History Main / DuelingProducts

|| ''I'm A'' Mac || ''And I'm A'' Windows PC || Personal computers designed, developed, and marketed to users. Apple was the solution for the novice computer hobbyist that became Mac; IBM wanted a more business-friendly version whose OS became Windows. || Apple has focused less on advertising their features, and spent more time attacking windows [=PCs=]. Ads that do show their features tend to show features also available on competitor's products that the competitors often don't effectively advertise, such as art software, since much of it is made by third-parties instead of Microsoft themselves. Windows commercials typically advertise their features instead of their competitor's faults. || Technically ongoing, but Windows still has upwards to 90% market share between all versions, while the Mac usually hovers around the 7% mark. The "I'm a Mac" campaign itself, however, has been met with a fair bit of acclaim from the advertising/marketing community... and quite a bit of scorn from PC users who [[MisaimedFandom identify]] with the [[TheWoobie nerdy PC guy]] and see the Mac guy as a [[TheWesley pompous douchebag]]. The ad campaign is largely seen as a failure due to notoriety for [[ScapegoatAd repeatedly backfiring]].||

|| ''I'm A'' Mac || ''And I'm A'' Windows PC || Personal computers designed, developed, and marketed to users. Apple was the solution for the novice computer hobbyist that became Mac; IBM wanted a more business-friendly version whose OS became Windows. || Apple has focused less on advertising their features, and spent more time attacking windows [=PCs=]. Windows commercials typically advertise their features instead of their competitor's faults. Ads that do show their features tend to show features also available on competitor's products that the competitors often don't effectively advertise, such as video-conferencing on a smartphone. || Technically ongoing, but Windows still has upwards to 90% market share between all versions, while the Mac usually hovers around the 7% mark. The "I'm a Mac" campaign itself, however, has been met with a fair bit of acclaim from the advertising/marketing community... and quite a bit of scorn from PC users who [[MisaimedFandom identify]] with the [[TheWoobie nerdy PC guy]] and see the Mac guy as a [[TheWesley pompous douchebag]]. The ad campaign is largely seen as a failure due to notoriety for [[ScapegoatAd repeatedly backfiring]].||

|| ''I'm A'' Mac || ''And I'm A'' Windows PC || Personal computers designed, developed, and marketed to users. Apple was the solution for the novice computer hobbyist that became Mac; IBM wanted a more business-friendly version whose OS became Windows. || Apple has focused less on advertising their features, and spent more time attacking windows [=PCs=]. Windows commercials typically advertise their features instead of their competitor's faults. || Technically ongoing, but Windows still has upwards to 90% market share between all versions, while the Mac usually hovers around the 7% mark. The "I'm a Mac" campaign itself, however, has been met with a fair bit of acclaim from the advertising/marketing community... and quite a bit of scorn from PC users who [[MisaimedFandom identify]] with the [[TheWoobie nerdy PC guy]] and see the Mac guy as a [[TheWesley pompous douchebag]]. The ad campaign is largely seen as a failure due to notoriety for [[ScapegoatAd repeatedly backfiring]].||

|| GameStop || EB Games || International video game chain. || EB Games was founded in 1971 as an electronics store; GameStop began in 1984 as Babbage's. || GameStop by acquiring several competitors: Software Etc. (owned by B. Dalton), Waldensoftware (owned by Waldenbooks) and Funco Land, then by acquiring EB Games itself. ||

|| Barnes & Noble || Borders || National bookstore chain. Both also owned smaller mall-based stores (B. Dalton and Waldenbooks, respectively). || Barnes & Noble was founded in 1917, Borders in 1971. || While Barnes & Noble closed the B. Dalton division in 2010, the chain is still doing relatively well. Borders crashed and burned in July 2011. ||

|| Kmart || Walmart || National-to-international discount retail chain. || Both founded in 1962, although Kmart was spun off from the S.S. Kresge dime store chain, which dissolved in 1987. || Walmart is an international monster and shows no signs of stopping. Kmart stores have been dropping like flies since the mid-1990s, including complete withdrawal from some markets. ||

|| Oreo || Hydrox || Chocolate sandwich cookies with cream filling. || Sunshine Biscuits rolled out Hydrox back in 1908, while Nabisco produced Oreo four years later. || Oreo still thrives today. Hydrox was reformulated as Droxies in 1996, and then discontinued in 2001, only for Kellogg's (which now owns the Sunshine brand) to revive the cookie for a limited time for its 100th anniversary in 2008. Despite the weak sales (and the disinfectant-sounding name), Hydrox still has a strong cult following, and is said to be far superior to Oreo. ||

|| Kindle || Nook || E-book readers, which are tablet-like devices that display digital versions of books in a smaller, water-resistant form. || Amazon came out with their Kindle back in 2007, while Barnes & Noble's Nook came out two years later. || Hard to tell at this point, but the Kindle seems to have more exposure.

