History Headscratchers / Thor

** Note that all Asgardians, by the look of it, are superhuman. It could be that their Asgardian natural abilities can take multiple forms, depending on how they choose to develop them. One trains for greater physical ability, another learns how to shoot energy blasts and create illusions. This applies doubly if my theory that the Asgardians are descendents of a prior age of superhumanity is true; part of their Asgardian science is an understanding of how metahuman powers work.

* Something I'm not entirely clear on. The Asgardians and Jotuns are both supposed to be SufficientlyAdvancedAliens wielding a mix of superscience and magitec, with Asgard and Jotunheim as their respective homeworlds and Alfheim and the other 3 realms besides Midgard not actually visited in the story. Fair enough. But were the 9 realms supposed to be different planets in the same universe, or other parallel universes that were all somehow linked to Earth?

** I'm biased here because HumanAliens like the ones of Krytpton annoy me, but I tend to think that the "Nine Realms" are all aspects of the same planet. Humans look like Asgardians because they are in fact related some how, whether or not Odin actually created mankind here -- he probably didn't, but who knows? Whatever they are, they're somehow connected in a way that Earth and wherever the Chitauri came from are not. I tend to think Asgard, Midgard, Jotunheim, etc... all occupy the same space somehow.

** That made sense, until I realized that it will probably take humans less than a decade to find a way into Asgard considering that the Avengers movie is coming out next year and Jane will be relevant in any Thor-related plotline. So humans can build a wormhole from scratch faster than the Asgardians can even though they built the one before and possess magical powers?

** Mostly I'd go with 'rule of cool' as an in-universe explanation. Just looking at Asgard, you can see that their culture places tremendous value on aesthetics and drama. And if you're in no particular hurry to get anywhere, riding a horse is just nicer. Especially horses which are presumably both enchanted and genetically enhanced. Also we never see anything of the Asgardian world beyond the city of Asgard, but it's implied (and supported in myth) that the rest of it and most of the other realms are wild. If you're going on a quest in the wild a horse makes alot more sense, since you can find feed for it most anyplace and you have no problems traveling offroad.

** In the myth, Slepnir is capable of running between the worlds without aid of bifrost, which is how Odin is able to show up unexpectedly. For that matter so can Thor and his goats. The movie weakens some of the Aesir in that it seems they ''all'' need the rainbow bridge except for Loki, who never demonstrated the ability to cross worlds without help in the myths we know of.

* Relatedly, ''nine'' realms, with Yggdrasil being space as we know it? Its made clear that they have access to all of Yggdrassil, all of a galactic cluster far bigger than we can see easily from Earth, and can easily see all that space in multiple dimensions in case there's only life on any given planet in one particular one. And, with all that space, all those dimensions, all that vision, there's only ''nine'' inhabited planets they can see? What about the Kree and Skrulls and such?
** First I'm not entirely sure whether the realms were meant to be other planets in the same universe or actual different dimensions associated with Earth (see my own headscratcher above). But if they were different planets, I'd say that 'The Realms' refers to the set of nine inhabited planets that share a mix of sufficiently advanced technology and magitec of a power comparable to the Asgardians, while having a long shared history of interworld commerce enabled by Bifrost. In fact, going by the Myths, you could also say that the races of The Realms share a common heritage and later diverged. Maybe these nine planets form a natural wormhole network that allowed the original expansion?

** If the myths about the Asgardians creating humans (or some humans) are true then they're precursors for our planet and so it's part of the realms by default. Or if the reason the giants asgardians and others look 'humanoid' is because they're the descendents of an ancestor species, and wound up on the nine worlds, then that's what defines the realms.

* Now, I can't say I'm as knowledgeable about comics as others, but doesn't Jotunheim have other Giants besides the Frost Giants? I think I've heard of Mountain Giants and Storm Giants living there. Also, since Trolls do not have their own world (at least in Myth), since they are allies of them, do they live in Joutnheim, too?

* The one thing that bothers me and I couldn't find anyone mentioning it before: If the storms on Earth are supposedly due to Bifrost opening, which probably happens on somewhat random schedule, how come Jane was able to predict previous 17 occurences (including the last one, which definitely wasn't planned by anyone beforehand).

** If I recall, the drawings in that book had different looks for the Asgardians. I seem to recall Thor being redheaded (as he is in the original myths) in the picture and the Bifrost looking more like a raindbow as opposed to the Star Trek-like beam canon in the film. Otherwise, yeah, it seems the Tesseract is a part of Nordic mythology in the MCU as Red Skull and Nick Fury both mention it belonged to history. The monks at the beginning of Film/CaptainAmericaTheFirstAvenger were also aware of this.

** This troper could be mistaken, but I believe the idea of shield maidens was in part due to a particular case in a Scandinavian coastal village (can't remember the details off the top of my head) where all of them men had left to fight, and the town was attacked. The women let their enemies in, offered them their hospitality, got them completely drunk and proceeded to slaughter them with anything they could find- which, incidentally, impressed their ruler sof his realm equal rights in inheriting property and the like. So maybe an Asgardian woman would be trained to fight well enough to defend herself in the case of invasion while all the warriors are on the front lines (though perhaps it had fallen mostly out of fashion, considering how militarily superior Asgard seems to consider itself) but not to fight a war itself.

** Personally I think they should have made that alot more clearer. Every frost giant we meet is either evil or at least a physical threat to the protagonists. They should have specified that these are just the frost giant warriors, and there's millions of frost giant civilians out there who don't deserve to die. Then we'd have a clear moral reason for not destroying Jotunheim.

** Loki was raised as an Asgardian. You don't spend thousands of years growing up in a culture that favors protection of other realms and teaches of the atrocities of a species without retaining those predelictions. Loki may have been shocked to learn he was a frost giant, but that's not going to change the education and culture he's been born to. He's still going to want to whallop frost giants, even if that does add some angst to it all when he knows he's part of that species.

** Even if the Jotuns were AlwaysChaoticEvil I think the point to not wanting their world destroyed was mostly that the heroic Asgardians are too morally upright to consider that anything but a terrible, terrible thing to do. Not just because it might upset some balance, but because as said, Genocide Is Bad. Even Thor at the height of his Jotun-hating battlelust never seems to consider that a possibility... he'll gladly fight their warriors in open combat, but wiping them all out from afar doesn't cross his mind because it's dishonorable and monstrous. The fact that Loki wants to do so pretty much shows how far he's fallen.

** We don't know how much time passed between the war with the Frost Giants and the present-day events the movie. It's entirely possible it's been thousands upon thousands of years and the Asgardians/Jotun just age really slowly compared to humans. As the above troper said, one of the Warriors Three mentions something about dropping in on Earth and being worshiped as a god. Maybe that's what Thor and the other Asgardians did during the intervening millenia.

* Minor headscratcher: Loki wearing a suit on earth. Yes he looks gorgeous. And yes I fully approve. I just don't get ''why'' though. Nobody in the entire base can see him unless he wants them too! I mean, he managed to walk all the way up the hammer and grab it without a single SHIELD personnel questioning him. He could have just been in his normal horned armour and it would have been fine.

* Why didn't Loki use the Casket on Thor during their final fight? It had to be powerful enough to freeze Hemidall, so why not use its power on Thor?

* When Thor is shot through the wall by Loki, he obviously manages to change his fall into flight with his hammer and makes his way to the Bifrost. Yet somehow Loki ''still'' arrives there before Thor, with enough time to open the Bifrost and freeze it... while travelling on horseback? And no, he wasn't even riding Sleipnir - he's just riding a normal, four legged horse.

