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** If neither of those possibilities are sufficient, then alternatively '''a)''' they ''are'' trying to spill the beans but the other lords are running interference, or '''b)''' they're already dead (it's rare to find a Skaven that isn't an assassin to some degree).

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** If neither of those possibilities are sufficient, satisfy you, then alternatively '''a)''' they ''are'' trying to spill the beans but the other lords are running interference, or '''b)''' they're already dead (it's rare to find a Skaven that isn't an assassin to some degree).degree). Yes, they wouldn't have gained or held their position for very long if they were easy targets, but the bulk of their forces are abroad, every other clan would be lining up to take shots at, and only one attempt needs to be successful.


*** Skaven will fight viciously when they have no choice, if the ritual goes off as the Council planned both Gnawdwell and Nurglitch are getting their souls ripped out and devoured with the rest of their clans. They have nothing to lose.

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*** Skaven will fight viciously when they have no choice, if the ritual goes off as the Council planned both Gnawdwell and Nurglitch are getting their souls ripped out and devoured with the rest of their clans. They have nothing to lose.lose.
** If neither of those possibilities are sufficient, then alternatively '''a)''' they ''are'' trying to spill the beans but the other lords are running interference, or '''b)''' they're already dead (it's rare to find a Skaven that isn't an assassin to some degree).


*** The Horned Rat demonstrably doesn't care who the sacrifice is, just that one occurs. It's positively un-Skaveny of them not to try and spill a rival clan's blood on the bell instead of themselves.



*** I was under the impression that the Great Horned Rat couldn't physically enter the world, but he could still [[TheOmniscient see and speak into it at any time and place he feels like]]. He does exactly that to mock a few low ranking lackeys in every campaign surrounding the vortex. And even if he's not paying attention to a particular meeting at that precise moment, [[ParanoiaFuel are you really going to bet your soul on that]]? This is a god who gobbles up his loyal followers like popcorn; just imagine what he'd do to someone he ''hates''.

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*** I was under the impression that the Great Horned Rat couldn't physically enter the world, but he could still [[TheOmniscient see and speak into it at any time and place he feels like]]. He does exactly that to mock a few low ranking lackeys in every campaign surrounding the vortex. And even if he's not paying attention to a particular meeting at that precise moment, [[ParanoiaFuel are you really going to bet your soul on that]]? This is a god who gobbles up his loyal followers like popcorn; just imagine what he'd do to someone he ''hates''.''hates''.
*** Skaven will fight viciously when they have no choice, if the ritual goes off as the Council planned both Gnawdwell and Nurglitch are getting their souls ripped out and devoured with the rest of their clans. They have nothing to lose.


*** They also have eleven other council members and their very own god working against them. Whatever their many, many failings, the Shaven are never too proud [[KnowWhenToFoldThem to know when they've been beaten]]. As for the leaders themselves, they clawed their way up to the top once before and they could do so again. Heck, [[EnsembleDarkhorse Thanquol]] did exactly that [[JokerImmunity several dozen times]] throughout the lore due to [[ButtMonkey Gotrek and Felix constantly messing up his]] plans and earning him [[YouHaveFailedMe the council's unanimous hatred]].
---> "No matter how low you fell or how hopeless it seemed, there was always one cache left to plunder, one ally left to flatter, one final desperate scheme to throw yourself into." ''Thanquol and Boneripper: Grey Seer'' (Novel) by C.L Werner



*** What? No he doesn't. His seat is symbolic and always empty, the Grey Seers just get to decide how he votes which by pure coincidence is always the way they do. The whole point of the sacrifice is that the Horned Rat needs an entire clan's worth of souls plus four race's rituals plus the Great Vortex to cross over to the material world.

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*** What? No he doesn't. His seat is symbolic and always empty, the Grey Seers just get to decide how he votes which by pure coincidence is always the way they do. The whole point of the sacrifice is that the Horned Rat needs an entire clan's worth of souls plus four race's rituals plus the Great Vortex to cross over to the material world.world.
*** I was under the impression that the Great Horned Rat couldn't physically enter the world, but he could still [[TheOmniscient see and speak into it at any time and place he feels like]]. He does exactly that to mock a few low ranking lackeys in every campaign surrounding the vortex. And even if he's not paying attention to a particular meeting at that precise moment, [[ParanoiaFuel are you really going to bet your soul on that]]? This is a god who gobbles up his loyal followers like popcorn; just imagine what he'd do to someone he ''hates''.