Like DuelingShows or DuelingMovies, sometimes two (or more) items in the market are in direct competition of one another. Like always these products have to be in use at the same time, otherwise it's FollowTheLeader or SerialNumbersFiledOff. Also the ConsoleWars have their own entry (along with their own [[DuelingGames dueling category.]]) It was [[SoCoolItsAwesome epic.]]

|| XboxLiveArcade || Playstation Store, WiiWare Marketplace || "Casual gaming" marketplaces for home gaming consoles. || Xbox Live Arcade debuted on the original Xbox, but really took off with the {{Xbox 360}}. The other two debuted on the {{Playstation 3}} and {{Wii}} respectively, and later expanded their range to include the PlaystationPortable and [[NintendoDS DSi]]. || Xbox Live Arcade is currently the most successful and has the best overall reputation, likely due to the fact that it was the first out and the Xbox 360 is currently selling better than the Playstation 3. The Playstation Store is also quite successful, albeit not to the same extent. On its own terms the [=WiiWare=] Marketplace would be in last place by an embarrassingly huge margin, but as an offshoot to Nintendo's already-successful Virtual Console service, they can probably live with that.

|| {{Steam}} || [=Direct2Drive=], Impulse, EA Store, Games for Windows Live marketplace, many others. || Internet-based game delivery and content management systems. || Steam was the brainchild of Valve, [=Direct2Drive=] was created by IGN, and the EA Store and Games for Windows Live marketplace, unsurprisingly, are run by ElectronicArts and {{Microsoft}} respectively. || Steam benefited from having a KillerApp in the form of ''HalfLife2'', and currently holds a commanding lead. [=Direct2Drive=] and Impulse squabble over who is in a decent second place (due to conflicting reports on their own share), and the other services scrap it out over the remaining marketshare. While the Games for Windows Live marketplace has been predicted to be the Next Big Thing, it remains to be seen whether that will actually happen.

|| {{Steam}} || [=Direct2Drive=], EA Store, Games for Windows Live marketplace, many others. || Internet-based game delivery and content management systems. || Steam was the brainchild of Valve, [=Direct2Drive=] was created by IGN, and the EA Store and Games for Windows Live marketplace, unsurprisingly, are run by ElectronicArts and {{Microsoft}} respectively. || Steam benefited from having a KillerApp in the form of ''HalfLife2'', and currently holds a commanding lead. [=Direct2Drive=] is in a decent second place, and the other services scrap it out over the remaining marketshare. While the Games for Windows Live marketplace has been predicted to be the Next Big Thing, it remains to be seen whether that will actually happen.

|| ''I'm A'' Mac || ''And I'm A'' Windows PC || Personal computers designed, developed, and marketed to users. Apple was the solution for the novice computer hobbyist that became Mac; IBM wanted a more business-friendly version whose OS became Windows. || Apple has focused less on advertising their features, and spent more time attacking windows [=PCs=]. Windows commercials typically advertise their features instead of their competitor's faults. || Ongoing, but Windows still has at least 80% market share between all versions. The "I'm a Mac" campaign itself, however, has been met with a fair bit of acclaim from the advertising/marketing community...and quite a bit of scorn from PC users who [[MisaimedFandom identify with the nerdy PC guy]] and see the Mac guy as a pompous douchebag. ||

|| Columbia 33 1/3 rpm long-playing record || RCA 45 rpm single record || Vinyl microgroove discs with better, quieter sound and more durability than shellac-based 78 rpm records. || Columbia introduced the 12-inch LP in 1948, but RCA was unwilling to license a competitor's technology and responded with the 7-inch 45 a year later. This battle became a draw, with both formats flourishing for nearly four decades, until compact discs overtook the former and cassettes the latter. ||

|| Quick Chop || Slap Chop || Food choppers. || Vince pitched the former once again, while Billy pitched the latter before that. || Quick Chop came out first, though the Slap Chop is more well-known.

