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[[folder:Why is resetting a bad thing?]]
* By the opening episode of season 2, Shawn, the overseer of the Bad Place makes it clear to Michael that "there will not be a 3rd attempt". After Michael has already done a second reset. Why is mind wiping 4 bad place residents such a big deal? Wouldn't it be a good idea to occasionally reset people even in a "regulation" bad place with physical torture. After all, wouldn't resetting someone once in a while make them freshly terrified of the tortures, instead of having them get used to the torture at some point?
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*** Regarding this point, recall Michael's attempts to reprogram Janet to have a different personality, as well as her own claims that she is constantly learning and growing as an individual (which turns out to be true [[spoiler: when she gains the ability to love). Presumably reprogramming Janets is a very difficult prospect, to the point where stealing a Good Janet and simply putting in some security locks is an easier prospect than reprogramming a Bad Janet to seamlessly fit into a faux-Good Place.]]
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*The finale reveals that [[spoiler: the four main characters are actually in The Bad Place.]] We therefore have no objective idea of what the "real" Bad Place is like. [[spoiler: All the information we receive comes from non-reliable sources. Even Trevor and his minions were playing a role -- we never see them out of character. In fact, for all we know, Trevor could pass for as benign as RealEleanor or as harmless as Glenn. There is some mention to the traditional concepts of hell during Michael's flashbacks but that's about it.]] When Chidi argues that Eleanor has grown and become a better person from her time in "The Good Place," Michael initially dismisses this *but* [[spoiler: he's evil so obviously wouldn't "really" believe people could change]]. It's possible that in the [[spoiler: actual]] Good Place, there are regular arrivals from other Bad Places of people who have changed and deserve to leave. A consistent theme from the bad guys (especially Trevor when he had drinks with Eleanor) is that bad people can't change. Perhaps we'll see that they can and thus aren't doomed to an eternity of torture.
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***I'm trying to wrap my mind around why "Good" Janet isn't [[spoiler: Bad Janet -- I get the plot necessity for this, but when Michael says in his flashback that the Bad Place had "stolen" a Good Janet, I wondered why it was impossible to program Bad Janet to behave like a Good Janet. Why is that impossible? Michael and Vicky especially are able to pose as perfectly benign people, and Janet isn't even a "person," so Eleanor and the others would likely just dismiss any weirdness from her as She's a Weird Computer.]]
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* Episode 13 implies some things about the theology of who goes where: [[spoilers: our four protagonists share the same basic flaw; extreme self centeredness. Apparently selfishness and lack of empathy are mortal sins.]]
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* Episode Chapter 13 implies some some things about the theology of who goes where: [[spoilers: [[spoiler: our four protagonists share the same basic flaw; extreme self centeredness. Apparently selfishness and lack of empathy are mortal sins.]]
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* Episode 13 implies some things about the theology of who goes where: [[spoilers: our four protagonists share the same basic flaw; extreme self centeredness. Apparently selfishness and lack of empathy are mortal sins.]]
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** Developments in Chapter 13 show that her bragging did bring Tahani down. She did a lot of work for charity but only did it and relentlessly promoted herself because she wanted others, especially her parents, to acknowledge the work she was doing. Her impure intentions completely negated her actions.
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** Developments in Chapter 13 show that [[spoiler: her bragging did bring Tahani down. She did a lot of work for charity but only did it and relentlessly promoted herself because she wanted others, especially her parents, to acknowledge the work she was doing. Her impure intentions completely negated her actions.
actions.]]
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*** Now it all makes sense.....
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** You get your answer in Ep 13. [[spoiler: They're really in the Bad Place so all the points are probably meaningless or at least, highly suspect.]]
* You get your answer in Ep 13. [[spoiler: They're really in the Bad Place and there is indeed a Medium Place.]]
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** You get your answer in Ep 13. [[spoiler: They're really in the Bad Place. Your whole point was intended to be Chidi and Eleanor's Hell for all Eternity.]]
