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* Well, first of all, nothing could be more untrue than "She takes responsibility for that decision and accepts it as her own." Anne claims, "I have now, as far as such a sentiment is allowable in human nature, nothing to reproach myself with." She gives all the responsibility of the bad advice to Lady Russell and takes pride in taking bad advice like a best friend (or, possibly, a woman) ought to do, in her eyes. What I don't understand is the DoubleStandard - how a woman whom the text treats as a ProperLady can be accepted, whereas Fanny Price is misinterpreted disowned because of that. If people like Anne, more power to them, but why not Fanny Price as well? Why praise one ProperLady and not the other? Why like the book that deliberately, explicitly, brutally punishes the SpiritedYoungLady (Louisa Musgrove) for being stubborn, lively, active, and unwomanly, but hate another book simply for having a heroine who is not a SpiritedYoungLady? Responses will say the latter is disliked for other reasons, but that is the one people always mention first.

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* Well, first of all, nothing could be more untrue than "She takes responsibility for that decision and accepts it as her own." Anne claims, "I have now, as far as such a sentiment is allowable in human nature, nothing to reproach myself with." She gives all the responsibility of the bad advice to Lady Russell and takes pride in taking bad advice like a best friend (or, possibly, a woman) ought to do, in her eyes. What I don't understand is the DoubleStandard - how a woman whom the text treats as a ProperLady can be accepted, whereas Fanny Price is misinterpreted disowned because of that. If people like Anne, more power to them, but why not Fanny Price as well? Why praise one ProperLady and not the other? Why like the book that deliberately, explicitly, brutally punishes the SpiritedYoungLady (Louisa Musgrove) for being stubborn, lively, active, and unwomanly, but hate another book simply for having a heroine who is not a SpiritedYoungLady? Spirited Young Lady? Responses will say the latter is disliked for other reasons, but that is the one people always mention first.



** There is no fan war, there's just a completely unconscious DoubleStandard. 1 of Austen's ProperLady heroines is her least popular, and the first reason given is because she's the ProperLady rival of a SpiritedYoungLady, whereas another of her ProperLady heroines is still popular despite being a ProperLady. Janeites can consider the context and ValuesDissonance in the case of one but not the other. They see one as a nauseating example of feminine passivity and submission but not the other who actually explicitly advocates feminine submission.

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** There is no fan war, there's just a completely unconscious DoubleStandard. 1 of Austen's ProperLady heroines is her least popular, and the first reason given is because she's the ProperLady rival of a SpiritedYoungLady, Spirited Young Lady, whereas another of her ProperLady heroines is still popular despite being a ProperLady. Janeites can consider the context and ValuesDissonance in the case of one but not the other. They see one as a nauseating example of feminine passivity and submission but not the other who actually explicitly advocates feminine submission.


*** Besides, it's entirely appropriate for Anne's CharacterDevelopment to be in the nature of self-acceptance than radical personality overhaul. Fanny (lesson: You Matter) is eighteen, Emma and Elizabeth (You Are Not Always Right) are about 20; Marrianne and Kitty (Life Is Not Like Books) are about 17. Elinor (... I don't know, Don't Give Up?) is about 20. Anne, on the other hand, is 27, an age where the personality is pretty much 'fixed'. (She's also probably had a bit of BreakTheCutie to deal with anyway.) (It may also be why she has her fans- the proof that you don't need to be a teenager to get a happy ending.) The moral You Still Have A Lot To Look Forward To and You Are Who You Are So Learn To See the Positive Side of Your Characteristics is perfectly appropriate. (There is an emphasis in the novel on seeing the good and bad side of characteristics. Louisa's 'strong will' and failure to check against reality (like is a guy whose arms you want to jump into actually aware you're going to do so?) are positive and negative sides of the same characteristic. Anne tries to please everyone- which is impossible, especially when it comes to knowing her own mind, but she's not a bad person for trying. Anne thinks Lady Russel is a caring mentor- Wentworth thinks she's a BelovedSmother; neither are exactly wrong. And Anne adores Wentworth's charismatic, willful, daredevil personality- Lady Russel thinks he's got no hope of succeeding in the Navy because of it- or that it's going to get him killed- or if it doesn't, he's bad husband material, at least for a timid girl like Anne. And can you blame her? If you consider other men in Austen to whom the above apply, she's not even WrongGenreSavy!

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*** Besides, it's entirely appropriate for Anne's CharacterDevelopment to be in the nature of self-acceptance than radical personality overhaul. Fanny (lesson: You Matter) is eighteen, Emma and Elizabeth (You Are Not Always Right) are about 20; Marrianne and Kitty (Life Is Not Like Books) are about 17. Elinor (... I don't know, Don't Give Up?) is about 20. Anne, on the other hand, is 27, an age where the personality is pretty much 'fixed'. (She's also probably had a bit of BreakTheCutie to deal with anyway.) (It may also be why she has her fans- the proof that you don't need to be a teenager to get a happy ending.) The moral You Still Have A Lot To Look Forward To and You Are Who You Are So Learn To See the Positive Side of Your Characteristics is perfectly appropriate. (There is an emphasis in the novel on seeing the good and bad side of characteristics. Louisa's 'strong will' and failure to check against reality (like is a guy whose arms you want to jump into actually aware you're going to do so?) are positive and negative sides of the same characteristic. Anne tries to please everyone- which is impossible, especially when it comes to knowing her own mind, but she's not a bad person for trying. Anne thinks Lady Russel is a caring mentor- Wentworth thinks she's a BelovedSmother; [[MyBelovedSmother Beloved Smother]]; neither are exactly wrong. And Anne adores Wentworth's charismatic, willful, daredevil personality- Lady Russel thinks he's got no hope of succeeding in the Navy because of it- or that it's going to get him killed- or if it doesn't, he's bad husband material, at least for a timid girl like Anne. And can you blame her? If you consider other men in Austen to whom the above apply, she's not even WrongGenreSavy!WrongGenreSavvy!



It's also compeltely absurd for Anne to claim that the giver of advice and not the outcome justifies heeding to it; [[Literature/PrideAndPrejudice Elizabeth Bennett]] thought otherwise once but eventually found herself wishing that Bingley had the strength of mind to follow his heart regardless of how close he was to the friend (Mr. Darcy) who advised otherwise. Friends, no matter how much you admire them, can be wrong. Talk about ProtagonistCenteredMorality; whatever Anne Elliot does is right.

