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* ''VideoGame/HorizonZeroDawn'': As expected of the FuturePrimitive setting. Notably, the Carja, the largest tribe in the region, enslaved every nearby tribe for labor, and then the 13th Sun-King went mad and thought he could appease the Sun with endless human sacrifices. While by the time of the game, the 14th Sun-King has outlawed slavery, the fact remains that manual labor is still necessary. Notably, because the world no longer has any animals larger than a boar, they don't even have draft animals. What few vehicles we see are exclusively pulled by human porters. Aloy is the first person to discover how to control the MechanicalLifeforms, allowing her to ride machines, but doing so requires multiple rare artifacts, so she can't exactly start a technological revolution over it.

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* [[https://www.deviantart.com/vumpalouska/art/The-Glyph-of-Purity-890149544 Harmonic Federation]] is an example where this trope is justified/reconstructed.
Almost half of the population of the Harmonic Federation is made of Fifth-class citizens. Those not personal slaves to First or Second class citizens toil in factories with intentionally minimal automation. However this is effectively a parallel economy for just sustaining the slaves themselves - Federation's Kardashev Two infrastructure, especially parts that build and maintains warships, is automated to the point where human oversight is only needed to not make humans feel like they aren't in control. Fifth-class citizens basically exist just so that rest of the [[PeoplesRepublicOfTyranny Federation]] has an underclass to look down upon.

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* [[https://www.deviantart.com/vumpalouska/art/The-Glyph-of-Purity-890149544 Harmonic Federation]] is an example where this trope is justified/reconstructed.
justified/reconstructed. Almost half of the population of the Harmonic Federation is made of Fifth-class citizens. Those not personal slaves to First or Second class citizens toil in factories with intentionally minimal automation. However this is effectively a parallel economy for just sustaining the slaves themselves - Federation's Kardashev Two infrastructure, especially parts that build and maintains warships, is automated to the point where human oversight is only needed to not make humans feel like they aren't in control. Fifth-class citizens basically exist just so that rest of the [[PeoplesRepublicOfTyranny Federation]] has an underclass to look down upon.
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** In ''[=PartnerShip=]'', Blaize institutes a policy for the native "Loosies" he's meant to look out for that if they don't work they don't eat, and has them wait on him and his visiting friends. When one of said friends starts getting too interested in the question of discipline and ATasteOfTheLash and another considers the benefits of getting to test drugs on a population of nonhumans with no rights, he distract them by having two Loosies fling a third into boiling mud and keep it from scrambling out. [[spoiler: Blaize is really a TokenGoodTeammate helping the Loosies and trying to keep them from the attention of his 'friends'. That third Loosie is his closest friend among them, and the mud while bubbly is only comfortably warm.]]

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** In ''[=PartnerShip=]'', Blaize institutes a policy for the native "Loosies" he's meant to look out for that if they don't work they don't eat, and has them wait on him and his visiting friends. When one of said friends starts getting too interested in the question of discipline and ATasteOfTheLash and another considers the benefits of getting to test drugs on a population of nonhumans with no rights, he distract distracts them by having two Loosies fling a third into boiling mud and keep it from scrambling out. [[spoiler: Blaize is really a TokenGoodTeammate helping the Loosies and trying to keep them from the attention of his 'friends'. That third Loosie is his closest friend among them, and the mud while bubbly is only comfortably warm.]]
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* ''Literature/TheShipWho'' setting doesn't have a lot of robots, but manual labor is generally seen as either an extravagance in the case of servants and a barbaric display of power in the case of slaves.
** In ''[=PartnerShip=]'', Blaize institutes a policy for the native "Loosies" he's meant to look out for that if they don't work they don't eat, and has them wait on him and his visiting friends. When one of said friends starts getting too interested in the question of discipline and ATasteOfTheLash and another considers the benefits of getting to test drugs on a population of nonhumans with no rights, he distract them by having two Loosies fling a third into boiling mud and keep it from scrambling out. [[spoiler: Blaize is really a TokenGoodTeammate helping the Loosies and trying to keep them from the attention of his 'friends'. That third Loosie is his closest friend among them, and the mud while bubbly is only comfortably warm.]]
** ''The Ship Who Won'' focuses on a LostColony with a severe case of LowCultureHighTech, where an upper class of "mages" uses technology they don't understand to modify and oppress everyone else, making them grow food, cook, etc.

