History Headscratchers / Glee

* [[Headscratchers/GleeSeason5 Season 5]].

* [[JustBugsMe/GleeSeasonGeneric General]]
* [[JustBugsMe/GleeCharacters Characters]]
* [[JustBugsMe/GleeSeason1 Season 1]]
* [[JustBugsMe/GleeSeason2 Season 2]]

[[foldercontrol]]
[[folder: Why Glee?]]
!!Why is this show still on TV...
* ...When shows like {{Dollhouse}} are getting canceled? Because ''that'' JustBugsMe.
** How can you use the word "still" when it's only the first season?
*** Yeah, because shows [[SarcasmMode never]] [[{{Firefly}} get]] [[FreaksAndGeeks canceled]] [[{{Undeclared}} in]] [[CloneHigh their]] [[{{Kings}} first]] [[{{Wonderfalls}} season]].
*** Also notice what four of those six shows [[{{Fox}} have in common with Glee]]...
*** That may be true, but what I meant was that it's not as if Glee has been on for very long. "Still" is a bit of an exaggeration.
** And because although Dollhouse is a very good show it just isn't pulling in the ratings and is very expensive to produce. You should be glad Fox gave Dollhouse a second season, given their track record. Glee by comparison is a ratings powerhouse despite going up against long running and extremely popular shows like Mythbusters and is much cheaper to make.
** {{Glee}} Also makes '''much''' more money because the downloaded songs. I think episode 13 even lampshades this when is said that "Don't Stop Believing It" is the most downloaded song in Itunes.
** Also, another reason: It is frigging Awesome.
** [[YourMileageMayVary I beg to differ.]]
** Glee is incredibly popular, especially within the main stream. It's already exceeded expectations, while Dollhouse is still expected to live up to the success of Buffy. Add that to the money it's pulling in with the iTunes downloads and it's not unimpressive popularity, it's not going anywhere.
** It's more than all that- it's that a big part of the ratings are from a guaranteed demographic. [[{{Elecveg}} This troper]] is very involved in a lot of music and theater stuff at her school, and there's almost literally nobody who doesn't watch {{Glee}} in any given group. It's the only musical on television right now- there were other SciFi, Comedy, etc. shows for the mentioned TooGoodToLast shows, meaning they got less word of mouth. Glee is THE musical TV show. Even those who don't LOVE it tend to watch just to see what happens, if it gets better, and mostly to discuss it with those who do enjoy it.
** I go to a REALLY nerdy college. Everyone I know watches Glee, but Dollhouse draws blank stares. Now try that with a normal high school?
** Glee also had at least 10 times the promotion Dollhouse did. This troper watched Fox pretty much every week day and Glee had a promo at least two or three times during the 8-10 time slot each day. Dollhouse? Got one promo right before the show (as in "Stay tuned for a new Dollhouse... starting RIGHT NOW!").
*** Were you perhaps watching after the decision to cancel Dollhouse (one of my favorite shows because Joss Whedon and Eliza Dushku are MadeOfAwesome)had already been made? Fox has a tendency to only promo right before the start of the show if they are "burning off" the remaining episodes.
* I think one difference between Glee and Dollhouse was the episode recap. I watched Dollhouse when it first came on, I enjoyed it. However, at one point I had to miss an episode. I went back to watching the show, but I found after missing one episode I had no idea what was going on. The recap given wasn't very clear as to exactly what happened so I couldn't follow along with the rest of the episode. A lot of TV dramas have that problem and it's something that can really hurt ratings. Glee, on the other hand, has recaps where they actually explain what happened last episode instead of playing some random clips from it. Even if you miss an episode of Glee, you can catch up again right away and you can still follow along with the show.
* In general, Glee has a wider range of appeal than shows like Dollhouse (which you have to admit is more niche than Glee). More than that, Glee has managed that little touch of something - there's something in the show for everyone regardless of tastes (for the most part).
** Agreed, another reason for Glee's success is their demographic. There are almost no currently airing comedies aimed at a teenage audience. The only station that's been making shows for teenagers is MTV, and quite frankly, it doesn't work out for everyone considering all they have is reality shows.
* Also, Dollhouse maybe isnt that great, much like most of Whedons stuff, which is why it doesnt get ratings.
** [[BuffyTheVampireSlayer You]] [[{{Angel}} can't]] [[{{Firefly}} be]] [[DoctorHorriblesSingAlongBlog serious]].
** [[FamilyGuy You]] [[SpongeBobSquarePants know]] [[{{Glee}} what]] [[{{HowIMetYourMother}} else]] [[AmericanIdol 'isnt]] [[DeathNote that]] [[AbsolutelyFabulous great'?]] [[YourMileageMayVary Your]] [[TakeThat grammar.]] You also seem to be forgetting that [[JossWhedon Joss Whedon]] *directed* an episode of [[{{Glee}} Glee]]. Now, granted, I like [[{{Glee}} Glee]] and [[HowIMetYourMother How I Met Your Mother]], but I'm not going to pretend like either is the best TV show ever. Just because you don't like [[JossWhedon Joss Whedon]] doesn't mean his stuff is bad (and anyways, [[DoctorHorriblesSingAlongBlog Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog]] is immensely popular as was [[BuffyTheVampireSlayer Buffy the Vampire Slayer]]). There are people who absolutely love [[EdWood Ed Wood]], so [[YourMileageMayVary Your Mileage May Vary]].
** Believe it or not, there are people who do not like Joss Whedon. He's good, but I personally fail to see how he is the paragon of good television. Besides, insulting someone does not necessarily [[FanDumb help your argument any]].
** Whedon is a good writer/director but he gets way to attached to his actors. Dushku should never have been the lead in Dollhouse, she just doesn't have the range to do all those roles. Not to mention that having "emotionless automaton" as a reasonable description of the main character was suicide from the word go.
** Whedon is an excellent writer, director, and producer, but he's not in any way perfect and neither are any of his shows. Besides, as always YourMileageMayVary comes into play. People are allowed to like what they want, regardless of how you or anyone else feels about it.
* As a non fan trying to see whats so popular, and only having seen about 4 and a half episodes(The pilot, the first 3 episodes of season 2 and half of theatricality) i really gotta say how in the hell is this show still on. As a gay guy who was in choir for 9 years and the last 4 of those, so i know about choir competitions and all that, this show just does not appeal to me in any way. I mean part of me still wants to TRY to give this show a chance and hope things get better but its like someone hits a reset button after every episode and all positive character building (read when characters stop being bitches to each other) is set to zero again. most of what people have already said before bug me too mainly that there doesnt seem to be any likeable characters and theyre all on bitch mode 24/7 (only one that isnt would be the crazy OCD counselor). So this is just me ranting
** Well, 1) watching the stuff in the air order is probably more helpful for seeing the appeal (and the character building) and 2) season 2 hasn't been that great so far as far as I'm concerned (particular for the characterisation leaps backwards). But more generally, sometimes people just don't like particular stuff, if it's not your cup of tea then let it go. It's not as if any TV is every truly popular in a "majority of people" kind of way. What's the last show that picked up 50% of the available TV audience?
* Because people like something you don't. Oh god, how terrible.
** That is not what OP said and you know it.
*** Do I? Because it mostly sounds like someone being upset a show they like got cancelled while a show they don't like wasn't. As in, they think it's weird their taste isn't shared by everyone. Shock horror. 'Why is this show still on, ugh!' is supposed to be taken another way?
** The show is popular for reasons. One is the singing, people, especially teens, love music. This Troper knows one guy who hates the show but is in love with the songs. A bigger reason, though, is the demographic. This is a comedy aimed at teenagers. Tell me, how many teen comedies are airing right now, as in making new episodes? Pretty much none. The only station that's really been making some effort to cater to teens is MTV, and that doesn't work for everyone considering it's almost entirely reality shows about rich white people. Then, the characters are pretty fun. Particularly Sue, she was an extremely well-received character both by viewers and critics.
* People are saying that Glee doesn't deserve to be on TV because that's not how the way people act. And they're not taking the deconstruction of the stereotypes far enough. ''That'' just bugs me. Even with all of its flaws, I'd much rather that a show like Glee is being shown, than if it's not. It at least makes the attempt to deconstruct stereotypes, it and because of its demographic, is getting all of that out to a large number of people. People can build on its wake in social terms and acceptance afterward if they feel ''that'' strongly about Glee's flaws, but at least it's broken ground ''now''.
** What stereotypes has Glee deconstructed?
* No accounting for taste. I personally didn't like Dollhouse, although I like Joss Whedon's other work, and I love Glee.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Sectionals]]
* I don't understand why they needed a new number for sectionals. They've done HOW MANY big numbers? Why couldn't they do Keep Holding On or True Colors or Lean on Me or even Push It or Last Name? Doing Keep Holding On or True Colors or adapting one of the others would have been much easier than thinking of a whole NEW number...
** The real answer, of course, is that it was much more dramatic. If I had to come up with some silly FanWank explanation, I would point out that just about every episode we've seen so far included Will saying some version of, "Guys, we've done great so far, but sectionals is coming up in [insert painfully slow moving figure here.] We need to step it up!" So the kids are probably conditioned to think everything they've done so far is inadequate to the majesty and glory of Sectionals (TM).
** * shrug* They do repeat Somebody to Love because it was "a real crowd pleaser." Maybe they didn't think the other songs they did were audience orientated. Most of the songs they had done were for themselves (usually with big deep end of episode messages about them as people) and the ones they performed for crowds weren't exactly the best for the situation (Push it was aimed at horny school kids, Last name was a 1 person song which they had already done one of in a Show CHOIR competition. Finn and Puck had done some of the Acafellas songs but the rest of the group hadn't and they're more boyband renditions anyway).
** Which is more interesting from a viewer's standpoint? Watching them sing something new, or watching something you saw a month ago? They draw viewers in with new musical numbers, not having them practice singing the same songs over and over again. I wonder how the writers are going to get around this for later episodes.
** Also, some of the big numbers seem to have taken place entirely inside a character's head, or used to represent the general feeling of the glee club without using the usual dialogue and character actions.
* Also, does it annoy anyone else that we only saw them perform two numbers (Don't Rain on My Parade and You Can't Always Get What You Want)? Aren't they supposed to do THREE?
** Quinn mentioned that they were going to finish with Somebody to Love. Considering that we'd already seen them perform it earlier in the series, it kept the pattern of not hearing the same song twice.
* This one bugs me like crazy: they specificially had to replace "And I Am Telling You..." in the "ballad" category. On what planet is "Don't Rain On My Parade" a ballad?
* Shouldn`t the glee club still be worried about the absence of Puck? Adding Sam only brings the number up to eleven.
** [[spoiler:Puck's absence is only temporary.]]
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Female solo trouble]]
* Why does Will make attempts to spread out the female solos and everyone complains about Rachel hogging them all, but no one bats an eyelash as every single male solo goes to the [[InformedAttribute oh-so-talented]] Finn?
** I knowwwww, right? I'm still ticked about Rachel dismissing Artie's talent, when not only is he a much better singer than Finn, but looks a hell of a lot more dignified wheelchair dancing than Finn does spazzing out two beats behind everyone else. And now that they've got Puck and the other jocks, there's really no excuse. And I LOVE Finn, I just don't like putting the other characters down to make him look better.
*** Lately though Artie, Mercedes, and Tina have all gotten greater focus in the club's chorale numbers with Finn and Rachel largely being reduced to singing songs on their own during rehearsals or outside of club entirely. Maybe Will actually learned something in "Throwdown."
* In "The Rhodes Not Taken", Finn objects to Mr. Schuester giving April the lead for "Don't Stop Believing", claiming it was Rachel's. When in actuality, it's been Quinn's since the second episode.
** Anyone else notice in that episode that during "Last Name", NOBODY BUT APRIL IS SINGING AT ALL?!
*** You forget that Will is completely enamored with April.
*** As is pretty much everyone who watches Glee, probably.
**** No, not really.
** Um, wasn't that the point?
** Yes, they are singing. If you listen to the recording of "Last Name" you can hear everyone singing backing vocals on the chorus. The point of the song IS that April is dominating it, and that no one is really doing much except her, but they ARE singing.
*** But isn't that just the case with almost EVERY song involving Rachel as a soloist anyway?
* Why does Will keep giving solos to only a few people? In fact, why does he choose songs that have one huge solo that's almost the whole song? It seems that every other episode so far has it where there's solo trouble.
** Again since "Throwdown" this seems to have changed, although the songs are still essentially long solos or duets with backing vocals he seems to spread those solos out a little more than he used to.
* So, wait--Glee is the bottom of the food chain, yet the jazz band and pianist have nothing better to do than to play at all of their rehearsals?
** Who the hell is the pianist anyway? Is he even a teacher or a staff member? Is he just a friend Will brought in on a favor?
*** This was lampshaded by Rachel in 'Theatricality' apparently, his name is Brad, and 'he sort of just hangs around'.
** Admittedly it was never stated that they were the ''only'' group at the bottom of the food chain.
** The addition of the school's most popular athletic crowd joining probably shot the group pretty far up the social ladder.
*** Not so much - in "Mash-Up," even the popular kids, like Quinn, Finn and Puck, were getting slushies to the face just for being in Glee Club. It's implied that Finn and Quinn lost some popularity when the rest of the school found out Quinn was pregnant, but that doesn't explain Puck getting slushied.
*** Puck got slushied because he had just quit the football team in favour of Glee and was walking down the hall with Rachel Berry wrapped around his arm. That's not dropping down the social ladder, that's gracefully pirouetting off the ladder.
**** Puck only ''symbolically'' quit the football team; after Finn talked to the coach, he didn't actually kick anyone off the team. So, really, it was just because of his association with Rachel that he got slushied. Thanks, Rachel.
** Also Artie is in the Jazz Band, so of course they would help him out. Band Brotherhood runs deep.
*** He does have pull there.
* How the hell did Rachel manage to convince everyone SHE was the best singer in glee club? Every other member outshines her in one way or another, it's true that she's a very talented singer with a pretty voice but she can't hold a candle to the set of pipes on Mercedes. Kurt is a better dancer, Artie is a better musician in general, and even Tina can hold her own against her (seriously, listen to the girl in "Proud Mary.").
** First of all, dancing and "musicianship" don't determine how good of a singer you are. Second, I like Mercedes too but Rachel is ''clearly'' the better singer. Mercedes may have that typical oversinging belting black diva voice but that's it really. Rachel on the other hand is much more polished and varied in technique, has a better vocal tone, and can both belt and sing gently ''unlike'' Mercedes. Rachel is the best singer in the Glee Club and this is acknowledged both in and out of the show (by anyone who has ''working'' ears).
*** Exactly - Rachel has a lot more range. She can switch from stage tunes to pop to rock without missing a beat. Mercedes mostly sings R&B songs, and the songs she sings that aren't R&B are re-arranged to fit within the style. Mercedes also does the really obnoxious, typical-pop-diva thing of packing as many melismas into a song as she can, even when there were none in the original version (see: "Gold Digger"). Anyone who knows anything about singing can tell you how trite and tired that technique is.
**** Pretentious, much? I agree that Rachel is overall a better singer, but Mercedes' "really obnoxious, typical-pop-diva thing" gives her voice character and lets her stand out in the crowd, and she's easily the second-best female singer in the group. Granted, she does lampshade how her only job most of the time is to belt out towards the end of the song, so there ''is'' some self-awareness.
*** Actually Kevin [=McHale=] is widely regarded as the best singer in the cast, and even in the context of the show Rachel is shown to be not as good as she thinks. Consider the audition in "Wheels" where it was heavily implied that Kurt would have won if he hadn't intentionally thrown his solo.
*** Troper Above better have proof that Kevin [=McHale=] is widely regarded as the best singer in the cast. Best male singer in the cast, probably but definitely not best overall. And Kurt would have won because he had more ''passion'' for the song. Compare the solo versions on iTunes, Lea Michele's is more typical Broadway in that she has the better technique but Chris Colfer's is considered as better because of the ''emotion'' he puts-just notice the comments. By the way, ThisTroper thinks Kurt should have won too, even with that intentional bum note.
*** Re Kurt having more passion for the song, I believe the whole reason for that is that Chris Colfer was denied a chance to sing "Defying Gravity" in school, because it was a "girl's song." Art imitating life or an intentional act by the ep's writers, it obviously meant as much to Chris as it did to Kurt.
**** The reason Kurt didn't get the part wasn't because his audition had one bad note, it was because the note he missed was incredibly high in his range. By bombing it, he is telling Will that he is incapable of singing that note.
*** As well, considering how many solos Rachel gets, she has had ''so'' much more chance to prove herself. She sings at least one song with a verse or more to herself, and often an entire song to herself, an episode; Defying Gravity is the first song Kurt got a single solo on other than his audition.
** But she can still hardly call herself "The Best" when it's clear that there are at least four other students that can stand up to her musically. Never mind the fact that a glee club is essentially a team and in order to win you need to gel as a whole and work together. Using a soloist or any other person to be the focus and "carry" an arrangement is seen as lack of confidence and inability to blend voices and harmonies due to a bad ear or lack of practice and will get you killed in competition. That's something she SHOULD know but still tries to throw her weight around to get what she wants. And please do not take this as a slight against Lea Michele, who is wonderfully talented young lady and a delightful person in general, but then the entire cast is talented. People seem to forget that Glee has an ensemble cast that was specifically formed to work and sound well together so it would hardly seem logical or fair to single out one performer as "The best." The point is there is no reason why the other members of the original six(in the pilot) should ever have put up with her "Do what I say because I'm the best" crap in the first place because doing so NEVER did them any good. Mercedes may have been a competing diva, but at least she had the guts to call Rachel out, even if no one supported her.
*** In sectionals, Mercedes was set to go as the soloist on the ballad, don't forget, but when the leaked set list came into play, the whole group... including Mercedes and Kurt... agreed Rachel was the go to girl to pull off something cold. The point is not that Rachel is the best ''singer'', it is that she is the best ''performer''. The musical numbers make this obvious.
*** On Mercedes: Am I the only one annoyed that she never seems to get anything but stereotypically "black" songs, or at least that she always sings that way. I'd love to hear her do a different style at least occasionally.
* [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4Xd435coD4 Wait until Charice becomes part of the cast.]] It's gonna get worse.
* Emma is supposed to be really sweet, but the way she treats Ken really bothers me. And Will's open flirtation with her makes him seem a lot less like the nice guy, too.
** The problem is that he borders too much "Stalker with a crush", what bothers me is how both of them are single and apparently "optionless" about love.
* Why hasn't the fake pregnancy plot been mentioned here yet? Pretty much my biggest problem with the show at the moment.
** You're not alone at all. Although there's several things I like (probably far too much) about this show, the fake pregnancy plot line bugs me to hell and back and I really can't wait for it to be over.
** Also Terri's missed something: She's going to need to be at most 12 months pregnant to get away with having a baby that isn't premature. Quite a BAD oversight!
*** It's physically impossible to be 12 months pregnant.
*** To be fair, its a little unclear how far apart Terri and Quinn's due dates are. There are four episodes in between them finding out. Given that Terri and Will were actively trying to conceive, she would have been aware of her cycle and noticed as soon as her period was late, and thus found out very early (at four or five weeks). Quinn on the other hand is a teenager who has only had sex once, and could have made it to six or eight weeks without realizing something was wrong. Terri can get away with being 'pregnant' for up to 42 weeks, and possibly more now that she has her gyno under the thumb. The real question is how the hell Terri intends to handle the handover, given that Will will expect to be present at the birth, and ''knows about Quinn's baby.''
** Quinn was stated to be around 5-6 weeks pregnant in episode 4. Terri had started wearing the 4-month belly same episode, so I'm assuming 16-17 weeks. Fairly big gap to work around if you ask me.
*** To be fair episode 11 finally told us Terri and Kendra's plan for the switch (even though it is an INCREDIBLY dumb plan if you ask me). My biggest thing is HOW Terri and Quinn lied to their men. Terri, rather then just fake a miscarriage or tell the truth decides to lie rather then say something like "It's to bad, why don't we keep trying though? Let's go have sex!". Or how Quinn makes up a ridiculous story about the hot tub rather then just having sex with Finn, waiting a week or two then telling him she's pregnant so there's no possibility of him figuring out the lie or slipping to someone that they haven't done it. Also this would solve her Puck problem since Puck wouldn't be able to figure it out immediately if he knew that Finn and Quinn had had sex too.
**** Terri faked it because she knew it was the only thing holding their marriage together, and the only reason Quinn had sex with Puck in the first place is because he got her drunk.
**** I think it's safe to conclude that the pregnancy plot has enough problems to qualify as an IdiotPlot. This is pretty unsurprising considering Terri and Kendra ''are'' idiots, but Quinn doesn't have that excuse.
** And now it HAS been addressed. It wasn't pretty.
* "Terri, you're having my baby. I don't have the right to expect anything more from you." That line. Oh, Will.
** What bugs me more than anything else is that after blackmailing the doctor, she uses him to keep the lie, rather than making forge a abortion or a abortion certificate of some sort.
*** Um...by abortion, do you mean ''miscarriage''? Because I imagine telling Will she aborted the baby he was so excited about would make him even angrier than telling him the truth.
**** Sorry, I did meant ''miscarriage'', I am Brazilian and we only have a single word for the two things (well ''miscarriage'' could be turned in ''lost the baby'')
*** Going with the above, I'm pretty sure Will would ''totally'' stick by Terri's side were she to say she miscarried. In fact, if she just said ''that'', she could then openly offer to adopt Quinn's baby, solving all the pregnancy drama.
*** Everybody seems to be forgetting Terri was batshit insane when it came to the baby and not exactly the brightest bulb anyway
*** And that Terri did want to tell Will the truth, but her sister convinced her that Will would leave her in a second if she wasn't pregnant anymore.
*** It really seems to me that no matter how supportive Will would be, he'd also ask Finn if they used protection/chastise Finn for not using protection. And then, Finn would mention the hot tub, and Will would awkwardly ask him what exactly he and Quinn did. And the whole Finn's the babydaddy would be over become it ever really began because Will, whether he wanted to have that conversation or not, wouldn't let Finn go on believing he'd gotten a girl pregnant when he hadn't.
* On the subject of pregnancy in the show, someone, anyone, involved with this show needs to invest in a copy of What to Expect When You Are Expecting, Discrepancies include:
** Quinn finding out that she's having a girl at her ten week ultrasound. The earliest possible time to find out the baby's sex is maybe fifteen weeks and even then it's in no way foolproof.
** Teri supposedly did this too but that didn't bother me because she was lying and clearly neither she and Will knew very much about the subject.
** Quinn goes into labor, manages gets to the hospital and gives birth in the space of a song. Seriously, Rachel tells Shelby that the baby is a healthy baby girl as Vocal Adrenaline is finishing their number.
*** There was also enough time for the entire cast to get back to the competition for the award ceremony, including Mercedes who was present at the birth.
** Quinn gives birth to an apparent four month old even though she was only around 36 weeks pregnant. At the rate this kid is growing Beth will be competing with Rachel for solos by next season.
*** This is a matter of logistics. If you want to show a baby on TV, it's -highly- unlikely that you'll be able to get a fresh out of the womb baby. This happens with any baby on TV.
** Yes, private adoptions are easier than other types, but I have a lot of trouble that all the paperwork- minus the name on the birth certificate- was drawn up and filed in less than twenty-four hours.
** Also within twenty-four hours Quinn is discharged from the hospital and is not only walking but dancing with out a hint of pain or discomfort.
*** What dancing was Quinn doing? The 2 numbers after the birth were "To Sir With Love" (the whole group was sitting) and "Over The Rainbow" (performed by Puck and Will in front of the whole ''sitting'' group). No dancing at the end of the ep. For that matter, we did not even see her walk.
*** As far as being discharged, nowadays, it's because they're outpatients unless there's a need for the mother or child to stay in the hospital.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Ok, let's be honest. Does this show have any likable characters? ]]
** Artie?
*** I second Artie, also, what do you have against Kurt?
**** While I'm a huge Kurt fan (and Artie fan, for that matter), he's no saint. Mainly, there was the makeover he gave Rachel which he said would make Finn like her more but actually pushed him further away. Also, what I don't understand is why he seems to hate Rachel for her self-centered-diva attitude, but supports the same tendencies in Mercedes...
***** Because Rachel is competition for Finn's attention, Mercedes isn't.
****** It's more than that. Rachel is essentially the female Kurt. Ok, not exactly, but they are the most similar characters on the show. She has the luxury of not only being someone Finn can be attracted to(and is, since he's dating her), but bering able to express herself without being beat up. It is so much more likely that Rachel will achieve her dreams than Kurt. Since their dreams are identical, you can see why he's so jealous of her. In Kurt's view, it's just so much easier for her. And it's gotta hurt to know that Finn likes her because this means that if Finn was gay, or Kurt was a girl, he would probably have a pretty good shot with him.
******* A lot of people now apparently think Artie is the biggest misogynist asshole of them all, after the events involving Tina and Brittany. This troper honestly doesn't see it as that bad, but some people get pretty venomous about it.
** This Troper actually likes most of the characters - they've all got their flaws and moments of stupidity, but they've all got their good times too. Except for Terri.
*** Why you be hatin' on Terri?
*** She's neurotic, insane, desperate, and a bad person for lying to her husband about her pregnancy. She even tries to confront Emma after Will leaves Terri, which makes her seem even crazier. Terri has serious problems and few, if any, redeeming qualities. Why shouldn't we be hatin' on Terri again?
**** And Will having an emotional affair with another woman is okay?
**** Did you miss the long diatribe about Terri just above your post? The fact that he only ''just'' started looking elsewhere almost qualifies him as a saint.
** Sort of the motif behind the Grey and Grey Morality of the show, is it not?
** Their flaws ''are'' what make them endearing.
** And that's arguably intentional.
** Compared to the ''lovely'' people in Ryan Murphy's [[NipTuck most famous other work]], even [[TheScrappy Terri]] qualifies for beatification.
** Brittany is fairly endearing; perhaps someone you might not want to spend a lot of time around but certainly the most innocent and sweet of the group.
*** "Innocent"? Hasn't it been established that she's slept with like 85% of the student body, male and female? It seems to me that she's the 3rd biggest nympho in [=McKinley=] High (Puck and Santana being numbers 1 and 2 respectively). That said, she is sweet, and endearing, if dim as a 2 watt bulb. She is hot, though.
**** What does virginity have to do with non-metaphorical innocence?
*** Besides, she's easily the biggest nympho. Brittany doesn't seem to care about gender (or species, IIRC she once mentioned making out with her cat?) while Puck is 100% straight (so far as we know, anyway) and Santana is straight for everyone but Brittany.
** How about Ken? This NiceGuy gets stepped on big time. True, he did one vindictive act (making his players choose), but other than that his only sins are being a simple guy who's a nil in the looks department.
*** YMMV here, too. In the first episode, he wipes spit all over an ''extreme'' germophobic's door handle because she politely turned him down when he asked her on a date and told him there was someone else. This was after he'd refused to take the hint when she'd always made up excuses not to go on a date with him before, mind. You'd think he would've stopped after that, but he asks her out again the next episode, and his "Why You Should Date Me," speech includes veiled insults at her OCD ("I'll put up with your crazy,") while also implying that other people wouldn't be willing to date her because of her OCD ("...You're not going to do much better.") Attacking someone's already low self-esteem so they will agree to a date is not a NiceGuy thing to do. He later tries to sabotage Glee Club because he's jealous of Will, suggests to Terri that they have an affair, and basically proposes to Emma not because he loves her, but as a method of manipulating her into staying with him, since he knows she actually loves Will and not him. Not trying to let Emma off the hook here - she never should have agreed to go out with Ken if she wasn't into him, and she should have ended things instead of staying with him, and she certainly shouldn't have agreed to marry him. But Ken also helped manipulate into all these things despite knowing about her lack of feelings for him, so as far as him getting stepped on is concerned, he just made his bed and then had to lie in it.
** Hello? Tina! Sure, she doesn't get much air time, but she's FANTASTIC.
*** YMMV. While not as divisive as some of the more major players, some fans find Tina extremely grating for one reason or another.
**** Especially after [[spoiler: dumping Artie for Mike, I know Artie's not perfect (taking part in Halo marathons rather than hanging out with his girlfriend, calling her "woman"), but her reasoning is incredibly shallow ("Why can we talk about things ''I'' like? Like his abs!")]]
[[/folder]]
[[folder:How does Kurt pay for all those designer with his dad being a MECHANIC?]]
** Maybe he copies the designs and makes them himself.
** Mechanics aren't exactly poor, and his father seems to own his own shop. Kurt seems to wear the same jacket all the time, so it may just be a combination of careful saving, shopping the sales, and wearing Target t-shirts and jeans with designer jackets and accessories.
*** Between the size of his dad's shop, (seriously, in episode 9 it's ''huge''), Kurt having a large and nice room, and his rather expensive-looking car it's pretty safe to assume Mr. Hummel isn't exactly hurting for money.
** [[EpilepticTrees Maybe Kurt's mom was loaded and Hummel Senior didn't want to just become one of the idle rich when she died and left him with everything because it wouldn't be what she wanted.]]
*** Given what we've seen of Kurt's dad makes some sense.
**** It doesn't have to be that even; just because he 'looks' like some regular mechanic doesn't mean he is. Take a look at some real life famous 'mechanics' like Jesse James and the Teutels.
**** Two things: 1) A skilled mechanic w/ a successful shop in or near a major city can make well over $100k per year. You can buy a lot of clothes w/ that. and 2) Men's clothes really aren't that expensive (as compared to women's) so a few thousand dollars could literally buy all the clothes most men would ever need (writes the man w/ 120+ shirts)
** I am more interested to know how the glee club could pay for those costumes.
*** Remember in episode two Principal Figgins says the Glee Club gets a part of the Cheerio's dry cleaning budget for costumes.
* In ep. 18, Pa Hummel mentions that they own a majority interest in a tire shop. A majority stake in a successful business is going to give you some cash to play with on top of any other things Hummel might be doing.[[/folder]]
[[folder:Brittany in Episode Four]]
* She was the one that come up with the story that Kurt was a football player. Was she trying to destroy the Glee club? Or did she actually want to help? She has being portrayed as too stupid for either story to fit the character. Plus, she looked happy with dancing...
** Brittany is that special mix of dumb and sweet. She's smart enough to come up with a mildly believable lie, but too stupid to be genuinely mean.
** Tina was the one who blurted out "football", Brittany just ran with it.
** Heather Morris has said in various interviews that it wasn't until the fifth or sixth episode that Brittany really started being "a dumb blonde." Originally HeMo was brought in solely because she was such an awesome dancer and then they decided to flesh her character out a little. So, in that scene, she's not dumb because... she's not dumb yet.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Mercedes' reaction to finding out that Puck is the father of Quinn's baby, just that.]]

