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** If you are completely heart-broken and weary of remaining in Middle-Earth, then standard Elf procedure is to go to the Grey Havens, take a ship, and sail to the Undying Lands in the West.


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** The tombs of the Ringwraiths are shown, and they aren't anywhere near Mirkwood. In Dol Guldur there are statues of them, and for some reason the Witch King seems to be hanging out inside the statue. Maybe he feels at home there?

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[[folder: The Nazgûl]]
* In the film, the Necromancer appears to raise the Nazgûl from tombs. Hang on... they never actually died, right? So why were they inside tombs? Ones in Mirkwood, even! If they did "die", it would have been at the War of the Last Alliance, so who dragged their nonexistent bodies from Mordor to Mirkwood?
[[/folder]]

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* The extended cut of Battle of the Five Armies gives us the answer: Gandalf did have Narya with him at Dol Guldur, but it was protected by some kind of glamour. An orc tries to cut off Gandalf’s finger on Sauron’s orders and gets blown up by Galadriel for his trouble.

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** ^ This exactly. As it is, Saruman is very much on a 'wait and see' course, and he has enough pull with the rest of the White Council to make that policy if the only thing he has to act on is Gandalf's suspicion that someone is in Dol Guldur. But in getting "caught," Gandalf forces them to come and rescue him and thereby see for themselves that it is, in fact, Sauron, both jolting them out of their own complacency and getting them to punch Sauron in the nose.


** Note that Saruman said that Sauron can't take ''physical'' form. He said nothing about humanoid. He's just a spirit in ''The Hobbit'', just like he was in the LotR-trilogy.

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** Note that Saruman said that Sauron can't take ''physical'' form. He said nothing about humanoid. He's just a spirit in ''The Hobbit'', just like he was in the LotR-trilogy.[=LotR=]-trilogy.



** I disagree that "he should know Sauron is stronger than him" - honestly according to everything in the first trilogy, Sauron isn't strong at all, and doesn't act directly - his powers are essentially remote-viewing, and willing other forces of evil to act. Sauron in Desolation demonstrates FAR greater power than he demonstrates in the LOTR trilogy and there's really no explanation for why he gets weaker given - best guess is something Galadriel did in their contest of wills weakened him greatly.
** I don't see how one could ''possibly'' judge Sauron's strength in direct combat from the LOTR film trilogy, because we never see him in such a situation there (outside the prologue). This is more an issue of Sauron's personality than anything; his nature is to lurk in the shadows and use others as his tools as much as possible, not to go out fighting himself (taking the Legendarium as a whole into account, the number of times he's actually depicted as fighting can be counted on one hand, and are always in response to having lost almost all of his minions). In LOTR he doesn't fight not because he's somehow weaker, but because he's got nine Nazgul and hundreds of thousands of men and orcs to do that for him; in ''The Hobbit'', he's responding to what amounts to an invasion of his own home when he's already sent his army away. It's a question of circumstance, not of power. Also, going by the books, keep in mind that the entire Dol Guldur battle was a feint to make the White Council think they'd beaten him, leaving him free to return to Mordor and bring his ''true'' strength to bear...

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** I disagree that "he should know Sauron is stronger than him" - honestly according to everything in the first trilogy, Sauron isn't strong at all, and doesn't act directly - his powers are essentially remote-viewing, and willing other forces of evil to act. Sauron in Desolation demonstrates FAR greater power than he demonstrates in the LOTR [=LOTR=] trilogy and there's really no explanation for why he gets weaker given - best guess is something Galadriel did in their contest of wills weakened him greatly.
** I don't see how one could ''possibly'' judge Sauron's strength in direct combat from the LOTR [=LOTR=] film trilogy, because we never see him in such a situation there (outside the prologue). This is more an issue of Sauron's personality than anything; his nature is to lurk in the shadows and use others as his tools as much as possible, not to go out fighting himself (taking the Legendarium as a whole into account, the number of times he's actually depicted as fighting can be counted on one hand, and are always in response to having lost almost all of his minions). In LOTR [=LOTR=] he doesn't fight not because he's somehow weaker, but because he's got nine Nazgul and hundreds of thousands of men and orcs to do that for him; in ''The Hobbit'', he's responding to what amounts to an invasion of his own home when he's already sent his army away. It's a question of circumstance, not of power. Also, going by the books, keep in mind that the entire Dol Guldur battle was a feint to make the White Council think they'd beaten him, leaving him free to return to Mordor and bring his ''true'' strength to bear...



* Is there any significance to the fact that all the LOTR credits songs were performed by women, and that all ''Film/TheHobbit'' credits songs were sung by men? I'm thinking, some sort of FridgeBrilliance that hasn't yet hit me. Any ideas?

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* Is there any significance to the fact that all the LOTR [=LOTR=] credits songs were performed by women, and that all ''Film/TheHobbit'' credits songs were sung by men? I'm thinking, some sort of FridgeBrilliance that hasn't yet hit me. Any ideas?



*** Tauriel may be strong but an elf's love runs far deeper than any race's, so much that they can die of extreme grief caused by a broken heart, The last scene shows her hunched over Kili's body in extreme emotional pain, ("If this is love, I do not want it. Take it from me, please. Why does it hurt so much?") and unlike Thranduil and Elrond she doesn't have any familial ties, obligations or kin to distract her from her mourning. It's not a stretch of imagination to say she would eventually [[DeathByDespair succumb to grief]]. [[WildMassGuessing That could explain]] why there's no mention of her in LOTR.

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*** Tauriel may be strong but an elf's love runs far deeper than any race's, so much that they can die of extreme grief caused by a broken heart, The last scene shows her hunched over Kili's body in extreme emotional pain, ("If this is love, I do not want it. Take it from me, please. Why does it hurt so much?") and unlike Thranduil and Elrond she doesn't have any familial ties, obligations or kin to distract her from her mourning. It's not a stretch of imagination to say she would eventually [[DeathByDespair succumb to grief]]. [[WildMassGuessing That could explain]] why there's no mention of her in LOTR.[=LOTR=].


[[folder:White Council business]]
* Why doesn't Gandalf explain the blade was found ''at'' Dol Guldur? Saruman seems to think the two events are unrelated.
** To me it seems that Gandalf did make it pretty clear. Saruman just doesn't trust the reliability of the eyewitness, Radagast, who in his words "uses too much mushrooms". The finding place is also not nearly as important as the question of whether the dagger actually is a genuine Morgul blade or not.
** Saruman might also be intentionally acting as an ObstructiveBureaucrat to disguise his true thoughts and intentions.
** In the books, Saruman is well aware at this time that Sauron is the Necromancer and is searching for the One Ring. He objects to the White Council taking action because he's hoping for the Ring to show itself so that he can claim it for himself.
** In the books the rest of the White Council also know about the Necromancer's true identity, at this point. There really isn't evidence about what Saruman knows either way in the movie, and it's likely to stay that way; the most likely way that Peter Jackson is going to take the Saruman-angle is to have moments where Saruman seems to be obstructing the Council for no good reason, but does nothing that could directly be interpreted as a sign of treachery.
** Remember as well that, as a prequel, the movie must be coherent with the Lord of the Rings. That means, for example, that Gandalf will not realize the nature of Bilbo's ring yet, and that Saruman will not show any visible interest in getting the Ring for himself or allying with Sauron: if he did, Gandalf would have never gone by his own will to seek Saruman's help at the begining of that movie.
** Don't Morgul blades disintegrate in the sunlight? The sun was rising during that scene, yet the blade remained intact.
** In the books, yes. But in the movies a Morgul blade dissolved in the dark of the night when Aragorn touched it. Radagast, Gandalf, and Elrond are all powerful magic users. They may presumably know how to touch a morgul blade without causing it to disintegrate. Aragorn not so much.
** Radagast didn't touch it when he disarmed the Witch-King, and both he and Gandalf kept it wrapped up. Presumably the touch of the living on their hilts destroys such ghost-wielded weapons.
** In the ''Fellowship'' movie, the tip of the blade that Aragorn picks up has already broken off in Frodo. The blade that Radagast recovers is intact. That might explain why one crumbled and the other did not; the one that stabbed Frodo had already done its dirty work.
** It's said that the blades break apart and disintergate after they've been used to pierce flesh. Since Radagast stopped his attack the Blade wasn't able to break apart.
* Another thing: so is Saruman evil yet or not?
** If you go by book canon, yes. As discussed above, he's trying to find the Ring for himself (in the Histories somewhere, it says he has all Isildur's jewellery and personal effects taken away to Orthanc; but by then Gollum had the ring). However, there's no suggestion he's planning (or even pretending) to cooperate with Sauron instead of trying to usurp the evil empire.
** There's no actual hint in the movie that he's turned evil yet rather than just being a disagreeable dick, but they played up the disagreeable dick so much that it sure looks like standard Hollywood "evil guy necessarily acts like an asshole to make it obvious to the audience that he's evil", but I'm really not sure if that was the intent or not.
** [[WordOfSaintPaul For what it's worth]] in the interviews on the extras ChristopherLee seemed to believe he was still basically on the side of the good guys at this point, though already heading down a bad road.

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[[folder:White Council business]]

[[folder:Bird's Nest]]
* Why doesn't Gandalf explain the blade was found ''at'' Dol Guldur? Saruman seems to think the two events are unrelated.
** To me it seems that Gandalf did make it pretty clear. Saruman just doesn't trust the reliability of the eyewitness, Radagast, who in his words "uses too much mushrooms". The finding place is also not nearly as important as the question of whether the dagger actually is a genuine Morgul blade or not.
** Saruman might also be intentionally acting as an ObstructiveBureaucrat to disguise his true thoughts and intentions.
** In the books, Saruman is well aware at this time that Sauron is the Necromancer and is searching for the One Ring. He objects to the White Council taking action because he's hoping for the Ring to show itself so that he can claim it for himself.
** In the books the rest of the White Council also know about the Necromancer's true identity, at this point. There really isn't evidence about what Saruman knows either way in the movie, and it's likely to stay that way; the most likely way that Peter Jackson is going to take the Saruman-angle is to have moments where Saruman seems to be obstructing the Council for no good reason, but does nothing that could directly be interpreted as a sign of treachery.
** Remember as well that, as a prequel, the movie must be coherent with the Lord of the Rings. That means, for example, that Gandalf will not realize the nature of Bilbo's ring yet, and that Saruman will not show any visible interest in getting the Ring for himself or allying with Sauron: if he did, Gandalf would have never gone by his own will to seek Saruman's help at the begining of that movie.
** Don't Morgul blades disintegrate in the sunlight? The sun was rising during that scene, yet the blade remained intact.
** In the books, yes. But in the movies a Morgul blade dissolved in the dark of the night when Aragorn touched it. Radagast, Gandalf, and Elrond are all powerful magic users. They may presumably know how to touch a morgul blade without causing it to disintegrate. Aragorn not so much.
**
Radagast didn't touch it when he disarmed the Witch-King, and both he and Gandalf kept it wrapped up. Presumably the touch of the living on their hilts destroys such ghost-wielded weapons.
** In the ''Fellowship'' movie, the tip of the blade that Aragorn picks up
has already broken off in Frodo. The blade that Radagast recovers is intact. That might explain why one crumbled and the other did not; the one that stabbed Frodo had already done its dirty work.
** It's said that the blades break apart and disintergate after they've been used to pierce flesh. Since Radagast stopped
a bird's nest on his attack the Blade wasn't able to break apart.
* Another thing: so
head, which is Saruman evil yet or not?
** If you go by book canon, yes. As discussed above, he's trying to find the Ring for himself (in the Histories somewhere, it says he has all Isildur's jewellery and personal effects taken away to Orthanc; but by then Gollum had the ring). However, there's no suggestion he's planning (or even pretending) to cooperate with Sauron instead of trying to usurp the evil empire.
** There's no actual hint in the movie that he's turned evil yet rather than just being a disagreeable dick, but they played up the disagreeable dick so much that it sure looks like standard Hollywood "evil guy necessarily acts like an asshole to make it obvious to the audience that he's evil", but I'm really not sure if that was the intent or not.
** [[WordOfSaintPaul For what it's worth]] in the interviews on the extras ChristopherLee seemed to believe he was still basically on
leaking bird shit down the side of his face and beard. Why is the bird shitting in its own nest? Does it get trapped under his hat? If so, why would the bird willingly use that nest?
** Coz birds do that? I've owned four birds, and they shit anywhere, Including their nests (Especially their nests). As for why they stay there, they like the company? The fact that being near him pretty much is the safest bet from predators? And he's no doubt got
good guys at this point, though already heading down a bad road.access to food if they need it?
** They actually shit straight out of their nest. They just don't bother to go further than simply stick their backsides right outside the nest, leading the crap fall exactly where you see.
** Birds occasionally do make nests on things that move, like boats or seldom-driven trucks. So long as the vehicle moves slowly enough for them to keep up with it, or returns to its usual berth/parking space before the nestlings get too hungry, they won't abandon the nest.



[[folder:Sauron gone]]
* Saruman claims in the film that Sauron is gone for good. Weren't the Istari specifically sent in the Third Age to combat Sauron? So, why didn't Gandalf just subtly point out during their council that, if they really were as safe as Saruman was claiming, they would have received word that it was time to depart for home by now?
** This is, a little simplied, what Saruman was saying in the books. It's wishful thinking in their part, and they all would want to be right. Though notably Saruman's declaration contains a caveat that he was actively speaking against in the books: that ''if'' the One Ring is found, Sauron will be a threat again. In the books he did his best to convince the Council that Andúin had taken the Ring all the way to the Sea, and that it lies unreachable for everybody until the lands and seas shift.
** Ah, so he isn't saying "Sauron is dead and we're safe forever (so our job is technically done)", he's saying "Sauron couldn't possibly be growing in power and influence again without his Ring, which all evidence points to him not having yet, so the trouble you see must be unrelated to him"?
** I believe it's closer to "Sauron can't truly revive without the One Ring, and if he had the One Ring he would already be openly displaying himself".

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[[folder:Sauron gone]]
[[folder:Sauron's form]]
* In ''The Lord of the Rings'', Saruman claims in the film says that Sauron is gone for good. Weren't the Istari specifically sent in the Third Age to combat Sauron? So, why didn't Gandalf just subtly point out during their council that, if they really were as safe as Saruman was claiming, they would have received word that it was time to depart for home by now?
** This is, a little simplied, what Saruman was saying in the books. It's wishful thinking in their part, and they all would want to be right. Though notably Saruman's declaration contains a caveat that he was actively speaking against in the books: that ''if'' the One Ring is found, Sauron will be a threat again. In the books he did
cannot assume his best to convince the Council that Andúin had taken the Ring all the way to the Sea, and that it lies unreachable for everybody until the lands and seas shift.
** Ah, so he isn't saying "Sauron is dead and we're safe forever (so our job is technically done)", he's saying "Sauron couldn't possibly be growing in power and influence again without his Ring, which all evidence points to him not having yet, so the trouble you see must be unrelated to him"?
** I believe it's closer to "Sauron can't truly revive
[[BlackKnight humanoid form]] without the One Ring, and if he had the One Ring - which is supported by the fact that he would already only appears as a giant flaming eyeball, but Radagast's encounter with him in ''The Hobbit'' shows he's [[LivingShadow well on his way to doing so]]. Why is Jackson contradicting himself?
** We have yet to see the White Council fight with him. It's possible that he has the ability to assume a humanoid form ''now'', but his defeat (which we have not seen yet) changed that.
** From what we see in ''Unexpected Journey'', the Necromancer manifests as a humanoid figure of smoke and shadow- not exactly a ''physical'' form ''per se''. In ''Fellowship'', Saruman says that Sauron can't take a physical form yet, not that he can't manifest at all (otherwise, he wouldn't even
be openly displaying himself".able to control his empire).
** Key words: "Saruman says". It may well be that Saruman, who is a traitor, is simply lying about Sauron's ability to manifest.
** Gollum when he was interrogated in Mordor was said to have seen him himself, so perhaps he can take a seeable form yet only as a shadow form made of smoke, he can't take a physical form and interact just yet since he lacks the ring.
** Note that Saruman said that Sauron can't take ''physical'' form. He said nothing about humanoid. He's just a spirit in ''The Hobbit'', just like he was in the LotR-trilogy.
** We see this explicitly in ''Desolation of Smaug''- the Necromancer goes through at least three forms during his battle with Gandalf (cloud of shadow, image of Sauron's armored form, Eye of Sauron), but none of them appears entirely solid or physically present.



[[folder:Bird's Nest]]
* Radagast has a bird's nest on his head, which is leaking bird shit down the side of his face and beard. Why is the bird shitting in its own nest? Does it get trapped under his hat? If so, why would the bird willingly use that nest?
** Coz birds do that? I've owned four birds, and they shit anywhere, Including their nests (Especially their nests). As for why they stay there, they like the company? The fact that being near him pretty much is the safest bet from predators? And he's no doubt got good access to food if they need it?
** They actually shit straight out of their nest. They just don't bother to go further than simply stick their backsides right outside the nest, leading the crap fall exactly where you see.
** Birds occasionally do make nests on things that move, like boats or seldom-driven trucks. So long as the vehicle moves slowly enough for them to keep up with it, or returns to its usual berth/parking space before the nestlings get too hungry, they won't abandon the nest.

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[[folder:Bird's Nest]]
[[folder:Glowing Blades]]
* Radagast has a bird's nest on his head, which is leaking bird shit down the side of his face and beard. Why In ''Film/TheLordOfTheRings'', Sting is the bird shitting only Elvish blade to glow blue in its own nest? Does the presence of orcs. Fine, since it get trapped under his hat? If so, why would the bird willingly use have taken extra time to explain Glamdring's glow (and possibly Haldir's troops in ''The Two Towers''.) However, in ''Film/TheHobbit'', Elrond specifically states that nest?
** Coz birds do that? I've owned four birds,
both Glamdring and Orcrist would glow blue in the presence of orcs and goblins (and, by implication, Bilbo's as-yet-unnamed blade would too). But in practice, Bilbo's short sword shines brighter than a lightsaber, brighter than it ever did in ''Film/TheLordOfTheRings'', and Orcrist and Glamdring never do. At best, they shit anywhere, Including their nests (Especially their nests). As for why have a faint gleam that looks more like a trick of the eyes than a real glow, even in the goblin kingdom where they stay there, they should've shone like torches. What gives?
** In
the company? The fact film Elrond never says Glamdring and Orcrist would glow. It's Gandalf who says that being near him pretty much is the safest bet from predators? And to Bilbo, and he's no doubt got good access only referring to food if Sting. One might wonder why the two others, having the same origin and being legendary weapons, do not glow, as they need it?
** They
do in the book, but no one actually shit straight out ever claims they ''should'' glow. So it's technically not a plot hole. Also had Glamdring glowed now, it would raise the question of their nest. why it no longer does in ''The Lord of the Rings''. Presumably the film makers decided to make the two sword consistent, and keep Sting the way it was, since its the only one whose glow is ever relevant to the plot.
** Agreed with the above. Glamdring and Orcist glowed in the book, but the directors/editors/producers/etc. in [=LOTR=] forgot that Glamdring glowed too until it was too late to change it, since they were focused on Sting. Eventually they decided that only Sting glowed, thus making it unique.
They probably just don't bother to go further than simply stick their backsides right outside the nest, leading the crap fall exactly where you see.
** Birds occasionally do make nests on things that move, like boats or seldom-driven trucks. So long as the vehicle moves slowly enough for them
wanted to keep Sting unique.
** Gandalf specifically says, "This is an Elvish blade, '''which means''' it glows blue in the presence of orcs..." If he doesn't mean to imply that all elvish blades glow, that's pretty poor writing on the screenwriter's part.
** Oh no, a character said something and it's automatically assumed that it's absolute truth and the author's opinion word for word instead of the character maybe, perhaps, simply being mistaken. ''That'' is pretty poor reading/watching on the reader's/viewer's part.
** Yeah, because it's not like you would expect the character consistently shown to be one of the wisest beings in Middle Earth to be ''right'' about something!
** Could be FridgeBrilliance: As Sting isn't large enough to have been a primary weapon for an elf warrior, it makes sense that it would be given a secondary property -- detection of orcs/goblins -- that would compliment the powers of the orc-''killing'' sword which a dagger like Sting was originally paired
up with.
** Except that the elves in the books saw no problem
with it, or returns to its usual berth/parking space before having Glamdring and Orcrist glow. It's not like it detracts from the nestlings get combat effectiveness of the blade, and if it did you wouldn't choose another blade to give the 'orc proximity sensor' property to, you'd pick something like a ring that you wouldn't have to devote another hand to.
** Which is really irrelevant; the movie is a different continuity, and in that continuity the elves' blades in general do not glow around Orcs. Only Sting does.
** You say Sting glows brighter? I didn't notice. But if it did, it's probably because so many years have passed and the light has dulled. The batteries, I mean, uh . . . mystical elf magic obviously doesn't last that long, and so it dulls with time.
** When Gandalf draws his sword in the Goblin caves their king comments in terror on how bright it glows, even though we in the audience see nothing.
** Jackson & Co. stated that the swords looked
too hungry, much like light sabers and it didn't look good. Since the medium of film focuses on visuals... it makes sense they'd cut something that looked weird.
** Sure Gandalf says Elven blades glow but just because elves make blades that glow around orcs doesn't mean
they won't abandon make ''all'' their blades glow. Indeed that would be rather a problem in battle; a whole army's worth of glowing swords would make it almost impossible to see the nest.enemy coming and indeed those three swords are the only ones the Professor mentions glowing anywhere in either book. So only some Elven blades glow. In the book that includes Orcist and Glamdring, in the films it doesn't. Not that big of a deal. As for the Goblin kings screaming about how Gandalf's sword is glowing it is reflecting about a thousand torches at the time.



