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[[folder: Why didn't the Reapers just nuke Sanctuary?]]
* They perceived it as a threat, and not entirely without reason. So why did they bother to send a few Ground Troops for a slow ground battle with Cerberus? Why not just send a single Capital Ship and blow the entire facility to smithereens?
** Because then they won't know what they learned. It's not the facility that's dangerous, it's the information they learned from it. They needed to get their troops in, get access to the equipment and hopefully grab Henry Lawson as well.
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** In ''Andromeda'', we learn that [[spoiler:the Jardaan]] were even more technologically advanced than the Protheans, and then there are the mysterious beings behind [[spoiler:the Scourge]], who were so powerful that they could [[spoiler:weaponise dark energy and use it to distort the fabric of space in a large chunk of the galaxy]]. So maybe the Reapers did send an advance patrol to the Andromeda galaxy, only for it to be defeated by one of these forces, after which they learned not to bother with Andromeda.
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** As mentioned in the folder above, if you melt the human body down to it's genetic material, you won't actually have all that much left. Spread that over a several kilometre long Reaper, and suffice to say, you will need a lot of humans to make a full Reaper. I'm not saying that the Reapers wouldn't be able to make more than one capital ship per cycle, but 20 or 30 per species might be stretching it a bit. I think it would be more accurate to assume that they could make two or three capital ships with their chosen species and 20 or 30 Destroyers for the rest of the cycle. As for the size of the Reaper fleet, people are relying on a lot of assumptions when estimating their numbers. Firstly, the assumption that the cycles are always consistent. They wouldn't be; I believe Vigil mentions that it changes depending on the cycle, sometimes it could be 30000 years between harvests, other times it could be as much as 70000. Secondly, it also relies on the assumption that each cycle has roughly the same amount of species. In all likelihood, the earlier cycles may have had hundreds, if not thousands of spacefaring races that would've been turned into Reapers.
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** As mentioned in the folder above, if you melt the human body down to it's genetic material, you won't actually have all that much left. Spread that over a several kilometre long Reaper, and suffice to say, you will need a lot of humans to make a full Reaper. I'm not saying that the Reapers wouldn't be able to make more than one capital ship per cycle, but 20 or 30 per species might be stretching it a bit. I think it would be more accurate to assume that they could make two or three capital ships with their chosen species and 20 or 30 Destroyers for the rest of the cycle. As for the size of the Reaper fleet, people are relying on a lot of assumptions when estimating their numbers. Firstly, the assumption that the cycles are always consistent. They wouldn't be; I believe Vigil mentions that it changes depending on the cycle, sometimes it could be 30000 30,000 years between harvests, other times it could be as much as 70000.70,000. The Inusannon cycle occurred 120,000 years prior to the current cycle, meaning that the Prothean cycle came after that higher end. Secondly, it also relies on the assumption that each cycle has roughly the same amount of species. In all likelihood, the earlier cycles may have had hundreds, if not thousands of spacefaring races that would've been turned into Reapers.
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** There is also the fact that the Reapers may ''not actually be committing their entire fleet'', which just adds to the NightmareFuel. More Reapers may be hidden away in dark space, particularly in cases where only a single Reaper remains from its original species, since aside from being living warships, they are also a repository of the original species' genetics and history. It isn't all that uncommon for a Reaper to be picked off each cycle, so losing the last Reaper created from a species from a couple hundred cycles back means you lose all that information as well. The Catalyst used the words "preserved in Reaper form", indicating that they take this function ''very'' seriously.
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** I have a different theory; other mind control trumps indoctrination. The Thorian made it through at least one Reaping without being indoctrinated. Indeed Shiala notes at one point that she thinks she's still indoctrinated but the Thorian's own mind control is overriding it, even now the Thorian is dead and not giving any instructions. This does make a certain sense with how Reaper indoctrination works, as a kind of slow subversion of the target's thought processes. More powerful, more direct means of mind control, such as the Thorian and the Leviathans, simply override the effect. You can't hear the whispers of the Reapers 'cos someone is shouting in your ear. The Rachni Queen's mental signal may produce similar kind of result. However the cloned queen was indoctrinated before she was powerful enough to do so.
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** The Reapers don't always use integrated weaponry. The Marauders retain their Turian hands and carry separate guns with handles. And the Blackstar, even assuming it can be reloaded, is a rather situational weapon. You don't want to have a troop type only useful at long range, 'cos if the enemy closes they'd kill themselves with their own integrated gun. Better have it be something that any husk type can pick up and use.
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** The point is to break the blockade, not just kill Asari. Indeed the Reapers would prefer living Asari where possible, to huskify them. So aiming at the barrier is quite sensible.
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*** Assume any battles involving Geth are happening after the Rannoch questline in a timeline where the Geth survive. As for the Volus they run some extra risks but do you really think no Volus has ever fought? Even with Turian protection they'd have to from time to time and they didn't ''have'' Turian protection for centuries. One breach of the armour could kill any species if the breach was in the right place, doesn't stop them fighting. The multiplayer is of variable canon (what with in-game choices effecting the lay of the land) but it is as canon as anything else.
** The Reapers may create new forces from captured enemies but they need some ground forces to begin with when they start their invasion. Building-sized spaceships are ill suited to gathering prisoners for conversion. As such even if we do assume Shepard and company took out all the Collectors in the Milky Way in 2 then it would make sense for the Reapers to have a military force of Collectors in cryo with them out in Dark Space. These troops will have been unleashed on the Batarians in the first attacks and likely most of them died overrunning the Hegemony, replaced by the Cannibals and later converted forces. But a fair few will have survived to be deployed elsewhere.
** The Reapers may create new forces from captured enemies but they need some ground forces to begin with when they start their invasion. Building-sized spaceships are ill suited to gathering prisoners for conversion. As such even if we do assume Shepard and company took out all the Collectors in the Milky Way in 2 then it would make sense for the Reapers to have a military force of Collectors in cryo with them out in Dark Space. These troops will have been unleashed on the Batarians in the first attacks and likely most of them died overrunning the Hegemony, replaced by the Cannibals and later converted forces. But a fair few will have survived to be deployed elsewhere.
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** Two. In millions of years of cycles they only lost track of two (that we know of). That's a pretty good success rate really.
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** I have problems with this too, but ''most'' of the stuff Javik identifies can be discovered in a lab from studying individual cells. Species and sex can be determined from the DNA, age can be approximately deduced from telomeres and the amount of biodegradation, and ''maybe'' one can make very rough guesses at the specimen's lifestyle from the exact composition of the cells. Emotions from direct touch to a living subject are even easier to detect. I've got nothing on extrapolations of emotions from minor cell samples, though. Maybe Javik just made some generic guesses about Grunt's personality based on him being a young tank-grown krogan. I don't think the writers really thought this one through -- they probably just went by RuleOfCool, just like the Synthesis ending. And no, explaining it as biotics wouldn't solve anything, it would be a VoodooShark. Biotics are not a universal plot hole plug like [[StarWars the Force]], they are an application of mass effect fields for pseudo-telekinesis. They have nothing to do with the "walking biolab" abilities Javik displays.
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** I have problems with this too, but ''most'' of the stuff Javik identifies can be discovered in a lab from studying individual cells. Species and sex can be determined from the DNA, age can be approximately deduced from telomeres and the amount of biodegradation, and ''maybe'' one can make very rough guesses at the specimen's lifestyle from the exact composition of the cells. Emotions from direct touch to a living subject are even easier to detect. I've got nothing on extrapolations of emotions from minor cell samples, though. Maybe Javik just made some generic guesses about Grunt's personality based on him being a young tank-grown krogan. I don't think the writers really thought this one through -- they probably just went by RuleOfCool, just like the Synthesis ending. And no, explaining it as biotics wouldn't solve anything, it would be a VoodooShark. Biotics are not a universal plot hole plug like [[StarWars [[Franchise/StarWars the Force]], they are an application of mass effect fields for pseudo-telekinesis. They have nothing to do with the "walking biolab" abilities Javik displays.
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[[folder:Harbinger's design retconned?]]
* In [=ME2=] Harbinger had a [[AceCustom unique design]] with a large crest, but in 3 he loses the crest and is just a normal Reaper with yellow eyes added and the center leg removed. I presume it's due to the developers being lazy and reusing a normal Reaper model, but this leave a question; which design is canon, 2 or 3's?
** I'd guess 2's since it fit 3's statement they're the largest Reaper and 3's uses camera angles to somewhat hide the lack of crest. But a picture in the Extended Cut, which wouldn't have technical limitations to not, depicts them as 3's design. Was that just for in-game consistency?
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** I demand a canon source that states that the Hades Cannon is mounted on a Reaper destroyer. Not an unsubstantiated quote from the Mass Effect wiki. Otherwise, observed evidence indicates that the cannon is not a Reaper but a Reaper weapons system that does not have the same degree of defences as a full-scale Reaper. We've ''seen'' the kind of firepower needed to disable a Reaper destroyer in three instances: direct hits on vulnerable points by vehicle-mounted Thanix missiles, repeated orbital bombardment by cruiser broadside weapons, and a skyscraper-sized Thresher Maw. At no point do we see a man-portable weapon take down a Reaper destroyer in a single shot, and everything needed to take down the Reaper destroyers previously and afterward were in excess of the firepower exhibited by the Cain in that scene. The logical conclusion based on observed evidence: the Hades Cannons' defences are not as strong as those observed surrounding Reaper destroyers, therefore they are ''not'' Reaper destroyers. And even if it ''is'' mounted on an actual Reaper destroyer, that is not an inconsistency; that simply means that the Hades Cannon renders the Reaper destroyer more vulnerable to attack, perhaps by drawing off power from its barriers.
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** I demand a canon source that states that the Hades Cannon is mounted on a Reaper destroyer. Not an unsubstantiated quote from the Mass Effect wiki. Otherwise, observed evidence indicates that the cannon is not a Reaper but a Reaper weapons system that does not have the same degree of defences as a full-scale Reaper. We've ''seen'' the kind of firepower needed to disable a Reaper destroyer in three instances: direct hits on vulnerable points by vehicle-mounted Thanix missiles, repeated orbital bombardment by cruiser broadside weapons, and a skyscraper-sized Thresher Maw. At no point do we see a man-portable weapon take down a Reaper destroyer in a single shot, and everything needed to take down the Reaper destroyers previously and afterward were in excess of the firepower exhibited by the Cain in that scene. The logical conclusion based on observed evidence: the Hades Cannons' defences defenses are not as strong as those observed surrounding Reaper destroyers, therefore they are ''not'' Reaper destroyers. And even if it ''is'' mounted on an actual Reaper destroyer, that is not an inconsistency; that simply means that the Hades Cannon renders the Reaper destroyer more vulnerable to attack, perhaps by drawing off power from its barriers.
** Harbinger was depicted in game as a re-skinned normal Reaper minus the central leg despite [=ME2=] showing they had a different, more unique design. Since they're being lazy and reusing Reaper character models no matter if it doesn't make sense, the Hades Cannon reusing the Reaper Destroyer doesn't necessarily reflect any connection in canon. I checked the wiki, it's says they're Reaper tech, but not Reapers themselves.
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[[folder: The Crucible and the Conduit]]
* Ok, many aspects of the ending give me a serious headache, but for now I'll stick to two major problems:
** 1. Did the Reapers influence the design of the Conduit? I keep on getting confused whether or not that is the case. If they didn't, then why would the designers make things so damn complicated by making it activated by the Catalyst and thus make it have to merge with the Citadel? Unless I missed something...
** Conduits are simply scaled down versions of mass relays, nothing more nothing less.
** 2. Why would the Reapers build a Conduit ON EARTH leading directly to the Citadel? Why give the resistance's ground troops access to it? If it was so that the Reapers could send up their own troops to defend the Citadel, why does Shepard not encounter any resistance (not counting the Illusive Man) aboard the station at all? Unless either the Catalyst was somehow manipulating things or the Conduit just somehow formed on its own or moved to Earth from Ilos, it really doesn't make any sense (of course, it's definitely not unique in that sense).
** Shepard and Anderson theorize in the game that the Conduit was used to transport humans to the Citadel for "processing", presumably to create a new Reaper. Using a Conduit is far more efficient than having to carry everything up via ship. The Reapers also had no reason to guard the interior of the Citadel simply because they never thought anybody would be able to reach it.
