[[/labelnote]]
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** [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1WeimmTGF4 The Fiend theme]] from ''Nocturne'', easily well-known due to being the battle theme of the infamous WakeUpCallBoss Matador. It would later be used again for the Fiends in ''IMAGINE'', ''SMT IV'', and ''IV Apocalypse''.
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** [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1WeimmTGF4 The Fiend theme]] from ''Nocturne'', easily well-known due to being the battle theme of the infamous WakeUpCallBoss Matador. It would later be used again remixed for the Fiends in ''IMAGINE'', ''SMT IV'', and ''IV Apocalypse''.Apocalypse'', and ''V''.
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* CommonKnowledge: The idea that the mainline ''Shin Megami Tensei'' series is this dead serious and grim dark series is a surprisingly enduring perception of the series. While more serious than most JRPG series out there, it is not afraid to use the occasional rather quirky humor and levity when the situation calls for it.
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* GeniusBonus:
** The recurring tradition of Rangda having an Reflect Physical trait is a reference to the Barong Dance where warriors set on attacking the witch Rangda fall into her trance and instead turn their daggers against themselves. In the Shin Megami Tensei games, reflecting physical attacks involves the user tricked into thinking they attacked themselves.
** The recurring tradition of Rangda having an Reflect Physical trait is a reference to the Barong Dance where warriors set on attacking the witch Rangda fall into her trance and instead turn their daggers against themselves. In the Shin Megami Tensei games, reflecting physical attacks involves the user tricked into thinking they attacked themselves.
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Some Anvils Need To Be Dropped got cut.
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* {{Anvilicious}}: Quite a number of entries outright depict the Neutral Ending as the good[=\=]canon ending, and each other side has zealots on each of them. SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped, however, since the best of both worlds is the best option in a lot of real world situations, and, [[Administrivia/RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment without getting into too much detail that can be controversial]], "my way or the highway" is the though process of the farthest on either side of an issue.
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* {{Anvilicious}}: Quite a number of entries outright depict the Neutral Ending as the good[=\=]canon ending, and each other side has zealots on each of them. SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped, Not that there isn't truth to this, however, since the best of both worlds is the best option in a lot of real world situations, and, [[Administrivia/RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment without getting into too much detail that can be controversial]], "my way or the highway" is the though process of the farthest on either side of an issue.
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* {{Anvilicious}}: Quite a number of entries outright depict the Neutral Ending as the good[=\=]canon ending, and each other side has zealots on each of them. SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped, however, since the best of both worlds is the best option in a lot of real world situations, and, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment without getting into too much detail that can be controversial]], "my way or the highway" is the though process of the farthest on either side of an issue.
to:
* {{Anvilicious}}: Quite a number of entries outright depict the Neutral Ending as the good[=\=]canon ending, and each other side has zealots on each of them. SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped, however, since the best of both worlds is the best option in a lot of real world situations, and, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment [[Administrivia/RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment without getting into too much detail that can be controversial]], "my way or the highway" is the though process of the farthest on either side of an issue.
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* {{Anvilicious}}: Quite a number of entries outright depict the Neutral Ending as the good[=\=]canon ending, and each other side has zealots on each of them. SomeAnvilsNeedToBrDropped, however, since the best of both worlds is the best option in a lot of real world situations, and, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement without getting into too much detail that can be controversial]], "my way or the highway" is the though process of the farthest on either side of an issue.
to:
* {{Anvilicious}}: Quite a number of entries outright depict the Neutral Ending as the good[=\=]canon ending, and each other side has zealots on each of them. SomeAnvilsNeedToBrDropped, SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped, however, since the best of both worlds is the best option in a lot of real world situations, and, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment without getting into too much detail that can be controversial]], "my way or the highway" is the though process of the farthest on either side of an issue.
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* {{Anvilicious}}: Quite a number of entries outright depict the Neutral Ending as the good[=\=]canon ending, and each other side has zealots on each of them. SomeAnvilsNeedToBrDropped, however, since the best of both worlds is the best option in a lot of real world situations, and, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement without getting into too much detail that can be controversial]], "my way or the highway" is the though process of the farthest on either side of an issue.