[[folder:Sauron's form]]
* In ''The Lord of the Rings'', Saruman says that Sauron cannot assume his [[BlackKnight humanoid form]] without the One Ring - which is supported by the fact that he only appears as a giant flaming eyeball, but Radagast's encounter with him in ''The Hobbit'' shows he's [[LivingShadow well on his way to doing so]]. Why is Jackson contradicting himself?
** We have yet to see the White Council fight with him. It's possible that he has the ability to assume a humanoid form ''now'', but his defeat (which we have not seen yet) changed that.
** From what we see in ''Unexpected Journey'', the Necromancer manifests as a humanoid figure of smoke and shadow- not exactly a ''physical'' form ''per se''. In ''Fellowship'', Saruman says that Sauron can't take a physical form yet, not that he can't manifest at all (otherwise, he wouldn't even be able to control his empire).
** Key words: "Saruman says". It may well be that Saruman, who is a traitor, is simply lying about Sauron's ability to manifest.
** Gollum when he was interrogated in Mordor was said to have seen him himself, so perhaps he can take a seeable form yet only as a shadow form made of smoke, he can't take a physical form and interact just yet since he lacks the ring.
** Note that Saruman said that Sauron can't take ''physical'' form. He said nothing about humanoid. He's just a spirit in ''The Hobbit'', just like he was in the LotR-trilogy.
** We see this explicitly in ''Desolation of Smaug''- the Necromancer goes through at least three forms during his battle with Gandalf (cloud of shadow, image of Sauron's armored form, Eye of Sauron), but none of them appears entirely solid or physically present.

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[[folder:Sauron's form]]
[[folder:Sting as a warning system]]
* In ''The I've had this query ever since Lord of the Rings'', Saruman says that Sauron cannot assume his [[BlackKnight humanoid form]] without the One Ring - Rings. Sting is a sword which is supported glows blue when Orcs / Goblins are close. Thorin's company knew they were haunted by Orcs. And even if they didn't, they at least knew Goblins were unpleasant and should better be avoided. So why sheath Sting at all? Why not have Bilbo's job be Orc / Goblin detector and just keep holding it unsheathed, and whenever it glows blue inform the fact gang? The sequence always seems to go: Somebody notices Sting is glowing blue, oops, too late, Orcs are already all over us.
** Because you don't run around with a gun in your hand and your finger on the trigger either, do you? Sting is a weapon. A sharp weapon. And for the one time
that he only appears it warns you of Orcs, there's 99 times that you're climbing over rocks, riding horses, or jumping from stone to stone where having a naked blade out is a ''bad idea''.
** They '''could''' still use it better
as a giant flaming eyeball, but Radagast's encounter sensor by poking a small hole on the sheath, so a little bit of the blade's side is always exposed. It wouldn't compromise the sheath itself (specially considering that we're talking about an elven dagger with him in ''The Hobbit'' shows he's [[LivingShadow well thousands or years on his way it, it's probably quite resistant to doing so]]. Why is Jackson contradicting himself?
** We
natural erosion), and it would allow a little bit of light to shine through. Then all they have yet to see do is keep an eye on it.
** But even
the White Council fight with him. It's possible little bit of light in the above scenario might be much more visible to the huge and dark-adjusted eyes of the goblins, than to the dwarves and the hobbit; and therefore something they'd want to keep hidden, so as to avoid drawing their pursuers to them. And my recollection was that he has initially, they didn't realize they were in the ability to assume a humanoid form ''now'', but his defeat (which we have not seen yet) changed that.
** From what we see in ''Unexpected Journey'', the Necromancer manifests as a humanoid figure of smoke
Goblin King's territory; and shadow- not exactly a ''physical'' form ''per se''. In later, they were far too busy fleeing to stop and periodically check whether Bilbo's sword was glowing. (I also recall in ''Fellowship'', Saruman says nobody thought to check Sting either, until they were at Balin's tomb and the Orcs were already on the way. This is also TruthInTelevision, like not checking if you have your keys until after the door has locked behind you.)
** Does the film continuity ever establish the range on the orc sensor? Since it was made in Gondolin, a blade
that Sauron can't take tells you there're orcs within ten miles tells you they're up to something unusual. In the Misty Mountains, knowing there are orcs within ten miles or so is practically a physical form yet, certainty.
*** Sting's warning seems to be meant
not that he can't manifest at all (otherwise, he wouldn't even be able to control his empire).
** Key words: "Saruman says". It
for "orcs may well be that Saruman, who is a traitor, is simply lying in range of our city," but for "orcs are about Sauron's ability to manifest.
**
threaten me personally." Bofur has an entire conversation with Bilbo and only notices the glow at the end, when the goblins are about to spring their trap. Later, the glow goes out when Gollum kills the one goblin in range, even though the rest of Goblin-Town isn't that far away. Likewise, in ''Fellowship'', it's not certain when he was interrogated in Mordor was said to have seen him himself, so perhaps he can take a seeable form yet only as a shadow form made of smoke, he can't take a physical form and interact Sting starts glowing, but by the time Aragorn notices it, the Uruk-hai are just yet since he lacks around the ring.
** Note that Saruman said that Sauron can't take ''physical'' form. He said nothing about humanoid. He's just a spirit in ''The Hobbit'', just like he was in the LotR-trilogy.
** We see this explicitly in ''Desolation of Smaug''- the Necromancer goes through at least three forms during his battle with Gandalf (cloud of shadow, image of Sauron's armored form, Eye of Sauron), but none of them appears entirely solid or physically present.
corner.



[[folder:Youngest Dwarf]]
* Why did they show Ori's face after the Goblin King ordered the youngest killed? We can assume that he is one of the youngest, or that he's just plain horrified, but why him in particular? Unless Fíli and Kíli's ages were changed for the movie (which doesn't seem to be the case) they would be the ones to show the strongest reaction.
** The dwarves ages were changed around for the film. It is explicitly stated in film materials that Ori is the youngest, followed by Kíli and Fíli. Other age changes can also be assumed by physical appearance and behavior (i.e. Balin seems to be cast as 'oldest' and mentor to Thorin, who's actually the oldest) and appearance in flashback scenes (Thorin and Balin were youths/children during Smaug's attack; some other dwarves appear in Azanulbizar despite having been too young).
*** Indeed, and all of this is in service to something the books tend to be a bit wanting on... characterization. Having Thorin be an adult during Smaug's assault means he's losing a way of life that he's known for years rather than being a dimly-held childhood memory. (It also helps with the idea of the assault on Moria being relatively soon after and Thorin being an adult to take part.) Balin being older than him allows him to have that mentor role so that Thorin can have a surrogate father figure who's showing concern for him personally, as family, rather than merely respect as their king.

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[[folder:Youngest Dwarf]]
* Why did they show Ori's face after
[[folder:Gandalf's reasons for starting the Goblin King ordered the youngest killed? We can assume journey]]
* I know
that he is in the book, Gandalf sent the dwarves and Bilbo on their journey to keep Smaug and Sauron from assisting and allying with one of another. In the youngest, or film, Gandalf did not realize that he's just plain horrified, but why him Sauron has made a foothold in particular? Unless Fíli Dol Guldur yet so what is his motivation for sending Thorin and Kíli's ages were changed for the movie (which Co. on this quest?
** Gandalf
doesn't seem yet know that Sauron is active in Mirkwood, but he ''does'' know that Sauron is still out there somewhere and will eventually try to be return to power. Wizards (and elves, for that matter) play the case) long game.
** Better see the film again. Gandalf did not "send" the dwarves to the Lonely Mountain, it was their own idea and
they would be have gone anyway, with or without Gandalf, with or without the ones to show help or blessing of TheOmniscientCouncilOfVagueness in Rivendell.
** Thorin was
the strongest reaction.
** The dwarves ages were changed around
one who wanted to reclaim Erebor and kill Smaug; Gandalf thought it was a good idea because of the possibility of Smaug allying with Sauron and so put his support behind Thorin's expedition, going so far as to choose their burglar for them. From Thorin's perspective the film. It is explicitly stated in film materials that Ori is quest was all his and Gandalf just helped out; from the youngest, followed by Kíli and Fíli. Other age changes can also be assumed by physical appearance and behavior (i.e. Balin seems to be cast as 'oldest' and mentor to Thorin, who's actually perspective of most of the oldest) and appearance in flashback scenes (Thorin and Balin were youths/children during Smaug's attack; some other dwarves appear in Azanulbizar despite having been too young).
*** Indeed, and all
Wise (and Sauron) it would look much more like a piece Gandalf has put into play; I think Gandalf himself would think of this is in service to it as seeing something already in motion (or about to be in motion) and greasing the wheels for it.
** Even without any prospect of Smaug allying with Sauron there are very good reasons for Gandalf supporting the quest given he suspects Sauron's imminent resurgence - Erebor is perhaps the most impenetrable stronghold in Rhovanion and the dwarves are some of the hardiest and most tenacious of the free peoples; returning them to their homeland and prosperity will greatly strengthen the region when war inevitably comes - it will certainly help to block Sauron's armies from passing north of Mirkwood, creating a barrier right from the Grey Mountains to the sea. Gandalf comments in
the books tend to be a bit wanting on... characterization. Having Thorin be an adult (probably The Quest for Erebor) how the War of the Ring wasn't won solely on the fields of Pelennor, but also outside the gates of Erebor and other locations - just as Gandalf rallies Rohan and Gondor during Smaug's assault means the war itself, here he's losing a way of life that he's known rallying the dwarves and preparing them for years rather than being a dimly-held childhood memory. (It the impending conflict.
** There is
also helps with the idea good and sufficient reason just in getting rid of the assault dragon, one of the most powerful creatures on Moria being relatively soon after and Thorin being the planet, a beast of unimaginable viciousness which burns entire realms just ForTheEvulz. Whether it did or didn't ally itself with anyone else, there's no telling when it might decide to go on a new rampage, or where. So, if there's an adult opposite trope to take part.) Balin being older than him allows him to have ForTheEvulz, part of Gandalf's motivation is that mentor role so that Thorin can have a surrogate father figure who's showing concern for him personally, as family, rather than merely respect as their king.(ForTheGoodz?).
** ForGreatJustice!



[[folder:Eagle drop-off]]
* Why did the Eagles leave the party at the top of a tall, difficult-to-get-down-from rock formation?
** Because they are eagles and think like eagles. If you rescue a dog in the street and want to protect him, you would take him home, even when your home is not what the street dog is used to. Same for the eagles: they rescued the dwarfs, and took them home for the moment. Then Gandalf will be more precise on where do they want to go.
** Because the eagles want to give the dwarves and Bilbo and Gandalf protection from the bloodthirsty, revenge-seeking goblins and wargs on the ground below while they fetch dinner.
** It's not difficult to climb down, the Carrock has steps going down and they are even visible in the film.
** Better yet, why didn't the Eagles take them to the Lonely Mountain? It seemed that at most it would be a two hour flight for them.
** The books give a few reasons: ''Literature/TheHobbit'' tells that the Eagles fear woodsmen and other people who would shoot them down to defend their sheep, while ''Literature/TheLordOfTheRings'' gives an even more pragmatic reason, that for all their size and strength, the Eagles are still flesh and blood, and carrying large burdens like people is a serious strain, and they physically can't carry them for more than a few miles without exhausting themselves.
** Did you miss the part about the ''Dragon'' that lives in the Lonely Mountain? The eagles have an ample. fire-breathing reason to avoid the place like the plague.
** Plus, the eagles aren't necessarily at liberty to travel that far from the mountain range where they live. They probably have nestlings to care for and territories to defend.
** The company was on the eastern side of the Misty Mountains when the eagles picked them up. Assuming Peter Jackson is still going to have them meet Beorn, the eagles dropped them off prior to the western edge of Mirkwood. The distance from there to Erebor is about twice the distance the eagles had already carried them, which had already taken them several hours judging by the passage of the sun in the sky.

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[[folder:Eagle drop-off]]
[[folder:Preparing against dragon attacks]]
* Why did the Eagles leave the party at the top of a tall, difficult-to-get-down-from rock formation?
** Because they are eagles and think like eagles.
Related question: If you rescue know dragons are a dog thing that exists in your world, and you're obsessed with your gold, shouldn't you have an anti-dragon defense plan set up for your gold stash? Seems like some ballista or weighted nets or something could have been set up.
** Dragons were very rare after the War of Wrath where Morgoth was thrown to the Outer Void, and Great Dragons even more so. Smaug belongs to the latter category and is believed to be the LastOfHisKind. In short, dragons were a distant rumour as far as Erebor was concerned, something that was a problem
in the street distant North and want East, not at their own doorstep. Besides, they had excellent defenses that could have held entire armies at bay. Since no-one alive had experienced an actual dragon attack, at least one as terrible as Smaug's, they were thoroughly unprepared for the real thing.
** With something like Smaug, anti-dragon defenses can best be summed up as "pray a dragon doesn't notice you."
** This, pretty much. What anti-dragon defenses could there be? Erebor was already about as hardened and impenetrable as it could get, on the defense side. On the offense side, weapons large enough
to protect him, you hurt most dragons would take him home, be in the "siege weaponry" size category, which for people at their level of development would have been too slow to arm and aim to do much good against a dragon.
** ''The Desolation of Smaug'' revealed there were anti-dragon defenses already in place when Smaug attacked, namely Dwarven windlass crossbows and black arrows. Unfortunately for Dale and Erebor, Smaug was too fast and too tough for the crossbows to be effective, and the black arrows were few to come by.
** The windlance was a little more than just a crossbow. It was basically a ballista, and the black arrow was a high power ballista bolt. It's said that dragon hide is so tough that anything but a direct hit from one of those would be completely ineffective. Bard's grandfather managed a glancing blow from a windlance, and all it did was knock a scale off.
** And
even when your home is not what the street dog is used to. Same for the eagles: they rescued were used, all they ended up doing was chipping scales off of Smaug, rather than actually hurting him. Keep in mind Smaug is in the dwarfs, same class, though not quite as powerful, as Dragons like Glaurung and took them home Ancalagon the Black. For comparison, Glaurung was killed by Turin using a sneak attack with an enchanted blade, and Turin, one of the strongest human warriors ever, died with him. Ancalagon was so powerful he and his Brood drove the VALAR back for the moment. Then Gandalf will be a time. So there really wasn't anything more precise on where do they want to go.
** Because the eagles want to give
the dwarves and Bilbo and Gandalf protection from the bloodthirsty, revenge-seeking goblins and wargs on the ground below while could do to effectively fight him than what they fetch dinner.
** It's not difficult to climb down, the Carrock has steps going down and they are even visible in the film.
** Better yet, why didn't the Eagles take them to the Lonely Mountain? It seemed that at most it would be a two hour flight for them.
** The books give a few reasons: ''Literature/TheHobbit'' tells that the Eagles fear woodsmen and other people who would shoot them down to defend their sheep, while ''Literature/TheLordOfTheRings'' gives an even more pragmatic reason, that for all their size and strength, the Eagles are still flesh and blood, and carrying large burdens like people is a serious strain, and they physically can't carry them for more than a few miles without exhausting themselves.
** Did you miss the part about the ''Dragon'' that lives in the Lonely Mountain? The eagles have an ample. fire-breathing reason to avoid the place like the plague.
** Plus, the eagles aren't necessarily at liberty to travel that far from the mountain range where they live. They probably have nestlings to care for and territories to defend.
** The company was on the eastern side of the Misty Mountains when the eagles picked them up. Assuming Peter Jackson is still going to have them meet Beorn, the eagles dropped them off prior to the western edge of Mirkwood. The distance from there to Erebor is about twice the distance the eagles had already carried them, which had already taken them several hours judging by the passage of the sun in the sky.
did.



[[folder:Bombur in Goblin Town]]
* During the escape from the Goblin Kingdom, Bombur (the overweight dwarf) falls down and lands several levels below the rest of the party. How does he catch up with the rest of the party? The other dwarves are running the whole time, so it doesn't seem like Bombur would have the time get back to the upper level and join them, but later on he's with the group again, with no explanation.
** He didn't run up to join them--they were steadily going down the whole time. They caught up to him.

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[[folder:Bombur [[folder:Thorin's heirs]]
* Why are Fíli and Kíli considered Thorin's heirs? Dwarf-women join their husband's houses when they marry, and Fíli and Kíli aren't male-line descendents. Surely they wouldn't be counted
in Goblin Town]]
* During
the escape line of succession.
** Most likely because Thorin has no children of his own, and Fíli and Kíli are the closest in blood-relation to him, even if they aren't technically part of the House of Durin because the line goes through their mother. So, they are most likely his heirs because of the closer blood ties, more than what House they technically belong to or not.
** Tolkien states that many dwarves never marry and even fewer have children, so it makes sense that Thorin would look to his closest blood-relations for heirs, including his sister. He probably isn't the first dwarf of nobility or royalty to never sire children. And even in heavily patrilineal countries, if there were no closely related heirs
from the Goblin Kingdom, Bombur (the overweight dwarf) falls down and lands several levels below male lineage, it wasn't unheard of for the rest children of the party. How does he catch up with the rest of the party? The other dwarves are running the whole time, so it doesn't seem like Bombur would have the time get back female heiresses to be appointed to the upper level and join them, but later on he's with throne.
** Strict patrilinearity may have been judged too unpalatable for a modern audience, or just too difficult to explain within
the group again, with no explanation.
constraints of a film.
** He didn't run up to join them--they were steadily going down the whole time. They caught up to him.And in a society where even kings don't necessarily marry, it would make sense if an unwed king without any younger brothers could simply ''proclaim'' that whomever he chooses can be his heirs. In Thorin's case, he chose his nephews.



[[folder:Bilbo and Goblin Town]]
* When Bilbo, while invisible, sees the rest of the team running by, he just stands there and watches them with anguish. Why doesn't he just run towards them? Sure, Gollum was in the way, but how much of an obstacle could he've been? Later Bilbo just vaults over him, so why not do it earlier?
** Because he's internally torn. The last time he saw them, they had a falling-out and he decided to leave them and return home. He didn't really have any reason to journey with them outside of a simple "because because" and Thorin kept on telling him he doesn't fit. Sure, he could have just vaulted over Gollum and joined them, but ... should he? That he didn't know then and that was why he hesitated.
** Plus he just ''barely'' makes it when he jumps. It's doubtful he was sure of his ability there.