** I had assumed that time passes in Asgard the same as it does in Midgard and Thor ''is'' approx. a thousand years old, with Loki slightly younger- but that both are still considered young man-equivalents by Asgardian standards (Odin, who looked middle-aged even during the Asgard-Jotunheim war, is probably several milennia old). Going by Norse mythology, the gods were incredibly long-lived (though they maintained their youth by eating magical golden apples) and hard to kill, but were ''not'' immortal, and I got the impression that this would also hold true for the movie's versions. So Thor ''is'' the equivalent of an impetuous young twenty-something, but because he comes from a ''very'' long lived race he's chronologically a lot older than that.
** Using 900 A.D. as reference[[note]]The battle between the Jotuns and Asgardians is shown at the begining of the film, with "900 A.D" onscreen. Odin lost his eye in the battle and it's still bleeding when he finds baby Loki.[[/note]], in 2013 Loki would be at least 1113 years old. Thor is presumably not much older than Loki, as their actors are nearly the same age.[[note]]Chris Hemsworth was 28 and Tom Hiddlestion was 31 when filming. Dakota Goyo (young Thor) and Ted Allpress (young Loki) were both almost 12.[[/note]]

** Loki was declared king and I assume that most Asgardians don't question the decisions of their king. Besides, he is a talented liar. He could have said that he needed to go to Jotunheim for peace negotiations, because of the trouble that Thor had caused. On the other hand, I doubt that Heimdall would have bought that, as he never really fell for Loki's lies and that he always was suspicious of him. Also, showing up with a dozen of guards by Loki's side could've ticked Laufey off, thinking that Loki was launching an attack. He probably upped his defences ever since Thor wrecked his kingdom. I think that Loki wanted to show that he wasn't a threat by coming alone. And about those secret passages: I think it would've been even more suspicious if he did use those to get to Jotunheim at the time and if he didn't tell anybody where he was. Like I said, Loki was the friggin' king. He was being watched all the time by his guards and had to run a kingdom. If he suddenly disappeared, everybody would freak out and that is the last thing that Loki wants. Maybe Heimdall wouldn't have bought it, but I think that his guards would've believed him when he would tell them that he needed to go to Jotunheim alone to negotiate with Laufey about a truce between the two realms.

* If you pause while Erik is flipping his Mythology book and peer closely at Loki's page, it says Loki already killed Balder, after being disgraced for his trickery and winning his way back in with his silver tongue. Which I'm unfond of because it makes Loki into a repeat offender instead of a man who had a psycotic break.

** Coulson threatening to tase Stark was just part of his gambit to get Tony to go to work, ''thinking'' that Big Brother was acting big, tough, and clueless. Recall if you will how Phil uses the tough-guy act and then... Just lets Stark go out for a spin in the sportscar for fun? There's a good entry somewhere on the site that gives a good roundup on Coulson's personality as a manipulator on par with Loki.

** They were pretty much the tipping point. Here is a guy who was in a crazy ass cloud, appeared on a crazy symbol laden engraving in the desert, has the body of a God, proclaims himself to be a God, is determined to reach a hammer that fell down from space (which is being investigated by SHIELD no less), is sufficient in kicking all sorts of ass, draws out a map of the cosmos (based on your own notes) and now he is joined by four people wearing leather, chainmail and plate armour have come knocking even though you're out in the middle of nowhere. One is hard to buy, but when you now have five people claiming to be Gods and a mountain of evidence backing them up its time to start believing.

** No, it's not at all. Loki is sympathetic, that's for sure. But nowhere in his motives or plan does it justify how far he took it. Loki is responsible for the murder of at least two innocent people, willing led assassin's to his defenseless father, then betrayed them too simply to look like a hero, nearly killing his mother in the process. Then, he visits Thor to basically say "Lulz, you killed dad. By the way, I'm totally gonna screw with that chick your in love with." For no other reason than to crush him. And his attempt to destroy Jotunheim is motivated to please Odn, and his own rejection of his heritage, not because he actually cared about Asgard. Hell, he's willing to commit genocide to please a father who ALREADY LOVES HIM. Loki actually got off fairly easy.

** Yeah, Tom Hiddleston is mad sexy as Loki. But also, just like in real life, it takes a certain amount of maturity to love, or have sympathy for a person/character and still be able to acknowledge their faults. Loki is very sympathetic, very realateble, very much in need of a hug, but still very often in the wrong. This kind of denial happens all the time in real life - it shouldn't be terribly surprising when it crops up in fandom. Especially when the most vocal and aggressive segments of any fandom are rarely the most reasonable.

** Agree with the above. I seem to be coming in a little late...but I'll take a shot at it anyway. The way I see it, the fangirls who worship Loki are wrong in saying he's done nothing wrong, and I also hate it when other characters are portrayed as bastards in order to make the favourite character look good. But on the other hand, calling Loki outright evil is wrong too. At the beginning of the film, he's basically what one of the warriors described him as; one for harmless mischief and tricks, and a deleted scene showing the brotherly bond between Thor and Loki highlights this even more. And when Thor was about to become king, Loki rightly noticed that his brother wasn't ready, and letting the Frost Giants in proved this to Odin, thus sparing Asgard a massive headache - and possibly, also helping his brother out as well, giving him more time to mature and become a better king. Of course, things got out of hand; he looked genuinely shocked when Odin banished Thor. But what really drove him over the edge was finding out that he was a Frost Giant. In his eyes, he'd just discovered that he was the monster that children looked for under their beds. So of course he's going to have a breakdown, which leads him to take his father's words the wrong way; but when he shouts at his father, who promptly collapses, Loki instantly panics and calls for help. What follows is him trying to prove to his father - and to himself - that he's a worthy son, Thor's equal, and an Asgardian through and through. This includes killing Laufey and the Frost Giants, thus disconnecting himself from his origins, and even though he puts both his parents in danger, he obviously had it all under control. He just goes the wrong way in doing this without realizing the full extent and consequences of his actions, and when everything begins to fall apart, he panics and does things he probably would never have done before. His actions and the reasons for his actions puts him between what fangirls think and what haters think; a sympathetic villain, but his actions can't be justified by his reasons (but they can be understood). Of course, this doesn't mean that he can't be redeemed; in this Troper's opinion, almost anything can be forgiven, so long as the person tries to genuinely and selflessly make up for it. If Loki does that, then there should be no problems.

** Fridge Brilliance:For all we know Odin could have been like Thor. In his younger days but the war with the Frost Giants could have shown him the horrors of war. This is also why Ordin was so furious at Thor. It reminded him of how he was like.