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* I understand that in this day and age, biology is the go-to magical science, but how does Javik's "biochemical touch" even work? How does it distinguish between neurotransmitters and hormones of various unrelated races, allowing him to detect their feelings? How can he detect traces of Grunt - and his emotions - in the cargo hold, after the entire spaceship has been refitted and presumably UV'd, scrubbed and chemically cleaned to oblivion? Why not use something like "individual biotic aura" for Javik to feel? Biotics are already well-established within the ME universe and, at least for me, would be much easier to swallow than the bio-Technobabble.
** There's no evidence that the ship was scrubbed in any way. Hell, judging by the interior of the ship, they were still pulling bits of the Normandy's old guts out and replacing them. And "individual biotic aura" makes even ''less'' sense considering what we know about biotics.
** In fact, there's evidence for the ship not have been scrubbed (or completely taken apart, for that matter) at all, like the roaming space hamster and the lost ship models.
** The whole point of Javik's ability is to give the Protheans an aura of mystery and otherness, and to demonstrate that there are still major holes in the current Cycle's understanding of the laws of the universe. Like with the "space magic" of the ending, you are supposed to get the feeling that there's still so many undiscovered things in the cosmos.
** The Alliance only made sweeps for Cerberus bugs, as stated by Traynor. So, aside from retrofitting, there is no scrubbing otherwise.
** I have problems with this too, but ''most'' of the stuff Javik identifies can be discovered in a lab from studying individual cells. Species and sex can be determined from the DNA, age can be approximately deduced from telomeres and the amount of biodegradation, and ''maybe'' one can make very rough guesses at the specimen's lifestyle from the exact composition of the cells. Emotions from direct touch to a living subject are even easier to detect. I've got nothing on extrapolations of emotions from minor cell samples, though. Maybe Javik just made some generic guesses about Grunt's personality based on him being a young tank-grown krogan. I don't think the writers really thought this one through -- they probably just went by RuleOfCool, just like the Synthesis ending. And no, explaining it as biotics wouldn't solve anything, it would be a VoodooShark. Biotics are not a universal plot hole plug like [[StarWars the Force]], they are an application of mass effect fields for pseudo-telekinesis. They have nothing to do with the "walking biolab" abilities Javik displays.
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[[folder: Sex with Javik]]
* This happened to me, and I wasn't even trying to make it happen... seriously, how is this even possible? How can an alien species from 50,000 years ago even have relations with a female human?
** If it's comfortable for you to think that way, nobody said it was sex. They could have just slept in the same bed and done something embarassing. And even if it was, don't underestimate human creativity. The EverythingThatMoves trope exists for a reason: if it moves and is of the right size, probably ''someone'', somewhere, has tried to sleep with it. Best [[{{Squick}} not to think about it]]. Suffice to say there are obvious ways and not-so-obvious ways.
** Humans are [[BoldlyComing able to have sex with other alien species]], and it's likely that Protheans' reproductive process is still just sexual intercourse. If Javik is a male and has... male genitals, then sex is possible. Even if Javik's Tab A isn't a perfect fit for Shepard's Slot B, there are other activities classified as sexual without needing penetration. Pretty much, as always, the biggest problem is getting Javik to agree to it, rather than the difficulty of the act itself. Also, [[BrainBleach I need to go manually remove those images from my mind with a spoon]].
** Additionally, if the internet has taught me anything, it is that no matter the size or shape, "Tab A" can ALWAYS be made to fit into "Slot B".
** [[TheTalk Well, when two creatures love each other very much, or are just very, very drunk....]] I mean, come on, how the fuck do you think they do it? Even if they have completely different and incompatible biology in the physical sense, they can still stimulate erogenous zones until orgasm occurs. Put some bloody imagination into it. This is like asking how a human and a turian could have relations. That Javik is 50,000 years old is entirely irrelevant. Also keep in mind that most likely, they were both ''really'' drunk and might have just flopped around a bit without finding anywhere to deploy the troops, and then passed out.
** It's also perfectly possible that Protheans reproduce in the same way as the asari, using their biotics.
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[[folder: Why were the Keepers and Saren even necessary?]]
* If the Catalyst ''is'' the Citadel, why couldn't it have just activated the relay itself? Why bother with the Keepers and after they failed, sending in Saren and Sovereign to activate it manually? I mean, christ, that combined with TIM being a recycling of Saren makes me wonder if Mac Walters knows a damn thing about the series lore.
** Just spitballing here, but perhaps the keepers and Saren were a more recent failsafe introduced as a response to heavy losses sustained in an earlier cycle. It's entirely possible that Vigil was an UnreliableExpositor and that the Protheans were only able to undo changes made by The Catalyst to hasten the harvest over the last few cycles out of frustration that previous cycles yielded less than optimal results. We can infer from the fact that previous cycles were aware of The Catalyst's existence that somewhere along the line, they may have interfered with its ability to directly launch the Reaper harvest, which in turn made the creation of the Keepers necessary. Another possibility is that the Citadel was not always The Catalyst's home (which actually seems likely) and that it was simply moved there in a later cycle without being given full control over its systems. This makes sense if you think about it - certainly any races to discover the Citadel would want to poke around in some of the station's black boxes, which, if they were linked directly to The Catalyst, could inadvertently trigger a Reaper invasion prematurely.
** All indications are that the Catalyst does not directly control the process. It set up the cycle and then simply sat back and let things progress on their own. The Reapers and their cycle are an autonomous process that it doesn't oversee. Besides, if something came along that broke that cycle, the Catalyst is perfectly willing to accept that.
** The problem with that idea is that his ENTIRE EXPLANATION of the relationship is "The Reapers are mine. I control them. They are my solution".
** Which is very vague and non-specific. Observed behavior from the Reapers make it clear that the Catalyst, despite being in overall control, is hands-off and doesn't direct the Reapers itself. It ''could'', theoretically, have intervened if it chose to, but it chose not to intervene in the Protheans' plan and the subsequent struggle against Saren.
** Which choice would have OrcusOnHisThrone marrying the IdiotBall, which was the entire complaint in the first place.
** Indeed, the EC adds that he is the collective intelligence of the Reapers, which means he knows everything they know. Also, considering that in the control ending, Shepard replaces the Catalyst and has complete and utter control over the Reapers, the original Catalyst did as well. As an AI, he knows nothing of 'laziness'. We also see the citadel move at his behest, as well as CatalystShepard's. Then theres the whole elevator thing. Its just not explained. The Catalyst breaks the whole plot of the trilogy. from before the games even started.
** "The Catalyst breaks the whole plot of the trilogy. from before the games even started." Pretty much this. Which is why I ignore the official ending and prefer Vendetta's explanation: the Catalyst is the Citadel.
** This assumes that the Catalyst is always active, and that it has control over the Citadel itself. Three theories I have heard explain the Catalysts lack of action in [=ME=]1 is that:
** 1) The Crucible is necessary for the Catalyst to "wake up", and it is otherwise just running the same subroutines that it runs every cycle. It is essentially a computer that has been set on auto-pilot up until that point, where it is responsible for insuring the Reapers stay on point (harvest the Galaxy of spacefaring races who use the mass relays). When the crucible attaches, it is essentially the same as hooking up a keyboard and mouse to a computer, allowing for you to offer input and change its calculations/routines (similar to how you can change the Heretic Geths' code in [=ME=]2 to correct their inaccurate calculations). It never has changed its code before since the crucible was never attached, and thus it myay not be able to act outside of its old subroutines. Thus it won't adapt well to changes in cycles, since it isn't programmed to adapt well (considering it has been using the same solution to a problem for a billion years). This theory is lent credence in Leviathan, where the Catalyt's creators basically describe the catalyst as a sophisticated but limited VI that is operating in the constraints of its programming.
** 2)The Catalyst is essentially like a Car's computer. Though most modern cars have nearly all aspects controlled by a computer, we would not expect the car to turn on without some input, even though the car's computer is always on. The keepers would activate its control of the citadel in past, allowing it to summon the reapers to begin the new cycle. It likely used this solution either to A)hide from the sentient races, as an AI presence that was always active in the background may raise suspicions(exposing the Catalyst) or B)Save its power and energy, as we see that the Reapers hibernate and this may mean the Catalyst must do so as well. In previous cycles, the Citadel was always seized immediately. For all we know, this reflected the Catalyst coming online and directing the cycle. No one knew it was there since all of the organics on the station were wiped out, and the Mass Relays shut down so no one could approach it.
** 3)The Catalyst is stored on the Citadel, but has no direct control over the structure without the Crucible in place. Similar to the above 2 theories, but instead the Catalyst is only able to control the citadel with its activation via the Crucible. Before that, it can monitor and guide the Reapers, but it is for the most part constrained as a passive observer, who set the mostly independent Reapers on a mission, and then stepped back. This could even be intentional, so that only when a race proved itself capable would it be allowed to affect things, rather than allow anyone to simply hijack control of the entire reaper fleet and mass relay network if crafty enough to hack the citadel. This is supported by the EC and Leviathan, as the Catalyst refers to the crucible as a power source that allows it to act in manners it normally could not, and the Leviathans state that the Catalyst is waiting for an anomaly to prove that the cycles should end.
** This has been mentioned in the WMG for ''2'', but there's also the fact that even with the delay in the Reaper arrival from, well, [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin Arrival]], it apparently takes the Reaper fleet less than a year to reach Batarian space from wherever they're hanging out in dark space. For a species who have been around for tens of millions of years (at least), this is nothing. Why bother activating the Citadel Relay to dark space at all? If all it takes is a couple of months, why doesn't the Reaper fleet just mosey on over to the Alpha Relay when it's good and ready and take everyone by total surprise that way? Particularly once the Protheans disable the Keeper signal.
** It actually took them over a millennium to reach Batarian space from wherever they're hanging out. Remember, Saren and the Geth were not Sovereign's first attempt at solving the problem with the Citadel Relay. The genocide signal's been active since earlier than the rachni war.
** No, actually in a tweet [[WordOfGod Bioware said]] that the reapers have been on the move since the moment Sovereign was destroyed. If the reapers had been on the move since a millennium then they would be at a considerable distance from their origin with their relay to the Citadel, if that's the case, then why did Sovereign bothered to activate the Citadel since their buddies would arrive soon anyway?
** So that would mean that it took 2-3 years for them to travel from Dark Space (Between [=ME=]1 and [=ME=]2, Shepard is on a mission for several months before he is dead for two years, plus his time working for Cerberus and his arrest) to reaching the edge of the Galaxy. Once there, they just would hijack the closest Mass Relay. It still seems pretty quick though.
** Technically, relays can be moved. Whilst moving towards the galaxy from dark space, the Reapers could have brought the dark space-Citadel relay with them.
** One wonders why the Citadel activates it and not the other way around. They however did not bring it with them, they could have just used to to fling themselves into the galaxy for a very nasty surprise.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why didn't the Reapers just... wait?]]
* Now I'm not looking for a Meta-Explanation here, I know that if the reapers didn't come through we wouldn't have a game. But... Okay, they wish to operate without knowledge or resistance until it's too late, right? So... why not just wait like... 150-200 years? By that point the only person who would be left alive to remind the galaxy of the reapers would be Liara, Wrex, Samara and possibly Morinth. (It seems to be implied that Wrex is kind of old by even [=ME=]1, so he probably doesn't have that long.) Even if Sheppard is like "The Reapers are coming!" to his dying day, he won't be listened to because the Reapers just wouldn't arrive. Look, I know they have their cycle, but it was already delayed by a few years- they wait ''fifty thousand'' before harvesting another species, are we really supposed to buy that they aren't patient enough to be like: "We're being prepared for, better hold of the invasion for just a little bit."
** According to extra materials, the current cycle being left in the dark about the Reapers is something of an anomaly. Many cycles were successfully able to warn the next, but obviously even clear warnings didn't allow the previous cycles much more of a chance. For reference, Shepard is the only organic they consider a threat. Besides, who says a galactic invasion was a bad idea? They ''were'' winning the war, and the battle for Earth was a DesperationAttack with the remnants of the galactic civilizations using their greatest superweapon available. Quite frankly, with their superior numbers, technology, and durability, the Reapers ''always'' won, even against cycles better-prepared than Shepards, so don't blame them for assuming this one wouldn't be too different.
