History Headscratchers / TotalWarWarhammerII

*** I was under the impression that the Great Horned Rat couldn't physically enter the world, but he could still [[TheOmniscient see and speak into it at any time and place he feels like]]. He does exactly that to mock a few low ranking lackeys in every campaign surrounding the vortex. And even if he's not paying attention to a particular meeting at that precise moment, [[ParanoiaFuel are you really going to bet your soul on that]]? This is a god who gobbles up his loyal followers like popcorn; just imagine what he'd do to someone he ''hates''.

*** What? No he doesn't. His seat is symbolic and always empty, the Grey Seers just get to decide how he votes which by pure coincidence is always the way they do. The whole point of the sacrifice is that the Horned Rat needs an entire clan's worth of souls plus four race's rituals plus the Great Vortex to cross over to the material world.

** Another point is that The Great Horned Rat himself [[UnusuallyUninterestingSight regularly attends council meeting]]. Sure, treachery is an accepted and even expected part of Skaven society, but their second most iconic trait is ''cowardice''. Betraying the god of all ratmen [[ImStandingRightHere while he's glaring at you from across the table]] would take serious chutzpah.

* Two points; First, a smaller unimportant clan wouldn't make as good a sacrifice. Secondly, '''Skaven'''.
** To clarify, to say that Skaven are treacherous by nature is a bit of an understatement. They're perpetually sabotaging themselves, even during the rare occasion where they "band together" to take on the surface world on a macro ''and'' micro level. It's not a stretch to presume that said leaders sold out their entire faction down to the last clanrat in return for becoming an exception to the mass sacrifice.
** Another point is that the Great Horned Rat himself regularly attends council meeting. Sure, treachery is an accepted and even expected part of Skaven society, but their second most iconic trait is ''cowardice''. Betraying an actual god while he's glaring at you from across the table would take actual guts.

Grey Seer Vulscreek claims that it was "Council's desire all along" that either Clan Mors or Clan Pestilens are sacrificed to enable the Horned Rat to cross over to the material world, and the fact that they send armies to try and seize the cursed engine seems to back that up. But both clans are ''on'' the Council, if nothing else shouldn't their respective leadership have told their subordinates about what was going to happen and how to stop it/redirect it to their advantage out of self-preservation?

* Ethnically speaking there's little to no difference between the Druchii and Alith and his followers, but ultimately their loyalties lie with Ulthuan and thus they can't truly be called Dark Elves. As the term Druchii was originally a disparaging title given to the followers of Malekith and Morathi by the Asur during the Sundering, one would, strictly speaking, need to be a foe of Ulthuan, and loyal to Malekith/Morathi to qualify. So in the end it comes down to loyalty: All Druchii are Naggarothi, but not all Naggarothi are Druchii. As to why some Naggarothi followed Malekith but others didn't, well, there are dissenters in every regime. So at the end of the day, no Alith isn't a Druchii, because he made the choice not to be one, and that final question of choice and loyalty is ultimately what matters. In fact, I imagine Alith himself would be ''extremely'' incensed by the very question.

* Ethnically speaking there's little to no difference between the Druchii and Alith and his followers, but ultimately their loyalties lie with Ulthuan and thus can't truly be called Dark Elves. As the term Druchii was originally a disparaging title given to the followers of Malekith and Morathi by the Asur during the Sundering, one would, strictly speaking, need to be a foe of Ulthuan to qualify. So in the end it comes down to loyalty: All Druchii are Naggarothi, but not all Naggarothi are Druchii. As to why some Naggarothi followed Malekith but others didn't, well, there are dissenters in every regime. So at the end of the day, no Alith isn't a Druchii, because he made the choice not to be one, and that final question of choice and loyalty is ultimately what matters. In fact, I imagine Alith himself would be ''extremely'' incensed by the very question.

* Ethnically speaking there's little to no difference between the Druchii and Alith and his followers, but ultimately their loyalties lie with Ulthuan and thus can't truly be called Dark Elves. As the term Druchii was originally a disparaging title given to the followers of Malekith and Morathi by the Asur during the Sundering, one would, strictly speaking, need to be a foe of Ulthuan to qualify. So ultimately it comes down to loyalty: All Druchii are Naggarothi, but not all Naggarothi are Druchii. As to why some Naggarothi followed Malekith but others didn't, well, there are dissenters in every regime. I imagine Alith himself would be ''extremely'' incensed by the very question.