** While all Norse gods have their warrior aspect, they have many others besides. This troper submits into evidence the story of Loki murdering Baldur. After arranging Baldur's death (involving magically forging a sprig of mistletoe, the only thing that hadn't sworn to never harm Baldur, into a spear, and getting a blind god to throw it at him), Loki is brought before Odin for judgement. Odin decides that Loki will go free, with ''no'' punishment, if he can but shed one sincere tear of remorse for Baldur's death. Now, Baldur was ''the'' most beloved of all Aesir (which is why everything in creation agreed to do him no harm), and according to some tellings his death kickstarts Ragnarok. Despite Loki having murdered the most beautiful and beloved god of all (and possibly bringing about the end of the world), Odin was still prepared to let him go scot-free if he just felt really bad about it! Compare to, say, what Zeus did to Prometheus for handing a dumb ape a burning stick. . . Odin is primarily a god of wisdom and knowledge. His emphasis on warfare is largely due to his knowledge that Ragnarok is coming, and he can't stop it, but he'll try anyway. Point of fact: dying in battle wasn't the "only" way to a good afterlife. Half the slain of a battle go to Valhalla (Odin's Boot Camp for Ragnarok Soliders), the other half go to Folkvang (Freya's hall, where they're reunited with their lovers after death.) Everyone else goes to Hel/Hela's domain, which is just an afterlife, not a particularly unpleasant one, despite what Christian missionaries will tell you. Sure, Hela had a little corner of her domain set aside for people who needed some extra punishment, but by and large, Hel was just a place you went so you didn't mess things up by being a dead person in the land of the living. Under his aspect as a god of wisdom and knowledge, war for war's sake is about the least wise thing a person can do. Hence, him being very disappointed and angry with Thor for doing exactly that.

** For all Thor and the other Asgardians know, the three Jotun that snuck into Asgard are a splinter group of rebels, acting on their own without any approval from any legitimate government of Jotunheim. Before committing all of Asgard to a what was either a thawing of the Asgard/Jotunheim Cold War or the Second World War equivalent, it might have been a good idea for Thor and Co. to, you know, ask questions (politely) or search in Asgard for how the Jotun entered in the first place. This troper was under the impression that Heimdal let the group through he Bifrost to investigate, not start a war. Even if the Jotun [[CycleOfRevenge "struck first"]], Thor was over-escalating, making him both greedy for glory/fame, vain in his callous treatment of [[WhatMeasureIsANonhuman life]], and cruel in his overwhelming desire for war.

* Why doesn't Odin punish Heimdall when he let Thor, Loki and the others go to Joutenheim the first time around? It's pretty heavily implied that he doesn't have to take orders from anyone except Odin, and Heimdalls actions almost resulted in war. I can see Thor being punished for draggin the others along, but this has always baffled me. Someone, please explain?

** Also, he couldn't get near the Brifost.

* Just what were those circular objects Odin took from Thor's shoulders when banishing him?. I'd assume they'd hold up his cape,but including them in the removal makes it seem like they're a badge of office or something.

* The Jotun have lost their greatest magic relic to Asgard, they can't travel to Asgard without inside help, and Asgard has a weapon of mass destruction (the bifrost) that can literally destroy their homeworld at Odin's command and they can do nothing to stop it. Yet when Laufey declares war on Asgard after Thor starts a fight in his realm, Odin takes the threat completely seriously instead of laughing in his face. What can the Jotun even do to back up that threat?

** On the director's commentary track of the DVD, KennethBranagh uses a lot of words to say, effectively, "[[RuleOfCool It looked cool]]."

** I wouldn't bet on Jane playing a large role in ''Film/TheAvengers'' -- filming is just about done, and Natalie Portman isn't listed as being in it.

** Maybe. In ''Film/TheAvengers'', the Helicarrier didn't stop when Thor dropped it. Depends on how it is measuring "movement." Cutting out a big slab of the earth it's sitting on would probably be fine, but I think an excavator would trigger the hammer's "Something is trying to move me, stop it," since it disturbs the earth so much.

* How old exactly ''is'' Thor? He does not seem to [[ReallySevenHundredYearsOld act his age]] at all. Loki says in ''Film/TheAvengers'' that humans ''think'' the Asgardians are immortal; but he then asks to test it (Implying it's either not true or maybe they honestly don't know if they're immortal or not). Odin speaks of his "father before him," implying that there ''have'' been previous generations of Asgardians that have come and gone; hence ''not'' immortal. Are they super long-lived (so much so Thor was old enough to fight during Viking times)? Does time pass differently in Asgard then it does in Midgard? Are there many generations of Odins and Thors and Lokis?

** As of ''Film/TheAvengers'', SHIELD researching the remains of the Destroyer, at least, is [[spoiler: confirmed. Furthermore, they've built a {{BFG}} using the tech and it's complete enough for Coulson to use it against Loki, though he claims not to know what it does.]]

*** It's possible to calculate Asgardian mental maturity vs. physical age, based on evidence from the films. In ''The Dark World'', Loki implies that Asgardians live for about five thousand years or so. Taking average human life expectancy as about eighty years, and assuming that Asgardians mature mentally at a rate that's more or less proportional to their lifespan- like humans- 62.5 years for an Asgardian is equivalent to one year of human development. Assuming that Loki was born during or at the end of the war between Asgard and Jotunheim, dated at about 965 C.E., and that Thor is a few years/decades older, both of them come out at about only ''seventeen years old'' mentally. [[FridgeBrilliance Which actually explains a lot]].

*** That's a masterwork of AlternateCharacterInterpretation right there.

** While all Norse gods have their warrior aspect, they have many others besides. This troper submits into evidence the story of Loki murdering Baldur. After arranging Baldur's death (involving magically forging a sprig of mistletoe, the only thing that hadn't sworn to never harm Baldur, into a spear, and getting a blind god to throw it at him), Loki is brought before Odin for judgement. Odin decides that Loki will go free, with ''no'' punishment, if he can but shed one sincere tear of remorse for Baldur's death. Now, Baldur was ''the'' most beloved of all Aesir (which is why everything in creation agreed to do him no harm), and according to some tellings his death kickstarts Ragnarok. Despite Loki having murdered the most beautiful and beloved god of all (and possibly bringing about the end of the world), Odin was still prepared to let him go scot-free if he just felt really bad about it! Compare to, say, what Zeus did to Prometheus for handing a dumb ape a burning stick. . .

Odin is primarily a god of wisdom and knowledge. His emphasis on warfare is largely due to his knowledge that Ragnarok is coming, and he can't stop it, but he'll try anyway. Point of fact: dying in battle wasn't the "only" way to a good afterlife. Half the slain of a battle go to Valhalla (Odin's Boot Camp for Ragnarok Soliders), the other half go to Folkvang (Freya's hall, where they're reunited with their lovers after death.) Everyone else goes to Hel/Hela's domain, which is just an afterlife, not a particularly unpleasant one, despite what Christian missionaries will tell you. Sure, Hela had a little corner of her domain set aside for people who needed some extra punishment, but by and large, Hel was just a place you went so you didn't mess things up by being a dead person in the land of the living. Under his aspect as a god of wisdom and knowledge, war for war's sake is about the least wise thing a person can do. Hence, him being very disappointed and angry with Thor for doing exactly that.

*** Calculating Asgardian mental maturity vs. physical age, based on evidence from the films. In ''The Dark World'', Loki implies that Asgardians live for about five thousand years or so. Taking average human life expectancy as about eighty years, and assuming that Asgardians mature mentally at a rate that's more or less proportional to their lifespan- just like humans- 62.5 years for an Asgardian is equivalent to one year of human development. Assuming that Loki was born during the war between Asgard and Jotunheim, dated at about 965 A.D., and that Thor is a few years/decades older, both of them come out at about seventeen years old mentally. [[FridgeBrilliance Which actually explains a lot]].

*** This troper actually calculated Asgardian mental maturity vs. physical age a while ago, based on evidence from the films. In ''The Dark World'', Loki implies that Asgardians live for about five thousand years or so. Taking average human life expectancy as about eighty years, and assuming that Asgardians mature mentally at a rate that's more or less proportional to their lifespan- just like humans- 62.5 years for an Asgardian is equivalent to one year of human development. Assuming that Loki was born during the war between Asgard and Jotunheim, dated at about 965 A.D., and that Thor is a few years/decades older, both of them come out at about seventeen years old mentally. [[FridgeBrilliance Which actually explains a lot]].

