History Main / GrapplingWithGrapplingRules

* 1[[superscritp:st]], 2[[superscritp:nd]], and 3[[superscritp:rd]] edition ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons.'' ...especially First Edition ''AD&D''. *shudder*
** 3[[superscritp:rd]] Edition (note: 3[[superscritp:rd]] edition is built off the "d20 system", that is, everything runs off a simple "Roll 1d20, add relevant modifiers vs. opponent's modifiers/required roll" for everything BUT grappling rules and damage dice) fell prey to this in an interesting way. [[http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Grapple Flowcharts]] are required to figure out what's going on in ''TabletopGame/{{Pathfinder}}'', and that's an incredibly cleaned up version of 3[[superscritp:rd]] Edition's grappling rules. The original mechanics for grappling were ''worse''.
** Overbearing an enemy in 1[[superscritp:st]] and 2[[superscritp:nd]] edition was simply a horrifying, game-breaking rule. Players and [=GMs=] who used it made the others at the table cry or shudder in disbelief, though often only after a twenty minute review of the rules. In 1[[superscritp:st]] edition ''AD&D'', non-lethal combat was modified by ability scores (among other things) but ''not'' by character level, additionally large bonuses to grappling and overbearing were given based on relative height ''and'' relative weight: therefore it was perfectly possible for a 20th level fighter (read: a legendary warrior whose skills were at the peak the core rule books' range) to be pulled down and pounded into paste by a gang of 9-foot tall ogres who should, by all rights, be running for their lives. In "normal" melee combat, the ogres were more suitable for characters for 2nd-5th level, depending on how your particular GM chose to balance his campaigns. In 2[[superscritp:nd]] edition, grappling capabilities ''were'' modified by character level just like a normal melee attack, and so having a high-level human fighter tackle and pin a frost giant -- without any Strength boosting equipment -- wasn't that hard. ''Player's Option'' (the late 2[[superscritp:nd]] edition books) made it worse. YMMV on which problem -- having character level rendered mostly irrelevant by a specific attack mode or sending the laws of mechanics off to cry in a corner -- is more of an obstacle to gameplay.
** Averted in 4[[superscritp:th]] edition, but only by almost completely removing all grappling rules whatsoever. The "grab" action in 4[[superscritp:th]] resembles a game of freeze tag: You only need one hand free to grab an opponent, who can't move away without escaping the grab but is free to remain standing up. You can both still make attacks and take most other actions as normal. And now brought back, sorta. There's now an entire Fighter build designed around grappling the target. However, instead of grappling being a special maneuver, now most powers say either "...and the target is grabbed." Or, for more complicated ones like using a HumanShield, "Requires: A grabbed target."

** Averted in 5[[superscritp:th]] edition, where grappling is now just an opposed skill check of Athletics for the grappler and Acrobatics for the grapplee and (usually) just stops the grapplee from moving.

-> '''Anakin''': I try and grapple with the driver. \\
'''R2-D2''': Oh no...\\
'''Padme''': Oops. \\
'''Obi-Wan''': Um... \\
'''Anakin''': What? Aren't there rules for grappling in this game? Why are you all covering your dice?

!!Straight Examples

[[folder: Tabletop Games ]]