** Another point is that The Great Horned Rat himself [[UnusuallyUninterestingSight regularly attends council meeting]]. Sure, treachery is an accepted and even expected part of Skaven society, but their second most iconic trait is ''cowardice''. Betraying the god of all ratmen [[ImStandingRightHere while he's glaring at you from across the table]] would take serious chutzpah.

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*** Without a clan, Warlord Gnawdwell and Lord Nurglitch (heads of Mors and Pestilens respectively and members of the Council) would not last a week in their positions of power. Skaven are certainly short-sighted but one doesn't sit in their highest-ranking spot without some foresight and political skill. They have no reason not to spill the beans to their subordinates and tell them how to sacrifice some other clan instead.
** Another point is that The Great Horned Rat himself [[UnusuallyUninterestingSight regularly attends council meeting]]. Sure, treachery is an accepted and even expected part of Skaven society, but their second most iconic trait is ''cowardice''. Betraying the god of all ratmen [[ImStandingRightHere while he's glaring at you from across the table]] would take serious chutzpah.chutzpah.
*** What? No he doesn't. His seat is symbolic and always empty, the Grey Seers just get to decide how he votes which by pure coincidence is always the way they do. The whole point of the sacrifice is that the Horned Rat needs an entire clan's worth of souls plus four race's rituals plus the Great Vortex to cross over to the material world.


* Two points; First, a smaller unimportant clan wouldn't make as good a sacrifice. Secondly, '''Skaven'''.
** To clarify, to say that Skaven are treacherous by nature is a bit of an understatement. They're perpetually sabotaging themselves, even during the rare occasion where they "band together" to take on the surface world on a macro ''and'' micro level. It's not a stretch to presume that said leaders sold out their entire faction down to the last clanrat in return for becoming an exception to the mass sacrifice.
** Another point is that the Great Horned Rat himself regularly attends council meeting. Sure, treachery is an accepted and even expected part of Skaven society, but their second most iconic trait is ''cowardice''. Betraying an actual god while he's glaring at you from across the table would take actual guts.

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* Two points; First, a smaller unimportant and less important clan wouldn't make as good a sacrifice. Secondly, '''Skaven'''.
** To clarify, to say saying that Skaven are treacherous by nature [[ChronicBackstabbingDisorder is a bit of an understatement. understatement]]. They're perpetually sabotaging themselves, themselves on a macro ''and'' micro level, even during on the rare occasion where they [[WeAREStrugglingtogether "band together" to take on the surface world on a macro ''and'' micro level.world]]. It's not a stretch to presume that said leaders sold out their entire faction down to the last clanrat in return for becoming an exception to the mass sacrifice.
** Another point is that the The Great Horned Rat himself [[UnusuallyUninterestingSight regularly attends council meeting.meeting]]. Sure, treachery is an accepted and even expected part of Skaven society, but their second most iconic trait is ''cowardice''. Betraying an actual the god of all ratmen [[ImStandingRightHere while he's glaring at you from across the table table]] would take actual guts.serious chutzpah.


Grey Seer Vulscreek claims that it was "Council's desire all along" that either Clan Mors or Clan Pestilens are sacrificed to enable the Horned Rat to cross over to the material world, and the fact that they send armies to try and seize the cursed engine seems to back that up. But both clans are ''on'' the Council, if nothing else shouldn't their respective leadership have told their subordinates about what was going to happen and how to stop it/redirect it to their advantage out of self-preservation?