* Also, who's to say that frost giants are the only intelligent beings in Jotunheim? There could be any number of other beings there - inoffensive vassals of the frost giants, or inhabitants of regions unsuited for the giants to live in - that we never see, that'd be caught in the crossfire of a large-scale war.

* When Thor falls from the guy and meets Dr. Foster, Dr. Selvig, and Darcy, he refers to him as "Thor" and uses words like "Mjolnir" and "Bifrost". However, only Selvig appears to recognize these words, because he's Scandinavian and has heard stories of Norse gods as a kid. But the other two are also university-educated, and Norse mythology (particularly the name "Thor") is pretty well-known in the Western world, so how come they didn't realize what Thor was talking about?

* How could Loki not know he's half-giant? NorseMythology states this right out, and in this film, Earth got its mythology from Asgard. How could something that was common knowledge on Earth be a secret in Asgard?
** There are many details that don't line up between NorseMythology and Marvel's Asgardians, the most immediate being Loki as Odin's son and Thor's brother. Loki probably had heard it and simply assumed the humans got it wrong, as usual, when really they were on to something in this case.

*** Note that all Asgardians, by the look of it, are superhuman. It could be that their Asgardian natural abilities can take multiple forms, depending on how they choose to develop them. One trains for greater physical ability, another learns how to shoot energy blasts and create illusions. This applies doubly if my theory that the Asgardians are descendents of a prior age of superhumanity is true; part of their Asgardian science is an understanding of how metahuman powers work.
**** So, by that token, Thor and Loki's powers would essentially be souped-up version of Storm and the Scarlet Witch's powers? (Weather manipulation and ability to use magic)
***** Yes, sort of. There are three bits I would emphasize as far as my theory goes. The first is that Asgardian "magic weapons" would probably be, at least in part, powered and controlled by Asgardian natural powers. So when an Asgardian learns and masters a weapon, they literally connect to it and fuel it with their own might. If this theory is correct, than any Asgardian device more complicated than a simple object probably can't be used properly by a mortal, because they can't interface with it. The second is that "physical might" is its own valid power, which Thor ( and most Asgardian warriors ) clearly have in excess of Loki. Not all Asgardians are equal. Third and finally, I would emphasize that to Asgardians, their powers are likely *trainable*. Thor isn't as bricky as he is, just because he is, but because he sought to make himself bricky. Loki didn't just pull illusion powers out of his ass, he *learned* how to do them.
****** So you're basically saying the movie Asgardians are Jack Kirby's Eternals? Because that's exactly what the Eternals do, they all have the same powers but focus on different aspects of them resulting in one of them being super-fast while another is super-strong. They even have the whole "mistaken for gods" thing.

*** Since Erik and Jane serve as the modern, scientific perspective on Asgard, his describing Asgard to Nick Fury as another dimension is probably meant to be the closest answer. It's worth noting that the Einstein-Rosen bridge Jane talks about (which turns out to be the Bifrost as seen from Earth) is a real concept: it's a hypothetical wormhole inside a black hole that leads to another universe.
*** I'm biased here because HumanAliens like the ones of Krytpton annoy me, but I tend to think that the "Nine Realms" are all aspects of the same planet. Humans look like Asgardians because they are in fact related some how, whether or not Odin actually created mankind here -- he probably didn't, but who knows? Whatever they are, they're somehow connected in a way that Earth and wherever the Chitauri came from are not. I tend to think Asgard, Midgard, Jotunheim, etc... all occupy the same space somehow.

*** I was referring to the comics, where that ability was established in canon.
**** (Apologizing for potential dickishness in advance) This isn't the comics.

*** That made sense, until I realized that it will probably take humans less than a decade to find a way into Asgard considering that the Avengers movie is coming out next year and Jane will be relevant in any Thor-related plotline. So humans can build a wormhole from scratch faster than the Asgardians can even though they built the one before and possess magical powers?
**** There is this guy who, if given a week, a cave, and a box of scraps...
**** I wouldn't bet on Jane playing a large role in ''Film/TheAvengers'' -- filming is just about done, and Natalie Portman isn't listed as being in it.
*** I'm sure there's a trope about this. Asgardians are immortal. They're in no hurry to get it done because they've got all the time in the world. If it takes a hundred years(and for all we know maybe it did take hundreds of years to build the Bifrost the first time) that's no skin off their noses. Conversely, Humans are often noted in fiction to be able to accomplish a great deal in a short amount of time because they've got such limited lifespans that they have to squeeze everything in to a scant 60-100 years.
*** It's also possible that they're not just trying to rebuild Bifrost, they're trying to re-design it. Given that Loki nearly destroyed Jotunheim with it, they might be trying to ensure that when the re-build it, it'll have safety features that prevent that kind of abuse in the future.

*** Also, its probable safe to assume anything in the Asgardian realm is far superior to its Earth variant. In the comics a flying horses are pretty much equal or superior to the modern aircraft. In the film, Odin had a horse with eight-legs. So for them horses being equal or superior to cars works.
*** I would be deeply amused if, in a future Thor movie, some mortal soldiers from Earth open fire on a mounted Asgardian, and not only do the bullets bounce of the Asgardian, but off his horse too. . .

*** [[{{Squick}} No, please]] [[BrainBleach don't go there]]
*** Yup. An eight-legged horse; that's got to be Sleipnir Lokisson.
*** MCU Sleipnir isn't necessarily the child of Loki, given that MCU Loki hasn't demonstrated any shapeshifting abilities. His origins completely aside, Sleipnir is an iconic element of Odin's myth in his own right and was probably included solely because of that, in the same way that the explanation of the loss of Odin's eye is also completely different in the MCU but was presumably included because Odin is iconically one-eyed.

*** The post-credits scene mentioned "dimensions." Based on this and the lack of the use of the world planets I take it the nine "realms" are nine different dimensions that are linked by naturally occurring wormholes/gates like in the comics. Bifrost and other such devices are just safe means to access these gates. Asgard at least seems to operate by different rules of physics by being a flat Earth instead of a round planet so it is a different dimension. So the nine realms are only those worlds the wormholes naturally go to. There could easily be other planets/dimensions out there, but the Asgardians do not overly concern themselves with them. However, based on some of the items in Odin's vault its clear Odin at least takes somewhat of an interest in them.
**** It would beg the question of why Earth ( Midgard ) counts, given its relatively primitive tech/magic base and squishy mortal residents. However, bear in mind there are enough different realms in both Norse myth and Thor comics to easily provide for nine of them *and* Midgard.
**** That would probably indicate shared heritage, since Midgard does seem to be the odd world out. Although, given the kind of people we put out whenever we get an age of heroes going (it's a good bet Hercules and Ramma and such were part of an earlier generation of Metahumans) it may well be that we DO compare to the Asgardians. Or the Frost Giants at least.
**** If the myths about the Asgardians creating humans (or some humans) are true then they're precursors for our planet and so it's part of the realms by default. Or if the reason the giants asgardians and others look 'humanoid' is because they're the descendents of an ancestor species, and wound up on the nine worlds, then that's what defines the realms.
**** Asgard and the other Realms could be pocket dimensions linked to earth via a wormhole network. They might be able to see the rest of the universe but not necessarily access it which would also explain why the Jotuns tried to invade earth. We may be the only realm with easy access to the universe at large while everyone else needs to travel along Yggdrasil.

