History Main / NoPointsForNeutrality

* ''DeusEx'' has three endings: [[spoiler:Meld with the AI to become a benevolent dictator, go back to 20th century corporate domination, or go back to the Dark Ages]]. They're all more or less neutral, given the BlackAndGreyMorality in the game, making this something of an aversion of the usualy good-evil {{railroading}} a lot of games apply.

* In ''BaldursGate'', you can play a neutral alignment, but most quest rewards are based on a good/evil option, and rewards are biased towards good, [[EvilPaysBetter subverting the normal temptation for players.]] Neutral-aligned party members are happy to stay with a group with saintly reputation, and even evil companions will only leave at the highest (19-20) reputation levels.

** There is at least one sidequest in the first game where the highest rewards come from making a neutral decision. You have to go undercover and buy some illegal weapons mods. The Paragon decision and Renegade decision (arrest the seller and refuse to pay, respectively) both lead to a fight and being chewed out by detective you're helping. The neutral decision to just pay the guy without incident nets you extra mods from the detective. It's also [[spoiler:the only decision here that nets you Paragon points. Yes, the supposed Paragon response still earns Renegade points in this scene.]]

* In ''BaldursGate'', you can play a neutral alignment, but most quest rewards are based on a good/evil option, and rewards are biased towards good, [[EvilPaysBetter subverting the normal temptation for players.]] Neutral-aligned party members are happy to stay with a group with saintly reputation, and even evil companions will only leave at the higher reputation levels.

*** Played straight with the Friendship/Rivalry meters and the Mage-Templar conflict. Choosing not to go for full friendship or rivalry with companions deprives them of special abilities, removes romance options, [[spoiler:in Isabela's case she ditches you in Act II]], and ensures that they will side against you in the endgame if you pick a side they don't like. Being wishy-washy with the Mage-Templar conflict throughout the game will deny you access to sidequests in Act III.

** There is at least one sidequest in the first game where the highest rewards come from making a neutral decision. You have to go undercover and buy some illegal weapons mods. The Paragon decision and Renegade decision (arrest the seller and refuse to pay, respectively) both lead to a fight and being chewed out by detective you're helping. The neutral decision to just pay the guy without incident nets you extra mods from the detective.

** The sequel worsens this. Rather than tying charm and intimidate to skill points, your characters skill in charm and intimidate is governed by the Paragon and Renegade bars. This lead to complaints from neutral roleplayers about the game encouraging "What nets me the higher bonus?" thinking over "What would my character do?" thinking.
*** However, that system at least makes sense. It's your reputation that determines if you're trusted/feared enough to use charm/intimidate, rather than some arbitrary skill stat. The problem is that there's no reputation for 'reasonable' or 'coldly logical' or anything like that.
*** The sequel actually improves it if you understand how the system works. Charm and Intimidate checks are based on a percentage of Paragon/Renegade points you have compared to the maximum you could have at that point. You can start with a massive bonus to one, if not both. Thus you spend a huge chunk of the game at over 100% (far above any check requirement), even if you play completely neutrally. In the original, you couldn't max the related skills without 75+% anyways. It wasn't possible for a completely neutral character to pass most Charm/Intimidate checks without abusing NewGamePlus.
*** If you avoid the more zealous options (which is perfectly possible), Paragon is reasonable and Renegade is coldly logical. You are not required to pick every single Paragon or Renegade option if that is how you want to role play the character.
** JustifiedTrope. Paragon and Renegade are not morality measures. They measure specifically how Shepard deals with various situations. Borders of FridgeBrilliance for penalizing neutral players given that they lack the reasonable, diplomatic nature of the Paragon and zealous, intimidating nature of the Renegade. Not unreasonable to expect someone that is neither diplomatic nor intimidating to have trouble convincing hostile creatures to do what he wants.

* Averted in earlier editions of ''DungeonsAndDragons''. Many aligment-specific abilities (protection from good/evil, detect good/evil) were removed from the latest edition because many players chose neutral characters for the sole reason to be immune to these abilities.

In many games with a KarmaMeter, you get extensive bonuses in terms of [[BadPowersGoodPeople special]] [[BadPowersBadPeople moves]], bonus interactions and [[RelationshipValues influence with squadmates]]. But you tend not to get too much for not being an utter saint or bastard.

People who take the middle of the road miss out on all the nice event flags, combat bonuses and team relationships that moral or immoral characters gain. Rarely is it that a game plans a specific path for a neutral character. In many cases this is taken to the extreme with the game not even ''recognising'' the neutral path. Equally, if there's an axis for OrderVersusChaos, people who take the neutral path there are not going to be recognised for their behaviour. Game designers almost seem to assume that players will go to one extreme or the other.

The end result is a character who may have missed out on crucial special abilities, who will not have gained from any morality-related side quests and whose relations and issues with his team will be unresolved to a large extent, leaving a weaker team and an empty, unresolved feel to the game.