|| Smarties || M&M's || Bite-sized candy-coated chocolate. || The former is made by Mars, while the latter is made by Nestlé. Smarties (not to be confused with the fruit-flavored American tablet candy marketed as Rockets elsewhere) are [[NoExportForYou not available in the U.S.]] except in special import stores. || M&M's has more exposure, but Smarties came out first, in 1882 (M&M's in the 1930s).

|| Video Home System (VHS) || Betamax || Devices to watch movies at home. || ''Marketing books have been written on the subject''. || Betamax is now synonymous with technological failure in the market, despite having better video/audio quality and durability. See also TheRuleOfFirstAdopters. ||

|| Slap Chop || Quick Chop || Food choppers. || Vince pitched the former once again, while Billy pitched the latter before that. || Quick Chop came out first, though the Slap Chop is more well-known.

|| M&M's || Smarties || Bite-sized candy-coated chocolate. || The former is made by Mars, while the latter is made by Nestlé. Smarties (not to be confused with the fruit-flavored American tablet candy marketed as Rockets elsewhere) are [[NoExportForYou not available in the U.S.]] except in special import stores. || M&M's has more exposure, but Smarties came out first, in 1882 (M&M's in the 1930s).

|| Sky Digital || [=ONDigital=] (later ITV Digital), NTL & Blueyonder Digital (later Virgin Media) || Subscription-based digital TV delivery systems in the UK, all launching in around 1998. || Sky Digital and NTL/Blueyonder were new versions of their existing analogue products, with all previous customers being upgraded to the digital versions by late 2001. [=ONDigital=] was an entirely new service based on digital terrestrial technology, and in mid-2001 was rebranded as ITV Digital in a marketing move (ITV already partly owned [=ONDigital=]. || Sky Digital was virtually guaranteed to win this war from Day 1, due to its existing subscriber base and the KillerApp of live [[EnglishPremierLeague Premier League]] football. NTL/Blueyonder did quite well, though the UK's rather limited cable network correspondingly limited their success. [=ONDigital=] barely kept their heads above later from 1998 to 2001, and ITV Digital later became arguably the most notorious corporate failure in UK history, as plummeting subscriber numbers and a vastly overpriced Football League[[hottip:* :The divisions below the Premier League, which absolutely no-one was interested in because the supporters of those teams generally tend to ''go to the matches themselves'']] contract saw the company disintegrate spectacularly in early 2002.

|| Filet-O-Fish || Hulaburger || Mc Donald's newest meal that was originally aim to the American Catholic demographic who didn't eat red meat on Friday's, and would instead eat at Big Boy restaurants, which served a fish sandwich. || The former was a battered fish patty in a bun with half a slice of processed cheese and tartar sauce made by food inventor Lou Groen, the latter was a sandwich with a pineapple slice on a bun with two pieces of cheese by Mc Donald's owner Ray Kroc. Interestingly, the latter was only made by Mr. Kroc as he [[ItWillNeverCatchOn believe the Filet-O-Fish was a stupid idea]] and his Hulaburger was much better. || Unfortunately for Mr. Kroc, he was wrong as the Filet-O-Fish was far more popular than his Hulaburger. To add insult to injury, not only did the Filet-O-Fish was popular to Catholics, but it was also popular with Muslims and non-red meat eaters as well. Today, Filet-O-Fish is still Mc Donald's most popular meal.

|| Axe/Lynx || Tag || Body sprays that have had a lot of success marketing to young men and teenagers. || [[SexForProduct "You'll get laid]] [[BlatantLies if you spray this on".]] || No winners yet. Only losers who use these products as a replacement for showering.

|| [=LaserDisc=] || Video CD; Capacitance Electronic Disc || Early disc-based video systems || [=LaserDisc=] hit the market first, and used humongous discs with an analogue data format. CED arrived a few years later (despite having been in development for longer than [=LaserDisc=]) and was basically a phonographic disc with video. Video CD was the last to hit, boasting the smallest discs and digital technology, but also had the lowest picture quality (worse than VHS, in fact). || None of the formats ever became particularly popular outside of the A/V enthusiast market, though [=LaserDisc=] was the most successful overall. CED crashed and burned pretty hard, losing developers RCA nearly a '''billion''' dollars and contributing to the demise of the company in 1986. Video CD never became especially successful outside of a few niche applications, but its SpiritualSuccessor, DVD would finally achieve mass-market popularity.