** The last stand was a desperation attack but that was mostly due to the Citadel now being in Reaper controlled hands, which was the fault of Cerberus, not the reapers themselves, the Reapers are smart, with Shep leading the charge, he had foiled the Reapers plans to get through to the galaxy at large, not once, but three times, the Reapers know who they are dealing with, it would be a simple matter to wait for Shepard and those who took him seriously to die or fall into obscurity.
** The Reapers are pushing to attack now because it's time to attack. They've been preparing to attack at this point and the assault is already behind schedule, and the only people who know about the real threat are Shepard's rather small circle and the Geth Consensus. In fact, the latter point is one of the single most compelling reasons to attack ''now'': the Consensus is a force of perfectly rational synthetic intelligences that are fully aware of the Reaper threat and will take whatever steps necessary to defend itself from them, and giving them any more time to prepare than they already have is just going to make things worse.
** Clever! The Geth didn't rush back into the arms of the Old Machines until the quarians attacked them in Priority: Rannoch. And by that point the Reaper invasion was already underway, so the genie was out of the bottle. Ironically if Harbinger had just delayed the invasion by another year or two, gambling that the quarians were going to attack the Geth eventually, the whole thing might have worked out in their favor. If the Geth rejected the Old Machines, then the quarians probably would have wiped them out. If the Geth embraced the Old Machines, then they would have mopped the floor with the quarians. Either way, the Geth are no longer a threat to the Reapers' plans.
** I think if the Collectors had managed to snatch Shepard's body before Cerberus got to it in [=ME=]2 the Reapers might just have decided to wait another century or three before invading. When the Collectors failed, Harbinger felt they needed to step up the time-table.
** Their advance man, Sovereign, had failed in a direct assault on the Citadel. The only reason the races of the universe didn't begin to prepare in that instance is because of the colossal idiocy of the Council handwaving away the threat. The Reapers' plans couldn't possibly account for that so they moved in.
** It's casually stated here and there that the Reapers believe what they're doing to be for the benefit of the organics they destroy. If you want to get aa good idea why a few centuries would be a bad idea to them, look no further than the quarians and humanity. A few centuries is all it took to turn them from one of the most advanced species to some backwater hicks, and the humans vice-versa (in even less time). The Reapers' goal is to preserve each species at the top of their game, and if it sees humanity as capital ship material, who the hell knows what'll happen to this unpredictable-as-hell species in ''ten'' years, let alone a few centuries.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Reaper Blackstar: What's with the handgrip?]]
* It just seems odd that the Reapers would make a weapon with a human-style handgrip and trigger when they could easily integrate it with a husk's body instead, like with the Scion's shockwave cannon in [=ME=]2. Otherwise, it's like they're just ''begging'' for someone like Shepard to pick it up and turn it against them. Also, if the Blackstar is such an effective weapon, why don't we see the Reapers using large-scale versions of it as anti-dreadnought weapons, instead of spamming Thanix beams all over the place?
** Makes it easier for an indoctrinated soldier or techie to bring this heavy weapon into their base and blow up key personnel or armory.
** It's also a one-shot weapon. In-universe it could be something the Reapers made recently and are testing. Given its destructive capabilites and only firing once, it's possible the Reapers intended this to be used by a suicide bomber tactic.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Reapers Don't Know How to Aim Rockets or Ballistics (Thessia)]]
* On Thessia, at the very beginning of the mission Sheppard gets to an Asari post headed by Lieutenant Kurin. The perimeter is soon breached, an Asari blocks the breach with a biotic bubble and Sheppard has to get on the turret to shoot Brutes and Husks. When this fight is over there's a cut scene. During this scene, the reaper forces launch rockets at the biotic bubble. If we look at the rockets' paths closely, we can see their trajectory is curved, in both the horizontal and vertical planes. This implies guided flight. Why can't the reapers just aim to hit the area behind the bubble? Actually, if one of the rockets had just been aimed a little bit more to the right (seen from our perspective during the cut scene), it would have been able to fly over what remained of the original fence and hit behind the fence, right in the middle of the courtyard. In the cutscene this rocket hits the biotic bubble but the bubble is higher than the fence. For that matter, have the Reapers ever heard of mortars? It is true that there are major difference between a mortar and a bazooka. A modern fighting unit equipped with self-propelled rockets might not be able to accomplish what a unit equipped with mortars could. However, the Reapers are leagues ahead of us technologically: using a rocket as a mortar round should be nothing to them.
** Husks aren't exactly smart. They rely more on their overwhelming numbers and toughness to win, and in a situation where that's not enough, they'll wait for an actual reaper to lend support. It's possible that whatever was firing the rockets just saw the Asari bubble and went "enemy = shoot" and would just keep firing until it was dead. Not the best explanation, but still.
** Or, they knew exactly what they were doing. Even at that point, everyone knew Thessia was lost. The Reapers are all about breaking their enemies' spirits, so letting the commandos watch their defenses being whittled down, begging for reinforcements and being slowly overwhelmed by husks, would be more psychologically terrifying to others listening in than than just blowing them to kingdom come. Perhaps inefficient, but the Reapers have billions more soldiers on their side and all the time in the universe, so they wouldn't care.
** Or, HollywoodTactics.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The Reapers haven't watched The Terminator]]
* Ok, by now we all know the reapers' plan. What I see as the biggest flaw in the Catalyst's logic is that it makes the assumption that organic life will conquer ftl travel sooner than it will develop artificial intelligence. Now, assuming this was to happen and the worst case scenario were to occur with the A.I. killing the pre-spaceflight organics that created it, would it not be possible if not probable for the A.I. to become itself spacefaring and potentially cause the destruction of galactic life halfway between reaper harvesting?
** Presumably the Reapers kill off any synthetic races they find during their harvesting runs. At most, the pre-FTL synthetics would go undetected during the current cycle and then be wiped out 50,000 years later.
** The Reaper vanguard's job is to make sure this doesn't happen. It keeps an eye on the galactic situation, and if a synthetic creation starts running amok, it would trigger the harvest early to deal with it. This is a common fallacy that a lot of people make when considering the Reaper's cycle: they assume that the Reapers are blind to the goings-on of the galaxy, when the Reapers have both their vanguard (Sovereign) and slave species (Collectors, controlled by Harbinger) to keep an eye on the galaxy for precisely this reason. Remember that the current cycle is an extreme fluke because Sovereign couldn't just call down the Reaper fleets early. In previous cycles the Reapers would just swoop down on any abnormalities and smash them flat.
** That is flat-out wrong. Javik says that the Protheans were engaged in a galactic-scale war with a Synthetic species for much of their history, and were starting to make real gains when the Reapers came.
** Which proves what, exactly? The Protheans were fighting a synthetic species, yes, but that synthetic species was not on the verge of winning and taking over the galaxy. The Reapers would be expected to trigger a harvest if it became apparent that synthetic life was going to take over the galaxy; that's the vanguard's job.
** Moreover, as long as the Synthetic and Organic species are fighting themselves to a standstill, that just makes the Reapers' job easier. Once one of them seizes the upper-hand decisively, they can move in an smash both of them at their weakest.
** The problem is that according to the Catalyst Synthetics always win.
** So? The Catalyst is not a truly omnicscient and infalliable entity. The fact that you're talking to it proves that much outright.
** Rather, the synthetics would always win ''eventually''.
** More specifically, that since Synthetics are vastly more efficient than any organic race, it would only take ''one'' genocidally intolerant synthetic race achieving victory to spell the doom of all organic intelligent races across the galaxy forever.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Harbinger shooting the Normandy]]
* Different example, but same principle, when Shepard calls in the Normandy to evaculate his team in the Extended cut, why doesn't Harbinger take advantage of this and blast both his nemesis and the ship? They are sitting ducks, I seriiously doubt they would be able to withstand the attack for long.
** That bugged me initially as well, but then I figured that Harbinger's priority at that moment was to stop everyone from getting to the Conduit and up to the Citadel (remember it wasn't just Shepard and co making a break for it, pretty much the entirety of Hammer was running for it as well), so Harbinger would have been focusing everything it had on the people charging the Conduit. Also note, that when Harbinger assumes everyone is dead, it takes off, [[FridgeBrilliance which could mean that it was going after the Normandy to finish the job.]]
** Or due to the Reaper IFF, Harbinger saw a Reaper standing right in front of Shepard and his crew and he leaves having assumed that it killed Shepard (the only person they have come to fear).
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The Reapers' Rachni Queen]]
* Two questions here: why was the Rachni Queen able to resist the effects of the Reapers' indoctrination? Also, she made it clear that if she had any more children, they would be able to help build the Crucible, so why were ''they'' immune to the effects of the Reapers' indoctrination when the Ravagers she'd given birth to before were more than happy to attack everything in sight?
** Those Ravagers were heavily roboticised, so I'd say we weren't looking at Indoctrinated rachni so much as huskified rachni. As for resisting Indoctrination, no idea. Maybe a prepared HiveMind can fend off Indoctrination (that is why the saved queen can help you, while the new queen if you didn't save the first one betrays you the first chance she gets).
** Remember in the first game where the Queen tells you about "the ones who soured the songs of our ancestors". That creepy Russian scientist guy also said that the Rachni Queens are born with all the born with the memories of their fathers/mothers. I just assumed that the Rachni Queen you save had the memories of what was done to her people and had the time to figure out a way to dodge being indoctrinated.
** The queens can probably resist indoctrination, but lesser rachni like workers, soldiers, and brood warriors can't. If what happened to the rachni queen is any indicator, Sovereign took control of various nests' lesser rachni and imprisoned the queen, using her to breed more warriors.
** I think we can chalk it up to a mix of GeneticMemory and HiveMind. Rachni queens carry the memories of their ancestors, which might give them a resistance to indoctrination; on top of that, their GeneticMemory also seems like an offshoot of their HiveMind, and it's shown elsewhere that a HiveMind is capable of preventing indoctrination from taking hold. It's what allows Shiala, who still ''is'' indoctrinated, to not be overcome by the Reapers' will. The rachni enemies that Shepard encounters are all husks, which are a mix of organic tissue ''and'' synthetic material because of Reaper interference. The Queen herself is still fully organic, as are the children the Queen produces after being freed.
** We get at least a hint, if not outright confirmation, that hive minds are inherently resistant to indoctrination from Shiala. Assuming you helped Zhu's Hope out previously, she sends you an email revealing that they are fighting the invasion effectively because the Thorian's implantation has linked their minds permanently, and she also admits that she is still indoctrinated. I don't recall her exact words, but it is something along the lines of she is able to hear the Reapers' whispers, but the voices of the Zhu's Hope colonists are stronger and so the whispers can't affect her. As a result, it is safe to assume properly networked Rachni have an even stronger hive mind and are thus even more resistant to indoctrination. As for the queen herself, recall that Benezia was able to fight off indoctrination briefly. As the head of an absolutely massive hive mind, I for one think it is safe to say that Rachni Queens are by many orders of magnitude the most powerful-minded beings in existence, surpassing probably all asari matriarchs combined. The Queen from Noveria seems more annoyed and dismissive of indoctrination when we encounter her in 3 than concerned by it, and knowing how strong indoctrination is, any being that can consider it to be merely an annoyance is frighteningly powerful.
** Here's a thought: the Leviathan DLC postulates that the titular Leviathans may have been responsible for the Rachni Wars due to the use of their own mind control. Of course, this conflicts with the previous games, as it was theorized in-universe that the Reapers were behind it. Yet, even in Mass Effect 1, the setting establishes that powerful hive minds seem to have an immunity to indoctrination, and the Leviathans would've had no reason to set the Rachni against the Council races. Here's my theory: who says it wasn't both of them? Sovereign may have attempted to indoctrinate the Rachni to serve as his underlings, but they resisted. At the same time, the Leviathans tried to take control of the Rachni for whatever reason (either to gain an army to help fight the Reapers or just to prevent Sovereign from getting them). The Rachni may have been able to hold off one form of mind control with no ill effects, but the combined strength of two different forms of indoctrination coming from two powerful species (and likely giving conflicting orders) drove the Rachni into a frenzy, thus causing the Rachni Wars. I'll admit, this may belong in WMG, but considering that the Leviathan mind control caused the creation of the Awakened Collectors, this seems fairly plausible.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Scions and Praetorians]]
* Why the absence of these enemies? Being made from Husks, there should be plenty of materials on hand for the Reapers to make more of them, and we know that the Scions, at least, are not Collector-dependent, as they show up on the Derelict Reaper.