** Maybe she thinks that Finn already knows and is staying with Quinn anyway? I hope. Otherwise...yeah. Even Quinn knows what she's doing is wrong, I have trouble believing someone on the outside would think it's okay.
** Mercedes sees Puck as a JerkAss-she has no reason to believe he's really a JerkWithAHeartOfGold. Thus, she only sees a selfish, good-for-nothing guy who got a girl to cheat on her boyfriend and is much less qualified to be a father than Finn. Also, remember that Puck tried to steal money from Artie's short bus fund to support Quinn, while Finn did everything he could to get a job, including faking disability. Mercedes might have been right:
-->'''Mercedes:''' You're the baby's ''daddy.'' It takes a hell of a lot more to be a ''father,'' and that role's already been cast.
*** It is reasonable to say that Finn looks like a better father-figure than Puck, but you are forgetting that taking care of a child would change Finn life forever, whatever dream or plan would need to put aside, while Puck would go scot free, ant that doesn't even touch the ramifications of Quinn cheating.
** One problem with that. If she did believe fully that Puck was in fact a JerkAss, then wouldn't it be more reasonable to not believe him at all? And with the whole 'father was cast' nonsense, she didn't even know the whole story, didn't even listen to Puck's side, and she just ripped him off. FamilyUnfriendlyAesop indeed.
*** Why else would Puck confess such a shameful thing?
* OMG, yes, the whole thing just pissed me off. Not only is she brazenly dismissing Puck, and blaming him, she's saying that it's right that Finn be made a father falsely, and says that for Quinn, Puck "owes her at least that much" not to get involved...so Finn gets sympathy, Puck is rebuked for "messing up Quinn's life", when there is little objectively separating the two circumstances? It takes two people to cheat. Besides, it's kind of a FamilyUnfriendlyAesop to tell him to not help with his unborn child, even worse to tell him to let his best friend be connived into doing his job for him. The whole thing was complete nonsense.
* But hadn't Quinn decided that she was giving the baby she was carrying up for adoption anyway? I guess that weighed in on Mercedes' (and the rest of the club, once they found out) decision to not let Finn know that Puck was the father of the baby. Quinn doesn't want to raise the baby she's carrying now with neither Finn nor Puck - she wants to be with Finn forever (at least as of the beginning of episode 13).
* This was beyond frustrating, but I didn't think it was too far out of character for Mercedes. Mercedes is generally a very compassionate person, so she no doubt thought no further beyond the idea that biological paternity wasn't important, and doesn't want to see Finn get hurt. She was caught in the spur of the moment, and would probably have revised her opinion later.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Stuttering]]
Stuttering: a real disability (when it's not fake). Shyness severe enough that the shybie alters her speech patters for several years: no disability there. (And I doubt it's because [[DidNotDoTheResearch shyness doesn't work that way]].)
** I don't understand what you're getting at. Are you just saying that Tina doesn't really have a disability? In that case, yes, that was the point of her scene with Artie at the end of "Wheels". Nobody who knows she's faking the stutter has claimed that it still counts as a disability.
*** The above-above troper is saying that Tina ''does'' have a problem: Shyness, in a level that she would drive people away for years, rather than deal with them.
**** Ah, now I get it. Well, yes, Tina clearly has some pretty serious issues. But extreme shyness is a psychological problem, not a physical disability. You could argue that the distinction isn't that important, but Artie obviously feels differently.
** Was I the only one annoyed at Artie for getting so mad at Tina? I mean, she admitted to being so [[ShrinkingViolet painfully shy]] that she faked a stutter so she wouldn't have to talk to people. To me, that is certainly a disability. I get that Tina was dishonest, but I still think Artie overreacted. Plus, he implies that he was only interested in her because they both had disabilities. He seemed pretty shallow to me when he dropped all his affection for her purely because she didn't have a stutter.
*** I have ''loathed'' Artie ever since this episode for that (although all the hints that he's a sexist pig since have helped sustain that loathing). Well, for that on top of the whole episode. He somehow twisted every conversation they had that episode around to her stutter even though it was obvious that she wasn't cool with that, and I was all set for the episode to end with him somehow learning a lesson about treating her that way when he'd hate it if somebody acted the same way about his disability, and then ''that's'' the ending we get instead?
**** Ditto, re: Artie bringing it up all the time. I can sympathize with his anger (a lot) but the way he treated Tina when he thought she had a condition was NOT cool.
** He was upset because faking a disability to receive special treatment is incredibly offensive to actual disabled people. He thought that she understood what it was like for him and she didn't. She may empathize, but not really understand.
*** Yeah, because she only pretended to stutter in order to ''reap'' the social benefits and be cool. She stuttered specifically ''not'' to get special treatment.
**** That's ''exactly'' what's offensive about it, though. Granted, Tina had to overcome her shyness, but unlike Artie she had the ability to stop the discrimination that comes with having a disability. Artie (and people like ThisTroper) don't have that privilege. Now, I think Artie can be a huge jerk to Tina and don't even get me started on season two, but he had every right to be upset with her in "Wheels".
** For the record, there's something called Social Anxiety Disorder though it's hardly anything like what Tina might have. More than just shyness, this would certainly be a mental disability though this one thinks that it's little much for Glee.[[/folder]]

[[folder:Someone complaining about song in a musical show]]
* When a song starts up, the changed acoustics make it obvious that it was performed, recorded and mixed in a studio.
** Three words: RuleOfCool
** Three more words: It's a Musical.
** Three more words: Just Bugs Me. (Really, it's more about the bad mixing, and how all ambient sound fades out. That and the painfully obvious autotuning.)
** It really is a product of almost every musical. Most of the songs that happen indoors (and almost ALL the songs in Glee take place exclusively indoors) have no ambient sound whatsoever. Simply the music maybe the sound of tap dancing if it's employed. The characters rarely interact with their environment while singing and if they do it's something that wouldn't have much of a sound anyway (such as Will climbing on the piano bench) If there was a lot of ambient sound lurking in the background people would just complain about ''that''.
** Every now and then they just skip it, like the club's impromptu rendition of "Ride With Me" in "Throwdown." It was still pretty awesome.
*** Well, to me that song was more Heartwarming, I think is the first time we see the glee kids actually having ''fun'' together, or at least, is the first time it is made clear. But I wouldn't listen it without the video. =P
* Why are the mashups so damn short? They're usually some of the most awesome songs in the show and an extended cut on the album or for download would be very welcome.
** Licensing issues?
* In Episode 10 the writers didn't address what happened with Tina and Artie. They are EVIL!
** That's because Episode 9 was ADayInTheLimeLight and afterwards they had to get back to the main plot of the season.
*** And now Artie and Tina are officially together, happy now?
*** And as of the beginning of season 2, Tina broke up with Artie and got together with [[strike: Other Asian]] Mike instead.
* What happened to the other member of Glee Club shown in the pilot singing with Sandy? Sandy got fired but there was no mention of what happened to him. Will said he was willing "to captain the Titanic Two" but it sort of turned into the Titanic One plus 11. If Mr. Schuester was looking so hard for 12 members at the start of the series you would think he'd include one of the ''original members''.
** That wasn't a member of the Glee Club, I think it was said that he a lead in a school play, and Rachel actually got Sandy fired because she didn't got the main part. The general impression that I had, it was there ''wasn't'' a Glee Club before, at least for sometime.
** Will said he wanted to coach glee. Figgins asked sarcastically, "Do you want to captain the Titanic, ''too''?" Also, the kid was probably too ashamed of being involved with Sandy (even though he didn't reciprocate) to audition for glee.
** Actually, Figgins did say Two the number, but he wasn't talking about the members. By now the Glee Club is expected to sink hard every year.
** Actually, Figgins said 'too' as in 'also'. He was making reference to the fact that it was an impossible task as they will fail, and Will was being a glutton for punishment. If he's willing to put his neck on the line for the kids, why doesn't he also captain the Titanc. Using the numeral '2' there doesn't make a jot of sense.
** Erm, remember: In order for Will to have a club to steal from Sandy, Sandy must have that club in the first place. And the context makes it clear that some sort of show choir existed under Sandy Ryerson... it is, after all, him being fired that leaves Will available to create New Directions from whatever ashes were left. Will never started Glee before, because someone else was already doing it. How well is up to you, but its reasonable to assume that Rachel at least was in it... other than that, you can ask yourself WhatHappenedToTheMouse, but maybe its better not to wonder what happens to him... can you really see any path that doesn't involve therapy?
*** In the directors cut of the pilot it showed that the Glee Club under Sandy was "Stool Choir" where they all just sat around on stools. Tina, Mercedes, Kurt and Rachel were in it, but Artie wasn't, or at least not shown. I'm not sure about the "Where is Love" kid.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Rachel: YourMileageMayVary. Oh so much.]]
* Rachel's gotten the most CharacterDevelopment out of everyone and is not the same bitchy, self-centered diva of the pilot. Yet she is still getting the most flak out of everyone, both in the show and out. I blame FanDumb for what's nonfictional but did Kurt really need to humiliate her in "Wheels" like that with his "Now we all know I'm more popular" line (and why didn't Mr. Schu stop him?)? Or earlier on when ''all the kids'' were being inconsiderate towards Artie yet only ''Rachel'' gets Artie's ire. And this is turned into a CrowningMomentOfAwesome by members of this very site. Am I the only one who feels for her when she mentions later on that she literally has no friends?
** Bluelantern2814: Well, in Artie defense, the entire club acted like jerks, Rachel was the unlucky one (or the stupid one) to speak at the moment. Also, earlier she said that "her family is fully committed to take out" while it is showed in episode 3 and 10 that she does know to cook. Another thing is... I guess it is hard to be sorry about it since her ''problem'' is being too much of a Diva, while the other members have more valid issues (specially Artie).
** Rachel's problem at the moment is that "no one likes her" (except Finn but he's a LoveInterest; she's past the diva stage. I feel for the other club members (Quinn's pregnancy, etc.) but I don't think Rachel's loneliness is any less valid of an issue. As the OddManOut she is universally hated and isolated from the group. How is that no less valid of an issue, especially since this can lead to major depression IRL (not that I think it's gonna happen on the show)? And Rachel being the Unlucky One singled out just shows how much she's hated by ''everyone'' in the club and it's deemed a fucking CrowningMomentOfAwesome? Really?
** Rachel IS still a spoiled diva, if a mildly sympathetic one. Consider her actions in "Wheels," first there is her resentment at being forced to sit in a wheelchair for three hours a way (granted most of the cast has this reaction, but hers is the most extreme), and again when Mr. Shue is confronted with the bias of his casting and thusly hold a fair and open audition for the solo in "Defying Gravity" She accuses him of ruining her life. You feel bad for her because she has no friends, but she has no friends because her massive ego pushes people away. She's learning to control it, but that doesn't make her any less grating or insensitive.
** My problem is that so many of her fans in real life are Special Snowflake fangirls turning her into a PossessionSue. Nobody on the show can even make a snarky comment to her without the internet filling up with "Waaa she's so abused! Just. Like. Me!!!" or "They can't give Kurt the Defying Gravity song! It doesn't matter that it fits his character better, Lea looks like Idina Menzel!!!" Also, fangirls making arguments that Rachel being disliked for being irritating and socially clueless is the same as Elphaba being discriminated against for her skin color. Or saying that Kurt asking to compete for the solo is just as rude, if not worse, than Rachel demanding the Tonight solo from Tina and storming out when she doesn't get her way. It's really no wonder that everyone hates them-I mean Rachel.
** A lot of socially-awkward overachievers will find Rachel identifiable; I'll admit that in high school, I was basically a more introverted and lazier Rachel, though my outlet was instrumental music rather than singing. I defend her a lot, though it's less because I think Rachel is perfect (I don't, and she isn't even my favorite character) but more because the obnoxiousness and seeming-arrogance that turn her into TheScrappy for so many people are, for ThisTroper, what make her such a compelling and a realistic character. Most of the people I knew in high school who were the star of this or that club/activity were Rachel's, not Tina's. As for the obnoxious fangirls thing, you could say the same about Kurt fans (he's gay and picked-on for it, so it's ''perfectly!! okay!!'' the way he manipulates Rachel and Finn to achieve his romantic ends).
** Well said, Rachel needs character development that survives StatusQuoIsGod, every episode she hits her Diva reset button and ends up with a plot that doesn't make her much better. Honestly, I do want her to have friends, but I also want her to earn them. =|
*** Just to add to my point: The writers also need to put her in situations that don't revolve around her search for fame or Finn, dunno, something like, hanging out with the other Glee Kids, just to show her as a more 3-Dimensional being.
*** But Rachel ''doesn't'' have anyone else to hang out and herein lies the whole problem. And I argue that while she's still overdramatic with "ruining my life" comment, her character development ''does'' survive StatusQuoIsGod. She's still willing to go through with the wheelchair routine despite Artie insulting her (in earlier episodes she probably would have just quit the Glee Club because "being in a wheelchair wouldn't benefit her future career"), she brings back [[SympathyForTheDevil Quinn]], and she helps Finn get a job even though it would benefit her more to ''stop'' Finn from finding a job (and subsequently Quinn would follow through on her threat and break up with him). I don't think Pilot Rachel would handle the situations the same way. Rachel started off as a pretty deplorable character who would probably sell ''Finn'' into slavery if it was to further her career but she's come a long way from that person, in my opinion. And ItJustBugsMe that this doesn't seem to be acknolwedged at all. Whew.
*** Okay, she does get CharacterDevelopment, but still, does the Glee Kids know about it? She has no interests outside Glee Club (including Finn), I am surprised that she has so many outfits because I can't honestly picture she "wasting time" shopping. She might had grow as a person, but she still has to reach out to show this to her "friends".
*** My memory might be faulty but after the Glee Kids visited Vocal Adrenaline, wasn't ''Rachel'' the one to warn Mercedes about Kurt (gayintervention?) before Mercedes blew her off. Also it's hard to approach people who you know hate you and say "Hey guys, I know I was a bitch before but I changed so let's hang out together :)" which is why she purposely stands to the side and buries herself in Glee Club work because she thinks that's the only way she can be worth something to the rest of the club-as a fellow singer but not a friend. And as with the no interests thing, I think the bowling scene with Finn shows that yes Rachel does need to get a life outside of singing/dancing but she can loosen up and just hang out if someone reached out to her. I'm not saying Rachel is now a perfect angel, her CharacterDevelopment is far from complete, but cut the girl some slack!
**** I cut her some slack and still give the CMoA to Artie.
**** Agreed. The CMoA was more about Artie standing up for himself than knocking Rachel down a peg.
***** Just adding something to this; this may be totally off, but the reason I don't hate Rachel (actually I quite like her as a character) is because obviously being bought up to be (also with aspirations to be) "a star" has warped her into being incredibly competitive, diva-like and determined when it comes to things like musical theater. The fact that she had been constantly bullied throughout high school (dare I say before high school- she never mentions having any friends before that), had Slushies dumped on her by Puck, had Quinn sending her abusive messages (this was shown in the pilot). Now, in my own experience of bullying (and knowing people that have been bullied in this way for years, especially people involved in singing/drama) I've found that people will end up becoming attached to their hobby that they are bullied for, in lieu of trying to form friendships as its been made clear that people can't understand their hobbies, and if you were say, bought up doing dance classes and things, you'd want to hold onto something that is a major part of your life. The treatment by the rest of the Glee club bugs me, yes- she can be incredibly selfish and will do anything to get the solos she feels she deserves, I'm not saying these are GOOD things, but the fact that after slowly beginning to learn from her mistakes, she still gets flak from the rest of the club is cruel. Kurt's "makeover" and her subsequent humiliation in front of Finn while being made to believe (by Kurt) that dressing like that and seducing him would get him to like her (which speaks for a whole load of her other issues- ones addressed bizarrely enough by Suzie Pepper- the scene in the bathroom for example which actually EXPLAINED why Rachel was like that around boys, something which people who adamantly hate her don't take into consideration- come on, the girl obviously has a lot of issues based around her image and the way she acts with people) was quite horrible to watch, and something that made me rethink my stance on Kurt's character. Yes, the two of them are going through the same issues, instead of bonding through it he made her humiliate herself, then told her the object of her affection would never like her anyway- something which she ended up accepting, whereas when she told Mercedes about the fact that her and Kurt wouldn't go anywhere she was treated like a bitch. I can understand her character getting flak from the fandom because... no character ever escapes that, people have alternate character interpretations and this is mine, but I don't understand why the writers have made her be the character that, except for Finn, appears to be hated by everyone in the glee universe?
****** Her diva-like behavior though is implied to be something that was in place long before she ever got to high school. She was more than likely singled out '''because''' she acted like a bit of a spoiled brat. When she dated Puck she did the talking constantly, and about things he wasn't particularly interested in. There were a few brief moments between them, but when the broke up and she asked to be friends Puck said it all "We weren't friends to begin with." This isn't because either of them were bad people, they were simply '''very''' different and had nothing in common (other than their faith) and very few shared interests (at least he listened to her go on about music and shows, can you really see Rachel giving a damn about football if Finn wasn't doing the talking?). She is the only daughter of two gay men (something she points out to people every chance she gets, usually to get something she wants) who have likely been encouraging her talent for music and rarely reigning in her ambitions or her more extreme behavior. Her actions seem to suggest that she is '''very''' used to getting her own way despite her lack of popularity. Everyone in the glee club was picked on for a reason, Artie was in a wheelchair, Kurt was gay, Mercedes was fat, Tina stuttered, Rachel was picked on because she was incredibly annoying to everyone around her. Rachel has shown some mild [[TheLibby Libby-like]] tendencies within Glee club and would most likely be one if she were more popular.
******* Well said, I agree with the majority of your points (however I still feel she is getting better and while at the Pilot and half-way through the series so far she probably would've used her popularity to become The Libby I would say that at this point in the series she wouldn't, although this is Glee and they do like to set StatusQuoIsGod in motion a lot). Although the few brief moments between her and Puck were important for both their character developments (although I have to admit we've gone back to square one with both of them since)- when he was slushied for the first time she was sympathetic and nice to him, even though he was the one who'd done it to her so many times before. So I think she has the capability of being nice, but her diva-like tendencies and selfishness prevents her from being so.
* Just posting here, that after Hairography, I will woobiefy Rachel, I still think she is annoying, but she doesn't deserve that much crap :(
* Is anyone else forgetting that at the time, Rachel was openly trying to steal Finn from Quinn and the whole reason for the makeover WAS to take Finn from Quinn. . .
** Well, why should Rachel care about wrecking Quinn's relationship? It's strongly implied that Quinn regularly bullied Rachel pre-series, and Quinn has admitted to drawing pornographic pictures of her in the bathroom. She also confesses that if Rachel were pregnant, she (Quinn) would "torture" her for it. Rachel may be annoying, but she hardly deserves that kind of treatment. Besides, even given that neither Rachel nor Finn knew about Quinn's baby's true paternity, Rachel would see freeing Finn from the bitchy Quinn as a good deed, if only to satisfy her own ego.
* "Sectionals" has shown that some of her CharacterDevelopment has paid off, as she is reluctant to take the solo away from Mercedes in the club's revised set list and agrees with Finn that Mike Brittany and Matt are probably their best dancers and should be the ones to choreograph the new routine. She also let Artie present Mr. Schue with the sectionals trophy and [[IncrediblyLamePun gleefully]] pushed him around with it. I'm sure time will tell that she can still be incredibly annoying, but at least she's a much nicer person than she was in the beginning. It looks like someone finally threw away the "Diva reset button."
* Could it have something to do with getting a teacher fired by falsely accusing him of sexual abuse? I know that's why I hate her.
** Granted she was exaggerating, but she wasn't actually lying. Sandy has his hands all over that Hank boy in that scene.
* The only thing that bugs me about Rachel is that she's such a drama queen. CharacterDevelopment has turned her into less of a diva which is just fine. Though, Lea Michelle is reportedly a huge diva off-stage.
* First off, I would like to state that I am subject to many surgeries, and am wheelchair bound often and most of my reactions to the way people react would be similar if not more optimistic than Artie. But there's one thing I can't accept- [[DudeNotFunny Rachel pushes Artie towards the edge of the stage not once, not twice BUT THREE TIMES!]] [[ThisIsUnforgivable That's awful!]] Worse yet, nobody even worries that this might get him seriously injured. But even so, even if it wasn't toward the edge of the stage, having somebody shove your wheelchair across the room is just insulting. I mean, shoving somebody is standing up would be met with indignation or worse. This isn't just sensitivity to people with disabilities- '''this is a basic personal space issue.'''
** The Glee Club, Schuester included, does have a tendency to just run up and start spinning Artie around like a toy without his permission. The character doesn't mind, but in real life that's usually not the case. In fact, it's freaking rude.
*** Yes, but sometimes it's part of the choreography for a performance, like in their first version of "Don't Stop Believing" where Artie ''couldn't'' move himself because he was playing guitar. Presumbably this is stuff that they worked out ahead of time that Artie agreed to. He's also shown that he has no problem if anyone wants to do the work for him and push his chair around at school or elsewhere.
*** Artie seems too nice to really say anything though (at least initially). He may in fact mind very much (in some cases outside of the dancing and singing) but he isn't comfortable yet to say "Hey, stop that!" or it may not be a big enough bother to him that he says anything. It's just stupid quirks he deals with from his non-wheelchair bound friends. As well, we're missing a lot of the non-verbal communication - just like you know without anything being said that situation A is okay for you to grab the hand of your friend and pull them somewhere to show them something (or whatever) while situation B isn't okay, there may be a lot of that between Artie and the others where they know "This is okay now" and "This isn't okay now". Take the scene in a recent episode where Artie and Finn are in the locker room and Beast says "Well, what are you two waiting for? Get your gear on and get out on the field!". At that point, Finn pushes Artie out of the locker room, that may be one of those situations where there's not need for a verbal; they're both clearly excited and happy, they're both going to the same place. Likewise in Throwdown when the entire club storms out; certainly, Artie might wheel himself to the stairs, but if everyone's pissed (including Artie), again, they're going to know "Well Artie's pissed and storming off with us..." and just go to grab his chair as opposed to just leaving him there. But in situations where say... he's just talking to Finn during casual conversation, the two might have enough experience with each other that Finn knows not to try to push Artie around unless Artie says something or there's some reason to.
* Does Rachel really even love her two dads? We see what, one picture of them in one of the first episodes, and then she only ever brings them up to threated suit. Combined with the way she treats Kurt (although not entirely undeserved, I'd hate him too), and her character could easily be interpreted as homophobic.
** She probably does love her dads and she probably isn't homophobic. The one picture isn't any real sign since we never see much of the other kids parents either (with a few exceptions). Bringing them up is probably like any other kid say "Well my dad/mom is a lawyer/doctor/firefighter/senator/biker/badass and they'll beat your dad up/beat you up/sue you/is more badass than your dad!"; it's more just a childish way of threatening someone and showing that you're better. And though she may not like Kurt (or whatever), she hardly seems to have any sort of fear of gays much less discriminate against them.
* In the second season premiere, her diva tendencies might just cost the team their next competition. Great job making me hate you again, Rach'.
** In 'Britney/Brittany', Rachel is at her most psychotic. 'I want to be the ''only'' thing that makes you happy.' for one, and then forcing Finn to choose between her and football (I think it's an easy choice: [[spoiler: football]]) and rather consolidated the fact that she's INSANE. I hope that 'The Only Exception' might be signaling CharacterDevelopment, but then again, this is ''Glee''...
** She doesn't make him choose at the end of the episode, though, which definitely DOES signal CharacterDevelopment. If StatusQuoIsGod happened, she would bring up her issue with football again and again, but she doesn't. And I would argue sending Sunshine Corazon to a defunct crackhouse because she could potentially take away Rachel's solos is the most psychotic she's ever been.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Santana "angry stares"]]
This borderlines WMG, but since I don't actually have a theory I will post here. Santana is often giving "evil stares" or "death stares", specifically to Rachel, mostly notable in episode 8 during the song "Sweet Caroline" (that looked like she was jealous of Rachel), episode 9 during the song "Defying Gravity" (that just bugs me? does it means that she likes Kurt better?) and mostly notable, in the same episode she gives one to Brittany and Becky (disgust? disapproval?)
* Well, Santana ''was'' shown previously dating Puck. So, even though ''she'' broke up with ''him'', maybe she's just jealous that he's turning his attentions to Rachel, who ''is'' supposed to be a loser.
* Okay for "Hairography", why did Santana call Puck "her man" when ''she dumped him'' in "Acafellas" for not having a big enough credit score?
** But why show a "evil stare" in the middle of Defying Gravity? There is so many times to do it, but putting in the middle of a song, should mean something...
*** [[{{Juno}} Maybe that's just her face.]]
** Hey, she's still in high school. She probably doesn't know what she wants in a relationship yet, and keeps changing her mind about Puck.[[/folder]]
[[folder:Choral arrangements do not work that way! (usually)]]
* Most of Mr. Schuester's arrangements consist of one long solo and everyone else is stuck with oohs and aahs. In real life while arrangements have solos most groups, especially in show choirs keep the solos short, usually at the beginning of the song. The two main reasons are, one, that long solos make drama, very unnecessary drama. And two, they look really bad in competition. Most judges view long flashy solos as a way of the chorus coping out of more complicated harmonies and hiding the fact that they can't blend.
** This. So. Much. Short solos can be two measures, and even the longer ones are a pretty short section of a song. In the show, Proud Mary is probably the closest one to a show choir song, and sadly, Carmel's (fancy moves and crazy difficulty withstanding) is closest. (Seriously, where is he buying these arrangements, because it's not from a company that sells show choir music.)
** See above about the other person complaining about the music in the show.
** Taken to the extreme in "Don't Rain on My Parade," where the rest of the show choir isn't even there.
** RuleOfCool, RuleOfFunny, RuleOfDrama. The show never promised an accurate depiction of show choir strategies.
*** Meh. Rule of this, rule of that, can be used to justify anything. but if you are making a show based around a Glee club and their performances, then there should at least be a slight touch of realism in how those performances are done.
**** If you want realism watch a documentary, not a musical.
*** Does the MST3KMantra apply to non-science fiction shows?
*** The MST3KMantra applies to anything that requires WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief. This is a comedy-drama that requires solos. While I agree that other characters need the solos and there should be less of them, it makes for better television. So... there you go!
* Actually, this sadly does happen sometimes. In my Jazz choir, even though several singers were just as good if not better than one of the girls, she was the go-to girl for solos because the teacher was convinced that she was the best. Most of the time the teacher didn't even bother asking any of the rest of us if we would like to try out for the solo, and the rest of us would be stuck with oohs and ohs.
** The set list at Regionals moves a ''little'' closer to what an actual show choir does. There are more solos and they're spread out among more people and grat focus is given to the choir as a whole rather than one or two singers while everyone else does backup, and in general as the season progressed the actual "performance" pieces (i.e. the numbers that are performed as an entire choir, on stage, for the purpose of possible competition) have been including more and more members of the club for solos and putting a greater emphasis on the '''entire''' choir in general, rather than just one or two soloist. "Faithfully" is still, essentially, a duet between Finn and Rachel, but yeah, sometimes you just have to DO a duet that way. "Anyway You Want It/Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin'" and "Don't Stop Believing" TheCastShowoff for the ENTIRE cast rather than just one or two of them. I wouldn't get ''too'' used to it as this was the finale, but it's a taste of how things ''might'' go in the second season, with greater emphasis on the group rather than the individuals.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Continuity]]
* Is it just me, or does Glee have continuity issues? In the first few episodes, Will doesn't know Emma likes him, but when she announces she's marrying Ken he acts disappointed in a way indicating that he has feelings for her too. There's other examples, but that's the one that sticks out in my mind the most.
** Willful obliviousness is one of Will's character traits; the fact that he acts as though there's nothing between him and Emma doesn't mean that there isn't anything there. That notwithstanding, there are several episodes that explicitly show something stronger developing between Will and Emma until Ken calls her on it and gets her to start dating him.
** Also, Will at the time was happily married. He was trying to maintain a professional relationship by simply ignoring any chemistry.
* One thing I noticed in "Hairography" is that, even though a major change was made in the previous episode, with Quinn staying with Finn and his mom, this was not mentioned at all. In fact, somehow Quinn is already wandering off with Puck as if she and Finn didn't have as strong of a relationship as they seemed to in the last episode (even though they seem to press "reset" at the end).
* And then there's the romance between Artie and Tina, which was barely hinted at before "Wheels", looked like it was going to become a continuing story arc, and then was never mentioned afterward.
** Well... There wasn't actually anything hinted at it in the ''script'' itself before "Wheels," but the writers and producers told Kevin and Jenna about their characters upcoming romance well before they ever started shooting it so they ad-lib little bits on their own, such as Artie and Tina usually sitting together, having her push him around school, and being paired in several of the dance numbers together. As for not mentioning it afterward Artie and Tina simply haven't gotten the same level of focus (i.e. any at all) since "Wheels" ran, so we just don't know how it will play out yet. Both of their actors seem very sure they'll end up together though, and are certain ''very'' close in real life.
* In episode 10 Quinn is kicked out of her house and moves in with Finn while Puck tells Mercedes that he's the true dad. The next episode Quinn and Puck consider raising the baby...while no mention of these 2 pretty major facts are made?! And in episode 12 Quinn refers to baby as a bastard despite wanting just a week earlier and Mercedes still hasn't said anything!
** The baby is a bastard - "the illegitimate offspring of unmarried parents"
* In the third episode, Kurt claims that his dad let him have his own car basically on the condition that he stop acting so gay. This seems completely out of character for the man we're introduced to just one episode later.
** Being gay doesn't mean you have to have a hope chest full of tiaras. I think Burt's main concern is that Kurt is going to get hurt. He also probably didn't like that Kurt was basically lying to him.
** Just because Kurt's father is ''accepting'' of Kurt being gay, doesn't mean he likes it, and it certainly doesn't mean he's comfortable with some of the more ... [[{{Understatement}} overly]] [[CampGay flamboyant]] aspects of Kurt's character. He is trying really hard to accept his son for who he is, but ultimately it is still something that makes him uncomfortable. Also, while he is okay with his son being ''gay'', there are ways of expressing gayness without being CampGay -- see StraightGay. Nevertheless, Kurt and his father also get CharacterDevelopment (possibly bordering on CharacterizationMarchesOn) since that episode. Whereas Kurt was perfectly happy to lie to his dad about the condition of having the car, and his dad seems to be a lot more disapproving of Kurt's gayness, in ''Ballads'' we clearly see Kurt deliberately choosing not to do certain things which would hurt his father even though they are extremely important to him -- ie throwing the ending of ''Defying Gravity'' -- and in return his father talks to him and explains how he feels about the phone call instead of acting gruffly and uncommunicative as in the first couple of episodes.
*** In the most recent episode (Theatricality), Kurt's dad has obviously changed his attitude about Kurt's homosexuality - he stands up for Kurt against Finn in a CrowningMomentofAwesome.
*** I read a fanfic that gave a good explanation. Mercedes explained what happened, offered to pay for the damages, and asked Burt why Kurt couldn't have his car back, mentioning what Kurt said about him finding the hope chest of tiaras. Burt explained that he was scared at the idea of people throwing things at Kurt's car, especially while Kurt was inside it, and that, this time, it was Mercedes, who wouldn't hurt Kurt, but next time, it could be someone who had darker intentions. He acknowledged that it wasn't exactly fair but that, as a father, he had to do certain things to help control his fears of Kurt being hurt. Kurt either lied to soothe Mercedes's guilt or was genuinely mistaken about the reason; I don't remember which. Granted, it was a fanfic, but I thought the author did a good job of giving a plausible, in-character explanation for the changes in canon.
*** I think Burt is simply a case of CharacterizationMarchesOn. The Burt we've seen is one who spoils and supports his son. The only time he didn't give into Kurt's whims was when Kurt wanted him to stop dating Carole. Even when Kurt was planning to miss their annual Friday dinner, Burt didn't threaten to ground him or outright forbid him from blowing it off. He simply argued, said he was disappointed, and left it at that. This Burt wouldn't take Kurt's car away because of a chest full of tiaras. In fact, he'd probably be the one who bought them and the chest.
* Where the hell is Quinn living now? She got kicked out so she's staying with Finn except Finn can't stand to be in the same room with her - is she still living in his basement?
** This was solved in Laryngitis; Quinn is currently living with Puck.
** And now Mercedes. All of which actually makes sense. Finn and Puck both wanted to prove they could be fathers (established as canon) and so offered her a place to stay. Since Finn was her first choice, she went to him first.
* Now we have it with Brittany and Artie. A lot must take place offscreen because apparently he was supposed to want her back at some point between 2.04 and 2.06. This was never hinted at until the 'This is what you missed' in 2.06. I'm seriously getting to the point where I feel this show has NegativeContinuity unless stated otherwise.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Hairography]]
!! Hairography (the episode).
* Almost every one of the characters pretty much had [[DethroningMomentOfSuck Dethroning Moments of Suck]] here. From Sue leaking out the setlist ''right after'' Will and her have a genuine (not that way) moment, Puck's "sexting", Rachel's epic fail "seduction" of Finn, Kurt's manipulation of Rachel, Quinn being man needy, Mercedes getting up in the middle of the deaf choir's song (as someone else put it: "Yo I'm really happy for you and I'mma let you finish, but WE normal people can sing y'all"), Santana's "your man" line...And these are all characters I ''liked'', seriously. Anyone else seriously bothered by this episode in general in terms of characterization?
** Will and Sue did ''not'' have a moment. Will had a moment and Sue lied to his face like she's done not only to him, but other people countless other times.
** For Puck and Sue, those parts were really less [[DethroningMomentOfSuck Dethroning Moments of Suck]] than actually consistent with their characterization thus far. Santana hasn't had much characterization, but what little she ''has'' had definitely depicted her as an unsympathetic character.
*** I dunno, Puck seemed like he had been getting some characterization lately as someone who was willing to commit for the sake of the baby -- this seemed like a really, really painful and dethroning incidence of StatusQuoIsGod.
** Also the deaf choir CLEARLY didn't mind the Glee kids joining them in the song, it looks more like they were actually happy about it because they were able to teach a valuable lesson about being yourself over Hollywood showboating. Notice the first two people to join them are Mercedes and Artie, the two characters who never bothered to hide anything about themselves.
*** And Brittany was pretty close behind. It was more like they turned their practice into a jam session, rather than took over their performance. I think the kids would have told them to piss off if they had a problem with it, but actually the soloist and Mercedes seemed to be kind of flirty.
**** Plus, the rest of the Glee kids try to follow along with the sign language. They definitely weren't trying to overshadow them.
***** Of course, there's still UnfortunateImplications, that the deaf kids aren't exactly valuable on their own as a glee club, but they are good as something to Learn a Valuable Lesson from. They weren't allowed (by the writers, or whoever) to perform the song by themselves.
***** See the above statement about turning the performance into a jam session, such things actually do happen between competing glee clubs in real life (not during actual competition, mind you). If the deaf choir had a problem they would have spoken up, or their director certainly would have.
* Also, the deaf cellphone jokes were unfunny and downright ''insulting'' to deaf people. In fact, the whole treatment of the hearing impaired in Hairography was demeaning and chock filled with UnfortunateImplications.
** The director was an asshat. The kids were really cool. Just because somebody is deaf (in one ear. SCARLET FEVER!) doesn't mean they can't be a jerk, idiotic or grate on your nerves harder than a nerve-grating record holder. I thought what they did with the kids was really well handled but also that the director part was showing a less showcased "disabled people can be arrogant annoying tools too y'know"
* What really irked me about the Kurt/Rachel dynamic in that episode was the blatant lie at the end of it that was treated as canon truth, that Rachel was just a distraction and Finn really wanted to be with Quinn and always had. This despite completely contradicting earlier episodes like when he kissed Rachel for the last time and said he didn't know what would happen in the future, just that he wanted to spend time with her now (translation: I want to be with you, but it turns out I have an obligation to fulfill that will soon make that impossible). Granted, Finn and Quinn have grown as a couple since the start, but it seemed disingenuous to imply their closeness was anything but recent.
** Kurt didn't even know that Rachel had feelings for Finn before this episode. I think it's safe to assume he has no idea that Finn feels the same way or that they've kissed.
** Hi, I'm dramatic irony. Pleased to meet you

