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* IKnewIt:
** Theon and Jorah were two of the most popular choices among the episode's major casualties. Though it was intended for quite a while that Jorah would survive.
** The Night King raising the corpses buried in the crypt had been called by a lot of fans since the previous episode.
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** While Jon is a Targaryen and therefore qualifies as a DragonRider, his riding a dragon in combat has basically no buildup. He did ride on Rhaegal in the season premiere, but that was also criticized for coming pretty much out of nowhere and not acknowledging just how rare being able to bond with and ride a dragon is (only those with the [[SuperpowerfulGenetics blood of the dragon descended from Valyrian dragonlords]] can do it, which should have tipped Dany and Jon off, and makes it odd that she invited him to try in the first place).

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** While Jon is a Targaryen and therefore qualifies as a DragonRider, his riding a dragon in combat has basically no buildup. He did ride on Rhaegal in the season premiere, but that was also criticized for coming pretty much out of nowhere and not acknowledging just how rare being able to bond with and ride a dragon is (only those with the [[SuperpowerfulGenetics blood of the dragon descended from Valyrian dragonlords]] can do it, which should have tipped Dany and Jon off, and makes it odd that she invited him to try in the first place).place given that failed would-be riders have ''died'').

Changed: 108

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** While Jon is a Targaryen and therefore qualifies as a DragonRider, his riding a dragon in combat has basically no buildup. He did ride on Rhaegal in the season premiere, but that was also criticized for coming pretty much out of nowhere and not acknowledging just how rare being able to bond with and ride a dragon is (only those with the [[SuperpowerfulGenetics blood of the dragon descended from Valyrian dragonlords]] can do it).

to:

** While Jon is a Targaryen and therefore qualifies as a DragonRider, his riding a dragon in combat has basically no buildup. He did ride on Rhaegal in the season premiere, but that was also criticized for coming pretty much out of nowhere and not acknowledging just how rare being able to bond with and ride a dragon is (only those with the [[SuperpowerfulGenetics blood of the dragon descended from Valyrian dragonlords]] can do it).it, which should have tipped Dany and Jon off, and makes it odd that she invited him to try in the first place).
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** Much like [[Film/TheLastJedi Snoke]], it seems half the fans are outraged that in the end there wasn’t any kind of big reveal about the Night King after years of theorizing (his being a future Bran was especially popular), while the other half argue that the show itself never actually promised such a reveal (especially since the origin story of the Night King was already shown in [[Recap/GameOfThronesS6E5TheDoor "The Door"]] and [[OurTimeTravelIsDifferent time travel not working that way in this series]] but instead as a StableTimeLoop) and they’re victims of their own assumptions.

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** Much like [[Film/TheLastJedi Snoke]], it seems half the fans are outraged that in the end there wasn’t any kind of big reveal about the Night King after years of theorizing (his being a future Bran was especially popular), while the other half argue that the show itself never actually promised such a reveal (especially since the origin story of the Night King was already shown in [[Recap/GameOfThronesS6E5TheDoor "The Door"]] and [[OurTimeTravelIsDifferent time travel not working doesn't work that way in this series]] but instead as a StableTimeLoop) and they’re victims of their own assumptions.
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** A popular theory that developed before this episode aired was that only a fraction of the Night King's army attacked Winterfell to serve as a distraction and the Night King and his main force were marching to the less prepared but more heavily populated King's Landing first. Not only would this show tactical brilliance on the Night King's part but preserve his status as the climactic villain built up since [[Recap/GameOfThronesS1E1WinterIsComing the first episode]]. [[note]]Such a conclusion would, however, rest on the flawed belief that the Night King (created some 10,000 years ago, and having never escaped the North before) had any idea that King's Landing was even there. Unlike the Wall and Winterfell (both constructed some 8,000 years past, and having stood against the Night King for millennia), King's Landing had been a city for barely 300 years, making the theory akin to having Imhotep, freshly risen from the mummy's tomb, decide to march on 1930s Washington DC because those pesky Americans were bound to be a thorn in his side eventually. Although it could have been easily handwaved by the White Walkers knowing of King's Landing through the minds of the people they've turned into Wights.[[/note]]