*** Then again, Loki made it back to Earth. You never know...
**** As per Avengers, Loki made it to some unknown corner of space [[spoiler: where Thanos happened to be]], so the Bifrost chamber-thingy (which fell first) is either there or somewhere else.

*** Let's also remember that in the myth, it's a slightly harsher version of Scandinavia. You know, where it's cold and frozen most of the time.
*** Except it isn't really all that cold and frozen in the parts of Scandinavia that were inhabited by Vikings - certainly not ''most'' of the time (the average temperature is over zero for more than half of the year - and it was so back in the Viking era, too). And that myth, as the initial entry pointed out, already ''had'' a world for "frozen wasteland". Jotunheim is supposed to be an oversized place - harsher in the sense that its dangers are proportionate to its inhabitants, who are, lest one forget, only vaguely separated from the gods of the mythology (there are ''several'' cases of giants becoming gods by marriage and/or adoptive siblingship).

*** We see Jotunheim from orbit when the Bifrost hits it. It looked like an ice world, or at least a [[{{Franchise/StarTrek}} Class-M]] world going through an ice age.

*** Confirmed in ''Film/ThorTheDarkWorld''. After helping bringing peace to his home realm, he decides to remain there for a while.
*** (For those wondering, he's a [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanir Vanr]].)

*** It's [[AllThereInTheManual all there in the myth]]. But yes, Sleipnir (the horse) ''does'' have eight legs, is totally magic, and probably can be summoned and dismissed like an [[VideoGame/FinalFantasyX Aeon]].
*** Not to mention all the horses seem to just magically appear/vanish as needed. Thor & Co ride out to the Bifrost, then dismount and the horses go ...where? . Loki goes from being on foot in the palace to racing mounted across the Bifrost incredibly quickly, and the horse is definitely not hanging out on the bridge during the final battle.

*** That part's a bit easier to account for, because the truth would be mixed in with all the other stuff and he wouldn't ''want'' to believe it. "Is my brother a redhead? Am I blood brothers with my father? Didn't think so."
*** Still, it was kinda weird how they predicted Loki's FaceHeelTurn.
*** That one's even easier to account for. Loki's still a trickster even when he's "good". (And he's obviously not ''that'' good since he was willing to let sworn enemies of his entire world into the heart of the city to humiliate his brother on his coronation day, which is a little bit more than a harmless prank.) He no doubt had quite a bit of "fun" with mortals when he visited Earth, so he and the others probably weren't exactly surprised when he wound up portrayed as more villainous than he was really supposed to be.
*** "Brother, why do the mortal myths keep turning me into a monster?" "Well, brother, I don't know how to tell you this, but you were kind of an asshole down there..."

*** Jane was concerned that the wind and sand would bury them so it s seems likely they didn't last long.

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%%Carrizi, it is against the site's policy to just delete answers to your Headscratchers. Yes, even if they're jokey answers.
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*** Perhaps not, but I've left the engine running while I stepped out for a couple seconds. I'd just think that kind of situation would come up at some point in his centuries of life, is all.
*** No reason it would have, necessarily. If they were always going to a less desolate place for more stand-up encounters, he may have just never had a reason to ask for the Bifrost to be left open.

*** After a bit of research, the idea that the ancient vikings had female warriors is a myth. Their roles were pretty much the same as in any other ancient European culture, particularly the part about staying at home while the men fought. Nordic myths actually reflected that. Sif was originally just a fertility goddess. Even the concept of the Valkyrie warrior women was largely misunderstood. They carried the souls of dead warriors to Valhalla but were not themselves warriors. So the film makers might have ShownTheirWork in this regard.

*** Personally I think they should have made that alot more clearer. Every frost giant we meet is either evil or at least a physical threat to the protagonists. They should have specified that these are just the frost giant warriors, and there's millions of frost giant civilians out there who don't deserve to die. Then we'd have a clear moral reason for not destroying Jotunheim.
**** Yes, but the audience shouldn't really be assuming in the first place that the whole planet's population is AlwaysChaoticEvil just because they've seen a few dozen of them. Although [[HumansAreBastards they are going to do so anyway]], I suppose...
*** Well, the leader of the Jotuns is introduced in the present by...giving Thor and his buddies the chance to leave peacefully, and clearly has no interest in reigniting their ancient war. That's clearly not AlwaysChaoticEvil, especially coming from their leader.
*** Why did he hate them so much anyhow? He is a Frost Giant by birth, and deems himself to be TheUnfavourite because of his heritage. After killing Laufey, he could have assumed leadership of both Asgard and Jotunheim - and, judging by Odin's speech, ''that'' is would have made him really proud of Loki. In addition, that gambit would have been worthy of [[ComicBook/{{Watchmen}} Ozymandias]].
**** Dunno, if I was a Frost Giant, and all of sudden Loki appeared saying "GUYS I SLEW YOUR KING BUT DON'T WORRY I AM HIS SON YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD OF, BOW TO ME PLZ?", I wouldn't be exactly welcoming of that idea, and probably would chalk it off as Asgardian witchery. I am not even sure if Laufey himself was aware Loki was his son.
*** Loki was raised as an Asgardian. You don't spend thousands of years growing up in a culture that favors protection of other realms and teaches of the atrocities of a species without retaining those predelictions. Loki may have been shocked to learn he was a frost giant, but that's not going to change the education and culture he's been born to. He's still going to want to whallop frost giants, even if that does add some angst to it all when he knows he's part of that species.

***** I just assumed that Frost Giant culture encourages KlingonPromotion.
***** I never got the impression that Loki would have ''wanted'' to be King of the Frost Giants. He doesn't seem to have any desire to connect with his true heritage- quite the opposite, in fact. He wants to be honored ''as an Asgardian'', and he intended to ensure that by saving Odin (albeit from a danger he put him in in the first place) and wiping out Jotunheim.
***** In response to the question, there's probably a delicate balance to Yggdrasil that destroying Jotunheim would upset. In general, this actually made me scratch my head as Loki in the comics embraces his Jotun heritage, leading them into battle, rather than trying to destroy them.
****** Well, now that Jotunheim is leaderless and Loki is exiled, he'd probably try to take over.
****** Granted, it'd be tough since Frost Giants probably wouldn't trust an 'Asgardian'. But hey, he's Loki, if he can't do it no one can. Just show off some blue skin.
***** Usually in Marvel once Laufey dies, doesn't the EvilSorcerer Utgard-Loki try to become King? (No relation)
****** Just turning into his Frost Giant form probably wouldn't cut it- they'd likely just assume it was Odin's shapeshifting trickster son who already got their king killed trying to pull a fast one on them (and largely, they'd be right). But still, he ''is'' [[ManipulativeBastard Loki]], and I've no doubt he could at least convince some of the more mercenary giants to work for him, given time.
****** When Loki finds out about his Frost Giant heritage, Odin also mentions that Loki was abandoned, possibly for being "small for a Frost Giant baby." Indicating that in addition to his feelings of inferiority to Thor, he may also have abandonment issues with the Frost Giants as a whole, which could explain why he decides to wipe them all out.