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It's also compeltely completely absurd for Anne to claim that the giver of advice and not the outcome justifies heeding to it; [[Literature/PrideAndPrejudice Elizabeth Bennett]] thought otherwise once but eventually found herself wishing that Bingley had the strength of mind to follow his heart regardless of how close he was to the friend (Mr. Darcy) who advised otherwise. Friends, no matter how much you admire them, can be wrong. Talk about ProtagonistCenteredMorality; whatever Anne Elliot does is right.


** Breaking the engagement was wrong both from the passionate ''and'' moral points of view. From a passionate point of view, it's foolish not to marry someone just because it would mean a decrease in luxury; Wentworth wasn't penniless 8 years ago, just not wealthy. Anne wouldn't have been in the position of, say, Henry James' Maggie by marrying him! From a moral point of view, it's wrong to reject someone just because of a difference in class and rank and the displeasure of a friend, and those ''were'' the only obstacles.
** Firstly, I think you're wildly misunderstanding the objections to Wentworth that were laid out in Chapter 4. His 'class' isn't a problem, because he and Anne are from the same 'class'- the Gentry. Baronettes are members of the gentry. So are officers of the Royal Navy. Wentworth's brother and father are clergymen. He's a gentleman.

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** Breaking the engagement was wrong both from the passionate ''and'' moral points of view. From a passionate point of view, it's foolish not to marry someone just because it would mean a decrease in luxury; Wentworth wasn't penniless 8 years ago, just not wealthy. Anne wouldn't have been in the position of, say, Henry James' Maggie by marrying him! From a moral point of view, it's wrong to reject someone just because of a difference in class and rank and the displeasure of a friend, and those ''were'' the only obstacles.
**
obstacles.\\
\\
Firstly, I think you're wildly misunderstanding the objections to Wentworth that were laid out in Chapter 4. His 'class' isn't a problem, because he and Anne are from the same 'class'- the Gentry. Baronettes are members of the gentry. So are officers of the Royal Navy. Wentworth's brother and father are clergymen. He's a gentleman.\\
\\


* Breaking the engagement was wrong both from the passionate ''and'' moral points of view. From a passionate point of view, it's foolish not to marry someone just because it would mean a decrease in luxury; Wentworth wasn't penniless 8 years ago, just not wealthy. Anne wouldn't have been in the position of, say, Henry James' Maggie by marrying him! From a moral point of view, it's wrong to reject someone just because of a difference in class and rank and the displeasure of a friend, and those ''were'' the only obstacles.\\

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* ** Breaking the engagement was wrong both from the passionate ''and'' moral points of view. From a passionate point of view, it's foolish not to marry someone just because it would mean a decrease in luxury; Wentworth wasn't penniless 8 years ago, just not wealthy. Anne wouldn't have been in the position of, say, Henry James' Maggie by marrying him! From a moral point of view, it's wrong to reject someone just because of a difference in class and rank and the displeasure of a friend, and those ''were'' the only obstacles.\\


*** It probably doesn't have to, for its original audience. ViewersareGeniuses, or rather, viewers do not live in a radically different society to the writer.

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*** It probably doesn't have to, for its original audience. ViewersareGeniuses, ViewersAreGeniuses, or rather, viewers do not live in a radically different society to the writer.



Breaking the engagement was wrong both from the passionate ''and'' moral points of view. From a passionate point of view, it's foolish not to marry someone just because it would mean a decrease in luxury; Wentworth wasn't penniless 8 years ago, just not wealthy. Anne wouldn't have been in the position of, say, Henry James' Maggie by marrying him! From a moral point of view, it's wrong to reject someone just because of a difference in class and rank and the displeasure of a friend, and those ''were'' the only obstacles.\\

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* Breaking the engagement was wrong both from the passionate ''and'' moral points of view. From a passionate point of view, it's foolish not to marry someone just because it would mean a decrease in luxury; Wentworth wasn't penniless 8 years ago, just not wealthy. Anne wouldn't have been in the position of, say, Henry James' Maggie by marrying him! From a moral point of view, it's wrong to reject someone just because of a difference in class and rank and the displeasure of a friend, and those ''were'' the only obstacles.\\





*** Too bad Anne doesn't see it that way; her justification in the final chapter isn't that it would have been unreasonable for them to marry under the circumstances 8 years ago (she says ''absolutely nothing about that'') but specifically that she was right to take a friend's advice purely because it was a friend's advice - period. That's her justification: that it's a proper woman's duty to yield to persuasion. If such an unreasonable excuse was unnecessary due to other circumstances surrounding the engagement, that makes it all the more {{anvilicious}}. Plus, the reasonable response in such a situation is to tell someone to wait until it's more practical for the two of you to marry, not break the engagement; when Anne was 19, she didn't tell Wentworth they needed to wait until they were better off financially but unequivocally ended the engagement. The fact that Wentworth didn't come back two years later simply means that (like [[PrideAndPrejudice Mr. Darcy]] and [[Literature/SenseAndSensibility Colonel Brandon]]) he knows how to take "No" for an answer. What, was he supposed to adopt Mr. Collins' translation of female behavior and not take a "No" seriously? How would it not be egotistical to assume his suit would be perfectly welcome an indefinite number of years in the future? Did women[[note]]female troper here[[/note]] still expect men to be mind readers 200 years ago?

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*** Too bad Anne doesn't see it that way; her justification in the final chapter isn't that it would have been unreasonable for them to marry under the circumstances 8 years ago (she says ''absolutely nothing about that'') but specifically that she was right to take a friend's advice purely because it was a friend's advice - period. That's her justification: that it's a proper woman's duty to yield to persuasion. If such an unreasonable excuse was unnecessary due to other circumstances surrounding the engagement, that makes it all the more {{anvilicious}}. Plus, the reasonable response in such a situation is to tell someone to wait until it's more practical for the two of you to marry, not break the engagement; when Anne was 19, she didn't tell Wentworth they needed to wait until they were better off financially but unequivocally ended the engagement. The fact that Wentworth didn't come back two years later simply means that (like [[PrideAndPrejudice [[Literature/PrideAndPrejudice Mr. Darcy]] and [[Literature/SenseAndSensibility Colonel Brandon]]) he knows how to take "No" for an answer. What, was he supposed to adopt Mr. Collins' translation of female behavior and not take a "No" seriously? How would it not be egotistical to assume his suit would be perfectly welcome an indefinite number of years in the future? Did women[[note]]female troper here[[/note]] still expect men to be mind readers 200 years ago?