* Ethnically speaking there's little to no difference between the Druchii and Alith and his followers, but ultimately their loyalties lie with Ulthuan and thus can't truly be called Dark Elves. As the term Druchii was originally a disparaging title given to the followers of Malekith and Morathi by the Asur during the Sundering, one would, strictly speaking, need to be a foe of Ulthuan to qualify. I imagine Alith himself would be *extremely* incensed by the very question.

As clarified above, the Asur and Druchii are separated by more than mere politics and ideology, but were sharply divided both culturally and traditionally long before the sundering. Anar was (and still is) a proud Naggarothi, and endured all the same trials and events (short of joining the rebellion) that shaped the Druchii into what they are today.

As clarified above, the Asur and Druchii are separated by more than mere politics and ideology, but were sharply divided both culturally and traditionally long before the sundering. Anar was (and still is) a proud Naggarothi, and endured all the same trials and events (short of joining the rebellion) that shaped the Druchii into what they are today. In diplomacy with other High Elves, he's keen to distinguish himself from his "southern kin" and is apparently still proud of his heritage. It's stated repeatedly that [[PayEvilUntoEvil his actions against the Dark Elves]] would be considered [[TerrorHero heinous and excessive]] if they were directed against [[AssholeVictim less worthy targets]]. Murdering various faction leaders is even a game mechanic for his faction; murder being the domain of ''Khaela Mensha Khaine'', the chief deity of the Dark Elves. Also worthy of note is that he's the only High Elf throughout the game that sports dark hair; a trait almost universally shared by the Druchii. The more one learns about his character, the more he seems a High Elf in name only...

*** The Druchii's crucial role in repelling the demonic invasion also goes a long way in explaining their outlook towards slavery; the wretched mortals ''wouldn't even exist'' if the we hand't risked life, limb, and [[FateWorseThanDeath soul]] to save the world all those years ago. It is only right that they "thank" us for their lives (''with'' their lives, of course).

*** Perhaps another contributing factor is that many of the Dark Elves personally lived through the aforementioned catastrophes, and the experience is still coloring their outlook and behavior. For a us humans the Mongol invasion of Europe or the sack of Constantinople are ancient history, but a 2000 year old Elf might remember those atrocities firsthand. The cruelty of the Druchii could in part be influenced by some serious demon-induced PTSD.

** The modern day Druchii are a product of all these things, exacerbated further through thousands of years of exile, hate, bitterness and war. It's also important to note that for the most part the Dark Elves consider themselves fully justified in their treatment of others. After all, in their world view, everyone is either a traitor, in the case of the Asur, or lowly vermin fit only to be slaves, in the case of literally everyone else. They have a master race ideology that would but the Nazi's to shame. And, as we know from our own history, people can justify a lot of horrible things simply by not seeing other people as well, people. Of course there is also an intimidation factor involved in all the torture and depravity; slaves are less likely to rebel if they're terrified into submission.

** You see when Aenarion learned of the death of his wife (and the apparent death of his children) he basically lost it, and in his desire for vengeance he drew the Sword of Khaine, which he believed would allow him to achieve said vengeance. And it did, to an extent at least. The sword granted him the power to drive the Daemons back; but it also corrupted him, filling him with hate and rage. Eventually Aenarion founded the realm of Nagarythe in northern Ulthuan and to his realm flocked those elves who had suffered the depredations of Chaos most intensely. Those who had suffered the loss of home or family, and had nothing left to lose; or to live for, save revenge. Nagarythe became a harsh and brutal realm, where the populace took the brunt of the fighting against further Chaos incursions. Naturally the Naggarothi, knowing their lives were more than likely destined to come to a violent end, began to compensate by indulging in ever more extreme and hedonistic pastimes. Beseeching forbidden gods and such things for example. Basically, they knew they likely didn't have long to live, so they overindulged in life's pleasures when they still could. It's a literal case of "Drink well and eat hearty, for tonight we dine in hell!" (as painful a reference as that is to make, I'm not fond of that movie, it fits here). Of course it didn't help that Aenarion had married the shadowy Morathi at this point, an individual who fervently encouraged the darker passions of her husband and his followers. Not to mention the curse of Khaine which had consumed Aenarion had a certain effect on his people as well.

** The modern day Druchii are a product of all these things, exacerbated further through thousands of years of exile, hate, bitterness and war. It's also important to note that for the most part the Dark Elves consider themselves fully justified in their treatment of others. After all, in their world view, everyone is either a traitor, in the case of the Asur, or lowly vermin fit only to be slaves, in the case of literally everyone else. They have a master race ideology that would but the Nazi's to shame. And, as we know from our own history, people can justify a lot of horrible things simply by not seeing other people as well, people. Of course there is also an intimidation factor involved in all the torture; slaves are less likely to rebel if they're terrified into submission.