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[[folder:Bilbo [[folder:Gandalf and Goblin Town]]
* When Bilbo, while invisible, sees
the rest Necromancer]]
* If Gandalf knows unequivocally that the Necromancer is Sauron as of ''Desolation of Smaug'', why is he so surprised that Sauron has returned in ''Fellowship
of the team running by, Ring''?
** Alzheimers?
** Because they'll undoubtedly banish him rather utterly by the end of ''There and Back Again'' and don't expect him to rise to full power again in a few short decades, especially in his old seat of power at Mordor.
** Also, it wasn't the fact that Sauron was still around that surprised him - "The spirit of Sauron endured", remember? - it was the fact that he'd discovered the One Ring was ''not'' so lost after all, and that Sauron might very well be trying to get it back.
** Exactly right. Gandalf wasn't surprised at all that Sauron was still around/alive; it was the ring being around - in the Shire no less - and that Sauron was looking for it that
he just stands didn't know about. So actually, even if they (The White Council) do somehow banish Sauron from Dol Guldur in ''There and Back Again,'' what Gandalf and the others should know is that whatever they do won't get rid of Sauron permanently. That he's still out there and watches them with anguish. somewhere, though they may not know exactly ''where,'' i.e. back in Mordor.
* Gandalf himself admits that most likely there's a trap waiting for him in Dol Guldur... So why does he go there anyway? He should know Sauron is stronger than him, so he has no chance of beating him face-to-face.
Why doesn't he just run towards them? Sure, Gollum was wait until the rest of the White Council gets there, so they'd have a better fighting chance? By deciding to go to Dol Guldur alone he achieves nothing except getting himself captured. Shouldn't Gandalf be smarter than that?
** I disagree that "he should know Sauron is stronger than him" - honestly according to everything
in the way, but first trilogy, Sauron isn't strong at all, and doesn't act directly - his powers are essentially remote-viewing, and willing other forces of evil to act. Sauron in Desolation demonstrates FAR greater power than he demonstrates in the LOTR trilogy and there's really no explanation for why he gets weaker given - best guess is something Galadriel did in their contest of wills weakened him greatly.
** I don't see
how much of an obstacle one could he've been? Later Bilbo just vaults over him, so why ''possibly'' judge Sauron's strength in direct combat from the LOTR film trilogy, because we never see him in such a situation there (outside the prologue). This is more an issue of Sauron's personality than anything; his nature is to lurk in the shadows and use others as his tools as much as possible, not do it earlier?
** Because
to go out fighting himself (taking the Legendarium as a whole into account, the number of times he's internally torn. The last time he saw them, they had a falling-out actually depicted as fighting can be counted on one hand, and he decided are always in response to leave them and return home. He didn't really have any reason to journey with them outside having lost almost all of a simple "because because" and Thorin kept on telling him his minions). In LOTR he doesn't fit. Sure, fight not because he's somehow weaker, but because he's got nine Nazgul and hundreds of thousands of men and orcs to do that for him; in ''The Hobbit'', he's responding to what amounts to an invasion of his own home when he's already sent his army away. It's a question of circumstance, not of power. Also, going by the books, keep in mind that the entire Dol Guldur battle was a feint to make the White Council think they'd beaten him, leaving him free to return to Mordor and bring his ''true'' strength to bear...
** Gandalf and Sauron are more or less equal in power so long as Sauron is without the Ring (at which point Sauron becomes more powerful than his mentor, Morgoth), as both are Maiar. The problem is that Gandalf is mandated so that he can't use the full extent of his powers (thus becoming more than capable of pretty much solving Middle-Earth's problems sans Sauron with the Ring on his own), as doing so would lead men to depend on him and become complacent. Also remember that Sauron is sorely weakened by the time he takes refuge in Dol Guldur. The only reason why their fight doesn't end with a draw is to build dramatic tension.
** But obviously Gandalf knows that he can't use his full power against Sauron. And even if he suspects Sauron is weakened, he doesn't know how weak Sauron is. So he enters Dol Guldur not knowing whether or not Sauron is powerful enough to defeat him. So the question remains: why doesn't he wait for the rest of the White Council to arrive there, so they'd have a better chance of defeating Sauron? Sauron has been building his power base in Dol Guldur for ''years'', so waiting for a few days for reinforcements wouldn't really change anything... Yet for some reason Gandalf seems to think it's necessary for him to go there immediately after he gets definite proof that the Necromancer is Sauron.
** Sauron with the Ring is NOT more powerful than Morgoth, not even close. Morgoth was powerful enough to change the landscape and climate of the entire world (he was responsible for creating the polar caps and several mountain ranges, volcanos and underground complexes); he created and bred Orcs by the millions, he created trolls and, more importantly, Dragons. Even with the Ring, the best Sauron could do was erect Barad-dûr, perfect the regular Orc into the Uruk-Hai and the regular Troll into the Olog-Hai, and breed the fell-beast for the Nazgûl 's use.
** Don't get Morgoth confused with Melkor. They're technically the same person, but Middle-earth's first Dark Lord diminished in power greatly over the course of his career. As Melkor, he was the most powerful PhysicalGod on the planet, and the second-most powerful being in the cosmos after [[{{God}} Eru Ilúvatar]], but he underwent canonical VillainDecay, squandering his power in extravagant acts of hate and destruction until by the time he became Morgoth, locked into a single physical form, he was weak enough that Ungoliant was a threat to him, Fingolfin was able to fight and injure him, and Lúthien was able to enchant him. Save the breeding of Dragons (which, though Tolkien gives no info on the precise process, may have been accomplished by using his corrupted Maiar as progenitors and therefore would have needed little to none of Morgoth's personal power) everything you describe was performed by the Great Enemy as Melkor, not Morgoth. When we say "Sauron + Ring > Morgoth, it means that Sauron at his strongest was more powerful than Morgoth at his ''weakest'', not that Sauron outpowered Melkor at the height of his strength.
** There is nothing in Tolkien's writings that suggests than even at his weakest Morgoth may have been less than his servant. Even by the time he had lost much of his power, Morgoth still managed to magically bred a wolf that was quite more powerful than Sauron was in his own wolf-form. Ungoliant being a threat means little since that was after she drank the Trees dry, and it required the entire Balrog host (ech one a Maia like Sauron) to drive her off.
** Nothing in Tolkien's writings? ''Au contrair''. 'Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age, than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not fallen so low. Eventually, he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to control others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had to let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the earth...' ''Morgoth's Ring'', pg 394. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Morgoth's breeding of things like dragons and super-werewolves was part of his ''problem'', or at least symptomatic of his wasteful use of his powers that led to him being drastically weakened (while the only thing Sauron permanently sunk part of himself into was the One Ring, where
he could have just vaulted over Gollum still access it so long as the Ring remained in his possession and joined them, but ... should he? That which actually ''enhanced'' his power while he wore it). The same text goes on to state that Sauron also likely had a greater knowledge of the Music (and by extension, of the things brought into being by Eru and the other Valar and Maiar) while Morgoth was only really interested in the raw expressions of elemental force that were his own particular domain; therefore as Arda became more defined and settled, Morgoth's knowledge and nature didn't serve him as well as Sauron's did.
** Gandalf still wasn't sure that the Necromancer was Sauron. In the battle he managed to confirm that it was, in fact Sauron, so
he didn't know then and that was why achieve "nothing". If he hesitated.
hadn't gone in the "Necromancer" may have managed to keep his identity secret.
** Plus Maybe I'm too cynical, but I assumed he did it to force Saruman's hand. If he just ''barely'' makes it when he jumps. It's doubtful he was sure came back with intel, Saruman would stall further. If he's captured alive, it'll take a lot to stop Galadriel (and maybe Elrond) setting off on a rescue mission regardless of his ability there.Saruman's opinion. That's why he's so adamant that Radagast *must* escape to tell them.



[[folder:Thranduil and Erebor]]
* Why did Thranduil personally lead an army of Elves in full battle array to Erebor, stay long enough to catch Thorin's attention, and then deliberately abandon the Dwarves? He already knew that Smaug was in the Lonely Mountain, and that Smaug was too powerful for his Elves to deal with (otherwise, why lead his army away?). Why come to the battle at all and why allow his army to be seen? It's almost like Thranduil rode out on his elk to say, "Hey, just wanted to make sure you know that we're intentionally not coming to your aid! Hope this doesn't foster any lifelong estrangement between our peoples! Alright, bye!"
** Most likely they had heard or received messengers of Smaug attacking Erebor and they went to go to their aid but by the time they got there it was a lost cause as it shows on his face that he's loathing what he's about to do. Perhaps there was an alliance or treaty of friendship between the Mirkwood and Erebor before but when they got to it and saw the destruction he knows that it was hopeless and if they engaged Smaug they would most likely die as well and two kingdoms would've been destroyed in the span of a day.
** He might have been tracking Smaug, hoping he had not yet conquered the mountain where Elves and the Dwarves could engage the dragon in the open, where the Sylvan archers would have an easier time fighting the Dragon. After seeing Smaug had already made his way inside Erebor and torn the dwarf defender asunder, he stopped, considered, then turned back, deciding the battle was not winnable.
** Or the elves didn't know ''which'' dragon (there are others) had attacked Dale and Erebor, and were hoping to face a less formidable foe. When Thranduil realized it was freakin' ''Smaug'', he realized his army didn't have a prayer of doing anything except getting roasted if they confronted the creature.
** My question is why they just flatly turned and retreated. There was a lot they could have done short of engaging Smaug directly: helping to evacuate the wounded and non-combatants for one. But they just leave.
** According to the book, Thorin and some friends were outside when Smaug attacked. The only survivors from Erebor itself were a few dwarves who escaped through a secret side door that nobody but the king knew about. Smaug attacked the main entrance and killed every dwarf that tried to escape. There simply weren't any wounded and non-combatants to rescue. Cue Fridge Horror.
** Or, less charitably, he was there in case Smaug decided he wasn't finished with Erebor and was going to keep rampaging on towards Mirkwood and points beyond. When Smaug seemed content to settle down in the Lonely Mountain, he thought "Not my problem, then" and left. Any of the explanations is as likely as the next, without a statement from the film to make it clear.
** The scene is so ambiguous that it could be assumed that Thranduil might've been planning to ''invade'' Erebor and backed off when he saw the dragon. He did marshall an army and make the trip to Erebor pretty quickly...
** Or to explain the ambiguity: Bilbo presents the scene the way that ''Thorin'' told it to ''him.'' Thorin is an UnreliableNarrator, and saw whatever help the Elves offered to Men and possibly Dwarves as an insult, when the actual ''source'' of problems was curling up happily on a hoard of gold.
** Another partial reason could be that when he saw Erebor Burning, he had flashbacks to when the dwarves sacked and burned Menegroth. The fact that Thranduil actually lived in Menegroth when it was razed has probably made him a bit bitter towards the dwarves, so when they rode up and found Smaug burning Erebor, he may have just decided the dwarves were geting thier just deserts. He certainly does seem to be the kind to hold a grudge.

to:

[[folder:Thranduil and Erebor]]
[[folder:Iron weapons]]
* Why did Thranduil personally lead an army of Elves in full battle array to Erebor, stay long enough to catch Thorin's attention, and then deliberately abandon the Dwarves? He already knew Specially forged weapons that Smaug was in are good for killing dragons - and the Lonely Mountain, and Black Arrow - are made of iron. The trouble is that Smaug was too powerful for his Elves to deal iron, in and of itself with (otherwise, why lead his army away?). Why come to the battle at all nothing else added, is not a very good material for weapons, since it can be quite brittle and why allow his army to ideally should be seen? It's almost like Thranduil rode out on his elk to say, "Hey, just wanted mixed with carbon to make sure you know steel, which is much stronger. Admittedly iron does sound better than steel in a fantasy world, but still.
** I think we can assume they have some sort of enchantment on them, like a "+1 dragon-bane weapon" in ''D&D''.
** Cold iron is often the bane of supernatural in mythological settings, usually fairies but plenty of other creatures are also given the weakness, including vampires and werewolves. Dragons can't be
that we're intentionally not coming to your aid! Hope this doesn't foster any lifelong estrangement between our peoples! Alright, bye!"
** Most likely they had heard or received messengers
far behind on the list. And maybe the dwarves of Smaug attacking Erebor and they went to go figured out some semi-mystical way of making pure iron incredibly durable?
** It might actually be a case of Elvish work rather than Dwarven. Elves clearly imbue their weapons with magic, which makes those who are evil more vulnerable
to their aid but by the time they got there it was a lost cause as it shows on his face that he's loathing what he's about to do. Perhaps there was an alliance or treaty of friendship between the Mirkwood and bite. Since Erebor before but when they got to it and saw the destruction he knows that it was hopeless and if they engaged Smaug they would most likely die as well and two kingdoms would've been destroyed in the span of a day.
** He might have been tracking Smaug, hoping he had not yet conquered the mountain where Elves and the Dwarves could engage the dragon in the open, where the Sylvan archers would have an easier time fighting the Dragon. After seeing Smaug had already made his way inside Erebor and torn the dwarf defender asunder, he stopped, considered, then turned back, deciding the battle was not winnable.
** Or
allied with the elves didn't know ''which'' dragon (there are others) had attacked Dale and Erebor, and were hoping to face a less formidable foe. When Thranduil realized it was freakin' ''Smaug'', he realized his army didn't have a prayer of doing anything except getting roasted if they confronted the creature.
** My question is why they just flatly turned and retreated. There was a lot they could have done short of engaging Smaug directly: helping to evacuate the wounded and non-combatants for one. But they just leave.
** According to the book, Thorin and some friends were outside when Smaug attacked. The only survivors from Erebor itself were a few dwarves who escaped through a secret side door that nobody but the king knew about. Smaug attacked the main entrance and killed every dwarf that tried to escape. There simply weren't any wounded and non-combatants to rescue. Cue Fridge Horror.
** Or, less charitably, he was there in case Smaug decided he wasn't finished with Erebor and was going to keep rampaging on towards Mirkwood and points beyond. When Smaug seemed content to settle down
back in the Lonely Mountain, he thought "Not my problem, then" and left. Any of day, the explanations is as likely as the next, without a statement from the film to make it clear.
** The scene is so ambiguous that it could
black arrows may be assumed that Thranduil might've been planning to ''invade'' Erebor and backed off when he saw the dragon. He did marshall an army and make the trip to Erebor pretty quickly...
** Or to explain the ambiguity: Bilbo presents the scene the way that ''Thorin'' told it to ''him.
more powerful not because they’re iron, but because they’re iron ''infused with Elvish magic.'' Thorin is an UnreliableNarrator, That would also explain why so few of them were made – Erebor was allied with the Elves, but still not exactly chummy with them, so they only managed to negotiate the making of four of them before Smaug showed up and saw whatever help ripped through the countryside like a weed whacker. Then the Elves offered to Men just left, and possibly nothing further was ever done about it.
**
Dwarves as an insult, when also imbue magic in their weapons. It's in the actual ''source'' song: "The Dwarves of problems was curling up happily yore made mighty spells, where hammers fell like ringing bells".
** Also - in English, iron-carbon alloys with over 2% of carbon in them are called "cast iron" (this troper, whose native language is not English, is at loss as to why). And yes, cast iron can be brittle, depending
on a hoard of gold.
** Another partial reason could be that when he saw Erebor Burning, he had flashbacks to when the dwarves sacked and burned Menegroth. The fact that Thranduil
its specific composition, but pure iron isn't - it's actually lived in Menegroth when too soft for practical use - carbon content makes it was razed harder and brittler, but to make pure iron you need very sophisticated equipment. Coal has probably made him a bit bitter towards the dwarves, so when they rode up always been used in smelting, and found Smaug burning Erebor, he may have just decided the dwarves were geting thier just deserts. He certainly does seem to be the kind to hold a grudge.all iron objects contain some carbon.



[[folder:Glowing Blades]]
* In ''Film/TheLordOfTheRings'', Sting is the only Elvish blade to glow blue in the presence of orcs. Fine, since it would have taken extra time to explain Glamdring's glow (and possibly Haldir's troops in ''The Two Towers''.) However, in ''Film/TheHobbit'', Elrond specifically states that both Glamdring and Orcrist would glow blue in the presence of orcs and goblins (and, by implication, Bilbo's as-yet-unnamed blade would too). But in practice, Bilbo's short sword shines brighter than a lightsaber, brighter than it ever did in ''Film/TheLordOfTheRings'', and Orcrist and Glamdring never do. At best, they have a faint gleam that looks more like a trick of the eyes than a real glow, even in the goblin kingdom where they should've shone like torches. What gives?
** In the film Elrond never says Glamdring and Orcrist would glow. It's Gandalf who says that to Bilbo, and he's only referring to Sting. One might wonder why the two others, having the same origin and being legendary weapons, do not glow, as they do in the book, but no one actually ever claims they ''should'' glow. So it's technically not a plot hole. Also had Glamdring glowed now, it would raise the question of why it no longer does in ''The Lord of the Rings''. Presumably the film makers decided to make the two sword consistent, and keep Sting the way it was, since its the only one whose glow is ever relevant to the plot.
** Agreed with the above. Glamdring and Orcist glowed in the book, but the directors/editors/producers/etc. in [=LOTR=] forgot that Glamdring glowed too until it was too late to change it, since they were focused on Sting. Eventually they decided that only Sting glowed, thus making it unique. They probably just wanted to keep Sting unique.
** Gandalf specifically says, "This is an Elvish blade, '''which means''' it glows blue in the presence of orcs..." If he doesn't mean to imply that all elvish blades glow, that's pretty poor writing on the screenwriter's part.
** Oh no, a character said something and it's automatically assumed that it's absolute truth and the author's opinion word for word instead of the character maybe, perhaps, simply being mistaken. ''That'' is pretty poor reading/watching on the reader's/viewer's part.
** Yeah, because it's not like you would expect the character consistently shown to be one of the wisest beings in Middle Earth to be ''right'' about something!
** Could be FridgeBrilliance: As Sting isn't large enough to have been a primary weapon for an elf warrior, it makes sense that it would be given a secondary property -- detection of orcs/goblins -- that would compliment the powers of the orc-''killing'' sword which a dagger like Sting was originally paired up with.
** Except that the elves in the books saw no problem with having Glamdring and Orcrist glow. It's not like it detracts from the combat effectiveness of the blade, and if it did you wouldn't choose another blade to give the 'orc proximity sensor' property to, you'd pick something like a ring that you wouldn't have to devote another hand to.
** Which is really irrelevant; the movie is a different continuity, and in that continuity the elves' blades in general do not glow around Orcs. Only Sting does.
** You say Sting glows brighter? I didn't notice. But if it did, it's probably because so many years have passed and the light has dulled. The batteries, I mean, uh . . . mystical elf magic obviously doesn't last that long, and so it dulls with time.
** When Gandalf draws his sword in the Goblin caves their king comments in terror on how bright it glows, even though we in the audience see nothing.
** Jackson & Co. stated that the swords looked too much like light sabers and it didn't look good. Since the medium of film focuses on visuals... it makes sense they'd cut something that looked weird.
** Sure Gandalf says Elven blades glow but just because elves make blades that glow around orcs doesn't mean they make ''all'' their blades glow. Indeed that would be rather a problem in battle; a whole army's worth of glowing swords would make it almost impossible to see the enemy coming and indeed those three swords are the only ones the Professor mentions glowing anywhere in either book. So only some Elven blades glow. In the book that includes Orcist and Glamdring, in the films it doesn't. Not that big of a deal. As for the Goblin kings screaming about how Gandalf's sword is glowing it is reflecting about a thousand torches at the time.

to:

[[folder:Glowing Blades]]
[[folder:Smaug's food]]
* In ''Film/TheLordOfTheRings'', Sting is Smaug had been holed up in Erebor for decades without being seen by the outside world until Thorin began to doubt he was still even there. What the heck did Smaug eat in all that time? Does he even need to eat? Was he hibernating? I really don't see ''"Smaug eats gold"'' as a viable theory.
** I was always under the impression that Smaug (and dragons in general) did hibernate for extended periods.
** Dragons are supernatural creatures and don't actually need to consume any more food than a Balrog or a Nazgûl does. They
only Elvish blade to glow blue in eat for the presence pleasure of orcs. Fine, since it it.
** That depends on whereas dragons are Maiar spirits or not. Even if they did originally start off as "angels", their assumption of a physical form and reproducing an entire physical race
would have taken extra time pretty much render them physical beings if Tolkien's "Maiar based orcs alternative origin" explanation holds water.
** May be dragons do eat, but they’re not necessary carnivorous, they may be omnivorous or even herbivorous like the sauropods were or like elephants and whales are. A dragon is a very large animal that would require huge amount of food. Now, we know Smaug doesn’t it people –cause there is a town nearby that haven’t see him in decades- and probably don’t eat animals –you don’t see any big fauna near either-. On the other hand, the environment around the Lonely Mountain seems kind of desertic
to explain Glamdring's glow (and possibly Haldir's troops in ''The Two Towers''.) me, like with no much flora. My theory is that Smaug feeds from flora and only “eat” meat when killing for territorial reasons or because is omnivorous. Other animals of a similar size like brontosaurs and whales feed similarly. Although I do agree that he probably hibernate for long periods of time.
** Actually, Smaug ''does'' eat people, as he boasts about having devoured the dwarves of Erebor and men of Dale "like a wolf among sheep".
However, in ''Film/TheHobbit'', Elrond specifically states I'd imagine that both Glamdring he does this as for pleasure/as a terror tactic, since as you point out the fact that Laketown is still standing points towards people not being a mainstay of his diet. Of course, using the needs of real animals to try and Orcrist would glow blue figure out Smaug's needs doesn't really work that well, since Middle-Earth dragons are, more-or-less, biological magic-powered war engines bred by the GodOfEvil millennia ago to destroy his enemies- we know that Smaug eats, and that at least sometimes he eats meat, and that's about all we have to go on.
** FridgeLogic + FridgeHorror: Having cooked the population of Erebor, he now has a lifetime supply of Jack Link's Brand Dwarf Jerky stashed somewhere
in the presence of orcs and goblins (and, by implication, Bilbo's as-yet-unnamed blade would too). But in practice, Bilbo's short sword shines brighter than a lightsaber, brighter than it ever did in ''Film/TheLordOfTheRings'', and Orcrist and Glamdring never do. At best, they have a faint gleam that looks more like a trick of the eyes than a real glow, even in the goblin kingdom where they should've shone like torches. What gives?
** In the film Elrond never says Glamdring and Orcrist would glow.
mountain.
*
It's Gandalf who says clearly established in the book that Smaug eats meat (whether or not he ''has'' to Bilbo, is up for debate) - he cheerfully tells Bilbo that he was outside eating the dwarves' ponies (not that the dwarves didn't notice him, but he was pissed off - although it doesn't state that the men from Laketown noticed him until his second hissy fit). I just assumed that he ''did'' leave the mountain from time to time to hunt the countryside for deer and he's such, but simply ignored Laketown to the point that the humans there stopped worrying about him. It's quite possible that he only referring has to Sting. One might wonder why eat every few days, weeks, or even months, and hates spending time away from his precious gold, so he only hunts for the two others, having minimum amount of time necessary before returning to bask in his enourmous wealth. And he is asleep when Bilbo arrives at the same origin and being legendary weapons, do not glow, as they do beginning of the night (the second time in the book, the only time in the film), but no one actually ever claims they ''should'' glow. So then wakes up and soon tears off happily to destroy Laketown - it's technically not a plot hole. Also had Glamdring glowed now, also possible that dragons are nocturnal and he was just waking up for his "morning," well rested and ready to go. And it would raise is night when Smaug awakens from his bad dream and realises that the question of why it no longer does in ''The Lord of the Rings''. Presumably the film makers decided to make the two sword consistent, and keep Sting the way it was, since its the only one whose glow cup that Bilbo stole is ever relevant to the plot.
** Agreed with the above. Glamdring and Orcist glowed
gone (Bilbo's first visit in the book, but book.). Therefore, if Smaug hunts at night, infrequently, and for a limited amount of time, the directors/editors/producers/etc. in [=LOTR=] forgot that Glamdring glowed too until it was too late to change it, since they were focused on Sting. Eventually they decided that only Sting glowed, thus making it unique. They probably just wanted people of Laketown might not even notice him - especially if he goes out a back door not facing Laketown and stays very near the mountain to keep Sting unique.
tabs on his hoard. Plus, he's a dragon with a number of cat-like tendencies - he may be quite stealthy, even if he's not necessarily trying to be.
* The only thing we see Smaug do without someone else disturbing him is lay around on his treasure mound. If we assume that to be representative of his typical behavior then it might be that low levels of activity make him need less food to begin with. He's spent so long in Erebor that people think he might be dead or gone, so it wasn't like he regularly flew around.
** Gandalf specifically says, "This is an Elvish blade, '''which means''' Large predators can be very inconspicuous: dinner's easier to catch if it glows blue in the presence of orcs..." If he doesn't mean see you coming. Flying high enough to imply that all elvish blades glow, that's pretty poor writing on the screenwriter's part.
** Oh no,
be seen a character said something and it's automatically assumed few days' journey away would scare off every herbivore in a similar radius. I'd also imagine that it's absolute truth and the author's opinion word easier for word instead of the character maybe, perhaps, simply being mistaken. ''That'' is pretty poor reading/watching on the reader's/viewer's part.
** Yeah, because it's not like you would expect the character consistently shown
a flying dragon to hunt when there's less vegetation. There seem to be one of open plains (prarie? mammoth steppe?) to the wisest beings in Middle Earth north, so he may prefer to be ''right'' about something!
** Could be FridgeBrilliance: As Sting isn't large enough to have been a primary weapon for an elf warrior, it makes sense that it would be given a secondary property -- detection of orcs/goblins -- that would compliment
fly off after the powers of the orc-''killing'' sword which a dagger like Sting was originally paired up with.
** Except that the elves
herds there rather than try to catch isolated deer or pigs in the books saw no problem with having Glamdring and Orcrist glow. It's not like it detracts from the combat effectiveness of the blade, and if it did you wouldn't choose another blade to give the 'orc proximity sensor' property to, you'd pick something like a ring that you wouldn't have to devote another hand to.
** Which is really irrelevant; the movie is a different continuity, and in that continuity the elves' blades in general do not glow
scrublands around Orcs. Only Sting does.
the Celduin.
** You say Sting glows brighter? I didn't notice. But if it did, it's probably because so many years He may also have passed and the light has dulled. The batteries, I mean, uh . . . mystical elf magic obviously doesn't last decided that long, stirring up the men of Lake Town on a regular basis has got boring, and so it dulls with time.
** When Gandalf draws
his sword in the Goblin caves their king comments in terror on how bright it glows, even though we in the audience see nothing.
** Jackson & Co. stated that the swords looked too much like light sabers
life is quieter and it didn't look good. Since the medium of film focuses on visuals... it makes sense they'd cut something that looked weird.
** Sure Gandalf says Elven blades glow but just because elves make blades that glow around orcs doesn't mean they make ''all'' their blades glow. Indeed that would be rather a problem in battle; a whole army's worth of glowing swords would make it almost impossible to see the enemy coming and indeed those three swords are the only ones the Professor mentions glowing anywhere in either book. So only some Elven blades glow. In the book that includes Orcist and Glamdring, in the films it doesn't. Not that big of a deal. As for the Goblin kings screaming
easier if he lets them forget about how Gandalf's sword is glowing it is reflecting about a thousand torches at the time.him.