It's also compeltely absurd for Anne to claim that the giver of advice and not the outcome justifies heeding to it; [[PrideAndPrejudice Elizabeth Bennett]] thought otherwise once but eventually found herself wishing that Bingley had the strength of mind to follow his heart regardless of how close he was to the friend (Mr. Darcy) who advised otherwise. Friends, no matter how much you admire them, can be wrong. Talk about ProtagonistCenteredMorality; whatever Anne Elliot does is right.

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It's also compeltely absurd for Anne to claim that the giver of advice and not the outcome justifies heeding to it; [[PrideAndPrejudice [[Literature/PrideAndPrejudice Elizabeth Bennett]] thought otherwise once but eventually found herself wishing that Bingley had the strength of mind to follow his heart regardless of how close he was to the friend (Mr. Darcy) who advised otherwise. Friends, no matter how much you admire them, can be wrong. Talk about ProtagonistCenteredMorality; whatever Anne Elliot does is right.


*** Here's the RealLife history of ''Persuasion''- in her early 20s, JaneAusten was made, and accepted, an offer of marriage from a man who had an ample fortune, who it is generally assumed she was not unfond of. The next morning she broke it off, saying that she couldn't leave her mother (recently widowed) and her sister (who had recently been bereaved of her own fiance)- reasons that seem to be genuine. She never received another offer; ''Persuasion'' was written when she was in her early 40s, and dying from a then-unexplained problem (adrenal gland failure, actually). Whether it's ''about'' that, is a little unlikely, but it just illustrates that Austen had female attachments- albeit by blood- that were that intense herself.

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*** Here's the RealLife history of ''Persuasion''- in her early 20s, JaneAusten Creator/JaneAusten was made, and accepted, an offer of marriage from a man who had an ample fortune, who it is generally assumed she was not unfond of. The next morning she broke it off, saying that she couldn't leave her mother (recently widowed) and her sister (who had recently been bereaved of her own fiance)- reasons that seem to be genuine. She never received another offer; ''Persuasion'' was written when she was in her early 40s, and dying from a then-unexplained problem (adrenal gland failure, actually). Whether it's ''about'' that, is a little unlikely, but it just illustrates that Austen had female attachments- albeit by blood- that were that intense herself.


Creator/CSLewis wrote in his essay "Notes on Jane Austen" that he's surprised the label of "prig" has been misapplied to [[MansfieldPark Fanny Price]] rather than Anne Elliot, as Fanny never lectures anyone or tries to tell them how to behave or change, whereas Anne does. I'm with him. What do fans find so attractive in Anne that doesn't exist in Fanny: stoicism, TheUnfavorite status, suffering, loneliness, high sense of morality, silent perseverance, knowing "the pains of tyranny, of ridicule, and neglect"? I sincerely want to know what crucial detail I'm missing.

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Creator/CSLewis wrote in his essay "Notes on Jane Austen" that he's surprised the label of "prig" has been misapplied to [[MansfieldPark [[Literature/MansfieldPark Fanny Price]] rather than Anne Elliot, as Fanny never lectures anyone or tries to tell them how to behave or change, whereas Anne does. I'm with him. What do fans find so attractive in Anne that doesn't exist in Fanny: stoicism, TheUnfavorite status, suffering, loneliness, high sense of morality, silent perseverance, knowing "the pains of tyranny, of ridicule, and neglect"? I sincerely want to know what crucial detail I'm missing.



** Not the old "Fanny Price represents rest and passivity" picture again! MansfieldPark, Ch. 12: "...while all the other young people were dancing, and [Fanny] sitting, '''''most unwillingly''''', among the chaperons at the fire, longing for the re-entrance of her elder cousin, on whom all her own hopes of a partner then depended. It was Fanny's first ball... It had, however, been a very happy one to Fanny through four dances, and '''''she was quite grieved to be losing even a quarter of an hour.'''''" Not to mention her love of riding and grief over losing the freedom to ride, her grief to lose her active role as the big sister when she first leaves Portsmouth at age 10, her aid to Susan (financially and otherwise) as the sympathetic big sister in a dysfunctional household, and returning to help Edmund take charge when all Hell breaks loose at Mansfield (you take your brother, I'll take my aunt). Whenever Fanny is still and inactive, it's by compulsion, and she hates it (no doubt the plight of many a woman in those times...). Fanny insists just as strongly on her right not to marry Mr. Crawford as Anne does on her right to visit Mrs. Smith. Fanny is not only active but ''assertive'', whereas Anne's greatest virtue is supposedly that she is ''not'' assertive, and yields to persuasion. The scene at Lyme that is supposed to show off her power and justify all her fellow characters constantly singing her praises thereafter is executed too absurdly to succeed in that goal. Anne's superior powers of judgement are praised for this scene, but Fanny's superior powers of judgement for seeing Henry Crawford for the HandsomeLech he proves to be are not = inconsistency. Hell, that very scene at Lyme preaches with the subtlety of a speeding freight train that "Women shouldn't be active, or they'll be brutally punished and physically restrained from ever being so active again!" Women must yield to persuasion, and men must be firm = Persuasion (evidenced by Wentworth stating ''he'' should have been more firm with Louisa - men have to be firm with women because they're too stupid to make their own decisions, unless their wise enough to always yield to others' judgement). Women deserve the right to make their own decisions regardless of males' persuasion = Mansfield Park. If Anne herself is active but preaches yielding to persuasion as women's duty (her final speech to that effect is too sincere to be ironic), she's even more of a hypocrite.