** There are actually many reasons why the Dark Elves are like they are, they didn't simply decide to be evil one day for the sake of being evil. It all started, like most things in Warhammer, with the forces of Chaos. More specifically it began with the death of the Everqueen Astarielle, first wife of Aenarion, at the hands of Chaos forces.
You see when Aenarion learned of the death of his wife (and the apparent death of his children) he basically lost it, and in his desire for vengeance he drew the Sword of Khaine, which he believed would allow him to achieve said vengeance. And it did, to an extent at least. The sword granted him the power to drive the Daemons back; but it also corrupted him, filling him with hate and rage. Eventually Aenarion founded the realm of Nagarythe in northern Ulthuan and to his realm flocked those elves who had suffered the depredations of Chaos most intensely. Those who had suffered the loss of home or family, and had nothing left to lose; or to live for, save revenge. Nagarythe became a harsh and brutal realm, where the populace took the brunt of the fighting against further Chaos incursions. Naturally the Naggarothi, knowing their lives were more than likely destined to come to a violent end, began to compensate by indulging in ever more extreme and hedonistic pastimes. Beseeching forbidden gods and such things for example. Basically, they knew they likely didn't have long to live, so they overindulged in life's pleasures when they still could. It's a literal case of "Drink well and eat hearty, for tonight we dine in hell!" (as painful a reference as that is to make, I'm not fond of that movie, it fits here). Of course it didn't help that Aenarion had married the shadowy Morathi at this point, an individual who fervently encouraged the darker passions of her husband and his followers. Not to mention the curse of Khaine which had consumed Aenarion had a certain effect on his people as well.

Once the war had ended and the daemons were banished the Naggarothi didn't quite know how to handle a time of peace; they were warriors first and foremost, and the war with Chaos had given their lives meaning. Not to mention that certain Naggarothi practices, like the open worship of the Cytharai for instance, were not exactly acceptable in the rest of Ulthuan. And here we come to the crux of the matter, there was a major divide between Nagarthye and the other Elvish realms. The Naggarothi harbored no small degree of resentment toward their kin from the other kingdoms, after all it was Nagarythe who stood between Chaos and Ulthuan proper, it was Nagarythe who suffered the most, it was Nagarythe who fought the hardest. In their minds the Naggarothi were the greatest of the elves, their strength forged in the fires of war, and all the other kingdoms should kneel before them in thanks. Of course, that isn't what happened.

When the Tiranocii prince Bel Shanaar was chosen as Phoenix King over Malekith, the elves of Nagarythe saw it as an insult to the legacy of Aenarion and to their kingdom as a whole, further increasing the divide between them and the rest of Ulthuan. Of course none were more incensed than Morathi and, privately at least (initially) Malekith. In the years that followed many Naggarothi accompanied Malekith on his campaigns through the old world, both because war was the state of being in which they were most at home and because, like Malekith himself, they despised living under the rule of Bel Shanaar; whom they considered a weakling and a pretender. Meanwhile, back on Ulthuan, Morathi was making it her goal to undermine the authority of the Phoenix King and goad the Naggarothi down ever darker paths. Twisting them even further. When full blown war eventually broke out, it really shouldn't have surprised anyone.

The modern day Druchii are a product of all these things, exacerbated further through thousands of years of exile, hate, bitterness and war. It's also important to note that for the most part the Dark Elves consider themselves fully justified in their treatment of others. After all, in their world view, everyone is either a traitor, in the case of the Asur, or lowly vermin fit only to be slaves, in the case of literally everyone else. They have a master race ideology that would but the Nazi's to shame. And, as we know from our own history, people can justify a lot of horrible things simply by not seeing other people as well, people. Of course there is also an intimidation factor involved in all the torture; slaves are less likely to rebel if they're terrified into submission.

* There are actually many reasons why the Dark Elves are like they are, they didn't simply decide to be evil one day for the sake of being evil. It all started, like most things in Warhammer, with the forces of Chaos. More specifically it began with the death of the Everqueen Astarielle, first wife of Aenarion, at the hands of Chaos forces.