|| DVD-R(W) || DVD+R(W); DVD-RAM || Recordable and rewritable DVD formats || DVD-RAM was the first to the market, and had an entirely different design to the other two. DVD-R(W) and DVD+R(W) were very similar formats, but the latter had some subtle differences that supposedly gave it better back-compatibility with older DVD hardware. || A draw between DVD-R(W) and DVD+R(W) -- most manufacturers quickly started producing dual-mode DVD±RW drives, which nullified the differences between the two formats. Most users are still unsure as to why this format war ever started in the first place. DVD-RAM was definitely the least successful of the three; despite being the most technically advanced of the formats, it also suffered much more from compatibility problems than the other two formats.

|| HD DVD || Blu Ray || High definition optical disc format || See TheOtherWiki. || Toshiba discontinued their format on Feb 19, 2008. Three key situations that caused this was: Sony securing retailer support over time, WarnerBros. announcing that they would cease HD DVD support on Jan 4, 2008, and finally Wal-Mart announcing exclusive support. The {{PS3}} is assumed to be a factor, although the two other decisions were based on player sales ''other'' than the [=PS3=].[[hottip:* :This might have been a PyrrhicVictory, as Wal-Mart has recently announced DVD and Blu-ray movies will not be displayed on aisle caps due to slowing sales.]]

|| Slanket || Snuggie || Sweater blankets for those TooIncompetentToOperateABlanket. || (Wiki magic?) || The Snuggie seems to have more exposure.

|| Ford || Chevrolet || Mass-produced cars for regular people. ||Chevy brought color and variety and forced Ford away from an "as long as it's black" policy toward the frequent model changes that defined the golden age of American cars. || Chevy took the sales lead from Ford in the late '20s and held it for most of the rest of the 20th century; fast-forwarding a bit, GM has needed bailout money and Ford hasn't. Ford has become a worldwide brand, while GM has mainly used other names outside the Americas as a consequence of how the respective companies expanded.

|| Recipe Secrets || America's Most Wanted Recipes || Cloning brand name foods. || Recipe cloning of brand name foods by taking portions home, guessing how much ingredients are needed to make a single serving and the methods required to make it almost like the original. ''Almost'', partly [[YouWannaGetSued for legal reasons]] and partly becasue you can't get things like pure commercial-grade HFCS or preservatives in home-use quantities. || While Todd Wilbur has a great deal of popularity as early as the '90s as a recipe cloner, Ron Douglas managed to apparently "clone" the 11 herbs and spices in the Original Recipe Chicken, a closely guarded recipe. Wilbur also cloned snack foods which puts him at a higher advantage.

|| Zip Drive || LS-120 Superdrive; Sony [=HiFD=] || Floppy drive replacements, with similar-size disks, but vastly greater capacity. || The LS-120 and [=HiFD=] were compatible with 3.5" floppies, but the Zip Drive wasn't. Initially the Zip Drive had 100MB of storage, the LS-120 had (surprise) 120MB, and the [=HiFD=] had 150MB. Greater-sized versions of all of these would subsequently be released. || In truth, none of them; the CD-RW (and, subsequently, USB sticks) took over the market for these drives. Out of the three however, Zip Drive was the only one that could truly claim to be a success. LS-120 never really caught on, and [=HiFD=] was an embarrassing failure, after it turned out to have an irreparably flawed design.


|| Filet-O-Fish || Hulaburger || Mc Donald's newest meal that was originally aim to the American Catholic demographic who didn't eat red meat on Friday's. || The former was a battered fish patty in a bun with half a slice of processed cheese and tartar sauce made by food inventor Lou Groen, the latter was a sandwich with a pineapple slice on a bun with two pieces of cheese by Mc Donald's owner Ray Kroc. Interestingly, the latter was only made by Mr Kroc as he [[ItWillNeverCatchOn believe the Filet-O-Fish was a stupid idea]] and his Hulaburger was much better. || Unfortunately for Mr Kroc, he was wrong as the Filet-O-Fish was far more popular than his Hulaburger. To add insult to injury, not only did the Filet-O-Fish was popular to Catholics, but it was also popular with Muslims and non-red meat eaters as well. Today, Filet-O-Fish is still Mc Donald's most popular meal.