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* FandomHeresy: This is how fans view the individual alignments: "Chaos = total freedom ([[DracoInLeatherPants never mind its drawbacks]]), Neutral = a balance between freedom and a sense of order, Law = horrible iron-fist theocratic dictatorship with no redeeming qualities and you should feel bad if you side with it." The merits of Chaos and Neutrality can be debated, but supporting Law will get you mocked.
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* FandomHeresy: FandomHeresy:
** This is how fans view the individual alignments: "Chaos = total freedom ([[DracoInLeatherPants never mind its drawbacks]]), Neutral = a balance between freedom and a sense of order, Law = horrible iron-fist theocratic dictatorship with no redeeming qualities and you should feel bad if you side with it." The merits of Chaos and Neutrality can be debated, but supporting Law will get youmocked.mocked.
** Criticizing Kaneko's art as a whole[[note]]Criticizing individual designs is generally seen as fine as even he had his occasional stinkers.[[/note]] or saying that the likes of Doi, Soejima or, heaven forbid, the guest artists for ''SMT IV'' are superior is seen as a surefire way to bring the fans rage down upon you.
** This is how fans view the individual alignments: "Chaos = total freedom ([[DracoInLeatherPants never mind its drawbacks]]), Neutral = a balance between freedom and a sense of order, Law = horrible iron-fist theocratic dictatorship with no redeeming qualities and you should feel bad if you side with it." The merits of Chaos and Neutrality can be debated, but supporting Law will get you
** Criticizing Kaneko's art as a whole[[note]]Criticizing individual designs is generally seen as fine as even he had his occasional stinkers.[[/note]] or saying that the likes of Doi, Soejima or, heaven forbid, the guest artists for ''SMT IV'' are superior is seen as a surefire way to bring the fans rage down upon you.
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* MST3KMantra: Satan is based on the Jewish view of Satan, the QuirkyMinibossSquad has the Catholic Raphael and non-canonical Uriel, and [[spoiler:only a few people will be allowed into the Millennium Kingdom]] in ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiII'', which mirrors (the Hollywood version of) Jehovah's Witness teachings and those of far-right American Protestants. Thor, Mikazuchi, and various other thunder gods [[AllMythsAreTrue co-exist]] and move on.
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* DracoInLeatherPants: A lot of players advocate for Chaos as the ''good'' ideology. Let's review: in nearly all mainline games save for II and Nocturne, Chaos' objective is to bring about either a SocialDarwinist hell where the strong brutalize the weak, or [[ApocalypseHow Multiversal Metaphysical Annihilation]]. While Law's responsible for some undisputedly nasty things, that doesn't mean that Chaos isn't equally nightmarish.
* DrinkingGame: [[DrinkingGame/ShinMegamiTensei here]]. This being a NintendoHard franchise, prepare to drink ''a lot.''
* DrinkingGame: [[DrinkingGame/ShinMegamiTensei here]]. This being a NintendoHard franchise, prepare to drink ''a lot.''
to:
* DracoInLeatherPants: A lot of players advocate for Chaos as the ''good'' ideology. Let's review: in nearly all mainline games save for II and Nocturne, Chaos' objective is to bring about either a SocialDarwinist hell where the strong brutalize the weak, or [[ApocalypseHow Multiversal Metaphysical Annihilation]]. While Law's responsible for some undisputedly nasty things, that doesn't mean that Chaos isn't equally nightmarish.
nightmarish. This could even fall into IntendedAudienceReaction and ShownTheirWork as one of the main things taught about the devil in an Abrahamic context is that he will adopt every charismatic DarkIsNotEvil trick in the book to hide his nefarious intentions while the forces of God fall into GoodIsNotNice and GoodIsNotSoft, even if "good" here is a stretch.
* DrinkingGame: [[DrinkingGame/ShinMegamiTensei here]]. This being a NintendoHard franchise, prepare to drink ''a lot.''''