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* In the Creator/DarkHorseComics adaptation of ''Franchise/{{Terminator}}'', Skynet initially puts surviving humans into labor camps. As with ''Film/TheMatrix'', one might [[{{WMG}} assume]] that this is done mainly for vengeful rather than practical reasons.
* Both {{inverted}} and played straight in ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd''. One the one hand, in the cities of the world, robots are so effective for so many things that unemployment rarely dips below 85%, causing mass boredom, which in turn leads to massive crime levels. Conversely, penal servitude in the Cursed Earth is a fairly common penalty, and is commonly meted out to those who smash robots in order to be able to work. [[AHellOfATime That type of criminal tends to jump at the opportunity to get back to work.]]
* IDW's adaptation of ''[[ComicBook/TheTransformersRobotsInDisguise The Transformers]]'' has a particularly silly case of this, as the titular Transformers, under the repressive [[FantasticCasteSystem Functionist]] regime, had energon mines in which Cybertronians who had heavy industry related altmodes were made to mine said energon. With [[LaserBlade laser-bladed]] pickaxes before hauling it out on minecarts they pushed up ramps. [[ForgotICouldFly Apparently turning into heavy mining equipment and trucks hadn't occured to them.]] Though the Functionists generally were more concerned [[FascistButInefficient more with maintaining order than actual efficiency]].

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* In the Creator/DarkHorseComics adaptation of ''Franchise/{{Terminator}}'', Skynet initially puts surviving humans into labor camps. As with ''Film/TheMatrix'', one might [[{{WMG}} [[WildMassGuessing assume]] that this is done mainly for vengeful rather than practical reasons.
* Both {{inverted}} {{inverted|Trope}} and played straight in ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd''. One the one hand, in the cities of the world, robots are so effective for so many things that unemployment rarely dips below 85%, causing mass boredom, which in turn leads to massive crime levels. Conversely, penal servitude in the Cursed Earth is a fairly common penalty, and is commonly meted out to those who smash robots in order to be able to work. [[AHellOfATime That type of criminal tends to jump at the opportunity to get back to work.]]
* IDW's adaptation of ''[[ComicBook/TheTransformersRobotsInDisguise The Transformers]]'' has a particularly silly case of this, as the titular Transformers, under the repressive [[FantasticCasteSystem Functionist]] regime, had energon mines in which Cybertronians who had heavy industry related altmodes were made to mine said energon. With [[LaserBlade laser-bladed]] pickaxes before hauling it out on minecarts they pushed up ramps. [[ForgotICouldFly [[RememberedICouldFly Apparently turning into heavy mining equipment and trucks hadn't occured to them.]] Though the Functionists generally were more concerned [[FascistButInefficient more with maintaining order than actual efficiency]].



* ''Film/{{Moon}}'' neatly averts this trope, featuring a vast lunar mining facility staffed by exactly ONE human, who mostly serves as a troubleshooter for the automated systems. [[spoiler:He is, however, essentially a slave himself, and cloned to boot]].

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* ''Film/{{Moon}}'' neatly averts this trope, featuring a vast lunar mining facility staffed by exactly ONE human, who mostly serves as a troubleshooter for the automated systems. [[spoiler:He is, however, essentially a slave himself, and cloned to boot]].boot.]]



* ''Film/TransformersDarkOfTheMoon'' [[spoiler:has this as the overall villains plot, capture the entire human race to use them to rebuild Cybertron.]]

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* ''Film/TransformersDarkOfTheMoon'' [[spoiler:has this as the overall villains plot, capture the entire human race to use them to rebuild Cybertron.]]Cybertron]].



* ''Franchise/{{Dune}}''.