!! Hairography (the dancing)
The whole purpose of the Hairography dancing and the episode was to distract from the bad dancing and singing. The girl's school's singing wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible (they seemed more like a choir than New Directions, which is nearly always a few long solos and backup oohs and aahs) and their dancing, if you looked at it, was really good ''as dancing''. Then, when New Directions did their song, their dancing was better (judging by physical skill level) than most of the rest of their performances, and they totally disregarded the step up they took. I understand the lesson about a personal, heartfelt performance being better in the end, but the whole thing (combined with Rachel's makeover and the weirdly slutty clothes) just felt like a bit of grasping at straws for fanservice.
** New Directions dancing in "Crazy in Love/Hair" is SUPPOSED to be unnatural and bad though. The point was to invoke the CrowningMomentOfFunny as they did with "Push It" but from a totally different direction.
*** I know that, but the girl's school's dancing was slutty and looked like PCD, yes, but the dancing itself for the most part took talent and some skill, but Rachel was all "It's all fake they actually suck blah blah blah." It's also possible to dance while using "Hairography" without all the girls in the group wearing skimpy clothes, but somehow in both Hairograpy numbers the chicks were wearing short shorts and tank tops. The whole thing just didn't ring true for me.
**** Keep in mind that this is a school for mostly lower-class students who have had troubled lives and their director is played by ''Eve'' (who can hardly be called conservative). They originally wanted Whitney Houston, but she turned them down.
* ThisTroper thought that Rachel was right, the girls were not very good but the annoyance came in when Rachel, trying to make Will feel better, points out their hairography and instead of thinking this is a bad thing Will decides to put all the guys in wigs and have them dirty dance.

!!The scene with the deaf kids in Hairography.
* Why does everyone think that this was a really touching scene? The only thing I could think during the whole scene was that the Glee kids were stealing the spotlight from these deaf kids who were trying as hard as they could to sing.
** This was mentioned above under "Hairography".
*** This troper finds this a case of positive discrimination. If the kids were simply ''tone'' deaf and singing off key, it'd be fine for people to roll their eyes and wonder why they were in a choir. However because the kids are completely deaf, suggesting that they shouldn't perhaps competing in a genre that requires the ability to detect sound, becomes immediately taboo. Even if we take the viewpoint that everyone should be free to express themselves in whatever way they see fit, regardless of disability, it still doesn't explain how one would objectively judge a deaf choir against a hearing choir with perfect pitch.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Pregancies (Terri and Quinn Issues)]]
!! Is there any real reason that Terri started, then continued, lying about her pregnancy?
* From what I can tell, Terri didn't tell Will when she found out that she had a hysterical pregnancy ''only'' because she didn't have the heart to do so when he was so excited about having a kid. Okay, maybe that makes sense in that moment, but afterward, why would she continue to lie until she became pretty much stuck with somehow faking an entire pregnancy (which is just not possible)? Why didn't she come clean earlier or at least pretend to miscarry? (Yes, she's a DumbBlonde and kind of crazy, but what's her motivation?)
** Terri tells her sister that Will already has one foot out the door (which isn't actually true, but Terri seems to have some abandonment issues) and that the baby is the only thing keeping him around.
*** In episode 12, it's made all the more clear that she did it out of severe abandonment issues.
**** Not to mention as time goes on, the lie kinda keeps building on top of itself. Maybe it would have been easy to pass it off early on but a month or two in after everything she'd done... that makes it kinda hard to simply say "Sorry, I lied! It's a fake. What do you want for dinner?" Terri, for all her flaws, loves or at least wants Will... and seeing him break is more than she can stand. So the more jazzed he gets about the matter, the harder it is to reveal the truth until something inevitably... something happens and reality sets in.
*** Well, she at least tried to get pregnant for real at first, but she probably tried for too long and too late. Also, "hysterical pregnancy" has a psicological element, so while it doesn't justify in a logical level, it showed that she ''would'' act like that.
** After re-watching the episodes on DVD, it made more sense. Soon after Terri found out about her hysterical pregnancy, she was panicking while asking her sister how she should go about telling Will. Her sister told her to keep up the act, because it could ruin her marriage otherwise. Later, Sue told her that Will was already having an affair with Emma at school, and that she needs to become a nurse to keep a close eye on him, less her marriage crumble to pieces. Her sister, Sue, and her severe personality disorder caused her to be misinformed, and acting irrationally. If anything she's a woobie to me.
!!Fans and their pregnancy wisdom
* Why is it that most fans seem to think Quinn's baby is made of spun sugar? "Omg, she jumped on that mattress! She's going to kill the baby!" "Omg, she's laying on her stomach, it's squished!" "Omg! She slipped and fell, she's going to miscarry!" And it's always the ones that have never been pregnant who are saying this.
** I think that the mattress scene was the only really dangerous (it did have jumping), but yeah, that is a bit of overreaction with a bit of GenreBlindness.
*** Quinn jumping on the mattresses wasn't that dangerous, her baby bump's not big enough to inhibit her movement yet. In fact she spent most of the time lounging on the mattress while the other kids jumped. The blond doing the flips was Brittany.
** It is kind of dangerous that Quinn was doing dangerous cheer leading stunts while pregnant (and what we've seen of the Cheerio routines has made it pretty clear that they aren't simple). However it is very annoying when some fans started complaining about her doing simple dance moves like the ones in "You Keep Me Hanging On" and "Hair/Crazy In Love". Just walking around really fast does not make you miscarry.
** A lot of Glee's fans are high school kids. Abstinence-only sex ed only just recently lost its federal funding, and the stuff they're hearing outside of school is probably worse. So most of them don't know nearly as much about reproductive health as they probably should.

!!Baby needs a home
* So, Terri still wants the baby after what happened in Mattress?
** Possible, she just lost her husband and she might think a baby would fill the void. Nevermind the fact that she doesn't really have any way of caring for a child on her own as she barely works, but Terri doesn't really seem think things like that all the way through.
*** I think that before Will left Terri, Quinn was going to give the baby to her, then maybe she won't because the baby won't have a father figure anymore and what happens to the baby is about the second 1/2 of the season.
* I bet you 50 bucks that baby is going to Shelby Corcoran, another woman unable to have kids who always dreamed of having one.
** Sue would be another surprising (and hilarious) option.

!!Puck getting Quinn drunk
* The show implies that Puck deliberately got Quinn drunk to have sex with her. Why doesn't anyone realize how [[RapeIsLove immoral that is]]? And on that note, why doesn't Quinn tell Finn or her parents this?
** The only evidence we have of this is Quinn's word. She tells Puck that she slept with him because "[he] got [her] drunk on wine coolers and [she] was feeling fat that day". This is during the same argument where she calls Puck a Lima loser. She might have just said that to hurt him, or she might be using the fact that she'd had a drink or two to justify what she did in her own mind. We'll never know how drunk she actually was, unless they do a flashback.
*** Agreed. Let's not forget the background Quinn comes from; she's taken a chastity vow and has been taught that extramarital sex is immoral and anti-Christian, so it's probably hard for her to admit both to herself and to Puck that she actually wanted the sex. It would be in keeping with the ''Glee'' writers' position on how the abstinence movement denies female sexual desire (remember Rachel's "Girls want sex just as much as guys do" comment?) that a girl who buys into the celibacy movement would have trouble acknowledging her desire for sex and would feel obliged to frame it as the guy's idea.
*** They did a flashback, and the answer was "not very".
** They were probably BOTH drunk.
*** Both parties being drunk doesn't disqualify it from being rape. If the other person says no and you ignore it, you can be completely blinkered, it's still a crime.
*** But there is no indication Quinn ever said "no" to the drink or the sex, just that she regretted her own actions later.
** Given the fact that Quinn's parents are religious, I doubt they'd accept "I was drunk" as an excuse for Quinn's getting pregnant, regardless of Puck's actions.
** If you want a more blatant case look at what Sue did to Principal Figgins (although whether or not she actually did have sex with him is unclear. She ''did'' still drug him, drag him off to a sleazy motel and use that as material for blackmail).
* The season finale showed that they were making out and Puck basically talked her into going through with sleeping with him, she did go through with it willingly.

!!Quinn eating the drug filled cupcakes
Surely that would be bad for the baby, so why didn't Puck stop her?
* We don't actually see her eat a cupcake, just her wiping frosting off her hands, which makes sense since she was handing them to people. The only glee club member we actually see eating them is Santana. Besides 1 cupcake with a little bit of pot won't harm a baby that much (think about how many babies have survived mothers that are heavy drinkers or actually smoked pot).
** You're kidding me right? This troper's friend's mother smoked pot (and took heroin) when she was pregnant with him. And you know what? Not a single birth defect, as a matter of fact he weighed in at a very healthy 9lbs at birth and was 5 foot eight by the time he was in 7th grade. If anything the pot HELPED him.
** And this is pot we're talking about, not cocaine or even alcohol. Many of the "harmful effects" of pot are exaggerated or at least debatable, and largely depend on the motivations of those conducting the studies. Not that it's a good thing to do if you're pregnant, but there's a big difference between a pregnant woman smoking/eating pot and one on hard drugs.
* What really bugged me about the cupcakes was their explanation of how they sold so many. Walk through this with me. They can't sell any cupcakes. Puck makes it so that anyone who has a cupcake wants more cupcake (not how the munchies work anyway, but oh well). Suddenly everyone wants a cupcake, even though they would have needed to eat a cupcake in the first place to "get the munchies", which they clearly weren't doing. [[FridgeLogic Fridge Logic]] anyone?
** Two words: free samples. Who would turn down a free cupcake?

!!What's going to happen to Quinn?
Is Finn ''still'' going to take care of her, even after he found out the baby wasn't his or is he going to kick her out? Is she going to move in with Puck? Is she going to live on the street?
** That's what the second half of the season is probably for.
** "Laryngitis" confirmed that she's living with the Puckermans now.

!!Baby Bump
* The visibility of Quinn's pregnancy seems to be constantly going back and forth. In the dance sequence with the girls in the Madonna episode, it wasn't even there. It's rather inconsistent.
** Diana (who plays Quinn) said that she was definitely wearing the baby bump for that sequence, it's just that the corset the girls were wearing made it seem like it wasn't there.
*** What is a pregnant girl doing wearing a corset.
**** What is a pregnant girl doing on the Cheerios squad? What is a pregnant girl doing jumping around on mattresses? What is your statement doing with a question mark? Quinn has obviously demonstrated poor choices in her treatment of her body while pregnant (though based on an above section it really isn't that bad; as a male I have no idea). Also? She has no money and is getting no support from her parents; has she been seeing doctors who will tell her "Don't wear a corset"? None of us know. It is completely reasonable to accept her doing something this silly. Also? She's wearing a corset during a SONG AND DANCE NUMBER with an INSTANT COSTUME CHANGE. Dianna Agron isn't really pregnant.
***** No shit the actress isn't pregnant, genius. But she ''has'' been seeing doctors. This is ''shown'' to us. It's been ''shown'' that she is taking extreme cases during her pregnancy to be incredibly careful. When she became too pregnant she was thrown off the cheerios. Then she stopped doing extreme strenuous and dangerous dance moves when she got too pregnant. And during the mattress scene she was only sitting on the mattresses or basically just standing on them, she wasn't doing extreme stunts and flips on them with everyone else. hen you're ''seven months pregnant'' and you can't even fit into a pair of jeans anymore, it should be a little more than common knowledge to anyone with a set of lungs to not wear a corset.

!! Custody Laws
* This is less of an issue after the finale, but this has been bugging me since Quinn first said she wanted to give up the baby. Both Finn and Puck several times say they want to be fathers, want to keep the baby, and Quinn tells them they can't, because she's giving her up. CUSTODY LAWS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. The father has to actually, legally give up his rights to the child before she can be put up for adoption. It's mentioned several times, a few times in front of adults who would know of these laws even if kids wouldn't, that Finn (and later, Puck) want to keep the baby or at least be in her life, but Quinn is never called on the fact that she can't stop them! At least not without involving a court! Gah, it bugs the crap out of me.
** Well it's not like she was actually acting like their wanting to be fatherhood was ''actually'' legally binding or counting as official custody. It was made pretty clear that they both were well aware that Quinn is the one who had the decision.
*** But. She doesn't have the decision. Their wanting to be an actual father to the baby WAS legally binding and DOES count as official custody. That's the part that bugged me--both Quinn and the father has a right to the baby, to decide whether or not to keep it after it's born. This is never addressed [[spoiler:except maybe in the finale? When Puck is actually given the choice? But even then it's more implied that Quinn is allowing him the option rather than Puck enacting on his own rights as the father]].
** I think the point is that Finn and Puck both wanted to raise the baby ''with Quinn'', and Quinn has no interest in starting a family with anyone at this point in her life. It may have never occurred to either boys that becoming a single dad was an option.
** Similarly, [[spoiler:Shelby would not have been able to immediately take Beth]]. This sort of thing generally requires court appearances and during that time, the child would be placed with a foster family.
*** She could if it's a private adoption and both parents agreed to give her the baby. It's happened before. The less government involvement, the less time it takes. Of course, there's no good reason why Quinn and Puck would want to give her the baby though.
**** Perhaps because she is a stable adult who could raise the baby in a loving home? I'm sure there was more to it than what was shown (especially since there are photos of Puck being comforted by the Glee club after), but her being a healthy adult that ''wanted'' the baby and would love it was probably good enough for Quinn (and Puck seemed to want to agree with Quinn's wishes, even if he did want to raise the baby)?

[[/folder]]