* 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons.'' ...especially First Edition ''AD&D''. *shudder*
** 3rd Edition (note: 3rd edition is built off the "d20 system", that is, everything runs off a simple "Roll 1d20, add relevant modifiers vs. opponent's modifiers/required roll" for everything BUT grappling rules and damage dice) fell prey to this in an interesting way. [[http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Grapple Flowcharts]] are required to figure out what's going on in TabletopGame/{{Pathfinder}}, and that's an incredibly cleaned up version of 3rd Edition's grappling rules. The original mechanics for grappling were ''worse''.
** Overbearing an enemy in 1st and 2nd edition was simply a horrifying, game-breaking rule. Players and [=GMs=] who used it made the others at the table cry or shudder in disbelief, though often only after a twenty minute review of the rules. In 1st edition AD&D, non-lethal combat was modified by ability scores (among other things) but ''not'' by character level, additionally large bonuses to grappling and overbearing were given based on relative height ''and'' relative weight: therefore it was perfectly possible for a 20th level fighter (read: a legendary warrior whose skills were at the peak the core rule books' range) to be pulled down and pounded into paste by a gang of 9-foot tall ogres who should, by all rights, be running for their lives. In "normal" melee combat, the ogres were more suitable for characters for 2nd-5th level, depending on how your particular GM chose to balance his campaigns. In 2nd edition, grappling capabilities ''were'' modified by character level just like a normal melee attack, and so having a high level human fighter tackle and pin a frost giant - without any Strength boosting equipment - wasn't that hard. ''Player's Option'' (the late 2nd edition books) made it worse. YMMV on which problem - having character level rendered mostly irrelevant by a specific attack mode or sending the laws of mechanics off to cry in a corner - is more of an obstacle to gameplay.
** Averted in 4th, but only by almost completely removing all grappling rules whatsoever. The "grab" action in 4th resembles a game of freeze tag: You only need one hand free to grab an opponent, who can't move away without escaping the grab but is free to remain standing up. You can both still make attacks and take most other actions as normal.
*** And now brought back, sorta. There's now an entire Fighter build designed around grappling the target. However, instead of grappling being a special maneuver, now most powers say either "...and the target is grabbed." Or, for more complicated ones like using a HumanShield, "Requires: A grabbed target."

*** If you ''do'' understand the grappling rules, you get the [[GoodBadBugs grapple ball of speed]] [[http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6456612 (explained in detail here)]], where the player characters can take turns pulling each other by intentionally failing their checks.
** Averted in 5th edition, where grappling is now just an opposed skill check of Athletics for the grappler and Acrobatics for the grapplee and (usually) just stops the grapplee from moving.
* ''TabletopGame/{{GURPS}}''.

* ''TabletopGame/{{Exalted}}'' has relatively simple grappling rules -- they're about one paragraph and use the same rolls as everything else in combat -- but their ''balance'' is problematic, since they basically leave you defenseless and trivially vulnerable to being one-hit killed by anyone not in the grapple, functionally making even a simple grab into an instant touch of death.

* ''TabletopGame/MutantsAndMasterminds'' uses a mildly tweaked version of the d20 grappling system with all of the attendant problems and difficulties. But the combination of a PointBuildSystem and SuperStrength (or {{Telekinesis}}) means that a grapple-oriented character with the right feats can easily break the system if the GM allows them to. To give you an idea of the potentials of abuse, one of the starting archetypes has a grapple check bonus of +27.

** Same with the ''Mechwarrior'' RPG. The rule books give about one page to trying to present grappling rules using adapted wargame mechanics, then appears to give up and point out that [[WhyDontYouJustShootHim simply attacking someone with a weapon is much easier and more effective.]]

[[folder: Video Games ]]

* ''VideoGame/DwarfFortress'', in this as in so many other things, is so beautifully detailed as to be nearly worthless. You can grab any visible body part of the opponent with any of your grasping limbs. (Note that "any of your grasping limbs" means you can technically break someone's elbow using only your right thigh, or have six different teeth grabbing six different body-parts.) Theoretically you can snap bones and break necks if you perform the proper sequence of operations, but mostly you'll end up awkwardly grasping and releasing the enemy's elbow several times. Also, the only combat advantage grabs themselves give, no matter what you grab, is the enemy being unable to dodge.

[[folder: Newspaper Comics ]]

[[folder: Webcomics ]]

* ''Webcomic/DarthsAndDroids'', quoted above. As shown here: http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0232.html.
** In the next strip we find out the grapple rules have their own supplement, which is bigger than the core rulebook. [[http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0233.html Then the GM decides to crash the flying car they're on.]]
** While the regular GM would rather give up than deal with the grappling rules, when [[{{Munchkin}} Pete]] later stands in as substitute GM he [[http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0344.html takes pride in using the full system]]. But that doesn't give the full impact of it, so this [[http://darthsanddroids.net/comics/darths0344_bonus.jpg THIS]] is the full uncut version with the true insanity level.
*** Worth noting is, although Pete was being a KillerGameMaster for most of that session, he can only claim credit for the opponent and the surrounding hazards; the end result of that fight putting Jim in a horrible position was all this trope.
*** Also worth noting is that Pete, [[CrazyPrepared having foreseen the possibility of a grapple on his watch]], set up a few flowcharts and tables to streamline the process. It still takes in excess of a hundred panels. Imagine how long it would've taken for the regular GM to thumb through the rulebook.

