History YMMV / MageTheAscension

* GameBreaker: Mages, in general, can wipe the floor with almost any other supernatural creature in the World of Darkness if they get in the first shot. One of the reasons why White Wolf was notoriously less than helpful when it came to running crossover games was that it becomes ''incredibly'' difficult to challenge a mixed cadre of supernaturals; a mage or two with some vampires and/or werewolves running interference for them can make mincemeat out of what are supposedly world-threatening encounters.

** Even in a game where the entire point is that the players start breaking said game from minute one of the first session, ritual magic stands out as just completely blowing even what vague notion of balance there was into vacuum, because it allowed you to pool your dice with other people, and then to pool _that_ with previous rolls limited only by your character's ability to stay awake to keep casting. With a three or four man group, it wasn't unusual to have a _hundred_ successes to work with in a game built around the expectation that even a powerful mage might have three or four to parcel out into spell range, duration, power, and so on. Two points in the correspondence sphere and your target's birth name, and you could drop all of those dice in the form of unavoidable damage on top of the target, easily overcoming any defenses and vaporizing them and anyone they've ever so much as touched. Sure, Paradox would come for you, but you could avoid that by spreading it over your ritual-mates.
** When compared to the other supernaturals, mages are all MagikarpPower, as they start with little and rather unstable powers, their powers are expensive and unlike the others, they are just straight humans, with no super-healing, resistance to bullets or any other in-born advantages outside of perks (and even those are double-edged). However, once they rack more arete, more spheres, higher sphere ratings, enough backgrounds to not have to even be on the same continent as their opponent and can throw things the others cannot conceive as possible, and grow outside of that initial discovery, mages can become absolute powerhouses that can make even elder vampires remember fear.

*** The post-Revised Convention Books have come to embrace this view of them; the developers have gone on to state that the primary reason the Technocracy is still antagonistic is because they haven't realized they are in dire need of reforms and a respect for freedom as a concept, while the Traditions have actually undergone some soul-searching and asked themselves why they have skeletons in the closet. ''Technocracy: Reloaded'' has largely taken this theme and ran with it; by the time of the book's release, the Technocracy has finally reached the point where the majority of its members have acknowledged that they've reached the 'adapt or die' threshold, but the only question of course is ''how'', with just as many Technocrats pushing for them to just declare the Ascension War for all intents and purposes over and won and to focus on more ''serious'' threats like the Nephandi, as there are hardliners pushing for a full-on return to the [[FinalSolution Pogrom]].

* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: Several elements of the Traditions, most infamously the Order of Hermes and the Verbena, are ''intended'' to be the morally-grey AntiHero on a mage team at worst, but their highly-reactionary views on many things, like democratic egalitarianism or modern medicine and industrial civilization respectively in the case of the above, see many players calling them [[EvilReactionary worse than the Technocrats they fight against]], since even the corrupt and stagnant elements of the Technocracy at least ''in theory'' believe in progressive ideals, even if they're hypocrites about them in practice. It doesn't help that sometimes the books try to treat these factions as [[HardTruthAesop dropping truth-bombs everywhere]], [[JerkassHasAPoint no matter how mean they are about it]], but (especially in the earlier editions), said truth-bombs tend towards [[ArtisticLicenseMedicine ridiculous packs]] [[DatedHistory of lies]], more informed by what the counterculture ''wanted'' to be true than actual, verifiable facts, immediately creating a strong, justified bias in the Technocracy's favor against them. Later editions have frantically tried to backpedal, attempting to reframe the narrative to credit fewer pieces of human progressive history to the Technocracy and more to the Traditions, like crediting the Verbena with quality-of-life philosophy in medicine, but [[OnceDoneNeverForgotten the damage is done]].

* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: Several elements of the Traditions, most infamously the Order of Hermes and the Verbena, are ''intended'' to be the morally-grey AntiHero on a mage team at worst, but their highly-reactionary views on many things, like democratic egalitarianism or modern medicine and industrial civilization, respectively, in the case of the above, see many players calling them [[EvilReactionary worse than the Technocrats they fight against]], since even the corrupt and stagnant elements of the Technocracy at least ''in theory'' believe in progressive ideals, even if they're hypocrites about them in practice. It doesn't help that sometimes the books try to treat these factions as [[HardTruthAesop dropping truth-bombs everywhere]], [[JerkassHasAPoint no matter how mean they are about it]], but (especially in the earlier editions), said truth-bombs tend towards [[ArtisticLicenseMedicine ridiculous packs]] [[DatedHistory of lies]], more informed by what the counterculture ''wanted'' to be true than actual, verifiable facts, immediately creating a strong, justified bias in the Technocracy's favor against them. Later editions have frantically tried to backpedal, attempting to reframe the narrative to credit fewer pieces of human progressive history to the Technocracy and more to the Traditions, like crediting the Verbena with quality-of-life philosophy in medicine, but [[OnceDoneNeverForgotten the damage is done]].

* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: Several elements of the Traditions, most infamously the Order of Hermes and the Verbena, are ''intended'' to be the morally-grey AntiHero on a mage team at worst, but their highly-reactionary views on things like democratic egalitarianism or modern medicine and industrial civilization, respectively, see many players calling them [[EvilReactionary worse than the Technocrats they fight against]], since even the corrupt elements of the Technocracy at least ''in theory'' believe in these things, even if they're hypocrites about them in practice. It doesn't help that sometimes the books try to treat these factions as [[HardTruthAesop dropping truth-bombs everywhere]], [[JerkassHasAPoint no matter how mean they are about it]], but (especially in the earlier editions), said truth-bombs tend towards [[ArtisticLicenseMedicine ridiculous packs]] [[DatedHistory of lies]], more informed by what the counterculture ''wanted'' to be true than actual, verifiable facts, immediately creating a strong, justified bias in the Technocracy's favor against them.

* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: Several elements of the Traditions, most infamously the Order of Hermes and the Verbena, are ''intended'' to be the morally-grey AntiHero on a mage team at worst, but their highly-reactionary views on things like democratic egalitarianism or modern medicine and industrial civilization, respectively, see many players calling them [[EvilReactionary worse than the Technocrats they fight against]], since even the corrupt elements of the Technocracy at least ''in theory'' believe in these things, even if they're hypocrites about them in practice. It doesn't help that sometimes the books try to treat these factions as [[HardTruthAesop dropping truth-bombs everywhere]], [[JerkassHasAPoint no matter how mean they are about it]], but (especially in the 90's), said truth-bombs tend towards [[ArtisticLicenseMedicine ridiculous packs]] [[DatedHistory of lies]], more informed by what the counterculture ''wanted'' to be true than actual, verifiable facts, immediately creating a strong, justified bias in the Technocracy's favor against them.

*** The post-Revised Convention Books have come to embrace this view of them; the developers have gone on to state that the primary reason the Technocracy is still antagonistic is because they haven't realized they are in dire need of reforms and a respect for freedom as a concept, while the Traditions have actually undergone some soul-searching and asked themselves why they have skeletons in the closet. ''Technocracy: Reloaded'' has largely taken this theme and ran with it; by the time of the book’s release, the Technocracy has finally reached the point where the majority of its members have acknowledged that they’ve reached the ‘adapt or die’ threshold, but the only question of course is ''how'', with just as many Technocrats pushing for them to just declare the Ascension War for all intents and purposes over and won and to focus on more ''serious'' threats like the Nephandi, as there are hardliners pushing for a full-on return to the [[FinalSolution Pogrom]].

** ''Mage: the Ascension'' has been described as everything is YMMV, due to the nature of the setting, but two topics stand out for just how easily they generate arguments, and how often discussions derail into them: 1) How does the [[ClapYourHandsifYouBelieve Consensus]] actually work? And 2) What is the morality of the [[TheEvilsofFreeWill Techno]][[WellIntentionedExtremist cratic]] [[UnscrupulousHero Un]][[ScienceHero ion]]? The best answer for both is what ever your group decides.

** The use of "magick" instead of "magic" in the 20th Anniversary Edition. Callback to the older editions of the game that underlines the exotic, otherworldly nature of what mages do, or a needlessly-pretentious bit of snobbery that's only going to take up space in the book.
*** TakeAThirdOption: Or a simple and elegant way to differentiate every other sort of magic in the setting from sphere magic which uses completely different rules such as paradox without having to ''say'' sphere magic or hedge magic or blood magic or whatever every single time.