|| Axe/Lynx || Tag || Body sprays that have had a lot of success marketing to young men and teenagers. || [[SexForProduct "You'll get laid if you spray this on".]] || No winners yet. Only losers who use these products as a replacement for showering.

|| Zip Drive || LS-120 Superdrive; Sony [=HiFD=] || Floppy drive replacements, with similar-size disks, but vastly greater capacity. || The LS-120 and [=HiFD=] were compatible with 3.5" floppies, but the Zip Drive wasn't. Initially the Zip Drive had 100MB of storage, the LS-120 had (surprise) 120MB, and the [=HiFD=] had 150MB. Greater-sized versions of all of these would subsequently be released. || In truth, none of them; the CD-RW (and, subsequently, USB sticks) took over the market for these drives. Out of the three however, Zip Drive was the only one that could truly claim to be a success. LS-120 never really caught on, and [=HiFD=] was an embarrassing failure, after it turned out to have an irreparably flawed design.

|| M&M's || Smarties || Bite-sized candy-coated chocolate. || The former is made by Mars, while the latter is made by Nestlé. Smarties (not to be confused with the fruit-flavored American tablet candy marketed as Rockets elsewhere) are [[NoExportForYou not available in the U.S.]] except in special import stores. || M&M's has more exposure, but Smarties came out first, in 1882 (M&M's in the 1930s).

|| Recipe Secrets || America's Most Wanted Recipes || Cloning brand name foods. || Recipe cloning of brand name foods by taking portions home, guessing how much ingredients are needed to make a single serving and the methods required to make it almost like the original. Hey, [[YouWannaGetSued you don't wanna get sued now.]] || While Todd Wilbur has a great deal of popularity as early as the '90s as a recipe cloner, Ron Douglas managed to apparently "clone" the 11 herbs and spices in the Original Recipe Chicken, a closely guarded recipe. Wilbur also cloned snack foods which puts him at a higher advantage.

|| M&M's || Smarties || Bite-sized candy-coated chocolate. || The former is made by Mars, while the latter is made by Nestlé. Smarties (not to be confused with the fruit-flavored American tablet candy marketed as Rockets elsewhere) are not available in the U.S. except in special import stores. || M&M's has more exposure, but Smarties came out first, in 1882 (M&M's in the 1930s).

|| ''I'm A'' Mac || ''And I'm A'' Windows PC || Personal computers designed, developed, and marketed to users. Apple was the solution for the novice computer hobbyist that became Mac; IBM wanted a more business-friendly version whose OS became Windows. || Apple has focused less on advertising their features, and spent more time attacking windows [=PCs=]. Windows commercials typically advertise their features instead of their competitor's faults. || Ongoing, but Windows still has at least 80% market share between all versions. The "I'm a Mac" campaign itself, however, has been met with a fair bit of acclaim from the advertising/marketing community. ||

|| Slanket || Snuggie || Products for those TooIncompetentToOperateABlanket. || (Wiki magic?) || The Snuggie seems to have more exposure.

|| Slap Chop || Quick Chop || Food choppers. || Vince pitched the former once again, while Billy pitched the latter before that. || Quick Chop came out first, though the Slap Chop is more well-known.

Cue banjo music.

|| ''Barbie'' || ''Bratz'' || Dolls For Girls || Barbie was meant to be a revolutionary new way for little girls to play with dolls. Much later, Bratz took the "glamourous" lifestyle and ramped it [[UpToEleven up to 11]]. || Bratz took the title from Barbie rather resoundingly in terms of sales. Then a copyright lawsuit almost brought Bratz' to an end because Bratz's creator was a former Mattel employee.||

|| ''Coca-Cola'' || ''Pepsi'' || Carbonated Soft Drinks that were created around the same time and are both cola flavored.|| Coca-Cola has typically had more success with a "traditional" audience. Pepsi usually is more successful with younger audiences. || From TheOtherWiki...According to Beverage Digest's 2008 report on Carbonated Soft Drinks, [=PepsiCo=]'s U.S. market share is 30.8 percent, while The Coca-Cola Company's is 42.7 percent. Also, Coke was indisputably Number One in America for several decades...until [[TheyChangedItNowItSucks New Coke came out.]] It took them until the late 90s to get back into their mojo. ||