[[folder: Web Original ]]

* ''Blog/ThingsMrWelchIsNoLongerAllowedToDoInAnRPG'' #999 ("I can't train squirrel mobs to abuse the grapple rules."). This is primarily a reference to 3rd ed. ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'', which allows dozens of tiny creatures to gang up on large ones, each one gaining a significant bonus for every other combatant. Or at least, allowing sixteen grapple rolls, one of which will inevitably be a CriticalHit. Granted, the latter doesn't help on a grapple check if their modifier is too low to win even then, which is why the true {{Munchkin}} [[SynchronizedSwarming trains the squirrels to use the Aid Another action]]. Those that make a successful attack against a flat AC of 10 (probably about three out of four squirrels) each grant a stacking +2 bonus on the character's grapple check (or attack roll or armor class, at the squirrel's option).

-->'''Gunslinger''': Or even better yet, you can grapple him, he'll be ''way'' easier to hit then!\\
'''Barbarian''': He will [[FriendlyFire or I will]]?\\
'''Bard''': I'll find the grappling rules!\\
'''Barbarian, Bard, and Villain''': [[BigNo No]]!

* The first and second editions of ''TabletopGame/UnknownArmies'' kinda falls prey to this trope, although not as much or in the same way as you'd think. The 'grappling rules' in the combat rules were more complicated than the rest of combat (except for maybe the suppressive fire and autofire rules). The most annoying part, however, was that they weren't given in the more 'standard' part of the rules, alongside disarming and throwing, like they should've. Instead, they were crammed into the HTH cherries examples list, thus making them look like they were completely optional and used exclusively in special cases, when they really shouldn't have.

* ''TabletopGame/UnknownArmies'' kinda falls prey to this trope, although not as much or in the same way as you'd think. The 'grappling rules' in the combat rules were more complicated than the rest of combat (except for maybe the suppressive fire and autofire rules). The most annoying part, however, was that they weren't given in the more 'standard' part of the rules, alongside disarming and throwing, like they should've. Instead, they were crammed into the HTH cherries examples list, thus making them look like they were completely optional and used exclusively in special cases, when they really shouldn't have.

* Soundly averted in ''TabletopGame/TheWitcherGameOfImagination'', due to the general nature of the game mechanics. Grappling is just one of the hand-to-hand maneuvers. Performing one goes under the same rules as any other attack, just like in case of any other maneuvers. To break free, it only takes a standard check of either ''Acrobatics'', ''Flexibility'' or own ''Unarmed combat''. Even if you don't happen to have any of the skills, you can still try to perform the check - it just won't be modified by the skill. Clean, simple, reliable.
** Enemy already grappled? Each round the attacker deals 2d3+Strength of damage, until the victim breaks free, dies or the grappling is simply stopped.
** One of the expansions added few other maneuvers that require to grapple your enemy first or automatically apply grappled status if successful.

* Sort of averted in the ''TabletopGame/HeroSystem'', in that the grappling rules aren't significantly more complicated than the rest of the combat system. Note, however, that Hero System is notorious for its {{Doorstopper}} rulebook.
* Averted in ''TabletopGame/{{Shadowrun}}'', which has about a third of a page worth of grappling rules. It isn't necessary to go into more detail, because the sheer lethality of [[{{BFG}} every]][[KatanasAreJustBetter thing]] [[FunctionalMagic el]][[ChunkySalsaRule se]] makes it so that very few fights get into such close quarters.

* The ''TabletopGame/StreetFighter'' roleplaying game tried to avoid issues by taking the FightingGame approach, which is OK in some respects (say, if you have the Bearhug manoeuvre, or the Spinning Piledriver; you get what you use), but can be seen as lacking some flexibility. What would you do if, say, you had to hold someone still, and your only Grab manoeuvre you bought was the grab-and-toss Throw?

* Mentioned in ''Webcomic/TheOrderOfTheStick'', when Nale accuses Sabine of "playtesting the grappling rules with [Elan's] tongue!" (It was a long kiss.)

* ''WebVideo/Hadriex'' takes it to the limit in [[https://youtu.be/Qjkly4PRkGA?t=55m52s this clip.]]