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* ''Franchise/{{Dune}}''. ''Franchise/{{Dune}}'':



* A scenario like this is used in-character in ''Martians in Maggody'', when a reporter convinces two guilible locals that stealing copies of a UFO enthusiast's computer files is the only way to prevent scary aliens from enslaving humanity and forcing everyone to work in mines. Subverted in that [[spoiler:the reporter is not only feeding them {{Dead Horse Trope}}s to trick them into helping him, he's not even a reporter. He's an IRS agent investigating the UFO enthusiast's unreported profits from book sales and lecture fees.]]

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* A scenario like this is used in-character in ''Martians in Maggody'', when a reporter convinces two guilible locals that stealing copies of a UFO enthusiast's computer files is the only way to prevent scary aliens from enslaving humanity and forcing everyone to work in mines. Subverted in that [[spoiler:the reporter is not only feeding them {{Dead Horse Trope}}s to trick them into helping him, he's not even a reporter. He's an IRS agent investigating the UFO enthusiast's unreported profits from book sales and lecture fees.]]fees]].



** It gets better. Said advanced cybernetic organisms, the Cylons, also have a "tiered" society where [[RobotsEnslavingRobots mindless Centurions and non-sentient Raiders]] do all the land and space fighting respectively, while the humanoid "skinjobs" control the Baseship's [[SpaceshipGirl female command]] [[MadOracle oracle]]. This eventually comes back to bite them when [[spoiler:the Raiders gain a degree of sentience, half the skinjobs decide the Centurions deserve full sentience, and an EnemyCivilWar breaks out.]]

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** It gets better. Said advanced cybernetic organisms, the Cylons, also have a "tiered" society where [[RobotsEnslavingRobots mindless Centurions and non-sentient Raiders]] do all the land and space fighting respectively, while the humanoid "skinjobs" control the Baseship's [[SpaceshipGirl female command]] [[MadOracle oracle]]. This eventually comes back to bite them when [[spoiler:the Raiders gain a degree of sentience, half the skinjobs decide the Centurions deserve full sentience, and an EnemyCivilWar breaks out.]]out]].



** An exception appears in ''Series/StarTrekTheOriginalSeries'', "The Corbomite Maneuver", where Balok is the commander and sole occupant of his [[SufficientlyAdvancedAliens Sufficiently Advanced]] spaceship, the ''Fesarius'', which is dozens of times the size of the Enterprise.

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** An exception appears in ''Series/StarTrekTheOriginalSeries'', "The Corbomite Maneuver", where Balok is the commander and sole occupant of his [[SufficientlyAdvancedAliens Sufficiently Advanced]] {{Sufficiently Advanced|Alien}} spaceship, the ''Fesarius'', which is dozens of times the size of the Enterprise.



** The Empire uses its prisons as labor facilities. Cassian notes that it's actually cheaper for the Empire to use organic prisoners as slave labor because they're just arresting ''that'' many people on a daily basis. This is averted however in the post-credits scene of the Season 1 finale, in which droids are seen doing assembly work in space, suggesting the Empire saves droids for especially difficult and clandestine work [[spoiler:such as the Death Star.]]

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** The Empire uses its prisons as labor facilities. Cassian notes that it's actually cheaper for the Empire to use organic prisoners as slave labor because they're just arresting ''that'' many people on a daily basis. This is averted however in the post-credits scene of the Season 1 finale, in which droids are seen doing assembly work in space, suggesting the Empire saves droids for especially difficult and clandestine work [[spoiler:such as the Death Star.]]Star]].



** It doesn't help that said [[MachineCult Adeptus Mechanicus]] acts like an autonomous MegaCorp that monopolizes any advanced technology, from HumongousMecha to simple automated systems, in the Imperium. Any independent scientist or research organization that gets too popular will be forcibly bought, assimilated or killed by the Adeptus Mechanicus, who think that advanced archaeotech obtained from Precursors are better than independent innovation. They entirely have the capability to build an army of automated servitors to do the fighting for the Imperium, only that they think they're the only ones in the entire universe who have any idea about something arcane and forgotten called "Science", and hence hate to share it openly with other factions of the Imperium, who in turn don't fully trust the Mechanicus and consider them as borderline heretics who get away with it because the Mechanicus answers only to the Emperor himself, and are responsible for personally maintaining the Emperor's life-support system. This forces said other factions to instead rely on manual {{Mook}}s which are far cheaper than hiring servitors and a Techpriest who will maintain the automated systems.