** Ravagers do the same job as Scions with greater mobility. Pretorians's limited effectiveness against Shepard's team likely resulted in them being phased out; Harvesters do a better job overall as close air support platforms.
** Bigger question on my mind is where did all the mechs go? You'd think that with the Reaper invasion they'd be in higher demand than ever. Hell, they'd make perfect canon fodder for TIM's army.
** Considering how unreliable they proved in the previous game, I wouldn't be surprised that TIM just refused to use them to guard critical installations, let alone have them deployed on strike ops.
** [[spoiler:The mechs return in the Omega DLC, having been rebuilt into much more mobile and dangerous Rampart Mechs.]]
** Scions and Praetorians are now part of the Collector forces in multiplayer.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Reaper Tech and Indoctrination]]
* Isn't anybody worried about people in the Alliance, Council, or other races being indoctrinated during the main story? The Reaper tech you picked up during the N7 Sanctum mission goes straight to Alliance researchers and nobody thinks that might be a problem? The Derelict Reaper from Mass Effect 2 proved that Reaper corpses with any kind of power can still generate enough juice to indoctrinate organics ... yet nobody seems to be bothered by giant Reaper corpses now sitting on Tuchanka and Rannoch?
** The small Reaper devices are likely safe; the only Reaper devices encountered that caused indoctrination are large-scale objects like Reaper themselves, Object Rho, and the device in the mine. As for the dead Reapers on Tuchanka and Rannoch, those would likely be disassembled - explosively - and the areas around them would be marked as no-go zones until the Reaper is completely destroyed. Remember that once Sovereign was destroyed, there was no danger of indoctrination on the Citadel from the wreckage, and the derelict Reaper was still largely intact with a functional power core. The Reapers disabled on Tuchanka and Rannoch were completely destroyed with no intact power supplies, and indoctrination fields can only exist if the Reaper is still getting power and is intact, and both of those Reapers were very much not intact by the end.
** In the Shadow Broker files it's discussed how some Reaper tech is being analyzed from distance using remote drones to avoid the Indoctrination effect. Most likely all these objects are treated as extremely hazardous materials, and no-one will approach them in person once they've been secured.
** In the ''Leviathan'' DLC, the research lab has a rather large fragment of Sovereign on display. If questioned, the staff will reply that it is behind very powerful energy shields and that they have regular psych evaluations just in case that isn't enough. Apparently mass effect fields can block the indoctrination signal.
** Even if they are isolated, if they are still capable of indoctrination the wreck on Tuchanka is right in the territory of ''the mother of all Thresher Maws''. Imagine that thing being indoctrinated or huskified...
** Again, if the Reaper tech is sufficiently damaged then it cannot indoctrinate. The Reaper's power core needs to be active to generate husks or indoctrination fields, and if Kalros inflicts sufficient damage to the Reaper, which is indicated when it attacks, then the Reaper will be completely inert.
** There is no indication of how damaged a Reaper has to be to lose its indoctrination field; judging from the Derelict Reaper they don't have to be in a sapient condition do cause the effect. However, even if the field continues to excert influence, I doubt that a creature as simple as the Tresher Maw could be affected; it's not the type of creature to understand the complex ideas that the indoctrination influences on; at best a Reaper could guide it to attack specified targets, but since the Reaper is dead, there is nothing Kalros is likely to do besides what it has always done, which is to guard its territory.
** Actually, Liara explicitly tells Glyph that the Krogan should avoid the area because the destroyer ''is'' still active.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Reapers' attack on Sanctuary]]
* If the reapers have the Illusive man in their pocket via indoctrination, what is the point of their attack on Sanctuary?
** They attacked at the point where [=TIM=]'s research into Reaper control mechanisms got far enough that they believed he could end up becoming a threat. The real question is why they thought that if an indoctrinated person could not take control of them.
** TIM might not have been able to gain control of them, but if the research at Sanctuary had been allowed to continued it might have ended up in non-indoctrinated hands. That would be reason enough to wipe out Sanctuary.
** "Indoctrinated" does not mean "absolutely and totally under their control." TIM was indoctrinated to the point where he was useful if manipulated with subtlety, but he could still act overly on his own if he wanted to. Besides, the facility as a whole was a threat regardless; if the Alliance or any other galactic power found Sanctuary, they could use the research just as readily as Cerberus.
** The man running the place for TIM ISN't indoctrinated.
** TIM's investigation of Reaper code leaves a trail that could make the war more difficult for Reaper armada. He is leaving bread crumbs which will help others if not stopped. Just like Saren left bread crumbs which enraged Sovereign: the beacon, the Thorian, the Krogan facility on Virmire. Humanity has found a hero that gets those bread crumbs and uses it against the Reaper agenda, just like he did with the crumbs those damned Protheans left behind and also the secret weapon passed down through countless cycles and kept secret each time. The Reapers don't want peace, they want dominance. Anything else is a nuisance.
** An alternative hypothesis: The Reapers attacked explicitly to give TIM the illusion that he posed a credible threat to them, thus reinforcing his delusion that he is not indoctrinated and working toward their ultimate goals.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Legion and the Reaper Code]]
* What does the code do and how does it allow the geth to achieve 'true' consciousness? What IS true consciousness? The geth as a whole seemed pretty to have a good grasp of awareness even if it was different from how organics think. What changed that the geth were no longer hundreds of programs interacting and is now an 'individual'?
** The difference seems to be that, while a regular Geth program is non-sentient, the Geth as a whole only attaining self-awareness through the consensus, a single Reaper-upgraded Geth program is complex enough to be self-aware. Each single Geth program was upgraded to the level of EDI. Before the upgrade, the Geth as a race was self-aware, but each individual unit was not, they were basically a hivemind, now each unit is a "person".
** Pretty much this. In order for the geth within a single platform to actually reach mental functioning comparable to a human, geth platforms must operate in large groups so that their network can handle basic functions more effectively and free up processing power for higher functions. Legion was unique in that they had enough geth programs within one specialized platform that they could operate independently. The Reaper codes allowed individual geth programs to become as aware as a true AI, letting them graduate from being simply [=VIs=] working in concert to actual individuals.
** Well, if that is the case, then what happened to the ones inside legion, exactly. As I recall, he had over a thousand programs. If they are all still inside him, even if they are each complex enough by themselves to be their own individual, why does he refer to itself as "I" when there are still so many conciousnesses inside him? Furthermore, isn't it a bit of a cop out for him to accept the reaper code when the geth determined in the previous game that the reason they rejected the reapers is because they wanted to achieve their level of sapience on their own terms?
** Legion uses the Reaper code because of the ''giant Reaper armada invading the galaxy'', which is happening immediately after the quarians destroyed so many geth that overall operating capability within the entire Consensus was hampered to the point that the geth were reverting to baseline survival protocols. The geth don't have time to play around with developing their own tech at this point. The Reapers are here. They need those upgrades ''now''.
** We ''assume'', sure. It's still weird Shepard doesn't have the opportunity to bring up the change in attitude, though.
** I'm pretty sure that Shepard does/can bring it up to Legion and that his response is exactly what the person above you said - the Geth accepted the code out of desparation and that they were now under the influence of the Reapers because of the indoctrination that caused by part of the code and by the Reaper in their fortress (or whatever it is).
** I would assume that the consensus now has the ability to implant individual entities in each Geth casing as seen fit which might lead to internal social climbing such as Geth soldier upgrading to Prime bodies. Originally, the Geth did not want the Reaper led change and so turned their back against it, but desperation and fear of genocide changed their moral imperative to survive. Once the change was incorporated, they were enslaved by the Reapers which leads to Legion's desperate cries to help him and his people. This helped their evolution and they couldn't turn their back on the possibility especially with the looming Reaper invasion. Mankind should never have evolved the atomic weapon but once the possibility was realized, we couldn't deny its allure. All life focuses on its evolution and its survival. The Geth are no different.
** Remember what Sovereign said in Mass Effect 1:
-->'''Sovereign:''' ''[[AC: We are each a nation, independent, free of all weaknesses.]]''
** And Legion in Mass Effect 2 says that the Reapers are made up of many consciousnessess, like the geth, the difference being that the Reapers can also think independantly and individually. With the addition of the Reaper code, so can the geth.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Why take the Citadel]]
* For that matter, is it ever explained WHY the reapers/cerberus tried to "kidnap" the Citadel? were the reapers going to use it as some kind of instant whole planet harvester?
** Because TIM informed the Reapers that the Citadel was the Catalyst, the final component needed to activate the Crucible. The Reapers moved it to Earth orbit, where they had a large force that could protect it.
** The Citadel IS the Catalyst, and as the endings shown, as soon as they attach the Crucible to it the Reapers lose. They weren't so much capturing it to use it as they were capturing it to ensure you couldn't instantly defeat them. In more meta terms, imagine how boring the game would have been if you battled long lines as you waited for the Crucible to dock uncontested with the Citadel, and then have a nice chat with the virtual boy before sacrificing yourself.
** My charitable interpretation is that the people on the Citadel were the ones who closed the arms when the Reapers approached it (there are probably now security protocols in place to prevent them from pulling a Sovereign and using the Citadel to shut down the relay network). The Reapers then moved the closed Citadel to Earth orbit, where it would be protected by a Reaper fleet from any attempts to get the Crucible through. What ''really'' puzzles me is why the Reapers didn't fire on the Crucible after it docked with the Citadel, or even mid-docking.
** Considering how much energy is being put out by the Crucible, I think they're worried about what kind of damage it could do to the Citadel if it were to be destroyed and all that energy was released.
** I agree. The Crucible is said to be incredibly powerful and to require enormous amounts of eezo. In Arrival, we see that an exploding Mass Relay has the power of a supernova. If the Crucible exploding had even 1/1000 of that power, it might still have been enough to destroy the Citadel and all Reaper forces present. Given that the Citadel hosts the Catalyst, it probably didn't want to risk that.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Taking the Citadel]]
* Allright, so at some point the reapers decide to get the citadel back, and do so with such an humiliating ease it apparently took them five minutes top (So no one on the citadel apparently could do the smart thing and close the arms, WTH?). No one ever wonder about what happened to the millions of people on the citadel (though dead or huskified are pretty safe bets).Then the Reapers...I don't know, tow, I guess, the whole whooping citadel through the nearby relay (damn those things are hardcore, that one just shallowed a space object a hundred time bigger than himself). Then they took it to Earth, probably because the plot say so. That whole sequence headscratch me so hard I probably just bore a hole in my skull.
** First, why would it be a stretch for a Relay to move the Citadel? There's never been an established upper limit to what they can move. There's also no evidence that the Reapers took it over in "five minutes top." We just learn that while the Fifth Fleet is storming the Cerberus base that the Reapers took the Citadel and moved it. Third, there's no indication that the Reapers did ''anything'' to the people on the Citadel; from what we can see inside the Citadel's closed Ward arms, there's still plenty of orderly traffic moving around. Most likely what happened, judging by TIM's presence, is that Cerberus took control of the station's control systems and moved it per Reaper orders to Sol. Somehow.
** It'd be a stretch because the Citadel is FAR larger than the meteor that Shepard destroyed the Alpha Relay with, which was way too big for the relay to throw/cast(judging by the fact that the Alpha Relay apparently tried to do so before it was destroyed).
** No. Mass relays do not automatically attempt to send anything through them if they approach. Any object passing through the relay has to communicate to the mass relay first to tell it where it wants to be sent or even ''if'' it wants to be sent.
** It's possible that the Citadel can move by itself, if directed by the Catalyst or the Reapers. It is the single largest concentration of Element Zero in existence, and the heart of the Relay Network after all. It could just use the Network as a guidance system, and make the jump under its own power.