*** This troper supports the explanation above

*** Yeah. Odin tells his sons to leave them alone because they'll start a war and war is terrible- but the war was about to be started anyway thanks to Thor. I think Loki figured that Odin would draw a distinction between 'attacking them in peacetime' and 'attacking them as supposed self defense'.
**** I don't think Loki saw himself as a Frost Giant, even after the revelation: he'd had a lifetime of being raised with pride in Asgard and hatred for Jotunheim, and a few days of knowing that he's an adopted Frost Giant. If anything, finding out his origin just kicked Loki's WellDoneSonGuy issues into even more intense overdrive and he hated the Frost Giants even more now, because he sees his own heritage as the reason Thor's always been the favored son. He thought that destroying Jotunheim would prove to everyone, especially Odin, that he's really loyal to Asgard after all.

*** Please tell me you are not so foolish as to believe that, the real life part, anyway.
**** Believe which part? Every real life fact I said is true. I didn't say that's why the Iraq War happened. Movies about Norse gods can take inspiration from history without following it to the letter.

*** ^Exactly. In another scene one of the Warriors Three mentions that Loki is "skilled in magic". His shape-shifting, holo-clones, and cloaking are learned skills, not inborn abilities.

*** If it was Loki doing that - and I personally think it was - it could also be construed as him instinctively taking the form most pleasing to the person holding him. Which, when you get right down to it, is the core element of Loki's personality in the film, and his relationship with Odin.

*** Yeah. Sort of a big anti-racism statement.

*** This theory also explains his "You're my son, I want to protect you" line really well. Odin also said that his plans to somehow have Loki help with/be part of a peace accord "no longer matter." Clearly he doesn't have anything planned for Loki like that anymore.
**** Well, the impending war may have screwed that more than anything.

*** The first hit was not by a car coming to a full stop, although it was probably not head-on either (I think they swerved a bit to the side). Then after they hit him, they came to a full stop. They were driving a large vehicle and driving very quickly to chase the storm, so the impact should still have been considerable, right? I'm just bringing up this point because it does seem as if his resilience, though diminished, is still incredibly high.
*** It is worth noting that tasers don't work by taking off hit points, they work by issuing a status effect. In other words, they don't so much hit you as hack into your nervous system and pump it full of high-intensity gibberish, making your whole body go FAWHFJAEJKL:ASLAWRA.

*** It's evident when he's fighting the big ScaryBlackMan; strong as he is being mortal, this particular GiantMook gives him a good run.

*** Or more simply- "Where did you get your training? Afghanistan? Iraq" "ASGARD, MOTHER-LOVER!"

*** Which is basically what he is thought of in Asgard (note how everybody talks about his "silver tongue" and his "tricks"), until Thor is banished and Loki goes full-on heel. FridgeBrilliance?

*** It was more than 1000 years since the Asgardians defeated the Frost Giants if Odin's eye is any indication. The opening fight is set around 900 A.D., during which Laufey shoots Odin in the eye with that spiky ice ball. The fight ends in Jotunheim with Odin standing over the defeated Laufey with a bloody hole where his eye used to be. Unless Odin left that wound to fester for years, the war must have lasted hours at best. Odin found baby Loki around the same time, meaning that both he and Thor are more than 1000 years old because Thor is the older brother.

*** Although that is exactly how the SEP field works: The more ridiculous and out of place something looks, the more people will ignore it.
*** No, that's how one specific SEP field works. The ''concept'' of "Somebody Else's Problem", which has been used in numerous other places, makes no such distinction. Loki may be using a version that basically says "Don't mind me, just another guy in a nice suit."

*** Yep. You can see the glowing blue outline of the Casket sitting where Heimdall's sword would normally be after the energy beam hits Jotunheim. Loki waves his hand, activating the Casket, then the Bifrost energy matrix starts freezing.

*** Sif was born blonde. It was kind of her thing, actually. Loki cut it all off and replaced if with black hair as a prank.
**** First, this isn't confirmed as canon in the Marvel-verse so it means nothing. Second, that is completely incorrect; In the myth, after Loki cuts off Sif's hair, he is forced by Thor to fix it. The wig he obtains for Sif is described as woven gold. She was never a brunette in the myths, real hair or not.
*** ...Which is irrelevant since we don't even know if that incident occurred in the movieverse. The fact is there are examples of non-blonde Asgardians. Sif is one, Volstagg is another. Technically Heimdall would also count. Asgard is not the Aryan wasteland you imagine it to be.
*** OP has a point, but in a different way. Odin, Frigga, and Thor are blonds. Loki has black hair. Surely, the Asgardians would have noticed that the younger prince didn't really resemble his relatives.
**** To be fair, although Thor seems to be Odin and Frigga's child, in the original myths, it was Odin and a giantess named Fjorgyn who were his parents. He might not have been in Zeus' league, but Odin got around.

*** In the mythology Loki is half-giant, half-alfa (elf). Whether it's the same in the movies or not idk.

*** Mythologically speaking, at least, there's no 'might.' Loki IS a shapeshifter. He can even [[StealthPun do horses.]]

*** But becoming king wasn't really on Loki's agenda, or was it?
*** I don't believe so. But I also think that once he'd tasted power, Loki found himself unwilling to give it up. He also already had his plans in motion for winning Odin's blessing by destroying the Jotuns and he sure as Hel wasn't going to let ''anyone'' mess that up.
*** Well, Loki would have given power back to Odin, once he woke up, otherwise his "rescue plan" would have been pretty pointless. Also, if Thor returned without his powers, I doubt the Asgardians would just have made him king.
*** Loki wasn't going to just sit back and trust his lucky stars that Thor would never get his powers back.
*** Also, from Loki's perspective, if he successfully carries out his plan and destroys the Jotuns, then he's cemented himself as Odin's heir. He doesn't need to give up his throne forever- after all, Odin was ready to crown Thor, which says that he's ready or almost ready to step down himself. If Thor comes back, it screws ''everything'' up.
*** But even ''if'' Thor got his powers back without Loki's interaction - Loki was already in control of the Bifröst. Thor had no way coming back to Asgard unless Loki wanted him to.
*** Or if Heimdall turned on him- which Loki obviously believed was a possibility, since he went out of his way to ''freeze the guy solid''! Besides, smart as he is, is Loki ''really'' operating rationally on the subject of his family? I don't really think so...

*** [[VoodooShark That Just Raises Further Questions]] because references to Thor, Loki and Odin are ''much'' older than 900 AD. Unless Odin visited Earth before and was actually inspired by the myths, and named his kids after them. Or Norse Mythology is very different in the movie universe.
*** Most of what we know about the Norse gods comes from after the Viking Age. Containing the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda Poetic Edda]], the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Regius Codex Regius]] is thought to have been written in 1270. The [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda Prose Edda]] was thought to have been written around 1220. That leaves at least a good 320 years between the Jotun-Asgardian war on Earth and the writing of the best known sources of the Norse myths. It's also worth noting that the Prose Edda is Icelandic, and the Jotun-Asgardian war is shown to take place in Iceland. And for what it's worth, ''Loki'' shows that there are definitely more incarnations of the gods.[[note]]I don't think it's canon to the main comics, but I could be wrong. Either way, it's definitely worth the read. A movie was made out of it, ''Thor & Loki: Blood Brothers'' which is also very good.[[/note]] Whether or not this is true for the films...
**** Yes, the Eddas are the ''primary'' sources of information on the Norse Myths, but far from the ''only'' ones. The poem ''Haustlöng'', which is the first confirmed mention of Loki (references to Thor are much older), was actually written circa 900AD... Finding this out, I think this could be possible FridgeBrilliance, since the filmmakers must have done some research and might have deliberately set the discovery of Loki at the exact time the first story about him was written... since that story is about Odin and Loki going on an adventure together, My WildMassGuessing would then be that Odin made the story up as a bedtime story for his brand new son about the adventures he would have, and some Norse poets overheard it. By the way my source on this is the [[http://www.norsemyth.org/ Norse Mythology Blog]] who also have an interesting article about Stan Lee and Jack Kirby having ShownTheirWork in the comics a lot more than people, even scholars give them credit for. Read it [[http://www.norsemyth.org/2011/09/blond-thor-stan-lee-wasnt-wrong.html here.]]

