History Main / AmbiguousStartOfDarkness

** It's revealed later in ''VideoGame/TheLegendOfZeldaTheMinishCap'' that the villain Vaati used to be Ezlo's harmless apprentice before stealing the Wishing Cap. Although Ezlo explains that Vaati became interested in humanity's potential for evil and tried to follow their example, he cannot say for sure whether he became that way over time or was always a DeceptiveDisciple. The manga adaptation depicts Vaati breaking down from serving as Ezlo's BeleagueredAssistant.

* ''WesternAnimation/TangledTheSeries'': [[spoiler:Cassandra]]'s FaceHeelTurn is not shown to the audience directly. We had roughly two episodes between the catalyst for their turn to evil and TheReveal. So whether it was something [[spoiler:she]] decided to do from the moment [[spoiler:the Enchanted Girl told her about her origins]] or if it was a spur-of-the-moment decision when they reached the Moonstone isn't known to us. The TraitorShot in Episode 20 implies the former, but the way [[spoiler:she]] [[SlowlySlippingIntoEvil Slowly Slips into Evil]] over the course of Season 3 implies the latter.

* Webcomic/GirlGenius: Lucrezia. In the backstory, she was the MadScientistsBeautifulDaughter who was redeemed by love and married TheHero Bill Heterodyne. In the present, she’s The Other, the main villain of the story. Whether her reformation was faked all along, or she turned evil again, or even if she was influenced or taken over in some way is still unknown.

* Webcomic/GirlGenius
:Lucrezia. In the backstory, she was the MadScientistsBeautifulDaughter who was redeemed by love and married TheHero Bill Heterodyne. In the present, she’s The Other, the main villain of the story. Whether her reformation was faked all along, or she turned evil again, or even if she was influenced or taken over in some way is still unknown.

* ’’Webcomic/GirlGenius’’
Lucrezia. In the backstory, she was the MadScientistsBeautifulDaughter who was redeemed by love and married TheHero Bill Heterodyne. In the present, she’s The Other, the main villain of the story. Whether her reformation was faked all along, or she turned evil again, or even if she was influenced or taken over in some way is still unknown.

* In ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd'', it's never definitively shown just what caused Dredd's clone-brother, Rico, to [[LawmanGoneBad go bad]]. He himself attributes it to a head injury in the irradiated wastelands, but admits that no one can say for sure.

* In ''WebVideo/MarbleHornets'', one of the main plot points of the second season is that [[spoiler:Alex is evil and serving The Operator.]] However, after events at the end of of the second season and the beginning of the third season, it is ambiguous whether he was [[spoiler:EvilAllAlong, BrainwashedAndCrazy, or had a SplitPersonality in the first season.]] To make matters even more confusing, it is still ambiguous as to whether he is even evil at all but just a victim of a SplitPersonalityTakeover. Most of the characters involved end up with some kind of LaserGuidedAmnesia and[=/=]or SplitPersonality, so interpretations can be completely all over the place.

* ''WesternAnimation/TangledTheSeries'': [[spoiler:Cassandra]]'s FaceHeelTurn is not shown to the audience directly. We had roughly two episodes between the catalyst for their turn to evil and TheReveal. So whether it was something [[spoiler:she]] decided to do from the moment [[spoiler:the Enchanted Girl told her about her origins]] or if it was a spur-of-the-moment decision when they reached the moonstone isn't known to us. The TraitorShot in Episode 20 implies the former, but the way [[spoiler:she]] [[SlowlySlippingIntoEvil Slowly Slips into Evil]] over the course of Season 3 implies the latter.

!!Examples

* ''Manga/AttackOnTitan'': [[spoiler:Eren Yeager]]. The conventional thinking would be that TheReveal that [[spoiler: humanity was in fact not extinct outside the three walls, and that the Titans were sent by an outside force determined to exterminate the people within the walls]] caused him to JumpOffTheSlipperySlope, which ultimately resulted in him becoming an OmnicidalManiac. However, [[spoiler: Eren]] always had a violent and aggressive streak to him, having few friends as a child and engaging in TroublingUnchildlikeBehavior, such as when he [[spoiler: eagerly took on and killed two grown men and showed no signs of angst afterwards, as well as his hatred of and obsession over killing Titans, even before they killed his mother.]] Therefore, there's an argument to be made that nothing about [[spoiler: Eren]] changed; he was always someone who was determined to wipe out anyone or anything that stood in his way, and he didn't stray from this path even when his enemies switched from mindless monsters to [[spoiler: other humans.]]