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** Not the old "Fanny Price represents rest and passivity" picture again! MansfieldPark, Literature/MansfieldPark, Ch. 12: "...while all the other young people were dancing, and [Fanny] sitting, '''''most unwillingly''''', among the chaperons at the fire, longing for the re-entrance of her elder cousin, on whom all her own hopes of a partner then depended. It was Fanny's first ball... It had, however, been a very happy one to Fanny through four dances, and '''''she was quite grieved to be losing even a quarter of an hour.'''''" Not to mention her love of riding and grief over losing the freedom to ride, her grief to lose her active role as the big sister when she first leaves Portsmouth at age 10, her aid to Susan (financially and otherwise) as the sympathetic big sister in a dysfunctional household, and returning to help Edmund take charge when all Hell breaks loose at Mansfield (you take your brother, I'll take my aunt). Whenever Fanny is still and inactive, it's by compulsion, and she hates it (no doubt the plight of many a woman in those times...). Fanny insists just as strongly on her right not to marry Mr. Crawford as Anne does on her right to visit Mrs. Smith. Fanny is not only active but ''assertive'', whereas Anne's greatest virtue is supposedly that she is ''not'' assertive, and yields to persuasion. The scene at Lyme that is supposed to show off her power and justify all her fellow characters constantly singing her praises thereafter is executed too absurdly to succeed in that goal. Anne's superior powers of judgement are praised for this scene, but Fanny's superior powers of judgement for seeing Henry Crawford for the HandsomeLech he proves to be are not = inconsistency. Hell, that very scene at Lyme preaches with the subtlety of a speeding freight train that "Women shouldn't be active, or they'll be brutally punished and physically restrained from ever being so active again!" Women must yield to persuasion, and men must be firm = Persuasion (evidenced by Wentworth stating ''he'' should have been more firm with Louisa - men have to be firm with women because they're too stupid to make their own decisions, unless their wise enough to always yield to others' judgement). Women deserve the right to make their own decisions regardless of males' persuasion = Mansfield Park. If Anne herself is active but preaches yielding to persuasion as women's duty (her final speech to that effect is too sincere to be ironic), she's even more of a hypocrite.



I just don't really understand why this novel gets such a lashing when it seems to be the most minimalistic and digressive of all of Austen's works. Look, this is my perspective, and hopefully someone can tell me where I've gone wrong. Anne regrets a decision that she made eight years ago on the persuasion of a friend. She doesn't regret the advice she took, or blame the person who gave it, but she still finds the outcome painful, even though at the time she thought she was acting in everyone's best interests. She takes responsibility for that decision and accepts it as her own. However, both she and her partner are still hurt by this - Wentworth acting very coldly to her - and it takes them eight years to finally get back together, with both fully realising the mistake that she made. Neither of them apologise for what has happened because to apologise so long after the fact would be to trivialise the suffering they've gone through, and disrespect the diverging paths they've travelled to come to where they are. Saying sorry at this point is like saying "I broke the dam, here's a plank of wood to fix it" - no apology can be sufficient or exact so there's no point. Throughout the entire novel Anne is the definition-specific of the ProperLady; she helps others out, keeps a clear head, and despite not being valued by those around her, she still helps them out and gives them advice. In no way is she idealised and perfect like [[MansfieldPark Fanny Price]], or strong and resilient like [[PrideAndPrejudice Lizzie Bennet]], but no where does she fit the criteria of a CanonSue; she has flaws and they are played out through the story. The entire novel is about the deconstruction of the idea of persuasion, what can count as advice, how much one person really has the right to influence another, and what does it mean for one individual to be influenced to change their mind. The vessel that is used for this deconstruction is the long-estranged love of Anne and Wentworth, showing that although persuasion is circumstantial, another's opinion cannot be counted on as a substitute for your own judgement... otherwise karma bitch-slaps you and makes you waste 8 years of your life. So... why is there such an upwelling of criticism? I'm not saying that this is Oscar Wilde, but it's still a decent novel, and I just don't know why all the hate? I just don't get it. In addition, this is I think the only Austen novel that analyses and lays bare the reality of English society for women, shown not under the faux-glow presented in the romanticised and glamorous-minded points-of-view of young women in their late teens or early twenties, who see only the shining attraction, but shown through the eyes of an older realist who sees the grit and dirt rubbed into a bourgeois society on the cusp of decay. This is the ''only'' Austen book that does this! Come on, people! Tell me what I'm missing here!

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I just don't really understand why this novel gets such a lashing when it seems to be the most minimalistic and digressive of all of Austen's works. Look, this is my perspective, and hopefully someone can tell me where I've gone wrong. Anne regrets a decision that she made eight years ago on the persuasion of a friend. She doesn't regret the advice she took, or blame the person who gave it, but she still finds the outcome painful, even though at the time she thought she was acting in everyone's best interests. She takes responsibility for that decision and accepts it as her own. However, both she and her partner are still hurt by this - Wentworth acting very coldly to her - and it takes them eight years to finally get back together, with both fully realising the mistake that she made. Neither of them apologise for what has happened because to apologise so long after the fact would be to trivialise the suffering they've gone through, and disrespect the diverging paths they've travelled to come to where they are. Saying sorry at this point is like saying "I broke the dam, here's a plank of wood to fix it" - no apology can be sufficient or exact so there's no point. Throughout the entire novel Anne is the definition-specific of the ProperLady; she helps others out, keeps a clear head, and despite not being valued by those around her, she still helps them out and gives them advice. In no way is she idealised and perfect like [[MansfieldPark [[Literature/MansfieldPark Fanny Price]], or strong and resilient like [[PrideAndPrejudice [[Literature/PrideAndPrejudice Lizzie Bennet]], but no where does she fit the criteria of a CanonSue; she has flaws and they are played out through the story. The entire novel is about the deconstruction of the idea of persuasion, what can count as advice, how much one person really has the right to influence another, and what does it mean for one individual to be influenced to change their mind. The vessel that is used for this deconstruction is the long-estranged love of Anne and Wentworth, showing that although persuasion is circumstantial, another's opinion cannot be counted on as a substitute for your own judgement... otherwise karma bitch-slaps you and makes you waste 8 years of your life. So... why is there such an upwelling of criticism? I'm not saying that this is Oscar Wilde, but it's still a decent novel, and I just don't know why all the hate? I just don't get it. In addition, this is I think the only Austen novel that analyses and lays bare the reality of English society for women, shown not under the faux-glow presented in the romanticised and glamorous-minded points-of-view of young women in their late teens or early twenties, who see only the shining attraction, but shown through the eyes of an older realist who sees the grit and dirt rubbed into a bourgeois society on the cusp of decay. This is the ''only'' Austen book that does this! Come on, people! Tell me what I'm missing here!



* I think people are confused about what unsettles them about MansfieldPark, really. (Actually, this is the only place where I've seen Persuasion get the sort of angry bashing that it does- okay, so Creator/CSLewis didn't like it (and perhaps that's justification to some people...) but generally people just enjoy it, and if literature professors actually dislike certain moral ideas, then, well, if you're going to read classic literature you have to accept all sorts of moral ideas you find unpalatable. Possibly the popularity of the work actually brings in the sort of people who expect a 'good' book to be one where they agree with the heroine on every point.)