** Averted HARD in 5th edition, where grappling is now just an opposed skill check of Athletics for the grappler and Acrobatics for the grapplee and (usually) just stops the grapplee from moving.

** Averted HARD in 5th edition, where grappling is now just an opposed skill check of Athletics for the grappler and Acrobatics for the grapplee.

** Applied to any RPG by Palladium. It's not that the rules were particularly complex or anything, but Palladium's rulebooks were so insanely organized that you would have to look in at least five places to find the rules covering anything. To crown it all, Palladium rulebooks usually didn't have indexes.

* ''VideoGame/DwarfFortress'', in this as in so many other things, is so beautifully detailed as to be nearly worthless. You can grab any visible body part of the opponent with any of your grasping limbs. (Note that "any of your grasping limbs" means you can technically break someone's elbow using only your right thigh, or have six different teeth grabbing six different body-parts.) Theoretically you can snap bones and break necks if you perform the proper sequence of operations, but mostly you'll end up awkwardly grasping and releasing the enemy's elbow several times. Also, the only combat advantage grabs themselves give, not matter what you grab is the enemy being unable to dodge.

** Enemy already grappled? Each round the attacker deals 2d3+Strenght of damage, until the victim breaks free, dies or the grappling is simply stopped.

[[AC:TabletopGames]]

[[AC:VideoGames]]

** And you can too, [[DifficultButAwesome if you can find out the (admittedly insane) ways to break bones, etc. every time.]] Performing a "pinch" as a coup de grâce on an unconscious opponent ''[[OffWithHisHead causes their head to pop off and fly several meters]]''.

[[AC:NewspaperComics]]

[[AC:{{Webcomics}}]]

[[AC:WebOriginal]]

** ...Aaaand, since half of the fanbase seems to want more detail and realism, a new supplement, called Technical Grappling, is on the way.

* ''VideoGame/DwarfFortress'', in this as in so many other things, is so beautifully detailed as to be nearly worthless. You can grab any visible body part of the opponent with any of your grasping limbs. (Note that "any of your grappling limbs" means you can technically break someone's elbow using only your right thigh, or have six different teeth grabbing six different body-parts.) Theoretically you can snap bones and break necks if you perform the proper sequence of operations, but mostly you'll end up awkwardly grasping and releasing the enemy's elbow several times. Also, the only combat advantage grabs themselves give, not matter what you grab is the enemy being unable to dodge.

* ''Blog/ThingsMrWelchIsNoLongerAllowedToDoInAnRPG'' #999 ("I can't train squirrel mobs to abuse the grapple rules."). This is primarily a reference to 3rd ed. ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'', which allows dozens of tiny creatures to gang up on large ones, each one gaining a significant bonus for every other combatant. Or at least, allowing sixteen grapple rolls, one of which will inevitably be a CriticalHit. Granted, the latter doesn't help on a grapple check if their modifier is too low to win even then, which is why the true {{Munchkin}} trains the squirrels to use the Aid Another action. Those that make a successful attack against a flat AC of 10 (probably about three out of four squirrels) each grant a stacking +2 bonus on the character's grapple check (or attack roll or armor class, at the squirrel's option).

* Both ''TabletopGame/OldWorldOfDarkness'' and [[TabletopGame/NewWorldOfDarkness the new.]] You might think a system in which vampires grappling helpless victims on a daily basis would have a simple means of determining success...

** While the regular GM would rather give up than deal with the grappling rules, when [[{{Munchkin}} Pete]] later stands in as substitute GM he [[http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0344.html takes pride in using the full system]]. But doesn't give the full impact of it, so this [[http://darthsanddroids.net/comics/darths0344_bonus.jpg THIS]] is the full uncut version with the true insanity level.

* ''Blog/ThingsMrWelchIsNoLongerAllowedToDoInAnRPG'' #999 ("I can't train squirrel mobs to abuse the grapple rules."). This is primarily a reference to 3rd ed. ''TabletopGame/AdvancedDungeonsAndDragons'', which allowed dozens of tiny creatures to gang up on large ones, each one gaining a significant bonus for every other combatant. Or at least, allowing sixteen grapple rolls, one of which will inevitably be a CriticalHit. Granted, the latter doesn't help on a grapple check if their modifier is too low to win even then, which is why the true {{Munchkin}} trains the squirrels to use the Aid Another action. Those that make a successful attack against a flat AC of 10 (probably about three out of four squirrels) each grant a stacking +2 bonus on the character's grapple check (or attack roll or armor class, at the squirrel's option).