'''Harley:''' ''[crying]'' Circus... He told me it was the circus.\\

* Discussed in ''WesternAnimation/BatmanUnderTheRedHood''. After his death at the Joker's hands, Jason Todd is brought BackFromTheDead by Ra's al Ghul's Lazarus Pits, later becoming the murderous Red Hood and an enemy of Batman. While both Ra's and Batman believe that Jason CameBackWrong, Jason himself throws it back in Batman's face, suggesting that Bruce just prefers to think that his recent actions are the result of the pit "turning him rabid" because it's easier to digest rather than entertain the thought that the ''real'' Jason is [[EvilAllAlong finally showing himself]]. The film ends without confirming either possibility.

* Literature/TolkiensLegendarium makes it clear that nothing was evil in the beginning, not even the [[BigBad Dark Lords]], so like the rest of creation [[Literature/TheSilmarillion Morgoth]] and [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings Sauron]] were once good [[OurAngelsAreDifferent Ainur]] as faithful to [[GodIsGood Eru Ilúvatar]] as any other. But we never actually see Morgoth before he fell. Even during the Music of the Ainur, when the world was created and he was still called Melkor, he intentionally messed everything up and introduced evil to the creation. Before this, he wandered the Void alone searching for ThePowerOfCreation, and the narrative implies that too was an evil act. From the other direction, it is rather murky whether he went bad all at once or [[SlowlySlippingIntoEvil retained some good in him until later]]. Was it when he [[EntitledBastard declared himself King against the opposition of the other Valar]]? When he [[ScrewThisImOuttaHere threw a hissy fit and fled Arda]] when the others called him on that? When he started seducing Ainur into his service? When he undid the other Valar’s creations? When he destroyed the Two Lamps? When he corrupted living beings into [[WasOnceAMan Orcs]], which the narrative calls his vilest act, is the latest possible point, as before then there was no life other than Ainur who entered the world from outside and could not be permanently harmed by him, but the Incarnates were completely at his mercy and ruined forever. As for Sauron, he was supposedly still good for quite a while, but due to how Tolkien wrote the story, he never appears until the tale “Of Beren and Lúthien”, by which point he had been totally evil for thousands of years and [[MotiveDecay his original motivation for turning evil forgotten]], so we have even less of an idea.

* ''Franchise/MassEffect''

%%* [[spoiler: Cassandra]]'s FaceHeelTurn is not shown to the audience directly. We had roughly two episodes between the catalyst for their turn to evil and TheReveal. So whether it was something [[spoiler: she]] decided to do from the moment [[spoiler: the Enchanted Girl told her about her origins]] or if it was a spur-of-the-moment decision when they reached the moonstone isn't known to us. The TraitorShot in Episode 20 implies the former, but the way [[spoiler: she]] [[SlowlySlippingIntoEvil Slowly Slips into Evil]] over the course of Season 3 implies the latter.

** ''Franchise/{{Batman}}'': ComicBook/TheJoker [[TropeNamer is the poster boy]] for the MultipleChoicePast. The only thing consistent is that he was a low-level crook who got dunked in chemicals to become the Joker. While some origins (most notably ''ComicBook/TheKillingJoke'') have him being forced into crime, others have him as already a sinister criminal beforehand. ''Film/Batman1989'' and ''WesternAnimation/BatmanTheAnimatedSeries'' choose the EvilAllAlong interpretation.
*** Batman even points it out to Harley Quinn in ''Batman: The Animated Series'':