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* I think people are confused about what unsettles them about MansfieldPark, Literature/MansfieldPark, really. (Actually, this is the only place where I've seen Persuasion get the sort of angry bashing that it does- okay, so Creator/CSLewis didn't like it (and perhaps that's justification to some people...) but generally people just enjoy it, and if literature professors actually dislike certain moral ideas, then, well, if you're going to read classic literature you have to accept all sorts of moral ideas you find unpalatable. Possibly the popularity of the work actually brings in the sort of people who expect a 'good' book to be one where they agree with the heroine on every point.)


Sorry, this turned into such a long thing, but I think this hate is a little ridiculous and also WAAAAY over estimates the amount of power and control upper-class women had at this time and ignores that Anne is a subject to emotional abuse (just like Franny, though both are subject to COMPLETELY different situations and really shouldn't be compared to one another, or any of Jane Austen's other heroines).
TO CONCLUDE: Anne has come to the belief that a woman she considers her mother and whom she highly respects was wrong in her advice because this woman is a human being who is bad at judging character. Anne comes to terms with this by thinking that there was no fault in following the advice because she didn't know better, but has come to learn that Lady Russell was wrong (because she's shit at character assessment). She showed loyalty to her mother-figure, which she admits is no bad thing (cause it isn't), but she is realizes that the advice in itself was wrong

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Sorry, ***Sorry, this turned into such a long thing, but I think this hate is a little ridiculous and also WAAAAY over estimates the amount of power and control upper-class women had at this time and ignores that Anne is a subject to emotional abuse (just like Franny, though both are subject to COMPLETELY different situations and really shouldn't be compared to one another, or any of Jane Austen's other heroines).
TO ***TO CONCLUDE: Anne has come to the belief that a woman she considers her mother and whom she highly respects was wrong in her advice because this woman is a human being who is bad at judging character. Anne comes to terms with this by thinking that there was no fault in following the advice because she didn't know better, but has come to learn that Lady Russell was wrong (because she's shit at character assessment). She showed loyalty to her mother-figure, which she admits is no bad thing (cause it isn't), but she is realizes that the advice in itself was wrong


*** I honestly do not know why Anne, a 19 yr old girl who listened to her mother figure, is getting so much hate. This deference to a parent figure over a boyfriend is treated like a terrible thing, when it's not, especially for the time. And at the end is more her coming to terms with that decision that has drastically shaped her life, not really being contradictory at all. The novel neither defends wielding to persuasion nor being super strong-willed, but, in my opinion, advocates a healthy mix of both. Anne is rather thoroughly "punished" over the 8 yr interval through the pain for being so easily persuaded (which she does know is partly her fault) and Louisa is "punished" for her carelessness and stubbornness. But neither are portrayed as awful people, and are treated rather nicely by the novel. Both of their primary personality traits are given their due and the pros and cons of both are examined. I would say that moderation in personality, rather than going to extremes, is a big portion of the novel (seeing as Anne figures that Benwick and Louisa are going to grow more alike in temperament, which is seen as a good thing for both of them). I personally think that her final resolution at the novel about her decision has more to do with recognizing that Lady Russell is not infallible (see, Parents as People) and that she can have her own opinions, which is a realization that she had to learn the hard way. She states that she would never give the same advice to anyone who asked her, because the advice was wrong. But she could not have known this, remember, it is stated in the novel that Wentworth was very lucky and that this was a decision that life afterwards was going to decide the merits of. For all she would have known, it could have ruined both of them, and she had been convinced of it by someone she respected. Remember, in the novel it is implied by her father that she would have gotten no help from him, but it is said that the engagement would have still endured if it hadn't been for Lady Russell (again someone whom she loved and relied upon and very much respected). So it's not much that Anne wielded because that's a woman's duty, because if she did her father's veto would have been enough, but rather because she loved and valued Lady Russell's opinion. But since that time she has learned that the advice she had received was incorrect and it caused her pain. Anne learns through her life that she can have very different opinions than Lady Russell and it is stated repeatedly that she has long since learned that they can have differing opinions because Lady Russell isn't perfect (PARENTS AS PEOPLE) and that she is in fact, a pretty terrible judge of character (reference how badly judged both Wentworth and Elliot) and Anne has realized this and has begun to make her own judgments on people (see how Anne is ALWAYS suspicious of Mr. Elliot, while most everyone else of her family and party love him immediately). I think that she has a rather strong mind and character and that it's come from learning all of the above lessons. At the end of the novel, remember that her father still doesn't completely approve and it takes time for Lady Russell to approve, showing that she has grown and is not so easily persuaded just on other people's opinions as she was when she was 19. She's learned that it isn't always a good thing to wield to others opinions BECAUSE EVEN THOSE YOU LOVE CAN BE WRONG WHICH IS HER LEARNING FROM HER MISTAKE. Wentworth doesn't really apologize at the end. He's has re-realized Anne's fine points during his time with her and has probably realized that she had made some good arguments (and like Anne, more regrets the time lost than anything else-as when he realizes that he could have written to her and she would have written back). He doesn't so much apologize for anything rather than disagree with her on following the advice. They both (by the end of the novel) believe that the other is perfection itself though, so this disagreement hasn't really done anything. Neither of them really apologize and neither of them really have to. On both sides no intentional harm was done and both, I think, are trying to make amends with a bad part of their lives in the best way possible. Wentworth doesn't see himself as ever have being unworthy (and as Anne has never seen his equal, I'm going to say neither did she) and saw himself as being ill-used (though early in the novel it is stated that he has also never seen Anne's equal, showing that he didn't see her as undeserving either-at least unconsciously). Frederick sees her as wrong as wielding to her Lady Russell (which, the alternative would have been wielding to him, which while more "romantic" would have been problematic as well. Personally, I'm rather a fan that Austen has a woman-woman relationship and a mother-daughter relationship outweigh a romantic attachment and I think it reflects how highly she valued family-which she did) and Anne sees it as right (at this point in time, they both regret the time lost, why make it more painful by regretting the action, which was, at the time and to the best of her judgment?). Neither EVER saw the other as undeserving (I literally just read this book yesterday, she references as never have seeing his equal and that all men just fail when compared-this view of Wentworth is enough to quench her desire to run her ancestral home, something that she really, really wanted. And guess what ya'll money was-and still is-an important factor into marrying and Anne and Lady Russell weren't stupid or greedy or selfish in worrying about this-it's not like women had an extraordinary amount of opportunity in this time and marrying could and did decide the entire financial future of a woman).