[[folder:Sting as a warning system]]
* I've had this query ever since Lord of the Rings. Sting is a sword which glows blue when Orcs / Goblins are close. Thorin's company knew they were haunted by Orcs. And even if they didn't, they at least knew Goblins were unpleasant and should better be avoided. So why sheath Sting at all? Why not have Bilbo's job be Orc / Goblin detector and just keep holding it unsheathed, and whenever it glows blue inform the gang? The sequence always seems to go: Somebody notices Sting is glowing blue, oops, too late, Orcs are already all over us.
** Because you don't run around with a gun in your hand and your finger on the trigger either, do you? Sting is a weapon. A sharp weapon. And for the one time that it warns you of Orcs, there's 99 times that you're climbing over rocks, riding horses, or jumping from stone to stone where having a naked blade out is a ''bad idea''.
** They '''could''' still use it better as a sensor by poking a small hole on the sheath, so a little bit of the blade's side is always exposed. It wouldn't compromise the sheath itself (specially considering that we're talking about an elven dagger with thousands or years on it, it's probably quite resistant to natural erosion), and it would allow a little bit of light to shine through. Then all they have to do is keep an eye on it.
** But even the little bit of light in the above scenario might be much more visible to the huge and dark-adjusted eyes of the goblins, than to the dwarves and the hobbit; and therefore something they'd want to keep hidden, so as to avoid drawing their pursuers to them. And my recollection was that initially, they didn't realize they were in the Goblin King's territory; and later, they were far too busy fleeing to stop and periodically check whether Bilbo's sword was glowing. (I also recall in ''Fellowship'', nobody thought to check Sting either, until they were at Balin's tomb and the Orcs were already on the way. This is also TruthInTelevision, like not checking if you have your keys until after the door has locked behind you.)
** Does the film continuity ever establish the range on the orc sensor? Since it was made in Gondolin, a blade that tells you there're orcs within ten miles tells you they're up to something unusual. In the Misty Mountains, knowing there are orcs within ten miles or so is practically a certainty.
*** Sting's warning seems to be meant not for "orcs may be in range of our city," but for "orcs are about to threaten me personally." Bofur has an entire conversation with Bilbo and only notices the glow at the end, when the goblins are about to spring their trap. Later, the glow goes out when Gollum kills the one goblin in range, even though the rest of Goblin-Town isn't that far away. Likewise, in ''Fellowship'', it's not certain when Sting starts glowing, but by the time Aragorn notices it, the Uruk-hai are just around the corner.

to:

[[folder:Sting as a warning system]]
[[folder:Smaug's alliance]]
* I've had this query ever since Lord of Why ''would'' Smaug ally with Sauron in the Rings. Sting is a sword which glows blue when Orcs / Goblins are close. Thorin's company knew they were haunted by Orcs. And even if they didn't, they first place? There seems to be little that Sauron could actually offer the dragon, at least knew Goblins were unpleasant that Smaug would ''want''; there is no evidence he (Smaug) is interested in ruling over others for instance. Likewise Smaug is powerful enough to seize as much gold and should better be avoided. So why sheath Sting at all? Why not eat as many men/dwarves/elves/hobbits as he likes with Sauron's help. Is this an in-character case of Gandalf underestimating Smaug (he certainly seemed to have Bilbo's job be Orc / Goblin detector a low opinion of the dragon in the first film) and simply assuming Smaug would be DumbMuscle Sauron could trick into his service.
** Well, both Sauron and Smaug have the same master (Melkor, the first Dark Lord), so there is a chance they can broker an alliance. Gandalf is
just keep holding playing it unsheathed, and whenever safe by making sure it glows blue inform will never happen, or else there would be little the gang? The sequence always seems forces of good could do to go: Somebody notices Sting is glowing blue, oops, too late, Orcs are already all over us.
stop them.
** Because you I don't run around really see Melkor as much of a factor, myself - he's ancient history by the time of the Hobbit[=/LotR=] portion of the cycle, and while Sauron was certainly willing to use Melkor's name to get what he wanted when necessary (see also: the Downfall of Númenor), he didn't seem to owe him real allegiance any longer. I don't see Smaug being particularly inclined to go to war for a long-vanished master either. Rather, I imagine that any Sauron/Smaug alliance would involve some of the most epic bribery ever seen in the history of Middle-Earth, particularly if Sauron's role in the alliance was just to point out targets he wanted destroyed, then pull his armies back and let Smaug do his thing with minimal interference.
** You have
a gun in your hand point about Melkor, though I think Sauron at least is still loyal to his wishes. But Smaug would definitely not see having targets to destroy as a downside, but rather as an advantage. It would be less about Sauron inviting him to work, and your finger on the trigger either, do you? Sting is a weapon. A sharp weapon. And more like inviting him for the one time that it warns you of Orcs, there's 99 times that a game he enjoys. Anything Smaug could take from Sauron as payment would just be a plus.
** I think
you're climbing over rocks, riding horses, or jumping from stone seriously overestimating Sauron's loyalty to stone where having a naked blade out is a ''bad idea''.
** They '''could''' still use it better as a sensor by poking a small hole
Melkor, which was limited even when he was Melkor's [[TheDragon Dragon]]- he's listed on the sheath, so DragonWithAnAgenda page for a little bit reason (specifically, Melkor/Morgoth was motivated primarily by spite stemming from being unable to create- and be god of- his own world, while Sauron was motivated by a desire for peace and order that got warped by his pride into a need to control everything). And Smaug is a dragon, pretty much an incarnation of avarice. Why settle for just burning the blade's side is always exposed. It world, when he can burn the world and get paid outrageously for it at the same time? I can't imagine he wouldn't compromise milk Sauron for all he was worth, even as payment for things he'd have been perfectly willing to do anyway.
** There's also
the sheath itself (specially considering possibility that we're talking Sauron wouldn't get try to Smaug onside through an up-front offer of an alliance, but through sublter manipulation. Kind of Sauron's thing, after all, and Smaug is far from immune to manipulation (even Bilbo manages it in a minor way, after all).
** Smaug himself said that he ''enjoys'' causing pain and suffering almost as much as having gold, heck he let Bilbo live at the end of the second film just so he could suffer as he destroys a small town, and was even tempted to ''let Thorin take the arkenstone'' just to see him become mad with greed. Plus the reason he went to the Dwarf kingdoms was for gold, Sauron could bribe him by saying not only will he give him people to kill for his satisfy his cruelty but also even more gold(as Smaug values every single coin in his hoard). Granted this is an unlikely bribery but Gandalf is GenrySavvy enough to not take the risk in case Murphy's Fourth Law kick in.
** "Hey Smaug! How would you like to add all the gold in Middle-Earth to your treasure horde? If you help me burn down all the Kingdoms of Elves, Dwarves and Men (and who doesn't love burning, destruction and mass murder and all the screaming victims you can eat, AMIRITE?) and I will give you all of their treasure. Don't worry
about an elven dagger with thousands or years on it, it's probably quite resistant to natural erosion), and it would allow a little bit of light to shine through. Then all they have to do is keep an eye on it.
** But even the little bit of light
me! I won't be needing currency in the above scenario might be much new order, as I plan to enslave anyone we don't kill. Heck, I'll even force them to mine more visible to the huge gold and dark-adjusted eyes jewels and mithril out of the goblins, earth and give you even more treasure! By the time I'm done, you'll have a mountain of treasure bigger than Erebor to sleep on. Stick with me, baby! You're going to have so much fun killing every goddamn thing and becoming the dwarves richest motherfucking dragon there ever was and the hobbit; will ever be."
** I can't help but draw a possible parallel between Sauron
and therefore something they'd want Smaug's alliance to keep hidden, so be just as to avoid drawing their pursuers to them. And my recollection was worse as that initially, they of Morgoth and Ungoliant's earlier in the First Age, and Gandalf perhaps didn't realize they were in the Goblin King's territory; and later, they were far too busy fleeing want to stop and periodically check whether Bilbo's sword was glowing. (I also recall in ''Fellowship'', nobody thought to check Sting either, until they were at Balin's tomb and the Orcs were already on the way. This is also TruthInTelevision, like not checking if you have your keys until after the door has locked behind you.)
** Does the film continuity ever establish the range on the orc sensor? Since it was made in Gondolin, a blade that tells you there're orcs within ten miles tells you they're up to
see something unusual. In like that happen again.
** The exact wording in "The Quest for Erebor" is "And beyond them lay
the Misty Mountains, knowing there are orcs within ten miles or so is practically a certainty.
*** Sting's warning seems to be meant not for "orcs may be in range
desolation of our city," but for "orcs are about to threaten me personally.the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect." Bofur has an entire conversation with Bilbo Two words jump out at me: "might" (Gandalf is not sure that this will happen, but is being cautious), and only notices "use" (he does not foresee an equal alliance, but Sauron controlling Smaug -- by what means, who knows?).
** So Gandalf was really just trying to get rid off a very dangerous loose cannon by killing Smaug? Whether he serves Sauron or not Smaug is still extremely dangerous and needs to die to ensure
the glow at safety of the end, when the goblins are about north.
** As a dragon, Smaug is a creature created and thus touched by evil and would be sensitive
to spring their trap. Later, the glow goes out when Sauron's power. Remember that Gollum kills was somehow drawn to Mordor where he was captured, while Sauron was consolidating his forces. Smaug would probably be too powerful to be directly controlled by Sauron, but he could use his subtle influence to rouse Smaug from his slumber and awaken a desire to cause massive destruction that would ultimately benefit Sauron's cause.
** Even if Smaug was content with all his gold and the suffering he had already caused, Sauron could offer to fix the spot where Smaug lost a scale. It is doubtful that such a task is beyond
the one goblin in range, even though the rest of Goblin-Town isn't that far away. Likewise, in ''Fellowship'', it's not certain when Sting starts glowing, but by the time Aragorn notices it, the Uruk-hai who forged such powerful rings and would require any attempts to kill him to have more black arrows than are just around the corner.known to exist.



[[folder:Gandalf's reasons for starting the journey]]
* I know that in the book, Gandalf sent the dwarves and Bilbo on their journey to keep Smaug and Sauron from assisting and allying with one another. In the film, Gandalf did not realize that Sauron has made a foothold in Dol Guldur yet so what is his motivation for sending Thorin and Co. on this quest?
** Gandalf doesn't yet know that Sauron is active in Mirkwood, but he ''does'' know that Sauron is still out there somewhere and will eventually try to return to power. Wizards (and elves, for that matter) play the long game.
** Better see the film again. Gandalf did not "send" the dwarves to the Lonely Mountain, it was their own idea and they would have gone anyway, with or without Gandalf, with or without the help or blessing of TheOmniscientCouncilOfVagueness in Rivendell.
** Thorin was the one who wanted to reclaim Erebor and kill Smaug; Gandalf thought it was a good idea because of the possibility of Smaug allying with Sauron and so put his support behind Thorin's expedition, going so far as to choose their burglar for them. From Thorin's perspective the quest was all his and Gandalf just helped out; from the perspective of most of the Wise (and Sauron) it would look much more like a piece Gandalf has put into play; I think Gandalf himself would think of it as seeing something already in motion (or about to be in motion) and greasing the wheels for it.
** Even without any prospect of Smaug allying with Sauron there are very good reasons for Gandalf supporting the quest given he suspects Sauron's imminent resurgence - Erebor is perhaps the most impenetrable stronghold in Rhovanion and the dwarves are some of the hardiest and most tenacious of the free peoples; returning them to their homeland and prosperity will greatly strengthen the region when war inevitably comes - it will certainly help to block Sauron's armies from passing north of Mirkwood, creating a barrier right from the Grey Mountains to the sea. Gandalf comments in the books (probably The Quest for Erebor) how the War of the Ring wasn't won solely on the fields of Pelennor, but also outside the gates of Erebor and other locations - just as Gandalf rallies Rohan and Gondor during the war itself, here he's rallying the dwarves and preparing them for the impending conflict.
** There is also good and sufficient reason just in getting rid of the dragon, one of the most powerful creatures on the planet, a beast of unimaginable viciousness which burns entire realms just ForTheEvulz. Whether it did or didn't ally itself with anyone else, there's no telling when it might decide to go on a new rampage, or where. So, if there's an opposite trope to ForTheEvulz, part of Gandalf's motivation is that (ForTheGoodz?).
** ForGreatJustice!

to:

[[folder:Gandalf's reasons for starting the journey]]
[[folder:Sauron and Narya]]
* I know that in the book, Sauron, who likes to have Rings of Power, takes Gandalf sent captive, who wears Narya, the dwarves Elvish Ring of Fire, and Bilbo just leaves it on their journey to keep Smaug and him? Wut.
** Does
Sauron from assisting and allying with one another. In the film, Gandalf did not realize that Sauron has made a foothold in Dol Guldur yet so what is his motivation for sending Thorin and Co. on this quest?
** Gandalf doesn't yet know that Sauron is active in Mirkwood, but he ''does'' know that Sauron is still out there somewhere and will eventually try to return to power. Wizards (and elves, for that matter) play the long game.
** Better see the film again. Gandalf did not "send" the dwarves to the Lonely Mountain, it was their own idea and they would have gone anyway, with or without Gandalf, with or without the help or blessing of TheOmniscientCouncilOfVagueness in Rivendell.
** Thorin was the one who wanted to reclaim Erebor and kill Smaug; Gandalf thought it was a good idea because of the possibility of Smaug allying with Sauron and so put his support behind Thorin's expedition, going so far as to choose their burglar for them. From Thorin's perspective the quest was all his and Gandalf just helped out; from the perspective of most of the Wise (and Sauron) it would look much more like a piece
even ''know'' Gandalf has put into play; I think Gandalf himself would think of it as seeing something already in motion (or about to be in motion) and greasing Narya? It wasn't exactly common knowledge. Besides, the wheels for it.
** Even without any prospect
nature of Smaug allying with the Three is such that they were essentially useless to Sauron there are very good reasons unless he had the One, and if he ''did'' get the One back it would actually be advantageous for Gandalf supporting to still have Narya, since Sauron could then enslave him.
** Actually,
the quest given he suspects Sauron's imminent resurgence - Erebor is perhaps three Elven rings were uncorrupted by Sauron, so they'd be completely useless to him regardless of having the most impenetrable stronghold in Rhovanion and the dwarves are some of the hardiest and most tenacious of the free peoples; returning One (unless he could, somehow, corrupt them to after their homeland and prosperity will greatly strengthen the region when war inevitably comes - creation). He could take it will certainly help to block Sauron's armies from passing north of Mirkwood, creating a barrier right from the Grey Mountains to the sea. Gandalf comments in the books (probably The Quest for Erebor) how the War of the Ring wasn't won solely on the fields of Pelennor, order to make him weaker, but also outside the gates of Erebor and other locations - just as Gandalf rallies Rohan and Gondor during the war itself, here he's rallying the dwarves and preparing them for the impending conflict.
** There is also good and sufficient reason just in getting rid of the dragon, one of the most powerful creatures on the planet, a beast of unimaginable viciousness which burns entire realms just ForTheEvulz. Whether it did
either didn't care, or didn't ally itself know.
** Not quite. When the One was first made, the wielders of the Three explicitly ''took them off'' in order to prevent themselves from being dominated, and Galadriel states in ''Fellowship'' (book version) that if Sauron regained the One, he'd be able to perceive her, her thoughts, and everything she'd used Nenya to do and be able to corrupt them at will, and Elrond says much the same at the Council - "it would be better if the Three had never been". Sauron may have never touched the Three, but they were made
with the same techniques as the Seven and the Nine and thus would be subject to the One ''only if it's actually being used by Sauron'', but unlike the other Rings they carry no corruption in-and-of themselves.
** Considering Gandalf had no doubt whatsoever that he was walking into a trap, it's possible he didn't bring Narya along at the time, at all.
** For that matter, where does Gandalf keep Narya when we don't see it? Or do I want to know?
** Considering that hardly
anyone else, there's no telling knew Gandalf had Narya at all, I would not be at all surprised if it didn't have some means of concealing itself. In this particular situation, I imagine one of the Three would also be the ''opposite'' of the One- where the One wants Sauron to find and use it, Narya presumably would want to ''avoid'' being found by Sauron for as long as possible.
** The three Elven Rings must have some way to prevent them from being taken against the bearer's will, since Saruman also fails to take Narya from Gandalf
when it might decide he captures him (and according to go on a new rampage, or where. So, if there's an opposite trope to ForTheEvulz, part of Gandalf's motivation is the books he at least suspected that (ForTheGoodz?).
** ForGreatJustice!
Gandalf had it). Sam can't even see Galadriel's ring in the book, even when she's obviously using it.