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** You get your answer in Ep 13. [[spoiler: They're really in the Bad Place so they would have probably figured out a way to avert that to cause them harm.]]
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** Episode 13 clears up a lot of this: [[spoiler: It isn't the real Good Place and everyone in it except for Chidi, Eleanor, Tahani, and Jason is fake. Everything we were told about how people are selected for The Good Place is suspect at best and an outright lie at worst, so who knows what the theology is really like?]]
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** Episode Chapter 13 clears up a lot of this: [[spoiler: It isn't the real Good Place and everyone in it except for Chidi, Eleanor, Tahani, and Jason is fake. Everything we were told about how people are selected for The Good Place is suspect at best and an outright lie at worst, so who knows what the theology is really like?]]
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** Episode 13 clears up a lot of this: [[spoiler: It isn't the real Good Place and everyone in it except for Chidi, Eleanor, Tahani, and Jason is fake. Everything we were told about how people are selected for The Good Place is suspect at best and an outright lie at worst, so who knows what the theology is really like?]]
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*** In hindsight, Episode 13 makes it obvious why he never interrogated Janet: [[spoiler: He never had to because there never was any mistake. His "investigation" was just a way to screw with Eleanor.]]
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* Minor nitpick but when the two Eleanors and Chidi (along with Trevor) and they all argue about who should sleep in which bed, and all three are heroically offering to sleep on the couch (or the floor or bathtub), why not just ask Janet to procure a new bed? If she can procure a catus or hot wings, is it that much harder for her to procure a bed? For that matter, why didn't Eleanor ask Janet to rearrange any of the elements she didn't like about her house?
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* Minor nitpick but when the two Eleanors and Chidi (along with Trevor) and they all argue about who should sleep in which bed, and all three are heroically offering to sleep on the couch (or the floor or bathtub), why not just ask Janet to procure a new bed? If she can procure a catus cactus or hot wings, is it that much harder for her to procure a bed? For that matter, why didn't Eleanor ask Janet to rearrange any of the elements she didn't like about her house?
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** Developments in Chapter 13 show that her bragging did bring Tahani down. She did a lot of work for charity but only did it and relentlessly promoted herself because she wanted others, especially her parents, to acknowledge the work she was doing. Her impure intentions completely negated her actions.
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** For the latter point (change the house), I imagine at first it was to avoid suspicion. It was supposed to be designed to be her perfect house so she may have though changing something would look odd. For the former, probably just habit (such as it is); it's not like they're use to the idea that their every need will be catered too (by a all powerful computer thing no less), neverm ind instantly.
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** For the latter point (change the house), I imagine at first it was to avoid suspicion. It was supposed to be designed to be her perfect house so she may have though changing something would look odd. For the former, probably just habit (such as it is); it's not like they're use to the idea that their every need will be catered too (by a an all powerful computer thing no less), neverm ind never mind instantly.
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** Real Eleanor seems to be one of the few folks in the Good Place who actually got down and dirty working with the poor in God forsaken corners of the globe. Most of these people seem to be limousine charity workers who 'raised consciousness' or raised money, like Tahani.
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** I imagine as well that in most normal circumstances, the only reason someone would even be near Janet's kill switch is to intentionally cause harm. After all, why would there even be any sort of unintentional killing in The Good Place.
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* Minor nitpick but when the two Eleanors and Chidi (along with Trevor) and they all argue about who should sleep in which bed, and all three are heroically offering to sleep on the couch (or the floor or bathtub), why not just ask Janet to procure a new bed? If she can procure a catus or hot wings, is it that much harder for her to procure a bed? For that matter, why didn't Eleanor ask Janet to rearrange any of the elements she didn't like about her house?
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[[folder:Why not just have Janet procure a new bed?]]