!!Examples:

[[AC:Bioware]]
* In ''BaldursGate'', you can play a neutral alignment, but most quest rewards are based on a good/evil option, and rewards are biased towards good, [[EvilPaysBetter subverting the normal temptation for players.]] Neutral-aligned party members are happy to stay with a group with saintly reputation, and even evil companions will only leave at the higher reputation levels.
* ''KnightsOfTheOldRepublic'' forces you to miss out on the top range upgrades for certain force powers if you aren't the right alignment. Good characters miss out on top-range bad powers like kill, Evil characters lose the best healing-related arts, and neutral characters don't get any of the top-tier abilities.

** This is why cross-class mods are very popular for Carth and Mission. They're actually ''higher'' on the KarmaMeter than the Jedi you recruit and get some interesting bonuses as a result.

* ''MassEffect'' characters who avoid going Paragon or Renegade lose key dialogue options which can be crucial to resolving conflicts without having to get into a fight, as your KarmaMeter unlocks the top end Charm or Intimidate points.

* JadeEmpire has a choice of really powerful techniques you can only learn if you're strongly aligned with one end of the meter or another. Open Palm gets Stone Immortal and Paralyzing Palm while Closed Fist gets Tempest and Hidden Fist.

[[AC:StarWars]]
* In ''StarWars: DarkForces 2: JediKnight'', as well as the sequels, [[ColonCancer Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy]], you can go down either the light side or the dark side. Usually the dark side will require you to be a CompleteMonster.

[[AC: Action Games]]
* In both ''{{Overlord}}'' games, you must have 100% of either alignment to get the alternative endings. Otherwise you just get the vanilla ones.
* ''{{Fable}}'' is a notable aversion of this. While there are times where you have to make a flat Good or Evil decision, most of these are pretty clear-cut cases (will you spare the bandit or kill him?) and you don't recieve any penalties for staying neutral. The townsfolk will even comment on this, discussing your characters unpredictability. The ending of the Lost Chapters is pretty neutral, coming down to a straight fight between you and the villain.
** ''Fable 2'' likewise doesn't really penalise you for staying neutral, other than affecting prices, and even then you don't have to be a paragon of virtue or the scariest person alive to talk the townsfolk into giving you a better deal. There are also more neutral choices. At the start of the game, you have a chance to free some townsfolk or let them become slaves for a bribe. One of the options is to walk clean away from the situation altogether after the bandit attacks you anyway, leaving them in their cages for someone else to either let out or enslave. You've cleared the roadblock to Bowerstone, from your perspective its {{Somebody Elses Problem}}. And there is an explicitly neutral ending option.
* Aversion: Do you want to see ''ShadowTheHedgehog'' kill Dr. Eggman? It only happens in his most neutral endings. (Aside from how you have to get all 10 endings to beat the game, anyway.)
* ''{{inFamous}}'': If you're not a total saint or utter bastard, you're limited to the basic combat powers that you start with.

[[AC: First Person Shooters]]
* ''{{Bioshock}}'' rewards you for saving the lives of little sisters instead of killing them for ADAM, but you only get the good ending for saving all of them; the 'neutral' finale is almost identical to the 'evil' one. The sequel has more moral options and more variations depending on your choices through the game. However, YourMileageMayVary on the 'morality' the game uses to judge those choices.
** Averted by its sequel which does have a neutral ending. Two in fact (chosen by a QuicktimeEvent).
* ''DeusEx'' has three endings: [[spoiler:Meld with the AI to become a benevolent dictator, go back to 20th century corporate domination, or go back to the Dark Ages]]. They're all more or less neutral, given the BlackAndGreyMorality in the game, making this something of an aversion of the usualy good-evil {{railroading}} a lot of games apply.

[[AC: Flight Simulators]]
* Mostly averted in ''AceCombat Zero''. Playing the 'Soldier' Ace Style is just as viable as the two others, but it's ''much'' harder to maintain, particularly if you're after the Supreme Soldier medal, which requires you to finish the game with the karma meter almost perfectly in the middle (in essence, you need to shoot down exactly half the yellow targets in every mission)

[[AC: {{RPG}}s]]

* In the text-based MUD ''Dark & Shattered Lands'', there are gods of Good, Evil and Neutrality, and characters are required to pick one at character creation. Unfortunately for the neutrals, the whole game is an enormous battle between good and evil, and all of the useful options and killer clans are aligned as such.
* Averted in ''Nethack'', where neutral characters are expected to follow their own set of behaviours that are more distinct than those of chaotic and lawful characters, as well as possessing their own set of gods and InfinityPlusOneSword.

* Unintentionally averted in Fallout 3 (but not in the first two games), where the karma meter has such a minuscule effect on game play that the player can pretty much do as he pleases with little penalty. There's even a perk which only works for neutral karma characters, whose effect is also rather underwhelming. Unfortunately, quest paths and rewards do often go by the good vs. evil choices, which is a shame (though in all fairness, the neutral path of "I honestly don't care" and avoiding the whole situation all together leads to essentially no quest...).

* In TwilightHeroes, there are bonuses for having a certain Reputation, but only if that reputation is at one end or the other of one of the two Karma scales (Honor and Selflessness).


[[AC: Simulation Games]]
* In ''TheSims 2: Apartment Life'' neutral witches only get half the number of spells as their good and evil counterparts (due to neutral spell being able to be cast by any witch, while good and evil spells can only be cast by their respective alignments), and cannot craft any special witch furniture, such as the motive restoring thrones.