|| ''I'm A'' Mac || ''And I'm A'' Windows PC || Personal computers designed, developed, and marketed to users. Apple was the solution for the novice computer hobbyist that became Mac; IBM wanted a more business - friendly version whose OS became Windows || Apple has focused less on advertising their features, and spent more time attacking windows [=PCs=]. Windows commercials typically advertise their features instead of their competitor's faults. || Ongoing, but Windows still has at least 80% market share between all versions. The "I'm a Mac" campaign itself, however, has been met with a fair bit of acclaim from the advertising/marketing community ||

|| Axe/Lynx || Tag || Body Sprays that have had a lot of success marketing to young men and teenagers || [[SexForProduct "You'll get laid if you spray this on"]] || No winners yet. Only losers who use these products as a replacement for showering.

|| HD DVD || Blu Ray || High definition optical disc format || See TheOtherWiki. || Toshiba discontinued their format on Feb 19, 2008. Three key situations that caused this was: Sony securing retailer support over time, Warner Bros announcing that they would cease HD DVD support on Jan 4, 2008, and finally Wal-Mart announcing exclusive support. The {{PS3}} is assumed to be a factor, although the two other decisions were based on player sales ''other'' than the [=PS3=].[[hottip:*:This might have been a PyrrhicVictory, as Wal-Mart has recently announced DVD and Blu-ray movies will not be displayed on aisle caps due to slowing sales.]]

|| Video Home System (VHS) || Betamax || Devices to watch movies at home || ''Marketing books have been written on the subject'' || Betamax is now synonymous with technological failure in the market. See also TheRuleOfFirstAdopters.||

||XM Radio||Sirius Radio||Revolutionary Satellite Radio Providers||Very Similar Marketing Strategies. So much so that at the launch of this trope there's no a agreed discernable difference yet.||Sadly only losers. Neither company could survive on it's own and have now merge (Sirius bought XM if you want to get technical). The future is still murky.||

||Slanket||Snuggie||Products for those TooIncompetentToOperateABlanket||(Wiki magic?)||The Snuggie seems to have more exposure.

||Ford||Chevrolet||Mass-produced cars for regular people||Chevy brought color and variety and forced Ford away from an "as long as it's black" policy toward the frequent model changes that defined the golden age of American cars.||Chevy took the sales lead from Ford in the late 20s and held it for most of the rest of the 20th Century; fast-forwarding a bit, GM has needed bailout money and Ford hasn't. Ford's having become a worldwide brand while GM has mainly used other names outside the Americas is a consequence of how the respective companies expanded.

||British Satellite Broadcasting||Sky Television||Britain's official satellite TV contractor vs RupertMurdoch's more downmarket upstart||BSB hoped its superior technology and programming would win viewers, while Sky relied on cheaper equipment and aggressive marketing.||In the autumn of 1990, after six months going head-to-head, BSB conceded defeat, its CEO resigned, and it was taken over by Sky. Some of BSB's original investors remained with the new company, now called British Sky Broadcasting.

||Fender Guitars||Gibson Guitars||Solidbody electric guitars||In the early 1950's, the Gibson Les Paul and Fender Telecaster were the two primary solidbody electric guitars on the market. Since then, both companies have expanded their product lineup and landed nearly every big-name guitarist since the 1960's as endorsers.||Always going to be a matter of opinion as far as who makes the better product overall, but guitarists in general come out as winners. The difference in their products are significant enough that there's a market for the "Gibson sound" and the "Fender sound", and it's not uncommon to see players who have one of each, and the overwhelming majority of other guitar manufacturers are expanding (or improving) upon Fender or Gibson designs to some degree||

||Recipe Secrets||America's Most Wanted Recipes||Cloning Brand Name Foods||Recipe Cloning of brand name foods by taking portions home, guessing how much ingredients are needed to make a single serving and the methods required to make it almost like the original. Hey you don't wanna get sued now ||Todd Wilbur while he has a great deal of popularity as early as the 90's as a recipe cloner, Ron Douglas managed to apparently "Clone" the 11 herbs and spices in the Original Recipe Chicken, a closely guarded recipe. Todd Wilbur also cloned snack foods which puts Todd Wilbur at a higher advantage