[[folder: Kurt]]
!! KURT.
I get that all the characters are various stereotypes, like dumb blond, evil cheer leader, school bully, and all that. But all of them have added depth, and their stereotypes are deconstructed to show us there is MORE to them than just that.
But there has been nothing in the show to give us any sign that Kurt is anything more than just "the gay guy".
And the way he treats Finn is creepy and revolting, trying to seduce him when he is going through an emotional crisis? He acts meaner to Rachel than Quinn ever did when she was a cheerio, but fans just suck it all up and say "Kurt's gay, so it's okay."
He's the closest thing to a villain in this show below Sue right now.
** Kurt flat-out told her that both of them were behaving inappropriately (he didn't apologize for his actions either though), as it's pretty obvious that for the moment at least Finn wants to be with Quinn and if either of them actually cared about him they should respect that and stop trying to steal him away from a fellow glee club member, and person they are supposed to be supporting through a difficult time. He doesn't make excuses for his action but at least he admits that he was wrong, and their moment at the end of the episode where they watch Finn and Quinn walk away together seems to suggest that all was forgiven between them.
*** And let's not forget how manipulative Rachel can be. Not only has she been "helping" Finn for the sake of the team (read: Finn. Quinn even lampshades it!) she asked Finn over in her new getup.
** Also this show is pretty much fueled by "Love Makes You Dumb". Seriously, is there any romantic relationships that are "smart"?
*** This is high school. LoveMakesYouDumb tends to happen to even the most rational, cold-hearted of teens.
**** As someone who is presently in high school (hooray for non-verifiable anecdotal evidence), I can testify that this is a blatant exaggeration. Considering ''Glee'' has gained a reputation for apparently deconstructing tropes, it seems rather hypocritical that it would play this one painfully straight.
**** And as someone who finished high school less than two years ago, I can testify that this is TruthInTelevision. Everyone's experience is different, I guess.
** The impression I get is that Kurt wants Finn so badly that he's deluded himself into believing not only that it's possible to "turn" Finn, but that Finn would actually be better off with him than with Quinn or Rachel. (And honestly, he might be half-right.) It's not hard to understand his desperation. To a lonely teen with no experience, finding a boyfriend can seem like the key to happiness. Kurt seems to be the only openly gay kid at [=McKinley=] High, so it's not like he has a lot of other options. His actions are reprehensible, of course, but I still feel plenty of sympathy for him.
*** TL;DR: Kurt's gay so it's okay.
**** Um, no. I did not say that it was okay. I said it was ''understandable''. There's a difference.
**** The idea that a homosexual would believe that he was able to 'turn' someone else gay carries a whole heap of UnfortunateImplications itself; it implies that Kurt believes that it is a switch on/switch off choice, rather than something you are born as.
**** Or, maybe, just ''maybe'' Kurt wanted Finn so much that he hoped that maybe Finn was just lying to himself. It's likely he ''knew'' it was a fantasy, but Kurt isn't exactly rational. ThisTroper doubts Kurt seriously thought people could just switch sexualities because of the way Kurt and and his father interact. His father, before some character development, probably would have preferred Kurt had one of those on/off switches. Kurt would know better than to think he could make Finn gay. It was more "if there's even the slightest chance of him being gay, I have to find out" rather than "I know he's straight but he can change!" A rational person would probably not have suggested Rachel "slut it up" in the first place. ThisTroper can attest to wishing someone you had a crush on was actually gay, but this troper never acted on this crush.
**** And thisTroper had the very interesting experience of meeting one young lady, going "holy ''shit''" and falling in love with a girl for the first time in her life. It's not completely unreasonable - I don't think Kurt is hoping to "turn" Finn (this is not ''{{Twilight}}''!) so much as hoping that Finn will have that same sort of "holy shit" moment. I adore Kurt - I think he has his issues, and I really, really love that he's being portrayed as someone believably human. GreyAndGrayMorality, guys. I'm not saying he's not flawed, I'm just saying that he actually is a good person who's been put through absolute shit and that's maybe messed him up a little. I wasn't so unlike him, once. Hell, I still am. He's just desperate to be loved, and he's sixteen. Most of us are completely stupid at sixteen, god knows I was. And I for one am ''really'' looking forward to his upcoming relationship arc - I think it's going to be very, very good for Kurt to be in a healthy romantic relationship with someone and I'm really excited to see what Chris Colfer does with it. TL;DR: ''Kurt is not a bad person.'' He's made mistakes; he's young and desperate to be loved. But this doesn't mean he's evil. So seriously? Leave the guy alone, all right?
** It is VERY odd that this day and age our beloved Kurt couldn't just... find a date on-line, I know is sort of dangerous, but to gay guys is a worth option.
*** This is a TV Show. If he ever tries online dating, all bets are it's gonna be a murderer, kidnapper, or something equally nice.
**** Probably a woman. Or, if the writers don't feel like they're offending enough of the population, a transman.
** Also, Another UnfortunateImplications is that: Be nice to a gay guy = He will fall in love with you. * Shudders*
*** I don't see what Kurt being a gay guy has to do with that. Lots of people are attracted to kindness, this straight female troper included.
**** I agree, but the thing about implications is that they don't actually need to be true. Kurt is over the top camp gay, is not hard to see some people buying it. There is also the fact that it looks like Finn is the only male character to be nice to him (I don't know about Artie though)
*** I think it was implied that he was infatuated with Finn before they actually knew each other, and actively cultivated a friendship in hopes that Finn would eventually return his feelings. They are in the same class, with Brittany, but since Finn was a big dumb jock and Kurt is a loser, it's unlikely they ever interacted at all before Finn joined Glee--it started out as one of those crushes where you don't know anything about the person but you like them anyway.
**** But this is how some romances happen - straight or gay. You find someone you're infatuated with and cultivate a friendship. Either it dies, it happens, or it remains just friends.
*** This straight troper has ended up with be nice = fall in love (or at least, saying I was cute and so on and so forth). There's nothing wrong with that as long as one is able to handle such attraction maturely rather than (to paraphrase someone) "If they express attraction what I perceive as an unwanted advance to me, I'll get really angry and punch them a lot."
*** Though it seems pretty damn manipulative from an adult point of view to befriend someone with the intention of seducing them, it's pretty common in high school - both for straight couples and gay couples. Let's not forget that Rachel and Puck are doing the same thing, with Finn and Quinn respectively. In Kurt's defense, he's secretly aware of the fact that Finn is straight and thus can't return his feelings, and stays friends with him anyway. What makes it immature is if the infatuated one drops their new "friend" like a hot potato as soon as it becomes apparent that their crush is unrequited. (Or inversely, if the other person wants nothing to do with their friend/admirer once they find out their feelings for them are more than friendly... ThisTroper had this happen to her in high school, from a guy who was probably secretly gay himself. Thus for me, Kurt scores major points for having the maturity to ''not'' do this to Mercedes.) "Befriend them" makes sense as a tactic, when you think about it, seeing as some of the best relationships evolve out of friendships, and geeky, awkward kids in particular would have trouble asking out someone they didn't already know.
* The fact that there are no other gay characters to show they might be aware that being gay doesn't automatically include Beyonce and leotards is kind of grating too. The only other gay character in the show? Sandy the pedophile. Nice.
** Oh, and there's also Rachel's dads. .... who raised her a spoiled brat on showtunes and Barbra Streisand worship.
*** This actually a reason why I dislike her character, she is sort of a UnfortunateImplications about gay-parenting.
** Hopefully his boyfriend won't be a stereotype.... or at least not as much of one.
*** WordOfGod says the boyfriend will be a 'regular guy'.
* To me Kurt's interactions with Finn didn't come across as creepy, or at least not more so than Rachel's. They actually have enough in common that they're believable as friends, even though obviously there's the {{Subtext}} of Kurt being in love with Finn and Finn not really wanting to address the issue.
* I have to talk about this someplace. I adore Kurt, but him throwing the 'Defying Gravity' audition in "Wheels" was pretty weak. Especially in light of the song being about how 'no one's going to bring me down' his dad gets one phone call (what, all that money and a place of business has no Caller ID?) saying his son is a fag (which his dad already knew), and Kurt folds like an origami weaksauce. That's UnfortunateImplications on a grand scale: for pennies a day, for the price of a single phone call, you too can bully your own gay kid into backing down.
** Kurt wasn't throwing it for himself though, he was throwing it to protect his Dad. While he was strong enough to deal with being called a fag (he even says something to the extent of "so what? that happens all the time") his father wasn't so Kurt chose to put his Dad's needs in front of his wants. My interpretation was more "for pennies a day, for the price of a single phone call, you too can bully a straight father"
** In addition to the above, the song is also partly about giving up your dreams in the cold light of reality, and forging new, more realistic ones from the ashes. In this respect, Kurt giving up his own dream (of singing the song in front of a large audience) to spare his father the pain that would come with it is very much in keeping with the theme. This can be seen in part of the omitted preamble to the song, which involves the lines:
-->'''Glinda''': "You can have all you ever wanted..."
-->'''Elphaba''': "I know. But I don't want it... no. I ''can't'' want it. Any more..."
* Everything about Kurt trying to manipulate his father and Finn's mother and then plotting to tear them apart when it didn't work out as well as he'd hoped (and by that, I mean HE didn't get anything out of it). This, in addition to how he treated Rachel with the whole makeover nonsense, makes him come off as a really manipulative and selfish person. Not very sympathetic, at least for me.
** Possibly because he wasn't supposed to come off as sympathetic? He was supposed to be seen as manipulative and selfish?
** Not to mention that everyone I talked to asked me if he was ALWAYS that creepy after ''Home''. The {{Unfortunate Implications}} of having a stalkerish, selfish, manipulative guy... who happens to be the only gay character on the show? Yeah, good job, writers.
*** Really, the bonding moment at the end between Finn and Kurt's dad was nice in a quiet way, heart warming way. Then it shows Kurt STANDING RIGHT OUTSIDE FINN'S WINDOW just ''watching'' them while crying. I didn't know whether to laugh at the narm, or to freak out over just how creepy it was.
*** That would only have UnfortunateImplications if all of the straight characters were well-adjusted and virtuous. This is ''Glee''. Kurt is by no means the worst person on the show.
**** My problem with Kurt is how the character is handled. ''Nobody ever calls him on his crap''. He's always the poor gay guy who's life sucks (which is completely understandable, I can let that one slide) who can get away with anything because boohoo his life sucks (which is FAIL). I can't stand the character, and find him utterly unsympathetic, and what annoys me most is he's always portrayed as the innocent victim. The breaking point was when he yelled at his father for having the nerve to talk to Finn about football. How dare Burt have a common interest with someone?!? And at the end of the episode everybody's learned an important lesson... but Kurt, who acted like a selfish jerk to his father, his father's girlfriend and Finn, gets off scot-free because he's gay so it's okay. All the other characters get called on the crap they pull, but Kurt's always the poor innocent victim, which apparently is supposed to completely justify him being a manipulative, self-obsessed, borderline-delusional jerk. Finn had a point when he said that it's fine that Kurt is so different from everybody, but Kurt assumes everyone else is as flamboyant and as different as he is, and it's their fault for not being the same as him. That would seem to be ''ENORMOUSLY'' hypocritical for the token gay character. Being gay is not a get-out-of-jail-free-card for being a jerk, but ''Glee'' treats Kurt that way, and it's infuriating.
***** The scene you cite had nothing to do with him being gay really re: him being forgiven. He overreacted to the fact that one of the only people he's close to, his Dad, was spending less time with him. He admitted that, his Dad said he could see why it was hard. Hardly a shouting match for Burt having a common interest with someone. His Dad forgives him because he's his Dad and sometimes families don't have perfect dynamics, not because Kurt's ''gay'', and Kurt barely did anything (that time) anyway. He just tried to dress differently for a bit to 'act straight' and then had a bit of a tantrum, where his Dad called him out on acting the victim.
* If we're going to go on about characters who are one-dimensional stereotypes, Kurt is hardly the worst offender. That would be ''Mercedes''. As campy as Kurt is, he also likes football and helps his dad out at his car shop. But there is pretty much nothing about Mercedes that doesn't ''scream'' SassyBlackWoman. Tina, too, adheres pretty strictly to the stereotype of the shy, demure Asian girl.
** Tina may be shy, but there's nothing demure about some of the high-octane FetishFuel outfits she wears, like that lolita-inspired number she wore in "Wheels."
** It should also be said that one of the main themes of the show is deconstructing stereotypes to show the ways that people tend to just hide behind their labels. I think the way that all of the characters are almost closer to archetypes than stereotypes, it's set up to show high-school as a caste system, and these kids are using Glee Club to break out of it.
* In defense of Kurt, I think the whole storyline with Finn and the parents was very well done in that he got his comeuppance while remaining sympathetic. When his manipulations were all said and done, the two widowed parents got a second chance at love, Finn got a surrogate father figure, Burt got (though he'd never admit it) the jock son he always wanted, and Kurt was deservedly bit in the ass for doing it all for entirely selfish reasons that were doomed from the start (ie, seducing Finn). But then you see him watching from outside and realize that all he ever wanted was a boyfriend and to be closer to his father, showing that even he can be TheWoobie under the right circumstances. Would he have done all this if he were a rational adult? Probably not. But remember we're watching teenagers here.
** Now Finn is homeless and nobody's holding Kurt accountable for the constant sexual harassment, invasion of personal space, or general hypocrisy. Fail.
*** ... WHAT? Finn left the home at the middle of the episode, and the next scene he was perfectly clean, with different clothes. The next time we see him, he managed to get a GaGa outfit his size. (He's obviously not with Puck, Quinn, or Rachel). Either everything was solved offscreen, or he returned to his old house.
**** Also, what kind of mom would stay with her boyfriend and let her son just wander around town at night? If Finn did get kicked out, probbably both of them left and moved back in to their old house. Which probably isn't much of a loss for Finn anyway, since he didn't want to move to begin with.
***** Finn clearly states that he made the dress from the shower curtain, meaning he must have gone back at some point. It's entirely possible that he never had to leave, and Burt's "You can't live here with that attitude" was supposed to be an ultimatum, rather than a straight-up GTFO.

* Kurt's flaws, sometimes being manipulative, selfish and even vindictive are exactly what makes him avoid the UnfortunateImplications. By showing that he's not perfect, or worse yet, a MagicalQueer, this makes him just like everyone else.
** Explain to me how making the only gay guy manipulative and selfish is ''NOT'' an unfortunate implication. Because your defense sounds more like you shot yourself in the foot and said "take that."
*** (Not original poster) It's not UnfortunateImplications because, while he's the only gay character(so far) he hasn't been the only one to act this way... basically, EVERY character has had some sort of KickTheDog moment, some more "evil" than the others. Kurt, by being like the other characters(Having both virtues and flaws) avoids the PositiveDiscrimination... and only gets UnfotunateImplications if you ignore everything the other characters do, and focus solely on the fact he likes guys instead of girls... which would be UnfortunateImplications of yourself...
* Alright, It seems as though one of the biggest issues here isn't that Kurt can be a manipulative bastard (which, out of all the characters, he is far from the worst) but that he never gets called for his shit. My question is, Who's going to call him on it? The only characters that really notice how he acts towards Finn, and care, are Rachel and Finn himself. Both of them do, at one point, call him out for his creepy behavior. Unfortunately Rachel doesn't have nearly enough moral high ground for her to be very effective at chastising him. Finn appears to have two modes "Nice to the point of being spineless" and "Raging to the point of being scary" neither of these modes are very good at communicating the message to layoff.
* This gay troper hates the fact that Kurt is so...gay. Most of my gay friends are repulsed by Gaga and Beyonce, have no sense of fashion, and don't act like total prisses. Why can't Kurt be more than just gayer than gay? Why couldn't they make a gay character who is part of the bear community? If they really want to tear apart stereotypes, that would be perfect. For the first part of my high school life, I felt out of place because I was a hairy, masculine guy who was gay. What better dramatic plot point? Then it becomes more about personal identity instead of stereotypes.
** Ah but perhaps they are tearing apart the deconstructed stereotypes... The past decade a lot more media ARE avoiding the gayer than gay males and making them as anti-stereotypical as possible to avoid being called out for stereotypes, and in the end isn't Glee the hotspot for stereotypes. Dumb jock= Finn, Puck. Bitchy Cheerleader= Santana, Quinn. Sassy Black woman= Mercedes. Nerd with thick glasses, braced and suspenders= Artie. I do not think there is a single character that isn't a stereotype. Even bisexuality has an implied stereotype, it seems to be implied that Santana and Brittany are together to entice boys but [[{{YourMilageMayVary}} YMMV]]
*** Funnily enough I have yet to see any character on the entire show who is a big masculine, hairy male... Puck, Karofsky and Burt are borderline but only barely and from the incoming new characters it doesnt seem like that is going to change.
**** This Troper actually believes it is pretty important to the story that Kurt is a more flamboyaunt gay. In real life, you'll meet a lot of people who say things like "I don't mind gays, as long as they aren't flaming". Apparently all gay men have to be super macho and all lesbians have to be super feminine to compensate for the fact that they are homosexual. A more feminine gay man would have a harder time fitting in than a macho one, even if they are out of the closet. A big theme of the show is dealing with discrimination, and the flambouyant gays get waaaaaay more discrimination than the ones who fit their gender stereotypes better.
* It`s a small thing, but Kurts out of the blue "Really Brittany??!!!!" (after she asked if Finn could fly) really bugs me.
* I'm gonna be a dissenting voice here and say that the fandom's ''reaction'' to Kurt at times bugs me. Mainly, the idea that it's terrible to portray it as OK to be "stereotypically" gay (because it's only OK to be gay if you 'act straight'? If every gay guy was like this on the show I'd understand, but we have a sample size of ''one''. It's very offensive to the gay teens and men actually like Kurt to say they're "not allowed.") and the idea that Kurt gets a 'free pass' because he's gay re: being manipulative in regards to Finn. I've heard a lot of, 'if Finn was a girl there'd be a restraining order', except... similar things ''have happened'' with men and women on the show. Like when Will flat out tells Emma that he won't stop pursuing her after she asks him to. Or when Finn more or less ''tells'' Rachel to break up with Jesse. And the difference is: Kurt may not have been explicitly called out, but it never went well for him, did it? Yet Rachel ended up with Finn and Will/Emma seems to be the endgame goal right now.
** Additionally, this idea that Kurt provoking Finn to anger with regards to the "faggy" comment excuses it. Was Finn right to be angry? Absolutely! But the idea that this has anything to do with the use of homophobia as a weapon to 'teach the gay guy a lesson' is totally illogical. Likewise, the idea it justifies telling Kurt, a gay guy, as a straight guy, that he needs to stay away from straight guys because the straight guys just have to deal with so much stress because of it in "Duets" keeps being justified as fine because Kurt... er, had an obsessive crush on him once. Connecting everything bad done to Kurt to his admittedly OTT crush is getting old, and so is acting like it justifies things like treating straight guys' issues to be innately worse as OK.
* Apparently Burt wasn't the only person who didn't get what Rose's Turn was about. It's a song about a manipulative, selfish person realising that their self-centredness has cost them what they really care about it. That's why the scene is immediately followed up by Burt telling Kurt off for acting the victim. And yet people still whine and complain about that episode treating Kurt's whole attitude as being alright...

!! The gaylesball and Kurt's lack of interest for it
* Alright, I get it. All the characters hate Rachel, gosh she's a bitch, blah blah blah. But if Kurt's a good person, wouldn't he take any opportunity he has to make amends with the girl he humiliated in the previous episode? Rachel irritates me as much as she irritates him, but is Kurt really not going to do ANYTHING to try to make things better? And this character is supposed to be sympathetic?
** Sometimes you just don't have any interest in making up with someone. If you grind on them long enough, even nice people will eventually decide it's not worth the effort anymore.
* Not to mention, in my experience a LGTB group in his high school would make his life easier. Who knows, it might have encouraged other cute gay boys to come out of the closet...
* Didn't Rachel tell him that she wanted to start a gaylesball because it would officially make her the most involved student at [=McKinley=]? Maybe he was offended that she was only doing it for that reason. Plus, founding an LGBT group at his school would put Kurt and his sexuality in the spotlight even more, which is something he's already decided to avoid for his dad's sake. Not that any of that excuses his rudeness.
** Rachel's reasons might be selfish, but it was still a good idea. Not to mention that Kurt owed her after the humiliation he made her go through. After Hairography I thought that Rachel would stop talking to Kurt for a while. Not only she didn't, but he shrugged off a undeserved chance to make things better. Also... Wasn't that before he decided to hide his sexuality?
*** Make things ''better''? This is Lima, Ohio. Remember why Kurt threw the Defying Gravity solo? He didn't want to put himself out there to the entire town as a gay guy to be mocked and insulted. What do you THINK a GSA would do? And doing it with Rachel, who he hates and who sees to attract attention for all the wrong reasons, and topped it off with the fact that she's only doing it for the chance to be in a bunch of clubs.
**** Make things better with ''Rachel''. Remember how he got her to dress up like a slut for Finn in Hairography, knowing how Finn would react? He did an incredibly cruel thing. He doesn't have to start a GSA, but is it too much to want him at least to be civil to the girl he owes an apology to?
***** Do we have reason to think that he agrees that he owes an apology?
****** Are we still supposed to think he's a sympathetic character if he doesn't?

[[WMG: Kurt's pity-party over his dad bonding with Finn]]
* Kurt throwing a pity-party after seeing his dad bond with Finn. Now, it would be perfectly understandable if Kurt's dad was one of those JerkJock fathers who refused to accept his son being anything other than an athelete, but Kurt's dad was the complete opposite. He's been nothing but supportive to Kurt throughout the entire series, even threatening to sue the school for ''prejudice'' when Kurt wanted to go for the lead female's vocals. The fact that Kurt set his dad up with Finn's mom, [[ManipulativeBastard just so he himself could get closer to Finn]] only made the idea of Kurt playing the victim all the more hollow.
** Even though Burt is definitely not a JerkJock, I think Kurt realises that he is not Burt's ideal son, and that someone like Finn is, which is why he's upset.
*** Agreed. This is actually the one part of Kurt's storyline in "Home" that didn't bug me.
** Because little things like that can hurt a lot and/or Kurt is over-reacting. Someone already stated on this page that while Kurt's father is loving and accepting of his son, it's apparent he's still not comfortable with the more campy aspects of Kurt's personality and it's really not that much of a stretch seeing Kurt take it so deeply, seeing his father get along with Finn to well.
** But shouldn't Kurt try and show his father the same courtesy that Burt shows him? We know that Kurt actually enjoys playing football and knows his way around cars, so even if Burt and Finn start bonding over sports Kurt should at least make the attempt to try and share with his father in something he likes. We know that Kurt loves his father and hates seeing him hurt, but Kurt can still be incredibly self-centered and insensitive himself, but that's just par for the course, he's a teenager.
** Kurt ''does'' get called out on the fact that he's not showing his father the same courtesy Burt is showing him ''by'' Burt. Kurt blows him off and tells him he wants to be alone and Burt leaves him alone. Kurt is flawed and his relationship with his father is a defining aspect of Kurt's character. It's dynamic. This troper still thinks Kurt is being unfair to his father and an asshole for manipulating Finn's mom and his dad, but it's not as if he gets away with either of these things. Burt and Finn both call him out at least once.
*** He should but he isn't perfect. Isn't that why (in part) it's a good show? Interesting and flawed characters rather than Marty/Mary Sues? :)
*** But the thing is the show seems to be making us side with Kurt. Which annoys me to no end, seeing as how he got this whole thing to get into Finn's pants, and horror of horrors, Finn and his dad actually GASP! get along well! How selfish of Kurt's dad to possibly show any interest in things besides Kurt. In no part of the show did it indicate that Kurt was in the wrong, all it did was do close ups of his puffy lips and diva tears.
**** This troper doesn't see the show trying to make Kurt a victim. Just flawed and pointing out how ridiculous Kurt is being. The show does more to call Kurt out on his idiocy than it does to make him a victim. Note that by the resolution of the plot, Kurt realizes he's being an asshat and makes up with his father rather than his father being "Sorry, I'll stop dating and being nice to a kid who needs a dad". For instance, Burt gave Kurt -many- opportunities to join them (pre- and post-dating). Burt mentions involving Kurt in sports and then brings up Kurt basically being unhappy/not enjoying that - as a result, Burt stopped trying to drag his son into things his son didn't like. Kurt, if anything, needs to be more accepting of his dad and trying to involve his dad in things not the other way around.
** People are giving Kurt WAY too much credit in this one. He introduced his dad to Finn's mom(Sure, for his own selfish plans) but it's not like he ''forced'' them to date, or drugged them or anything. It's actually an example of a plan GoingHorriblyRight as now not only Burt is on an (apparent) serious relationship, but he's bonding with Finn in a way that Kurt ''knows'' will never bond with him.
*** Kurt not only introduced them, but also set up dinner dates between them, convinced Finn's mom to throw out her old stuff and move on, as well as giving her a make-over and pointing out her low-cut jeans to his dad. Kurt was in charge of the whole scheme.
**** Again, too much credit. Either of them could have rejected the idea, but both went along with his devious schemes. He ''might'' have influence on his own father, but there is no way in hell he could have made Finn's mom agree if he didn't not want to move on, at least on some level.
** Original Poster here. After the most recent episode I'm still not anymore sympathetic to Kurt's situation. Now admittedly, it can't be denied that Finn crossed the line by calling Kurt's items "Faggy" but I still find it grating that the show continues to cast Kurt as the victim despite it was Kurt's own manipulations that pushed Finn over the edge in the first place. The main grating part is just that Kurt has still refused to acknowledge [[IgnoredEpiphany his own jerkassness]] in all of this and is continuing portrayed as the victim.
*** The problem is not that Finn was pushed over the edge, it's that when he's pushed over the edge and loses his inhibitions he automatically goes to a gay slur to get his point across. Kurt being manipulative and obsessive is completely unrelated to Finn's used of homophobic language. The two have nothing to do with each other. There's two bad situations... Kurt being obsessive AND Finn being homophobic. They're not comparable or even very connected, just both there. Both of them were victims and instigators in different things.
*** And the reaction by fandom seems to have it backwards, since all this troper has heard is [[WhyDidYouMakeMeHitYou "Kurt, why did you make Finn say such nasty things to you?"]]
*** It's not so much that the fandom is trying to give Finn a free pass as much as it is that Kurt's jerkassness is rarely ever addressed in these incidences and the one time it is, he refuses to even take any of it to heart.
*** Basically, strip away the bad word. Finn was calling Kurt out on Kurt stalking him. Up until that point, Finn, while not doing in the best way was at least justified. The bad word certainly crossed the line and no one is saying it should be overlooked. Turn Kurt in to a girl - would we see Kurt(ina) as sympathetic or would we see her as something less so. Or what if it were a straight guy in Kurt's shoes and Finn was a girl - again, would a guy doing all the things Kurt did be sympathetic? And on the other side, again, Finn could certainly have acted and responded in better ways. In short, ''both'' of them are bad guys in this. The only real sympathetic part comes in because Finn's probably stressed and freaked out over how fast his mom's relationship is going (which doesn't excuse him) and Kurt desperately trying to hold on to his fantasy that he can change Finn or at least make their relationship better only to watch as his actions bring everyone else crumbling down (which again, doesn't excuse him).
**** 'Turn Kurt into a girl'... oh, you mean when Rachel was obsessive about Finn and tried to get him to do things like make out with her when he had a pregnant girlfriend? And she ended up being rewarded by the narrative in a way Kurt wasn't.
**** Nah... turning Kurt into Courtney would set the double standard of [[Twilight "Why Finn doesn't realize Courtney is really truly in love with him and does that crap out of love??". Turning Finn into Fiona would have the same result]]. Basically, Kurt is a creepy stalker mostly because he's into a straight guy. OTOH stripping away the bad word doesn't work... is basically the whole reason Finn crossed the line. Burt wouldn't have been so angry i he had said something else, or if he had only complained about the decor of the room. Hell, he probably would have supported Finn. But jjst think about it: Had Finn said the N-word at a black kid, would ''anyone'' be defending him?. OTOOH, yes, they're both to blame. ''everything'' could have been avoided by "Mom, I don't wanna share a room with Kurt. He's gay and while i don't have a problem with that, i know he has a crush on me and I'm afraid this might get his hopes up or something"
***** We're defending his right to not to get harassed but we're not defending his right to say bad words. Just because we agree with some of what he says, does not agree with everything he says. Same for Kurt - we agree that, slowly, he's realizing the truth of the matter and is trying to make amends and we can and will defend that. We are not however defending his 'right' to be manipulative and stalk people whether he is male or female, whether the target is male or female. The whole point of taking away the bad word is separate those two parts in to less binary terms.
****** I keep on seeing people saying "Faggy" is a bad word. This troper doesn't see how it's so horrible. Sure, using it as a substitute for "All things gay" isn't good, but who cares? Y'all are too caught up in the Politically Correct
******* I think you need to go back and listen to Burt's speech to Finn. He explains why that word is so offensive much more eloquently than I can.
******** But I'm gay and I have nothing against it. Besides, by that logic, "dumb" is also foul as it is a term for being unable to speak, "lame" is as well due to it meaning a hinderance to the ability to walk, or just an inability to walk. "Stupid" also offends on that basis, because it applies to anyone with lower intelligence. Either go completely PC, or realize words take on more than a single meaning as time progresses. Don't forget, as well, that in the gay community, we use the term "queer" (or at least several of us), which originally meant weird or strange.
********* You do realise ''one'' not-straight person being OK with it does not suddenly make it OK in a wider context, and that queer people reclaiming terms isn't the same at all, yes?
********* With all due respect, that's like saying, "I'm a woman and I'm not offended by sexism. Clearly you are all too PC." Or "I'm black and I haven't been personally affected by racism. Clearly you are all too sensitive." Just because ''you'' don't see it as a bad word doesn't mean that it isn't considered one. Also, since Finn was deliberately using it as a slur, and not as a joke or something, it takes on the negative meaning.
********* This troper, having lived in two very different parts of the country (the NE and SE, specifically), has noticed that the offensiveness of the word "faggot" and all its derivatives varies from place to place. In the town she grew up in, the term is extremely offensive, on par with the worst of the racial slurs. Even typing the word just now made this troper extremely uncomfortable. In the areas around her college town, especially the more rural areas, the term means more or less "really uncool". I can't say how acceptable the term is in California, but I can't imagine it's looked on fondly.

[[WMG: Where the hell did Kurt get that sign?]]
* His second solo in "Laryngitis" is performed against a huge lit sign of his name and this sequence takes place fully within real time. His amazing performance plus making up with his dad afterwards are at least three different Crowning Moments, but I can't get over that sign! Where has he been keeping that??
** The sign was all in Kurt's head and fades out as soon as he's jolted back to reality and is no where to be seen afterward (the lights behind him and his dad are just normal light trees.) He was actually performing in a dark auditorium. The song is traditionally formed with a giant "Rose" in lights that fades out at the end, and is always supposed to be symbolic, not real. I'm sure Burt would have mentioned it if it was actually there.

!!"I have exactly the same vocal range as the famous 16th-century castrato Orlando di Lasso."
How does Kurt know this if standardized musical pitch scales have only been around since the 1700s, and even then there wasn't an actual standard until the early 19th century, and audio recording devices have only been around in the last couple of hundred years (even more recently when it comes to any medium with decent staying ''and'' playback quality)? If he was just bragging, you would think someone who cares enough to actually research individual castrati would know better than to use such a ridiculous boast. Was it a joke that just didn't land?
** To top it off, Orlando di Lasso wasn't even a castrato.
*** Wasn't even a... He was talking about ''[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_di_Lasso that]]'' Orlando de Lassus!? [[CriticalResearchFailure Wow]].
** I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the DidNotDoTheResearch was on purpose. After all, the Finn getting Quinn pregnant one was.
** I thought it was hilarious because of all those things. Fact: male singers back then were often castrati. Fact: Orlando de Lassus was (and is) a famous musician. I took it as Kurt trying to make himself sound smart and failing. YourMileageMayVary.