** It's clear that by [[VideoGame/MassEffect3 the third game]] that [[spoiler:The Illusive Man has been [[BrainwashedAndCrazy indoctrinated]]]]. However, since he is a HiddenAgendaVillain, you aren't shown enough of his behavior to know what actions he takes were and were not influence by the reaper indoctrination. It is very possible that he had been indoctrinated through much of the second game, and possibly even since before the first game, but it's equally possible and implied that it was between the second and third game.
** [[BigBad Saren]] in the [[VideoGame/MassEffect first game]]. He was always a brutal KnightTemplar, but it was ambiguous whether he was always a monster or a WellIntentionedExtremist, [[spoiler:when he was indoctrinated]], and how many of his actions before the first game were influenced by [[spoiler:the indoctrination.]]

* It's revealed later in ''VideoGame/TheLegendOfZeldaTheMinishCap'' that the villain Vaati used to be Ezlo's harmless apprentice before stealing the Wishing Cap. Although Ezlo explains that Vaati became interested in humanity's potential for evil and tried to follow their example, he cannot say for sure whether he became that way over time or was always a DeceptiveDisciple. The manga adaptation depicts Vaati breaking down from serving as Ezlo's BeleagueredAssistant.

* The infamous Michael Myers of the ''Franchise/{{Halloween}}'' films is regarded as so terrifying because as a child, he snapped and became a monstrous killer for no discernible reason. Given how little we see of his childhood(as well as the multiple timelines the series went down), several theories have cropped up. He may have been suffering from unchecked mental illness at six years old, which was only worsened by growing up in a sanitarium. Or he may be the result of possession by an ancient Celtic curse. Still others propose he was just an evil psychopath [[EnfantTerrible all the way from birth.]] The newer reboot trilogy strongly hints there is something supernatural driving Myers, but never really elaborates.

* Ozai from ''WesternAnimation/AvatarTheLastAirbender'', in part because we know so little about his personal history. Zuko says that they used to be a happy family, but when did this stop? When he contested Iroh's position for the throne? When he (possibly) agreed to kill his son? When he banished his wife? When he blasted Zuko's face with a fire blast for speaking out of hand? Sometime before all of this?

* ''WesternAnimation/TheOwlHouse'': How Philip Wittebane became the evil Emperor Belos is only told as a folklore ghost story of Gravesfield, but many details are left vague with only Belos' memory portraits in his mindscape giving any clues to what actually happened. The general story goes that Philip and his brother Caleb were orphans who grew up to be witch hunters until they encountered a real witch named Evelyn. Evelyn and Caleb fell in love and went to the Demon Realm together, while Philip chased after them with a dagger, believing his brother to be kidnapped by the witch. It ended with Philip killing Caleb and then swearing to destroy all witches, but the exact details are left to different interpretations. Did Philip intentionally kill Caleb, believing him to be a human traitor, or did he [[AccidentalMurder accidentally kill him trying to kill Evelyn]]? Was Philip truly in the thrall of anti-witch hysteria from the beginning or could he have changed his mindset if he wasn't so afraid to join Caleb to the Demon Realm? The show never gives any direct answers to these questions as by the present day, it hardly matters anymore since [[SunkCostFallacy Belos has invested too much of himself into his evil plans to suddenly change his ways]].

[[folder:Films - Animation]]
* Discussed in ''WesternAnimation/BatmanUnderTheRedHood''. After his death at the Joker's hands, Jason Todd is brought BackFromTheDead by Ra's al Ghul's Lazarus Pits, later becoming the murderous ComicBook/RedHood and an enemy of Batman. While both Ra's and Batman believe that Jason CameBackWrong, Jason himself throws it back in Batman's face, suggesting that Bruce just prefers to think that his recent actions are the result of the pit "turning him rabid" because it's easier to digest rather than entertain the thought that the ''real'' Jason is [[EvilAllAlong finally showing himself]]. The film ends without confirming either possibility.

[[folder:Films - Live Action]]

* ''WesternAnimation/MoralOrel'': It's not clear exactly when Clay turned into the screwed-up person that he is today. Even before his mother died, he was shown to be very ill-behaved. And while his personality in adulthood is very dysfuntional, he did appear to be somewhat well-adjusted before marrying Bloberta.