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** It doesn't help that said [[MachineCult Adeptus Mechanicus]] acts like an autonomous MegaCorp that monopolizes any advanced technology, from HumongousMecha to simple automated systems, in the Imperium. Any independent scientist or research organization that gets too popular will be forcibly bought, assimilated or killed by the Adeptus Mechanicus, who think that advanced archaeotech obtained from Precursors are better than independent innovation. They entirely have the capability to build an army of automated servitors to do the fighting for the Imperium, only that they think they're the only ones in the entire universe who have any idea about something arcane and forgotten called "Science", and hence hate to share it openly with other factions of the Imperium, who in turn don't fully trust the Mechanicus and consider them as borderline heretics who get away with it because the Mechanicus answers only to the Emperor himself, and are responsible for personally maintaining the Emperor's life-support system. This forces said other factions to instead rely on manual {{Mook}}s {{Mooks}} which are far cheaper than hiring servitors and a Techpriest who will maintain the automated systems.



** Zone [[spoiler:Washington, where the human inhabitants believe themselves to be the sole remaining human-controlled nation and labour mightily to maintain the strength of their military robots to keep it that way - controlled, of course, by their 'tame' AI that in actuality runs the government.]]
** Some of the Zoneminds that have instead chosen to ruthlessly eradicate all humans immediately are actually at an economic disadvantage to their bretheren because of it, both due to the lack of cheap labor and the extra resources they've expended in the extermination efforts.
* Slave traffic is mentioned in ''TabletopGame/{{Traveller}}''. It is illegal in the Imperium, though the Sword Worlds have a judicial slavery as punishment for murder, treason, and other heinous crimes (which makes one amused at the {{Irony}} of the fate of a SpacePirate caught while trying to sell off his captives). It is not always made clear what the slaves are expected to do. However the SchizoTech of ''Traveller'' at least sort of justifies it.

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** Zone [[spoiler:Washington, where the human inhabitants believe themselves to be the sole remaining human-controlled nation and labour mightily to maintain the strength of their military robots to keep it that way - controlled, of course, by their 'tame' AI that in actuality runs the government.]]
government]].
** Some of the Zoneminds that have instead chosen to ruthlessly eradicate all humans immediately are actually at an economic disadvantage to their bretheren brethren because of it, both due to the lack of cheap labor and the extra resources they've expended in the extermination efforts.
* Slave traffic is mentioned in ''TabletopGame/{{Traveller}}''. It is illegal in the Imperium, though the Sword Worlds have a judicial slavery as punishment for murder, treason, and other heinous crimes (which makes one amused at the {{Irony}} of the fate of a SpacePirate {{Space Pirate|s}} caught while trying to sell off his captives). It is not always made clear what the slaves are expected to do. However the SchizoTech of ''Traveller'' at least sort of justifies it.



* ''VideoGame/HalfLife2'' has the "unwillingly made into cyborgs" version with Stalkers, people who have their limbs and most of their organs removed and replaced with mechanical equivalents, and appear to be brainwashed/programmed to near-nonsentience. The "transhuman" arm of the [[EvilArmy Combine Overwatch]] also appears to be a lesser version of this; the changes made are less radical and they retain more intelligence, however the process is voluntary. This was rather the point as far as WellIntentionedExtremist Breen was concerned; it was either prove humanity useful in some way (''any'' way no matter how desperate) or face extinction.

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* ''VideoGame/HalfLife2'' has the "unwillingly made into cyborgs" version with Stalkers, people who have their limbs and most of their organs removed and replaced with mechanical equivalents, and appear to be brainwashed/programmed to near-nonsentience. The "transhuman" arm of the [[EvilArmy [[ArmiesAreEvil Combine Overwatch]] also appears to be a lesser version of this; the changes made are less radical and they retain more intelligence, however the process is voluntary. This was rather the point as far as WellIntentionedExtremist Breen was concerned; it was either prove humanity useful in some way (''any'' way no matter how desperate) or face extinction.