* Minor nitpick but when the two Eleanors and Chidi (along with Trevor) and they all argue about who should sleep in which bed, and all three are heroically offering to sleep on the couch (or the floor or bathtub), why not just ask Janet to procure a new bed? If she can procure a catus or hot wings, is it that much harder for her to procure a bed? For that matter, why didn't Eleanor ask Janet to rearrange any of the elements she didn't like about her house?
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forgot to move the end folder tag
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* Whyyyyy? Just why? We've learned precious little about the cosmology of the show thus far, but as of episode 9, we know that [[spoiler: everyone who goes there is actively tortured by the asshole equivalents of Michael and Janet.]] Unless the "Immortals" are in no way supernatural, but instead SufficientlyAdvancedAliens operating on BlueAndOrangeMorality, I can't wrap my head around why the people in The Good Place are there while ''literally everyone else''--99.99% of all people who have ever existed--[[spoiler: has to endure an eternity of torture at the hands of stereotypical (and sadistic) frat people.]][[/folder]]
** Then again like the good place there are variations of it and perhaps a mild annoyance once in a while ( similar to Limbo and flies in Dante's Inferno)
** Then again like the good place there are variations of it and perhaps a mild annoyance once in a while ( similar to Limbo and flies in Dante's Inferno)
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* Whyyyyy? Just why? We've learned precious little about the cosmology of the show thus far, but as of episode 9, we know that [[spoiler: everyone who goes there is actively tortured by the asshole equivalents of Michael and Janet.]] Unless the "Immortals" are in no way supernatural, but instead SufficientlyAdvancedAliens operating on BlueAndOrangeMorality, I can't wrap my head around why the people in The Good Place are there while ''literally everyone else''--99.99% of all people who have ever existed--[[spoiler: has to endure an eternity of torture at the hands of stereotypical (and sadistic) frat people.]][[/folder]]
]]
** Then again like the good place there are variations of it and perhaps a mild annoyance once in a while ( similar to Limbo and flies in Dante'sInferno)Inferno)
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** Then again like the good place there are variations of it and perhaps a mild annoyance once in a while ( similar to Limbo and flies in Dante's
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*** One of the things that can make a dystopia [read the Bad Place] is surveillance (for example 1984). I find it interesting that Chidi's blackboard mention Jeremy Bentham as an example of Utilitarianism (although he did stated that it is not always optimal).
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* Whyyyyy? Just why? We've learned precious little about the cosmology of the show thus far, but as of episode 9, we know that [[spoiler: everyone who goes there is actively tortured by the asshole equivalents of Michael and Janet.]] Unless the "Immortals" are in no way supernatural, but instead SufficientlyAdvancedAliens operating on BlueAndOrangeMorality, I can't wrap my head around why the people in The Good Place are there while ''literally everyone else''--99.99% of all people who have ever existed--[[spoiler: has to endure an eternity of torture at the hands of stereotypical (and sadistic) frat people.]][[/folder]]
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* Whyyyyy? Just why? We've learned precious little about the cosmology of the show thus far, but as of episode 9, we know that [[spoiler: everyone who goes there is actively tortured by the asshole equivalents of Michael and Janet.]] Unless the "Immortals" are in no way supernatural, but instead SufficientlyAdvancedAliens operating on BlueAndOrangeMorality, I can't wrap my head around why the people in The Good Place are there while ''literally everyone else''--99.99% of all people who have ever existed--[[spoiler: has to endure an eternity of torture at the hands of stereotypical (and sadistic) frat people.]][[/folder]]]][[/folder]]
** Then again like the good place there are variations of it and perhaps a mild annoyance once in a while ( similar to Limbo and flies in Dante's Inferno)
** Then again like the good place there are variations of it and perhaps a mild annoyance once in a while ( similar to Limbo and flies in Dante's Inferno)
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** Depending on if they factor in context, situation, and intent, one must remember that Tahani spent most of her life being a front woman for charity. This necessitates some amount of 'bragging' and other actions if only to get other people to jump on board. You're not going to give money to someone who won't talk about where and how that money's going to be used, after all.