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*** ** I honestly do not know why Anne, a 19 yr old girl who listened to her mother figure, is getting so much hate. This deference to a parent figure over a boyfriend is treated like a terrible thing, when it's not, especially for the time. And at the end is more her coming to terms with that decision that has drastically shaped her life, not really being contradictory at all. The novel neither defends wielding to persuasion nor being super strong-willed, but, in my opinion, advocates a healthy mix of both. Anne is rather thoroughly "punished" over the 8 yr interval through the pain for being so easily persuaded (which she does know is partly her fault) and Louisa is "punished" for her carelessness and stubbornness. But neither are portrayed as awful people, and are treated rather nicely by the novel. Both of their primary personality traits are given their due and the pros and cons of both are examined. I would say that moderation in personality, rather than going to extremes, is a big portion of the novel (seeing as Anne figures that Benwick and Louisa are going to grow more alike in temperament, which is seen as a good thing for both of them). I personally think that her final resolution at the novel about her decision has more to do with recognizing that Lady Russell is not infallible (see, Parents as People) and that she can have her own opinions, which is a realization that she had to learn the hard way. She states that she would never give the same advice to anyone who asked her, because the advice was wrong. But she could not have known this, remember, it is stated in the novel that Wentworth was very lucky and that this was a decision that life afterwards was going to decide the merits of. For all she would have known, it could have ruined both of them, and she had been convinced of it by someone she respected. Remember, in the novel it is implied by her father that she would have gotten no help from him, but it is said that the engagement would have still endured if it hadn't been for Lady Russell (again someone whom she loved and relied upon and very much respected). So it's not much that Anne wielded because that's a woman's duty, because if she did her father's veto would have been enough, but rather because she loved and valued Lady Russell's opinion. But since that time she has learned that the advice she had received was incorrect and it caused her pain. Anne learns through her life that she can have very different opinions than Lady Russell and it is stated repeatedly that she has long since learned that they can have differing opinions because Lady Russell isn't perfect (PARENTS AS PEOPLE) and that she is in fact, a pretty terrible judge of character (reference how badly judged both Wentworth and Elliot) and Anne has realized this and has begun to make her own judgments on people (see how Anne is ALWAYS suspicious of Mr. Elliot, while most everyone else of her family and party love him immediately). I think that she has a rather strong mind and character and that it's come from learning all of the above lessons. At the end of the novel, remember that her father still doesn't completely approve and it takes time for Lady Russell to approve, showing that she has grown and is not so easily persuaded just on other people's opinions as she was when she was 19. She's learned that it isn't always a good thing to wield to others opinions BECAUSE EVEN THOSE YOU LOVE CAN BE WRONG WHICH IS HER LEARNING FROM HER MISTAKE. Wentworth doesn't really apologize at the end. He's has re-realized Anne's fine points during his time with her and has probably realized that she had made some good arguments (and like Anne, more regrets the time lost than anything else-as when he realizes that he could have written to her and she would have written back). He doesn't so much apologize for anything rather than disagree with her on following the advice. They both (by the end of the novel) believe that the other is perfection itself though, so this disagreement hasn't really done anything. Neither of them really apologize and neither of them really have to. On both sides no intentional harm was done and both, I think, are trying to make amends with a bad part of their lives in the best way possible. Wentworth doesn't see himself as ever have being unworthy (and as Anne has never seen his equal, I'm going to say neither did she) and saw himself as being ill-used (though early in the novel it is stated that he has also never seen Anne's equal, showing that he didn't see her as undeserving either-at least unconsciously). Frederick sees her as wrong as wielding to her Lady Russell (which, the alternative would have been wielding to him, which while more "romantic" would have been problematic as well. Personally, I'm rather a fan that Austen has a woman-woman relationship and a mother-daughter relationship outweigh a romantic attachment and I think it reflects how highly she valued family-which she did) and Anne sees it as right (at this point in time, they both regret the time lost, why make it more painful by regretting the action, which was, at the time and to the best of her judgment?). Neither EVER saw the other as undeserving (I literally just read this book yesterday, she references as never have seeing his equal and that all men just fail when compared-this view of Wentworth is enough to quench her desire to run her ancestral home, something that she really, really wanted. And guess what ya'll money was-and still is-an important factor into marrying and Anne and Lady Russell weren't stupid or greedy or selfish in worrying about this-it's not like women had an extraordinary amount of opportunity in this time and marrying could and did decide the entire financial future of a woman).


** I honestly do not know why Anne, a 19 yr old girl who listened to her mother figure, is getting so much hate. This deference to a parent figure over a boyfriend is treated like a terrible thing, when it's not, especially for the time. And at the end is more her coming to terms with that decision that has drastically shaped her life, not really being contradictory at all. The novel neither defends wielding to persuasion nor being super strong-willed, but, in my opinion, advocates a healthy mix of both. Anne is rather thoroughly "punished" over the 8 yr interval through the pain for being so easily persuaded (which she does know is partly her fault) and Louisa is "punished" for her carelessness and stubbornness. But neither are portrayed as awful people, and are treated rather nicely by the novel. Both of their primary personality traits are given their due and the pros and cons of both are examined. I would say that moderation in personality, rather than going to extremes, is a big portion of the novel (seeing as Anne figures that Benwick and Louisa are going to grow more alike in temperament, which is seen as a good thing for both of them).
I personally think that her final resolution at the novel about her decision has more to do with recognizing that Lady Russell is not infallible (see, Parents as People) and that she can have her own opinions, which is a realization that she had to learn the hard way. She states that she would never give the same advice to anyone who asked her, because the advice was wrong. But she could not have known this, remember, it is stated in the novel that Wentworth was very lucky and that this was a decision that life afterwards was going to decide the merits of. For all she would have known, it could have ruined both of them, and she had been convinced of it by someone she respected. Remember, in the novel it is implied by her father that she would have gotten no help from him, but it is said that the engagement would have still endured if it hadn't been for Lady Russell (again someone whom she loved and relied upon and very much respected). So it's not much that Anne wielded because that's a woman's duty, because if she did her father's veto would have been enough, but rather because she loved and valued Lady Russell's opinion. But since that time she has learned that the advice she had received was incorrect and it caused her pain. Anne learns through her life that she can have very different opinions than Lady Russell and it is stated repeatedly that she has long since learned that they can have differing opinions because Lady Russell isn't perfect (PARENTS AS PEOPLE) and that she is in fact, a pretty terrible judge of character (reference how badly judged both Wentworth and Elliot) and Anne has realized this and has begun to make her own judgments on people (see how Anne is ALWAYS suspicious of Mr. Elliot, while most everyone else of her family and party love him immediately). I think that she has a rather strong mind and character and that it's come from learning all of the above lessons. At the end of the novel, remember that her father still doesn't completely approve and it takes time for Lady Russell to approve, showing that she has grown and is not so easily persuaded just on other people's opinions as she was when she was 19. She's learned that it isn't always a good thing to wield to others opinions BECAUSE EVEN THOSE YOU LOVE CAN BE WRONG WHICH IS HER LEARNING FROM HER MISTAKE.
Wentworth doesn't really apologize at the end. He's has re-realized Anne's fine points during his time with her and has probably realized that she had made some good arguments (and like Anne, more regrets the time lost than anything else-as when he realizes that he could have written to her and she would have written back). He doesn't so much apologize for anything rather than disagree with her on following the advice. They both (by the end of the novel) believe that the other is perfection itself though, so this disagreement hasn't really done anything. Neither of them really apologize and neither of them really have to. On both sides no intentional harm was done and both, I think, are trying to make amends with a bad part of their lives in the best way possible. Wentworth doesn't see himself as ever have being unworthy (and as Anne has never seen his equal, I'm going to say neither did she) and saw himself as being ill-used (though early in the novel it is stated that he has also never seen Anne's equal, showing that he didn't see her as undeserving either-at least unconsciously). Frederick sees her as wrong as wielding to her Lady Russell (which, the alternative would have been wielding to him, which while more "romantic" would have been problematic as well. Personally, I'm rather a fan that Austen has a woman-woman relationship and a mother-daughter relationship outweigh a romantic attachment and I think it reflects how highly she valued family-which she did) and Anne sees it as right (at this point in time, they both regret the time lost, why make it more painful by regretting the action, which was, at the time and to the best of her judgment?). Neither EVER saw the other as undeserving (I literally just read this book yesterday, she references as never have seeing his equal and that all men just fail when compared-this view of Wentworth is enough to quench her desire to run her ancestral home, something that she really, really wanted. And guess what ya'll money was-and still is-an important factor into marrying and Anne and Lady Russell weren't stupid or greedy or selfish in worrying about this-it's not like women had an extraordinary amount of opportunity in this time and marrying could and did decide the entire financial future of a woman).