[[folder:Dwarf King's greed]]
* Why did the film try to push the dwarf king's greed as if that was the cause of Smaug's attack? Even if he was a bit obsessed, he was still a king of a prosperous nation that was literally sitting on a gold mine. Their treasury would still contain mounds of gold no matter what the king's attitude was. Did Smaug just spawn in when they hit a gold cap?
** I got the impression that Thrór's greed had somehow attracted Smaug, as if he could sense it or something. Alternatively, there's a line in ''Fellowship'' about how 'The Dwarves delved too deep and too greedily'; maybe the same thing applies here. Had they not been so greedy, Smaug might have gone somewhere else.
** It may have been that Thrór's strange behaviour attracted attention until word of the vast fortune reached Smaug. It could also have been that one of the the dwarf rings of power which was part of the treasure caused it (it did make dwarves more greedy) and had a lasting effect on Thrór, Smaug and later Thorin. Although the book implies that it was Smaug that left the "Dragon sickness" on the gold and Thrór was never struck with it as he had it before Smaug.
** Smaug sensed or heard of a large pile of gold in one place and wanted to have it. It's not much more complicated than that. If Thrór hadn't been so greedy, he wouldn't have gathered all the gold they dug up to a single hoard. He would have invested it and used it for trade with other nations and if the gold was spread out more far that way, Smaug wouldn't have bothered with it, or would at least have been forced to pick out of several smaller targets, instead of one big one.
** My instict is it occurred that way for the same reason as Thranduil showing up with an army - the practicalities of adaptation. In this case it's foreshadowing the film's reason for Thorin's fall from grace, which it appears by the stressing of 'dragon-sickness' as an actual 'mental' condition which Thrór and his bloodline are prone to. It has less to do with Smaug (who as you rightly point out would attack such a prosperous kingdom as Erebor regardless of it's King's attitudes) than it does about illuminating a weakness InTheBlood of a main character. Personally I felt the portrayal of Thrór was rather flanderized, making him seem more of a doddery riches-obsessed fool than a wise king who refounded a kingdom and ruled in such a way as to instigate a golden age of prosperity, but it's not a film about Thrór so his purpose is to illustrate points that impact on the wider story and key characters.
** Another possibility is, of course, the rings made by Sauron. Seven were given to the dwarves, remember? Thror, and then Thrain, had the ring bestowed to Durin's line by Sauron. Dwarves are naturally immune to the more negative effects of the rings, so all the seven could do was increase the greed of the dwarves and eventually bring their ruin by dragons. Four of the seven rings were actually lost to dragon fire and the Durin ring was the last retrieved of the seven when Thrain went 'missing'. With this theory though there does come the hiccup of explaining away Thorin's own episode of gold greed. My guess is long-time influence of the ring on his forefathers and dragon's curse on the gold.
* Watching this film for the first time in a long time, it occurred to me that the wealth of the dwarves was described visually by showing people of various races trading, eating, wearing fine clothing etc. until the appearance of the Arkenstone, at which point the Dwarf King was shown standing in and enjoying a big pile of gold for the first time. I figured that, before the Arkenstone, the wealth that flowed from Erebor, well, flowed... the riches were spread out into the economy, which is really the best way for riches to make people wealthy. The Arkenstone seems to have been the key in the movie, causing him to start actually hoarding gold for the first time, leading to a, well, hoard that Smaug would be interested in.

to:

[[folder:Dwarf King's greed]]
[[folder:The Arkenstone]]
* Why did Does the Arkenstone have a corrupting influence like the Rings of Power do? In the first film try to push it's implied that the discovery of the Arkenstone marked a turning point when Erebor (or at least Thror's mental state) started going downhill, and in the second film Smaug suggests that simply ''having'' the Arkenstone in his possession would corrupt Thorin and drive him mad.
** Symbolically, definitely (there's a sub-narrative about the corrupting effects of greed). If they end up making it literally a corruptive magical item like the One Ring, that would be literalizing something that's best left symbolic, but I wouldn't put it past the filmmakers.
** A more reasonable hypothesis is merely a case of Smaug having an idea of what Thorin's plan was. False hope can be a corrosive thing, and Smaug probably posited that Thorin getting the Arkenstone, gathering all
the dwarf king's greed as if that was the cause of Smaug's attack? Even if he was a bit obsessed, he was still a king of a prosperous nation that was literally sitting on a gold mine. Their treasury armies to him, and then getting them all charbroiled would still contain mounds of gold no matter what the king's attitude was. Did have crushed Thorin completely, something Smaug just spawn in when they hit a gold cap?
would find most agreeable.
** I got As Balin states, the impression that Thrór's greed had somehow attracted Smaug, as if he could sense it or something. Alternatively, there's a line in ''Fellowship'' about how 'The Dwarves delved too deep Arkenstone is the crown jewel and too greedily'; maybe representation of the same thing applies here. Had they not been so greedy, Smaug might have gone somewhere else.
** It may have been that Thrór's strange behaviour attracted attention until word
entire treasure of Erebor. When Thorin sees the vast fortune reached Smaug. It could also have been that one wealth before him, all of his initial thoughts of rescuing Bilbo are replaced by the thoughts of greed and the dwarf rings of power which was Arkenstone. After they reclaimed the mountain, Thorin refuses to part with any of the treasure caused it (it did that he sees as rightfully his, and Balin speculates that the Arkenstone would make him worse.
* On a related note, when the
dwarves more greedy) and had a lasting effect on Thrór, Smaug and later Thorin. Although couldn't find the book implies that it was Smaug that left the "Dragon sickness" on the gold and Thrór was never struck with it as he had it before Smaug.
** Smaug sensed or heard
Arkenstone after so many days of a large pile of gold in one place and wanted to have it. It's not much more complicated than that. If Thrór hadn't been so greedy, he wouldn't have gathered all the gold they dug up to a single hoard. He would have invested it and used it for trade with other nations and if the gold was spread out more far that way, Smaug wouldn't have bothered with it, or would searching, why didn't anyone at least have been forced to pick out of several smaller targets, instead of one big one.
** My instict is it occurred that way for
broach the same reason as Thranduil showing up with an army - the practicalities of adaptation. In this case it's foreshadowing the film's reason for Thorin's fall from grace, which it appears by the stressing of 'dragon-sickness' as an actual 'mental' condition which Thrór and his bloodline are prone to. It has less to do with Smaug (who as you rightly point out would attack such a prosperous kingdom as Erebor regardless of it's King's attitudes) than it does about illuminating a weakness InTheBlood of a main character. Personally I felt the portrayal of Thrór was rather flanderized, making him seem more of a doddery riches-obsessed fool than a wise king who refounded a kingdom and ruled in such a way as to instigate a golden age of prosperity, but it's not a film about Thrór so his purpose is to illustrate points that impact on the wider story and key characters.
** Another
possibility is, of course, that Smaug might've been ''wearing the rings made by Sauron. Seven were given to the dwarves, remember? Thror, and then Thrain, had the ring bestowed to Durin's line by Sauron. Dwarves are naturally immune to the more negative effects of the rings, so all the seven could do was increase the greed of the dwarves and eventually bring their ruin by dragons. Four of the seven rings were actually lost to dragon fire and the Durin ring was the last retrieved of the seven thing'' when Thrain went 'missing'. With this theory though there does come he flew off to attack Lake-town? Even if the hiccup of explaining away Thorin's own episode of gold greed. My guess is long-time influence of the ring on his forefathers and dragon's curse on belly-coating of jewels was downplayed in the gold.
* Watching this film for the first time in a long time, it occurred to me that the wealth of
movie, the dwarves still knew he had at least ''some'' of his treasure jammed into the gaps between his scales: one of those coins slipped loose and fell right in front of them in the [[DroolHello Clink Hello]] from the previous movie. And if there was described visually by showing people anything from his hoard Smaug's greed would've urged him to keep on his own person, 24-7, it's the single most priceless object he's ever laid claim to.
** The Arkenstone is not some small coin or random jewel
of various races trading, eating, Erebor's great treasure, it is as Balin states to be a great white gem that can be recognized the moment you lay eyes upon it. Bilbo, despite being given a vague description of the Arkenstone and discovering there are many white gems that fit the description, was able to find and identify the crown jewel just from the glowing aura. If Smaug was wearing fine clothing etc. until the appearance of the Arkenstone, at which point the Dwarf King was shown standing in and enjoying a big pile of gold for the first time. I figured that, before the Arkenstone, the wealth that flowed from Erebor, well, flowed... the riches were spread out into the economy, which is really the best way for riches to make people wealthy. The Arkenstone seems to Dwarves would have been the key in the movie, causing him immediately spot it right on. Not to start actually hoarding gold for the first time, leading to a, well, hoard mention that Smaug considers all of Erebor's treasure to be priceless to him, and [[DisproportionateRetribution would be interested in.take just as much offense if a single coin were to go missing]].



[[folder:Preparing against dragon attacks]]
* Related question: If you know dragons are a thing that exists in your world, and you're obsessed with your gold, shouldn't you have an anti-dragon defense plan set up for your gold stash? Seems like some ballista or weighted nets or something could have been set up.
** Dragons were very rare after the War of Wrath where Morgoth was thrown to the Outer Void, and Great Dragons even more so. Smaug belongs to the latter category and is believed to be the LastOfHisKind. In short, dragons were a distant rumour as far as Erebor was concerned, something that was a problem in the distant North and East, not at their own doorstep. Besides, they had excellent defenses that could have held entire armies at bay. Since no-one alive had experienced an actual dragon attack, at least one as terrible as Smaug's, they were thoroughly unprepared for the real thing.
** With something like Smaug, anti-dragon defenses can best be summed up as "pray a dragon doesn't notice you."
** This, pretty much. What anti-dragon defenses could there be? Erebor was already about as hardened and impenetrable as it could get, on the defense side. On the offense side, weapons large enough to hurt most dragons would be in the "siege weaponry" size category, which for people at their level of development would have been too slow to arm and aim to do much good against a dragon.
** ''The Desolation of Smaug'' revealed there were anti-dragon defenses already in place when Smaug attacked, namely Dwarven windlass crossbows and black arrows. Unfortunately for Dale and Erebor, Smaug was too fast and too tough for the crossbows to be effective, and the black arrows were few to come by.
** The windlance was a little more than just a crossbow. It was basically a ballista, and the black arrow was a high power ballista bolt. It's said that dragon hide is so tough that anything but a direct hit from one of those would be completely ineffective. Bard's grandfather managed a glancing blow from a windlance, and all it did was knock a scale off.
** And even when they were used, all they ended up doing was chipping scales off of Smaug, rather than actually hurting him. Keep in mind Smaug is in the same class, though not quite as powerful, as Dragons like Glaurung and Ancalagon the Black. For comparison, Glaurung was killed by Turin using a sneak attack with an enchanted blade, and Turin, one of the strongest human warriors ever, died with him. Ancalagon was so powerful he and his Brood drove the VALAR back for a time. So there really wasn't anything more the dwarves could do to effectively fight him than what they did.

to:

[[folder:Preparing against dragon attacks]]
[[folder:Beorn]]
* Related question: If you know dragons are a thing How does that exists shackle stay on Beorn's wrist when he transforms? His arms have got to be like three times as thick in your world, and his bear-form, right? Shouldn't it have snapped off or crushed all the bones in his wrist the first time he transformed with it on?
** Yeah, I thought that was weird, too. Presumably some kind of magic is involved - if
you're obsessed with your gold, shouldn't taking skin-changers captive, you have an anti-dragon defense plan set up for your gold stash? Seems like some ballista or weighted nets or something could have been set up.
** Dragons were very rare after
might enchant the War of Wrath where Morgoth was thrown to the Outer Void, and Great Dragons even more so. Smaug belongs to the latter category and is believed to be the LastOfHisKind. In short, dragons were a distant rumour as far as Erebor was concerned, something shackle somehow so that was a problem in the distant North and East, not at their own doorstep. Besides, they had excellent defenses that could have held entire armies at bay. Since no-one alive had experienced an actual dragon attack, at least one as terrible as Smaug's, they were thoroughly unprepared for the real thing.
** With something like Smaug, anti-dragon defenses can best be summed up as "pray a dragon
it doesn't notice you."
** This, pretty much. What anti-dragon defenses could there be? Erebor was already about as hardened and impenetrable as it could get, on the defense side. On the offense side, weapons large enough to hurt most dragons
break or destroy their wrists. Beorn said that they were imprisoned for sport, so it's possible that their torture involved setting up what would essentially be in cock fights except with giant bears. Being forced to fight your own family and friends gladiator style would probably be the "siege weaponry" size category, kind of sadism orcs would enjoy. In which for people case, the manacles would need to adapt with the skin-changers so that they would remain shackled at their level of development all times.
** My question is actually if Beorn got one manacle off, then why does he still have the other? You would think after all this time he
would have been too slow to arm and aim to do much good against a dragon.
** ''The Desolation of Smaug'' revealed there were anti-dragon defenses already in place when Smaug attacked, namely Dwarven windlass crossbows and black arrows. Unfortunately for Dale and Erebor, Smaug was too fast and too tough for the crossbows to be effective, and the black arrows were few to come by.
** The windlance was a little more than just a crossbow. It was basically a ballista, and the black arrow was a high power ballista bolt. It's said that dragon hide is so tough that anything but a direct hit from one of those would be completely ineffective. Bard's grandfather
managed a glancing blow from a windlance, to get the second one off, so maybe he wears it to remember his kin and all it did was knock a scale off.
** And even when they were used,
all they ended up doing suffered or something.
** Was he ever restrained by both wrists? If it
was chipping scales off of Smaug, rather than actually hurting him. Keep in mind Smaug is in for a blood sport, he'd fight better if there's just a leash on one wrist.
** That ''would'' make sense. Maybe all he managed to do was break
the same class, though not quite as powerful, as Dragons like Glaurung and Ancalagon chain, but the Black. For comparison, Glaurung manacle itself was killed by Turin using a sneak attack with an too enchanted blade, to get rid of.
** It depends on how Beorn's shape-changing magic works. Perhaps he's a man with the soul of a bear,
and Turin, one that's why he can become a bear. And that manacle is no longer just a manacle, but a shackle that has been placed on Beorn's soul, symbolic of the strongest human warriors ever, died with him. Ancalagon was so powerful he pain he's suffered and his Brood drove the VALAR back for a time. So there really wasn't anything more the dwarves could do to effectively fight him than what they did.he's lost.



[[folder:Radagast and the Misty Mountains]]
* How does Radagast get past the Misty Mountains on his bunny sled? He comes all the way from Mirkwood to the other side and is talking about the events of Dol Guldur as if they happened five minutes ago. It kind of takes away from the whole "epic journey" part of The Hobbit if a side character can just flit through most of the journey in a few minutes.
** Why do you imagine that it happened five minutes ago? It's clearly a flashback that can have taken place anywhere from several days to several weeks ago. Gandalf even implies later in his speech with the White Council that it's been awhile since the Necromancer's manifestation, if the people of the forest have had time to change the name of the place, already. Also, the Misty Mountains aren't impassable. Radagast could have taken the southern route and gone through the Gap of Rohan, guarded by the fortress of his faithful colleague, Saruman the White. Since Dol Guldur lies in the southern Mirkwood it wouldn't have been nearly as great a detour for Radagast as it would be for Gandalf and the Company.
** Or Radagast could have traveled through the Pass of Caradhras like the Fellowship tried in [=LOTR=] before they got snowed out and went to Moria.
** The Pass of Caradhras is a last-resort path in by itself, extremely dangerous and occasionally haunted by a malevolent GeniusLoci. There are many passes going over the Misty Mountains in the north, but the Gap of Rohan would make most sense for Radagast, considering his method of transport; that sled would be a serious hindrance on narrow mountain paths and rabbits need to eat.
** Time of year matters in mountains. Gandalf is worried about the Pass in LOTR because it's January (even though the Pass would normally stay clear year round, he's worried about freak weather), and they're carrying the biggest evil magnet in the world. In the Hobbit, it's summer: avalanche season and the spring melt/floods should be well over, so the mountains are as safe as they'll get. Of course, anything with "Stair" in its name is still going to be a problem for a sled.
** He probably passed through the '''High Pass''', the place nearest to Rivendell. It's a long distance, but not as longest as having to reach Rohan. He only would have to go north, cross the Anduin near the Carrock and easily take the pass for enter Rhudaur. This pass was Thorin and co. initial option to cross the mountains.

to:

[[folder:Radagast and [[folder:Smaug's jeweled waistcoat]]
* I still can't quite tell if Smaug has his magnificently armored underbelly. It sparkles a bit at
the Misty Mountains]]
* How does Radagast get past
beginning, but then the Misty Mountains on close-up is lacking. In the high def, it ''looks'' like he's got some gold coins jammed in his bunny sled? He comes all the way from Mirkwood to the other side and is talking about the events of Dol Guldur as if they happened five minutes ago. It kind of takes away from the whole "epic journey" part of The Hobbit if a side character can just flit through most of the journey in a few minutes.
** Why do you imagine
scales there. Is that it happened five minutes ago? what's going on?
**
It's clearly just a flashback that few coins jammed in the cracks of his scales. I can only assume they figured an impenetrable coating of gems and gold would look bizarre in live action.
** Or just unrealistic. Weta Workshop are sticklers for making their creatures seem like they could actually exist in real life. Which is also why they made Smaug a wyvern.
** It also might not
have taken place anywhere from several days to several weeks ago. Gandalf even implies later in his speech worked well with the White Council drown-the-dragon-in-gold ploy that it's the dwarves engineered in ''Desolation''. Probably the "waistcoat" would've been awhile since scattered when Smaug shook the Necromancer's manifestation, if the people of the forest have had time to change the name of the place, already. Also, the Misty Mountains aren't impassable. Radagast could have taken the southern route and gone through the Gap of Rohan, guarded by the fortress of his faithful colleague, Saruman the White. Since Dol Guldur lies in the southern Mirkwood it wouldn't have been nearly as great a detour for Radagast as it would be for Gandalf and the Company.
** Or Radagast could have traveled through the Pass of Caradhras like the Fellowship tried in [=LOTR=] before they got snowed out and went to Moria.
** The Pass of Caradhras is a last-resort path in by itself, extremely dangerous and occasionally haunted by a malevolent GeniusLoci. There are many passes going over the Misty Mountains in the north, but the Gap of Rohan would make most sense for Radagast, considering his method of transport; that sled would be a serious hindrance on narrow mountain paths and rabbits need to eat.
** Time of year matters in mountains. Gandalf is worried about the Pass in LOTR because it's January (even though the Pass would normally stay clear year round, he's worried about freak weather), and they're carrying the biggest evil magnet in the world. In the Hobbit, it's summer: avalanche season and the spring melt/floods should be well over, so the mountains are as safe as they'll get. Of course, anything with "Stair" in its name is still going to be a problem for a sled.
** He probably passed through the '''High Pass''', the place nearest to Rivendell. It's a long distance, but not as longest as having to reach Rohan. He only would have to go north, cross the Anduin near the Carrock and easily take the pass for enter Rhudaur. This pass was Thorin and co. initial option to cross the mountains.
molten gold off himself, anyway.



[[folder:Trolls]]
* In the book version, Gandalf keeps the trolls arguing about how to cook the dwarves for what was presumably several hours. Bilbo tries to do this in the film, but only manages to buy a couple extra minutes. This turns out to be enough as the sun rises and the trolls turn to stone. But FridgeLogic dictates that, for this to have worked, sunrise must have already been very close. Even if Bilbo and Gandalf hadn't done anything, the trolls still would have been killed halfway through their meal. Stupid though they might have been, they've presumably managed to avoid the sun all of their lives and should have known it was time to take shelter.
** And also, they discover the ponies are gone when Bilbo goes to take supper to Kili and Fili, which is presumably not long after they made camp, when it wasn't even dark. TimeSkip?
** They DID have a cave very nearby; they may have been intending to cook them quickly and then finish their supper inside before going to bed for the day.
** It's also considerably easier to just write "The trolls were kept arguing for hours" than it is to show it in a movie in a non-tiresome fashion. Just take the medium into account and assume there's some time compression going on.
** The trolls themselves note they should hurry less they want to be turned to stone mid-meal. It's what gives Frodo the idea to stall for time.
** You mean Bilbo, right?
* You're overlooking that in the movie, Gandalf splits a boulder that was obstructing the sun letting it shine freely onto the trolls. So rather than stalling the trolls for hours for the sun to hit them on it's own, they're stalled for minutes, long enough for Gandalf to come in and shine the sun himself.
** Indeed. Likely they camped there specifically 'cos that rock would shield them in the event that the sun came up before they noticed; they could huddle up against it for the day and avoid the direct light hitting them.
* Why are Tom, Bert, and William able to speak when none of the other trolls have the same ability? Furthermore, if the Olog-Hai were only created towards the end of the War of the Ring, then how are the trolls able to be in the sunlight during the Battle of the Five Armies?
** Tom, Bert and William are leftovers from when Tolkien initially conceived of ''The Hobbit'' as a children's fairy tale, and only rewrote it later to fit in with ''The Lord of the Rings''. They don't fit into the larger legendarium of Middle-Earth because they're not really meant to, plot or character-wise.
*** Alternatively, other trolls can talk, but just have nothing to say, as we never see any of them in situations where they'd feel particularly conversational. In fact, they're mostly seen in battles. Also, Tom, Bert and William are explicitly mountain trolls, not cave trolls like the one(s) we see in ''The Fellowship of the Ring''. It's possible different kinds of trolls have differing levels of intelligence and/or speech abilities. In other words, there's lots of reasons why those trolls would speak and others would just growl, yell and roar.
** Look at the trolls across all six movies; they come in a number of different shapes and sizes. Since trolls come in various different breeds anyway it's not that big of a stretch to assume they also have varying intelligence and reaction to sunlight.

to:

[[folder:Trolls]]
* In
[[folder: The Gender Dichotomy in Credits Songs Between the book version, Gandalf keeps Trilogies]]
* Is there any significance to
the trolls arguing about how to cook fact that all the dwarves for what was presumably several hours. Bilbo tries LOTR credits songs were performed by women, and that all ''Film/TheHobbit'' credits songs were sung by men? I'm thinking, some sort of FridgeBrilliance that hasn't yet hit me. Any ideas?
** Could just be
to do this create contrast between the trilogies. The songs in the film, but only manages to buy a couple extra minutes. This turns out to be enough as Hobbit trilogy are sung from the sun rises perspective of male characters, and the trolls turn to stone. But FridgeLogic dictates that, for this to have worked, sunrise must have already been very close. Even if Bilbo and Gandalf hadn't done anything, the trolls still would have been killed halfway through their meal. Stupid though they might have been, they've presumably managed to avoid the sun all songs of their lives and should have known it was time to take shelter.
** And also, they discover the ponies are gone when Bilbo goes to take supper to Kili and Fili, which is presumably not long after they made camp, when it wasn't even dark. TimeSkip?
** They DID have a cave very nearby; they may have been intending to cook them quickly and then finish their supper inside before going to bed for the day.
** It's also considerably easier to just write "The trolls were kept arguing for hours" than it is to show it in a movie in a non-tiresome fashion. Just take the medium into account and assume there's some time compression going on.
** The trolls themselves note they should hurry less they want to be turned to stone mid-meal. It's what gives Frodo the idea to stall for time.
** You mean Bilbo, right?
* You're overlooking that in the movie, Gandalf splits a boulder that was obstructing the sun letting it shine freely onto the trolls. So rather than stalling the trolls for hours for the sun to hit them on it's own, they're stalled for minutes, long enough for Gandalf to come in and shine the sun himself.
** Indeed. Likely they camped there specifically 'cos that rock would shield them in the event that the sun came up before they noticed; they could huddle up against it for the day and avoid the direct light hitting them.
* Why are Tom, Bert, and William able to speak when none of the other trolls have the same ability? Furthermore, if the Olog-Hai were only created towards the end of the War of the Ring, then how are the trolls able to be in the sunlight during the Battle of the Five Armies?
** Tom, Bert and William are leftovers from when Tolkien initially conceived of ''The Hobbit'' as a children's fairy tale, and only rewrote it later to fit in with ''The Lord of the Rings''. They don't fit into the larger legendarium of Middle-Earth because they're not really meant to, plot or character-wise.
*** Alternatively, other trolls can talk, but just have nothing to say, as we never see any of them in situations where they'd feel particularly conversational. In fact, they're mostly seen in battles. Also, Tom, Bert and William are explicitly mountain trolls, not cave trolls like the one(s) we see in ''The
Fellowship and Return of the Ring''. It's possible different kinds King are from Galadriel's perspective. The anomaly being, of trolls have differing levels of intelligence and/or speech abilities. In other words, there's lots of reasons why those trolls would speak and others would just growl, yell and roar.
course, Gollum's song sung by Emiliana Torrini.
** Look at the trolls across all six movies; they come in It was a number of different shapes and sizes. Since trolls come in various different breeds anyway it's not Boy's choir that big of a stretch to assume they also have varying intelligence and reaction to sunlight.sang the Fellowship song.