!!Examples:

[[AC:Examples]]

* The ''StreetFighter'' roleplaying game tried to avoid issues by taking the FightingGame approach, which is OK in some respects (say, if you have the Bearhug manoeuvre, or the Spinning Piledriver; you get what you use), but can be seen as lacking some flexibility. What would you do if, say, you had to hold someone still, and your only Grab manoeuvre you bought was the grab-and-toss Throw?

* ''NinjasAndSuperspies''. In the words of someone who tried it: "It's the gaming equivalent of Cthulhu." The sad thing is you can build whole characters based off of grappling.
* Sort of averted in the ''HeroSystem'', in that the grappling rules aren't significantly more complicated than the rest of the combat system. Note, however, that Hero System is notorious for its {{Doorstopper}} rulebook.

* At least until the third edition of ''TheDarkEye'', grappling (save for one very specific fighting style) did only do damage to stamina and not to HP, meaning you could not kill anyone with your bare hands.
* ''BurningWheel'' grappling is extremely complex, though the difference between it and the rest of its combat system isn't as great as many systems due to overall complexity.

* The first edition of the ''LegendOfTheFiveRings'' RPG had a distinct lack of grappling rules, until a supplement introduced the Mizu-do unarmed combat learned by some Crane. The rules were unbalanced, especially the joint lock maneuver. A starting character who was reasonably skilled in Mizu-do had about a 50% chance of disarming and incapacitating the greatest warriors in Rokugan using this manuever, because the target's stats were completely irrelevant to whether the manuever succeeded.
* Most '''Tabletopgame/BattleTech'' players are largely unaware the game even has grapple rules. The rules themselves are actually quite simple and generally intuitive, taking up a mere half page of text, but are restricted to the advanced ''Tactical Operations'' tech level 3 rules. They are one of the few rules not to be included in ANY of its [[Videogame/MechWarrior videogame]] adaptations.
** Same with the ''Mechwarrior'' RPG. The rule books give about one page to trying to present grappling rules using adapted wargame mechanics, then appears to give up and point out that [[WhyDontYouJustShootHim simply attacking someone with a weapon is much easier and more effective.]]

[[AC:Parodies]]

* ''Blog/ThingsMrWelchIsNoLongerAllowedToDoInAnRPG'' #999 ("I can't train squirrel mobs to abuse the grapple rules."). This is primarily a reference to 3rd ed. ''TabletopGame/AdvancedDungeonsAndDragons'', which allowed dozens of tiny creatures to gang up on large ones, each one gaining a significant bonus for every other combatant. Or at least, allowing sixteen grapple rolls, one of which will inevitably be a CriticalHit. Granted, the latter doesn't help on a grapple check if their modifier is too low to win even then, which is why the true {{Munchkin}} trains the squirrels to use the Aid Another action. Those that make a successful attack against a flat AC of 10 (probably about three out of four squirrels) each grant a stacking +2 bonus on the character's grapple check (or attack roll or armor class, at the squirrel's option).
* A classic ''ComicStrip/KnightsOfTheDinnerTable'' strip concerns the knights (well really Brian), abusing Hackmasters "overbearing" (historically the absolutely most confusing and loopholed part of ''AD&D'''s unarmed combat rules) to take the Adventure OffTheRails. Mere mention of the term "Beggar Mobs" can crack fans up.

** Overbearing an enemy in 1st and 2nd edition was simply a horrifying, game-breaking rule. Players and [=GMs=] who used it made the others at the table cry or shudder in disbelief, though often only after a twenty minute review of the rules. It was perfectly possible for a 20th level fighter (read: a legendary warrior whose skills were at the peak the core rule books' range) to be pulled down and pounded into paste by a gang of basic ogres who should, by all rights, be running for their lives. In "normal" combat, the ogres were more suitable for characters for 2nd-5th level, depending on how your particular GM chose to balance his campaigns. Likewise, having a high level human fighter tackle and pin a frost giant - without any Strength boosting equipment - wasn't that hard. ''Player's Option'' (the late 2nd edition books) made it worse.