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** A popular theory that developed before this episode aired was that only a fraction of the Night King's army attacked Winterfell to serve as a distraction and the Night King and his main force were marching to the less prepared but more heavily populated King's Landing first. Not only would this show tactical brilliance on the Night King's part but preserve his status as the climactic villain built up since [[Recap/GameOfThronesS1E1WinterIsComing the first episode]]. [[note]]Such a conclusion would, however, rest on the flawed belief that the Night King (created some 10,000 years ago, and having never escaped the North before) had any idea that King's Landing was even there. Unlike the Wall and Winterfell (both constructed some 8,000 years past, and having stood against the Night King for millennia), King's Landing had been a city for barely 300 years, making the theory akin to having Imhotep, freshly risen from the mummy's tomb, decide to march on 1930s Washington DC because those pesky Americans were bound to be a thorn in his side eventually. Although it could have been easily handwaved by the White Walkers knowing of King's Landing through the minds of the people they've turned into Wights.wights, and the fact that they had dealings with at least some living humans like Craster.[[/note]]
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** The Night King makes a fatal mistake by exposing himself out in the open just for the personal satisfaction of getting to kill Bran, despite the fact that he could have probably easily managed to accomplish the same by simply allowing his wights to ZergRush Bran, or let undead Viserion incinerate him in a single strafing run.

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** The Night King makes a fatal mistake by exposing himself out in the open just for the personal satisfaction of getting to kill Bran, despite the fact that he could have probably easily managed to accomplish the same by simply allowing his wights to ZergRush Bran, or let letting undead Viserion incinerate him in a single strafing run.
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** Sam waltzing onto the battlefield, even after he had been given the strong suggestion of remaining in the crypts to help protect those inside. His comrades can't rely on him, and Dolorous Edd ends up being stabbed at least in part due to a loss of situational awareness after saving Sam. Sam would also likely have been capable at least of defending the crypts against the few wights within, likely getting even more people indirectly killed.

to:

** Sam waltzing onto the battlefield, even after he had been given the strong suggestion of remaining in the crypts to help protect those inside. His comrades can't rely on him, and Dolorous Edd ends up being stabbed at least in part due to a loss of situational awareness after saving Sam. Sam would also likely have been capable at least of defending the crypts against the few wights within, so his absence likely getting got even more people indirectly killed.killed indirectly.
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** Sam waltzing on to the battlefield, even after he had been given the strong suggestion of remaining in the crypts to help protect those inside. His comrades can't rely on him, and Dolorous Edd ends up being stabbed at least in part due to a loss of situational awareness after saving Sam. Sam would also likely have been capable at least of defending the crypts against the few wights within, likely getting even more people indirectly killed.

to:

** Sam waltzing on to onto the battlefield, even after he had been given the strong suggestion of remaining in the crypts to help protect those inside. His comrades can't rely on him, and Dolorous Edd ends up being stabbed at least in part due to a loss of situational awareness after saving Sam. Sam would also likely have been capable at least of defending the crypts against the few wights within, likely getting even more people indirectly killed.
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** In order to survive Viserion's BreathWeapon, Jon crouches behind a rock that protects him from the fire. Which would be fine and dandy, if this very same BreathWeapon hadn't ''destroyed Winterfell's solid stone walls'' only a few episodes earlier and now can't even blow apart some measly rubble to get at Jon. Even taking into account Rhaegal tore off half of Viserion's head and he's leaking fire as a result to make the argument he can't channel it as effectively anymore, such a massive loss of power can strain belief especially since Viserion gives a sustained blast at Jon's cover comparable to previous uses yet still can't destroy a much smaller and weaker target (which doesn't seem to have the excuse of being dragonglass).