* SugarWiki/HeartwarmingMoments: The description of Reynolds in ''Acolytes'', an Acolye for an Order of Hermes mage. Born lower-class, Reynolds dreamed of living in a BigFancyHouse and having multiple servants at his beck and call. He was going nowhere until he found a service offering to train butlers and other house servants. Reynolds went above and beyond, eventually catching the eye of the aforementioned mage, who added him to his Chantry staff, ultimately to replace the headsman after he retired. Ultimately, and rarely for the World of Darkness, Reynolds is a man who has ''everything he ever wanted.''

*** The post-Revised Convention Books have come to embrace this view of them; the developers have gone on to state that the primary reason the Technocracy is still antagonistic is because they haven't realized they are in dire need of reforms and a respect for freedom as a concept, while the Traditions have actually undergone some soul-searching and asked themselves why they have skeletons in the closet.

* BaseBreakingCharacter: The Technocracy. While they have plenty of fans, there is ''also'' a subset of the fandom who considers them as being still the unambiguously bad guys of the plot (except for the [[EvilVersusOblivion Nephandi]]) even after the white-washing they received in later editions.

* BaseBreakingCharacter: The Technocracy. While they have plenty of fans, their is ''also'' a subset of the fandom who considers them as being still the bad guys of the plot (except the [[EvilVersusOblivion Nephandi]]) even after the white washing they received in later editions.

*** The post-Revised Convention Books have come to embrace this view of them; the developers have gone on to state that the primary reason the Technocracy is still antagonistic is because they haven't realized they are in dire need of reforms and a respect for freedom as a concept, while the Traditions have actually undergone some soul-searching and asked themselves why they have skeletons in the closet.
* PowerPerversionPotential: While vampire disciplines, werewolf gifts, and many other powers function under MagicAIsMagicA, mage spheres can be employed to almost any purpose... including the one that fits right in with the Cultists of Ecstasy
* TotallyRadical: The Virtual Adepts and Hollow Ones, somewhat, based on some of their flavor text. Good players can avoid playing them this way easily enough, and one of the stated goals of 20th Anniversary Edition is to remove problems like this and avoid them in the long-term.
** The Syndicate could be considered an odd example of this trope being approached from the opposite direction: many of their traits throughout the gameline read like ''WesternAnimation/CaptainPlanet'' or ''Film/WallStreet'' [[StupidEvil villain]] monologues. In some ways, they come across as every {{Cyberpunk}} villain cliche played shamelessly straight. In other words: [[TheMan a perfect strawman]] for our TotallyRadical youth culture protagonists to oppose.
*** Quite tellingly, in later editions, [[SympatheticPOV (which turned the other Conventions into misguided idealists or even outright heroes)]], the Syndicate simply come across as [[PragmaticVillainy Pragmatic Villains]].

** See: ''Guide to the Technocracy'', a {{sourcebook}} made to both support and subtly parody them. The Technocratic Union wasn't an evil organization, it's a well-meaning one gone horribly wrong. Their actions do monstrous things, but they have also done good: they lifted mankind from the Dark Ages, and while the [=WoD=] is certainly a CrapsackWorld, they can be credited with stopping it from being even ''worse''. [[{{Retcon}} White Wolf themselves said]] that the majority of ''Mage'' books were written from a Tradition viewpoint and were thus biased against the Technocracy, while the Technocracy's own books portrayed them as heroes. The real answer, says a sidebar, is somewhere in between. The question: Is it better to be relatively safe but controlled or to be free in a world of monsters? Furthermore, the Technocracy wants imagination, creativity, and breakthroughs; they just want it to be completely within their own paradigm. While the Traditions certainly want ''everyone'' to Awaken, it's almost always with the implicit idea that "Once the Sleepers Awaken, they'll follow the paradigm of my Tradition because it's the right one." In the end, the two views (and factions) [[NotSoDifferent aren't all that different]].

* NotSoDifferent: In-universe. As members of some of the Traditions point out, Hermetic mages would gladly replace Technocracy as the guys in charge. And back when they held more sway than what would become Technocracy, they weren't much more flexible and accommodating than the Technocracy is in the modern era.