*** In the comics, Balder is Thor's half-brother and current King of Asgard. Which is why his absence in the movie is strange, giving his recent raise in importance. Then again, this is something recent, he was not know by anyone but Odin to be prince until a few years ago (in RealLife time, not ComicBookTime). He can appear in a future movie without and still be faithful to the comic without much of a hassle. He shouldn't be a old generation god, though.
*** Worth noting that just a few weeks before the movie was released, Balder was shuffled off to comic-book limbo in the monthly series. Additionally, rumor had it that the initial script treatment for the film had Balder getting killed in the pre-credits sequence. I suspect Balder won't be showing up in the Thor movie franchise. Between Thor, Sif, Heimdall, and Fandral he'd be somewhat redundant, and all of the sudden Thor having this other "best friend" that just sorta skipped all the drama of the last film would seem a bit jarring. I could be wrong though. It did seem to me that they sort of divided his character between Heimdall and Fandral.

*** Tyr was also left out, probably as he is also a son of Odin. That said most of Odin's boys were to different mothers. So they could be still out there in the court, not knowing they're royal bastards.

*** You sir just made me like that scene a whole lot more.

*** Aw man, that's a pity. It would have been an awesome reference.

*** He already demonstrated what amounts to telepathic tricks earlier, with his "none of you can see me" trip through the SHIELD outpost. Is it really all that shocking that he can also control minds. Why does he not use this in battle elsewhere? Probably because Asgardians and other magical/advanced beings are more tolerant of, and/or more perceptive of, telepathic influence.
**** Asgardian helmets might block telepathy, similar to how Sebastian Shaw's helmet blocked telepathy in ''Film/XMenFirstClass''.

*** Though being fair, [[spoiler: its not likely SHIELD will be able to do much with the pieces, any more than they did with Mjolnir.]]
*** As of ''Film/TheAvengers'', SHIELD researching the remains of the Destroyer, at least, is [[spoiler: confirmed. Furthermore, they've built a {{BFG}} using the tech and it's complete enough for Coulson to use it against Loki, though he claims not to know what it does.]]

*** Not to mention that the only reason they were holding him in the first place is because he broke into their base and started beating up their men. HE attacked THEM, and that probably weighed in heavily in his opinion of their response. Compared to Asgard's response to the Frost Giant intrusion, they were actually very merciful to Thor.
*** This, pretty much. Note that at several points in Thor's assault on the SHIELD facility, their soldiers were clearly carrying what were obviously weapons, but they continued trying to use nonlethal techniques against Thor, even when he was beating them senseless. When he reached Mjolnir and was paralyzed with despair after being unable to lift it, they captured him instead of killing him where he stood. And when Coulson was questioning Thor, he made it clear - in his own way - that he respected Thor's skills at besting his own men. That sense of honor, mercy, and restraint clearly left an impression on him.

*** They seem to be the kind of people who authorize their agents to "tase someone and watch Supernanny while they drool into the carpet." I'm thinking CTU from Series/TwentyFour at best and Section One from ''Series/LaFemmeNikita'' when they're sufficiently pissed off; protecting people through fear.
*** I really don't think one offhand, comical threat to Tony Stark, who is, let's face it, a {{jerkass}} is really the best thing to judge the whole organization by.
**** This basically. Thor is (when he's not kicking around their agents) extremely polite and respectful to them, unlike Tony Stark. Shield tends to be much nicer when dealing with polite characters like Thor or Captain America than wise-asses like Stark or Spider-Man. They only throw their weight around and act rude to Stark because he's very difficult to get to cooperate otherwise.
**** ^^ They ''seem'' like those kind of people? Based on what exactly? Did you even watch the movie?

*** Well, the power aura is possible. Otherwise, a shared delusion about being norse gods isn't ''that'' far fetched.

*** Yeah, with Thor killing frost giants by the hundreds, Odin ready to defend his realm, and the fact that they don't seem to have easy access to Asgard, it's likely that Laufey was bidding his time and trying to come up with the best means of attack. He was evil, not stupid.

*** I do agree that comic-Loki has pulled a lot more over the decades compared to movie-Loki's film and some tie-in comics, but I was referring specifically to the return of the Asgardians and post-rebirth Loki, when Odin was pretty much a dick to everyone. That said, the Leather Pants effect is relatively rare in the comic fandom (from what I've seen) while it's predominant in the movie fandom. It irritates me that so many movie-verse fics start off with "This is what would have happened if Odin had been a GOOD FATHER to Loki, who obviously needed support and understanding and didn't get it." What? There's not even evidence that Loki was the UnFavorite beyond his not being appointed King, which doesn't even seem personal: Most monarchies award the throne to the eldest child so long as they're not seriously incapable (mentally, physically, ect) and Thor ''is'' the older brother.
**** I agree it is annoying and they're making up facts that aren't in the movie so they can blame everybody but Loki for what Loki did. But that's pretty much textbook Leather Pants.
**** I'll take a shot at this. I think many of Loki's decisions were valid from the standpoint of political security in a monarchy. While he does have his emotional hangups and they are components of his motivation, he doesn't do much that's straight-up evil and I don't think he's even a bad king. He's really only guilty of not knowing that Thor was going to experience his hero epiphany and suddenly become a selfless, wise person. First, Thor's apparently about to step up to the throne, but Odin doesn't see that he's not ready for it. Odin says as much later, when Thor just has to get a vague notion from Loki to go to Jotunheim and start a friggin' war. So Loki sets up an interruption that'll highlight Thor's huge attitude problems. Good choice for Asgard. After Thor's banished to Midgard, Loki steps up to clean up the mess with Jotunheim. his first step as king in dealing with them is to draw their king out of his defenses with an offer he can't refuse: the chance to kill Odin. Loki instead kills their king, which in a monarchy is likely to set rival factions in Jotunheim against one another for the crown. Speaking of that particular problem, what transpires but several of Asgard's own warriors turn traitor to the realm in order to make an attempt to bring an exiled heir back to Asgard. What happens then? Either Loki hands control of the realm to Thor, who as far as he knows will send Asgard into a bloody melee with Jotunheim, or make a fight of it, trying to consolidate his power base and pit it against Thor's. He instead takes a third option and tries to take out Sif and the Warriors Three before they can get Thor back into Asgard to start a civil war. Like it or not, that's a good choice for Asgard too. When Thor interposes himself between the Destroyer and the insurgents, he has the option to just kill Thor and eliminate the threat entirely. Loki does not do this. Instead, Loki just slaps him hard enough to put him down for a while. Why not just toast the guy if Loki's such an evil bastard? Maybe he would risk too much public favor by assassinating his brother or maybe he actually cares about Thor. Either way, his plan is probably to get Thor out and down long enough to take out the insurgents. That's when everything goes to crap for that plan, since Thor had suddenly become worthy to be a god again. So now Loki has to choose between Thor's version of a war with Jotunheim (costly melee without any support from Odin) or the bifrost orbital beam cannon (zero Asgardian casualties). Then Thor shows up to screw that plan, so Loki just tries to keep him angry and busy until the space laser does its thing. Thor screws that plan too and Odin tells Loki he sucks. I don't know, but I think that's sort of a raw deal.
**** No, it's not at all. Loki is sympathetic, that's for sure. But nowhere in his motives or plan does it justify how far he took it. Loki is responsible for the murder of at least two innocent people, willing led assassin's to his defenseless father, then betrayed them too simply to look like a hero, nearly killing his mother in the process. Then, he visits Thor to basically say "Lulz, you killed dad. By the way, I'm totally gonna screw with that chick your in love with." For no other reason than to crush him. And his attempt to destroy Jotunheim is motivated to please Odn, and his own rejection of his heritage, not because he actually cared about Asgard. Hell, he's willing to commit genocide to please a father who ALREADY LOVES HIM. Loki actually got off fairly easy.
***** Loki does lie and say that Odin is dead because of Thor and his mother won't have anything to do with him but he didn't say anything about screwing with someone Thor was in love with. Partly this is because at this point Thor is not in love with anyone and partly because Loki isn't trying to make Thor think he's evil. He's trying to convince Thor to stay on Midgard forever.
**** Another part of the reason is because he's very easy to sympathize with right off the bat, where as Thor is a little too arrogant and, well, smashy in the beginning. While you're waiting for Thor to reach his full heroic potential so you can root for him, you slowly watch Loki's descent into evil (based mainly on mistakes and acts that were most likely better for Asgard as a whole) and it's near painful. Here's a guy that mainly wanted to be seen as an equal to his brother and gain his father's acceptance, when he learns that he's the type of "monster" he's always heard stories about. Now on top of the jealousy he gets a whole new heap of self loathing added to that. This all comes to a head at the end where it's hinted that [[spoiler: had Odin shown just a bit of pride for him he wouldn't have let go.]] Does this make his earlier, obviously devious actions okay? No, not really, but it's easy to see why people would find a connection with him, just as people do with any character with a tragic back story. For example, no one would call Jonathan Crane a good person either, but many people connect with his history of getting bullied and abused, though they in no way excuse his villainous actions. So not only did you find a connection with their story at some point, you then see them falling into the role of the villain and it's even worse because there's always that thought that they could have been so much ''better''. It's less that they ignore or excuse Loki's actions, but more the fact they can find common ground with such a flawed character because or in-spite of his actions.