!!Kurt's WoundedGazelleGambit in Episode 20.
* I think it should be noted that Season 2 is going a long way to resolving some of these issues. In "Duets" Burt specifically takes Kurt to task about how Kurt wasn't honest with him and more-or-less sides with Finn on the issue. It goes a long way toward Kurt realizing that his similar behavior to cute new boy Sam is inappropriate. Kurt is still sympathetic, though, since the episode also highlights how lonely Kurt is in school.
If I were Kurt's dad, as soon as I got done chastising Finn for calling him a fag, I would have turned to Kurt and said:
-->"And ''you'' mister, what the hell is up with this room?! If Finn is gonna live here, he has as much say in how it looks as you. And where do you get off violating his privacy just for a cheap thrill? If me and his mother get married, you two are gonna be stepbrothers, and [[NotBloodSiblings that's just nasty.]] Didn't we [[AesopAmnesia just get done]] talking about how you have to learn to respect others' differences too? '''Finn is straight. Let it go.''' You can find plenty of nice gay boys on Myspace. And one more thing, did I just hear you say you '''skipped school?!''' No Marc Jacobs summer collection for you!"
I mean hell, I'm gay myself and I think Kurt is stepping out of bounds with no reprimand.
* Kurt's dad is kind of oblivious, and he seems not to have heard anything prior to "this faggy blanket" (and ''possibly'' the bit about the lamp). Even if he did get the whole point of Kurt's XanatosGambit (and didn't just think that Finn was being a homophobe), not calling him on that and ''definitely'' the reason he didn't call Kurt on setting up the harem decor without Finn's input was reverse discrimination with at least a hint of nepotism.
** Ah, the good old "''My'' kid can do no wrong!" dilemma that blended families know all too well.
* While Kurt certainly has crossed the creepy stalker line before, he was making an effort to tone it down in this episode. I don't think he was trying to turn the room into a harem, he was just truly clueless as to what Finn would like, and he was trying to be more respectful with the privacy partition. Now he's still not innocent, but I think Kurt knows that. Chris Colfer was definitely playing him with some guilt in that scene. Plus, Burt's reaction right or wrong was very much what a real dad would do, especially not knowing the entire situation.
** The reoccurring problem though is just like the previous episode with him throwing a hissing fit over his dad bonding with Finn, Kurt has still yet to actually acknowledge his own faults in all of this. In no way was Finn right in any of this, but just like before, Kurt's manipulations are given another free past.
** Kurt may have had the right intentions but there's not way in heck that Kurt wouldn't know what Finn would like. Kurt's been playing stalker for some time now, he's been friends for Finn for a while, and it's Kurt's seen the sorts of interactions Finn has with other people (notably, Kurt's own dad). Kurt might not know Finn's favorite color or anything like that but there's no reason why Kurt would ever think Finn would go for what what Kurt did. To be fair, yes, a shared room is a big change so things like the privacy thing are a sign of respect. But Kurt could have also decorated his side of the room and let Finn decorate his own side.
*** Finn never showed any interest in the decor, or how the room looked, until after Kurt redecorated.
*** Um, maybe because he didn't mind it as it was?
* Presumably, we'll have to wait and see how the story develops. It's likely that after Finn defended him at the end of the episode, Kurt will come clean to his father about everything and finally get his WhatTheHellHero.
** Knowing this show, that'll all happen off-screen and they'll be living together as one big happy family in the next episode without ever explaining how things got that way.
** Kurt gets WhatTheHellHero ''constantly'' . We never see his reaction afterwards because the focus is always in another character.
*** No he doesn't. The only time I can remember was in 'Larynigitis', where Burt calls him out on his self-pity.
* I think the whole thing is the parents fault. I wrote my beef on the What The Hell Hero? part of the Glee page.
** Agreed. All the trouble would have been avoided if they had asked Finn's opinion, or i don't know... if ''they had let him have his own room''.
* Kurt's dad's reaction was pretty extreme. Even ignoring that Finn didn't call Kurt a fag, deciding that he and his mother couldn't live there because of one instance of homophobic language is kind of extreme. He should have, at the very least, called in Finn's mom to have a talk with her son about his behaviour.
** He was acting on impulse. They probably talked after that.
** Also, Burt only threw Finn out, not his mom. And it was unclear whether Burt was simply throwing Finn out of the house for the evening or permanently.
*** I thought he said, or at least strongly implied, that she and Finn were an all-or-nothing deal (he ''is'' [[DawsonCasting sixteen]]), and his exact words were something about Homophobe-Finn not staying under his roof.
* The problem is Kurt seemed remorseful at how he had let things come apart like that after Burt's outburst. Then, the next time we see him, he apparently has decided to just go ahead and blame the whole thing on Finn. It'll be interesting to see if Burt actually did kick him out of the house. If he did, and Kurt doesn't try to stop it, it effectively makes Kurt look like he's invoking IfICantHaveYou (and that's not even mentioning [[ParentalAbandonment what it says about]] [[JerkAss Finn's mom]]).
** It felt more like a "time out" honestly.
* ''le sigh'' Kurt is ''16 years old'' boy. He's not a MagnificentBastard, he doesn't have mind controlling powers over adults, the worse he could have done is nudge his father into convincing Finn's mom to move in together, but that's as far as his influence goes, if neither of them had wanted to, it would have been the end of it. Yes, he's making mistakes, but all we saw on screen is that Finn is paranoid(justifiable) because he ''knows'' Kurt has a crush on him, Did we saw Kurt trying to watch Finn in the shower? No. Changing clothes? Nope. Spying him in any way? Nope. The only thing shown was that he ''tried'' to respect Finn's privacy, and tried to redecorate the room to something he ''thought'' Finn would like, GoneHorriblyWrong, as he has barely a understanding on how a "straight" guy's mind works, as shown in the previous episode. And he ''always'' gets called out on his behavior, but the thing is, when it happens, the ''other'' characters gets more focus, so we don't really know how he reacts after being called out. I know he's not a saint, but NONE of the characters are, and frankly others have done much worse things, and got free passes both in the show and the fandom. Puck, for example, is way more manipulative, violent and all around jerkass than him, but he gets DracoInLeatherPants treatment.
** The room-designing thing wasn't coming purely from the goodness of his heart, even ignoring the harem decor. The money Burt gave Finn was given specifically so that Finn would feel more comfortable with the move and could personalize some of a space that Kurt had already personalized for himself. Kurt didn't ask to take the money, didn't ask to decorate, and didn't ask what Finn wanted- there would be issues there even if he was straight.
*** The "harem decor" was ''manlier'' than the stuff Kurt had before, in all honestly. And even Burt said it looked good. Kurt is not entirely blameless, but watch the episode again, and Finn doesn't show ''any'' interest in redecorating until after Kurt redecorated. Did he complain when Kurt took the money? Did he said he wanted the room to be decorated in a certain way?
**** Your mileage may vary as to whether it was manlier or not. If Kurt had gotten rid of a couple of things, it would have been downright {{Zeerust}}, and we all know how [[SpaceClothes incredibly]] [[HaveAGayOldTime manly]] those old pulp sci-fi comics were. The harem/opium den decor was, how might it be put... "frou-frou"? It was lavish in a way stereotypically reserved for the idle gay rich, guys with seven wives, and no one in between. The important part, though, is that Finn got absolutely no input on it, and it turned out looking, in his opinion... see above, and [[RantInducingSlight the episode itself]] for that matter. [[ArsonMurderAndAdmiration Although you have to give Kurt credit]], [[ArsonMurderAndLifesaving he wasn't lying when he said it'd make Finn's skin tone look a lot better]].
**** Note that Finn had no opportunity to say anything - he was ambushed with the "We're moving in!", "You're sharing a room!", and "Here's money!" (which, if taken the wrong way, could be seen as Burt trying to buy off Finn), and then before he could do anything with the money or say anything Kurt jumps in and takes the money away from him then states what 'they'll' do. Finn (again, not that he isn't innocent in the matter), it's been established, has problems speaking up and standing for himself unless other people press him. As well, this is a someone who's lived in his own room and had his own privacy as well as a certain empty house normalcy his whole life... and now his environment is completely changing in a way he simply can't imagine. Again, yes, he could have done things better but so could have everyone else in at least getting his input in the decision making process. Basically, he's feeling helpless and doesn't know how to respond because no one will let him.
** Simply because he's the focus of the calling in this instance doesn't excuse either one though. Both Finn and Kurt are both justified and both at fault, not the least of which is because of poor communication. It's irrelevant who is more or less at fault and trying to justify Kurt as somewhat more innocent because others have done worse is silly. The JBM is not that Kurt isn't justified or not justified; it's that people seem to be ignoring that Finn has some justification to be a little angry and we've seen Kurt do alot from beyond this one episode.
*** Hum.... no. Look at this page, the characters, WMG and the main one. Kurt is getting * all* the blame, and everyone is justifying Kurt. I agree, the three parties(Kurt, Finn and Burt) handled the situation ''horribly''(It's even a bit of Fridge logic in that, they said the house is "twice as big" as Finn's, and yet they seem to have only ''two'' bedrooms... and one of them is the basement...). Other people doing worse stuff doesn't justify Kurt, or minimizes his actions, but it's jarring when ''he's the only one been demonized by the fandom''. Seriously, he has even been called a "sexual predator"
**** I really don't see how his scheme to get into Finn's bedroom could be described as anything other than stalking. If this story was done with Puck and Tina in place of Kurt and Finn, nobody would be on Puck's side.
*** The difference being between Kurt and Finn in this case is that Finn was actually called out and faced the consequences for his actions. There's no reason to complain for Finn for getting away with his actions because, wait for it, he ''didn't.'' By the end of the episode he acknowledge his own prejudice and actually took steps to move past them. Nobody is trying to give Finn a free past, it's more annoyance over Kurt ''not'' acknowledging what he did wrong.
**** Basically, in regards to this subplot... Finn has been taken to task by his mom for being too clingy to the memory of his dad, Finn's mom has been taken to task by Finn for disregarding the memory of her husband, Burt has been taken to task by Kurt for his mother. Burt gave up 'guy time' with Finn because of Kurt. Finn's been chewed out by Burt. And so on. The only thing done to Kurt? Finn yells at him for having desperately ulterior motives and Finn is treated as the bad guy. All of that is the annoyance; yes, everyone is at fault but 3 out of 4 have been called out on it and given up things to make things work. Kurt? Kurt hasn't given up anything. And it's not that we're trying to say Kurt is a villain, everyone else hero/victim. It's that everyone -is- a villain and has done something wrong and it's wrong to say that someone hasn't. And it's also not that everyone isn't justified either; everyone has some justification for why they did, good and bad - Burt was protecting his son but also jumped to conclusions, Finn was bothered by his world getting turned upside down but didn't have any constructive way of handling it, Kurt was trying to mend fences but his past actions marred his efforts, Finn's mom was trying to make herself and Finn happy/have a full family but didn't talk to Finn about it.
***** Kurt ''does'' get called on his behavior when he tries his straight boy routine to try and impress his dad, but since he wasn't hurting anyone other than himself it comes across as more supportive the disapproving. Burt again called Kurt on his selfish behavior when he first started dating Finn's mom, but rather than Kurt facing the consequences of his action he chose to ignore his dad instead. People know what he's up to and tell him so, but so far he has yet to face any serious consequences for his selfishness.
***** Actually, when he was acting straight, he basically manipulated and used Brittany, even if she was only in it for sex. More aptly, she was likely made into a laughing stock because she was the only person who couldn't see exactly what Kurt was doing. The way he coldly told her to "go away", when he was talking to his dad really pissed me off, particularly because it was clearly supposed to be funny.

!!Kurt the Designated Victim
* So they're playing Finn as a homophobe for finally snapping after Kurt makes advances on him constantly after being told straighforwardly to stop it, then taking advantage of any situation to try to "convert" Finn, to the extent that he's manipluated their parents into moving in together and has Finn and himself sharing a bedroom - then to add insult to injury redecorates that room in a way that, sexuality stereotypes aside, Finn doesn't want to live in. Anyone who doesn't think this behaviour is at the very least ''fucking creepy'', just imagine it's a girl and her StalkerWithACrush and see how it looks... not to mention from the flipside it plays up the kind of DepravedHomosexual stereotype that causes the "backs-to-the-wall" mentality Finn's allegedly guilty of. Plus, those cushions ''were'' pretty f... never mind.
** OK, I think the best way to put it is this: you can call a boy who is gay out on his shit without acting like his shit is due to him being gay by using gay slurs. Finn getting angry is justifiable. Finn's reaction to being angry being to use his straight privilege to act like the ''real'' problem is Kurt being 'faggy' is not. He could have been the shittiest person in existence: still not OK to connect that to his homosexuality. He was played as a homophobe for nothing more or less than saying something homophobic. A gay guy being a dick to you doesn't give you the right to attack them for being gay, jeez.
** Kurt was ''never'' been told to stop the advances prior to this episode. He said he didn't want to move in with Kurt, but he never said "Stop it, you're making me uncomfortable." Sure, it's clear Finn was ''thinking'' that, but part of the problem is that he was being too wishy washy to actually tell Kurt to back off. Looking uncomfortable is not rebuffing. If Finn were a girl, she'd be accused of leading Kurt on for not giving him a straight no (plus there'd be all these fangirls saying [[StalkingIsLove "He only does it 'cause he loooves you!"]]) If Kurt were a girl, people would say: "Ha! Look at those silly females and their psychotic crushes. Good thing they're entirely harmless." And if they were both girls, well, people would just think it was hot. But this situation gets the reaction: "The elusive Homosexual preys on helpless teenage boy! RUN FINN RUN!" Anyways, the storyline was presented so that you're ''supposed'' to sympathize with Finn and think Kurt was out of line. Finn had the higher ground up to the point where he used hateful language. Anger is no excuse; not saying it in anger is the ''real'' test. The problem isn't that Kurt is gay, it's that Kurt was acting creepy; but Finn and his apologists are equating being gay with being a predator.
** While I agree that Kurt is * Way* out of line, i would also like to point out, for the nth time, HE HAS NO PSYCHIC POWERS. He might have "manipulated" his dad and Finn's mom into the first date, but there is no way in hell they would have started a relationship (let alone move in together) if they had not wanted to. The "sharing a bedroom" is just as much the parents' fault as Kurt's fault (Even if he hadn't a crush, his father knows he's gay, and it's almost as bad as if they were a boy and a girl). There was a lot of pressure on Finn, but I REALLY hope this help him and he * stops* being such a damn doormat, look at the previous episodes, and he only lets "anger" overcome him when he's at his limit, other times, he just acts uncomfortable, which is not the same as saying "No". They're both wrong, and they're both guilty.
*** If Finn were a girl, we'd be calling Kurt a stalker.
**** Two words: [[{{Twilight}} Edward]] [[StalkingIsLove Cullen]]. If Finn were "Finnessa" you'd have a bunch of people saying "Omg, bitch! Can't you see he just does it because he loves you?"
***** And people with brains would be mocking those people for believing that his stalking was romantic.
****** Yeah, [[SarcasmMode because the only way to show other people they're wrong, is being childish and immature]]. Mocking has done nothing to the fandoms that consist of this.
******* Alright, how about this: Edward Cullen's behaviour has been repeatedly labelled as 'abusive' and 'sexist' by many experts. Just because there are people with... the inclination to ignore the most problematic parts of Twilight it doesn't mean the problem is not there. Similarly, Kurt acted in a extremely clingy manner that bordered on being outright stalkerish.
******** No one is refutting either of those points. I(at least) was pointed out the double standar and how the fandom would react different(Sill broken base, but for different reasons) if the stalkering happened between a boy and a girl, and if the stalked one returned the feelings.
**** I (random other troper who was involved in a different part of the discussion) am calling Kurt a stalker, I'm just not calling him a villain. On the other hand, if Finn were "Finnessa", aside from likely having addes or responded to the "What is up with Finnessa's name?" JBM, ''I would be calling Kurt a stalker'' (and probably comparing Kurt to Puck). Just because you've got a few people who are part of a MisaimedFandom (or a lot of people who are fans of a Misaimed Canon) doesn't mean [[DoubleStandard that]]'s what the majority think.
***** That's why it should be "Fiona"... but nevertheles, the DoubleStandard is, sadly, more standar than it should be, and highly depends on the gender of the people involved ''and'' how the relationship works. If Kurt/Fiona and Courtney/Finn will get a positive review if they end up as a couple, regardless of how they came to be. If they don't, it will be more neutral (Some people will call Kurt/Courtney a stalker, some will say Finn/Fiona is a dumb brick for not realizing how much the other loved her/him). Kurt/Finn is doomed from the start. He doesn't reciprocate, Kurt's a stalker. He reciprocates, Kurt "converted" Finn to "gay-sm".
** Kurt ''knows'' Finn is straight. He ''knows'' he has no chance with Finn. He said so himself in the (much) earlier episode where he convinces Rachel to get a ridiculous makeover to win him over, and then tearfully admits that neither of them have any chance with Finn. The idea that Finn's behavior could in any way be read as "leading Kurt on" is ridiculous.
*** So far, the only thing that Finn had told him with respect of his crush on him was that he was ''flattered'' And that he already had a date for the prom, which Kurt could have interpreted as "otherwise i would go with you". He didn't rejected him, and has been consistently portrayed as acting rather nice to Kurt(something even more than how he treats Rachel or the other girls), which isn't bad on itself, but considering how the others tended to treat Kurt... he ''might'' have interpreted "being nice" as "leading on". This incident was, in fact the first time Finn expressed he was uncomfortable with him. It's also worth nothing that the previous stances of "stalkery" of the show had been played for laughs(Rachel and the Pepper girl on Will, Jacob with Rachel), or don't get the change to become too creepy, because they win, or get sidetracked (Rachel with Finn, Puck with Rachel and Mercedes), basically, all "straight" ones.
* The trouble with this whole situation is that the writers wanted to get across the message that using that word, no matter what the context, is just as horrible and as damaging as any other slur. The scene did its job in this respect but it also sucked in some of all three parties' brain power as well - not a lot, but just enough to make it all blow up in their faces.
* Putting in my 2 cents here. I think that the entire situation is kind of caused by a vicious cycle. Kurt at the beginning of the episode is definitely edging into StalkerWithACrush territory, no question about that. The problem is that when Finn talks to him, and later lashes out, it seems to Kurt like he's criticizing Kurt's ''personality'' as opposed to Kurt's ''behavior''. Kurt then becomes very confused, but doesn't end up changing his behavior because Finn doesn't make it clear that he's uncomfortable with Kurt StalkerWithACrush tendencies, but is fine with Kurt's flamboyant personality. This causes a vicious cycle until Finn at the end of the episode makes his point clearly.
* Kurt and his victimhood with regard to his sexuality are dominating the entire show, with episode after episode focusing on it. Mercedes, Artie and Tina have yet to get long-lasting main storylines of their own, and their development is suffering for the sake of Kurt, I feel.
** The really annoying thing is that putting such a big spotlight on Kurt just makes him less sympathetic, it`s like with watching horror movies, you see something enough you get desensitized to it... or resentful of it, another few episodes and I`ll be dissing the gays... and I came out 9 years ago (at 13).

[[/folder]]
[[folder: Quinn]]
!!QUINN.
She has both Puck and Finn after her. She appears to be good friends with everyone in the Glee club. Although she cheated on her boyfriend and got pregnant, she milks the sympathy her friends give her for all its worth, not once thinking to TELL Finn, instead taking Puck out for a "test drive" to see if he would make a better father...?

I may be the only one, but I literally see nothing nice about her characterization or the way she behaves in accordance to others. Out of everyone it seems she has had the least character development- i can see they've "put her through alot" but through all of it she has just appeared to be incredibly self-centered, rude and a nasty piece of work. I don't get why people in the show like her, or why people give people like Rachel, Finn, Kurt etc abuse but fail to acknowledge that Quinn is probably the worst character when it comes to manipulation.
* "Least character development" is definitely an overstatement. [[{{TwoWords}} One word:]] ''Mercedes''.
* The worst part is that if she had simply told Finn the truth in the beginning (that she cheated on him with Puck while they were both drunk) He is such a nice guy he probably would have forgiven both of them and supported her anyway. Now however the only option seems to be either keep him in the dark forever or have him sever all ties with both Quinn and Puck once he finds out the truth. Finn has been shown to be extremely uncomfortatble with lying, he hated lying about Quinn not being pregnant, he hated lying to his mother, lying to their friends, he even hated lying to the Fabray's who he barely even knew. Since day one he has been completely miserable in the deception, only finding any sort of relief once the truth was out in the open and he no longer had to decieve anyone. They seem to be setting him up for a case of BewareTheNiceOnes because nothing good can come from his finding out just how much he's been played for a sucker.
* Well said, what also bothers me, is like... the Glee Club is supporting they so much that when the truth is revealed I feel it is going to split the almost-nakama. Also, I actually can imagine a reason (not a very justified one of course), for Quinn lie to Finn, well. She is VERY afraid that people would find out and while Finn might be a nice guy, Quinn was probably afraid that he wouldn't be able to keep it quiet, specially after her baby bump showed up, people would make question, and I doubt that even Finn would agree tosay that the baby is his.
* What I don't understand is that Quinn is so much more well-liked than Terri when, let's face it, what they're doing is pretty similar. True, she's going through a lot with the pregnancy and she's not a DumbBlonde, but why is her character so sympathetic? Rachel gets a lot of hate for being annoying, but she's not lying to everyone while feeling no remorse for her actions.
** Quinn is a terrified teenager who has everything to lose and nothing to gain by telling the truth. Terri, on the other hand, is a grown woman deceiving her husband for no good reason.
** This doesn't change the fact that Quinn betrayed Finn, and shows no real signs of guilt; only self-pity. If she weren't pregnant, she'd still be bullying the other kids around, too. Plus, she's messing both Finn and Puck around by giving them both false hopes of happy fatherhood. Terri, in my opinion, is far more sympathetic. Although she's annoying, Terri isn't really a horrible person, just self-centred. She's faking a pregnancy because she doesn't want to lose her husband, and it seems as though she really wants to be a mother. Her attitude towards Quinn- coldly refusing to pay for her pregancy expenses- is probably partly routed in a deep jealousy that a high school girl is pregnant with an unwanted baby.
*** My problem with Terri is that she is self-centered to a truly ridiculous degree (in the first or second episode she complains about having to work three days a week for four hours a day, and then have to come home and cook dinner because Will is working late). She shows very little sympathy at all for Will's problems, and the few times she does almost come off as more of her feeling sorry for herself. Quinn has her own troubles, but her PetTheDog moments actually seem genuine to me, while Terri's never seem to be benefiting anyone (including the man she says she loves) but herself.
** A part of it is also Dianna Agron's acting, which in my personal opinion is some of the best on the show. I can't blame anybody in the slightest for disliking her though, she has some very clear faults as shown above.
* Finn found out. He didn't take it well. Expect this to be a big plot point in the rest of season one.
** I thought the episodes in April is the continuation of season one? But also, ouch, poor Finn.
* In the pre-hiatus finale, when Rachel finally suspects that Puck is the father, she fools Quinn into spelling it out for her by mentioning the issue of genetic diseases potentially being passed down by a Jewish father- Quinn's motivation for getting Puck tested is that she's worried Terri won't still take the baby. Has the rest of the Glee club not yet worked out that Schue knows Terri faked her pregnancy? Finn, for one, clearly knows. Why would Quinn still expect Terri to take the child?
** Because Quinn can give up the baby for adoption at an orphanage? And it'll be much harder for a baby with a genetic disease to get adopted by parents?
*** Would make sense except she specifically names Terri.
**** Yeah well Will didn't leave Terri YET.
**** Yes he did.
**** Well, I thought he left her before Emma's wedding, right? Well I didn't see "Mattress" yet (although I saw Sectionals) so I'm not sure.
* What ThisTroper doesn't understand is that no one gets on Quinn's case for sleeping with Puck. Everyone seems to take the anti-Puck side immediately without considering, like another troper mentioned, "it takes two to cheat". While WE know that Puck "got [her] drunk on wine coolers", and that makes it sorta-kinda justifiable, none of the other Glee club members know this! All they know is that Puck is the father, but and no one seems to think less of Quinn; Mercedes even defends Quinn against Puck.
** Just because we never see Quinn telling people that she was drunk at the time that doesn't mean she didn't. The writers don't have the time to show every single conversation that the characters have with one another.
** Part of it may be that Puck has a reputation as a bad boy, a womanizer, and what have you as well as being fairly lackadaisical about commitments. Both may have been the bad guy but Puck was just the bigger bad guy at the moment.
* Ever since Quinn's taken up her role as "the pregnant girl," she can do no wrong. In the most recent episodes, she's been the maternal adviser, smiling beatifically while helping everyone else with their problem of the week. Sure, they wrote her into the GList plot, but why has she had such a whiplash of an attitude change? Even when she was telling off Sue, she was still at least snarky.
[[/folder]]

!!Do the Glee Club Kids ever talk to each other outside the club?
I just found Kurt comment about Quinn talking to him "for the first time" too odd, but somehow, too true, can we really say that they are a Nakama if no one communicates?
* Well, the original six certainly seem to. Quinn was a late addition that didn't bother to make friends with the glee club kids until AFTER she was kicked out of the Cheerios.
* They have been seen hanging out together outside of the club, but the popular group still doesn't seem to hang out with the unpopular group outside the club. (Meaning Tina, Artie, Kurt, Mercedes and sometimes Rachel will hang out together, and Quinn, Santana, Mike, Matt, and Puck usually keep to their own group. Finn and Brittany are probably the only ones who are seen in both groups.) And I wouldn't expect Kurt and Quinn to be too chummy anyway, since he's considered a loser and, judging from the glare he gave her in "Ballad", he doesn't like her too much.
* This annoys me because the show is supposed to be about a group of misfits yet with the exception of Rachel and sometimes Kurt, almost every episode focuses on the popular kids (who actually outnumber the misfits 7-6 if you still count Quinn as popular)
** See below. Most of the popular kids in the glee club are now unpopular. At least Quinn, Finn, and Puck all are, and their friends' popularity may have fallen as well.
* Well, perhaps not originally but as of 'Sectionals', they seem to. Everyone but the football players, Quinn, and Rachel end up on a group call and talk rather casually among themselves. Brittany not withstanding but she's always pretty naively candid. :)

!!The Women
Pretty much every guy on this show is a nice, happy-go-lucky type of guy (except maybe Sandy, but even Puck is sort of sympathetic here!) but all the women? Well we have our main villains (Sue, Terri, Kendra), Tina, who has been lying about a disability to get special treatment for years, and girls who could be likable but just come off as spoiled brats (Rachel, Quinn, Mercedes, Emma). And then there's Brittany and Santana who one episode are laughing and dancing with the glee kids, the next are treating all of them (their friend Quinn included) like they're not fit to lick their shoes.
* "Pretty much every guy on this show is a nice, happy-go-lucky type of guy"? Really? Finn is an incredibly nice guy for the most part, but he has still done some pretty selfish things, like abandoning Rachel in "Mattress." Not to mention cheating on his girlfriend twice with Rachel. One of those times he only did it in order to manipulate Rachel into coming back to glee club. But I'm sure his pregnant girlfriend would not have appreciated that very much. Also, he's a complete moron. Will isn't much smarter and he's terribly oblivious. Puck is a womanizing jerk. Kurt set Rachel up to be humiliated just because he found out she had a crush on the same guy as him. Coach Ken tried to sabotage Glee just to get back at Will. Sandy is a drug-dealing, closeted diva. All of the football players who aren't in Glee seem to be homophobic Neanderthals. Even Artie has had a couple of moments where he could have been nicer. Yes, most of these characters have at least some redeeming qualities, but so do most of the female characters you mentioned. I really don't see any gender bias here.
** Let's not start insulting Neanderthals now.
** Plus they had an entire episode (The Power of Madonna) that focused on the fact that the guys were treating the girls like crap.
* All women are freaking crazy. All men are really dumb. (Brittany and Sandy play for the other team.)
** And some have gotten better. Quinn, notably, is pretty much a sweetheart.