** The Reapers' takeover of the Citadel is triggered by TIM informing them of its nature as the Catalyst. They took it and moved it into Earth's orbit, where they had ammassed a large force that could protect it. They held it for the short time between Shepard's assault on the Cerberus base and the big battle on Earth, so only a few days at most. That's too short a time for them to completely kill or huskify the entire population. As for the Citadel being moved, we don't know if Mass Relays can move themselves, but if they can then the Citadel (the largest Mass Relay in the galaxy) probably could relocate itself.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The Citadel and Relay Network]]
* What happened to everyone on the Citadel when it was taken by the Reapers? A lot of my favorite characters were on board! Aria, Bailey, Liara's dad, possibly Dr. Chakwas and Mordin, the Council (love to hate 'em), Kolyat, Kelly, Dr. Michel, all those other lovable background {{Non Player Character}}s...
** I really wonder about this too, because you can see traffic still flying around on the wards, which makes me wonder if everyone in the wards is still there and going about their business as if nothing happened.
** There is no canon fate for any of them AFAIK, but it's perfectly possible that at least some survived. The Citadel is a massive structure, and even after the Reaper attack it still had plenty of structures left standing to hide in. Also, the Reapers held it for a couple of days at most, which is a very inadequate time to flush everyone out.
** As Vigil explains in the first game, once the Reapers take control of the Citadel, they have total control over the Relay network. The Prothean Empire, and the civilizations of the previous cycles, were defeated -- in part -- because they could no longer make use of the Mass Relays around which their society was built. Reinforcements? Impossible. Communication? Impossible. So why on earth do the Reapers ''allow'' the use of the Relays once they've claimed the Citadel towards the end of the game?
** Because the Catalyst wanted the fleet to reach Earth in the first place to challenge the Reapers.
** I'd be more willing to go with a handwave that the Crucible itself had some sort of jamming signal to prevent the Citadel from being used to its full extent. The Catalyst, after all, tells us that it couldn't even ''conceive'' of "another solution" until the Crucible had docked, so the idea that it ''wanted'' the Reapers to be challenged seems implausible at best. Until it's altered by the Crucible, the Reapers were doing everything in their power to reap as they would normally reap. And, regardless, that there's no attempt to either explain or question why the Relay Network hasn't been shut down remains a pretty glaring omission. I honestly have to wonder if the writers simply forgot what the Citadel was capable of in Reaper hands.
** We actually do get an explanation for why they can't control the network way back in the first game. They control it by controlling the Keepers, and the Keepers no longer respond to their commands. Sovereign had to physically interact with it to try and activate it's own relay, and they may well have simply not had time to get it up and running at full capability yet. Since we never find out how they took it, they might have just gotten an indoctrinated agent on the controls and flown it there under it's own power (it was established early on that the races living there have no idea what 90% of the stuff on it does), then the attack comes as soon as they get it parked.
** That the Keepers no longer respond their signal is irrelevant if they have indoctrinated followers capable of activating the command console, as Saren attempted. They must have already have had a Reaper physically interact with the Citadel to fly the thing to Earth, after all. That being said, the entry on the Crucible's "Inferometric Array" mentions that the Crucible ''is'', indeed, capable of tuning into the command switches of the mass relays....
** So that sounds like they used the Crucible to turn on the mass relay back to Earth, which I suppose would explain why that's the only place you can go.
[[folder: Sex with Javik]]
* This happened to me, and I wasn't even trying to make it happen... seriously, how is this even possible? How can an alien species from 50,000 years ago even have relations with a female human?
** If it's comfortable for you to think that way, nobody said it was sex. They could have just slept in the same bed and done something embarassing. And even if it was, don't underestimate human creativity. The EverythingThatMoves trope exists for a reason: if it moves and is of the right size, probably ''someone'', somewhere, has tried to sleep with it. Best [[{{Squick}} not to think about it]]. Suffice to say there are obvious ways and not-so-obvious ways.
** Humans are [[BoldlyComing able to have sex with other alien species]], and it's likely that Protheans' reproductive process is still just sexual intercourse. If Javik is a male and has... male genitals, then sex is possible. Even if Javik's Tab A isn't a perfect fit for Shepard's Slot B, there are other activities classified as sexual without needing penetration. Pretty much, as always, the biggest problem is getting Javik to agree to it, rather than the difficulty of the act itself. Also, [[BrainBleach I need to go manually remove those images from my mind with a spoon]].
** Additionally, if the internet has taught me anything, it is that no matter the size or shape, "Tab A" can ALWAYS be made to fit into "Slot B".
** [[TheTalk Well, when two creatures love each other very much, or are just very, very drunk....]] I mean, come on, how the fuck do you think they do it? Even if they have completely different and incompatible biology in the physical sense, they can still stimulate erogenous zones until orgasm occurs. Put some bloody imagination into it. This is like asking how a human and a turian could have relations. That Javik is 50,000 years old is entirely irrelevant. Also keep in mind that most likely, they were both ''really'' drunk and might have just flopped around a bit without finding anywhere to deploy the troops, and then passed out.
** It's also perfectly possible that Protheans reproduce in the same way as the asari, using their biotics.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why were the Keepers and Saren even necessary?]]
* If the Catalyst ''is'' the Citadel, why couldn't it have just activated the relay itself? Why bother with the Keepers and after they failed, sending in Saren and Sovereign to activate it manually? I mean, christ, that combined with TIM being a recycling of Saren makes me wonder if Mac Walters knows a damn thing about the series lore.
** Just spitballing here, but perhaps the keepers and Saren were a more recent failsafe introduced as a response to heavy losses sustained in an earlier cycle. It's entirely possible that Vigil was an UnreliableExpositor and that the Protheans were only able to undo changes made by The Catalyst to hasten the harvest over the last few cycles out of frustration that previous cycles yielded less than optimal results. We can infer from the fact that previous cycles were aware of The Catalyst's existence that somewhere along the line, they may have interfered with its ability to directly launch the Reaper harvest, which in turn made the creation of the Keepers necessary. Another possibility is that the Citadel was not always The Catalyst's home (which actually seems likely) and that it was simply moved there in a later cycle without being given full control over its systems. This makes sense if you think about it - certainly any races to discover the Citadel would want to poke around in some of the station's black boxes, which, if they were linked directly to The Catalyst, could inadvertently trigger a Reaper invasion prematurely.
** All indications are that the Catalyst does not directly control the process. It set up the cycle and then simply sat back and let things progress on their own. The Reapers and their cycle are an autonomous process that it doesn't oversee. Besides, if something came along that broke that cycle, the Catalyst is perfectly willing to accept that.
** The problem with that idea is that his ENTIRE EXPLANATION of the relationship is "The Reapers are mine. I control them. They are my solution".
** Which is very vague and non-specific. Observed behavior from the Reapers make it clear that the Catalyst, despite being in overall control, is hands-off and doesn't direct the Reapers itself. It ''could'', theoretically, have intervened if it chose to, but it chose not to intervene in the Protheans' plan and the subsequent struggle against Saren.
** Which choice would have OrcusOnHisThrone marrying the IdiotBall, which was the entire complaint in the first place.
** Indeed, the EC adds that he is the collective intelligence of the Reapers, which means he knows everything they know. Also, considering that in the control ending, Shepard replaces the Catalyst and has complete and utter control over the Reapers, the original Catalyst did as well. As an AI, he knows nothing of 'laziness'. We also see the citadel move at his behest, as well as CatalystShepard's. Then theres the whole elevator thing. Its just not explained. The Catalyst breaks the whole plot of the trilogy. from before the games even started.
** "The Catalyst breaks the whole plot of the trilogy. from before the games even started." Pretty much this. Which is why I ignore the official ending and prefer Vendetta's explanation: the Catalyst is the Citadel.
** This assumes that the Catalyst is always active, and that it has control over the Citadel itself. Three theories I have heard explain the Catalysts lack of action in [=ME=]1 is that:
** 1) The Crucible is necessary for the Catalyst to "wake up", and it is otherwise just running the same subroutines that it runs every cycle. It is essentially a computer that has been set on auto-pilot up until that point, where it is responsible for insuring the Reapers stay on point (harvest the Galaxy of spacefaring races who use the mass relays). When the crucible attaches, it is essentially the same as hooking up a keyboard and mouse to a computer, allowing for you to offer input and change its calculations/routines (similar to how you can change the Heretic Geths' code in [=ME=]2 to correct their inaccurate calculations). It never has changed its code before since the crucible was never attached, and thus it myay not be able to act outside of its old subroutines. Thus it won't adapt well to changes in cycles, since it isn't programmed to adapt well (considering it has been using the same solution to a problem for a billion years). This theory is lent credence in Leviathan, where the Catalyt's creators basically describe the catalyst as a sophisticated but limited VI that is operating in the constraints of its programming.
** 2)The Catalyst is essentially like a Car's computer. Though most modern cars have nearly all aspects controlled by a computer, we would not expect the car to turn on without some input, even though the car's computer is always on. The keepers would activate its control of the citadel in past, allowing it to summon the reapers to begin the new cycle. It likely used this solution either to A)hide from the sentient races, as an AI presence that was always active in the background may raise suspicions(exposing the Catalyst) or B)Save its power and energy, as we see that the Reapers hibernate and this may mean the Catalyst must do so as well. In previous cycles, the Citadel was always seized immediately. For all we know, this reflected the Catalyst coming online and directing the cycle. No one knew it was there since all of the organics on the station were wiped out, and the Mass Relays shut down so no one could approach it.
** 3)The Catalyst is stored on the Citadel, but has no direct control over the structure without the Crucible in place. Similar to the above 2 theories, but instead the Catalyst is only able to control the citadel with its activation via the Crucible. Before that, it can monitor and guide the Reapers, but it is for the most part constrained as a passive observer, who set the mostly independent Reapers on a mission, and then stepped back. This could even be intentional, so that only when a race proved itself capable would it be allowed to affect things, rather than allow anyone to simply hijack control of the entire reaper fleet and mass relay network if crafty enough to hack the citadel. This is supported by the EC and Leviathan, as the Catalyst refers to the crucible as a power source that allows it to act in manners it normally could not, and the Leviathans state that the Catalyst is waiting for an anomaly to prove that the cycles should end.
** This has been mentioned in the WMG for ''2'', but there's also the fact that even with the delay in the Reaper arrival from, well, [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin Arrival]], it apparently takes the Reaper fleet less than a year to reach Batarian space from wherever they're hanging out in dark space. For a species who have been around for tens of millions of years (at least), this is nothing. Why bother activating the Citadel Relay to dark space at all? If all it takes is a couple of months, why doesn't the Reaper fleet just mosey on over to the Alpha Relay when it's good and ready and take everyone by total surprise that way? Particularly once the Protheans disable the Keeper signal.
** It actually took them over a millennium to reach Batarian space from wherever they're hanging out. Remember, Saren and the Geth were not Sovereign's first attempt at solving the problem with the Citadel Relay. The genocide signal's been active since earlier than the rachni war.
** No, actually in a tweet [[WordOfGod Bioware said]] that the reapers have been on the move since the moment Sovereign was destroyed. If the reapers had been on the move since a millennium then they would be at a considerable distance from their origin with their relay to the Citadel, if that's the case, then why did Sovereign bothered to activate the Citadel since their buddies would arrive soon anyway?
** So that would mean that it took 2-3 years for them to travel from Dark Space (Between [=ME=]1 and [=ME=]2, Shepard is on a mission for several months before he is dead for two years, plus his time working for Cerberus and his arrest) to reaching the edge of the Galaxy. Once there, they just would hijack the closest Mass Relay. It still seems pretty quick though.
** Technically, relays can be moved. Whilst moving towards the galaxy from dark space, the Reapers could have brought the dark space-Citadel relay with them.
** One wonders why the Citadel activates it and not the other way around. They however did not bring it with them, they could have just used to to fling themselves into the galaxy for a very nasty surprise.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why didn't the Reapers just... wait?]]
* Now I'm not looking for a Meta-Explanation here, I know that if the reapers didn't come through we wouldn't have a game. But... Okay, they wish to operate without knowledge or resistance until it's too late, right? So... why not just wait like... 150-200 years? By that point the only person who would be left alive to remind the galaxy of the reapers would be Liara, Wrex, Samara and possibly Morinth. (It seems to be implied that Wrex is kind of old by even [=ME=]1, so he probably doesn't have that long.) Even if Sheppard is like "The Reapers are coming!" to his dying day, he won't be listened to because the Reapers just wouldn't arrive. Look, I know they have their cycle, but it was already delayed by a few years- they wait ''fifty thousand'' before harvesting another species, are we really supposed to buy that they aren't patient enough to be like: "We're being prepared for, better hold of the invasion for just a little bit."
