History Headscratchers / TotalWarWarhammer

* The engineer(s) aiming the warmachine takes the Slayer Oath, due to having killed another Dawi with shoddy work. As this is an effective death sentence (and dwarfs trust each other to a degree they don't do other species, hence no chance of the offender [[KarmaHoudini trying to wiggle out of it]]) this essentially settles the grudge.

*** So there ''is'' [[{{HopeSpot}} a God of Hope in the Warhammer setting]]... and [[YouHaveGotToBeKiddingMe he's a crazy, scheming bastard]]. I gotta hand it to the folks at Creator/GamesWorkshop; when they set out to [[CrapsackWorld create a royally messed-up world]], they ''really'' [[UpToEleven go the distance]].

[[ WMG: What exactly do they mean by indoctrination in this?]]
* Through the questioning, vanquishing and indoctrination of captives, Eltharion can gain useful information and other benefits.]]

[[ What exactly do they mean by indoctrination in this?]]
* Through the questioning, vanquishing and indoctrination of captives, Eltharion can gain useful information and other benefits.

[[How do Dwarfs handle friendly fire?]]

* Through the questioning, vanquishing and indoctrination of captives, Eltharion can gain useful information and other benefits.

** No, Warhammer Elves souls are not doomed to be grabbed by Slannesh; the Elves never did anything as foolish as the Eldar and, unlike the Eldar, the gods of the Elves are very much alive, as proven by the fact that Kurnos and Isha show up sort-of in person, since Orion and Ariel are their avatars. Most Elven souls go to their own gods on death, just as most Dwarves join their ancestors and most Humans reach Morr's kingdom. However the Elven race does have a connection with Slaanesh. Many Dark Elves worship It and thus doom themselves. More relevant to you question there is a part of Athel Loren, called the Dreaming Wood, which is partially corrupted by Slaanesh. Being in Athel Loren a combination of waystones blocking its influence and the forest itself resisting It means the influence of this is contained but the problem remains. Some Wood Elves have even gone in there to recover relics and escaped uncorrupted but it tends to go the other way and is leaving them beyond those waystones, not the ones at the edge of the forest, that Orion is using as a threat. So basically no, most Elven souls do not go to Slaanesh but more do than to any other Chaos god so they are particularly bothered by It.

*** So there ''is'' [[{{HopeSpot}} a God of Hope in the Warhammer setting]]... and [[YouHaveGotToBeKiddingMe he's a crazy, scheming bastard]]. I gotta hand it to the folks at GamesWorkshop; when they set out to [[CrapsackWorld create a royally messed-up world]], they ''really'' [[UpToEleven go the distance]].

** Essentially, CrapsackWorld. To let [[IfTheEmperorHadATextToSpeechDevice the Emperor and Magnus explain]] [[https://youtu.be/SG7VvMGw6w0?t=11m38s]], the Chaos Gods ARE also gods of different good things (Khorne for example is nominally the Chaos God of honor and justice as well), it's just, well... CrapsackWorld and they're still batshit insane.
*** So there ''is'' [[{{HopeSpot}} a God of Hope in the Warhammer setting]]... and [[YouHaveGotToBeKiddingMe he's a crazy, scheming bastard]]. I gotta hand it to the folks at GamesWorkshop; when they set out to [[{{CrapsackWorld}} create a royally messed-up world]], they ''really'' [[UpToEleven go the distance]].
** The Basic Premise of Chaos is that people are at their very core; terribly evil beings, thus Chaos is itself, terribly evil and would gladly rape a child to death for its amusement as it embodies all the sick and twisted parts of ourselves that we keep restrained in polite society. Chaos is horrific because the core assumption of Warhammer is that people are horrible and would rather kill each other than reason things out (otherwise you wouldn't get eternal war that solves nothing in the long run). Similarly, as far as many decades of canon have weighed in on the manner; it seems that positive emotions are just much weaker in terms of warp presence than negative ones in Warhammer. Rage and hate will always conquer joy and love in terms of the magical energy they feed back into the realm of chaos.

*** Basically, yes. Khorne may also represent courage, honour etc but the rage is so much more primal and, as you say, is the extremist version that he can't help but be driven by. On the subject of Chaos gods of positive aspects however these do exist, sort of. They're called Sigmar, Ulric, Morr etc. The usual position in the canon is that, while very different in nature, all gods are warp entities. As someone like Sigmar is less broad in his scope (being an incarnation of the Empire and it's spirit rather than a whole lot of primal concepts like the Chaos gods) he is not driven to such extremes and can remain a (reasonably) nice guy. The downside is that he also receives less power.