* DrinkingGame: [[DrinkingGame/ShinMegamiTensei here]]. This being a NintendoHard franchise, prepare to drink ''a lot.
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** The Law-alignment from ''SMT'' proper is this for its belief in a WorldOfSilence where all worships [[GodIsEvil YHVH]] for eternity, getting ''tons'' of controversy coming from America. That said, it's actually considered a reasonable option in Japan, largely because their values system promotes social harmony, cooperation and compromise, and ideas such as destabilizing said social harmony for the sake of freedom are [[ValuesDissonance widely considered selfish and wrong there.]] It helps that Christianity isn't as big in Japan; had the original games been released in the US in the 90's, cartridge-burning protests would've likely ensued from MoralGuardian parents. [[http://gonintendo.com/stories/125558-shin-megami-tensei-law-chaos-and-the-american-way This link really sums it up nicely.]] Recently, more favourable depictions of law in ''Strange Journey Redux, Devil Survivor Overclocked'' and ''Devil Survivor 2'' have made law more popular in the west, especially whenever social Darwinism begins to get looked down upon for unrelated reasons.
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** It was thought that this trope was the reason why ''Atlus'' hesitated to release the games outside of Japan since they featured antagonistic depictions of religious figures still in worship such as the Abrahamic God and Hindu figures. ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIVApocalypse'' for instance got flack from Hindu Indians due to its depiction of Krishna.
** ''VideoGame/RaidouKuzunohaVsTheSoullessArmy'' is controversial in parts of Asia as despite the game being set in an AlternateHistory of extended Taisho democracy with villains themed after Fascist Japan, the game was still set in the Imperial era which is associated with bad memories of atrocities across the Pacific. Thus, Raidou was omitted in the HD Remaster of ''Nocturne'' in said parts of Asia.
** The Law-alignment from ''SMT'' proper is this for its belief in a WorldOfSilence where all worships [[GodIsEvil YHVH]] for eternity, getting ''tons'' of controversy coming fromAmerica. That said, it's actually America from both believers and non believers alike who are either opposed to follwing YHWH or at least an antagonistic depiction of him. In Japan, it is considered a reasonable resaonble option in Japan, largely because their values system promotes social harmony, cooperation and compromise, and ideas such as destabilizing said social harmony for the sake of freedom are [[ValuesDissonance widely considered selfish and wrong there.]] It helps The issue is that Christianity isn't as big in Japan; had despite the original games been released Heavenly theme of Law, its endgoals are notably Socialist (''Devil Survivor 2'' has a Law ending outright called Egalitarianism) and Utilitarian in manner due to its egalitarian collectivist mentality, albeit one brought about by any means necessary. This further makes Law Controversial as while both Japan and the US in West feared a socialist take over, with the 90's, cartridge-burning protests would've likely ensued from MoralGuardian parents.TotalitarianUtilitarian becoming a standard villainous archetype, Japan's existing collectivism makes Law appear to be a tempting option the same way Japan also considers Chaos tempting as it too as a history of celebrating the warrior ethos and the freedom of great men to bring about change. [[http://gonintendo.com/stories/125558-shin-megami-tensei-law-chaos-and-the-american-way This link really sums bit]] of ValuesDissonance is practically lampshaded in ''Strange Journey'' where the Law Hero is Zelenin, a Russian whose country has a history of Christian and Socialist dominance while the Chaos Hero Jiminez is American, a nation that prides individuality even if it up nicely.]] Recently, means the strong will dominate the weak.
*** That said, more favourable depictions of law in ''Strange Journey Redux, Devil Survivor Overclocked'' and ''Devil Survivor 2'' have made law more popular in the west, especiallywhenever as extreme social Darwinism begins to get looked down upon darwinism is ''also'' loathed. The story trailers for unrelated reasons. ''Shin Megami Tensei V'' also excitedly caused fans to associate the Nahobino with Law, well before the game's release.
** ''VideoGame/RaidouKuzunohaVsTheSoullessArmy'' is controversial in parts of Asia as despite the game being set in an AlternateHistory of extended Taisho democracy with villains themed after Fascist Japan, the game was still set in the Imperial era which is associated with bad memories of atrocities across the Pacific. Thus, Raidou was omitted in the HD Remaster of ''Nocturne'' in said parts of Asia.