** According to extra materials, the current cycle being left in the dark about the Reapers is something of an anomaly. Many cycles were successfully able to warn the next, but obviously even clear warnings didn't allow the previous cycles much more of a chance. For reference, Shepard is the only organic they consider a threat. Besides, who says a galactic invasion was a bad idea? They ''were'' winning the war, and the battle for Earth was a DesperationAttack with the remnants of the galactic civilizations using their greatest superweapon available. Quite frankly, with their superior numbers, technology, and durability, the Reapers ''always'' won, even against cycles better-prepared than Shepards, so don't blame them for assuming this one wouldn't be too different.
** The last stand was a desperation attack but that was mostly due to the Citadel now being in Reaper controlled hands, which was the fault of Cerberus, not the reapers themselves, the Reapers are smart, with Shep leading the charge, he had foiled the Reapers plans to get through to the galaxy at large, not once, but three times, the Reapers know who they are dealing with, it would be a simple matter to wait for Shepard and those who took him seriously to die or fall into obscurity.
** The Reapers are pushing to attack now because it's time to attack. They've been preparing to attack at this point and the assault is already behind schedule, and the only people who know about the real threat are Shepard's rather small circle and the Geth Consensus. In fact, the latter point is one of the single most compelling reasons to attack ''now'': the Consensus is a force of perfectly rational synthetic intelligences that are fully aware of the Reaper threat and will take whatever steps necessary to defend itself from them, and giving them any more time to prepare than they already have is just going to make things worse.
** Clever! The Geth didn't rush back into the arms of the Old Machines until the quarians attacked them in Priority: Rannoch. And by that point the Reaper invasion was already underway, so the genie was out of the bottle. Ironically if Harbinger had just delayed the invasion by another year or two, gambling that the quarians were going to attack the Geth eventually, the whole thing might have worked out in their favor. If the Geth rejected the Old Machines, then the quarians probably would have wiped them out. If the Geth embraced the Old Machines, then they would have mopped the floor with the quarians. Either way, the Geth are no longer a threat to the Reapers' plans.
** I think if the Collectors had managed to snatch Shepard's body before Cerberus got to it in [=ME=]2 the Reapers might just have decided to wait another century or three before invading. When the Collectors failed, Harbinger felt they needed to step up the time-table.
** Their advance man, Sovereign, had failed in a direct assault on the Citadel. The only reason the races of the universe didn't begin to prepare in that instance is because of the colossal idiocy of the Council handwaving away the threat. The Reapers' plans couldn't possibly account for that so they moved in.
** It's casually stated here and there that the Reapers believe what they're doing to be for the benefit of the organics they destroy. If you want to get aa good idea why a few centuries would be a bad idea to them, look no further than the quarians and humanity. A few centuries is all it took to turn them from one of the most advanced species to some backwater hicks, and the humans vice-versa (in even less time). The Reapers' goal is to preserve each species at the top of their game, and if it sees humanity as capital ship material, who the hell knows what'll happen to this unpredictable-as-hell species in ''ten'' years, let alone a few centuries.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Reaper Blackstar: What's with the handgrip?]]
* It just seems odd that the Reapers would make a weapon with a human-style handgrip and trigger when they could easily integrate it with a husk's body instead, like with the Scion's shockwave cannon in [=ME=]2. Otherwise, it's like they're just ''begging'' for someone like Shepard to pick it up and turn it against them. Also, if the Blackstar is such an effective weapon, why don't we see the Reapers using large-scale versions of it as anti-dreadnought weapons, instead of spamming Thanix beams all over the place?
** Makes it easier for an indoctrinated soldier or techie to bring this heavy weapon into their base and blow up key personnel or armory.
** It's also a one-shot weapon. In-universe it could be something the Reapers made recently and are testing. Given its destructive capabilites and only firing once, it's possible the Reapers intended this to be used by a suicide bomber tactic.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Reapers Don't Know How to Aim Rockets or Ballistics (Thessia)]]
* On Thessia, at the very beginning of the mission Sheppard gets to an Asari post headed by Lieutenant Kurin. The perimeter is soon breached, an Asari blocks the breach with a biotic bubble and Sheppard has to get on the turret to shoot Brutes and Husks. When this fight is over there's a cut scene. During this scene, the reaper forces launch rockets at the biotic bubble. If we look at the rockets' paths closely, we can see their trajectory is curved, in both the horizontal and vertical planes. This implies guided flight. Why can't the reapers just aim to hit the area behind the bubble? Actually, if one of the rockets had just been aimed a little bit more to the right (seen from our perspective during the cut scene), it would have been able to fly over what remained of the original fence and hit behind the fence, right in the middle of the courtyard. In the cutscene this rocket hits the biotic bubble but the bubble is higher than the fence. For that matter, have the Reapers ever heard of mortars? It is true that there are major difference between a mortar and a bazooka. A modern fighting unit equipped with self-propelled rockets might not be able to accomplish what a unit equipped with mortars could. However, the Reapers are leagues ahead of us technologically: using a rocket as a mortar round should be nothing to them.
** Husks aren't exactly smart. They rely more on their overwhelming numbers and toughness to win, and in a situation where that's not enough, they'll wait for an actual reaper to lend support. It's possible that whatever was firing the rockets just saw the Asari bubble and went "enemy = shoot" and would just keep firing until it was dead. Not the best explanation, but still.
** Or, they knew exactly what they were doing. Even at that point, everyone knew Thessia was lost. The Reapers are all about breaking their enemies' spirits, so letting the commandos watch their defenses being whittled down, begging for reinforcements and being slowly overwhelmed by husks, would be more psychologically terrifying to others listening in than than just blowing them to kingdom come. Perhaps inefficient, but the Reapers have billions more soldiers on their side and all the time in the universe, so they wouldn't care.
** Or, HollywoodTactics.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The Reapers haven't watched The Terminator]]
* Ok, by now we all know the reapers' plan. What I see as the biggest flaw in the Catalyst's logic is that it makes the assumption that organic life will conquer ftl travel sooner than it will develop artificial intelligence. Now, assuming this was to happen and the worst case scenario were to occur with the A.I. killing the pre-spaceflight organics that created it, would it not be possible if not probable for the A.I. to become itself spacefaring and potentially cause the destruction of galactic life halfway between reaper harvesting?
** Presumably the Reapers kill off any synthetic races they find during their harvesting runs. At most, the pre-FTL synthetics would go undetected during the current cycle and then be wiped out 50,000 years later.
** The Reaper vanguard's job is to make sure this doesn't happen. It keeps an eye on the galactic situation, and if a synthetic creation starts running amok, it would trigger the harvest early to deal with it. This is a common fallacy that a lot of people make when considering the Reaper's cycle: they assume that the Reapers are blind to the goings-on of the galaxy, when the Reapers have both their vanguard (Sovereign) and slave species (Collectors, controlled by Harbinger) to keep an eye on the galaxy for precisely this reason. Remember that the current cycle is an extreme fluke because Sovereign couldn't just call down the Reaper fleets early. In previous cycles the Reapers would just swoop down on any abnormalities and smash them flat.
** That is flat-out wrong. Javik says that the Protheans were engaged in a galactic-scale war with a Synthetic species for much of their history, and were starting to make real gains when the Reapers came.
** Which proves what, exactly? The Protheans were fighting a synthetic species, yes, but that synthetic species was not on the verge of winning and taking over the galaxy. The Reapers would be expected to trigger a harvest if it became apparent that synthetic life was going to take over the galaxy; that's the vanguard's job.
** Moreover, as long as the Synthetic and Organic species are fighting themselves to a standstill, that just makes the Reapers' job easier. Once one of them seizes the upper-hand decisively, they can move in an smash both of them at their weakest.
** The problem is that according to the Catalyst Synthetics always win.
** So? The Catalyst is not a truly omnicscient and infalliable entity. The fact that you're talking to it proves that much outright.
** Rather, the synthetics would always win ''eventually''.
** More specifically, that since Synthetics are vastly more efficient than any organic race, it would only take ''one'' genocidally intolerant synthetic race achieving victory to spell the doom of all organic intelligent races across the galaxy forever.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Harbinger shooting the Normandy]]
* Different example, but same principle, when Shepard calls in the Normandy to evaculate his team in the Extended cut, why doesn't Harbinger take advantage of this and blast both his nemesis and the ship? They are sitting ducks, I seriiously doubt they would be able to withstand the attack for long.
** That bugged me initially as well, but then I figured that Harbinger's priority at that moment was to stop everyone from getting to the Conduit and up to the Citadel (remember it wasn't just Shepard and co making a break for it, pretty much the entirety of Hammer was running for it as well), so Harbinger would have been focusing everything it had on the people charging the Conduit. Also note, that when Harbinger assumes everyone is dead, it takes off, [[FridgeBrilliance which could mean that it was going after the Normandy to finish the job.]]
** Or due to the Reaper IFF, Harbinger saw a Reaper standing right in front of Shepard and his crew and he leaves having assumed that it killed Shepard (the only person they have come to fear).
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The Reapers' Rachni Queen]]
* Two questions here: why was the Rachni Queen able to resist the effects of the Reapers' indoctrination? Also, she made it clear that if she had any more children, they would be able to help build the Crucible, so why were ''they'' immune to the effects of the Reapers' indoctrination when the Ravagers she'd given birth to before were more than happy to attack everything in sight?
** Those Ravagers were heavily roboticised, so I'd say we weren't looking at Indoctrinated rachni so much as huskified rachni. As for resisting Indoctrination, no idea. Maybe a prepared HiveMind can fend off Indoctrination (that is why the saved queen can help you, while the new queen if you didn't save the first one betrays you the first chance she gets).
** Remember in the first game where the Queen tells you about "the ones who soured the songs of our ancestors". That creepy Russian scientist guy also said that the Rachni Queens are born with all the born with the memories of their fathers/mothers. I just assumed that the Rachni Queen you save had the memories of what was done to her people and had the time to figure out a way to dodge being indoctrinated.
** The queens can probably resist indoctrination, but lesser rachni like workers, soldiers, and brood warriors can't. If what happened to the rachni queen is any indicator, Sovereign took control of various nests' lesser rachni and imprisoned the queen, using her to breed more warriors.
** I think we can chalk it up to a mix of GeneticMemory and HiveMind. Rachni queens carry the memories of their ancestors, which might give them a resistance to indoctrination; on top of that, their GeneticMemory also seems like an offshoot of their HiveMind, and it's shown elsewhere that a HiveMind is capable of preventing indoctrination from taking hold. It's what allows Shiala, who still ''is'' indoctrinated, to not be overcome by the Reapers' will. The rachni enemies that Shepard encounters are all husks, which are a mix of organic tissue ''and'' synthetic material because of Reaper interference. The Queen herself is still fully organic, as are the children the Queen produces after being freed.
** We get at least a hint, if not outright confirmation, that hive minds are inherently resistant to indoctrination from Shiala. Assuming you helped Zhu's Hope out previously, she sends you an email revealing that they are fighting the invasion effectively because the Thorian's implantation has linked their minds permanently, and she also admits that she is still indoctrinated. I don't recall her exact words, but it is something along the lines of she is able to hear the Reapers' whispers, but the voices of the Zhu's Hope colonists are stronger and so the whispers can't affect her. As a result, it is safe to assume properly networked Rachni have an even stronger hive mind and are thus even more resistant to indoctrination. As for the queen herself, recall that Benezia was able to fight off indoctrination briefly. As the head of an absolutely massive hive mind, I for one think it is safe to say that Rachni Queens are by many orders of magnitude the most powerful-minded beings in existence, surpassing probably all asari matriarchs combined. The Queen from Noveria seems more annoyed and dismissive of indoctrination when we encounter her in 3 than concerned by it, and knowing how strong indoctrination is, any being that can consider it to be merely an annoyance is frighteningly powerful.