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Fixed a sentence I mistakenly left incomplete.
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** The above only works if The Bad Place works on a series of levels, a la Dante's Inferno. As of [[spoiler: Episode 9, it is confirmed that yes, they do in fact go out of their way to torture everyone there: both personalized torments and generic torments (four-headed bears, food that turns into spiders when ingested) alike.]] Since it's further confirmed from the start that the vast majority of people who would be quite amicable and open-minded by modern standards, it doesn't quite work to assume that people go to The Bad Place because they're just too set in their ways.
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** The above only works if The Bad Place works on a series of levels, a la Dante's Inferno. As of [[spoiler: Episode 9, it is confirmed that yes, they do in fact go out of their way to torture everyone there: both personalized torments and generic torments (four-headed bears, food that turns into spiders when ingested) alike.]] Since it's further confirmed from the start that the vast majority of people who would be quite amicable and open-minded by modern standards, standards don't make the cut, it doesn't quite work to assume that people go to The Bad Place because they're just too set in their ways.
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Added folder: The Bad Place
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[[folder:The Bad Place]]
* Whyyyyy? Just why? We've learned precious little about the cosmology of the show thus far, but as of episode 9, we know that [[spoiler: everyone who goes there is actively tortured by the asshole equivalents of Michael and Janet.]] Unless the "Immortals" are in no way supernatural, but instead SufficientlyAdvancedAliens operating on BlueAndOrangeMorality, I can't wrap my head around why the people in The Good Place are there while ''literally everyone else''--99.99% of all people who have ever existed--[[spoiler: has to endure an eternity of torture at the hands of stereotypical (and sadistic) frat people.]][[/folder]]
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** The above only works if The Bad Place works on a series of levels, a la Dante's Inferno. As of [[spoiler: Episode 9, it is confirmed that yes, they do in fact go out of their way to torture everyone there: both personalized torments and generic torments (four-headed bears, food that turns into spiders when ingested) alike.]] Since it's further confirmed from the start that the vast majority of people who would be quite amicable and open-minded by modern standards, it doesn't quite work to assume that people go to The Bad Place because they're just too set in their ways.
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* Chidi is actually terrible at ethics and really wants to believe the system is infallible. The fact it's highly-HIGHLY falliable is basically the show's premise.
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** Part of this might also be the band-aid of hell conundrum. Ok, so apparently all religions only got 5% right about how it works, but what I'm also going to go out on a limb for saying that there is also a theory of "forever" that this show borrows some from for when people go to the good or bad place. Namely, that it's not just about being blessed or punished for what you did in life, but about what those deeds will do to you if you're character goes on forever in the same way at the point of death. The fact that Eleanor gets a chance to make herself better is already extraordinary in that sense, but more to the point, part of the reason the bad place IS is because more often than not, the people of the bad place want what they want forever, and will refuse being rescued from themselves. They won't change how they're acting or why they're acting how they're acting, so what else can the people of the good place do? Eleanor's "mix up" and work to become "most improved" is already problematic enough for her part of the good place. So what else could the people of the good place do for the bad place if the people in the bad place would keep hurting others forever? Sure, they could do visits, or exchange programs, but then the rules of this afterlife are a bit wonky as is, so it's hard to say why this hasn't come up at all.
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** Being a vegan still gives a hefty bonus--not bragging just gives you more. Most likely, while Tahani's bragging brought her score down a bit, the massive amount of good she was doing more than made up for it. Besides, she ''did'' have the second lowest score in the neighborhood.