[[folder:Fellowship prologue discrepancies]]
* In the prologue in the ''Fellowship of the Ring'' film, the Ring is seen bouncing off a cliff in its abandonment of Gollum, Bilbo picks the Ring up, and then Gollum is shrieking about losing his precious. In ''The Hobbit'' film, the Ring falls out of Gollum's pocket, Bilbo finds it a few seconds later, and Gollum doesn't figure out that the Ring is lost/taken by Bilbo until Bilbo's "what I have got in my pocket?" question during the riddle game. Are we supposed to see the inconsistencies as {{Retcon}}s, or is the prologue meant to be a representation of the events and the events in the film are what "really" happened?
** Clearly a representation. After all, Bilbo is no longer being played by Ian Holm in it either, and Gollum looks different.
** The prologue was narrated by Galadriel, who probably never saw Bilbo until he was old, and also didn't entirely know the circumstances, so that was the way she pictured it [[FridgeBrilliance in her head]].

to:

[[folder:Fellowship prologue discrepancies]]
[[folder: Tauriel's Ultimate Fate]]
* In Seriously, what the prologue hell happened to her after the movie? She'd been banished earlier, but her and Thranduil's last interaction would suggest she's forgiven. One of the art books says that they forged a connection in that scene, which would certainly suggest the banishment was revoked; Evangeline Lilly and Lee Pace both assume she went back to Mirkwood, but we don't ''know''. Maddeningly, even the Extended Edition of ''Battle of the Five Armies'' didn't give any closure to her story arc, and since she's a CanonForeigner, there aren't any other materials to draw off of.
** She'd have no reason to return to Mirkwood. Legolas just left to join up with the Dunedain and Kili's just died, so the two men she's had any sort of feelings for are gone. Odds are, she just became a wanderer and remained as such until the end of her long days or she hopped on over to the Grey Havens and took the first boat available to Valinor and never looked back. Either that, or she returned to Mirkwood, fought
in the ''Fellowship War of the Ring'' film, Ring, and either died or survived and left with the Ring is seen bouncing off a cliff in its abandonment rest of Gollum, Bilbo picks her people.
*** Mirkwood has been her home her entire life, though, and she's more than just
the Ring up, sum of feelings for two guys. Presumably she has friends, and then Gollum is shrieking about losing his precious. In ''The Hobbit'' film, Thranduil did kind of raise her (not that that's addressed much in the Ring falls out films themselves). It's unfortunate that nobody behind the camera seems to have realized fans would like to actually know what her eventual fate was, especially since we last see her completely brokenhearted.
*** Tauriel may be strong but an elf's love runs far deeper than any race's, so much that they can die
of Gollum's pocket, Bilbo finds extreme grief caused by a broken heart, The last scene shows her hunched over Kili's body in extreme emotional pain, ("If this is love, I do not want it. Take it a few seconds later, from me, please. Why does it hurt so much?") and Gollum unlike Thranduil and Elrond she doesn't figure out that the Ring is lost/taken by Bilbo until Bilbo's "what I have got any familial ties, obligations or kin to distract her from her mourning. It's not a stretch of imagination to say she would eventually [[DeathByDespair succumb to grief]]. [[WildMassGuessing That could explain]] why there's no mention of her in my pocket?" question during the riddle game. Are we supposed to see the inconsistencies as {{Retcon}}s, or is the prologue meant LOTR.
*** Actually elves seem
to be somewhat solitary creatures even amongst their own kind. Most of them seem to make a representation small handful of friends and keep them for life, and then spend the rest of their lives mourning them if they're lost. It would explain why Thranduil and even Elrond tend to be on the more melancholy side at times... they've been through enough wars to lose more than a few friends, which has left them with an eternal burden of mourning them. Elrond has responded by becoming a bit of a curmudgeon but making new friends, but primarily only among similarly long-lived races, Thranduil seems to have done his best to make himself emotionally distant even from his own son. Tauriel could conceivably be a bit of a loner even among her own kind, and after losing Kili, the one person she'd ever truly opened her heart to, she may have just decided the burden was too much and decided to sail for Valinor.
** Possibly she's the reason why, decades later, there isn't an army of ''spiders'' fighting alongside Sauron's other forces in the War
of the events Ring. If Tauriel can really claim to have a love left at the trilogy's end, it's the forest: if she can't share her life with a guy, she can spend it restoring the Mirkwood to the Greenwood as best she can. So long as Thranduil's foresters don't find and/or report her, she may as well hunt BigCreepyCrawlies and the events in the film are what "really" happened?
** Clearly a representation. After all, Bilbo is no longer being played by Ian Holm in it either, and Gollum looks different.
** The prologue was narrated by Galadriel, who probably never saw Bilbo until he was old, and also didn't entirely know the circumstances, so that was the way she pictured it [[FridgeBrilliance in
trespassing orcs to work through her head]].grief.