** Here's a thought: the Leviathan DLC postulates that the titular Leviathans may have been responsible for the Rachni Wars due to the use of their own mind control. Of course, this conflicts with the previous games, as it was theorized in-universe that the Reapers were behind it. Yet, even in Mass Effect 1, the setting establishes that powerful hive minds seem to have an immunity to indoctrination, and the Leviathans would've had no reason to set the Rachni against the Council races. Here's my theory: who says it wasn't both of them? Sovereign may have attempted to indoctrinate the Rachni to serve as his underlings, but they resisted. At the same time, the Leviathans tried to take control of the Rachni for whatever reason (either to gain an army to help fight the Reapers or just to prevent Sovereign from getting them). The Rachni may have been able to hold off one form of mind control with no ill effects, but the combined strength of two different forms of indoctrination coming from two powerful species (and likely giving conflicting orders) drove the Rachni into a frenzy, thus causing the Rachni Wars. I'll admit, this may belong in WMG, but considering that the Leviathan mind control caused the creation of the Awakened Collectors, this seems fairly plausible.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Scions and Praetorians]]
* Why the absence of these enemies? Being made from Husks, there should be plenty of materials on hand for the Reapers to make more of them, and we know that the Scions, at least, are not Collector-dependent, as they show up on the Derelict Reaper.
** Ravagers do the same job as Scions with greater mobility. Pretorians's limited effectiveness against Shepard's team likely resulted in them being phased out; Harvesters do a better job overall as close air support platforms.
** Bigger question on my mind is where did all the mechs go? You'd think that with the Reaper invasion they'd be in higher demand than ever. Hell, they'd make perfect canon fodder for TIM's army.
** Considering how unreliable they proved in the previous game, I wouldn't be surprised that TIM just refused to use them to guard critical installations, let alone have them deployed on strike ops.
** [[spoiler:The mechs return in the Omega DLC, having been rebuilt into much more mobile and dangerous Rampart Mechs.]]
** Scions and Praetorians are now part of the Collector forces in multiplayer.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Reaper Tech and Indoctrination]]
* Isn't anybody worried about people in the Alliance, Council, or other races being indoctrinated during the main story? The Reaper tech you picked up during the N7 Sanctum mission goes straight to Alliance researchers and nobody thinks that might be a problem? The Derelict Reaper from Mass Effect 2 proved that Reaper corpses with any kind of power can still generate enough juice to indoctrinate organics ... yet nobody seems to be bothered by giant Reaper corpses now sitting on Tuchanka and Rannoch?
** The small Reaper devices are likely safe; the only Reaper devices encountered that caused indoctrination are large-scale objects like Reaper themselves, Object Rho, and the device in the mine. As for the dead Reapers on Tuchanka and Rannoch, those would likely be disassembled - explosively - and the areas around them would be marked as no-go zones until the Reaper is completely destroyed. Remember that once Sovereign was destroyed, there was no danger of indoctrination on the Citadel from the wreckage, and the derelict Reaper was still largely intact with a functional power core. The Reapers disabled on Tuchanka and Rannoch were completely destroyed with no intact power supplies, and indoctrination fields can only exist if the Reaper is still getting power and is intact, and both of those Reapers were very much not intact by the end.
** In the Shadow Broker files it's discussed how some Reaper tech is being analyzed from distance using remote drones to avoid the Indoctrination effect. Most likely all these objects are treated as extremely hazardous materials, and no-one will approach them in person once they've been secured.
** In the ''Leviathan'' DLC, the research lab has a rather large fragment of Sovereign on display. If questioned, the staff will reply that it is behind very powerful energy shields and that they have regular psych evaluations just in case that isn't enough. Apparently mass effect fields can block the indoctrination signal.
** Even if they are isolated, if they are still capable of indoctrination the wreck on Tuchanka is right in the territory of ''the mother of all Thresher Maws''. Imagine that thing being indoctrinated or huskified...
** Again, if the Reaper tech is sufficiently damaged then it cannot indoctrinate. The Reaper's power core needs to be active to generate husks or indoctrination fields, and if Kalros inflicts sufficient damage to the Reaper, which is indicated when it attacks, then the Reaper will be completely inert.
** There is no indication of how damaged a Reaper has to be to lose its indoctrination field; judging from the Derelict Reaper they don't have to be in a sapient condition do cause the effect. However, even if the field continues to excert influence, I doubt that a creature as simple as the Tresher Maw could be affected; it's not the type of creature to understand the complex ideas that the indoctrination influences on; at best a Reaper could guide it to attack specified targets, but since the Reaper is dead, there is nothing Kalros is likely to do besides what it has always done, which is to guard its territory.
** Actually, Liara explicitly tells Glyph that the Krogan should avoid the area because the destroyer ''is'' still active.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Reapers' attack on Sanctuary]]
* If the reapers have the Illusive man in their pocket via indoctrination, what is the point of their attack on Sanctuary?
** They attacked at the point where [=TIM=]'s research into Reaper control mechanisms got far enough that they believed he could end up becoming a threat. The real question is why they thought that if an indoctrinated person could not take control of them.
** TIM might not have been able to gain control of them, but if the research at Sanctuary had been allowed to continued it might have ended up in non-indoctrinated hands. That would be reason enough to wipe out Sanctuary.
** "Indoctrinated" does not mean "absolutely and totally under their control." TIM was indoctrinated to the point where he was useful if manipulated with subtlety, but he could still act overly on his own if he wanted to. Besides, the facility as a whole was a threat regardless; if the Alliance or any other galactic power found Sanctuary, they could use the research just as readily as Cerberus.
** The man running the place for TIM ISN't indoctrinated.
** TIM's investigation of Reaper code leaves a trail that could make the war more difficult for Reaper armada. He is leaving bread crumbs which will help others if not stopped. Just like Saren left bread crumbs which enraged Sovereign: the beacon, the Thorian, the Krogan facility on Virmire. Humanity has found a hero that gets those bread crumbs and uses it against the Reaper agenda, just like he did with the crumbs those damned Protheans left behind and also the secret weapon passed down through countless cycles and kept secret each time. The Reapers don't want peace, they want dominance. Anything else is a nuisance.
** An alternative hypothesis: The Reapers attacked explicitly to give TIM the illusion that he posed a credible threat to them, thus reinforcing his delusion that he is not indoctrinated and working toward their ultimate goals.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Legion and the Reaper Code]]
* What does the code do and how does it allow the geth to achieve 'true' consciousness? What IS true consciousness? The geth as a whole seemed pretty to have a good grasp of awareness even if it was different from how organics think. What changed that the geth were no longer hundreds of programs interacting and is now an 'individual'?
** The difference seems to be that, while a regular Geth program is non-sentient, the Geth as a whole only attaining self-awareness through the consensus, a single Reaper-upgraded Geth program is complex enough to be self-aware. Each single Geth program was upgraded to the level of EDI. Before the upgrade, the Geth as a race was self-aware, but each individual unit was not, they were basically a hivemind, now each unit is a "person".
** Pretty much this. In order for the geth within a single platform to actually reach mental functioning comparable to a human, geth platforms must operate in large groups so that their network can handle basic functions more effectively and free up processing power for higher functions. Legion was unique in that they had enough geth programs within one specialized platform that they could operate independently. The Reaper codes allowed individual geth programs to become as aware as a true AI, letting them graduate from being simply [=VIs=] working in concert to actual individuals.
** Well, if that is the case, then what happened to the ones inside legion, exactly. As I recall, he had over a thousand programs. If they are all still inside him, even if they are each complex enough by themselves to be their own individual, why does he refer to itself as "I" when there are still so many conciousnesses inside him? Furthermore, isn't it a bit of a cop out for him to accept the reaper code when the geth determined in the previous game that the reason they rejected the reapers is because they wanted to achieve their level of sapience on their own terms?
** Legion uses the Reaper code because of the ''giant Reaper armada invading the galaxy'', which is happening immediately after the quarians destroyed so many geth that overall operating capability within the entire Consensus was hampered to the point that the geth were reverting to baseline survival protocols. The geth don't have time to play around with developing their own tech at this point. The Reapers are here. They need those upgrades ''now''.
** We ''assume'', sure. It's still weird Shepard doesn't have the opportunity to bring up the change in attitude, though.
** I'm pretty sure that Shepard does/can bring it up to Legion and that his response is exactly what the person above you said - the Geth accepted the code out of desparation and that they were now under the influence of the Reapers because of the indoctrination that caused by part of the code and by the Reaper in their fortress (or whatever it is).
** I would assume that the consensus now has the ability to implant individual entities in each Geth casing as seen fit which might lead to internal social climbing such as Geth soldier upgrading to Prime bodies. Originally, the Geth did not want the Reaper led change and so turned their back against it, but desperation and fear of genocide changed their moral imperative to survive. Once the change was incorporated, they were enslaved by the Reapers which leads to Legion's desperate cries to help him and his people. This helped their evolution and they couldn't turn their back on the possibility especially with the looming Reaper invasion. Mankind should never have evolved the atomic weapon but once the possibility was realized, we couldn't deny its allure. All life focuses on its evolution and its survival. The Geth are no different.
** Remember what Sovereign said in Mass Effect 1:
-->'''Sovereign:''' ''[[AC: We are each a nation, independent, free of all weaknesses.]]''
** And Legion in Mass Effect 2 says that the Reapers are made up of many consciousnessess, like the geth, the difference being that the Reapers can also think independantly and individually. With the addition of the Reaper code, so can the geth.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Why take the Citadel]]
* For that matter, is it ever explained WHY the reapers/cerberus tried to "kidnap" the Citadel? were the reapers going to use it as some kind of instant whole planet harvester?
** Because TIM informed the Reapers that the Citadel was the Catalyst, the final component needed to activate the Crucible. The Reapers moved it to Earth orbit, where they had a large force that could protect it.
** The Citadel IS the Catalyst, and as the endings shown, as soon as they attach the Crucible to it the Reapers lose. They weren't so much capturing it to use it as they were capturing it to ensure you couldn't instantly defeat them. In more meta terms, imagine how boring the game would have been if you battled long lines as you waited for the Crucible to dock uncontested with the Citadel, and then have a nice chat with the virtual boy before sacrificing yourself.
** My charitable interpretation is that the people on the Citadel were the ones who closed the arms when the Reapers approached it (there are probably now security protocols in place to prevent them from pulling a Sovereign and using the Citadel to shut down the relay network). The Reapers then moved the closed Citadel to Earth orbit, where it would be protected by a Reaper fleet from any attempts to get the Crucible through. What ''really'' puzzles me is why the Reapers didn't fire on the Crucible after it docked with the Citadel, or even mid-docking.
** Considering how much energy is being put out by the Crucible, I think they're worried about what kind of damage it could do to the Citadel if it were to be destroyed and all that energy was released.
** I agree. The Crucible is said to be incredibly powerful and to require enormous amounts of eezo. In Arrival, we see that an exploding Mass Relay has the power of a supernova. If the Crucible exploding had even 1/1000 of that power, it might still have been enough to destroy the Citadel and all Reaper forces present. Given that the Citadel hosts the Catalyst, it probably didn't want to risk that.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Taking the Citadel]]
* Allright, so at some point the reapers decide to get the citadel back, and do so with such an humiliating ease it apparently took them five minutes top (So no one on the citadel apparently could do the smart thing and close the arms, WTH?). No one ever wonder about what happened to the millions of people on the citadel (though dead or huskified are pretty safe bets).Then the Reapers...I don't know, tow, I guess, the whole whooping citadel through the nearby relay (damn those things are hardcore, that one just shallowed a space object a hundred time bigger than himself). Then they took it to Earth, probably because the plot say so. That whole sequence headscratch me so hard I probably just bore a hole in my skull.
** First, why would it be a stretch for a Relay to move the Citadel? There's never been an established upper limit to what they can move. There's also no evidence that the Reapers took it over in "five minutes top." We just learn that while the Fifth Fleet is storming the Cerberus base that the Reapers took the Citadel and moved it. Third, there's no indication that the Reapers did ''anything'' to the people on the Citadel; from what we can see inside the Citadel's closed Ward arms, there's still plenty of orderly traffic moving around. Most likely what happened, judging by TIM's presence, is that Cerberus took control of the station's control systems and moved it per Reaper orders to Sol. Somehow.
** It'd be a stretch because the Citadel is FAR larger than the meteor that Shepard destroyed the Alpha Relay with, which was way too big for the relay to throw/cast(judging by the fact that the Alpha Relay apparently tried to do so before it was destroyed).