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** In order to survive Viserion's BreathWeapon, Jon crouches behind a rock that protects him from the fire. Which would be fine and dandy, if this very same BreathWeapon hadn't ''destroyed Winterfell's solid stone walls'' only a few episodes earlier and now can't even blow apart some measly rubble to get at Jon. Even taking into account Rhaegal tore off half of Viserion's head and he's leaking fire as a result to make the argument he can't channel it as effectively anymore, such a massive loss of power can strain belief especially since Viserion gives a sustained blast at Jon's cover comparable to previous uses yet still can't destroy a much smaller and weaker target (which doesn't seem to have the excuse of being dragonglass).target.
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** In order to survive Viserion's BreathWeapon, Jon crouches behind a rock that protects him from the fire. Which would be fine and dandy, if this very same BreathWeapon hadn't ''destroyed Winterfell's solid stone walls'' only a few episodes earlier and now can't even blow apart some measly rubble to get at Jon. Even taking into account Rhaegal tore off half of Viserion's head and he's leaking fire as a result to make the argument he can't channel it as effectively anymore, such a massive loss of power can strain belief especially since Viserion gives a sustained blast at Jon's cover comparable to previous uses yet still can't destroy a much smaller and weaker target.

to:

** In order to survive Viserion's BreathWeapon, Jon crouches behind a rock that protects him from the fire. Which would be fine and dandy, if this very same BreathWeapon hadn't ''destroyed Winterfell's solid stone walls'' only a few episodes earlier and now can't even blow apart some measly rubble to get at Jon. Even taking into account Rhaegal tore off half of Viserion's head and he's leaking fire as a result to make the argument he can't channel it as effectively anymore, such a massive loss of power can strain belief especially since Viserion gives a sustained blast at Jon's cover comparable to previous uses yet still can't destroy a much smaller and weaker target.target (which doesn't seem to have the excuse of being dragonglass).
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** In order to survive Viserion's BreathWeapon, Jon crouches behind a rock that protects him from the fire. Which would be fine and dandy, if this very same BreathWeapon hadn't ''destroyed Winterfell's solid stone walls'' only a few scenes earlier and now can't even blow apart some measly rubble to get at Jon. Even taking into account Rhaegal tore off half of Viserion's head and he's leaking fire as a result to make the argument he can't channel it as effectively anymore, such a massive loss of power can strain belief especially since Viserion gives a sustained blast at Jon's cover comparable to previous uses yet still can't destroy a much smaller and weaker target.

to:

** In order to survive Viserion's BreathWeapon, Jon crouches behind a rock that protects him from the fire. Which would be fine and dandy, if this very same BreathWeapon hadn't ''destroyed Winterfell's solid stone walls'' only a few scenes episodes earlier and now can't even blow apart some measly rubble to get at Jon. Even taking into account Rhaegal tore off half of Viserion's head and he's leaking fire as a result to make the argument he can't channel it as effectively anymore, such a massive loss of power can strain belief especially since Viserion gives a sustained blast at Jon's cover comparable to previous uses yet still can't destroy a much smaller and weaker target.

Added: 3863

Changed: 5319

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Formatting messed up - reordered again. Please revert this if it doesn't work.