** The Law-alignment from ''SMT'' proper is this for its belief in a WorldOfSilence where all worships [[GodIsEvil YHVH]] for eternity, getting ''tons'' of controversy coming from
*** That said, more favourable depictions of law in ''Strange Journey Redux, Devil Survivor Overclocked'' and ''Devil Survivor 2'' have made law more popular in the west, especially
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** In the West, the games that do get released and aren't ''Persona 3'', ''4'', ''5'', or any of their spinoffs are under-the-radar {{Cult Classic}}s at best and bashed for not being ''Persona'' at worst. ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIV'' was hit hard, as it was released around the time that ''Persona'' really started to skyrocket in popularity outside of Japan; see BrokenBase below. As for the franchise as a whole, many Westerners are [[ItsHardSoItSucks put off by the intense difficulty]] that borders on [[LuckBasedMission requiring sheer luck]] and excessive amounts of preparation at times.
** The Law-alignment from ''SMT'' proper is this for its belief in a WorldOfSilence where all worships [[GodIsEvil YHVH]] for eternity, getting ''tons'' of controversy coming from America. That said, it's actually considered a reasonable option in Japan, largely because their values system promotes social harmony, cooperation and compromise, and ideas such as destabilizing said social harmony for the sake of freedom are [[ValuesDissonance widely considered selfish and wrong there.]] It helps that Christianity isn't as big in Japan; had the original games been released in the US in the 90's, cartridge-burning protests would've likely ensued from MoralGuardian parents. [[http://gonintendo.com/stories/125558-shin-megami-tensei-law-chaos-and-the-american-way This link really sums it up nicely.]] Recently, more favourable depictions of law in ''Strange Journey Redux, Devil Survivor Overclocked'' and ''Devil Survivor 2'' have made law more popular in the west, especially whenever social Darwinism begins to get looked down upon for unrelated reasons.
** The Law-alignment from ''SMT'' proper is this for its belief in a WorldOfSilence where all worships [[GodIsEvil YHVH]] for eternity, getting ''tons'' of controversy coming from America. That said, it's actually considered a reasonable option in Japan, largely because their values system promotes social harmony, cooperation and compromise, and ideas such as destabilizing said social harmony for the sake of freedom are [[ValuesDissonance widely considered selfish and wrong there.]] It helps that Christianity isn't as big in Japan; had the original games been released in the US in the 90's, cartridge-burning protests would've likely ensued from MoralGuardian parents. [[http://gonintendo.com/stories/125558-shin-megami-tensei-law-chaos-and-the-american-way This link really sums it up nicely.]] Recently, more favourable depictions of law in ''Strange Journey Redux, Devil Survivor Overclocked'' and ''Devil Survivor 2'' have made law more popular in the west, especially whenever social Darwinism begins to get looked down upon for unrelated reasons.
to:
** In the West, the games that do get released and aren't ''Persona 3'', ''4'', ''5'', or any of their spinoffs are under-the-radar {{Cult Classic}}s at best and bashed for not being ''Persona'' at worst. ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIV'' was hit hard, as it was released around the time that ''Persona'' really started to skyrocket in popularity outside of Japan; see BrokenBase below. As for the franchise as a whole, many Westerners are [[ItsHardSoItSucks put off by the intense difficulty]] that borders on [[LuckBasedMission requiring sheer luck]] and excessive amounts of preparation at times.
times. Atlus West's marketing of the HD Remaster of ''Nocturne'' appears to have been directed to avoid this trope, taking advantage of the mass amount of attention the game got at the Nintendo Online Direct to play up things about the game that were memetic in the West such as Dante from ''VideoGame/DevilMayCry'' being featured. It helps that Nocturne is the most iconic non Persona 3-5 entry in the series in the west, enjoying a bit of fame alongside ''Persona 3'' before ''Persona 4'' turned all western eyes on Modern Persona. Regardless, the hesitancy to get into older difficult games is why Atlus hasn't focused on releasing games older than Nocturne in the west on modern platforms.