* You see when Aenarion learned of the death of his wife (and the apparent death of his children) he basically lost it, and in his desire for vengeance he drew the Sword of Khaine, which he believed would allow him to achieve said vengeance. And it did, to an extent at least. The sword granted him the power to drive the Daemons back; but it also corrupted him, filling him with hate and rage. Eventually Aenarion founded the realm of Nagarythe in northern Ulthuan and to his realm flocked those elves who had suffered the depredations of Chaos most intensely. Those who had suffered the loss of home or family, and had nothing left to lose; or to live for, save revenge. Nagarythe became a harsh and brutal realm, where the populace took the brunt of the fighting against further Chaos incursions. Naturally the Naggarothi, knowing their lives were more than likely destined to come to a violent end, began to compensate by indulging in ever more extreme and hedonistic pastimes. Beseeching forbidden gods and such things for example. Basically, they knew they likely didn't have long to live, so they overindulged in life's pleasures when they still could. It's a literal case of "Drink well and eat hearty, for tonight we dine in hell!" (as painful a reference as that is to make, I'm not fond of that movie, it fits here). Of course it didn't help that Aenarion had married the shadowy Morathi at this point, an individual who fervently encouraged the darker passions of her husband and his followers. Not to mention the curse of Khaine which had consumed Aenarion had a certain effect on his people as well.

* Once the war had ended and the daemons were banished the Naggarothi didn't quite know how to handle a time of peace; they were warriors first and foremost, and the war with Chaos had given their lives meaning. Not to mention that certain Naggarothi practices, like the open worship of the Cytharai for instance, were not exactly acceptable in the rest of Ulthuan. And here we come to the crux of the matter, there was a major divide between Nagarthye and the other Elvish realms. The Naggarothi harbored no small degree of resentment toward their kin from the other kingdoms, after all it was Nagarythe who stood between Chaos and Ulthuan proper, it was Nagarythe who suffered the most, it was Nagarythe who fought the hardest. In their minds the Naggarothi were the greatest of the elves, their strength forged in the fires of war, and all the other kingdoms should kneel before them in thanks. Of course, that isn't what happened.

* When the Tiranocii prince Bel Shanaar was chosen as Phoenix King over Malekith, the elves of Nagarythe saw it as an insult to the legacy of Aenarion and to their kingdom as a whole, further increasing the divide between them and the rest of Ulthuan. Of course none were more incensed than Morathi and, privately at least (initially) Malekith. In the years that followed many Naggarothi accompanied Malekith on his campaigns through the old world, both because war was the state of being in which they were most at home and because, like Malekith himself, they despised living under the rule of Bel Shanaar; whom they considered a weakling and a pretender. Meanwhile, back on Ulthuan, Morathi was making it her goal to undermine the authority of the Phoenix King and goad the Naggarothi down ever darker paths. Twisting them even further. When full blown war eventually broke out, it really shouldn't have surprised anyone.

* The modern day Druchii are a product of all these things, exacerbated further through thousands of years of exile, hate, bitterness and war. It's also important to note that for the most part the Dark Elves consider themselves fully justified in their treatment of others. After all, in their world view, everyone is either a traitor, in the case of the Asur, or lowly vermin fit only to be slaves, in the case of literally everyone else. They have a master race ideology that would but the Nazi's to shame. And, as we know from our own history, people can justify a lot of horrible things simply by not seeing other people as well, people. Of course there is also an intimidation factor involved in all the torture; slaves are less likely to rebel if they're terrified into submission.

You see when Aenarion learned of the death of his wife (and the apparent death of his children) he basically lost it, and in his desire for vengeance he drew the Sword of Khaine, which he believed would allow him to achieve said vengeance. And it did, to an extent at least. The sword granted him the power to drive the Daemons back; but it also corrupted him, filling him with hate and rage. Eventually Aenarion founded the realm of Nagarythe in northern Ulthuan and to his realm flocked those elves who had suffered the depredations of Chaos most intensely. Those who had suffered the loss of home or family, and had nothing left to lose; or to live for, save revenge. Nagarythe became a harsh and brutal realm, where the populace took the brunt of the fighting against further Chaos incursions. Naturally the Naggarothi, knowing their lives were more than likely destined to come to a violent end, began to compensate by indulging in ever more extreme and hedonistic pastimes. Beseeching forbidden gods and such things for example. Basically, they knew they likely didn't have long to live, so they overindulged in life's pleasures when they still could. It's a literal case of "Drink well and eat hearty, for tonight we dine in hell!" (as painful a reference as that is to make, I'm not fond of that movie, it fits here). Of course it didn't help that Aenarion had married the shadowy Morathi at this point, an individual who fervently encouraged the darker passions of her husband and his followers. Not to mention the curse of Khaine which had consumed Aenarion had a certain effect on his people as well.