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** Chidi is simply busy with Eleanor. It will be a miracle if he saves her and Jason, he doesn't have time to worry about everyone else. As for why no one else worries about it... yeah. It is odd. Most likely it's actually a plot point. Michael's dismissal seems like it's setting it up for later. It also feeds into his ridiculously horrific "retirement." On the other hand, when we finally do see people from the Bad Place, they don't seem ''that'' bad. Very very petty evil, yes, but not "rend the flesh from your bones because you were a bitch" kind of evil. Maybe there are different layers of the Bad Place, so Eleanor is going to a section that is basically like being alive but more annoying, while Hitler is in the deepest depths getting the worst tortures anyone can come up with.
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[[folder:Why is are Chidi's actions treated as murder?]]
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** Because it would draw attention to them, and when more problems occurred, Michael would zero in straight on Eleanor. Chidi also explicitly ascribes to the belief that all lying is bad. Eleanor was barely able to convince him to hide the truth, but he simply doesn't have enough experience lying to come up with half-truths like that.
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** Yes, she is. Well, sort of. She explicitly says no one can see anyone's search history, so that makes it clear that there are some things she can't tell Michael. Maybe asking Janet questions about the neighbors is forbidden (outside of basic location data). Or maybe Michael is just terrible at asking the right questions.
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** In the early 00's, the Trail Blazers were nicknamed the "Jail Blazers" because they had a number of people with bad raps on the team and had a poor relationship with the community. This era ended with the trades of the 2003-2004 season (Rasheed Wallace's trade away from Portland led to a championship for Detroit that year) so it makes this a much less familiar touchstone of cultural knowledge and writers rooms usually liked to avoid that, so maybe they're not specifically referring to the Jail Blazers and it's a coincidence.
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[[folder:How did Bragging not bring Tahani down?]]
* If bragging is specifically listed as a fairly big negative (it says "never discussed veganism unprompted" is worth +9884.8), then how did Tahani make the cut? Tahani is a very good person but she does toot her own horn quite a bit and the number of times you repeat an action is multiplied by the value of the action, so that should have impacted Tahani's score quite a bit?
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[[folder:Why would ethical people not worry about the fact that most of humanity is being tortured?]]
* Michael says "don't worry about it" when explaining the fates to everyone who's not in Heaven. How could someone like Chidi just be content with eternal torture for everyone who didn't clear such an impossible bar as being the top 0.1% of humanity. As an ethics professor who's stomach squirms with Eleanor's sins, how could he not get worked up about that? For that matter why doesn't Heaven have a bit of a higher capacity?
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[[folder:Why is Chidi's actions treated as murder?]]
*It was heroic manslaughter at best.
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[[folder:Why aren't Chidi and Eleanor cognizant of half-truths]]
*In the murder instance, they could say "we thought if we stopped Janet it could save you from leaving which is good for the community." In the episode with the garbage, Eleanor could have said to Michael, "It happened because I finished clearing out the trash too early and wanted to fly. Sorry, it won't happen again." You can say those things without revealing anything and everything.
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[[folder:Is Janet sworn to secrecy?]]
*I'm assuming either she is or Michael never thinks to interrogate Janet.
[[folder:How did Bragging not bring Tahani down?]]
* If bragging is specifically listed as a fairly big negative (it says "never discussed veganism unprompted" is worth +9884.8), then how did Tahani make the cut? Tahani is a very good person but she does toot her own horn quite a bit and the number of times you repeat an action is multiplied by the value of the action, so that should have impacted Tahani's score quite a bit?
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[[folder:Why would ethical people not worry about the fact that most of humanity is being tortured?]]
* Michael says "don't worry about it" when explaining the fates to everyone who's not in Heaven. How could someone like Chidi just be content with eternal torture for everyone who didn't clear such an impossible bar as being the top 0.1% of humanity. As an ethics professor who's stomach squirms with Eleanor's sins, how could he not get worked up about that? For that matter why doesn't Heaven have a bit of a higher capacity?
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[[folder:Why is Chidi's actions treated as murder?]]
*It was heroic manslaughter at best.