[[AC: Strategy Games]]
* Averted in ''GalacticCivilizations II'': When your civilization chooses an alignment, all three alignments (good, neutral and evil) have bonuses.

* Inverted in ''OgreBattle'', where keeping your leader neutral allows the recruitment of more special characters.
* ''{{Dune}} 2, The Battle for Arrakis'' on the SegaGenesis, features the noble Atreides, the dastardly Harkonnen...and the [[InformedAbility Clever]] [[OriginalGeneration Ordos]]. The Ordos, as it turns out, get new, heavier vehicles one or two turns ''after'' everyone else already does. Their unique units also tend to be inferior to those of the other factions.

* Medieval TotalWar II has this. You'll get bonuses to your chivalry stats if you keep taxes low and do other "honourable" things while governing your lands and leading your men to battle, and dread points as your characters march merrily towards [[CompleteMonster complete monsterdom]] burning, raping, pillaging and [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking taxing]] all the way. But you get nowt for more moderate decisions (keeping the taxes at neutral, sacking towns rather than exterminating or peacefully occupying them in a manner unlikely in an undisciplined medieval army, or ransoming prisoners, the normal method of returning captured soldiers to their side.)
** Except for [[MoneyDearBoy lots of money]]. Sacking and ransoming may not lead to you being feared or loved, but you'll be much wealthier from it.

[[AC: SurvivalHorror]]
* Aversion: ''TheSuffering'' has a Good, a Bad and a Neutral ending.
** Non-aversion: The sequel gives you upgrades to your SuperMode that vary depending on whether you're good or evil. There's only one neutral upgrade, and it's not all that impressive.

[[AC: WebOriginal]]
* Lampshaded regularly in ''ZeroPunctuation''.

[[AC: {{Tabletop RPG}}s]]
* Averted in earlier editions of ''DungeonsAndDragons''. Many aligment-specific abilities (protection from good/evil, detect good/evil) were removed from the latest edition because many players chose neutral characters for the sole reason to be immune to these abilities.
----

->"I know all the things you do, that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish that you were one or the other!"
-->-- [[TheBible Revelation 3:15]][[hottip:*:"Hot" and "cold" in this instance are closer to the Lawful-Chaotic axis, not the Good-Evil axis]]

->"I'm sick of games that claim to have choice but really only come down to Mother Teresa or baby-eating. All I'm saying is that a little middle ground is nice now and then. ''[picture of Mother Teresa eating a baby]''"
-->-- ZeroPunctuation on ''{{Bioshock}}''

In many games with a KarmaMeter, you get extensive bonuses in terms of [[GoodPowersGoodPeople special]] [[BadPowersBadPeople moves]], bonus interactions and [[RelationshipValues influence with squadmates]]. But you tend not to get too much for not being an utter saint or bastard.

* ''DeusEx'' has three endings: [[spoiler:Meld with the AI to become a benevolent dictator, go back to 20th century corporate domination, or go back to the DarkAges]]. They're all more or less neutral, given the BlackAndGreyMorality in the game, making this something of an aversion of the usualy good-evil {{railroading}} a lot of games apply.

* Totally straight in ''LordsOfTheRealm 3''. In long games, Good-aligned players will attract various champions, as well as four archangels. Evil-aligned players amass an army of infamous villains, as well as the four HorsemenOfTheApocalypse. Neutral-aligned players have no special benefits to speak of.

-->-- [[TheBible Revelation 3:15]]

* Thankfully averted in ''DragonAge''. The karma meter has been removed completely, replaced with personal approval meters for your companions. But you don't have to pander to them. You can also bribe them with gifts and act however you want to otherwise.

* Inverted in ''{{Arcanum}}'', where there is a gauge that measures whether you use technology or magic more. If you stray too far in either direction, things from the other side won't work with any reliability. If you remain neutral, you can use both magic and technology.

* {{Subverted}} in ''{{Arcanum}}'', where there is a gauge that measures whether you use technology or magic more. If you stray too far in either direction, things from the other side won't work with any reliability. If you remain neutral, you can use both magic and technology.

** The sequel (although it was made by Obisidan) averted this by make your Pet Crystal superpowerful if you are neutral. But, it's mostly non-averted: to get a prestige class, you need to go to the extremes...and you would still have a pretty decent crystal.

* JadeEmpire has a choice of really powerful techniques you can only learn if you're strongly aligned with one end of the meter or another. Open Palm gets Stone Immortal and paralyzing Palm while Closed Fist gets Tempest and Hidden Fist.

* In TwilightHeroes, there are bonuses for having a certain Reputation, but only if that reputation is at one end or the other of one of the scales.

* In Twilightheroes, there are bonuses for having a certain Reputation, but only if that reputation is at one end or the other of one of the scales.

** Also, if you max out the karma meter in either direction, you get a substantial bonus to one of your stats. You get nothing at all for maintaining perfect neutrality.

** Averted by its sequal which does have a netral ending. Two in fact (chosen by a QuicktimeEvent).