*** So, in brief: DracoInLeatherPants + AudienceSurrogate + audience rejection of perceived BrainsEvilBrawnGood = "Murder, attempted genocide, and the destruction of your family is totally forgivable because you weren't praised enough as a child/your brother's friends never wanted to hang out with you. Despite the fact that your family, including your dad, loved you already, he should totally have been cool with all the lives you were going to destroy, and [[SarcasmMode his disappointment was totally uncalled-for.]] LET ME HUG YOU."
**** Not so much. I said "understand", not "justify". Evil's still evil. Loki needed to put on his big-boy pants and stop feeling sorry for himself.
*** We are fangirls, we don't need a logical reason!
**** What's this "we" you mention?
***** Yes, please don't say "we", not all Loki fans are without "logical reason" and don't try to justify shitty actions. When you start saying "we fangirls" you've grouped a whole lot of people who aren't idiots to look like idiots.
*** I feel as though looking for a logical reason is akin to MeasuringTheMarigolds: Worthy to attempt, but likely to attract accusations of "hating."

*** No, that makes perfect sense and jives with what we see in the movie. The original question wasn't about Loki's motives so much as it was about the fandom tendency to either exaggerate those motives by demonizing the rest of Asgard or to claim that Loki did absolutely nothing wrong to begin with, i.e. portraying him as a total Woobie who did nothing to deserve whatever karmic justice resulted. It's a bit bewildering since there ''were'' Loki fans before the movie, but the comicverse produced far less blatant examples of the above Leather Pants Effect. I'm going to blame the actor, who apparently is MrFanservice?
*** Yeah, Tom Hiddleston is mad sexy as Loki. But also, just like in real life, it takes a certain amount of maturity to love, or have sympathy for a person/character and still be able to acknowledge their faults. Loki is very sympathetic, very realateble, very much in need of a hug, but still very often in the wrong. This kind of denial happens all the time in real life - it shouldn't be terribly surprising when it crops up in fandom. Especially when the most vocal and aggressive segments of any fandom are rarely the most reasonable.
*** Good lord. [[VideoGame/FinalFantasyVII Loki is the genetically reconstructed child of Sephiroth and Cloud!]]
*** But being the ''re''constructed child implies there was an original. ... Damn you, the GogglesDoNothing! [[spoiler: inb4 someone explains his black hair by saying Zack's genes were in the mix.]]

*** Note that Loki's plan for putting Heimdall out of commission was "Use the Jotun's old planetary scale WMD on him personally." And this didn't kill Heimdall, it just incapacitated him for a while. I think that is a decent indication of power.

*** You could also say that trying to wage war solely because he likes to fight and not caring about how this war would affect both Asgard and Jotunheim is pretty greedy too.
*** I doubt Thor's actions could be described as "without provocation". A group of Jotuns broke into their Vault, killed the guards and tried to make off with the very artifact that allowed them to threaten other worlds in the first place. Don't forget that the Jotuns struck first, again.
*** For all Thor and the other Asgardians know, the three Jotun that snuck into Asgard are a splinter group of rebels, acting on their own without any approval from any legitimate government of Jotunheim. Before committing all of Asgard to a what was either a thawing of the Asgard/Jotunheim Cold War or the Second World War equivalent, it might have been a good idea for Thor and Co. to, you know, ask questions (politely) or search in Asgard for how the Jotun entered in the first place. This troper was under the impression that Heimdal let the group through he Bifrost to investigate, not start a war. Even if the Jotun [[CycleOfRevenge "struck first"]], Thor was over-escalating, making him both greedy for glory/fame, vain in his callous treatment of [[WhatMeasureIsANonhuman life]], and cruel in his overwhelming desire for war.
*** I think that's going a little too far. The fact of the matter is, Thor was overreacting to the incursion... but Odin was severely ''under''reacting. Odin could have at least demanded an explanation from Laufey. Thor does suggest going to Jotunheim and kicking some ass rather than all that other stuff... but wise old Odin, the one that calls him all those names later, didn't suggest any of that other stuff either, he was just "Nope, they're dead, clearly nothing to worry about, let's pretend it never happened." which is, arguably, an even worse approach. (One wonders what, if anything, he said to the families of the guards? "Well, we killed those specific frost giants that killed them, so you're ordered not to feel bad about it.") So, again, the best explanation is that Thor and Odin are being extremely like each other throughout these scenes... in this scene they're both going too far to opposite extremes, in the later argument scene they're just snapping hurtful insults at each other.

*** This makes sense, especially as he shows {{Angrish}} not long afterward.

*** Also, he couldn't get near the Brifost.

*** Kenneth Branagh said, that he stole that scene from a film about the Dreyfus Affair.

*** Loki probably brought the mythology book he found it in to Thor. "Look, brother. See what ridiculous stories Midgard has thought up." "What will they think of next, Loki? That I am Freya?" "Actually...look here."
*** And Sif is Thor's wife in the real myths. We can probably assume the myths are a bit different in the Marvel Universe and don't contain these "spoilers".

*** Confirmed in ThorTheDarkWorld. After helping bringing peace to his home realm, he decides to remain there for a while.

*** We see Jotunheim from orbit when the Bifrost hits it. It looked like an ice world, or at least a Class-M world going through an ice age.