Once the war had ended and the daemons were banished the Naggarothi didn't quite know how to handle a time of peace; they were warriors first and foremost, and the war with Chaos had given their lives meaning. Not to mention that certain Naggarothi practices, like the open worship of the Cytharai for instance, were not exactly acceptable in the rest of Ulthuan. And here we come to the crux of the matter, there was a major divide between Nagarthye and the other Elvish realms. The Naggarothi harbored no small degree of resentment toward their kin from the other kingdoms, after all it was Nagarythe who stood between Chaos and Ulthuan proper, it was Nagarythe who suffered the most, it was Nagarythe who fought the hardest. In their minds the Naggarothi were the greatest of the elves, their strength forged in the fires of war, and all the other kingdoms should kneel before them in thanks. Of course, that isn't what happened.

When the Tiranocii prince Bel Shanaar was chosen as Phoenix King over Malekith, the elves of Nagarythe saw it as an insult to the legacy of Aenarion and to their kingdom as a whole, further increasing the divide between them and the rest of Ulthuan. Of course none were more incensed than Morathi and, privately at least (initially) Malekith. In the years that followed many Naggarothi accompanied Malekith on his campaigns through the old world, both because war was the state of being in which they were most at home and because, like Malekith himself, they despised living under the rule of Bel Shanaar; whom they considered a weakling and a pretender. Meanwhile, back on Ulthuan, Morathi was making it her goal to undermine the authority of the Phoenix King and goad the Naggarothi down ever darker paths. Twisting them even further. When full blown war eventually broke out, it really shouldn't have surprised anyone.

The modern day Druchii are a product of all these things, exacerbated further through thousands of years of exile, hate, bitterness and war. It's also important to note that for the most part the Dark Elves consider themselves fully justified in their treatment of others. After all, in their world view, everyone is either a traitor, in the case of the Asur, or lowly vermin fit only to be slaves, in the case of literally everyone else. They have a master race ideology that would but the Nazi's to shame. And, as we know from our own history, people can justify a lot of horrible things simply by not seeing other people as well, people. Of course there is also an intimidation factor involved in all the torture; slaves are less likely to rebel if they're terrified into submission.

Or is there an evil Elven deity (*chough*khaelamenshakhaine*cough*) who's egging them on?

I know that the AlwaysChaoticEvil trope is a time honored tradition in fantastic settings everywhere, but ''Warhammer'' is usually good about vindicating this [[note]]The undead are deeply affected by their transformation, the Norscans are indoctrinated into a harsh culture or die, The Beastmen and Skaven are tainted to the core by chaos, and the Greenskins are a sapient fungi that's mentally incapable of pacifism[[/note]]. Yet the Dark Elves don't seem to have an excuse; their Asur brethren prove beyond a doubt that elves in general are under no obligation to act like sadistic pricks. Are they under one of the ancient, malevolent curses endemic to this setting? Is there some quirk in of Elven soul that compels balance between light and dark[[note]] https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Yenlui[[/note]]?
Or is there an evil Elven god (*chough*khaelamenshakhaine*cough*) who's egging them on?

I know that the AlwaysChaoticEvil trope is a time honored tradition in fantastic settings everywhere, but ''Warhammer'' is usually good about vindicating this [[note]]The undead are deeply affected by their transformation, the Norscans are indoctrinated into a harsh culture or die, The Beastmen and Skaven are tainted to the core by chaos, and the Greenskins are a sapient fungi that's mentally incapable of pacifism[[/note]]. Yet the Dark Elves don't seem to have an excuse; their Asur brethren prove beyond a doubt that elves in general are under no obligation to act like sadistic pricks. Are they under one of the ancient, malevolent curses endemic to this setting? Is there some quirk in the Elven soul that compels those loyal to a certain faction to behave a specific way? Or is there an evil Elven god (*chough*khaelamenshakhaine*cough*) who's baiting them on?

[[WMG: Slaanesh’s competition for Elven Souls.]]

* Well they were presumably pirates before they became vampires, so one would assume their desire for plunder would carry over into undeath. As for why they need money to raise the dead, it's probably just GameplayAndStorySegregation.

* regarding the Vampire Coast; I thought the zombies commanded by vampires were mindless puppets, and that the vampires themselves were motivated solely out of pride, ambition, power, or ideology. Why would an undead monstrosity be so obsessed with loot, treasure, and material gain?

* I thought the zombies commanded by vampires were mindless puppets, and that the vampires themselves were motivated solely out of pride, ambition, power, or ideology. Why would an undead monstrosity be so obsessed with loot, treasure, and material gain?

[[WMG: A Vampier's lust for gold.]]
* It strikes me strange that a privateer would maintain his want of plunder after being freed of all earthly desire. In what manner do the sleepless crews spend the ill-gotten gains they acquire? The flavor of rum and the charms of women mean little in the eyes of a dead man.

* That'd be nice. CA have been so good about using lore so far.