** The Law-alignment from ''SMT'' proper is this for its belief in a WorldOfSilence where all worships [[GodIsEvil YHVH]] for eternity, getting ''tons'' of controversy coming from America. That said, it's actually considered a reasonable option in Japan, largely because their values system promotes social harmony, cooperation and compromise, and ideas such as destabilizing said social harmony for the sake of freedom are [[ValuesDissonance widely considered selfish and wrong there.]] It helps that Christianity isn't as big in Japan; had the original games been released in the US in the 90's, cartridge-burning protests would've likely ensued from MoralGuardian parents. [[http://gonintendo.com/stories/125558-shin-megami-tensei-law-chaos-and-the-american-way This link really sums it up nicely.]] Recently, more favourable depictions of law in ''Strange Journey Redux, Devil Survivor Overclocked'' and ''Devil Survivor 2'' have made law more popular in the west, especially whenever social Darwinism begins to get looked down upon for unrelated reasons.
** The Law-alignment from ''SMT'' proper is this for its belief in a WorldOfSilence where all worships [[GodIsEvil YHVH]] for eternity, getting ''tons'' of controversy coming from America. That said, it's actually considered a reasonable option in Japan, largely because their values system promotes social harmony, cooperation and compromise, and ideas such as destabilizing said social harmony for the sake of freedom are [[ValuesDissonance widely considered selfish and wrong there.]] It helps that Christianity isn't as big in Japan; had the original games been released in the US in the 90's, cartridge-burning protests would've likely ensued from MoralGuardian parents. [[http://gonintendo.com/stories/125558-shin-megami-tensei-law-chaos-and-the-american-way This link really sums it up nicely.]] Recently, more favourable depictions of law in ''Strange Journey Redux, Devil Survivor Overclocked'' and ''Devil Survivor 2'' have made law more popular in the west, especially whenever social Darwinism begins to get looked down upon for unrelated reasons.
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* OlderThanTheyThink: The series started using the 3D models of the demons in the lesser known title Shin Megami Tensei NINE and not Nocturne as it's commonly believed.
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* OlderThanTheyThink: The series started using the 3D models of the demons in the lesser known title Shin ''Shin Megami Tensei NINE NINE'' and not Nocturne as it's commonly believed.
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* FandomEnragingMisconception: Fans refer to the franchise as ''Megami Tensei'', so calling it ''Shin Megami Tensei'' will often get you corrected to the former.
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* FandomEnragingMisconception: FandomEnragingMisconception:
** Fans refer to the franchise as ''Megami Tensei'', so calling it ''Shin Megami Tensei'' will often get you corrected to theformer.former.
** Calling the enemies outside of ''Persona 3'', ''4'', and ''5'' "Shadows" instead of "Demons" is this. Even worse is calling them "Personas" in a non-''Persona'' game.
** Saying that the franchise is a clone of ''Franchise/{{Pokemon}}''. ''VideoGame/MegamiTensei'' actually did the [[{{Mons}} "collecting enemy monsters to fight for you"]] thing ''[[OlderThanTheyThink first]]''.
** Calling mainline ''Shin Megami Tensei'' titles or non-''Persona'' spinoffs "''Persona''" is a great way to get called out for your ignorance. This comes from the fact that tthe ''Persona'' games are extremely popular while the rest of the series is, relatively, very niche (although that seems to be changing in more recent times). Going online for less than two minutes will tell you that the ''Persona'' series is a spin-off of ''Shin Megami Tensei'' and not the other way around.
** Fans refer to the franchise as ''Megami Tensei'', so calling it ''Shin Megami Tensei'' will often get you corrected to the
** Calling the enemies outside of ''Persona 3'', ''4'', and ''5'' "Shadows" instead of "Demons" is this. Even worse is calling them "Personas" in a non-''Persona'' game.
** Saying that the franchise is a clone of ''Franchise/{{Pokemon}}''. ''VideoGame/MegamiTensei'' actually did the [[{{Mons}} "collecting enemy monsters to fight for you"]] thing ''[[OlderThanTheyThink first]]''.