* It's revealed later in ''VideoGame/TheLegendOfZeldaTheMinishCap'' that the villain Vaati used to be Ezlo's harmless apprentice before stealing the Wishing Cap. Although Ezlo explains that Vaati became interested in humanity's potential for evil and tried to follow their example, he cannot say for sure whther he became that way over time or was always a DeceptiveDisciple. The manga adaptation depicts Vaati breaking down from serving as Ezlo's BeleagueredAssistant.

* ''Webcomic/TheOrderOfTheStick'': The High Priest of Hel tries to [[https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1006.html claim]] that becoming undead didn't [[TranshumanTreachery turn him evil]], only gave him a chance to take revenge for being [[TheExile unfairly cast out by his own people]] and [[BeleagueredAssistant serving under]] a self-important, ungrateful leader. He fails; the sheer malicious spite of it makes Roy realize that [[spoiler:the High Priest isn't his friend Durkon, only a vampire [[PossessingADeadBody animating his corpse]].]]

* ''VideoGame/RedDeadRedemption2'' is the story of Dutch van der Linde's ambiguous start of darkness. While there's a clear point where his behavior changes (the failed robbery where he shot a girl), no one even in universe can agree on whether that was the moment he allowed TheMole to be a ToxicFriendInfluence who manipulated him into directing his paranoia and stress over the gang's losses at the wrong targets, or the moment where he realized he couldn't keep up a MaskOfSanity full time any more. The protagonist, Arthur Morgan, has conflicting feelings on the matter (High Honor Arthur says he doesn't know what to believe, while Low Honor Arthur thinks Dutch was manipulating him), and John's opinion seemingly changes during the TimeSkip to ''VideoGame/RedDeadRedemption'' (it's unclear whether this is the NostalgiaFilter taking hold after 12 years, or a minor continuity error because Dutch's story wasn't fleshed out when the original game was made)- in the second game, he thinks Dutch was EvilAllAlong, while in the first game he thinks Dutch originally had good intentions. And to make things even ''more'' confusing, Dutch suffered a head injury during the failed robbery, so there's no telling what's Dutch slipping of his own accord and what's the concussion talking, as cranial trauma is known to cause behavior changes.

* ''VideoGame/RedDeadRedemption2'': Throughout the game, the true nature of Dutch's SanitySlippage is left open to interpretation and is one of the conflicting opinions of the members of his gang InUniverse. While Charles and Sadie believe he genuinely changed, Arthur and John believe his true nature was slowly surfacing after being BeneathTheMask for so long. Notably, by the time [[VideoGame/RedDeadRedemption the first game]] takes place twelve years later, John believes the former theory (though it's unclear if that's actually a NostalgiaFilter or just comes from them having built the narrative of his downfall backward).

* ''Series/{{Supernatural}}'': [[{{Satan}} Lucifer's]] propensity for trying to invoke SympathyForTheDevil makes when he turned evil unclear. He was corrupted by anger and jealousy by the Mark of Cain, however {{God}} has stated he was already prideful and arrogant beforehand, and never liked humans to begin with, before God gave him the Mark. While it made him worse, it's up for debate if he was ever truly good. [[spoiler:The reveal of [[GodIsEvil God's true nature]] as a ManipulativeBastard who orchestrated all of the events in the series, including Lucifer's fall, for his own amusement, means that God's statement on the matter can't be taken at face value either.]]

* ''Series/{{Supernatural}}'': [[{{Satan}} Lucifer's]] propensity for trying to invoke SympathyForTheDevil makes when he turned evil unclear. He was corrupted by anger and jealousy by the Mark of Cain, however {{God}} has stated he was already prideful and arrogant beforehand, and never liked humans to begin with. While it made him worse, it's up for debate if he was ever truly good. [[spoiler:The reveal of [[GodIsEvil God's true nature]] and the fact that he orchestrated all of the events in the series, including Lucifer's fall, for his own amusement, means that God's statement on the matter can't be taken at face value either.]]