* IdiotPlot: In conjunction with with HollywoodTactics ( [[https://www.tabletoptribe.com/battle-of-winterfell-worst-castle-defence-ever/ summarized]] [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA5mJRFaI8c elsewhere]]) this entire episode is plotted along a chain of ''incredibly'' illogical and foolish decisions by characters like Jon, Daenerys, the Night King and many others who have been shown to be far smarter. In detail :\n** The gathered forces of the Light start the battle by throwing their entire cavalry force (at least 50,000 mounted Dothraki screamers) in a charge that was guaranteed to completely wipe them out and gain them nothing. What makes it worse is that they were apparently planning to do this from the get-go even before Melissandre arrived and gave the Dothraki a HopeSpot by lighting the arakhs they all carry on fire, as this weapon is typically useless against wights and White Walkers (and unlike the Unsullied, they haven't been issued any dragonglass weapons). So why did Jon, Dany, and their war council plan this when this action would serve nothing but adding 50,000 fresh wights to the Army of the Dead?\n** Why assemble all your infantry ''in the open'' when you're in front of a powerful fortress like Winterfell? After all, what use are the walls of a castle or a fortress if not to keep your troops safe? And even if they wanted to keep their troops in the open to provide another barrier to the wight charge, why didn't they put the flaming trenches and dragonglass-tipped spikes ''in front'' of them and light them at the first instance of the wights showing?\n** On that note, if you are going to deploy your army in front of the walls at night, set up some fires ahead of you so you can see the enemy coming! The Unsullied probably could have held a lot longer if they could have seen what they were doing.\n** Not having something like boiling oil or flammable liquid pitch to fight the wights climbing the walls. The Night's Watch ''had'' such things on top of the Wall as the battle of Castle Black showed in Season 4.\n** Putting the trebuchets in ''front'' of the army, and then only firing one salvo, makes the living look more than a little scatterbrained. For that matter, they could have easily set up smaller catapults on the tops of Winterfell's towers and inside the huge courtyard to rain flaming rocks on the wights with impunity. \n** Having only a handful of archers on the wall battlements and practically none on top of the towers and other buildings. Forget ranged weapons, wights don't so much as throw ''rocks'' - any archers shooting at them from Winterfell would have been perfectly safe until the wights scaled the walls! Even if there weren't enough archers to man the walls from among the Northern and Vale forces, they could have borrowed hundreds if not thousands of Dothraki horse archers instead of throwing away their lives in a brainless suicide charge.\n** Sam waltzing on to the battlefield, even after he had been given the strong suggestion of remaining in the crypts to help protect those inside. His comrades can't rely on him, and Dolorous Edd ends up being stabbed at least in part due to a loss of situational awareness after saving Sam. Sam would also likely have been capable at least of defending the crypts against the few wights within, likely getting even more people indirectly killed.\n** On a similar level, not providing one or two capable men to guard the people in the crypts (and also not giving anyone there a weapon) means that a small number of wights raised are able to slaughter a large number of those hiding as they have no means of defending themselves. While there is some sense in thinking that if the crypt is breached the battle is already lost, a couple of soldiers wouldn't make much difference and would safeguard some valuable people against unexpected events. And as mentioned above, that outcome was also predictable as a possibility...\n** Hiding in a crypt to protect yourselves against a mighty {{Necromancer}} who Jon knows can raise thousands of dead ''at a distance'', and not even bothering to burn the corpses inside? [[SarcasmMode What a great idea, everyone!]]\n** Jon is pursuing the Night King after both are dismounted, but halts his run giving his quarry time to realise he is there. Jon only continues his charge once the Night King is in the process of raising the dead. If Jon had carried on with his run and hadn't hesitated, he likely would have been able to attack the Night King in time.\n** Daenerys lands after saving Jon and pays no attention to her surroundings, allowing Drogon to be swarmed by wights and losing him for the remainder of the battle.\n** The Night King makes a fatal mistake by exposing himself out in the open just for the personal satisfaction of getting to kill Bran, despite the fact that he could have probably easily managed to accomplish the same by simply allowing his wights to ZergRush Bran, or let undead Viserion incinerate him in a single strafing run.\n----

to:

* IdiotPlot: IdiotBall: In conjunction with with HollywoodTactics ( [[https://www.tabletoptribe.com/battle-of-winterfell-worst-castle-defence-ever/ summarized]] [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA5mJRFaI8c elsewhere]]) this entire episode is plotted along a chain of ''incredibly'' illogical and foolish decisions by characters like Jon, Daenerys, the Night King and many others who have been shown to be far smarter. In detail :\n** detail:
**
The gathered forces of the Light start the battle by throwing their entire cavalry force (at least 50,000 mounted Dothraki screamers) in a charge that was guaranteed to completely wipe them out and gain them nothing. What makes it worse is that they were apparently planning to do this from the get-go even before Melissandre arrived and gave the Dothraki a HopeSpot by lighting the arakhs they all carry on fire, as this weapon is typically useless against wights and White Walkers (and unlike the Unsullied, they haven't been issued any dragonglass weapons). So why did Jon, Dany, and their war council plan this when this action would serve nothing but adding 50,000 fresh wights to the Army of the Dead?\n** Dead?
**
Why assemble all your infantry ''in the open'' when you're in front of a powerful fortress like Winterfell? After all, what use are the walls of a castle or a fortress if not to keep your troops safe? And even if they wanted to keep their troops in the open to provide another barrier to the wight charge, why didn't they put the flaming trenches and dragonglass-tipped spikes ''in front'' of them and light them at the first instance of the wights showing?\n** showing?
***
On that note, if you are going to deploy your army in front of the walls at night, set up some fires ahead of you so you can see the enemy coming! The Unsullied probably could have held a lot longer if they could have seen what they were doing.\n** doing.
**
Not having something like boiling oil or flammable liquid pitch to fight the wights climbing the walls. The Night's Watch ''had'' such things on top of the Wall as the battle of Castle Black showed in Season 4.\n** 4.
**
Putting the trebuchets in ''front'' of the army, and then only firing one salvo, makes the living look more than a little scatterbrained. For that matter, they could have easily set up smaller catapults on the tops of Winterfell's towers and inside the huge courtyard to rain flaming rocks on the wights with impunity. \n**
**
Having only a handful of archers on the wall battlements and practically none on top of the towers and other buildings. Forget ranged weapons, wights don't so much as throw ''rocks'' - any archers shooting at them from Winterfell would have been perfectly safe until the wights scaled the walls! Even if there weren't enough archers to man the walls from among the Northern and Vale forces, they could have borrowed hundreds if not thousands of Dothraki horse archers instead of throwing away their lives in a brainless suicide charge.\n** charge.
**
Sam waltzing on to the battlefield, even after he had been given the strong suggestion of remaining in the crypts to help protect those inside. His comrades can't rely on him, and Dolorous Edd ends up being stabbed at least in part due to a loss of situational awareness after saving Sam. Sam would also likely have been capable at least of defending the crypts against the few wights within, likely getting even more people indirectly killed.\n** killed.
** Hiding in a crypt to protect yourselves against a mighty {{Necromancer}} who Jon knows can raise thousands of dead ''at a distance'', and not even bothering to burn the corpses inside? [[SarcasmMode What a great idea, everyone!]]
***
On a similar level, not providing one or two capable men to guard the people in the crypts (and also not giving anyone there a weapon) means that a small number of wights raised are able to slaughter a large number of those hiding as they have no means of defending themselves. While there is some sense in thinking that if the crypt is breached the battle is already lost, a couple of soldiers wouldn't make much difference and would safeguard some valuable people against unexpected events. And as mentioned above, that outcome was also predictable as a possibility...\n** Hiding in a crypt to protect yourselves against a mighty {{Necromancer}} who Jon knows can raise thousands of dead ''at a distance'', and not even bothering to burn the corpses inside? [[SarcasmMode What a great idea, everyone!]]\n** possibility...
**
Jon is pursuing the Night King after both are dismounted, but halts his run giving his quarry time to realise he is there. Jon only continues his charge once the Night King is in the process of raising the dead. If Jon had carried on with his run and hadn't hesitated, he likely would have been able to attack the Night King in time.\n** time.
**
Daenerys lands after saving Jon and pays no attention to her surroundings, allowing Drogon to be swarmed by wights and losing him for the remainder of the battle.\n** battle.
**
The Night King makes a fatal mistake by exposing himself out in the open just for the personal satisfaction of getting to kill Bran, despite the fact that he could have probably easily managed to accomplish the same by simply allowing his wights to ZergRush Bran, or let undead Viserion incinerate him in a single strafing run.\n----
run.
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Reordered under "Idiot Plot" which is far more appropriate than the discredited "What an Idiot" trope- please edit the wording if it seems too much like Flame Bait.

Added DiffLines:

*IdiotPlot: In conjunction with with HollywoodTactics ( [[https://www.tabletoptribe.com/battle-of-winterfell-worst-castle-defence-ever/ summarized]] [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA5mJRFaI8c elsewhere]]) this entire episode is plotted along a chain of ''incredibly'' illogical and foolish decisions by characters like Jon, Daenerys, the Night King and many others who have been shown to be far smarter. In detail :\n** The gathered forces of the Light start the battle by throwing their entire cavalry force (at least 50,000 mounted Dothraki screamers) in a charge that was guaranteed to completely wipe them out and gain them nothing. What makes it worse is that they were apparently planning to do this from the get-go even before Melissandre arrived and gave the Dothraki a HopeSpot by lighting the arakhs they all carry on fire, as this weapon is typically useless against wights and White Walkers (and unlike the Unsullied, they haven't been issued any dragonglass weapons). So why did Jon, Dany, and their war council plan this when this action would serve nothing but adding 50,000 fresh wights to the Army of the Dead?\n** Why assemble all your infantry ''in the open'' when you're in front of a powerful fortress like Winterfell? After all, what use are the walls of a castle or a fortress if not to keep your troops safe? And even if they wanted to keep their troops in the open to provide another barrier to the wight charge, why didn't they put the flaming trenches and dragonglass-tipped spikes ''in front'' of them and light them at the first instance of the wights showing?\n** On that note, if you are going to deploy your army in front of the walls at night, set up some fires ahead of you so you can see the enemy coming! The Unsullied probably could have held a lot longer if they could have seen what they were doing.\n** Not having something like boiling oil or flammable liquid pitch to fight the wights climbing the walls. The Night's Watch ''had'' such things on top of the Wall as the battle of Castle Black showed in Season 4.\n** Putting the trebuchets in ''front'' of the army, and then only firing one salvo, makes the living look more than a little scatterbrained. For that matter, they could have easily set up smaller catapults on the tops of Winterfell's towers and inside the huge courtyard to rain flaming rocks on the wights with impunity. \n** Having only a handful of archers on the wall battlements and practically none on top of the towers and other buildings. Forget ranged weapons, wights don't so much as throw ''rocks'' - any archers shooting at them from Winterfell would have been perfectly safe until the wights scaled the walls! Even if there weren't enough archers to man the walls from among the Northern and Vale forces, they could have borrowed hundreds if not thousands of Dothraki horse archers instead of throwing away their lives in a brainless suicide charge.\n** Sam waltzing on to the battlefield, even after he had been given the strong suggestion of remaining in the crypts to help protect those inside. His comrades can't rely on him, and Dolorous Edd ends up being stabbed at least in part due to a loss of situational awareness after saving Sam. Sam would also likely have been capable at least of defending the crypts against the few wights within, likely getting even more people indirectly killed.\n** On a similar level, not providing one or two capable men to guard the people in the crypts (and also not giving anyone there a weapon) means that a small number of wights raised are able to slaughter a large number of those hiding as they have no means of defending themselves. While there is some sense in thinking that if the crypt is breached the battle is already lost, a couple of soldiers wouldn't make much difference and would safeguard some valuable people against unexpected events. And as mentioned above, that outcome was also predictable as a possibility...\n** Hiding in a crypt to protect yourselves against a mighty {{Necromancer}} who Jon knows can raise thousands of dead ''at a distance'', and not even bothering to burn the corpses inside? [[SarcasmMode What a great idea, everyone!]]\n** Jon is pursuing the Night King after both are dismounted, but halts his run giving his quarry time to realise he is there. Jon only continues his charge once the Night King is in the process of raising the dead. If Jon had carried on with his run and hadn't hesitated, he likely would have been able to attack the Night King in time.\n** Daenerys lands after saving Jon and pays no attention to her surroundings, allowing Drogon to be swarmed by wights and losing him for the remainder of the battle.\n** The Night King makes a fatal mistake by exposing himself out in the open just for the personal satisfaction of getting to kill Bran, despite the fact that he could have probably easily managed to accomplish the same by simply allowing his wights to ZergRush Bran, or let undead Viserion incinerate him in a single strafing run.\n----
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None

Added DiffLines:

** Melisandre immediately dying by RapidAging when she removes her necklace, when removing it before merely dropped the illusion that concealed her true age.
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Requires Word Of God confirmation


* AuthorsSavingThrow: Many had criticized the showrunners for nerfing the Unsullied in earlier seasons, especially in Season 5 in the scene where Ser Barristan died, failing to show the purported discipline of the Unsullied in favor of jobbing them for the sake of upping dramatic stakes. While many pointed out the HollywoodTactics of this episode, the one thing many agreed was that the Unsullied proved their mettle, never breaking their discipline despite the unholy and impossible situation they were in, holding forth allowing people to beat a retreat and then falling back in the end in an orderly fashion, after everyone else had gotten through the gate.

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