!!Stop pretending Glee is still at the bottom of the food chain!
* Seriously, this retroactive use of StatusQuoIsGod is starting to get on my nerves. New Directions has recruited, along with the so-called "misfits", the most popular kids in the school, namely the top Cheerios and the football stars. And yet rather than improve Glee's standing, the popular kids get treated (inconsistently, I might add), as new-found losers. The above entry on "the women" even points out said inconsistency. One episode Brittany and Santana are part of the group, and are "with the losers" during the Slushi episode, the very next episodes they're at the top of the pyramid looking down at the Glee kids they're "not really a part of". Not only doesn't this make sense, not only does it screw with continuity, but it completely contradicts the show's message for the sake of artificially preserving drama. It makes it seem there is something "objectively uncool" about Glee Club that sucks "coolness" away like a black hole and makes the popular kids become unpopular...that's a complete contradiction of the show's intended Aesop. Seriously, they're afraid to get a yearbook picture because it will be defaced? Even though the club includes Puck, Mike, Brittany, Santana, Quinn, etc.? UnfortunateImplications aside from them ''needing'' the popular kids in order to be respected, it's still inconsistent that it doesn't even have an affect.
** Oh yeah, like High School popularity isn't wildly inconsistent in ''real'' life.
*** I never said it wasn't. Just that recruiting all the popular kids should have some measurable effect on the club's "standing", and only hasn't because them gaining any ground would upset the status quo. I mean, the "Push It" performance alone should have changed things, getting a wild standing ovation from the ''entire student body''. And yet they're still treated as the bottom of the pyramid because they do music.
**** This might be an example of TruthInTelevison. At this troper's school, the school One-Act play is treated the same way that Show Choir is treated on the show. Granted, we haven't placed at competition in about 5 years, but still. For some odd reason, the musical is praised, but the one-act (which has a ''much'' lower budget. Seriously, we're forced to do public domain plays because the school won't give us the money to do anything else) is seen as "dorky" and "lame". Almost makes me hate the musical fad, and I'm a theater geek!
*** When the popular kids joined glee club they didn't bring the club up, they brought themselves down. That should be painfully obvious.
**** You're right, it is, which is exactly why I spent time ''mentioning'' it in how inconsistent things are. I know it brought them down, that's why I said it was ridiculous to treat it as a "black hole that sucks coolness away", showing the popular kids as now unpopular, but making them "popular" again whenever the plot calls for it.
*** The popular kids are officially dethroned in "Mash-Up", there are plenty of scenes where the football players in glee are harassed by the other players, and in "Wheels" they couldn't sell any cupcakes at first even though, as Puck mentions, before glee he could have sold plenty of cupcakes "on fear alone". Their unpopular status is actually pretty consistent.
** This troper just has problems with that the Glee Club is at the bottom of the food chain in the first place-- at her HS (which, no, was not a performing arts school), the show kids were ''easily'' at the top of the food chain for being, you know, ''talented'' and stuff. Now, the Glee kids are a lot more ''obnoxious'', but like the above troper said, the club is objectively the uncool thing.
** But the rest of the school doesn't give a damn about the glee club's talent. All they see is the gay kid, the fat girl, the cripple, the weird Asian girl who stutters and that really annoying one. The fact that football players and cheerleaders not only JOIN the club with all those freaks is just weird itself, there MUST be something wrong with them too so now they're free targets.
** What makes it worse, according to Will "Glee Club used to rule this place", that was around 1993, and the yearbook photos show that in 1999 (I think) the Glee Club was already down (if not in the bottom) of the food chain, how they could fall that hard in just a few years?
*** Six years is a lifetime in high school terms. Everyone Will went to school with would have graduated by 1999, unless they got held back multiple times.
** Also, you'd think having Will as the adviser to the club would do quite a bit for their image. There is no way he isn't one of the most popular teachers in that school, especially with the girls.
*** Just because the teacher in charge of the club is cute and cool that doesn't mean the kids aren't still dorks to be picked on.
**** Exactly. This troper is part of the Comic Book Club, which is run by one of the most popular teachers, but because the club itself is considered geeky it's hard to generate intrest. Same logic explains what the show choir isn't more popular.
* Additionally, after singing "Push It" the school cheered the Glee club, that may not make them popular, but still it should have meant an improvement.
* This troper thinks it's a case of YouSuck.
* The answer why the Glee Club is at the bottom is simple. That's how Sue C's it. Would you dare say anything otherwise?
* Really, all we hear about/see is Football Players/Cheerios (and the coaches associated with each) making fun of Glee, and the former Football players and Cheerios bemoaning that they are no longer friends with those people. For all we know, the rest of the school thinks Glee is fine, but the Football players and Cheerios make the Gleeks lives miserable enough that it doesn't matter.
* I would like to add, how come the crowds of students go wild when New Directions perform? For example, Toxic. Yet they're still apparently the bottom of the food chain?
!!They live in Ohio, right?
* Where's the snow? Assuming that the show is in December they should be getting snow, or at least cold weather by now. And even if its not, the show is at least into October/November and they wouldn't be wearing shorts/short skirts anymore.
** It's filmed in California, by Californians who don't think about that kind of thing. Seriously, though, the Glee time line is progressing VERY slowly compared to the real world. Sectionals hasn't happened yet, which it definitely would have by December (which is halfway through the school year). I'm starting to wonder if they'll get to Nationals this season.
*** This troper lives 12 miles from Ohio and an hour from Lima. After the second week in November, short sleeves and short pants are only for the hardy and the foolish.
*** How do you figure? I wasn't in choir when I was in high school, but virtually all the vocal music competitions our school's show choir performed in were in the spring and those were all small competitions on the scale of sectionals. A national high school choir competition might very well take place in the summer, although I wouldn't be surprised if Season 1 only goes through regionals.
** Double up on the California bit - if the writers are native, snow might be this mythical thing they hear about from people in Boston and see in movies. It's entirely possible for some people to never even have seen snow. Even this native New Englander, after living in Phoenix for a few years, ends up getting caught off guard whenever flying home into a snow storm. Besides, fake snow is pretty fake-y looking.
*** It Just Bugs this (Northern) California Troper that the "lol no snow in CA" keeps getting brought up. Sure there's snow: in the mountains! Just about every college student here takes the weekend in January to go skiing/snowboarding.
*** Yes, but here's a difference between seeing the manufactured 3 inches of well-taken care of snow at a ski slope and 3 inches falling from the sky and accumulating on the ground. We're not saying that lulz Cali's are warm, we're saying that they (generally) don't have the experience to handle a natural snow fall or visualized what it might be like. Or in general, just act differently due to habit and acclimation. What might be unbearably cold for a warm weather state (say... 60 degrees) is probably still shorts and t-shirt weather for a cold weather state. And vice versa (120 degrees for a warm weather state is different for those from a cold weather state).
** ThisTroper happens to live in Ohio about an hour and a half away from their town, Lima. It hasn't snowed here yet and it usually doesn't until late December, sometimes after Christmas. Also many people are still wearing skirts and the like....including ThisTroper.
** There's also the fact that it is very, very hard and expensive to shoot in cold weather, let alone snow. The Canadian show "Trailer Park Boys" was shot in Nova Scotia and fans constantly complained that there was no snow in November, but it just wasn't in the budget to shoot in the winter. And then when they did shoot in winter for a Christmas episode, there was no snow and they had to bring in fake stuff! "Corner Gas" frequently had the same issues. Hence, it's rare to see anything but establishing shots of winter wonderlands in television shows.
** We in Ohio have a saying about the weather; "Don't like it? Just wait a few minutes" as the weather is odd, to say the least (any one else remember that 60F day in Decemeber maybe ten years ago?)
* In addition to the weather aspect, though [[InformedAttribute everyone says]] it's an impoverished backwater that they want to get out of, everyone seems to lead an upper-middle-class lifestyle; they've got the money for top-tier arts programs and good school facilities (Figgins complains but we never actually see any budget cuts except for the Cheerios, and that doesn't have any effect except to make Sue complain), many of the kids seem to have a lot of disposable income, and even the poor families don't seem to go without much.
** "Impoverished backwater" is stretching it a bit. The gloominess of life in Lima seems to revolve more around the fact that people never really escape it or become anything special, not the fact that the people there are particularly poor. The director of the Jane Addams glee club characterizes the New Directions kids as "privileged" so they're probably not intended to be impoverished. As for the money for school programs - first of all, the glee club has had a lot of trouble getting the funding it needs, and secondly, there are a lot of abysmal rural/suburban Midwest schools that attempt to make up for a lack of academic prowess with top-notch extracurricular activities, particularly sports. The fact that Will can't speak Spanish very well and all but three of the Cheerios are failing suggests that this may be the case with [=McKinley=].
** Yeah, I always figured Lima was like my hometown. It was actually a pretty nice suburb, but that didn't stop me from complaining all of the time about how boring it was and escaping to a college on the other side of the country the first chance I got.
** If nothing else, it's Hollywood-ification. You have Rich, Middle-Class/Poor, and Slum. There's not a lot of room to show places that don't neatly fit into that.
*** Actually Lima is a very poor city w/ an unemployment rate that hasn't left the double digits for quite some time. It's also lost a significant portion of its population and businesses since the 1950's causing the tax base to erode. The show makes it appear to be much nicer than it is.
** It might not actually be a bad place, but coming from [[{{Tropers/Durandal}} a native Clevelander]], it's complete TruthInTelevision that people living in even the nicer parts of Ohio tend to define success as getting the hell out. It says something that the Great Lakes states refuse to export water to states with shortages, telling people to just move back here if they want it.
* Census data has Lima at about 70% white, 25% black, 2% Latino/a, and 0.5% Asian. [=McKinley=] seems to have more Latinos/as and Asians than black people, a demographic much more reminiscent of [[CaliforniaDoubling California.]]
** Without a lot more information, that data doesn't actually mean anything or correlate to anything relevant. Statistics are funny that way.
*** This troper lives a hour away from Lima and has been there many times. I would hazard a guess that the Black population is 5-10% higher than the census, the Latino poulation would be about 5% higher and the Asian population is negligible.
** Because schools ''never'' have differing demographics to the population at large...
** There would logically be ''some'' correlation, however. It's easy to believe Tina and Mike might be among a handful of Asian students, but there should be more black kids at the school than we've seen.
* The lack of pay to play being mentioned- a lot of Ohio schools have trouble getting funding because they use Levy taxes for it (which, by the way, is Unconstitutional, has been declared so twice by the Ohi supream court, but nothing's been done about it), and so students have to pay money that helps fund their extracuriclular At my school it was $100 per sport, and $100 for an entire year for theater, and that's light compared to some.
!!Brittany's last name?
* Every single character shown, even background characters like Howard Bamboo, have gotten a last name. Characters who show up for only one episode get a last name! Why is Brittany the only girl on the whole show with out one?
** Maybe she forgot it. The omission is very pointedly deliberate, considering that even the yearbook photo lists her name as "Brittany", no last name.
*** She is actually Sue's daughter with a EpilepticTree
**** But according to Sue she has neither a uterus nor an ovulation cycle. Unless... maybe Sue went to that special school in Thailand!
** If she were Sue's daughter, it'd stretch good writing to have no one realize that. Sue's sisters daughter, on the other hand...
*** [[{{Fridge Brilliance}} OH. MY.]] [[{{Made of Win}} GOD.]]
* I have a feeling that this won't be the last one of the things in this page that will solved by the end of the show.
* As of the episode "Britney/Brittany," Brittany's last name is Pierce. Her middle name is Susan though, so...


!!Racefail
* Only white folks get to have their own plots.
** Because Mercedes' infatuation with Kurt turned her lily white for the duration of an episode, I take it?
*** Mercedes' crush was merely fuel for Kurt's coming-out plot.
** And Tina during episode 9 was turned in a Nordic blond?
*** Artie/Tina was all about Artie and his disability.
** Personal addendum to above JBM: Only white folks get to have their own ''story arcs''.
** It's the middle of the first season and those arcs are almost wrapped up, give it time.
*** Yeah, Artie and Tina are supposed to get the spotlight again within the next few episodes, and Mercedes is slated to get a love interest in the second season.
*** Of course Matt gets to have a line in the season one finale. And in season two...gets replaced by another white guy with abs.
[[{{YMMV}} Then again you have to be aware a character named ]] [[{{SarcasmMode}} Matt actually exists.]]
!!Will's Day Job
* Mentioned in the main article, but Will's job as the Spanish teacher irritates me pretty bad. I know we don't see many of the instructors actually doing the jobs since the focus is on the glee club which presumably goes on after school, but the few times we see Will Schuester actually teaching his accent is ''so bad you guys''. JustBugsMe since I'm a Spanish major and spend most of my day working on perfecting my grammar and accent. I realize the actor probably doesn't speak Spanish, but he pretty blatantly sounds like he's reading. Grah.
** Most native Spanish speaker that this troper knows get really irritated with people who are going for their EdM in Spanish ed. That is because most Spanish teachers don't speak the language very well. This is a small town in Ohio. Don't pretend that they can get a good Spanish teacher.
*** Especially since education is actually a much lower priority than Cheerios, football, and Glee.

!!Will's response to the trophy
* He acts surprised, and the kids obviously didn't think he was expecting it, and yet, immediately after his shock, he talks about what the judges thought of them - which he wouldn't have known if he didn't already know they won.
** He obviously didn't saw it before that scene, even knowing the result, It still a great moment to finally see it.
** Given that he talked to Emma, Sue and the Principal between the competition and seeing the trophy, he was probably filled in about the details. He might not know the result if the Glee Club had asked them not to tell Will ("I have two gays Dads and you can bet that if you tell Mr Schu the result of the sectionals then the ACLU will..."). Otherwise, Rule of (Musi)Cool
!!The final dance
* I realize that the kids flipping their heads around was supposed to be a callback to Hairography, but the guys looked even stupider doing it than when they had the wigs on.
** That's kind of the point.


!!Autotune
Does the ridiculous amount of Autotune make anyone else want to chuck their television out the window? It's one thing to use it to correct pitch when it is off enough to bother listeners, but they do it to insane extents. Finn gets so much that I'm wondering if one of the upcoming episodes is going to reveal that he's a robot. This isn't too difficult for most people to hear too. It's noticable to my friends with no musical training whatsoever (check the recordings of Can't Fight This Feeling and No Air for examples of Autotune gone wrong). And please don't take this as a personal dislike for the casting of Finn. Monteith isn't as skilled a singer as any of the rest of the male cast, but he showed some promise in the two instances in the pilot where he can be heard sans-autotune. The pitch-correction actually makes it seem like he's completely tone-deaf and just lowers the level of personality that can express while singing.
* The really annoying bit is that the [[FanNickname Finnbot]] is [[InformedAbility supposed to have ultrasinging powers]], when he's basically made of autotune. Oh, and the fact that after every song, my father says "wow, they're so talented" when he just heard several minutes of Autotuning. ARGH.
* At least one of the more recent [=CDs=] (I haven't heard the others) uses little or no Autotune. They may have used some pitch correction, but it would have been properly done since it was little enough not to be recognizable as such where it was noticeable during the show.
* This is my least favorite part of the show. Not only does it totally eliminate the need for the club to rehearse--ever-- since every song they do they are immediately singing in Autotuned perfection, but it totally devalues the actual talent of many of the performers. Having seen several of them when they were on Broadway, I can attest that they sound far better when their voices are...theirs. I hate the Autotuned sound. I wish they'd drop it--musical episodes of other pre-Autotune shows are wonderful despite usually being full of untrained vocalists, so I can only imagine how awesome this group would be (well, maybe not Finn) in their natural glory.

!!The Cast Recordings
Some of my favorite numbers are missing, including the two mash-ups from "Vitamin D", Quinn's rendition of "Papa Don't Preach", and the two Vocal Adrenaline numbers. However, Volume 2 includes Rachel's cover of "Crush", which only played for a few seconds during "Ballad", and Mercedes singing "Don't Make Me Over", which I don't remember being on the show at all. Who decided on this play list, and what logic were they following?
* Sadly, the logic of business. Each song sold separately on iTunes makes $1.29. The album only makes around 76 cents a song. You'll be more inclined to buy "Crush" and "Don't Make Me Over" as part of an album, but the other songs you mentioned are good enough to buy separately, making more money.
** But I don't own an iPod. If I did, I wouldn't be buying the CD at all!
*** You do realize you can burn songs off iTunes to a CD, right?
*** Um... you can download them from Amazon too
** Plus I ''know'' DigitalPiracyIsEvil and all, but it's an option.


!!Friendship
Not a single character on the show has a platonic friendship without there being some kind of sexual or romantic component. Mercedes was attracted to Kurt, Will's boy band weren't really his friends, and even Brittany and Santana are in a sexual relationship. That's fine for some characters, but it's a bit weird for everyone.
* Mercedes and Tina are really good friends, and I think Matt and Mike (aka Shaft and Other Asian) are buddies as well. The writers just don't focus on any platonic friendships because they don't have as much potential for drama.
* If you watch Sectionals there's quite a lot of nods towards friendship in the background. Matt and Mercedes was one I saw, can't remember the others but they're in there - just not as prominently as romantic relationships
* And in "Wheels" Quinn calls Artie her friend when Puck tries to give her the bake sale money.
* It's a high school drama.
* Tina and Kurt seem to have a friendship going on, and maybe it's wishful thinking but I can almost see some with Brittany and Kurt too?
* Quinn and Mercedes seem to be good friends too now.
* If you watch a lot of the numbers, actually, you notice a lot of friendship moments. In Mercedes' Cheerio's solo, you'll see Santana coming up and holding hands with her, for instance. As one of the above comments said, they're friends and all but drama is what gets people to watch TV. And, one supposes, it can be debated how much of this is character or the actors just getting into the music and their real-life friendship.
* OK, I know this has been said about a thousand times already on this page but: They. Are. In. High. School. When I was in high school most of the people I knew found it physically impossible to have a platonic relationship with someone of the opposite sex (or in the case of gay kids, of the same sex). I know that when I was sixteen and a cute boy said hello to me as we entered school I'd have our children's names picked out by the end of first period. Having stupid crushes is practically a mandatory high school extracurricular activity.
* As for Brittany and Santana, though they're having sex, it's also shown that they are genuine friends and spend as much time together for the sake of each other's company as for the sex.

!!Jonathan Groff as Vocal Adrenaline lead singer for the next few episodes.
This troper is conflicted at the idea that he will be a possible love interest for Rachel: are they turning her into a {{Relationship Sue}} and stealing a good plot from Kurt (who everyone wanted and guessed this would happen to)... or are the writers actually doing something different by ''not'' making him Kurt's love interest, which is what we all ''expected''?
* Kurt will be getting a boyfriend in Season Two, and rumor has it the lucky guy is [[spoiler: on the football team]]. I guess they're trying to make up for [[CampGay Kurt]] and [[TransparentCloset Sandy]] being such stereotypes by making the next gay character [[StraightGay as far from stereotypical as possible.]]
** How do you know that?
*** I went to the TelevisionWithoutPity forums and found the ''Glee'' spoilers thread. It's not that hard to find spoilers for any reasonably popular TV show these days. You can find the ones in question [[http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2010/01/18/exclusive-glee-spoilers-rachel-puck/ here]] and [[http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2010/01/21/ask-ausiello-spoilers-lost-glee-bones/ here]].
** There is one canon homosexual relationship already: Santana and Brittany, both of whom are very much not stereotypically "real lesbians" ("porn lesbians" is debatable). Whether they personally identify as bi, lesbian, questioning, or queer of another color is unclear (and will probably never be addressed), but they are having sex together.
*** We don't actually know whether or not Santana and Brittany are actually dating. Brittany said that she and Santana were dating, but she never specified whether or not they were dating each other. It's entirely possible she just meant that they were both having casual sex with different people and wasn't smart enough to realize what she actually said.
*** Actually the Brittany and Santana thing is referenced during the last episode of the first half of season one. Santana is saying that having sex does not equal a relationship (on the topic of her and Puck's sexting. Que Brittany saying "yea because if sex meant a relationship Santana and I would be dating!", An awkward silence follows.
*** And while Kurt was singing his little love song or whatever in episode 16, Santana and Brittany look at each other sweetly, hold eachother's pinkies and rest their heads against eachother. Combined with them walking around the halls together holding hands all the time, and their three-way date with Finn was more just a date with the two of them while Finn watches... Yeah, they're canon.
** One interpretation is that they're emotionally and sexually involved with each other but only sexually involved with other people. For them, sex is a fun act with no real emotional attachment (see Santana after having sex with Finn). It could also be seen as sort of a play on the stereotypical guy attitude - sex is fun (and you have a smoke or a burger after sex) but meaningless and it's the emotional aspect that's important.


!! The slushie-ing of certain characters
Rule of Drama and all, I can get that is necessary to the story the downfall of some characters and it allows for some Development, but really, becoming part of Glee Club seems to not only make you unpopular, but also unable(Or unwilling) to fight back.
I can understand why Artie, Kurt, Tina, Rachel and Mercedes are too weak to fight back, and would get it worse. But what aout Finn? He barely complained to that other guy, while he has traded blows with Puck for less than that. Puck is the same, he takes no shit for anyone, yet lets himself be slushied. We don't know much about Matt and Other Asian personality, but they can also defend themselves. The Cheerios is a particular case. They might not be able to fight back by themselves, but would you risk slushie-ing a cheerio when Sue Sylvester might catch you?
And don't get me started on the getting defaced thing. They should pay with the same coin, as they 'know' who hates them.
* Because they're embarrassed/ashamed to be in Glee club. They enjoy it and want to stay but at the same time have spent their highschool careers under the impression that "Gleeks" get their picture destroyed and slushied in the hallway. To quote a godawful musical set in a highschool other than Glee "Stick to the Status Quo"
* For me, the whole slushie-ing business is too over the top, and extends way past Rule of Drama and breaks my suspension of disbelief (which is sort of tenuous as it is...). Granted, everything in this show is supposed to be over the top, but I know for a fact in almost any high school in the area I'm from the people doing the slushie-ing would have been suspended long ago.
* This bothers me ; the people in the hallway not only have slushies all the time, IN school, but splash them on people?! They wasted a perfectly good drink, and I for one would hate to give a slushie up to humiliate someone. Where do they get the money for all of it? Are they just all rich and slushie-hating?

!! Finn's actor
Now, I'm not here to complain about Cory Monteith; he's a good singer, when he's not autotuned into a robot. But Kevin [=McHale=], Chris Colfer and Mark Salling are all clearly better than him, so why oh why was Cory cast in the lead male role? Sure, Artie and Kurt don't exactly look like jocks, but there's no reason that, say, Puck and Finn couldn't switch actors. Yet the weakest singer was cast in the most prominent role, resulting in his voice being constantly overpowered by the lead female singer. It just baffles me.
* Because the casting people valued more than just the quality of his singing voice? And because on some level he's supposed to be a weaker singer?
** Since when is he supposed to be a weaker singer? Finn is presented as being the [[InformedAbility most talented male singer in the club]]. That's why he's given the male lead in so many songs.
*** Finn is presented as being ''considered'' the most talented male singer in the club because he reminds Schuester of himself in highschool, and because he represents what those in power within the club think the male lead ''should'' be - physically attractive, ablebodied, white, straight, charismatic. He looks like the guy that Schue wants headlining his glee club and that Rachel wants to be seen standing next to, so they turn a blind eye to the fact that his singing is mediocre.
**** Sadly, I think that's more a subconcious effort on the part of the writers rather than intentional. I think they are uplifting Finn for being all those things, and don't realize it. The writers have tried to represent minorities but haven't been able to look outside their own privileged point of view. This is probably why Kurt's story is the most successful, because they do have the point of view of someone whose actually gay. However, their portrayal of people of color, people with disabilities, and women is general is how a person who has never been in any of those positions ''thinks'' those groups feel and act, rather than offering any true perspective. It is possible to write outside your own experiences, but these writers have not shown to be up to the task. For example, if they had done any research at all, they would know that in real life Artie's chair wouldn't even have handles that allow people to push him around like a prop, and he would have figured out ways get himself in and out of the auditorium up stairs and steep ramps by himself because he would be used to obstacles like that in everyday life. And he wouldn't be lifting tiny weights in the weight room.

[[WMG:The competition rules in "Mattress"]]
New Directions is disqualified for accepting the mattresses. They can't return them because Will used one. So why doesn't Will ''pay'' for that mattress, and return all the other ones?
* Someone might remember the Will-Figgins-Sue conversation a little better, but I think Will tried to make that exact suggestion (I'll pay for the used one!) only to have Figgins cut him off with something that sounded conclusive. A lot of amateur athletic associations do have scary strict rules regarding competitive eligibility, ''vis a vis'' endorsements and other commercial enterprises. So I suppose on some level I can buy what happened. I don't buy that it would happen identically in the real world, but insofar as it doesn't set off my complete bullshit alarm, I can accept it as a dramatic device.
** Will suggested to return ''all'' the mattresses. Since one was used, it couldn't be returned. So why can't you just pay for the one mattress you've used, and return the other mattresses?
Also, why does being disqualified from competition prevent Will from actually seeing the show as an audience member?
** It may not have, but with all the various red tape that's been involved for the rule books, he may have decided not to run the risk of someone deciding his very appearance there would disqualify the group. Besides, from the story perspective, he needed to be at [=McKinley=] to give Finn the inspiration for the last minute save and let him borrow his car.

[[WMG:The Guest Stars]]
I am starting to get really sick of reading that some other music star is going to be on Glee. I like this show, a lot actually, and I like a good deal of the characters. However a whole bunch of them are really underdeveloped and instead of using the back 9 to focus on them, they're jam packing it with more celebrities and more songs. This isn't ''American Idol'', where you can have some Grammy winner sing for 5 minutes to fill time, there's a plot going on here. And I am only worried in the first place because the episode that revolved around a guest star last season (The Rhodes Not Taken) was complete filler just because they got a big name and it put a hault to all the plots.
* Well... "the Rhodes Not Taken" also had some character development for Rachel, Will, Emma, etc.
* What world is it that Kristen Chenowith is a big name? I love her to death, but she is well-known in a tiny segment of the populous. Moreover, a segment that was by-and-large already watching the show.
** Uh, the world that is the target demographic? Musical, and theatre fans? She's kind of a household name amongst anyone that's ever picked up a play program.
** Kristin Chenoweth has also done a lot of roles on TV that viewers might recognize her from. She won an Emmy, for God's sake - someone must know who she is.

[[WMG:Instruments]]
How is that almost all the guys can play some musical instrument or other but none of the girls can? Artie's got guitar and bass, Puck's got guitar, Finn has drums, Kurt has piano. The jazz band is composed entirely of guys. Mike and Other Asian haven't show any skills yet but I'm sure they'll pull out a violin or something. But I haven't seen any displays of musicianship from the girls bar their voices.
* Guys working to develop skills that will get them chicks isn't a new thing (can't say about Kurt). Hell, it's probably why most musicians are male in the real world.
** Rachel has a keyboard in her room, presumably she knows how to use it.
* Duh. To set the stage for all the males to band together in a... band and woo their respective girls at some point in front of the rest of the school!

[[WMG: Finn worship]]
Finn's voice being the weakest has been addressed above but what bugs me is the MartyStu level of worship he gets "oh he's such a great leader we will never win ANYTHING without him" and he has the most main characters trying to get into his pants (Rachel, Kurt, Quinn and April Rhodes). And yes he's the quarterback, but he is the quarterback of Ohio's worst football team ever and as the leader, wouldn't that be seen as his fault? when it comes to popularity "points" Quinn as head Cheerleader would score higher in the couple, but the show doesn't treat it like that, she seems to be lucky to bag him. Besides in [=McKinley=] where the Cheerio's rule supreme, wouldn't the top male cheerio be the king of the school as Finn seems to be?
* Sadly, it's part of the UnfortunateImplications of the show that Glee wouldn't go anywhere without Finn, the popular and strong straight white guy (at least Rachel has the voice to back it up). Although we need to repeat that last part over again - "male cheerleader". I'm surprised there are any, and that they're not gettting slushied more than the Glee kids.
** Will used to be extremely popular and he was head male vocalist when Glee was in and he was popular for being top in a club that is now considered as outing yourself (ahh, homophobia). So why wouldn't the top male athletes be popular which would be male cheerio's!
** In addition, the Cheerio's are a National-level group of performers. In most schools that compete at that level, no matter how unusual or unmanly they are, being that good at a sport or activity tends to prevent bullying, if only because school staff would jump right to the rescue. As the troper above stated, Glee ruled the school when Will was part of it, when they were regularly taking National competition.
* While I wouldn't discuss Finn's voice talent, I would like to point out that his leadership qualities have been shown on several occasions on the show, besides being the quarterback. In the very first episode, the gleeks are fighting over some decisions, and not even Will can get them to work. Finn does it. In the ending, they are literally lost until he comes to the rescue. Besides, Puck is just as much straight, white and popular(like Quinn and Brittany) but I don't see no one complaining about them. Or Will, who has the same "qualities"
* This seems to be subverted in the fact that Finn doesn't want to become "The Hero". Everyone just makes him out to be.
* To be fair in regards to Finn's singing compared to others, he has the weakest voice in the males ON GLEE. It doesnt relate to the rest of the school, just the male characters in Glee club, i think. If Corey Monteith were seriously that bad he wouldn't have gotten the part, plus although i don't like Finn personally, I think Corey is like Pierce Brosnon in MamaMia, if he isn't straining too hard to get the power behind the notes and hit the right notes or if he is harmonized with someone other than Rachel, he sounds quite good. To Sir with Love, he sinqed fantastically with Mercedes, and Like a Prayer his leading into Kurt's part matched perfectly. So sure he isn't as strong vocally, but he has charisma to rouse the others into action, the personality, kind but dumb, to make those who aren't roused by the Speeches follow him, and has the social connections to make Puck sing... i think thats a win.
[[WMG: The Bullying]]
This one really, ''really'' bugs me - Figgins knows about all the crap that the Glee kids get from other students, SO WHY DOESN'T HE DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT? I know he couldn't stop it completely, but the least he could do is take away the Slushie machine and come down hard on any defaced yearbooks that he found.
* I thought the kids got the slushies from convinience stores and the like. Anyway, look at real life schools. A lot of them don't do anything about bullying. A few of them MIGHT talk to the bully, but that doesn't really do anything. One time in middle school my friend was confronting a girl who had been picking on me all year. The other girl bashed my friend's head against the locker, and the next day she returned, no suspension or anything. The first thing she did when she saw me was pick on me again. I think you get my point, I'm sure a lot of people can tell you of real-life bullying moments where nothing is done.
* Have we ever seen any of the kids actually report a bully to a teacher? It's kind of hard to put a stop to something when you don't even have the names of the people doing it.
** Good point, but it's not the students' attitude to bullying that bothers me, as I've had a lot of similar experiences, but the teachers'. At least when I was at school they paid a little lipservice to Anti-bullying, but the staff at [=McKinley=] seem to do nothing. It's like it doesn't happen at all. Surely the cleaners or other teachers notice the pornographic depictions of students in the bathrooms?
* As someone who was bullied right through until the end of year 12, it doesn't matter how often you complain or what actually happened, the most punishment meted out is a slap on the wrist. Or you get accused of antagonising them, especially if you have teachers that oh so desire to be part of the 'cool'. So, there's nothing to say nobody has reported it, really.
* The glee students not fighting back bugs me. They have football players, Kurts ball-launching Kick, and Santana. Let`s not forget they also have a soundproof room, a thief (Puck) who can steal Sues megaphone, and a diva (Mercedes) who can Belt a note through the megaphone that would deafen them. (Not to mention Rachel and Kurts dads who can sue the bullies and the school.) Bullies get away with everything, so why not pull a Dexter on them and fight slushy with slushy!
** It`s also been shown that the teachers can physically assault students, so why not get Shue to do so... instead of having him constantly stand there and impotently take the abuse himself.