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** *** I honestly do not know why Anne, a 19 yr old girl who listened to her mother figure, is getting so much hate. This deference to a parent figure over a boyfriend is treated like a terrible thing, when it's not, especially for the time. And at the end is more her coming to terms with that decision that has drastically shaped her life, not really being contradictory at all. The novel neither defends wielding to persuasion nor being super strong-willed, but, in my opinion, advocates a healthy mix of both. Anne is rather thoroughly "punished" over the 8 yr interval through the pain for being so easily persuaded (which she does know is partly her fault) and Louisa is "punished" for her carelessness and stubbornness. But neither are portrayed as awful people, and are treated rather nicely by the novel. Both of their primary personality traits are given their due and the pros and cons of both are examined. I would say that moderation in personality, rather than going to extremes, is a big portion of the novel (seeing as Anne figures that Benwick and Louisa are going to grow more alike in temperament, which is seen as a good thing for both of them). \n I personally think that her final resolution at the novel about her decision has more to do with recognizing that Lady Russell is not infallible (see, Parents as People) and that she can have her own opinions, which is a realization that she had to learn the hard way. She states that she would never give the same advice to anyone who asked her, because the advice was wrong. But she could not have known this, remember, it is stated in the novel that Wentworth was very lucky and that this was a decision that life afterwards was going to decide the merits of. For all she would have known, it could have ruined both of them, and she had been convinced of it by someone she respected. Remember, in the novel it is implied by her father that she would have gotten no help from him, but it is said that the engagement would have still endured if it hadn't been for Lady Russell (again someone whom she loved and relied upon and very much respected). So it's not much that Anne wielded because that's a woman's duty, because if she did her father's veto would have been enough, but rather because she loved and valued Lady Russell's opinion. But since that time she has learned that the advice she had received was incorrect and it caused her pain. Anne learns through her life that she can have very different opinions than Lady Russell and it is stated repeatedly that she has long since learned that they can have differing opinions because Lady Russell isn't perfect (PARENTS AS PEOPLE) and that she is in fact, a pretty terrible judge of character (reference how badly judged both Wentworth and Elliot) and Anne has realized this and has begun to make her own judgments on people (see how Anne is ALWAYS suspicious of Mr. Elliot, while most everyone else of her family and party love him immediately). I think that she has a rather strong mind and character and that it's come from learning all of the above lessons. At the end of the novel, remember that her father still doesn't completely approve and it takes time for Lady Russell to approve, showing that she has grown and is not so easily persuaded just on other people's opinions as she was when she was 19. She's learned that it isn't always a good thing to wield to others opinions BECAUSE EVEN THOSE YOU LOVE CAN BE WRONG WHICH IS HER LEARNING FROM HER MISTAKE.
MISTAKE. Wentworth doesn't really apologize at the end. He's has re-realized Anne's fine points during his time with her and has probably realized that she had made some good arguments (and like Anne, more regrets the time lost than anything else-as when he realizes that he could have written to her and she would have written back). He doesn't so much apologize for anything rather than disagree with her on following the advice. They both (by the end of the novel) believe that the other is perfection itself though, so this disagreement hasn't really done anything. Neither of them really apologize and neither of them really have to. On both sides no intentional harm was done and both, I think, are trying to make amends with a bad part of their lives in the best way possible. Wentworth doesn't see himself as ever have being unworthy (and as Anne has never seen his equal, I'm going to say neither did she) and saw himself as being ill-used (though early in the novel it is stated that he has also never seen Anne's equal, showing that he didn't see her as undeserving either-at least unconsciously). Frederick sees her as wrong as wielding to her Lady Russell (which, the alternative would have been wielding to him, which while more "romantic" would have been problematic as well. Personally, I'm rather a fan that Austen has a woman-woman relationship and a mother-daughter relationship outweigh a romantic attachment and I think it reflects how highly she valued family-which she did) and Anne sees it as right (at this point in time, they both regret the time lost, why make it more painful by regretting the action, which was, at the time and to the best of her judgment?). Neither EVER saw the other as undeserving (I literally just read this book yesterday, she references as never have seeing his equal and that all men just fail when compared-this view of Wentworth is enough to quench her desire to run her ancestral home, something that she really, really wanted. And guess what ya'll money was-and still is-an important factor into marrying and Anne and Lady Russell weren't stupid or greedy or selfish in worrying about this-it's not like women had an extraordinary amount of opportunity in this time and marrying could and did decide the entire financial future of a woman).