* In a ''Website/GaiaOnline'' event, each of the four towns was assigned two fantasy races to assist them in the upcoming "Rejected Olympics". The futuristic town of Aekea got [[OurOrcsAreDifferent Blizzard Style Orcs]], in addition to the previously introduced Aliens. The new aliens were created by leftover AppliedPhlebotinum that the ''real'' aliens left behind, while the orcs were HandWaved away by saying they were a newly discovered species that have been hired as manual laborers. One character even wonders if the orcs are actually being payed for their work. ...Of course, there's just one problem. ''AEKEA IS A CITY FULL OF ROBOTS''. It's the only city that's even ''allowed'' to have robots, as they were banned everywhere else after some [[NoodleIncident war that no one talks about.]] But the fact that you are enslaving ''orcs'' to effectively do something that could be accomplished by a ''tow truck'' or a ''pulley'' is a bit confusing...

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* In a ''Website/GaiaOnline'' event, each of the four towns was assigned two fantasy races to assist them in the upcoming "Rejected Olympics". The futuristic town of Aekea got [[OurOrcsAreDifferent Blizzard Style Orcs]], in addition to the previously introduced Aliens. The new aliens were created by leftover AppliedPhlebotinum that the ''real'' aliens left behind, while the orcs were HandWaved {{handwave}}d away by saying they were a newly discovered species that have been hired as manual laborers. One character even wonders if the orcs are actually being payed for their work. ...Of course, there's just one problem. ''AEKEA IS A CITY FULL OF ROBOTS''. It's the only city that's even ''allowed'' to have robots, as they were banned everywhere else after some [[NoodleIncident war that no one talks about.]] But the fact that you are enslaving ''orcs'' to effectively do something that could be accomplished by a ''tow truck'' or a ''pulley'' is a bit confusing...



* The second ''VideoGame/{{Crusader}}'' game, ''No Regret'', makes a few things clear. First, the most valuable mineral in the solar system is found almost exlusively on the moon--almost half of known reserves are there. Second, the [[MegaCorp WEC]] ships mostly political prisoners there, to get them out of the way and do mining with minimal safety while surrounded by heavily-armed guards. Third, the game's own lore states that while semi-sentient guard robots and maintenance bots are present, they are apparently quite expensive, compared to unprotected laborers operating nonsentient machinery with guns pointed at their heads. Played straight, justifed, and subvereted all at once.

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* The second ''VideoGame/{{Crusader}}'' game, ''No Regret'', makes a few things clear. First, the most valuable mineral in the solar system is found almost exlusively exclusively on the moon--almost half of known reserves are there. Second, the [[MegaCorp WEC]] ships mostly political prisoners there, to get them out of the way and do mining with minimal safety while surrounded by heavily-armed guards. Third, the game's own lore states that while semi-sentient guard robots and maintenance bots are present, they are apparently quite expensive, compared to unprotected laborers operating nonsentient machinery with guns pointed at their heads. Played straight, justifed, justified, and subvereted subverted all at once.



** The batarians still practice slavery, despite a being starfaring civilization for centuries. They argue that slavery is a "[[CultureJustifiesEverything cultural right]]" of their people; the [[TheFederation Council]] doesn't buy it. It's made clear multiple times that this (along with other policies like autarky) has made them an economic basketcase.

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** The batarians still practice slavery, despite a being starfaring civilization for centuries. They argue that slavery is a "[[CultureJustifiesEverything "[[CultureJustifiesAnything cultural right]]" of their people; the [[TheFederation Council]] doesn't buy it. It's made clear multiple times that this (along with other policies like autarky) has made them an economic basketcase.



** There is possibly some FridgeHorror in the way that class system is, on paper, a meritocracy. In practice however, high-class citizens make sure their children have every advantage possible up to an uncluding biological and cybernetic augmentation. Meanwhile fifth-class citizens not only are blocked from both due to financial and legal reasons, even [[Thoughtcrime literacy is prohibited]].