[[folder:Frodo and Gandalf]]
* At the start of the film, Frodo tells Bilbo that he hopes to see Gandalf there, to which Bilbo says that he's pretty sure. Next, Frodo says that he's going to the Eastfarthing Woods to surprise Gandalf. Now at the start of ''The Fellowship of the Ring'', Bilbo asks for Frodo to answer the door and exclaims "Where is that boy?!" and appears genuinely surprised to see Gandalf appear at his front door ("You didn't think I'd miss your uncle Bilbo's birthday?"). As cute as the references were, they directly contradict the ''Fellowship'' scenes. The only explanation I can think of is that Bilbo is just plain forgetful, which is pretty much what happens when he's surprised that that day was his birthday ("Is it today?!").
** Does Gandalf shows up at Bilbo's house each year? He is an Istari, one of the wizards watching for the safety of all Middle-Earth, always wandering from here to there. He won't always have some free time to make smoke tricks at the hobbit's parties. So, if he shows up after who knows how many years, it must surely be an unexpected surprise.
** Also if you notice, Bilbo is heavily distracted in that scene... his mind is on his old adventures and structuring them for writing down. Frodo is clearly annoying him with his presence at that point, so he probably wasn't paying much more attention to what he was saying other than to get the boy out of his hair.
** Also this scene, which is in the Theatrical Cut of An Unexpected Journey, ''doesn't'' contradict the Theatrical Cut of ''Fellowship of the Ring''. The first scene of the Theatrical Cut of FOTR (after the Prologue) is the scene of Frodo sitting under the tree reading his book and waiting for Gandalf. When we got Bilbo's introduction later, he didn't mention anything about Frodo or knowing that Gandalf was coming. He just yells at the door for the person to go away. So if you match up the Theatrical Cuts of both films, the scenes actually fit and flow perfectly together. (And there are people out there who do prefer the Theatrical Cuts over the Extended ones). For all we know, (at the moment at least) things could be changed a bit with this scene in the Extended Cut of AUJ and be made to match up a bit more with the Extended Cut of FOTR.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Troll taste]]
* If everything the Trolls eat taste like chicken expect the chicken which tastes like fish, how do they know what chicken tastes like? For that matter, if the fish tastes like chicken, how do they know that chicken tastes like fish?
** They meant that the chicken Bert cooked tasted like fish, so maybe they ate chicken that someone else had cooked.
** Alternative explanation: the trolls are morons and have no idea what they're talking about.
** It's bickering between a group of friends. They're not actually making a scholarly analysis of their taste buds here.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Thorin's heirs]]
* Why are Fíli and Kíli considered Thorin's heirs? Dwarf-women join their husband's houses when they marry, and Fíli and Kíli aren't male-line descendents. Surely they wouldn't be counted in the line of succession.
** Most likely because Thorin has no children of his own, and Fíli and Kíli are the closest in blood-relation to him, even if they aren't technically part of the House of Durin because the line goes through their mother. So, they are most likely his heirs because of the closer blood ties, more than what House they technically belong to or not.
** Tolkien states that many dwarves never marry and even fewer have children, so it makes sense that Thorin would look to his closest blood-relations for heirs, including his sister. He probably isn't the first dwarf of nobility or royalty to never sire children. And even in heavily patrilineal countries, if there were no closely related heirs from the male lineage, it wasn't unheard of for the children of female heiresses to be appointed to the throne.
** Strict patrilinearity may have been judged too unpalatable for a modern audience, or just too difficult to explain within the constraints of a film.
** And in a society where even kings don't necessarily marry, it would make sense if an unwed king without any younger brothers could simply ''proclaim'' that whomever he chooses can be his heirs. In Thorin's case, he chose his nephews.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Stone giants]]
* So what was the deal with the rock monsters? They show up randomly, smash each other, and disappear from the plot forever.
** It's a scene extrapolated from a few lines in the book. While travelling through the Misty Mountains at night, Thorin & co. spot several stone-giants hurling boulders at each other, and decide to hole up in a cave to avoid them.
** In the context of the story, the Stone Giants are most likely one of the many GeniusLoci that haunt various isolated regions of Middle-Earth, like Old Man Willow in the Old Forest or Caradhras elsewhere in the Misty Mountains.
** I always thought of the Old Man Willow as just a particularly twisted tree, like the ones Treebeard and company tend, but the theory fits. The giants clearly exist (I have never understood why so many people keep thinking they are a personalization of a storm, as even Gandalf mentions he will look for a giant to help him obstruct the goblin caves) but don't seem to be "alive" in a classic sense like trolls. They grow from the mountains and fuse with the mountains, so they must be some kind of spirit. In fact, I though of them as part of the "Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi" or the "great host who are the sprites of trees and woods, of dale and forest and '''mountain-side'''". Yep, they are in the legendarium.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Gandalf and the Necromancer]]
* If Gandalf knows unequivocally that the Necromancer is Sauron as of ''Desolation of Smaug'', why is he so surprised that Sauron has returned in ''Fellowship of the Ring''?
** Alzheimers?
** Because they'll undoubtedly banish him rather utterly by the end of ''There and Back Again'' and don't expect him to rise to full power again in a few short decades, especially in his old seat of power at Mordor.
** Also, it wasn't the fact that Sauron was still around that surprised him - "The spirit of Sauron endured", remember? - it was the fact that he'd discovered the One Ring was ''not'' so lost after all, and that Sauron might very well be trying to get it back.
** Exactly right. Gandalf wasn't surprised at all that Sauron was still around/alive; it was the ring being around - in the Shire no less - and that Sauron was looking for it that he didn't know about. So actually, even if they (The White Council) do somehow banish Sauron from Dol Guldur in ''There and Back Again,'' what Gandalf and the others should know is that whatever they do won't get rid of Sauron permanently. That he's still out there somewhere, though they may not know exactly ''where,'' i.e. back in Mordor.
* Gandalf himself admits that most likely there's a trap waiting for him in Dol Guldur... So why does he go there anyway? He should know Sauron is stronger than him, so he has no chance of beating him face-to-face. Why doesn't he wait until the rest of the White Council gets there, so they'd have a better fighting chance? By deciding to go to Dol Guldur alone he achieves nothing except getting himself captured. Shouldn't Gandalf be smarter than that?
** I disagree that "he should know Sauron is stronger than him" - honestly according to everything in the first trilogy, Sauron isn't strong at all, and doesn't act directly - his powers are essentially remote-viewing, and willing other forces of evil to act. Sauron in Desolation demonstrates FAR greater power than he demonstrates in the LOTR trilogy and there's really no explanation for why he gets weaker given - best guess is something Galadriel did in their contest of wills weakened him greatly.
** I don't see how one could ''possibly'' judge Sauron's strength in direct combat from the LOTR film trilogy, because we never see him in such a situation there (outside the prologue). This is more an issue of Sauron's personality than anything; his nature is to lurk in the shadows and use others as his tools as much as possible, not to go out fighting himself (taking the Legendarium as a whole into account, the number of times he's actually depicted as fighting can be counted on one hand, and are always in response to having lost almost all of his minions). In LOTR he doesn't fight not because he's somehow weaker, but because he's got nine Nazgul and hundreds of thousands of men and orcs to do that for him; in ''The Hobbit'', he's responding to what amounts to an invasion of his own home when he's already sent his army away. It's a question of circumstance, not of power. Also, going by the books, keep in mind that the entire Dol Guldur battle was a feint to make the White Council think they'd beaten him, leaving him free to return to Mordor and bring his ''true'' strength to bear...
** Gandalf and Sauron are more or less equal in power so long as Sauron is without the Ring (at which point Sauron becomes more powerful than his mentor, Morgoth), as both are Maiar. The problem is that Gandalf is mandated so that he can't use the full extent of his powers (thus becoming more than capable of pretty much solving Middle-Earth's problems sans Sauron with the Ring on his own), as doing so would lead men to depend on him and become complacent. Also remember that Sauron is sorely weakened by the time he takes refuge in Dol Guldur. The only reason why their fight doesn't end with a draw is to build dramatic tension.
** But obviously Gandalf knows that he can't use his full power against Sauron. And even if he suspects Sauron is weakened, he doesn't know how weak Sauron is. So he enters Dol Guldur not knowing whether or not Sauron is powerful enough to defeat him. So the question remains: why doesn't he wait for the rest of the White Council to arrive there, so they'd have a better chance of defeating Sauron? Sauron has been building his power base in Dol Guldur for ''years'', so waiting for a few days for reinforcements wouldn't really change anything... Yet for some reason Gandalf seems to think it's necessary for him to go there immediately after he gets definite proof that the Necromancer is Sauron.
** Sauron with the Ring is NOT more powerful than Morgoth, not even close. Morgoth was powerful enough to change the landscape and climate of the entire world (he was responsible for creating the polar caps and several mountain ranges, volcanos and underground complexes); he created and bred Orcs by the millions, he created trolls and, more importantly, Dragons. Even with the Ring, the best Sauron could do was erect Barad-dûr, perfect the regular Orc into the Uruk-Hai and the regular Troll into the Olog-Hai, and breed the fell-beast for the Nazgûl 's use.
** Don't get Morgoth confused with Melkor. They're technically the same person, but Middle-earth's first Dark Lord diminished in power greatly over the course of his career. As Melkor, he was the most powerful PhysicalGod on the planet, and the second-most powerful being in the cosmos after [[{{God}} Eru Ilúvatar]], but he underwent canonical VillainDecay, squandering his power in extravagant acts of hate and destruction until by the time he became Morgoth, locked into a single physical form, he was weak enough that Ungoliant was a threat to him, Fingolfin was able to fight and injure him, and Lúthien was able to enchant him. Save the breeding of Dragons (which, though Tolkien gives no info on the precise process, may have been accomplished by using his corrupted Maiar as progenitors and therefore would have needed little to none of Morgoth's personal power) everything you describe was performed by the Great Enemy as Melkor, not Morgoth. When we say "Sauron + Ring > Morgoth, it means that Sauron at his strongest was more powerful than Morgoth at his ''weakest'', not that Sauron outpowered Melkor at the height of his strength.
** There is nothing in Tolkien's writings that suggests than even at his weakest Morgoth may have been less than his servant. Even by the time he had lost much of his power, Morgoth still managed to magically bred a wolf that was quite more powerful than Sauron was in his own wolf-form. Ungoliant being a threat means little since that was after she drank the Trees dry, and it required the entire Balrog host (ech one a Maia like Sauron) to drive her off.
** Nothing in Tolkien's writings? ''Au contrair''. 'Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age, than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not fallen so low. Eventually, he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to control others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had to let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the earth...' ''Morgoth's Ring'', pg 394. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Morgoth's breeding of things like dragons and super-werewolves was part of his ''problem'', or at least symptomatic of his wasteful use of his powers that led to him being drastically weakened (while the only thing Sauron permanently sunk part of himself into was the One Ring, where he could still access it so long as the Ring remained in his possession and which actually ''enhanced'' his power while he wore it). The same text goes on to state that Sauron also likely had a greater knowledge of the Music (and by extension, of the things brought into being by Eru and the other Valar and Maiar) while Morgoth was only really interested in the raw expressions of elemental force that were his own particular domain; therefore as Arda became more defined and settled, Morgoth's knowledge and nature didn't serve him as well as Sauron's did.
** Gandalf still wasn't sure that the Necromancer was Sauron. In the battle he managed to confirm that it was, in fact Sauron, so he didn't achieve "nothing". If he hadn't gone in the "Necromancer" may have managed to keep his identity secret.
** Maybe I'm too cynical, but I assumed he did it to force Saruman's hand. If he just came back with intel, Saruman would stall further. If he's captured alive, it'll take a lot to stop Galadriel (and maybe Elrond) setting off on a rescue mission regardless of Saruman's opinion. That's why he's so adamant that Radagast *must* escape to tell them.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Iron weapons]]
* Specially forged weapons that are good for killing dragons - and the [[spoiler: Black Arrow]] - are made of iron. The trouble is that iron, in and of itself with nothing else added, is not a very good material for weapons, since it can be quite brittle and ideally should be mixed with carbon to make steel, which is much stronger. Admittedly iron does sound better than steel in a fantasy world, but still.
** I think we can assume they have some sort of enchantment on them, like a "+1 dragon-bane weapon" in ''D&D''.
** Cold iron is often the bane of supernatural in mythological settings, usually fairies but plenty of other creatures are also given the weakness, including vampires and werewolves. Dragons can't be that far behind on the list. And maybe the dwarves of Erebor figured out some semi-mystical way of making pure iron incredibly durable?
** It might actually be a case of Elvish work rather than Dwarven. Elves clearly imbue their weapons with magic, which makes those who are evil more vulnerable to their bite. Since Erebor was allied with the elves back in the day, the black arrows may be more powerful not because they’re iron, but because they’re iron ''infused with Elvish magic.'' That would also explain why so few of them were made – Erebor was allied with the Elves, but still not exactly chummy with them, so they only managed to negotiate the making of four of them before Smaug showed up and ripped through the countryside like a weed whacker. Then the Elves just left, and nothing further was ever done about it.
** Dwarves also imbue magic in their weapons. It's in the song: "The Dwarves of yore made mighty spells, where hammers fell like ringing bells".
** Also - in English, iron-carbon alloys with over 2% of carbon in them are called "cast iron" (this troper, whose native language is not English, is at loss as to why). And yes, cast iron can be brittle, depending on its specific composition, but pure iron isn't - it's actually too soft for practical use - carbon content makes it harder and brittler, but to make pure iron you need very sophisticated equipment. Coal has always been used in smelting, and all iron objects contain some carbon.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Smaug and Oakenshield]]
* How does Smaug know that Thorin goes by the name Oakenshield? When talking to Bilbo, Smaug uses the name. But Thorin didn't get that name until after the fall of Erebor, and Smaug had established himself on the hoard by then. Does Smaug subscribe to ''The Rhovanion Gazette''?
** Since he also knew that "darkness is coming", perhaps Sauron made a little visit and updated Smaug on what's been going on in the world in the past few decades. Alternatively the Company may not be the first adventureres who stumbled into his lair.
** "We come to reclaim this hall in the name of Thorin Oakenshield, son of Thráin, son of Thrór, son of -- ohshitohshit ''ohshitohshitohshit''" *flame*
** The orcs call Thorin "Oakenshield", too. It's possible that Smaug has a few orc contacts who report to him on how the world's faring every few years or decades.
* Also, what the hell is a dragon supposed to do with all that gold (besides sleeping in it and pushing Thorin's buttons)? Tolkien never explains this; and seriously, when will we ever see Smaug i.e. going out to a marketplace to spend money? And sure, maybe Smaug having magpie-like tendencies (those tendencies being intensified the bigger the piles of glittering, shiny things are) might be a sufficient explanation as to why he chose to take over Erebor, and one that holds more traction than wanting to spite Thorin and his line -- but no, all we have is him being characterized as being simply drawn to the great wealth that Durin's folk have amassed. And if all he cares about is the gold, why even bother learning the name of Oakenshield at all when Thorin is basically like a tiny, insignificant little speck that he can burn to a crisp like any other being or creature of Middle Earth who dares to cross his path?
** Its in the mythology (both Tolkien's and real Norse and Germanic Mythology that Tolkien took inspiration from) Dragons love treasure, especially gold, they horde it, they sleep on it. They keep it for no other purpose than they want to own it, and anyone who takes but a single piece will incur there wrath. Why? Why do people spend thousands of pounds for works of art that they don't plan to sell on, the feeling of owning it. Smaug's got greed around ten times worse than any Dwarf, to him just owning all that treasure is worth anything it takes to get it (not that he doesn't enjoy that to).
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Smaug's food]]
* Smaug had been holed up in Erebor for decades without being seen by the outside world until Thorin began to doubt he was still even there. What the heck did Smaug eat in all that time? Does he even need to eat? Was he hibernating? I really don't see ''"Smaug eats gold"'' as a viable theory.
** I was always under the impression that Smaug (and dragons in general) did hibernate for extended periods.
** Dragons are supernatural creatures and don't actually need to consume any more food than a Balrog or a Nazgûl does. They only eat for the pleasure of it.
** That depends on whereas dragons are Maiar spirits or not. Even if they did originally start off as "angels", their assumption of a physical form and reproducing an entire physical race would pretty much render them physical beings if Tolkien's "Maiar based orcs alternative origin" explanation holds water.
** May be dragons do eat, but they’re not necessary carnivorous, they may be omnivorous or even herbivorous like the sauropods were or like elephants and whales are. A dragon is a very large animal that would require huge amount of food. Now, we know Smaug doesn’t it people –cause there is a town nearby that haven’t see him in decades- and probably don’t eat animals –you don’t see any big fauna near either-. On the other hand, the environment around the Lonely Mountain seems kind of desertic to me, like with no much flora. My theory is that Smaug feeds from flora and only “eat” meat when killing for territorial reasons or because is omnivorous. Other animals of a similar size like brontosaurs and whales feed similarly. Although I do agree that he probably hibernate for long periods of time.
** Actually, Smaug ''does'' eat people, as he boasts about having devoured the dwarves of Erebor and men of Dale "like a wolf among sheep". However, I'd imagine that he does this as for pleasure/as a terror tactic, since as you point out the fact that Laketown is still standing points towards people not being a mainstay of his diet. Of course, using the needs of real animals to try and figure out Smaug's needs doesn't really work that well, since Middle-Earth dragons are, more-or-less, biological magic-powered war engines bred by the GodOfEvil millennia ago to destroy his enemies- we know that Smaug eats, and that at least sometimes he eats meat, and that's about all we have to go on.
** FridgeLogic + FridgeHorror: Having cooked the population of Erebor, he now has a lifetime supply of Jack Link's Brand Dwarf Jerky stashed somewhere in the mountain.
* It's clearly established in the book that Smaug eats meat (whether or not he ''has'' to is up for debate) - he cheerfully tells Bilbo that he was outside eating the dwarves' ponies (not that the dwarves didn't notice him, but he was pissed off - although it doesn't state that the men from Laketown noticed him until his second hissy fit). I just assumed that he ''did'' leave the mountain from time to time to hunt the countryside for deer and such, but simply ignored Laketown to the point that the humans there stopped worrying about him. It's quite possible that he only has to eat every few days, weeks, or even months, and hates spending time away from his precious gold, so he only hunts for the minimum amount of time necessary before returning to bask in his enourmous wealth. And he is asleep when Bilbo arrives at the beginning of the night (the second time in the book, the only time in the film), but then wakes up and soon tears off happily to destroy Laketown - it's also possible that dragons are nocturnal and he was just waking up for his "morning," well rested and ready to go. And it is night when Smaug awakens from his bad dream and realises that the cup that Bilbo stole is gone (Bilbo's first visit in the book.). Therefore, if Smaug hunts at night, infrequently, and for a limited amount of time, the people of Laketown might not even notice him - especially if he goes out a back door not facing Laketown and stays very near the mountain to keep tabs on his hoard. Plus, he's a dragon with a number of cat-like tendencies - he may be quite stealthy, even if he's not necessarily trying to be.
* The only thing we see Smaug do without someone else disturbing him is lay around on his treasure mound. If we assume that to be representative of his typical behavior then it might be that low levels of activity make him need less food to begin with. He's spent so long in Erebor that people think he might be dead or gone, so it wasn't like he regularly flew around.
** Large predators can be very inconspicuous: dinner's easier to catch if it doesn't see you coming. Flying high enough to be seen a few days' journey away would scare off every herbivore in a similar radius. I'd also imagine that it's easier for a flying dragon to hunt when there's less vegetation. There seem to be open plains (prarie? mammoth steppe?) to the north, so he may prefer to fly off after the herds there rather than try to catch isolated deer or pigs in the scrublands around the Celduin.
** He may also have decided that stirring up the men of Lake Town on a regular basis has got boring, and his life is quieter and easier if he lets them forget about him.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Smaug's alliance]]
* Why ''would'' Smaug ally with Sauron in the first place? There seems to be little that Sauron could actually offer the dragon, at least that Smaug would ''want''; there is no evidence he (Smaug) is interested in ruling over others for instance. Likewise Smaug is powerful enough to seize as much gold and eat as many men/dwarves/elves/hobbits as he likes with Sauron's help. Is this an in-character case of Gandalf underestimating Smaug (he certainly seemed to have a low opinion of the dragon in the first film) and simply assuming Smaug would be DumbMuscle Sauron could trick into his service.
** Well, both Sauron and Smaug have the same master (Melkor, the first Dark Lord), so there is a chance they can broker an alliance. Gandalf is just playing it safe by making sure it will never happen, or else there would be little the forces of good could do to stop them.
** I don't really see Melkor as much of a factor, myself - he's ancient history by the time of the Hobbit[=/LotR=] portion of the cycle, and while Sauron was certainly willing to use Melkor's name to get what he wanted when necessary (see also: the Downfall of Númenor), he didn't seem to owe him real allegiance any longer. I don't see Smaug being particularly inclined to go to war for a long-vanished master either. Rather, I imagine that any Sauron/Smaug alliance would involve some of the most epic bribery ever seen in the history of Middle-Earth, particularly if Sauron's role in the alliance was just to point out targets he wanted destroyed, then pull his armies back and let Smaug do his thing with minimal interference.
** You have a point about Melkor, though I think Sauron at least is still loyal to his wishes. But Smaug would definitely not see having targets to destroy as a downside, but rather as an advantage. It would be less about Sauron inviting him to work, and more like inviting him for a game he enjoys. Anything Smaug could take from Sauron as payment would just be a plus.
** I think you're seriously overestimating Sauron's loyalty to Melkor, which was limited even when he was Melkor's [[TheDragon Dragon]]- he's listed on the DragonWithAnAgenda page for a reason (specifically, Melkor/Morgoth was motivated primarily by spite stemming from being unable to create- and be god of- his own world, while Sauron was motivated by a desire for peace and order that got warped by his pride into a need to control everything). And Smaug is a dragon, pretty much an incarnation of avarice. Why settle for just burning the world, when he can burn the world and get paid outrageously for it at the same time? I can't imagine he wouldn't milk Sauron for all he was worth, even as payment for things he'd have been perfectly willing to do anyway.
** There's also the possibility that Sauron wouldn't get try to Smaug onside through an up-front offer of an alliance, but through sublter manipulation. Kind of Sauron's thing, after all, and Smaug is far from immune to manipulation (even Bilbo manages it in a minor way, after all).
** Smaug himself said that he ''enjoys'' causing pain and suffering almost as much as having gold, heck he let Bilbo live at the end of the second film just so he could suffer as he destroys a small town, and was even tempted to ''let Thorin take the arkenstone'' just to see him become mad with greed. Plus the reason he went to the Dwarf kingdoms was for gold, Sauron could bribe him by saying not only will he give him people to kill for his satisfy his cruelty but also even more gold(as Smaug values every single coin in his hoard). Granted this is an unlikely bribery but Gandalf is GenrySavvy enough to not take the risk in case Murphy's Fourth Law kick in.
** "Hey Smaug! How would you like to add all the gold in Middle-Earth to your treasure horde? If you help me burn down all the Kingdoms of Elves, Dwarves and Men (and who doesn't love burning, destruction and mass murder and all the screaming victims you can eat, AMIRITE?) and I will give you all of their treasure. Don't worry about me! I won't be needing currency in the new order, as I plan to enslave anyone we don't kill. Heck, I'll even force them to mine more gold and jewels and mithril out of the earth and give you even more treasure! By the time I'm done, you'll have a mountain of treasure bigger than Erebor to sleep on. Stick with me, baby! You're going to have so much fun killing every goddamn thing and becoming the richest motherfucking dragon there ever was and will ever be."
** I can't help but draw a possible parallel between Sauron and Smaug's alliance to be just as worse as that of Morgoth and Ungoliant's earlier in the First Age, and Gandalf perhaps didn't want to see something like that happen again.
** The exact wording in "The Quest for Erebor" is "And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect." Two words jump out at me: "might" (Gandalf is not sure that this will happen, but is being cautious), and "use" (he does not foresee an equal alliance, but Sauron controlling Smaug -- by what means, who knows?).
** So Gandalf was really just trying to get rid off a very dangerous loose cannon by killing Smaug? Whether he serves Sauron or not Smaug is still extremely dangerous and needs to die to ensure the safety of the north.
** As a dragon, Smaug is a creature created and thus touched by evil and would be sensitive to Sauron's power. Remember that Gollum was somehow drawn to Mordor where he was captured, while Sauron was consolidating his forces. Smaug would probably be too powerful to be directly controlled by Sauron, but he could use his subtle influence to rouse Smaug from his slumber and awaken a desire to cause massive destruction that would ultimately benefit Sauron's cause.
** Even if Smaug was content with all his gold and the suffering he had already caused, Sauron could offer to fix the spot where Smaug lost a scale. It is doubtful that such a task is beyond the one who forged such powerful rings and would require any attempts to kill him to have more black arrows than are known to exist.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Sauron and Narya]]
* Sauron, who likes to have Rings of Power, takes Gandalf captive, who wears Narya, the Elvish Ring of Fire, and just leaves it on him? Wut.
** Does Sauron even ''know'' Gandalf has Narya? It wasn't exactly common knowledge. Besides, the nature of the Three is such that they were essentially useless to Sauron unless he had the One, and if he ''did'' get the One back it would actually be advantageous for Gandalf to still have Narya, since Sauron could then enslave him.
** Actually, the three Elven rings were uncorrupted by Sauron, so they'd be completely useless to him regardless of having the One (unless he could, somehow, corrupt them after their creation). He could take it from Gandalf in order to make him weaker, but either didn't care, or didn't know.
** Not quite. When the One was first made, the wielders of the Three explicitly ''took them off'' in order to prevent themselves from being dominated, and Galadriel states in ''Fellowship'' (book version) that if Sauron regained the One, he'd be able to perceive her, her thoughts, and everything she'd used Nenya to do and be able to corrupt them at will, and Elrond says much the same at the Council - "it would be better if the Three had never been". Sauron may have never touched the Three, but they were made with the same techniques as the Seven and the Nine and thus would be subject to the One ''only if it's actually being used by Sauron'', but unlike the other Rings they carry no corruption in-and-of themselves.
** Considering Gandalf had no doubt whatsoever that he was walking into a trap, it's possible he didn't bring Narya along at the time, at all.
** For that matter, where does Gandalf keep Narya when we don't see it? Or do I want to know?
** Considering that hardly anyone knew Gandalf had Narya at all, I would not be at all surprised if it didn't have some means of concealing itself. In this particular situation, I imagine one of the Three would also be the ''opposite'' of the One- where the One wants Sauron to find and use it, Narya presumably would want to ''avoid'' being found by Sauron for as long as possible.
** The three Elven Rings must have some way to prevent them from being taken against the bearer's will, since Saruman also fails to take Narya from Gandalf when he captures him (and according to the books he at least suspected that Gandalf had it). Sam can't even see Galadriel's ring in the book, even when she's obviously using it.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Orcs catching up with the Company in Desolation]]
* How did the Orcs catch up with the Company so quickly? The Eagles carried them a fair way away from the confrontation cliff, with not many opportunities for what Wargs were left to track their scent, and yet BAM - opening of the second film the dwarves, Bilbo, and Gandalf are running from the orcs as if the eagle intervention never happened. Admittedly, we don't know how much time passed between the first and second film, but still!
** The eagles didn't carry them more than a few miles and they spent a long time on the Carrock to treat Thorin, and most likely coming down. And the orcs have steeds while the dwarves don't -- steeds that can smell their trail.
** Plus, the second film takes place around nightfall while the end of the first film takes place around midday, and considering that the dwarves don't have steeds, and the Orc's Wargs are at least as fast as horses (if not faster), I'm surprised that the Orcs hadn't caught up ''sooner.''
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Troll bags]]
* So when the trolls truss up the dwarves to eat... did they just happen to have 14 dwarf/hobbit-sized bags with them, or what?
** Maybe they were used for carrying seasonings?
** In the book it was stated that they had a lot of sacks for carrying plunder. Presumably, the explanation is the same for the movie.
** There ''was'' a lot of treasure just dumped on the floor of their cave.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Translating spider language]]
* In ''Desolation of Smaug'', the Spiders in Mirkwood at first only hiss and roar, then Bilbo puts the ring on and we all can hear what they are saying. That's fine, considering the rings' powers and the Spiders' origins, but then Bilbo removes his ring and at least one of the Spiders could still be heard, so what gives?
** My guess would be that either this effect of the Ring's lingers for a short while after one removes it, or it basically "downloads" the language into the wielder's brain so that they can always understand it once the Ring has translated.
** Gollum being able to see Frodo even when the latter was invisible at the end of the quest on Mount Doom seems to back up the idea that the ring's effects linger (and that the longer you have it, the longer it lingers for too).
** Uh? Gollum did not see the invisible Frodo in RotK. What he saw was Frodo's steps on the volcanic ash.
** Once the Ring grants the power to understand the Shadow's servants it apparently doesn't take it away again as long as it is in the bearer's possession, whether worn or not.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Gold Dwarf Statue]]
* Where did the huge golden dwarf statue (which promptly gets melted) come from? Was that something that was under construction when Erebor was being evacuated?
** Yes. The stone plating that got pulled off was the mold, and the point of starting the bellows was to pump all the molten gold into it. Obviously, under normal circumstances, they would have given it longer to cool.
** What confuses me is what exactly Thorin planned to achieve, other than pimping Smaug up with a fabulous golden plating? It would make sense if they at least had a mean to rapidly cool and solidify the gold, thus trapping Smaug in it, but just bath him in it? What, did they expect him to drown in that shallow pool or to burn him to death with it? He's a dragon, he ''breathes'' fire, obviously, [[Series/GameOfThrones fire cannot kill a dragon]]!
** You have a significant amount of acid in your stomach. That does not mean you wouldn't be bothered by it if you got it on your face...
** With the concentrations it's present in it there would do just that - bother me, but definitely not kill me. Which proves my point.
** Yes, and Smaug ''was'' at least bothered by the gold, proving you both right - it knocked him down for several seconds and seemed to cause him pain, even if it didn't affect him significantly. However, did you have any ''other'' suggestions as to what the dwarves should do? There was no way in hell they could engage Smaug in direct combat, and although the water screwed him over briefly as well, they probably figured molten gold had more kick. Thorin doesn't exactly have a chemistry manual with him explaining the exact effect of molten gold on dragons - in fact, there probably isn't any precedent in all of Middle-Earth for what they did. They had few options to begin with, and this seemed to be the best one. I also have to say that if you got the amount of hydrochloric acid that's in your stomach on your face, it might not do a lot of damage - but in Smaug's case, it's more like getting ''entirely covered'' in hundreds of gallons of your stomach acid. While we as viewers can sit back and say, eh, he's a dragon - heat weapons probably won't bother him, Thorin didn't act out of hand.
** Molten gold isn't just incredibly hot, it's incredibly ''heavy''. The dwarves were probably hoping that a flood of molten gold could ''smash'' the dragon forcefully enough to stun him, then suffocate him before he could recover.
** In short, this was the best plan (a desperate plan, at that) Thorin could come up with at the time, and it failed spectacularly.
** Simple. The gold was never meant to burn or boil him, it was meant to ''drown'' him, similar to the smash argument above. That would make more sense. Whether Smaug was immune to the heat of the gold or not, it was liquid. Generally, flooding a living thing with liquid will drown it. Unfortunately, they didn't have enough of a gold river to keep Smaug submerged long enough to pull it off. In that case, still a desperate plan but a somewhat better one.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Barrels]]
* In ''The Desolation Of Smaug'', Bombur (in a barrel) is thrown out from the river, [[SugarWiki/FunnyMoments bounces on a bunch of orcs, then stops and Bombur himself pokes his arms and legs out and attacks the orcs]]. After that, he jumps back into an empty barrel floating down the river. Where did the empty barrel come from?
** The elves apparently toss empty barrels in the river all the time. It's conceivable that one from a previous batch got snagged on a branch or stuck in the mud along the way, and the dwarves' barrels knocked it loose. They'd have put Bilbo in it if they hadn't been too busy battling for their lives.
** Before Bilbo pulled the lever releasing the barrels, you can see some extra empty barrels that were dropped as well, so Bombur most likely jumped into one of those.
** Where did he get all those weapons? I don't remember dwarves arming themselves during the escape and where would they?
** They likely managed to nab a few of the weapons left behind from the dead orcs.
* How the hell did those barrels ''not'' got filled with water and sink? In the book, it was logical - Bilbo put the lids on all the barrels, and the elves dumped them into the river as usual. Here there's just no excuse.
** ...Good question. Blind luck, I guess?
** It's water. If it goes over the edge, it pours inside, simple as that. They'd need a forcefield, not luck, to keep it away.
** The barrels couldn't be filled with water because the dwarves' weight was holding them upright, and them filling up most of the barrels made it so water couldn't get in to make them sink when they first got into the water. Also, they're made of wood. Wood floats unless it's weighed down by a lot.
** Movie physics. The barrels are *far* too low in the water and stable for just the weight of the dwarves to be at work. I think they're probably ballasted with a few hundred-weight of uranium apiece.
** They're Elf barrels. Maybe they're made with some kind of...Elf magic that lets them drain water out even when dumped in a river.
** Definitely that they're Elf barrels--things of Elven make are always full of minor but very handy little magics like that, like the camo effect of the Lothlorien cloaks. That's why Boromir's funeral boat stayed floating and upright after going over the Anduin falls.
** Except they are ''not'' elven-made. Might be a bit clearer in the book than in the movie, but they are from Laketown - the elves trade with the humans, receive things in barrels, then send the empty barrels back down the river. Stop trying to rationalize this; on all accounts, the barrels ''should'' have been closed, but then we couldn't have had the big fight scene, so RuleOfCool I guess.
* How did that huge platform designed to hold numerous barrels tilt under the weight of one measly hobbit?
** RuleOfFunny?
** He was standing at the end, unbalancing it.
** More precisely, if my memory doesn't fail me, he was standing on the long end of a lever, where a smaller force can indeed counterbalance the larger force of the barrels' weight. This is actually probably how it's supposed to be opened in the first place -- though maybe not by standing there, but by a pulley mechanism triggered somewhere else.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Smaug's sense of smell]]
* Smaug is established to have a very good sense of hearing and smell, that he could smell the dwarves while talking to Bilbo, even though they're not inside the mines. How is it that, when escaping the dragon, they were running in a path right underneath the dragon, and Smaug just passed over them? Shouldn't he be able to smell the dwarves there?
** He probably ''did''; Smaug just let them ''think'' he didn't know to give them hope, that he'd crush later.
** Or Erebor's ventilation ducts might've been sending a breeze through the chasm that went in the wrong direction for Smaug to detect their scent.
** Smells aren't instantly updated, or deleted when you move away. There'll be wafts of dwarf-smell all over the place: where they've run in the past, where the breeze has moved it to, where Smaug has stirred up the air currents. Trying to work out where they are now will be horrendously complex. (For a test, get a friend to blindfold you, spin you around on the lawn, then try to find a scented plant that isn't even moving about.)
** Smaug's chamber is where he's been living for 70 years. It probably smells like him now, with new scents attracting his attention, but the rest of the mountain probably still smells like dwarf.
** Then shouldn't he still have been attracted to the unfamiliar scent of Hobbit?
** Personally, I just thought Smaug smelled dwarves, live ones, on Bilbo. Bilbo had been traveling with dwarves for quite some time by then. The general stench of dwarf, however stale, probably in turn helped to hide Bilbo and the dwarves from Smaug.
** Smaug is able to distinguish Bilbo's scent without any trouble - he specifically comments that he doesn't remember smelling Bilbo before. He's also able to smell the One Ring in Bilbo's pocket, so I think it's safe to say that the smell of himself and/or dwarf would have no effect at all. I'm going to go with the 'ventilation breeze' explanation, makes good enough sense to me.
** Goodness knows that mountain has enough ventilation holes to provide DramaticWind at any hour of the day.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Female Dwarves]]
* The first ''Film/{{The Hobbit|An Unexpected Journey}}'' film gives us our first look at female dwarves. Why don't any of them have beards as stated in ''Film/TheTwoTowers''?
** They do, actually. Remarkably feminine beardstyles, too.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Waterproof map]]
* One of the things that Thorin has been taking with him the whole journey was that invaluable map. But how did he manage to go through the whole "barrels in the river" without wetting it? And, on a related question, how did Bilbo managed to keep the ring with him? Zippers do not seem to have been invented yet, and having it in his pocket seems very little protection in such circumstances.
** Both objects are magic. Minor waterproofing and other protection spells are common in fantasy, and the One Ring is ''the One Ring''. It wants to return to Sauron, and it knew Gollum wouldn't help with that, so it left with Bilbo (note the extremely implausible scene where it pretty much leaped onto his finger to save him that first time). Besides, they don't have zippers, but they have buttons for their pockets, which would help.
** There is no indication that the map is magic; the moon runes may be magical, but the map itself is just a map. There is every indication, however, that the map is made of waxed parchment. It takes way more than a little soak to destroy a document like that.
** A leather pouch would also have kept the map reasonably dry.
** Oilcloth and waxed silk are both low tech options, and traditional packaging for dispatches and the like (especially naval orders and post-bags!).
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Laketown Fighting]]
* How come despite Laketown seeming fairly densely populated, nobody responses to the sound of a massive brawl at Bard's home between the orcs and the dwarves, Bard's family and the elves. Sure there are bystanders shown to be shoved aside by the orcs, but otherwise it seems like there's no one in Laketown.
** Maybe Laketown is the kind of place where you don't go out at night to investigate the sounds of a fight.
** This seems right, it's a poverty-stricken town where supplies are tight. Fights are likely common, and might be brutal. To interfere with them could be dangerous, particularly at night. Especially if people look out and see it's Bard's house. They know what the town's master thinks of him, risking interfering could be dangerous, if it was the master's guards attacking the house.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Arrest Bard!]]
* Bard leaves his house and is almost immediately spotted and chased by the Laketown guards, who apparently had orders to arrest him. So why didn't they go to his house to arrest him? Do they not know where he lives? Did he happen to come out just as they were coming to arrest him?
** Maybe they were on their way to his house at the time. Or maybe they expected him to have his own spy network that would warn him if they got close and give him time to escape, so they decided to lie in wait for him elsewhere.
** Chances are he wouldn't willingly open his door for Master's agents. Taking this door down and taking him by force would probably attract way too much commotion; Bard was after all perceived as a leader of many people, or at least a notable person. Openly attacking his house might have started a rebellion, and certainly would empower the opposition. Arresting him on the street is a much less outrageous solution than storming his family's home, despite there being more witnesses.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:The Arkenstone]]
* Does the Arkenstone have a corrupting influence like the Rings of Power do? In the first film it's implied that the discovery of the Arkenstone marked a turning point when Erebor (or at least Thror's mental state) started going downhill, and in the second film Smaug suggests that simply ''having'' the Arkenstone in his possession would corrupt Thorin and drive him mad.
** Symbolically, definitely (there's a sub-narrative about the corrupting effects of greed). If they end up making it literally a corruptive magical item like the One Ring, that would be literalizing something that's best left symbolic, but I wouldn't put it past the filmmakers.
** A more reasonable hypothesis is merely a case of Smaug having an idea of what Thorin's plan was. False hope can be a corrosive thing, and Smaug probably posited that Thorin getting the Arkenstone, gathering all the dwarf armies to him, and then getting them all charbroiled would have crushed Thorin completely, something Smaug would find most agreeable.
** As Balin states, the Arkenstone is the crown jewel and representation of the entire treasure of Erebor. When Thorin sees the vast wealth before him, all of his initial thoughts of rescuing Bilbo are replaced by the thoughts of greed and the Arkenstone. After they reclaimed the mountain, Thorin refuses to part with any of the treasure that he sees as rightfully his, and Balin speculates that the Arkenstone would make him worse.
* On a related note, when the dwarves couldn't find the Arkenstone after so many days of searching, why didn't anyone at least broach the possibility that Smaug might've been ''wearing the thing'' when he flew off to attack Lake-town? Even if the dragon's belly-coating of jewels was downplayed in the movie, the dwarves still knew he had at least ''some'' of his treasure jammed into the gaps between his scales: one of those coins slipped loose and fell right in front of them in the [[DroolHello Clink Hello]] from the previous movie. And if there was anything from his hoard Smaug's greed would've urged him to keep on his own person, 24-7, it's the single most priceless object he's ever laid claim to.
** The Arkenstone is not some small coin or random jewel of Erebor's great treasure, it is as Balin states to be a great white gem that can be recognized the moment you lay eyes upon it. Bilbo, despite being given a vague description of the Arkenstone and discovering there are many white gems that fit the description, was able to find and identify the crown jewel just from the glowing aura. If Smaug was wearing the Arkenstone, the Dwarves would have immediately spot it right on. Not to mention that Smaug considers all of Erebor's treasure to be priceless to him, and [[DisproportionateRetribution would take just as much offense if a single coin were to go missing]].
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Beorn]]
* How does that shackle stay on Beorn's wrist when he transforms? His arms have got to be like three times as thick in his bear-form, right? Shouldn't it have snapped off or crushed all the bones in his wrist the first time he transformed with it on?
** Yeah, I thought that was weird, too. Presumably some kind of magic is involved - if you're taking skin-changers captive, you might enchant the shackle somehow so that it doesn't break or destroy their wrists. Beorn said that they were imprisoned for sport, so it's possible that their torture involved setting up what would essentially be cock fights except with giant bears. Being forced to fight your own family and friends gladiator style would probably be the kind of sadism orcs would enjoy. In which case, the manacles would need to adapt with the skin-changers so that they would remain shackled at all times.
** My question is actually if Beorn got one manacle off, then why does he still have the other? You would think after all this time he would have managed to get the second one off, so maybe he wears it to remember his kin and all they suffered or something.
** Was he ever restrained by both wrists? If it was for a blood sport, he'd fight better if there's just a leash on one wrist.
** That ''would'' make sense. Maybe all he managed to do was break the chain, but the manacle itself was too enchanted to get rid of.
** It depends on how Beorn's shape-changing magic works. Perhaps he's a man with the soul of a bear, and that's why he can become a bear. And that manacle is no longer just a manacle, but a shackle that has been placed on Beorn's soul, symbolic of the pain he's suffered and what he's lost.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:The White Spider]]
* What was that white spider that Bilbo hacks to death? An old giant spider? A baby giant spider (do spiders have larvae)?
** Judging by the way it looked, I would say it wasn't a spider at all. It appeared more like a crab than a spider, with its flat head and crustacean-like covering. I think it was just some other type of bizarre creature that lived in Mirkwood that was disturbed by the huge battle going on outside its hang out and decided to check out what was going on. Why it ''wasn't'' just another spider that Bilbo went Kill Bill on I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that might have been a choice on the part of the filmmakers to both shock the audience but also keep them from losing sympathy for Bilbo. The white creature doesn't actually attack anybody, and what Bilbo does to it is pretty brutal - but it also doesn't speak or show any particular intelligence like the spiders. Not that the spiders are sympathetic, but since they at least talk we get the sense that they're sentient - however, as the aggressors against the heroes, it's okay for them to die from an audience perspective. THIS creature doesn't attack at all, which is what makes Bilbo's impassioned killing of it so shocking, which we wouldn't have gotten had it just been another spider. But since it doesn't display sentience, what Bilbo does is also not quite as horrifying. It's the equivalent of having him ruthlessly slaughter a puppy vs. a toddler. The puppy is shocking and awful, but since it wasn't sentient, we're less likely to turn on the protagonist, even if he was under the influence of something, whereas had it been a sentient toddler, we might stop liking Bilbo. This way, he brutally murders a creature without provocation, but since it didn't act sentient it's not much different from him losing it and murdering a dog, so we're shocked by what he did, but we can still sympathize with him and won't reject him for his actions. That's just a theory.
*** Actually, it rushes at Bilbo with clear intent to attack him. In any case, it's made plain that Bilbo is under the Ring's influence and trying to retrieve it, so we're meant to be shocked at him brutally hacking the thing (a centipede, by the way) to death.
* The hordes of spiders are spawning from Dol Guldur and travelling into Mirkwood. The white spider is a particular spider that inhabits Mirkwood. Besides, Bilbo could understand the other spiders even after losing the Ring, but he couldn't understand the white one. This suggests that it doesn't have more magical origins like the others.
* It was a baby Giant Spider that hadn't gained the ability to speak just yet. Yes, Giant Spiders procreate.
* When I saw it in the film I thought it was a giant mite, but later realized it must be a baby spider.
* It could be a spider that'd molted very recently, so its exoskeleton wasn't as hard or dark as the others'. It looked flattened because its outer skin wasn't sturdy enough to hold its shape yet, and it didn't speak because its sound-producing structures were too soft.
* It's a centipede living in a burrow like a trapdoor spider might. It's difficult to see, but it has a very long body and many more legs than a spider would.
** Its legs and mouthparts are also completely different from the spiders'.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Smaug's jeweled waistcoat]]
* Having seen it twice now--once in theaters, once on Blu-Ray--I still can't quite tell if Smaug has his magnificently armored underbelly. It sparkles a bit at the beginning, but then the close-up is lacking. In the high def, it ''looks'' like he's got some gold coins jammed in his scales there. Is that what's going on?
** It's just a few coins jammed in the cracks of his scales. I can only assume they figured an impenetrable coating of gems and gold would look bizarre in live action.
** Or just unrealistic. Weta Workshop are sticklers for making their creatures seem like they could actually exist in real life. Which is also why they made Smaug a wyvern.
** It also might not have worked well with the drown-the-dragon-in-gold ploy that the dwarves engineered in ''Desolation''. Probably the "waistcoat" would've been scattered when Smaug shook the molten gold off himself, anyway.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Laketown weather]]
* When the Company arrives at Laketown, there's ice floating in the lake and intermittent snow flurries in the air. But this is Durin's Day: late autumn. Much too early for weather that cold. Esgaroth isn't ''that'' far north, at least in comparison to Rivendell or the Shire. What's going on there?
** The western side of continents tends to be milder at that sort of latitude, especially if there's a nice warm current. If we assume the Shire is at roughly the same latitudes as Britain, then Lake Town (which is actually a fair way north of the North Farthing) could easily be somewhere in the Northern Baltic, where fresh water can start to freeze in November. Remember that Shetland is in 60N, and even most of Southern England is north of Toronto.
** The chunks of ice probably floated downstream from the frozen lake where Thorin and Azog duke it out in ''Five Armies''. Also, having it be freezing cold helps to emphasize how badly the survivors of Lake-town are in need of supplies from the elves and of the wealth they'd been promised.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Only one chance to enter Erebor?]]
* Thorin is utterly broken when he thinks they've missed their chance to open the hidden door. But wait, Durin's Day recurs every year. There was nothing to indicate that it had to be that particular year. Sure, it's not ideal to kick around Esgaroth for a year until Durin's Day rolls around again, but it's not like one more year is going to make that much of a difference after some 60-odd years of waiting.
** It makes a difference when there are orcs and wargs trying to eat your ass right now. They're not honestly sure they'll make it through the week if they can't get into Erebor, let alone a year.
** In the book it's clearer: it isn't Durin's Day every year. It only counts if the moon is in the sky during the day, on New Year's Day. The dwarves in exile aren't good enough astronomers to be able to predict when it'll happen again. (I can't calculate to see how often it would happen, but the way they talk about it suggests it's relatively unusual).
** Going on a harrowing quest where you almost die repeatedly, then right when you're there at your goal you think you've missed the chance would leave anyone utterly broken.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Walnut Pillow]]
* Why is Kili resting his head on a bowl of walnuts? Just... why?
** They were out of pecans?
** Óin is a healer for Thorin's Company and stayed behind with Kili. So maybe it some form of Dwarvish Medicine for pain relief?
** Walnuts were believed to have healing powers, for all we know in Middle Earth they DO.
** He's using the bowl as a make-shift head-rest whilst Tauriel heals him. It was onlt the table already and the nearest thing to hand -- simple as that.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: The Fight With Smaug]]
* In the movie, how was the fight not a complete CurbstompBattle? Smaug is a giant dragon, there were several times he could have flash fried them with his fire, but instead chose to chase after them and they just give him the run around. It makes Smaug look less like a terrifying badass and instead like a total joke. Hell, at one point Thorin was casually balancing on his mouth. Why didn't Smaug just open up his mouth and eat him? Problem solved.
** Because of Plot Armor, Character Shields, etc. Maybe Smaug is used to roasting large groups at once and just isn't up to snuff on his small-unit tactics. That whole scene really did make Smaug seem very much not as threatening as he was proclaimed to be by the characters (but then again, the characters aren't infallible), although the CGI and Cumberbatch's voice still made him pretty intimidating.
** Possibly because Smaug himself ''expected'' it to be a complete CurbstompBattle. He enjoyed matching wits with Bilbo and watching him squirm - he probably got a kick out of chasing the dwarves like a cat after a bunch of mice. The idea of Thorin restarting the forges [[DidntSeeThatComing probably didn't even remotely occur to him]], which meant the dwarves had absolutely no way to damage him at all, so he could afford to not crush them right away. (And of course, even after covering him with gold, they ''still'' didn't.) He probably figured he had plenty of time to mess with them before he ate them one by one, and when the dwarves split into groups, he also may have been having trouble deciding who he wanted to eat first - there were thirteen targets, after all, and they were all moving through a changing landscape. Then Thorin started insulting him, which pissed him off enough to cloud his judgement a bit. And when Thorin was on his mouth for those few seconds, he was likely just thinking "What the HELL I have a dwarf on my nose...?" and then Thorin jumped off pretty fast, indicating that he was fully aware that in another second, Smaug would have snapped out of it and opened right up. I also remember them kind of slowing time down for that segment, to make it a bit more theatrical, so Thorin was probably only on Smaug's mouth for a grand total of about two seconds, and it wasn't exactly 'casual.' What makes Smaug a 'terrifying badass' is that even when the dwarves manage some slight wiggle room (running like hell and trying their molten gold idea) they still accomplish nothing but infuriating Smaug and instead of just eating them right there he takes off to burn Laketown so they can watch.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Last Light of Durin's Day]]
* In the movie the last light of Durin's Day is not the sunlight but the moonlight, which doesn't make much sense. How can they have a moon that bright appearing on the West in the evening, a few minutes after sunset? The moon showing up on the West after sunset must be a very narrow crescent moon, and that doesn't provide too much light. I know that this is covered by WeirdMoon, but since Tolkien [[ShownTheirWork did a lot of research]] to get the moon phases right, Peter Jackson's decision is a bit jarring.
** [[AWizardDidIt Tilion Did It.]]
** What is more jarring is that when Elrond reads the runes on the map in the first movie, he actually says "the ''setting Sun'' with the last light of Durin's Day". The second movie shortens it to just "last light of Durin's Day", but then why did Elrond explicitly say "setting Sun"? Did Peter Jackson change his mind between the two movies in how he wants to play the scene out?
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Extended-Edition Possible Plot Hole? *Caution: Unmarked Spoilers*]]
* So, in the Extended Edition, Gandalf finds Thrain alive, albeit traumatized and insane, during his exploration of Dol Guldur. In the book this happens before the main action of the story, and that's when Thrain gives Gandalf the map and the key. But then, at what point did Gandalf get the map and key from Thrain in the movie? It implies that they met at some point previously, which further implies that Gandalf must have known Thrain was alive after the Battle of Azanulbizar, which makes his reaction to Thorin's insistence that his father is alive somewhere a bit strange. What's going on there?
** In the film Thrain gave the key and the map to Gandalf for safekeeping ''before'' going to take Moria with Thror. It's no more complicated than that.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: The Gender Dichotomy in Credits Songs Between the Trilogies]]
* Is there any significance to the fact that all the LOTR credits songs were performed by women, and that all ''Film/TheHobbit'' credits songs were sung by men? I'm thinking, some sort of FridgeBrilliance that hasn't yet hit me. Any ideas?
** Could just be to create contrast between the trilogies. The songs in the Hobbit trilogy are sung from the perspective of male characters, and the songs of Fellowship and Return of the King are from Galadriel's perspective. The anomaly being, of course, Gollum's song sung by Emiliana Torrini.
** It was a Boy's choir that sang the Fellowship song.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Missing weapons in Dale]]
* When the Lakemen are raiding Dale's armoury, we see plenty of well-crafted weapons, including shields and pikes. Yet when the Lakemen show up with the Elven army in front of Erebor, they're carrying makeshift spears and farming equipment. When the battle moves into Dale, only Bard, a couple minor characters, and a handful of men are using swords; everybody else is using the improvised weapons and the shields and spears are nowhere to be seen. Why don't the Lakemen use them?
** Maybe most of them were damaged in Smaug's attack? And even if they had survived fine, they might have had trouble getting to the armoury. And even if the weapons had survived and they could salvage them before the hurried relocation to Dale, there simply might not have had enough to go around.
** The Master clearly had imposed weapons restrictions on the people of Laketown. The armory would've had enough weapons to equip the Master's own guards, but not the whole population.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Tauriel's Ultimate Fate]]
* Seriously, what the hell happened to her after the movie? She'd been banished earlier, but her and Thranduil's last interaction would suggest she's forgiven. One of the art books says that they forged a connection in that scene, which would certainly suggest the banishment was revoked; Evangeline Lilly and Lee Pace both assume she went back to Mirkwood, but we don't ''know''. Maddeningly, even the Extended Edition of ''Battle of the Five Armies'' didn't give any closure to her story arc, and since she's a CanonForeigner, there aren't any other materials to draw off of.
** She'd have no reason to return to Mirkwood. Legolas just left to join up with the Dunedain and Kili's just died, so the two men she's had any sort of feelings for are gone. Odds are, she just became a wanderer and remained as such until the end of her long days or she hopped on over to the Grey Havens and took the first boat available to Valinor and never looked back. Either that, or she returned to Mirkwood, fought in the War of the Ring, and either died or survived and left with the rest of her people.
*** Mirkwood has been her home her entire life, though, and she's more than just the sum of feelings for two guys. Presumably she has friends, and Thranduil did kind of raise her (not that that's addressed much in the films themselves). It's unfortunate that nobody behind the camera seems to have realized fans would like to actually know what her eventual fate was, especially since we last see her completely brokenhearted.
*** Tauriel may be strong but an elf's love runs far deeper than any race's, so much that they can die of extreme grief caused by a broken heart, The last scene shows her hunched over Kili's body in extreme emotional pain, ("If this is love, I do not want it. Take it from me, please. Why does it hurt so much?") and unlike Thranduil and Elrond she doesn't have any familial ties, obligations or kin to distract her from her mourning. It's not a stretch of imagination to say she would eventually [[DeathByDespair succumb to grief]]. [[WildMassGuessing That could explain]] why there's no mention of her in LOTR.
*** Actually elves seem to be somewhat solitary creatures even amongst their own kind. Most of them seem to make a small handful of friends and keep them for life, and then spend the rest of their lives mourning them if they're lost. It would explain why Thranduil and even Elrond tend to be on the more melancholy side at times... they've been through enough wars to lose more than a few friends, which has left them with an eternal burden of mourning them. Elrond has responded by becoming a bit of a curmudgeon but making new friends, but primarily only among similarly long-lived races, Thranduil seems to have done his best to make himself emotionally distant even from his own son. Tauriel could conceivably be a bit of a loner even among her own kind, and after losing Kili, the one person she'd ever truly opened her heart to, she may have just decided the burden was too much and decided to sail for Valinor.
** Possibly she's the reason why, decades later, there isn't an army of ''spiders'' fighting alongside Sauron's other forces in the War of the Ring. If Tauriel can really claim to have a love left at the trilogy's end, it's the forest: if she can't share her life with a guy, she can spend it restoring the Mirkwood to the Greenwood as best she can. So long as Thranduil's foresters don't find and/or report her, she may as well hunt BigCreepyCrawlies and trespassing orcs to work through her grief.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Alfrid do this important thing!]]
* Why would anybody (and Bard in particular) keep trusting Alfrid seemingly important charges like night watch or keeping an eye on people, when he is a well known useless wretch that will scurry away from his duties at the slightiest chance?
** Because everyone remotely competent and trustworthy is doing something even more important.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Two clear bad guys, meh it's nothing]]
* in the prologue/flashback of DoS,who were those two guys in the pub? I would of loved an extended version where it turns out they weren't staring at Thorin but each other.
** They're background scenery to establish the place is not necessarily safe and that Thorin ought to keep what Gandalf is telling and giving him secret.
[[/folder]]