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**I honestly do not know why Anne, a 19 yr old girl who listened to her mother figure, is getting so much hate. This deference to a parent figure over a boyfriend is treated like a terrible thing, when it's not, especially for the time. And at the end is more her coming to terms with that decision that has drastically shaped her life, not really being contradictory at all. The novel neither defends wielding to persuasion nor being super strong-willed, but, in my opinion, advocates a healthy mix of both. Anne is rather thoroughly "punished" over the 8 yr interval through the pain for being so easily persuaded (which she does know is partly her fault) and Louisa is "punished" for her carelessness and stubbornness. But neither are portrayed as awful people, and are treated rather nicely by the novel. Both of their primary personality traits are given their due and the pros and cons of both are examined. I would say that moderation in personality, rather than going to extremes, is a big portion of the novel (seeing as Anne figures that Benwick and Louisa are going to grow more alike in temperament, which is seen as a good thing for both of them).
I personally think that her final resolution at the novel about her decision has more to do with recognizing that Lady Russell is not infallible (see, Parents as People) and that she can have her own opinions, which is a realization that she had to learn the hard way. She states that she would never give the same advice to anyone who asked her, because the advice was wrong. But she could not have known this, remember, it is stated in the novel that Wentworth was very lucky and that this was a decision that life afterwards was going to decide the merits of. For all she would have known, it could have ruined both of them, and she had been convinced of it by someone she respected. Remember, in the novel it is implied by her father that she would have gotten no help from him, but it is said that the engagement would have still endured if it hadn't been for Lady Russell (again someone whom she loved and relied upon and very much respected). So it's not much that Anne wielded because that's a woman's duty, because if she did her father's veto would have been enough, but rather because she loved and valued Lady Russell's opinion. But since that time she has learned that the advice she had received was incorrect and it caused her pain. Anne learns through her life that she can have very different opinions than Lady Russell and it is stated repeatedly that she has long since learned that they can have differing opinions because Lady Russell isn't perfect (PARENTS AS PEOPLE) and that she is in fact, a pretty terrible judge of character (reference how badly judged both Wentworth and Elliot) and Anne has realized this and has begun to make her own judgments on people (see how Anne is ALWAYS suspicious of Mr. Elliot, while most everyone else of her family and party love him immediately). I think that she has a rather strong mind and character and that it's come from learning all of the above lessons. At the end of the novel, remember that her father still doesn't completely approve and it takes time for Lady Russell to approve, showing that she has grown and is not so easily persuaded just on other people's opinions as she was when she was 19. She's learned that it isn't always a good thing to wield to others opinions BECAUSE EVEN THOSE YOU LOVE CAN BE WRONG WHICH IS HER LEARNING FROM HER MISTAKE.
Wentworth doesn't really apologize at the end. He's has re-realized Anne's fine points during his time with her and has probably realized that she had made some good arguments (and like Anne, more regrets the time lost than anything else-as when he realizes that he could have written to her and she would have written back). He doesn't so much apologize for anything rather than disagree with her on following the advice. They both (by the end of the novel) believe that the other is perfection itself though, so this disagreement hasn't really done anything. Neither of them really apologize and neither of them really have to. On both sides no intentional harm was done and both, I think, are trying to make amends with a bad part of their lives in the best way possible. Wentworth doesn't see himself as ever have being unworthy (and as Anne has never seen his equal, I'm going to say neither did she) and saw himself as being ill-used (though early in the novel it is stated that he has also never seen Anne's equal, showing that he didn't see her as undeserving either-at least unconsciously). Frederick sees her as wrong as wielding to her Lady Russell (which, the alternative would have been wielding to him, which while more "romantic" would have been problematic as well. Personally, I'm rather a fan that Austen has a woman-woman relationship and a mother-daughter relationship outweigh a romantic attachment and I think it reflects how highly she valued family-which she did) and Anne sees it as right (at this point in time, they both regret the time lost, why make it more painful by regretting the action, which was, at the time and to the best of her judgment?). Neither EVER saw the other as undeserving (I literally just read this book yesterday, she references as never have seeing his equal and that all men just fail when compared-this view of Wentworth is enough to quench her desire to run her ancestral home, something that she really, really wanted. And guess what ya'll money was-and still is-an important factor into marrying and Anne and Lady Russell weren't stupid or greedy or selfish in worrying about this-it's not like women had an extraordinary amount of opportunity in this time and marrying could and did decide the entire financial future of a woman).
Sorry, this turned into such a long thing, but I think this hate is a little ridiculous and also WAAAAY over estimates the amount of power and control upper-class women had at this time and ignores that Anne is a subject to emotional abuse (just like Franny, though both are subject to COMPLETELY different situations and really shouldn't be compared to one another, or any of Jane Austen's other heroines).
TO CONCLUDE: Anne has come to the belief that a woman she considers her mother and whom she highly respects was wrong in her advice because this woman is a human being who is bad at judging character. Anne comes to terms with this by thinking that there was no fault in following the advice because she didn't know better, but has come to learn that Lady Russell was wrong (because she's shit at character assessment). She showed loyalty to her mother-figure, which she admits is no bad thing (cause it isn't), but she is realizes that the advice in itself was wrong


*** I'm not averse to the interpretation that Anne loved Lady Russell more than Wentworth, but given ValuesDissonance, I doubt that's what Austen had in mind... then again, given the eyebrow-raising passages of ''{{Emma}}'', maybe it was, although I've truly never seen any of Anne's fans use [[LesYay that defense]] before.

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*** I'm not averse to the interpretation that Anne loved Lady Russell more than Wentworth, but given ValuesDissonance, I doubt that's what Austen had in mind... then again, given the eyebrow-raising passages of ''{{Emma}}'', ''{{Literature/Emma}}'', maybe it was, although I've truly never seen any of Anne's fans use [[LesYay that defense]] before.


* I prefer Persuasion to Mansfield Park myself, but I think the detail you're missing is... fans can be idiots. There's no logic involved. See MisaimedHatedom, etc.

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* I prefer Persuasion to Mansfield Park myself, but I think the detail you're missing is... fans can be idiots. There's no logic involved. See MisaimedHatedom, [[MisaimedFandom Misaimed Hatedom]], etc.




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\n*** The novel also discusses how long engagements are not desirable. Mrs Musgrove and Mrs Croft discuss how it's better for Henrietta and Charles Hayter to marry at once with a small income rather than have a long, uncertain engagement.

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