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** There is possibly some FridgeHorror in the way that class system is, on paper, a meritocracy. In practice however, high-class citizens make sure their children have every advantage possible up to an uncluding and including biological and cybernetic augmentation. Meanwhile fifth-class citizens not only are blocked from both due to financial and legal reasons, even [[Thoughtcrime [[ThoughtCrime literacy is prohibited]].



* An episode of ''WesternAnimation/{{Futurama}}'' has the crew enslaved on an Egyptian analogue planet, where thousands of people are worked to death for laughs to build huge monuments and tombs. Bender gets himself named Pharaoh and takes it up to eleven.

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* An ''WesternAnimation/{{Futurama}}'':
** One
episode of ''WesternAnimation/{{Futurama}}'' has the crew enslaved on an Egyptian analogue planet, where thousands of people are worked to death for laughs to build huge monuments and tombs. Bender gets himself named Pharaoh and takes it up to eleven.



** Possibly justified in the ''Futurama'' universe since almost all technology has highly advanced AI [[RidiculouslyHumanRobot for some reason]], and therefore can't/shouldn't replace slaves. Even the seemingly inanimate appliances like the television and ceiling fan expressed sentience during the robot uprising episode. Even a singing card has intelligence.

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** Possibly justified in the ''Futurama'' universe since almost all technology has highly advanced AI [[RidiculouslyHumanRobot [[RidiculouslyHumanRobots for some reason]], and therefore can't/shouldn't replace slaves. Even the seemingly inanimate appliances like the television and ceiling fan expressed sentience during the robot uprising episode. Even a singing card has intelligence.



* In ''[[WesternAnimation/TeenageMutantNinjaTurtles1987 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles]]'', Krang is the proud owner of [[BaseOnWheels the Technodrome]], with all the MechaMooks he can use. He and Shredder still force [[DumbMuscle Bebop and Rocksteady]] to do all the cleaning work around the Technodrome, even though they are lazy and incompetent enough that it would seem more efficient to have the work done by robots.
** On the other hand, it kept them out of trouble -mostly- when they weren't needed for anything else. Bored, restless DumbMuscle is never a good thing.

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* In ''[[WesternAnimation/TeenageMutantNinjaTurtles1987 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles]]'', Krang is the proud owner of [[BaseOnWheels the Technodrome]], with all the MechaMooks he can use. He and Shredder still force [[DumbMuscle Bebop and Rocksteady]] to do all the cleaning work around the Technodrome, even though they are lazy and incompetent enough that it would seem more efficient to have the work done by robots.
**
robots. On the other hand, it kept them out of trouble -mostly- when they weren't needed for anything else. Bored, restless DumbMuscle is never a good thing.



* In the ''WesternAnimation/RickAndMorty'' episode "The Ricklantis Mixup," we see Ricks employed in the Simple Rick's Wafer Cookie factory standing at a machine pulling a lever all day, even though any one of the Ricks could automate that task in about ten seconds flat. Maybe this is why [[spoiler:one of the Ricks goes postal and kills his manager halfway through the episode.]]

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* In the ''WesternAnimation/RickAndMorty'' episode "The Ricklantis Mixup," we see Ricks employed in the Simple Rick's Wafer Cookie factory standing at a machine pulling a lever all day, even though any one of the Ricks could automate that task in about ten seconds flat. Maybe this is why [[spoiler:one of the Ricks goes postal and kills his manager halfway through the episode.]]episode]].