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* Watching this film for the first time in a long time, it occurred to me that the wealth of the dwarves was described visually by showing people of various races trading, eating, wearing fine clothing etc. until the appearance of the Arkenstone, at which point the Dwarf King was shown standing in and enjoying a big pile of gold for the first time. I figured that, before the Arkenstone, the wealth that flowed from Erebor, well, flowed... the riches were spread out into the economy, which is really the best way for riches to make people wealthy. The Arkenstone seems to have been the key in the movie, causing him to start actually hoarding gold for the first time, leading to a, well, hoard that Smaug would be interested in.

Added DiffLines:

** They're background scenery to establish the place is not necessarily safe and that Thorin ought to keep what Gandalf is telling and giving him secret.

Added DiffLines:


[[folder: Two clear bad guys, meh it's nothing]]
* in the prologue/flashback of DoS,who were those two guys in the pub? I would of loved an extended version where it turns out they weren't staring at Thorin but each other.
[[/folder]]


** Some form of Dwarvish Medicine?

to:

** Some Óin is a healer for Thorin's Company and stayed behind with Kili. So maybe it some form of Dwarvish Medicine?Medicine for pain relief?



*** Tauriel may be strong but an elf's love runs far deeper than any race's, so much that they can die of extreme grief caused by a broken heart, The last scene shows her hunched over Kili's body in extreme emotional despair,("If this is love, I do not want it. Take it from me") and unlike Thranduil and Elrond she doesn't have any familial ties, obligations or kin to distract her from her mourning. It's not a stretch of imagination to say she could eventually die of grief. That could explain why there's no mention of her in LOTR.

to:

*** Tauriel may be strong but an elf's love runs far deeper than any race's, so much that they can die of extreme grief caused by a broken heart, The last scene shows her hunched over Kili's body in extreme emotional despair,("If pain, ("If this is love, I do not want it. Take it from me") me, please. Why does it hurt so much?") and unlike Thranduil and Elrond she doesn't have any familial ties, obligations or kin to distract her from her mourning. It's not a stretch of imagination to say she could would eventually die of grief. [[DeathByDespair succumb to grief]]. [[WildMassGuessing That could explain explain]] why there's no mention of her in LOTR.

Added DiffLines:

*** Tauriel may be strong but an elf's love runs far deeper than any race's, so much that they can die of extreme grief caused by a broken heart, The last scene shows her hunched over Kili's body in extreme emotional despair,("If this is love, I do not want it. Take it from me") and unlike Thranduil and Elrond she doesn't have any familial ties, obligations or kin to distract her from her mourning. It's not a stretch of imagination to say she could eventually die of grief. That could explain why there's no mention of her in LOTR.

Added DiffLines:

** Some form of Dwarvish Medicine?

Added DiffLines:

** Also - in English, iron-carbon alloys with over 2% of carbon in them are called "cast iron" (this troper, whose native language is not English, is at loss as to why). And yes, cast iron can be brittle, depending on its specific composition, but pure iron isn't - it's actually too soft for practical use - carbon content makes it harder and brittler, but to make pure iron you need very sophisticated equipment. Coal has always been used in smelting, and all iron objects contain some carbon.

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