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Grey Seer Vulscreek claims that it was "Council's desire all along" that either Clan Mors or Clan Pestilens are sacrificed to enable the Horned Rat to cross over to the material world, and the fact that they send armies to try and seize the cursed engine seems to back that up. But both clans are ''on'' the Council, if nothing else shouldn't their respective leadership have told their subordinates about what was going to happen and how to stop it/redirect it to their advantage out of self-preservation?self-preservation?
* Two points; First, a smaller unimportant clan wouldn't make as good a sacrifice. Secondly, '''Skaven'''.
** To clarify, to say that Skaven are treacherous by nature is a bit of an understatement. They're perpetually sabotaging themselves, even during the rare occasion where they "band together" to take on the surface world on a macro ''and'' micro level. It's not a stretch to presume that said leaders sold out their entire faction down to the last clanrat in return for becoming an exception to the mass sacrifice.
** Another point is that the Great Horned Rat himself regularly attends council meeting. Sure, treachery is an accepted and even expected part of Skaven society, but their second most iconic trait is ''cowardice''. Betraying an actual god while he's glaring at you from across the table would take actual guts.


* Ethnically speaking there's little to no difference between the Druchii and Alith and his followers, but ultimately their loyalties lie with Ulthuan and thus they can't truly be called Dark Elves. As the term Druchii was originally a disparaging title given to the followers of Malekith and Morathi by the Asur during the Sundering, one would, strictly speaking, need to be a foe of Ulthuan, and loyal to Malekith/Morathi to qualify. So in the end it comes down to loyalty: All Druchii are Naggarothi, but not all Naggarothi are Druchii. As to why some Naggarothi followed Malekith but others didn't, well, there are dissenters in every regime. So at the end of the day, no Alith isn't a Druchii, because he made the choice not to be one, and that final question of choice and loyalty is ultimately what matters. In fact, I imagine Alith himself would be ''extremely'' incensed by the very question.

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* Ethnically speaking there's little to no difference between the Druchii and Alith and his followers, but ultimately their loyalties lie with Ulthuan and thus they can't truly be called Dark Elves. As the term Druchii was originally a disparaging title given to the followers of Malekith and Morathi by the Asur during the Sundering, one would, strictly speaking, need to be a foe of Ulthuan, and loyal to Malekith/Morathi to qualify. So in the end it comes down to loyalty: All Druchii are Naggarothi, but not all Naggarothi are Druchii. As to why some Naggarothi followed Malekith but others didn't, well, there are dissenters in every regime. So at the end of the day, no Alith isn't a Druchii, because he made the choice not to be one, and that final question of choice and loyalty is ultimately what matters. In fact, I imagine Alith himself would be ''extremely'' incensed by the very question.question.

[[WMG: Why would the Council of Thirteen sacrifice Clan Mors/Pestilens?]]
Grey Seer Vulscreek claims that it was "Council's desire all along" that either Clan Mors or Clan Pestilens are sacrificed to enable the Horned Rat to cross over to the material world, and the fact that they send armies to try and seize the cursed engine seems to back that up. But both clans are ''on'' the Council, if nothing else shouldn't their respective leadership have told their subordinates about what was going to happen and how to stop it/redirect it to their advantage out of self-preservation?


* Ethnically speaking there's little to no difference between the Druchii and Alith and his followers, but ultimately their loyalties lie with Ulthuan and thus can't truly be called Dark Elves. As the term Druchii was originally a disparaging title given to the followers of Malekith and Morathi by the Asur during the Sundering, one would, strictly speaking, need to be a foe of Ulthuan to qualify. So in the end it comes down to loyalty: All Druchii are Naggarothi, but not all Naggarothi are Druchii. As to why some Naggarothi followed Malekith but others didn't, well, there are dissenters in every regime. So at the end of the day, no Alith isn't a Druchii, because he made the choice not to be one, and that final question of choice and loyalty is ultimately what matters. In fact, I imagine Alith himself would be ''extremely'' incensed by the very question.

to:

* Ethnically speaking there's little to no difference between the Druchii and Alith and his followers, but ultimately their loyalties lie with Ulthuan and thus they can't truly be called Dark Elves. As the term Druchii was originally a disparaging title given to the followers of Malekith and Morathi by the Asur during the Sundering, one would, strictly speaking, need to be a foe of Ulthuan Ulthuan, and loyal to Malekith/Morathi to qualify. So in the end it comes down to loyalty: All Druchii are Naggarothi, but not all Naggarothi are Druchii. As to why some Naggarothi followed Malekith but others didn't, well, there are dissenters in every regime. So at the end of the day, no Alith isn't a Druchii, because he made the choice not to be one, and that final question of choice and loyalty is ultimately what matters. In fact, I imagine Alith himself would be ''extremely'' incensed by the very question.