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[[folder:Why aren't Chidi and Eleanor cognizant of half-truths]]
*In the murder instance, they could say "we thought if we stopped Janet it could save you from leaving which is good for the community." In the episode with the garbage, Eleanor could have said to Michael, "It happened because I finished clearing out the trash too early and wanted to fly. Sorry, it won't happen again." You can say those things without revealing anything and everything.
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[[folder:Is Janet sworn to secrecy?]]
*I'm assuming either she is or Michael never thinks to interrogate Janet.
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New entries on the bottom.
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[[folder:Portland Trail Blazers]]
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* The theology is interesting to say the least. Clearly the principle of Justification by Works applies and only the most spectacular works count. Just being honest, honorable and a good family person clearly is not enough. On the other hand if this 'Good Place' is any sample I'd rather go to the 'Bad Place' then spend eternity with this bunch of righteous folks.
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** The vast majority of the human race is in the Bad Place. Janet only brought it up as a random trivia fact. It seems like they were barred due to not being good enough, in contrast to Columbus, who was banned for committing heinous crimes.
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[[folder:Theology]]
* The theology is interesting to say the least. Clearly the principle of Justification by Works applies and only the most spectacular works count. Just being honest, honorable and a good family person clearly is not enough. On the other hand if this 'Good Place' is any sample I'd rather go to the 'Bad Place' then spend eternity with this bunch of righteousfolks.folks.
** That's not quite right. ''Every'' act is accounted for, from eating a sandwich to reading a trashy magazine. It seems that most people do enough good and bad in their lifetimes that it evens out and they don't make the cut. It usually takes extraordinary actions to get in. Chidi is evidence of an exception, however. He didn't do anything particularly special in life, he just did a lot of low-level good as a college professor and never did anything bad to drag his score down.
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[[folder:Theology]]
* The theology is interesting to say the least. Clearly the principle of Justification by Works applies and only the most spectacular works count. Just being honest, honorable and a good family person clearly is not enough. On the other hand if this 'Good Place' is any sample I'd rather go to the 'Bad Place' then spend eternity with this bunch of righteous
** That's not quite right. ''Every'' act is accounted for, from eating a sandwich to reading a trashy magazine. It seems that most people do enough good and bad in their lifetimes that it evens out and they don't make the cut. It usually takes extraordinary actions to get in. Chidi is evidence of an exception, however. He didn't do anything particularly special in life, he just did a lot of low-level good as a college professor and never did anything bad to drag his score down.
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* Okay, I gotta know. Why is EVERY member of the Portland Trail Blazers in The Bad Place? I mean, it's not like the Yankees where so many of the rest of Baseball hates them and hence you lose good points for it. Why are the Trail Blazers of all teams [[BarredFromTheAfterlife barred from the good place]]?
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* Okay, I gotta know. Why is EVERY member of the Portland Trail Blazers in The Bad Place? I mean, it's not like the Yankees where so many of the rest of Baseball hates them and hence you lose good points for it. Why are the Trail Blazers of all teams [[BarredFromTheAfterlife barred from the good place]]?place]]?
* The theology is interesting to say the least. Clearly the principle of Justification by Works applies and only the most spectacular works count. Just being honest, honorable and a good family person clearly is not enough. On the other hand if this 'Good Place' is any sample I'd rather go to the 'Bad Place' then spend eternity with this bunch of righteous folks.
* The theology is interesting to say the least. Clearly the principle of Justification by Works applies and only the most spectacular works count. Just being honest, honorable and a good family person clearly is not enough. On the other hand if this 'Good Place' is any sample I'd rather go to the 'Bad Place' then spend eternity with this bunch of righteous folks.
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* Okay, I gotta know. Why is EVERY member of the Portland Trail Blazers in The Bad Place? I mean, it's not like the Yankees where so many of the rest of Baseball hates them and hence you lose good points for it. Why are the Trail Blazers of all teams [[BarredFromTheAfterlife barred from the good place]]?