** Calling mainline ''Shin Megami Tensei'' titles or non-''Persona'' spinoffs "''Persona''" is a great way to get called out for your ignorance. This comes from the fact that tthe ''Persona'' games are extremely popular while the rest of the series is, relatively, very niche (although that seems to be changing in more recent times). Going online for less than two minutes will tell you that the ''Persona'' series is a spin-off of ''Shin Megami Tensei'' and not the other way around.
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** ''Shin Megami Tensei'' is a ''Persona'' spin-off [[labelnote:Explanation]]Many people are more familiar with ''Persona'' than with ''Shin Megami Tensei'', so some might think that the latter is the spin-off of the former when the reverse is actually true. [=MegaTen=] fans made jokes about it. This rose in popularity after the July 2020 Nintendo Direct Mini.[[/labelnote]]
** ''Persona'': Defeat your enemies together with your friends. ''Shin Megami Tensei'': Kill your friends. [[labelnote:Explanation]]The contrast between the two series' respective treatment of each protagonist's social circles is... notable. ''Persona'' tends to have character-based plots usually resolved through ThePowerOfFriendship, not to mention the Social Link/Confidant system introduced by ''VideoGame/Persona3'' which can provide significant gameplay bonuses. Meanwhile, the main series protagonists will have to inevitably fight against some of their acquaintances (especially those who become "alignment representatives" and generally have to be defeated if the player chooses an opposing philosophy).[[/labelnote]]
** ''Persona'': Defeat your enemies together with your friends. ''Shin Megami Tensei'': Kill your friends. [[labelnote:Explanation]]The contrast between the two series' respective treatment of each protagonist's social circles is... notable. ''Persona'' tends to have character-based plots usually resolved through ThePowerOfFriendship, not to mention the Social Link/Confidant system introduced by ''VideoGame/Persona3'' which can provide significant gameplay bonuses. Meanwhile, the main series protagonists will have to inevitably fight against some of their acquaintances (especially those who become "alignment representatives" and generally have to be defeated if the player chooses an opposing philosophy).[[/labelnote]]
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** ''Shin Megami Tensei'' is a ''Persona'' spin-off [[labelnote:Explanation]]Many people are more familiar with ''Persona'' than with ''Shin Megami Tensei'', so some might think that the latter is the spin-off of the former when the reverse is actually true. [=MegaTen=] fans made jokes about it. This rose in popularity after the July 2020 Nintendo Direct Mini. Another variant of the meme, which saw light during the E3 2021 Nintendo Direct, is to say that ''Shin Megami Tensei'' is a ''Persona'' rip-off, merely because of the sheer ignorance of the statement.[[/labelnote]]
** ''Persona'':Defeat your enemies together Team up with your friends. friends to defeat the Shadows. ''Shin Megami Tensei'': Kill Team up with the Demons to kill your friends. [[labelnote:Explanation]]The contrast between the two series' respective treatment of each protagonist's social circles is... notable. ''Persona'' tends to have character-based plots usually resolved through ThePowerOfFriendship, not to mention the Social Link/Confidant system introduced by ''VideoGame/Persona3'' which can provide significant gameplay bonuses. Meanwhile, the main series protagonists will have to inevitably fight against some of their acquaintances (especially those who become "alignment representatives" and generally have to be defeated if the player chooses an opposing philosophy).[[/labelnote]]
** ''Persona'':
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** ''Persona'': Defeat your enemies together with your friends. ''Shin Megami Tensei'': Kill your friends. [[labelnote:Explanation]]The contrast between the two series' respective treatment of each protagonist's social circles is... notable. ''Persona'' tends to have character-based plots usually resolved through ThePowerOfFriendship, not to mention the Social Link/Confidant system introduced by ''VideoGame/Persona3'' which can provide significant gameplay bonuses. Meanwhile, the main series protagonists will have to inevitably fight against some of their acquaintances (especially those who become "alignment representatives" and generally have to be defeated if the player chooses an opposing philosophy).[[/labelnote]]