* Ethnically speaking there's little to no difference between the Druchii and Alith and his followers, but ultimately their loyalties lie with Ulthuan and thus can't truly be called Dark Elves. As the term Druchii was originally a disparaging title given to the followers of Malekith and Morathi by the Asur during the Sundering, one would, strictly speaking, need to be a foe of Ulthuan to qualify. So ultimately it comes down to loyalty: All Druchii are Naggarothi, but not all Naggarothi are Druchii. As to why some Naggarothi followed Malekith but others didn't, well, there are dissenters in every regime. I imagine Alith himself would be ''extremely'' incensed by the very question.

to:

* Ethnically speaking there's little to no difference between the Druchii and Alith and his followers, but ultimately their loyalties lie with Ulthuan and thus can't truly be called Dark Elves. As the term Druchii was originally a disparaging title given to the followers of Malekith and Morathi by the Asur during the Sundering, one would, strictly speaking, need to be a foe of Ulthuan to qualify. So ultimately in the end it comes down to loyalty: All Druchii are Naggarothi, but not all Naggarothi are Druchii. As to why some Naggarothi followed Malekith but others didn't, well, there are dissenters in every regime. So at the end of the day, no Alith isn't a Druchii, because he made the choice not to be one, and that final question of choice and loyalty is ultimately what matters. In fact, I imagine Alith himself would be ''extremely'' incensed by the very question.


* Ethnically speaking there's little to no difference between the Druchii and Alith and his followers, but ultimately their loyalties lie with Ulthuan and thus can't truly be called Dark Elves. As the term Druchii was originally a disparaging title given to the followers of Malekith and Morathi by the Asur during the Sundering, one would, strictly speaking, need to be a foe of Ulthuan to qualify. I imagine Alith himself would be *extremely* incensed by the very question.

to:

* Ethnically speaking there's little to no difference between the Druchii and Alith and his followers, but ultimately their loyalties lie with Ulthuan and thus can't truly be called Dark Elves. As the term Druchii was originally a disparaging title given to the followers of Malekith and Morathi by the Asur during the Sundering, one would, strictly speaking, need to be a foe of Ulthuan to qualify. So ultimately it comes down to loyalty: All Druchii are Naggarothi, but not all Naggarothi are Druchii. As to why some Naggarothi followed Malekith but others didn't, well, there are dissenters in every regime. I imagine Alith himself would be *extremely* ''extremely'' incensed by the very question.


As clarified above, the Asur and Druchii are separated by more than mere politics and ideology, but were sharply divided both culturally and traditionally long before the sundering. Anar was (and still is) a proud Naggarothi, and endured all the same trials and events (short of joining the rebellion) that shaped the Druchii into what they are today.

to:

As clarified above, the Asur and Druchii are separated by more than mere politics and ideology, but were sharply divided both culturally and traditionally long before the sundering. Anar was (and still is) a proud Naggarothi, and endured all the same trials and events (short of joining the rebellion) that shaped the Druchii into what they are today.today.
* Ethnically speaking there's little to no difference between the Druchii and Alith and his followers, but ultimately their loyalties lie with Ulthuan and thus can't truly be called Dark Elves. As the term Druchii was originally a disparaging title given to the followers of Malekith and Morathi by the Asur during the Sundering, one would, strictly speaking, need to be a foe of Ulthuan to qualify. I imagine Alith himself would be *extremely* incensed by the very question.


As clarified above, the Asur and Druchii are separated by more than mere politics and ideology, but were sharply divided both culturally and traditionally long before the sundering. Anar was (and still is) a proud Naggarothi, and endured all the same trials and events (short of joining the rebellion) that shaped the Druchii into what they are today. In diplomacy with other High Elves, he's keen to distinguish himself from his "southern kin" and is apparently still proud of his heritage. It's stated repeatedly that [[PayEvilUntoEvil his actions against the Dark Elves]] would be considered [[TerrorHero heinous and excessive]] if they were directed against [[AssholeVictim less worthy targets]]. Murdering various faction leaders is even a game mechanic for his faction; murder being the domain of ''Khaela Mensha Khaine'', the chief deity of the Dark Elves. Also worthy of note is that he's the only High Elf throughout the game that sports dark hair; a trait almost universally shared by the Druchii. The more one learns about his character, the more he seems a High Elf in name only...