** The [[UsefulNotes/RedsWithRockets Soviet school of design]] was informed heavily by [[UsefulNotes/WorldWarTwo WWII]] experience: although the [[UsefulNotes/NazisWithGnarlyWeapons German Überpanzer like the Panther and the Tiger]] could [[CurbStompBattle snipe Soviet tanks at extreme ranges]], they were notoriously unreliable and [[EliteArmy few in number]], owing to [[AwesomeButImpractical their bloated size and mass]] - the "medium" Panther was larger (and heavier) than the Soviet IS-2 heavy tank - and so the bulk of Heer armour was made of [[MookMobile Panzer IV]] and [[TanksButNoTanks StuG III]], which could be effective but certainly weren't as hardy. This meant that the Soviets would keep capitalizing on the advantages of the T-34-85 (a fast and cheap JackOfAllStats) and then apply the same logic to NATO armour, expecting to counter their super-duper machines with [[ZergRush quantity]], [[ConfusionFu surprise, speed]], [[DeathFromAbove combined arms]] and [[AllYourBaseAreBelongToUs deep operations]], denying them [[HollywoodTactics a head-on engagement]] in which NATO armour would exploit its advantages. Not that it had that many -- a Soviet tank of the [[UsefulNotes/ColdWar Cold War]] was armed with a [[{{BFG}} bigger gun]] and equally thick armour compared to a NATO design of the same [[TechnologyLevels generation]], while being [[LightningBruiser lighter]] (modern Western [=MBTs=] are approaching 70 t; [=ComBlock=] designs are no heavier than 45 t) and hence more agile and economically and logistically affordable. The sole reason for this was because, as it became apparent in WWII, the Soviets ruthlessly cut down on interior volume -- while Western tanks are cramped, they seem [[UnnecessarilyLargeInterior ludicrously roomy]] in comparison with Soviet-school vehicles that are near ClownCar levels, which means that the crew, naturally, sit on top of ammo and fuel, and have by regulation to be shorter than 185 cm (which means that someone around 170 cm is actually comfortable). An autoloader does not worsen the safety situation, but helps shrink mass and size further by eliminating another member of the crew, and it was the Soviet mantra that the best protection is not being hit at all; also, the human loader would eventually get tired, and was a lot less effective in the more confined interior, as the pre-autoloader but equally small T-55 and T-62 show. Furthermore, Soviet tanks were expected to actively maneuver rather than snipe targets from hull-down positions (as NATO tanks were likely to be doing), and had poorer suspension; it is considerably harder to load the gun manually when the vertical stabilizer keeps thrusting the breech up and down. Additionally, the later-pattern autoloader on the T-72 is significantly less vulnerable: the shells are arranged not in a cylinder under the turret ring, but in a circle of the floor, and hidden at the very bottom of the vehicle behind an extra layer of armor - hence [[NoKillLikeOverkill anything capable of triggering a magazine detonation likely destroys the tank anyway]]. As to the spare shell lockers, the [[UsefulNotes/RussiansWithRustingRockets new T-90 variants]] do move them into a bustle storage compartment - and Hatedom run afoul of the [[{{Hatedom}} bustle haters]], who believe that any large turret bustle is extremely likely to get hit in combat, whereas the baseline T-90 has a compact (short and broad) turret, and [[LuckilyMyShieldWillProtectMe it is impossible to hit anything but the heavily-protected front from a sector of 60°]]. Also, many Abrams loaders jam the doors open, completely nullifying the protective qualities of the system - to [[DangerousForbiddenTechnique keep the rate of fire up]]. Finally, autoloaders are believed to be more usable in future tanks for two aspects: firstly, as the LensmanArmsRace is liable to continue, [[{{BFG}} tank guns]] will likely get even bigger: as of 1990, there were prototypes of prototypes a Leopard 2 variant with a 140 mm cannon and a T-80 variant with a 152 mm gun. Both of these exceeded the practical abilities of human loaders and were fitted with autoloaders -- much like modern 152-155 mm artillery, which uses at least partially mechanized loading instead of ''two'' loaders per gun. The second element of prospective [[UsefulNotes/RussiansWithRustingRockets Russian]] tanks is removing the crew from the turret altogether, settling the issue completely by using [[NighInvulnerability a front-mounted capsule tough enough to survive the destruction of the rest of the vehicle]] -- while even further reducing the size of the turret.