* In [[TabletopGame/Warhammer40000 WH40k]], Eldar souls are claimed by Slannesh (the chaos god of depravity) when they die unless they're caught by a soul-stone. For this reason, every Eldar carries a soul stone with them at all times, and go to great lengths to recover the stones of the fallen. The elves in warhammer fantasy don't seem to have anything like soul-stones, but still seem to have some relationship with Slannesh; In the technologies panel, it's stated that the Elven goddess of the underworld is constantly trying to recapture elven souls lost to the dark god, and Orian will sometimes promise a hostile Wood-Elven faction that he will ''"Leave [their] body beyond the way-stones for Slannesh!"'' Does this mean that every casualty that falls beyond Athel-Loren is doomed to an eternity of torment? It would certainly put a damper on any hard won victory.
** No, Warhammer Elves souls are not doomed to be grabbed by Slannesh; the Elves never did anything as foolish as the Eldar and, unlike the Eldar, the gods of the Elves are very much alive, as proven by the fact that Kurnos and Isha show up sort-of in person, since Orion and Ariel are their avatars. Most Elven souls go to their own gods on death, just as most Dwarves join their ancestors and most Humans reach Morr's kingdom. However the Elven race does have a connection with Slaanesh. Many Dark Elves worship It and thus doom themselves. More relevant to you question there is a part of Athel Loren, called the Dreaming Wood, which is partially corrupted by Slaanesh. Being in Athel Loren a combination of waystones blocking it's influence and the forest itself resisting It means the influence of this is contained but the problem remains. Some Wood Elves have even gone in there to recover relics and escaped uncorrupted but it tends to go the other way and is leaving them beyond those waystones, not the ones at the edge of the forest, that Orion is using as a threat. So basically no, most Elven souls do not go to Slaanesh but more do than to any other Chaos god so they are particularly bothered by It.

* In WH40k, Eldar souls are claimed by Slannesh (the chaos god of depravity) when they die unless they're caught by a soul-stone. For this reason, every Eldar carries a soul stone with them at all times, and go to great lengths to recover the stones of the fallen. The elves in warhammer fantasy don't seem to have anything like soul-stones, but still seem to have some relationship with Slannesh; In the technologies panel, it's stated that the Elven goddess of the underworld is constantly trying to recapture elven souls lost to the dark god, and Orian will sometimes promise a hostile Wood-Elven faction that he will ''"Leave [their] body beyond the way-stones for Slannesh!"'' Does this mean that every casualty that falls beyond Athel-Loren is doomed to an eternity of torment? It would certainly put a damper on any hard won victory.

** The Warriors of chaos make the BadassBoast that ''"No soul, however blackened or pure, shall know salvation!"'' or how they wish to march south ''"for that is where the harvest is: the souls required to slake the Chaos Gods' thirst"''. All fine and dandy; the potential to damn a soul regardless of it's nature is a time-honored tradition of grimdark settings everywhere, but how do they manage it? Do their blades absorb the thoughts and minds of their victims? Does claiming a soul require some sort of ritual? Do they pluck the ghosts from the air with cursed butterfly nets?
** The Beastmen Cygor seeks to devour the souls of magic users... how, exactly? I can understand how an magical entity like a chaos god or a demon can absorb a soul, but is the cygor trying to bite into a ghost?

* In WH40k, Eldar souls are claimed by Slannesh (the chaos god of depravity) when they die unless they're caught by a soul-stone. For this reason, every Eldar carries a soul stone with them at all times, and go to great lengths to recover the stones of the fallen. The elves in warhammer fantasy don't seem to have anything like soul-stones, but still seem to have some relationship with Slannesh; In the technologies panel, it's stated that the Elven goddess of the underworld is constantly trying to recapture elven souls lost to the dark god, and Orian will sometimes promise a hostile Wood-Elven faction that he will ''"Leave [their] body beyond the way-stones for Slannesh!"'' Does this mean that every casualty that falls beyond Athel-Loren is doomed to an eternity of torment? It would certainly put a damper on any hard won victory.

*** Indeed, as does every clan. And the hold/clan's books are often filled with grudges against other clans and holds who often have the exact same incident in their books with them portrayed as the injured party. There's a reason why the dwarfs have been less effective than humans recently. However the difference is that grudges against other dwarfs do not always have to result in warfare. The grudge can be settled with payment or the ceding of land or so forth. This often takes a while to arrange, what with dwarven stubbornness being what it is, but it can happen. Obviously this isn't an option with greenskins and such, though they do sometimes manage to arrange this sort of thing with humans.

** In the lore it states that every Karak has their own personal book of grudges.

The dwarfs make it abundantly clear that every insult, however slight, can and ''will'' be exacted no matter the cost. They even tally them up in a sacred tome called the Dammaz Kron. But what happens when two dwarven factions evoke multiple grudges against one another? [[note]]During my dwarven campagn, I got sucked into a civil war via my allies, which culminated in High King Thorgrim personally sieging and subjugating a rival Karak whilst slaughtering hundreds of defenders.[[/note]] Is the rival clan's grudge declared void somehow, or does the high king enter the loser's grudge into the Dammaz Kron and demand vengeance against ''himself''?