to:

As clarified above, the Asur and Druchii are separated by more than mere politics and ideology, but were sharply divided both culturally and traditionally long before the sundering. Anar was (and still is) a proud Naggarothi, and endured all the same trials and events (short of joining the rebellion) that shaped the Druchii into what they are today. In diplomacy with other High Elves, he's keen to distinguish himself from his "southern kin" and is apparently still proud of his heritage. It's stated repeatedly that [[PayEvilUntoEvil his actions against the Dark Elves]] would be considered [[TerrorHero heinous and excessive]] if they were directed against [[AssholeVictim less worthy targets]]. Murdering various faction leaders is even a game mechanic for his faction; murder being the domain of ''Khaela Mensha Khaine'', the chief deity of the Dark Elves. Also worthy of note is that he's the only High Elf throughout the game that sports dark hair; a trait almost universally shared by the Druchii. The more one learns about his character, the more he seems a High Elf in name only...


*** The Druchii's crucial role in repelling the demonic invasion also goes a long way in explaining their outlook towards slavery; the wretched mortals ''wouldn't even exist'' if the we hand't risked life, limb, and [[FateWorseThanDeath soul]] to save the world all those years ago. It is only right that they "thank" us for their lives (''with'' their lives, of course).

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*** The Druchii's crucial role in repelling the demonic invasion also goes a long way in explaining their outlook towards slavery; the wretched mortals ''wouldn't even exist'' if the we hand't risked life, limb, and [[FateWorseThanDeath soul]] to save the world all those years ago. It is only right that they "thank" us for their lives (''with'' their lives, of course).course).

[[WMG: Is Alith Anar a Dark Elf?]]
As clarified above, the Asur and Druchii are separated by more than mere politics and ideology, but were sharply divided both culturally and traditionally long before the sundering. Anar was (and still is) a proud Naggarothi, and endured all the same trials and events (short of joining the rebellion) that shaped the Druchii into what they are today. In diplomacy with other High Elves, he's keen to distinguish himself from his "southern kin" and is apparently still proud of his heritage. It's stated repeatedly that [[PayEvilUntoEvil his actions against the Dark Elves]] would be considered [[TerrorHero heinous and excessive]] if they were directed against [[AssholeVictim less worthy targets]]. Murdering various faction leaders is even a game mechanic for his faction; murder being the domain of ''Khaela Mensha Khaine'', the chief deity of the Dark Elves. Also worthy of note is that he's the only High Elf throughout the game that sports dark hair; a trait almost universally shared by the Druchii. The more one learns about his character, the more he seems a High Elf in name only...


*** Perhaps another contributing factor is that many of the Dark Elves personally lived through the aforementioned catastrophes, and the experience is still coloring their outlook and behavior. For a us humans the Mongol invasion of Europe or the sack of Constantinople are ancient history, but a 2000 year old Elf might remember those atrocities firsthand. The cruelty of the Druchii could in part be influenced by some serious demon-induced PTSD.

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*** Perhaps another contributing factor is that many most of the Dark Elves personally lived through prominent Druchii (and maybe the majority of the population) ''personally experienced'' the brunt of the aforementioned catastrophes, and the experience is still coloring their outlook and behavior. catastrophes. [[note]] For a us humans short-lived humans, the Mongol invasion of Europe or the sack of Constantinople Bubonic Plague are ancient history, but history. If we had a 2000 year old Elf might remember lifespan it would be a different story.[[/note]] Several millennia of seeing the worst the world has to offer (especially one as screwed-up as ''Warhammer's'') tends to foster a jaded outlook and thorough disillusionment; another deconstruction of TheAgeless trope.

*** The Druchii's crucial role in repelling the demonic invasion also goes a long way in explaining their outlook towards slavery; the wretched mortals ''wouldn't even exist'' if the we hand't risked life, limb, and [[FateWorseThanDeath soul]] to save the world all
those atrocities firsthand. The cruelty years ago. It is only right that they "thank" us for their lives (''with'' their lives, of the Druchii could in part be influenced by some serious demon-induced PTSD.course).

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