** No. Mass relays do not automatically attempt to send anything through them if they approach. Any object passing through the relay has to communicate to the mass relay first to tell it where it wants to be sent or even ''if'' it wants to be sent.
** It's possible that the Citadel can move by itself, if directed by the Catalyst or the Reapers. It is the single largest concentration of Element Zero in existence, and the heart of the Relay Network after all. It could just use the Network as a guidance system, and make the jump under its own power.
** The Reapers' takeover of the Citadel is triggered by TIM informing them of its nature as the Catalyst. They took it and moved it into Earth's orbit, where they had ammassed a large force that could protect it. They held it for the short time between Shepard's assault on the Cerberus base and the big battle on Earth, so only a few days at most. That's too short a time for them to completely kill or huskify the entire population. As for the Citadel being moved, we don't know if Mass Relays can move themselves, but if they can then the Citadel (the largest Mass Relay in the galaxy) probably could relocate itself.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The Citadel and Relay Network]]
* What happened to everyone on the Citadel when it was taken by the Reapers? A lot of my favorite characters were on board! Aria, Bailey, Liara's dad, possibly Dr. Chakwas and Mordin, the Council (love to hate 'em), Kolyat, Kelly, Dr. Michel, all those other lovable background {{Non Player Character}}s...
** I really wonder about this too, because you can see traffic still flying around on the wards, which makes me wonder if everyone in the wards is still there and going about their business as if nothing happened.
** There is no canon fate for any of them AFAIK, but it's perfectly possible that at least some survived. The Citadel is a massive structure, and even after the Reaper attack it still had plenty of structures left standing to hide in. Also, the Reapers held it for a couple of days at most, which is a very inadequate time to flush everyone out.
** As Vigil explains in the first game, once the Reapers take control of the Citadel, they have total control over the Relay network. The Prothean Empire, and the civilizations of the previous cycles, were defeated -- in part -- because they could no longer make use of the Mass Relays around which their society was built. Reinforcements? Impossible. Communication? Impossible. So why on earth do the Reapers ''allow'' the use of the Relays once they've claimed the Citadel towards the end of the game?
** Because the Catalyst wanted the fleet to reach Earth in the first place to challenge the Reapers.
** I'd be more willing to go with a handwave that the Crucible itself had some sort of jamming signal to prevent the Citadel from being used to its full extent. The Catalyst, after all, tells us that it couldn't even ''conceive'' of "another solution" until the Crucible had docked, so the idea that it ''wanted'' the Reapers to be challenged seems implausible at best. Until it's altered by the Crucible, the Reapers were doing everything in their power to reap as they would normally reap. And, regardless, that there's no attempt to either explain or question why the Relay Network hasn't been shut down remains a pretty glaring omission. I honestly have to wonder if the writers simply forgot what the Citadel was capable of in Reaper hands.
** We actually do get an explanation for why they can't control the network way back in the first game. They control it by controlling the Keepers, and the Keepers no longer respond to their commands. Sovereign had to physically interact with it to try and activate it's own relay, and they may well have simply not had time to get it up and running at full capability yet. Since we never find out how they took it, they might have just gotten an indoctrinated agent on the controls and flown it there under it's own power (it was established early on that the races living there have no idea what 90% of the stuff on it does), then the attack comes as soon as they get it parked.
** That the Keepers no longer respond their signal is irrelevant if they have indoctrinated followers capable of activating the command console, as Saren attempted. They must have already have had a Reaper physically interact with the Citadel to fly the thing to Earth, after all. That being said, the entry on the Crucible's "Inferometric Array" mentions that the Crucible ''is'', indeed, capable of tuning into the command switches of the mass relays....
** So that sounds like they used the Crucible to turn on the mass relay back to Earth, which I suppose would explain why that's the only place you can go.
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** Samara and Miranda both go into battle in a SpyCatsuit and Jack fights in a ratty pair of trousers and a belt across her chest. Compared to that a gap at the knees is nothing. Even Jacob, Thane, Liara and Kaiden wear less armour than most others. Biotics (krogan and turians aside) tend to favour movement over heavy protection, presumably since they have their barriers at all times anyway.
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** Samara and Miranda both go into battle in a SpyCatsuit and Jack fights in a ratty pair of trousers and a belt across her chest. Compared to that a gap at the knees is nothing. Even Jacob, Thane, Liara and Kaiden wear less armour than most others. Biotics (krogan and turians aside) tend to favour free movement over heavy protection, presumably since they have their barriers at all times anyway.
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** Samara and Miranda both go into battle in a SpyCatsuit and Jack fights in a ratty pair of trousers and a belt across her chest. Compared to that a gap at the knees is nothing. Even Jacob, Thane, Liara and Kaiden wear less armour than most others. Biotics (krogan and turians aside) tend to favour movement over heavy protection, presumably since they have their barriers at all times anyway.
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** Like everyone else, Javik has shields. He's a biotic as well, so his shields are backed up by biotic barriers. Like everyone else, his armor is a backup to both of those. He doesn't wear a helmet either, even in vacuum, and the head is a more appealing target than the knees. It ''is odd, though.
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** Like everyone else, Javik has shields. He's a biotic as well, so his shields are backed up by biotic barriers. Like everyone else, his armor is a backup to both of those. He doesn't wear a helmet either, even in vacuum, and the head is a more appealing target than the knees. It ''is ''is'' odd, though.
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** Like everyone else, Javik has shields. He's a biotic as well, so his shields are backed up by biotic barriers. Like everyone else, his armor is a backup to both of those. He doesn't wear a helmet either, even in vacuum, and the head is a more appealing target than the knees. It ''is odd, though.
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[[/folder]]
[[folder: Javik's lack of Armour]]
* Javik appeared to be wearing a black bodysuit under red armour. However, there is a part around his knees that is a very similar green-blue color to his skin. If it's the same color as his skin, why doesn't it match the color of the rest of his armour? If those are actually Javik's knees, why does his armor leave his knees exposed?
[[folder: Javik's lack of Armour]]
* Javik appeared to be wearing a black bodysuit under red armour. However, there is a part around his knees that is a very similar green-blue color to his skin. If it's the same color as his skin, why doesn't it match the color of the rest of his armour? If those are actually Javik's knees, why does his armor leave his knees exposed?
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** This is actually the result of a retcon. As of Mass Effect 1, those statues were originally meant to represent Protheans. The mechanical tubes and vague appearance were because the artists, animators and writers didn't have an agreement on what the Protheans looked like. Then along came the Collectors of Mass Effect 2 who were [[spoiler: heavily altered Protheans]], which the game lampshades. In Mass Effect 3 they had to work backwards from [[spoiler: the Collectors]] when designing [[spoiler: Javik and the other Protheans]]. When the issue of the statues on Ilos came up, this was retconned to be the Prothean's predecessors/precursors the Inusannon.
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** For all their intelligence, the Reapers are still bound to their own programming. They were created to solve a problem that happened in the Milky Way, therefore, that's what they do.
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Cutting a few entries that are irrelevant complaining.
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*** Incorrect. Shepard has to unlock the relays to allow the Alliance fleet through, because Sovereign 'locked' them. That's proof that the functionality WAS still working. ShowDontTell applies to the Citadel in Mass Effect 3, because a major plot point (the Reapers MOVING the Citadel) is considered so unimportant it happens offscreen. Really? Not even a cutscene showing it? It's just suddenly in Earth orbit!
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*** Incorrect. Shepard has to unlock the relays to allow the Alliance fleet through, because Sovereign 'locked' them. That's proof that the functionality WAS still working. ShowDontTell applies to the Citadel in Mass Effect 3, because a major plot point (the Reapers MOVING the Citadel) is considered so unimportant it happens offscreen. Really? Not even a cutscene showing it? It's just suddenly in Earth orbit!
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** VillainDecay. They never actually thought everything through. They wanted Sovereign to be a big threat to a fleet, but forgot that if they wanted the galaxy to stand a chance against the entire Reaper armada, they couldn't really be strong enough to take on multiple fleets at once. So by ME3, the Reapers individually are not as powerful as Sovereign. It's even stated in the codex a single Sovereign-class Reaper can be overwhelmed if facing more than three dreadnoughts at once, because their kinetic barriers can only withstand so much. This is potentially explainable IF there weren't more than one or two dreadnoughts in the battle at the end of the first game.
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** There's never been any indication that they go to other galaxies. Most likely they just hibernate, unless ''Andromeda'' will say otherwise.
[[/folder]]
[[/folder]]
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[[folder:Detecting a Reaper on Rannoch]]
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[[folder:Detecting a Reaper on Rannoch]]Rannoch.]]
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Question that's been bugging me.
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[[folder:Do the Reapers only take out one galaxy, or do they go to many?]]
* It would be very stupid if they only did the Milky Way, as there are very likely many space faring species in other galaxies. While galaxies would take a long time to get to, we know from the Codex that Reapers manage 30 light years per day (half again as fast as a dreadnought). Applying to Andromeda (Messier 31), it would take around 85,000 days or 232 years to reach there. That order of magnitude is certainly not beyond the reach of Asari or Krogan life spans, let alone Reapers, and even Humans could manage colonization given minimal attention to cold sleep. Other galaxies would take longer (Messier 33 would take 249 years). At one point however the Codex mentions that some Reaper tech appears to violate known Physics. At that point all bets are off. Sovereign said to Shepard that basically time is not at all a problem to Reapers. Remember in Mass Effect, Sovereign is trying to allow the citadel to be used as a relay to get his buddies back from "dark space", maybe they're actually in the next galaxy, with its own citadel style relay to get back to the milky way. In that 50,000 cycle, between it, is it possible the Reapers "hibernating" is actually them reaping other galaxies?
* It would be very stupid if they only did the Milky Way, as there are very likely many space faring species in other galaxies. While galaxies would take a long time to get to, we know from the Codex that Reapers manage 30 light years per day (half again as fast as a dreadnought). Applying to Andromeda (Messier 31), it would take around 85,000 days or 232 years to reach there. That order of magnitude is certainly not beyond the reach of Asari or Krogan life spans, let alone Reapers, and even Humans could manage colonization given minimal attention to cold sleep. Other galaxies would take longer (Messier 33 would take 249 years). At one point however the Codex mentions that some Reaper tech appears to violate known Physics. At that point all bets are off. Sovereign said to Shepard that basically time is not at all a problem to Reapers. Remember in Mass Effect, Sovereign is trying to allow the citadel to be used as a relay to get his buddies back from "dark space", maybe they're actually in the next galaxy, with its own citadel style relay to get back to the milky way. In that 50,000 cycle, between it, is it possible the Reapers "hibernating" is actually them reaping other galaxies?
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** There are two other issues. First, to all appearances, the Reapers need their raw materials to be ''alive'' - they preserved the colonists on Freedom's Progress and Horizon, rather than simply killing them and turning up with a vat of biomass. Now look at what's happening on Palaven when you visit Menae. There are fires the size of ''countries''. Casualty figures are likely to be astronomical. Lots of wasted biomass. The other issue is that the Reapers are also spread over quite a wide area. The Mass Effect galaxy is very heavily populated, and most of the Council races are pretty old as powers go, meaning that they have some very old and thus heavily populated colonies. We don't see huge numbers of Reapers at any given time because the number of Reapers they have are spread out over dozens or hundreds of worlds, with others on deep space defence (those ones that harass you for scanning too often have to come from somewhere).
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*** Have to disagree with you there. In the Citadel DLC, you can listen to conversations among the soldiers who you play as in multiplayer, who talk about all the things that happen in multiplayer. Now, like you said, some of the events (ie, Quarians fighting alongside the Geth before the armistice), are unlikely to be canon, nor are they as good when played by a player. Still, the idea of multi-species squads running around during the Reaper war is not non-canon, as you even get a War Asset for soldiers doing that exact thing. As for the Collectors: again, conversations between the multiplayer soldiers mention them several times, and the Armax arena has them as enemies, which wouldn't make sense unless they were still around. "There certainly weren't any other stations or any planets the Collectors were hiding on." Um, how do you know that? We don't see every portion of the galaxy, and the Collectors could've been hiding in a completely unknown location. And even if they had only one base, do you really believe that every single Collector was on board at the exact same time? Paragon Lost shows that they had more than one ship, so it stands to reason that some of them may have escaped the Base's destruction.