[[WMG: Hell-O]]
It seems like a lot of the characters were... well out of character in that episode. There weren't many memorable songs, and the context of them was kind of shaky at times. There's still no mention of what Quinn's living arrangements are.
[[WMG: Traits from the beginning]]
Whatever happened to some of the character traits and stuff shown in the first few episodes? Like Finn's extreme ejaculation problem, or Pucks milf loving ways, and whatever happened with the celibacy club? Or... the fact that Will actually works as a Spanish Teacher?
** Finn hasn't had a lot of sex recently and Quinn presumably got kicked out of the celibacy club, what with the pregnancy and all. Puck's trying to be a one-woman man; I assume that'll collapse at some point. Will's actual job has pretty much been ignored and now plays no role in the series.
*** If you recall Finn had that problem BECAUSE he's never had sex and is constantly surrounded by hot girls. And Puck's hasn't been faithful to Quinn if you haven't forgot his flings with Santana, and the fact that Will is a spanish teacher's ignored completely is exactly why I brought it up.
*** Exactly how much time should we spend focusing on Finn's ejaculatory issues? Enough plotlines on that point and it gets more than a little creepy; they covered the "issue," it served its purpose, it's time to move on. Puck's thing with Santana came before he was actually "with" Quinn; she was still carrying on with the fatherhood lie and "trying out" Puck as a father figure. And you asked what happened to Will's role as a Spanish teacher. The writers happened: there's no reason to spend any time on Will's day job. We have other things to worry about now.
*** But it was a serious problem with him. He couldn't even kiss girls. They never showed him getting over this, it just stopped. Even just an idle handwave like being a parent has set his mind on other things would be better than NOTHING.
**** He can kiss girls, he kissed Quinn all the time. The problem was the fact that he got too turned on when he was making out with someone, which didn't happen between Sectionals and the Power of Madonna.
**** Turns into a Chekov's gun in the recent episode, so it wasn't completely forgotten.
[[WMG: How much time has passed between Sectionals and Hell-o!?!?!?!?]]
Some things made it seem like not long had passed (Rachel expecting them to be more popular now because of the win at sectionals), yet other things seemed to suggest it's been quite a while (like it now being Basketball season).
* Most schools have basketball starting a couple weeks after football season ends (less if the football team goes to districts or state) and since Finn said in Sectionals that football season was over, Hell-o probably takes place around 2-3 weeks later.
[[WMG: The Power of Madonna]]
* Finn: "Frankly, I need you. I'm tired of carrying the male vocals by myself."...what about Arnie,Kurt and Puck - each one of them having a far better voice than you, you goddamn asshole. No wonder that Mercedes and Kurt left for Cheerios and I'd absolutely love if they remained more-or-less permanent and the whole thing wasn't just Sue's ploy to divide them. Still, anyone else find Kurt's LampshadeHanging quite ironic given how honestly straight Finn delivered his line?
** He was throwing an olive branch to a kid he had previously greeted with outright hostility. It was his way of connecting to another singer, paying him a compliment and doing it in a light-hearted way.
** Also, just because the other guys have better voices certainly doesn't mean that they get all the lead parts. I'm pretty sure that's somewhere else on this page.
** Also, in a unintentional moment of brilliance by Finn, he could be verbally stepping aside (in Glee, in the love triangle) graciously for Jesse. That is to say, he's willing to share the spotlight and let others make their choices as they wish (Rachel's heart, Shue's decision to let Jesse join). So more than just a compliment and appeal to Jesse's ego, he's demonstrating the lesson of the episode - understanding.
* On another note: the feminism in this episode seems a bit over the top. It's a good message, but they're derailing and abusing male characters to get it across. It seems like a lot of shows lately are pushing gender equality while ignoring the fact that guys need to be respected too. Puck is represented as a bad guy for not wanting to sing about being a girl, which is pretty in character for him. It's not a bad thing to be a man. ([[AzuraRey This Troper ]] is female, BTW)
** "It's easy to be a dude"
*** Said by the white straight able-bodied jcok to his minority friends(Jewish, Asian and Black) and people who get discrimitated for other stuff(Wheelchair user, gay) this comes out as a VERY stupid thing to say. Not to mention the girls have been pretty bitchy all long too(Quinn cheated on Finn, Rachel has been trying to seduce him, both used Puck as a Finn substitute, Mercedes broke Kurt's windshield for not having her way, and Tina... faked her stutter.
** The only plotline in the episode that really bothered me was Artie's. That flashback seemed staggeringly out of character for one of the few genuinely decent people in the school.
** Artie didn't seem that out of character in the fact that we've barely even got a chance all season to even KNOW his character. All we've known about him till now is that he's in a wheel chair, dislikes people who pretend to stutter, and ... that's actually it. The only proof that he's a nice lovable guy was pretty much just us assuming that he is because he dresses like Mr. Rogers' dorky grandson.
*** And he seems to not always think before saying things that are kind of inappropriate (if funny) if "I still have the use of my penis" is anything to go by.
** I think it's more like he's just clueless and socially awkward. He was trying to be cool like Puck supposedly is and failed horribly.
** TPOM was 'awful', especially with the '''heavy''' handed message of feminism (especially when they gave a line about how women are payed less to 'Quinn', who seems to have no regret about having behaved as the worst female stereotype ever) and the completely ''bogus'' Tina/Artie subplot. Her reaction was especially horrificly written; I suppose they were going for empowered woman, but it clearly ended up being raving lunatic with a touch of AxCrazy and asylum escapee. Oh, and Sue basically becoming ruler of the school and playing Madonna songs loud over the loudspeakers? Not funny. Not. One. Bit. There was a bit of interest (the 'virgin' plot), but it resolved itself stereotypically. Yet people call it a CrowningMomentOfAwesome. Yeah, right... DethroningMomentOfSuck is more likely.
*** In this troper's opinion(and his friends), Tina's AxCrazy act was both ''awesome'' and ''funny''. It only needed her flipping Artie off.
**** ... Sorry, but I can't believe it. Those lines were just ''too stupid and embarrassing'' for ANYONE to find them funny other than 'ha ha ha look at how stupid that girl is being. I felt ''second hand embarrassment'' for the actors.

[[WMG: Jesse St. James]]
Jesse in general. If he really fell for Rachel, we'll end up with another spotlight stealer as if RachelxFinn wasn't enough of tumor yet. If he's still pretending and spying, where exactly are they going with that? Is he going to drop out of New Directions and ditch them for his old team when the time is right?
** Being a smug jackass doesn't help either.

[[WMG: Sue's blackmail]]
Anyone else getting a massive suspension of disbelief towards Sue's now apparent blackmail and her blatant abuse of power? She was quite relate-able back when she'd simply have a lot of influence on the school due to her charismatic personality and the success of her Cheerios, but now that she literally runs the school and demonstrates that by getting her ridiculous demands across, haven't they pretty much ran that trope into the ground?
** I thought it's awesome as usual.
** I find it helps to assume she has other, more incriminating photos than just the one she took on screen. I have to say, if all has is the one photo, then I think we might expect Figgins to roll the dice with his wife. "Yes, honey, I can see the photo. She's completely clothed. Remember that unbelievable sociopath I've been telling you about, the one I suspended? She drugged me and took that picture so she could blackmail me. Yes, I get that sounds stupid. But if we did anything wrong, wouldn't she have a more incriminating photo than that? Have I ever given you reason to believe that I'd cheat on you?"
** Yes, but if Sue has done something to get more incriminating photos than that, ''then she's essentially raped him''. So basically, she should be in jail right now, not getting her job back.
** Sue should probably be in jail for any number of reasons (blackmail itself is illegal), but that notwithstanding, I don't know that I buy the premise. She could have taken naked photos without any sexual contact being involved. Besides, all of this is irrelevant: the blackmail is basically a slightly more elaborate HandWave. We need Sue on the show and in the school, because she's awesome, but we ended the first half of the season with her suspension. How do we get her back in the driver's seat with a minimum of explanation? BLACKMAIL!
** It worked as a basic HandWave, but now not only she's abusing said handwave, but also openly taunting Schue over it and merely getting more witnesses to testify against her blackmail. Figgins hiring her back simply because 'she really is that good' would've been a bit more plausible.
** That's absolutely reasonable. But part of the problem when trying to criticize Glee is that it's a show that revels in the ridiculous. If the writing staff, when faced with the problem of getting Sue back on the show, is asked to choose between a reasonable solution and a ridiculous, over-the-top solution that allows Sue to do something unbelievable, it's going to choose the latter. Without hesitation.

[[WMG: Pendergast]]
* So our IntrepidReporter, a man who very nearly won a Pulitzer Prize (which he was ineligible for as a magazine writer, but whatever) for his investigative journalism, witnesses one Cheerios event and decides he has his story? A story, by the way, that he notes is precisely the opposite of the one he intended to write. Did he talk to ''anyone'' at the school? His interaction with the main subject of his story consisted of the length of Mercedes' song and a one-minute conversation in her office. JournalismDoesNotWorkThatWay.
** I just saw him as some newbie journalist who was lying about the Pulitzer prize (he didn't even know he was ineligible but it sounded good) who had no clue what he was doing. After all, how popular do you think that ''Splits!'' magazine really is? Either way, I thought this was the single best way that someone has stuck it to Sue so far.
** For the matter, much like everything else in the show, he kind of over-inflates everything. At any rate, one wonders if Sue's new image (as far as the wider world is concerned) will comeback later in the show as a Chekov's Magazine Article where she has to maintain her increased popularity.

[[WMG: Molly Shannon]]
* What was the point? I get that I'm bitching about guest stars again but ''seriously''. Let's get a talented comedienne that people recognize and give her 2 scenes and no jokes, especially in an episode that already had 2 special guest stars. She's slated to return soon so maybe it was just set up so she can play a bigger part later but when you do something like that you get a smaller actor to play the part so that we're genuinely surprised and interested when something juicy happens! WTHCastingAgency?!
** What exactly was bad about it? It was a small surprise cameo of a famous actor. Just like with Idina Menzel, and Olivia Newton John, and Kristen Chenowith and the other famous stars, it's just a fun guest appearance. It's not like she was stealing the spotlight or was a bad character. Is the fact that she appeared at all ''that'' bad?

[[WMG: Rachel whining about how unpopular she is.]]
Okay, it was believable in the first few episode when she got a slushie facial. But after she got almost all of the solos, dated [[spoiler: Puck, Finn, and Jesse]], and is being stalked by creepy Jacob Ben Isreal, I just don't buy it anymore. Sure, most of the other kids at her school act like she doesn't exist, but she is probably the best singer in Glee club, she's rich enough to afford ballet lessons, and has dated three of the main characters. Am I really supossed to buy that she thinks she's unpopular? If she wanted to, she could have all the other Glee club members clubbing each other to be her friends.
* Some of the things you mentioned are exactly why she IS unpopular. Because of her attitude, her general one-up-manship, and her never being satisfied, every one else can't stand her in the group. I believe she does want to be friends with the others, but she's spent her entire life trying to prove that she is the best at what she does, mostly by pointing out flaws in other people (see her conversation with Puck in episode 17). This is not the way to endear yourself with other people. [[spoiler: Puck and Finn have both taken nose dives in the social ladder, partially by dating her, and Jesse is the new kid at the school, and a lot like a male version of Rachel himself, so dating them wouldn't boost her popularity any]]. Besides, being talented at something does NOT guarantee popularity, especially if its something that most people in the school already think is uncool. Finally, how rich do you have to be to afford ballet classes? I didn't think it was for the rich and famous only.
** Not to mention the fact that one of her primary motivations is her desire to be popular... a desire which has not helped her ''at all''. Maybe the popular people see this desperate desire and think that she's pathetic. A vicious cycle perhaps?
** Probably spot on. One imagines that people would rather deal with a more likeable person with less character flaws but that's less talented versus someone who's talented... but a diva and poor team player.

!!Emma and Will
Okay, I'm a little confused on this one. I know that I'm supposed to see Will as being jerked up short for cheating on Emma. I do see that, and I know that what Will did was wrong. In other shows where this has happened, I've felt that the character on Emma's side of this was right unconditionally. But in this particular situation, I feel more sympathy for Will than I do for Emma. Do any other tropers feel this way? Have you managed to nail down why? Not knowing is what JustBugsMe in this situation.
* For Will to have cheated on Emma they would have to be dating, which, technically, they weren't. Not only did his encounters with Vocal Aldrenalin's coach not go anywhere Will and April didn't have sex. Will has made no commitment whatsoever to Emma and although they both feel he betrayed her trust in some way the fact of the matter is that he actually hasnt done anything wrong, which is why her public dressing down of him may evoke sympathy not for Emma, but for Will. He's made to feel bad about taking her advice and trying to figure out what he wants, not only from himself, but any relationship he might enter in to. He's doing exactly what a man (or woman) in his situation should do and is made out to be a villian for it.
* Plus, Sue was the one who goaded Emma to rant at him in the first place, so the whole thing is stained with Sue's anti-Will sentiment that instinctively gets us on his side.
* Will and Emma were ''clearly'' in a relationship at the time when he was making out with Shelby. She broke things off with him after that.
** Two dates does not make a relationship. Furthermore she kissed him, and he stopped it before things went any further because he was interested in pursuing a relationship with Emma.
*** Will ''told'' Shelby that he and Emma were in a relationship, and both he and Emma clearly felt that way. He even picked out a ''song'' for their relationship. If they were just being casual and had an "understanding" then he wouldn't have felt guilty about taking Shelby back to his place.
*** Will and Shelby were talking in the Carmel High auditorium, and then it cut to them making out back at Will's apartment. Even if Shelby did initiate the kiss, Will let it go on for a quite a while. And why did he bring her back to his place if he wasn't planning on doing anything?
* Emma got to know about Will's "infidelity"(he was claiming to wait for her, at least) from ''Sue''. This troper sided with Emma immediately.
** I agree. Emma was putting in a ''lot'' of work in her problems so that she'd be ready to be in a relationship with Will. And instead of helping her and being supportive, Will's been making out with Elphaba, experimenting with Glinda, and contemplating how he feels about his wife. Emma didn't even seem to cross his mind. The dick.
*** Really? How much work could she have been doing when the only therapist she saw was Sue Sylvester ''after'' Sue ''made'' herself Emma's "therapist." The only thing Will's guilty off is lack of expirience and poor judgement and doesn't deserve public humiliation for his relatively minor misstep (Will and Emma weren't even dating whe April spent the night, and Emma even couraged him to figure out what he wants and needs from a relationship, really the only way to do that is to date other people). Not telling Emma was probably the best thing he could do, look at how she reacted with Sue egging her on, who knows what would have happened if Will himself told her, don't forget that Emma is not entirely stable.
*** Emma said previously that she was seeing help. Just because a few episodes later Sue says she's decided to be Emma's helper that one day doesn't mean Emma never went to the proffesional like she said she was already doing. And if 'finding himself' could only be solved by him dating people, then ''why did they stop dating in the first place?''. They stopped dating because she didn't think he was ready to date people yet, while she was going to get help for her problems. Instead of listening to this and acting on her advice to examine himself and spend time alone for a while, he goes gallivanting off with every age appropriate woman.
* I felt for both of them. Will's a confused, stressed new divorcee who really has no idea how to handle being single because he's been with Terri for so damn long, and he's panicking. It's a [[TruthInTelevision pretty common reaction]] to divorce, even in people who value committment and would never normally cheat on a significant other (I ''know'' someone who had this kind of behaviour going on for a while and not only did she not fit the cheater profile, she broke it off with her husband because ''he'' was cheating on ''her''). That doesn't make what he's done to Emma any better, but it is understandable. He really isn't ready for a new relationship; Emma was walking into Ground Zero but, because she's never been in a relationship herself, she was too naive to know it was a bad, bad idea. Essentially she's been taking advantage of his various states of confusion for the entire Will/Emma plotline but earns sympathy anyway because she is a giant {{Woobie}} legitimately trying to overcome her many neuroses, and she was almost definitely not aware that she was taking advantage of anyone. It's a pretty grey situation and I don't think the show means for us to take the side of either character in particular.
* I can't be the only one bothered that Will only suggested Emma get help after she didn't have sex with him. And his face when she tells him she's a virgin. There was something about the kiss on the season finale that just didn't sit right with me. Maybe it was how angry he looked, or how he insisted she still loved him even though she was making attempts to move on, but it was the moment I stopped shipping them.
* At this point, Wills lesson of the day should just be a recording of himself labelled "don`t do this".

!!All the other Glee Club Members Parents?
* Where are they? So far we've only seen Mrs. Hudson, Mr. Hummel, the Fabrays, and a brief shot of Mrs. Puckerman, and they're only seen at their jobs and such. Why do we never see all the other Glee Club parents at competions? Why don't we see them back stage in between each performance, congradulating their children?
** Because there... hasn't been a reason to show them yet? Most performances we see on the show are during school hours anyway, and the scenes usually cut off right after the number finishes. Also, you missed some: we've seen Rachel's parents in her locker photo, too, in the first or second episode.

!!Run Joey Run
* So why exactly were Puck, Jesse, and Finn so upset about "Run Joey Run"? She used an artistic license for a music video. All that happened was that there were other guys ''in general'' in the video. No kissing, or hugging, just... being there. Kurt and Quinn danced together a few times when she dated Finn, no one freaked out about that. This doesn't seem to be very different. Using their logic they might as well have been furious at Sandy for shooting Rachel in the video.
** Because she lied to all three of them about the intent of the video, she told Puck it would help him get his reputation back, she probably told Jesse it was because he's her boyfriend and it would be fun and romantic, and most likely told Finn it was just for the Glee club project and she needed him because [[SarcasmMode he is just the best singer ever]]. All of this was a blatant lie, the true purpose behind the entire thing, as stated by Finn, was to make Rachel look better by enditing the video to make it look like she had three guys after her. If she had told them from the beginning that all three of them would be involved they would most likely be okay with it, but once again she went behind someone's back with her own agenda for the primary purpose of making herself look like some uber-diva. This is behavior she was supposed to have grown out of at sectionals.
*** But... even if that was the reason for the three guys... it really doesn't come out as "three guys wanting the girl" it's more like "the director couldn't decide which of the three was better and left the three"
*** But that's just it, all it was was "three guys in a music video with a girl." There's only one scene where the guys are even in the same room as Rachel in the video, and all it is is just leaning over her. Compare it to some of their saucier dance numbers before and their reaction is pretty out of left field.
** I can understand Jesse being kind of upset of not being told about "sharing" his girlfriend with other two guys. Finn and Puck, however, have no claim, as Puck pretty much used Rachel in the same way before, and Finn break up with her in the first place.
*** Puck didn't seem to care about that, though. He just said that the video was lame (which it was).
**** Actually, Puck seems to be mad at being ''used'' instead of being the one that uses. And It wasn't lame. It was Narmtastic. Beyondtheimpossible.
** There's no reason to "freak out" about Kurt dancing with Quinn because he's gay. Also don't they switch it around a bit as Quinn has also done a bit of dancing in more than one song with Artie IIRC.
*** Exactly. So if what was going on in the music video was just as innocent as if it was Kurt, if not more so, why freak out at all? Who knew high school boys get all huffy about (gasp!) a guy singing next to a girl in a music project!
**** I though exactly the same thing. Nobody I knew in high school would have reacted that way, especially the theatrical kids who would understanding the idea of "acting". But I've also heard several Glee fangirls claim they would freak out if their boyfriend was in that video playing another girl's boyfriend and [briefly] holding her (gasp!), so apparently some teenagers are that ridiculous.
**** Using that same logic, why wouldn't Rachel tell the truth and come clean with the plan? If it was no big deal and all.
***** Because Rachel really isn't all that smart.
* It's only purpose was to lead up to "Total Eclipse of the Heart", but the writers were too chicken to make her do anything actually bad. If she had actually made a "slutty girl singer" video things would have made a lot more sense, or at least a song that actually features multiple men going after one girl. It was just really bad writing, especially when Finn had to basically [[ThatMakesMeFeelAngry explain to the audience why they were all mad.]] I'm pretty sure the actor didn't even understand what he was saying.
* At the end of Rachel's "Total Eclipse of the Heart" number, all the Glee club members leave as if they're disappointed that she would do something that under-handed. This includes Artie... whom Rachel approached to help her produce the video and should have known full well what was going on.
** Exactly, what did Artie even get to do? Nothing. She approached him for help and then left him out of the loop.

!!JESSE.
* I'm sorry, he just reminds me of Edward from ''{{Twilight}},'' but without the charm of a blood-drinking corpse.
** He reminds me of Edward too, only done right. He actually does like Rachel, and his pushy behavior comes off as pushy! He's actually a flawed but loveable character, which Edward never was.
** Original poster here. [[spoiler: I made this JBM before "Dream On," where we find out the whole point of his act is to help his teacher reconnect with her biological daughter. This definitely changed my mind about him for the better.]]

!!The School Environment
* I understand that Glee is a work of fiction, and is meant to be a parody of standard high school tropes, but the absolutely toxic school environment just bugs me. In what universe are high school students allowed to throw slushies at each other with no consequences? Or allowed to print announcements about pregnant students in the school newspaper? Or throw students into dumpsters? Or demand that girls give up their panties as bribes? It may just be a case of CrapsackWorld, but since when do the quarter back or head cheerleader become objects of abject loathing just for joining a club?
** Most of the abuse probably goes unreported. "Snitches" and "tattle-tells" are lower than dirt in high school. Kids who run crying to teachers are just bullied extra for being wimps.
** Where are all the teachers? They can't be completely oblivious to all the abuse that goes on in the school. People like Sue and Ken obviously won't do much to stop the abuse, but where are all the other teachers whose job it is to protect their students from bullying, violence, and sexual harassment?
** How are the kids at this school so twisted that a person can go back and forth from best friend to hated enemy three or four times a day? Everyone in this place is out of their minds.
** I take it you've never gone to a public high school.
** This Troper DID go to public high school, and while she can attest that SOME of the bullying is believable (having had food items, paper, GUM thrown at her in the past), the rapid shift from friends to OMGIHATUFOREVR doesn't happen quite so fast as on the show.
** This Troper is currently going to a public high school(in Ohio!), and while bullying exists there, it's usually cracked down upon immediately when it happens. Plus, the people who complain about being bullied aren't "lower than dirt" as another Troper said. Then again, I've only been bullied once (and it was in middle school, not high school), and my school's anti-bullying system could just be unusually good. That, or the fact that the school is so large that clique formation is pretty much impossible without getting lost in the crowd.
** Granted I didn't go to public school, however I can attest to rapid changes in a person's attitude at that age. I could be best friends with someone at the start of first period, worst enemies by second and best friends again just in time for third. I remember a particularly vivid incident where I got so mad at a boy at lunch that I threw a water bottle at his head while I was yelling at him. By the bus ride home we were back to our usual heaviy flirting.
* After watching the latest episode... It is just me, or Will is ''way'' too aware of the bullying, and not only that, but is actually encouraging it, and encouraging a sort of gang war?
** He was encouraging the glee members to stand up for themselves and other people who are being bullied. Divided we are weak, together as one we are strong, etc. After so much infighting and slurpees, instead of acting alone or just letting it happen, they all finally grouped together to tell those football players off, and it worked.
** The SlowClap thing was just ridiculous. It's fine if they want to have the Gleeks stand up for themselves, but they can't have a teacher witnessing the abuse and not doing anything about it. In a real high school those neanderthals could easily be expelled.
** Also why exactly is this a bad thing? I can't be the only person who thinKs a gang war of Lady Gaga and Kiss impersonators vs. football players would be a FRIGGIN' AWESOME season finale.
*** Now that is put that way.... HELL YES. But yeah, the whole scene just paints Will as a HUGE jerkass, sure, United We Stand, but how many times has he passed Kurt with his "friends" near the trash bins?
** This Troper was bullied in elementary and half of middle school, but it was all verbal. There were some kids who got in fights, but if a kid was thrown in a dumpster, pushed into a locker, etc., the teachers would do something immediately. What gets me is: In one episode, Will sees Kurt get pushed into a locker and promptly tells Kurt that he's worried because Kurt isn't letting the bullying just roll of him and is showing signs of anger and isolation. [[WhatTheHellHero What The Hell Teacher]].
*** In fairness, Will might not have seen the actual push. Some people say he came around the corner in time to see it, while others say he came around after it had been done.

!!The GLIST
* I don't think this was brought up. Anyways, it was completely infuriating for Quinn to put the whole club down just to make herself feel better. Not only that, she places the blame on Rachel(and putting the list on Rachel's locker - that's real classy and mature Q). Even after knowing the club would get disbanded and the list maker may get suspended if no one came forward, she doesn't do a single thing. And what does she get? SYMPATHY and a nice pep talk from Will. That is all. Once again, Quinn gets away with screwing people over and Rachel gets pissed on for doing something harmless.
** To be fair, it seemed like she was about to confess at the end of the episode until Will stepped in and saved her bacon.
*** Did you notice Tina, Artie, Kurt, Brittany, and Mercedes all were spared from the GList? They were the ones who are actually nice to her (I'm not sure if she's friends with all of them but if she hangs out with Mercedes she probably hangs out with the first three and Brittany doesn't seem to be really mean like Santana and might talk with her). She was just getting back at Puck (who ruined her life), Finn (who dumped her), and so on.
**** ...Brittany was on the glist. She was 4th. This is why she made out with Kurt - to try to get higher.

!!Bryan's Care Package
* I don't think this was directly answered at the end of "Dream On," but did the club get to keep all that stuff Bryan offered then snatched away in a moment of fuckle spite before Will gave up the lead role in ''LesMiserables'' for him?
** Presumably. The important part was to see Bryan snatching them away.
!!Spring Break?
* Wait, I'm confused, Jesse was gone during spring break? Does that mean spring break happened already? Because that can't be right, Quinn's birth was due by then and she barely even shows.
** She shows enough, her clothing choice just makes it seem like she doesn't. Her due date was "around" Spring Break, and with two-three episodes left in the season, it's clear they're just going to say she was a bit late, in time to give delivery in (most likely) the finale.
*** Let me stress this once more, one episode explicitly states that she is DUE by Spring break. When it's that close to birthday time, you shouldn't be squinting to see the baby bump. If it was ''that'' close to the expectancy then she shouldn't be singing and dancing and putting on corsets for madonna routines.
** Jesse went back to his old school after the "Run, Joey, Run" debacle. His school probably has their spring break earlier than [=McKinley=] High has theirs.
*** Since he was in the Glee numbers and in the hallways during "Dream On", I think he's still at [=McKinley=]. He probably just took off some time to be with his friends during their spring break. He's a senior who's finished college applications, he can get away with it.

!!Rachel never knew her mother?
* Isn't it a bit strange (and a little too dramatically convenient) that Rachel's dads never allowed her to contact her birth mother? Shelby said Rachel was taken away immediately after birth, and that she never even got to hold her. Granted, Shelby was a stranger who only agreed to be a surrogate for the money, but it seems unnecessarily cruel of Rachel's dads to completely cut Shelby out of the picture and deny Rachel any knowledge of her biological mother.
** No, it's not. It happens all the time; look up closed adoptions on Google. Shelby would have signed a contract saying that she wouldn't be involved in Rachel's life. It's a legal thing, it would have been agreed upon by all three people, and it would have likely been ''her'' decision in the end. It's not like Rachel's parents are purposely keeping Shelby and Rachel from meeting because they are evil--they probably don't even know how to contact her.
** Shelby can't contact her (legally) until she's 18. Rachel explicitly says she has never asked her parents because she doesn't want to hurt their feelings, so it's really more likely that they have ''no'' idea she's curious about that part of her life.
** It just bugs me that instead of having an emotional episode or just an episode at all involving her dads, instead it's of her going off to find her surrogate mother.