The dwarfs make it abundantly clear that every insult, however slight, can and ''will'' be exacted no matter the cost. They even tally them up in a sacred tome called the dammaz kron. But what happens when two dwarven factions evoke multiple grudges against one another? [[note]]During my dwarven campagn, I got sucked into a civil war via my allies, which culminated in High King Thorgrim personally sieging and subjugating a rival Karak whilst slaughtering hundreds of defendrs. Even a non-dwarven faction would have declared a grudge over that.[[/note]] Is the rival clan's grudge declared void somehow? If the conquered dwarfs seek vengeance, does ''that'' become a new grudge (therefor prompting a ''"Chicken and the Egg"'' conundrum involving battleaxes)? Does the high king enter the loser's grudge into the dammaz kron and demand vengeance against ''himself''? Any other race could simply let the matter slide for the sake of practicality, but Dwarfs being Dwarfs, it's unlikely that they'd simply HandWave the matter.

The dwarfs make it abundantly clear that every insult, however slight, can and ''will'' be exacted no matter the cost and even tally them up in a sacred tome called the dammaz kron. Vengeance is practically a sacrament to them. But what happens when two dwarven factions evoke multiple grudges against one another? During my game, two of my dwarven allies declared war upon each other, which culminated in High King Thorgrim personally sieging and subjugating a rival Karak whilst slaughtering hundreds of defendrs. Even a non-dwarven faction would have declared a grudge over that, but how do the dwarfs themselves handle such a catch-22? Is the rival clan's grudge declared void somehow? If the conquered dwarfs seek vengeance against the victors, does ''that'' become a new grudge (therefor prompting a ''"Chicken and the Egg"'' conundrum involving battleaxes)? Does the high king enter the loser's grudge into the dammaz kron and demand vengeance against ''himself''? Any other race could simply let the matter slide for the sake of practicality, but Dwarfs being Dwarfs, it's unlikely that they'd simply HandWave the matter.

*** Basically, yes. Khorne may also represent courage, honour etc but the rage is so much more primal and, as you say, is the extremist version that he can't help but be driven by. On the subject of Chaos gods of positive aspects however these do exist, sort of. They're called Sigmar, Ulric, Morr etc. The usual position in the canon is that, while very different in nature, all gods are warp entities. As someone like Sigmar is less broad in his scope (being an incarnation of the Empire and it's spirit rather than a whole lot of primal concepts like the Chaos gods) he is not driven to such extremes and can remain a (reasonably) nice guy. The downside is that he also receives less power.

*** Basically, yes. Khorne may also represent courage, honour etc but the rage is so much more primal and, as you say, is the extremist version that he can't help but be driven by. On the subject of Chaos gods of positive aspects however these do exist, sort of. They're called Sigmar Ulric, Morr etc. The usual position in the canon is that, while very different in nature, all gods are warp entities. As someone like Sigmar is less broad in his scope (being an incarnation of the Empire and it's spirit rather than a whole lot of primal concepts like the Chaos gods) he is not driven to such extremes and can remain a (reasonably) nice guy. The downside is that he also receives less power.

** OP here; I know I'm answering my own question, but the above answers of provided some insight. In our own world, the 7 deadly sins are all normally wholesome qualities taken to unhealthy extremes [[note]]i.e. gluttony vs. 4-square meals a day, sloth vs. a good nights sleep, pride vs. self-respect ect.[[/note]]. The Chaos Gods don't show off their positive traits as often[[note]]Valor (Khorne), Peace (Nurgle), Hope (Tzeench), and Love (Slannesh)[[/note]] because they are, quite literally, [[OmniscientMoralityLicense the ultimate expression of their respective Aspects and extremism is hard wired into the core of their being]].

** The Basic Premise of Chaos is that people are at their very core; terribly evil beings, thus Chaos is itself, terribly evil and would gladly rape a child to death for its amusement as it embodies all the sick and twisted parts of ourselves that we keep restrained in polite society. Chaos is horrific because the core assumption of Warhammer is that people are horrible and would rather kill each other than reason things out (otherwise you wouldn't get eternal war that solves nothing in the long run). Similarly, as far as many decades of canon have weighed in on the manner; it seems that positive emotions are just much weaker in terms of warp presence than negative ones in Warhammer. Rage and hate will always conquer joy and love in terms of the magical energy they feed back into the realm of chaos.

*** Alright, but is there any reason specified reason why Orcs are excluded? If sapient emotion is what feeds/shapes the Chaos Gods, why are Orcish souls and divinities shoved into their own separate category?

*** So there ''is'' [[{{HopeSpot}} a God of Hope in the Warhammer setting]]... and [[YouHaveGotToBeKiddingMe he's a crazy, scheming bastard]]. I gotta hand it to the folks at GamesWorkshop; when they set out to [[{{CrapsackWorld}} screw up a world as thoroughly as possible]], they ''really'' [[UpToEleven go the distance]].

*** So there ''is'' [[{{HopeSpot}} a God of Hope in the Warhammer setting]]... and [[YouHaveGotToBeKiddingMe he's a crazy, scheming bastard]]. I gotta hand it to the folks at GamesWorkshop; when they set out to [[{{CrapsackWorld}} make a setting a miserable as possible]], they really [[UpToEleven don't mess around]].