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** The [[UsefulNotes/RedsWithRockets Soviet school of design]] was informed heavily by [[UsefulNotes/WorldWarTwo [[UsefulNotes/WorldWarII WWII]] experience: although the [[UsefulNotes/NazisWithGnarlyWeapons German Überpanzer like the Panther and the Tiger]] could [[CurbStompBattle snipe Soviet tanks at extreme ranges]], they were notoriously unreliable and [[EliteArmy few in number]], owing to [[AwesomeButImpractical their bloated size and mass]] - the "medium" Panther was larger (and heavier) than the Soviet IS-2 heavy tank - and so the bulk of Heer armour was made of [[MookMobile Panzer IV]] and [[TanksButNoTanks StuG III]], which could be effective but certainly weren't as hardy. This meant that the Soviets would keep capitalizing on the advantages of the T-34-85 (a fast and cheap JackOfAllStats) and then apply the same logic to NATO armour, expecting to counter their super-duper machines with [[ZergRush quantity]], [[ConfusionFu surprise, speed]], [[DeathFromAbove combined arms]] and [[AllYourBaseAreBelongToUs deep operations]], denying them [[HollywoodTactics a head-on engagement]] in which NATO armour would exploit its advantages. Not that it had that many -- a Soviet tank of the [[UsefulNotes/ColdWar Cold War]] was armed with a [[{{BFG}} bigger gun]] and equally thick armour compared to a NATO design of the same [[TechnologyLevels generation]], while being [[LightningBruiser lighter]] (modern Western [=MBTs=] are approaching 70 t; [=ComBlock=] designs are no heavier than 45 t) and hence more agile and economically and logistically affordable. The sole reason for this was because, as it became apparent in WWII, the Soviets ruthlessly cut down on interior volume -- while Western tanks are cramped, they seem [[UnnecessarilyLargeInterior ludicrously roomy]] in comparison with Soviet-school vehicles that are near ClownCar levels, which means that the crew, naturally, sit on top of ammo and fuel, and have by regulation to be shorter than 185 cm (which means that someone around 170 cm is actually comfortable). An autoloader does not worsen the safety situation, but helps shrink mass and size further by eliminating another member of the crew, and it was the Soviet mantra that the best protection is not being hit at all; also, the human loader would eventually get tired, and was a lot less effective in the more confined interior, as the pre-autoloader but equally small T-55 and T-62 show. Furthermore, Soviet tanks were expected to actively maneuver rather than snipe targets from hull-down positions (as NATO tanks were likely to be doing), and had poorer suspension; it is considerably harder to load the gun manually when the vertical stabilizer keeps thrusting the breech up and down. Additionally, the later-pattern autoloader on the T-72 is significantly less vulnerable: the shells are arranged not in a cylinder under the turret ring, but in a circle of the floor, and hidden at the very bottom of the vehicle behind an extra layer of armor - hence [[NoKillLikeOverkill anything capable of triggering a magazine detonation likely destroys the tank anyway]]. As to the spare shell lockers, the [[UsefulNotes/RussiansWithRustingRockets new T-90 variants]] do move them into a bustle storage compartment - and Hatedom run afoul of the [[{{Hatedom}} bustle haters]], who believe that any large turret bustle is extremely likely to get hit in combat, whereas the baseline T-90 has a compact (short and broad) turret, and [[LuckilyMyShieldWillProtectMe it is impossible to hit anything but the heavily-protected front from a sector of 60°]]. Also, many Abrams loaders jam the doors open, completely nullifying the protective qualities of the system - to [[DangerousForbiddenTechnique keep the rate of fire up]]. Finally, autoloaders are believed to be more usable in future tanks for two aspects: firstly, as the LensmanArmsRace is liable to continue, [[{{BFG}} tank guns]] will likely get even bigger: as of 1990, there were prototypes of prototypes a Leopard 2 variant with a 140 mm cannon and a T-80 variant with a 152 mm gun. Both of these exceeded the practical abilities of human loaders and were fitted with autoloaders -- much like modern 152-155 mm artillery, which uses at least partially mechanized loading instead of ''two'' loaders per gun. The second element of prospective [[UsefulNotes/RussiansWithRustingRockets Russian]] tanks is removing the crew from the turret altogether, settling the issue completely by using [[NighInvulnerability a front-mounted capsule tough enough to survive the destruction of the rest of the vehicle]] -- while even further reducing the size of the turret.

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