!!Puck's Pro-Mercedes GenreShift
Mercedes says she and Puck can't be a thing because he's Top 40 and mysogynistic and she's R&B and doesn't want to be played for a fool. How does singing "The Lady is a Tramp" get her on his side, let alone convince her that he's dating material? I get that it originally made fun of the high-falutin' New Yawk prissiness, though I am surprised that Mercedes still took it as a compliment, but how is that any more than a [[CompletelyMissingthePoint half-baked, misguided, and in fact technically failed]] attempt at becoming (or at least showing appreciation for) her genre?
* Mercedes obviously wanted an excuse/ to make difficult for Puck to "win" her. After Quinn talks with her, is very evidently she's delighted at "dating" Puck, even if he's just using her. What bothers me more is that she decides to both break up with Puck AND to leave the Cheerios. If she had left when the "problem" was her weight, it would have been a better message. Now she comes more as "ok, I had what i wanted, now i don't care about this shit anymore"


!!Dream On
The episode with NeilPatrickHarris didn't put the rest of the plot on hold to bask in his awesome. Why ''not''? The Rhodes Not Taken focused on KristenChenoweth pretty thoroughly. I ''want'' an episode made entirely of NPH awesome!
** Because April's a recurring character and we're never going to see Bryan again?
*** We didn't know she was going to be a recurring character during that episode. How do we know this guy won't be either?
*** I thought he ''was'' meant to be a recurring or semi-recurring character, since he's on the board of directors for the school system inm which Lima High is based, has history with the Glee Club director, and is a professionally trained singer. It just depends on how often they can get NeilPatrickHarris on the show, especially considering that they were able to keep KristinChenowith on and that it's not unheard of for someone to have a recurring part on a show when they work on [[HowIMetYourMother another]]. It makes sense for him to have only had one part (and not a solo) if he was to be a recurring character, because if his character ''could'' handle an entire episode worth of preformance, or even one strong solo, there wouldn't be much room for CharacterDevelopment once that staging of ''LesMiserables'' finishes its run.

!!Les Miserables Director
I think I can say with some certainty that the Schu/Bryan audition was by FAR the best that director got for ANY role in that play. WHY did he cast Schu as ValJean and Bryan as a one-lined chorusmember? That makes no damn sense! It's not like there aren't other heavy male roles that need a strong singer in that show. Not Javert, as that requires a Baritone, but surely Marius, or at least Thenardier would have been better casting. Also, if Schu was trying to build Bryan's love of the arts back up by getting him performing again, why would he audition for the same role?
** RuleOfFunny
** RuleOfDrama
** It's not that hard to believe, actually. Who shared this information first? SUE. The director was probably so excited about both performances that he couldn't shut his mouth, and Sue probably "asked" the director for Will to be Valjean and to give Bryan a crappy role. She ''knew'' it would devastate Bryan and it would likely cut the Glee Club. How she got it? Easy, she said she would take her laundry somewhere else, which is presumably a lot, and prestigious("The cheerios clean their stuff here!") kind of stuff. Notice that the director has no problem with Will and Bryan switching places.
** I had the same reaction as the original questioner and eventually came up with the same rationale at the person above me. The only thing that gives me pause is the lack of a "Sue doing something cruel cutaway" showing her bullying the cleaner.
** He didn't know he was auditioning for the same role, and by that time Bryan was already copycatting him.

!!Dream on - Les Mis
A little of the previous JBM but I understand Sue was being evil (and I loved Will, Bryan AND Sue in the scene where she revealed it) I have 3 JBM s (of varying degrees)

1) What would Will have done if he did get the role of Valjean? Would he have just abandoned Glee Club like that?

2) Yeah, I get that Sue was being evil and probably corrupted the Director, but couldn't we have gotten a little bit of Valjean/Javert to highlight the Will/Bryan FoeYay? Like the previous JBM mentions, it's like no other male leads exist! Yeah, I know Bryan was copying Will to be a Jerk but he could be the Javert to Will's Valjean! It just fits!

3) Bryan has a reasonable point about showbiz being a hard business to get into. Yet just like that Will manages to get him a part? I know it's necessary for the show, but it still bugs me!
* 1. He ''did'' get the role. He gave it up, explicitly to save the Glee Club. If Bryan hadn't been a diva, presumably Will would have kept the role and the Glee Club. He can do both. 2. They have, what, 43 minutes worth of actual airtime? 3. Will got Brian a part in a crummy Lima, Ohio production of Les Mis. That doesn't disprove Bryan's point at all.
** Original poster here: 1. Will would teach Spanish all day, then coach Glee Club and then be in any performance, playing a severly demanding role? Sure, he could do all that, but it ain't recommended. 2. How long would it have taken Bryan to say he was auditioning for the role of Javert? They could still sing the same song, "Dream On". I just wanted them to acknowledge Javert existed and for Bryan to identify with him. 3. It still feels like a HandWave. Everything is fine by the end and none of the Glee members have taken onboard what Mr. Ryan said.
*** Sue did it. End of story. It was an amateur production, it's highly doubtful the director even knew what a soprano/baritone etc mean. He would only want moderately good singers...

!!What did Quinn mean when she called Rachel "Treasure Trail"?
An old one, I know, I but I still don't get it. Is it something that's really specific to the US?
* A "treasure trail" is the line of body hair growing down from the naval to the crotch. It's typically thin to non-existent in women (or they wax/shave it off), so she was basically just calling her hairy/masculine as usual.
** OR Quinn is kinky and wants to discover [[GettingCrapPasttheRadar what's under]] [[LesYay the treasure trail]]

!!Shelby & Rachel singing 'Poker Face'
How is that song AT ALL APPROPRIATE for an emotional mother/daughter good-bye? I basically laid down the entire scene as a [[BigLippedAlligatorMoment BLAM]], despite it having an effect on the storyline. The song choice was just so wildly inappropriate! The line about 'bluffin' with my muffin' especially so. There had to be a Gaga song more fitting for the situation.
* "Speechless" would have been perfect. However, the entire episode intentionally had NarmCharm written all over it.
* Yeah, that was one of the low points in the show's run. Aside from mangling a solid pop song, the pop song was inappropriate for the moment and it came at the end of a legitimately affecting and effective arc.
* Also, Poker Face already has plenty of off-genre covers. It seems like they were using Lady Gaga's own acoustic version as a direct reference.
* The way I saw it, Rachel just wanted to have fun singing a catchy, silly pop song with her mom.
* I agree. It was supposed to be unrelated to the situation. It was about Rachel having fun with her mum since she was afraid it might be the last time. If it had been the fast version that would have been inappropriate. The thing I love is how they both look right after the song is finished. The moment of awkwardness sums up their relationship perfectly
* While there are lots of inappropriate parts to the song, invoking the idea of "poker face" for both of them trying to cover up how strongly being apart affects them seemed to fit the situation well. Also, "she's got to love nobody", "I won't tell you that I love you, kiss or hug you", the whole "I'm marvelous" section, and even "when it's love, if it's not rough, it isn't fun" all have parallels to the story between the two characters and I think that was the intention of using the song. You just have to be willing to look at it a different way instead of being locked into one meaning.

!!Celebritygasm
Why have the episodes lately been putting aside the story and focusing their attention more on "This episode is going to be entirely showing off [music singer]. Madonna, Olivia Newton-John, and now lady gaga. This is getting to be more than just theme episodes and celebrity guest appearances, it's starting to feel like Glee's now just product placement.
* Doesn't bother me much. {{Jukebox Musical}}s are nothing new.
* I do agree to a certain point. It's kinda jarring to see them performing songs of only one person(specially if you're from a different country and don't care about said person, but meh). The only thing I don't agree is that they're not hijacking the plot... except maybe with Lady Gaga. Will had given the assignment before, there's no reason to give it again.
* I felt that Gaga was actually one of the ones that ''didn't'' put aside the story. The idea behind Gaga and the costumes and all of that actually drove several of the plots. I thought it was one of the instances where a artist-theme episode worked great.
** Plus for those of us not into Gaga we got not one but ''two'' friggin' awesome Kiss numbers featuring Puck and Artie.
** The real shame is they talk about David Bowie briefly and then dismiss the idea entirely. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa6bI_95G9I Rebel Rebel]] would've fit the theme of the episode perfectly; "Got your mother in a whirl, she's not sure if you're a boy or a girl"...
* I felt exactly like that with the Madonna episode. I just couldn't stand it, it was like a 45-minutes long advertising instead of a Glee episode.

!!How did Santana know that Finn is/[[spoiler:was]] a virgin?
Presumably she didn't know about how Finn thought he got Quinn pregnant, so wouldn't she still think that he had sex with her but that Quinn had sex with Puck as well?
* Finn mentions the hot tub incident in Sectionals, and Puck says he was "stupid enough to buy it". We can assume from this that people knew Finn didn't actually have sex with Quinn.

!!Song censoring
Okay, so in "Bad Romance," I noticed that "I'm a free bitch, baby" was changed to "I'm a freak, baby." I don't understand, why can't they swear? The word "bitch" was used earlier in the very same episode! It made the song sound kind of awkward and it sort of gets in the way of other good songs (with just some swearing using words they've used in dialogue), so why do they censor the songs only?
* Easy, the songs are put onto iTunes, meaning anyone can download it, including little kids, but the show airs later in the night and with an age warning, meaning they can get away with language on the actual show. iTunes, however, is different. Also, I'm pretty sure the use of "freak" was to drive the message of the episode further, especially when you consider the confrontation at the end of the episode.
** Not very logically sound. You have to pay money to download a song off iTunes, and a little kid wouldn't be doing that without the parent. But anybody can watch a show on Fox for free.
*** The songs also get played on the radio. Good enough now?
*** Actually, no. Minor swearing in songs on the radio is really common. And it's a moot point anyway, because the Glee cast doesn't get radio play to begin with.
* The altered lyrics would seem to make a lot of sense in-universe, actually. Remember that these are high school kids, subject to that level of censorship. Early on they got a list of "approved" songs, and they were "all either about Jesus or balloons," or something to that effect. Even getting approval for a broader range, they still almost certainly would have been forced to alter the lyrics when they performed the songs.
* ItGetsWorse. ''Funk'' gives us "mothersucker". That actually sounds ''worse'' (as in, more inappropriate) than the original line, ''even though'' the original was an F-bomb.
** [[DidNotDoTheResearch "Tear the roof off the mothersucker" is the original lyric. Blame George Clinton.]]
** The phrase "mothersucker" is not on the FCC's blacklist and "motherfucker" is. You can use the word "penis" on TV but not all it's synonyms.[[FlatWhat What]].

!!The Broadway World In-Series
So clearly, Spring Awakening, The Light in the Piazza, the revival of South Pacific, etc. either didn't exist in the showverse or featured different cast members. I can deal with that. But seeing as they spent a good deal of an episode debating who would get to sing "Defying Gravity", isn't it a bit odd that Idina Menzel (or, for that matter, Cheno) can just show up? Who originated their roles in the showverse? Rachel's room is plastered in Broadway posters and memorabilia, and she is obviously very aware of many Broadway divas and performers, referencing Babs and Patti Lupone, so the Real Life Broadway does have a place in the show's world. But who exists and who doesn't?
* CelebrityParadox.
* Idina Menzel originated the role of Elphaba in real life. Shelby Corcoran is not Idina Menzel, she is the director of Vocal Adrenaline and just looks and sounds like Idina. Separate the actor from the character and there's no problem here.

!!Finn in "Laryngitis"
Before the "Jessie's Girl" sequence, Finn is sitting in the doctor's office with Rachel. For the sake of the plot, I understand that he needed to be there, but why would a sick teenager go see the doctor with her not-boyfriend, as opposed to her parents? Does Finn carry around Rachel's health insurance information all of a sudden?
* Easy - her dads were at the same place they always are when they aren't onscreen that prevents them from having any contact with their daughter.
* Also, it's not that uncommon for friends to go to the hospital in support of their other friends, sans parents. Perhaps Rachel didn't want her dads to also worry that she might lose her voice, so she asked Finn to come instead.
* OR they were talking with the doctor in private, before he came back with Rachel, and were getting the papers ready to go back home(Plus, they gave their little girl a moment with Finn)

!!Puck and Sammy Davis Jr.
* I know that of all the things to find ridiculous in Glee, this is kind of ridiculous. But it really bothers me that, apparently, before Puck sang 'The Lady is a Tramp' to Mercedes, he'd never heard of Sammy Davis Jr. EVERYONE I KNOW knows who Sammy Davis Jr. is, and I am by no stretch of the imagination just a musical nerd who hangs out with other music nerds. Hell, I have anime-obsessed friends who barely know anything outside of that who know who Sammy Davis Jr. is. Is Puck just stupid??
** Call me stupid, I have no idea who he is. Maybe it's a regional thing or all your friends listen to the same genre?
*** Same here. Actually many of the artists used on Glee I've never really heard of. Doesn't harm my enjoyment though.
*** He was a famous musician and member of the Rat Pack. That's about the limits of my pop culture knowledge of him.
**** Original poster commenting that 'he was a famous musician and member of the Rat Pack' is pretty basic knowledge, and is what most people know about Sammy Davis Jr., and my irritation is that Puck DOESN'T EVEN SEEM TO REALIZE THAT.
***** So what? No matter how common a knowledge can be, there will be people that simply doesn't know about those facts for any given reason(In Puck's case, he doesn't care)
** "Is Puck just stupid?" Yes. Well, more accurately he's extremely ignorant about massive swaths of the world. It makes sense to me that Sammy Davis Jr. would be in one of those ignorance zones.
** He also made reference to "King Martin Luther" earlier in the episode.
** Puck is either ''very'' stupid, or has extremely selective memory. He has questioned before if Quinn getting "fat" was his fault, and more recent, he didn't know why Finn and him "hated each other"
** Sammy Davis Jr. is an historical figure but he is not significantly historical (neither are Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin etc.) and probably not taught in history class. This troper suggests that, theater kids aside, many modern day high school students wouldn't know who Sammy Davis Jr. was either.
** Idina Menzel has a dog named Sammy Davis Jr. Jr. :3 For that reason I found it ironic...

[[folder: Funk]]
!!Jesse in "Funk"
* What the hell was his problem? Is he still mad over that stupid video from five episodes ago even though he's been perfectly fine since? I mean, I can understand if they wanted him just to be pure evil, but it was written and played out like she'd done something to upset him. Is there a scene we're missing?
* Doubtful. Remember, he's basically the male equivalent of Rachel, only less used to not being listened to. It makes sense for him to throw a temper tantrum and quit the Glee club when ''he'' feels he's not being respected or treated right, even if he's being treated as ''just'' an equal. Sort of a reflection on Rachel's behavior when she used to walk out, only played for drama - because he's designated villain/FalseRomanticLead and she's designated protagonist.
* The only thing I can think of is that they spent so much of the series focusing on plots like Rachel/Finn and handing out a ridiculous Aesop each episode that the writers realized that there would be no real conflict at Regionals (Sectionals actually focused on the other performers at least, who looked like they actually wanted to win) so they turned Jesse into the designated villain (as the person above stated) and are trying to play it off like he's been EvilAllAlong. But yeah, it's completely ridiculous, I actually liked him as he made a refreshing change from the Rachel/Finn plot that's been shoved down our throats from the start.
* He's the Paolo. No matter how sweet and perfect he was to Rachel, (Hell, last time we saw him he ''admited'' to liking her), the writers turned him evol to pair Rachel up with a main character.
** It's not even that he so much "turned" evil at all. He did this for Shelby, grew to like Rachel, but in the end, he was always going to go back to Vocal Adrenaline. He even says that he loved her, he just ended up choosing VA over her. It's not like he did a 180 flip. He's remained rather true-to-character.
*** Going back to Vocal Adrenaline would make sense as far as his characterization is concerned. Going back for the reason he said he did, or egging Rachel in the parking lot has no excuse other than bad writing. Especially considering how he acted in the last episode, specifically saying, "I don't want her getting hurt." Egging her in the very next episode he appears in is a 180 turn, alright.
**** Reason he said was more or less a lie so he didn't have to say "I only joined ND because Shelby told me to". Egging Rachel in the park had more to do with the acceptance of VA then him personally having a vendetta against her. Still not that big of a 180.
**** Considering he said "I don't want her getting hurt" ''to Shelby'', who knows the reason why he's there, the chances of it being a lie are pretty small. Maybe he wanted to be accepted, but I doubt that even he'd go along with egging a girlfriend he cared about. It just points to a lot of bad writing to me.
***** EPIC bad writing. Even if he wants to be accepted in VA again.... let's not forget he knows that [[spoiler: they egged the ''daughter'' of their coach]]. In the same episode, Shelby is portrayed as a very reasonable and nice woman. She would be ''beyond'' pissed if she ever finds out.
* I think besides the point mentioned above about him being a male Rachel, Jesse seemed very... familiar with that one girl in Vocal Adrenaline in the "Another one bites the dust" number among the other scenes when you see them together. I think that girl might have played a very big part in his turn.
* Jesse's facial expression as Rachel is running to him implies that he doesn't want to go through with this and is dreading what's about to happen next. VA had basically given him the same ultimatum ND gave Rachel, only they were bigger bastards about it and forced him prove he didn't love her.
* I just fan-wanked it to group pressure from VA. It kinda makes sense, they pressure him into doing it to make sure he's back on their team. But yeah, the writers could have portrayed it better.
!!Mercedes in "Funk"
* Frankly, who the hell does she think she is complaining that Quinn doesn't have issues? Quinn lost Finn, got kicked out of her house, gets called, "fat", is ignored by her peers (see, "Bad Reputation"), can't expect Puck to be a good father, is currently stuck living with Puck, got kicked off the Cheerios, and oh yeah, is an UNWED TEENAGE MOTHER. Mercedes is just being a bitch and playing the race card. That's low.
** And she acknowledges that when she apologizes to Quinn. From Mercedes' perspective, Quinn was just the former [[TheLibby Queen of the Cheerios]] who got knocked off her high horse so she automatically assumes that Quinn has never faced any real hardships. It's made clear at the end of the episode, where Mercedes actually ''apologizes'', that she was completely wrong.
** Seconding this JBM, and adding: The Glee Club itself is 50% minority (If you count Artie and Kurt) so it's not like Mercedes is the ONLY BLACK PERSON EVER. Meanwhile, there must be plenty of people who want to knock Quinn down a peg now that she's not on the Cheerios/Is the pregnant Ex(?)-president of the Chastity Club. So I don't see why Quinn would say that "now she understands how Mercedes feels" when she has all the issues mentioned and Mercedes is... the black daughter of a dentist, who wears designer clothes and is apparently well-liked by her peers.
** At the risk of sounding like a KingOfTheHill parody of liberal academics, it doesn't really matter that Mercedes is the "daughter of a dentist, who wears designer clothes..." The legacy of racism and institutional racism strikes at well-off African-Americans, if not with the same ferocity as it strikes poorer members of that community. I'm sure she'd still get followed in a store, still get treated poorly by waiters who think black people don't tip, etc. And, not for nothing, she ''admits'' she was wrong. She apologizes to Quinn. She also wasn't terribly popular before joining the Cheerios; she was slushied, just like Kurt and Artie.
*** But none of that was bullying was racism. Artie, Kurt and Rachel are white, and later, they also bully Puck, Finn and Quinn. OTOH, Santana, Mike and Matt don't seem to be being bullied at all.
** She probably had a kneejerk reaction to it - wouldn't you be a little "Uh... what?" if someone comes up to you that's seemingly completely different (in Quinn's case, she's a rich well to do upper class girl) and says "Yeah, I know all about your hardships!". After she had time to cool down and actually think about it, she got un-angry.
** I assumed it was more based on the fact that funk started in the black community with Soul Train and most white people who have attempted funk have, well, sucked. I think it is comparable to if Quinn wanted to rap. Admit it, the idea of a white teenage girl who grew up in an affluent household would strike most people as odd and pathetic. Mercedes's gut reaction to Quinn saying she wanted to sing funk was disdain, but by the end of the episode she had realized that she was wrong to make snap judgement about people based on their race and social upbringing.
!!Will in Funk
Will is a bastard. Other than the WhatTheHellHero he deserves it for how he treated Sue, last episode he ''encouraged'' the group to stand together against the bullies (Basically, condoning a fight against the football players) Notice that the group was supporting Finn and Kurt, who are both well-liked within the group, and the bullies were ''threatening'' them. Now, a mere episode later, the Caramel High [[spoiler: trashed their choir room, and humiliated Rachel throwing eggs at her.]] She is ''easily'' the least liked of the group, and yet, [[spoiler: ''Puck'' of all people, planned to avenge her, and Kurt, who doesn't even like her wanted to go too.]] The group has effectively evolved into a {{Nakama}} and Will's reaction is to stop them. He doesn't even report their behavior to the other school or to Shelby. [[spoiler: Sure, they got pwned with the Funk number, but Will is still a {{Jerkass}} for not even ''trying'' to report them]]
** Will encouraged the glee club to stand up for themselves and stick together but not to do anything that would get them into serious trouble (like Puck and Finn's prank) and instead find other ways to fight back. Not to mention the fact that they don't have any hard evidence that Vocal Aldrenaline vandalised the chior room while Finn and Puck were probably caught in the act of their prank, ''and'' Puck admitted to it to his own principal. If Will had reported the valdalism it would probably be a case of Shelby's word against his and since Vocal Aldrenaline comes from a larger and seeming better-funded school it would most likely not lead to any action against them. After Egging Rachel Will decides to give them a taste of their own medicine and taunt them with an awesome performance they can't hope to replicate in order to demoralize them, he just cuts out the extra acts of vandalism that he knows he couldn't get away with. Furthermore after everything Sue has done to pretty much everyone on the show how can you deny that Will isn't fully justified in taking her down a few pegs. The thing that really bothers me is his attack of concience, granted he really did it for the kids and not for Sue herself, but this is a woman who actively encourages the bullying that goes on in the school and even engages with it herself among the teachers. Pet the Dog moments and Fruedian Excuses aside Sue Sylvester is a terrible, terrible excuse for a human being. She is a spectacualrly awesome villain though.
*** Yeah, the choir room technically did nt harm, and they had no proof(hell, it was probably Sue), but egging Rachel is * way* worse, yet, while the presentation of Vocal Adrenaline in the auditorium of [=McKinley=] was probably endorsed by Shelby, she doesn't seem the kind of person to endorse juvenile pranks, (the toilet paper) even less the egging of someone (Which is pretty cruel) let alone [[spoiler: her own damn daughter]] She hasn't been portrayed as a villain (She even prevented Finn and Puck's expulsion, who would have gotten New Directions in serious trouble) so there is no reason for Will to not tell her anything about the egging. And like I said, he's encouraging a fight with the jocks and the Glee Club(Not to mention he seems to be fully aware of the bullying, but didn't did a damn about it). Sue is an AWESOME human being. She's horrible, yes, but not the kind of horrible to avoid, but the kind of horrible that annoys you so much you try to do everything in your power to prove her wrong. Technically speaking, it was thanks to her that Glee won in sectionals(Will only gave other people solos after she pointed it out, which united the team more. She also pointed out how Will hogged the money for wheelchair accessible bus, which in turn ''forced'' the Glee Club to work as a team to understand Artie better, and a large etc.) Sure, she's horrible, but it has been thanks to her that New directions has improved. Not to mention all the opportunities the girls and boys of cheerios get ''just'' because they were on the team.
[[/folder]]

!!Tina and Mike having the same last name
* Seriously, was "Chang" the only Asian surname they could think of?
** Technically, Tina's last name is actually "Cohen-Chang" while Mike's last name is just "Chang".
*** That says nothing of substance. The ''Asian'' half of Tina's last name is still the same as Mike's.
**** So what? It could end up being a plot that they're cousins, or they're just averting the OneSteveLimit. Don't forget the characters name ''Finn'' and ''Quinn'' and ''Kurt'' and ''Burt'' that sound like a bad children's fairy tale.
***** I always thought Finn/Quinn and Burt/Kurt having similar names was done for comical reasons. I bet the writers had a little bit of fun averting a silly ship name for that pairing by having them have rhyming names. And it makes sense that Burt would name his son Kurt. After all, it has been firmly established that Burt had hoped for a boy who would be just like him.
**** "Chang" is a dirt-common Asian name, period. ThisTroper works at a school and can verify how many Changs or Chens or Ngs or Nguyens attend...tons. Never raised an eyebrow with me.

!! Regionals
* This troper can't remember the pilot very well (so I'm sorry if I screwed up some of the details) but as far as I can remember, Principal Figgins tells Will that the club has to place at Regionals or it will be closed. Does 'place' translate as 'win' in the Glee-verse? Because where this troper lives, 'place' means 'come first, second, or third' and surely New Directions can do that- nobody said they had to beat Vocal Adrenaline.
** I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that will exactly be a plot point in the episode. Especially with Sue as a judge, I have a feeling New Directions will place second in Regionals. If you notice, so far it's really only been ''Sue'' saying they either have to win or it's all over so I'm fulling expecting the Principal to say otherwise if the situation arises.
** I'm pretty sure it comes from horse racing (or is just used there most commonly) but "placing" means coming in second. First is "win" (obviously), second is "place", and third is "show."

!! Will saying "Pick up your shirt!" to Terri in "Mattress"
* It sounds like he's telling her to pick up a shirt off the floor, not to lift her shirt.
** LOL

!! Figgins in "Sectionals"
* Principal Figgins tells Will that he can coach Glee club again after finding out about Sue's leaking of the set list, and told him he phoned up the Governing board and set the record straight. HOW? Will was banned from coaching the Glee club for sleeping on a mattress that was considered payment for the glee kids services, it had nothing to do with Sue!
** I felt that what he was actually referring to was the mattress incident. He called them and set the record straight about THAT. Which is hwy he could then coach again. But maybe I was alone in that interpretation.
** The fact still remains that Will broke the rules, he slept on a mattress which was considered accepting payment, he didn't do anything to nullify it, the rule was still broken.
** Will was only "banned" from sectionals as he accepted the payment from the mattress he used. He can coach at school as much as he wants to, and they'll probably hand-wave the whole thing when they reach regionals

!!Next Year
Nationals take place the year after Sectionals and Regionals. How does this work when the Seniors who participated in Regionals graduate? How is that fair? In ''Glee'', they pretty much do two song preformances a week at minimum, and towards the end of season 1 they set up a completely new set two or three times hardly a week before Regionals, one of them starting ''less than a day before the competition'', so is it so impossible for them to have two competitions per semester, or a fall competition, a late winter competition, and a late spring competition?
* From how I understand, Nationals is actually a few months after Regionals (in real world time anyway). Not that it matters because the Glee club isn't ''going'' to Nationals. So... what exactly is it that bugs you about this?
** I was (and still am) under the impression that Nationals was part of the next school year. Whether or not New Directions goes is irrelevant to the problem of Nationals taking place after the best (usually the best and/or most practiced, at least) members of the clubs that passed Regionals have graduated. All of the competition clubs I've seen in real life, and the one I've been in, had their highest-level competitions at the end of the same school year in which they had their lowest-level competitions.
*** Then why are you under the impression that it happens differently in Glee?
**** Will told the kids to take the summer off, giving the misleading impression that Regionals happened at the end of the year. And since the episode aired when most schools ''would'' be getting out, it just cemented that impression. There are probably a few more weeks for them, during which Nationals would occur at some time.
***** He told them to take the summer off and not have to worry about practicing and all of that because New Directions isn't going to Nationals. They have nothing to practice or worry about until next year's Sectionals.
*** I got the impression that the back nine were supposed to pick up not too long after the fall finale (and certainly not the four months it was between episodes). While ''Journey'' takes was aired in early June, it probably took place in late March / early April. This is based on Quinn giving birth about a month premature (I think that's what was said, correct me if I'm wrong). That would give the winner of Regionals ample time to prepare for Nationals, which probably take place in late June.

!!What Is Wrong With a Celibacy Club?
Ok, this is pretty old news, but its been bugging me since I saw the episode.

1.Rachel gives this entire speech on how celibacy doesn't work and how teaching abstinence only is dumb. But it is the celibacy CLUB. C-L-U-B. No one (except possibly their parents) is forcing them to join this club. If it was Health class and they were only teaching abstinence, then fine, whatever. But her putting down the club is like saying that ANYTHING telling kids they need to just wait is terrible. From my experience with these clubs, they are usually only support groups for teens who wait till marriage. [[SarcasmMode THE EVIL.]]

2. Rachel says that teaching only abstinence is bad because kids can't help themselves and will have sex, and need to know how to protect themselves. That's all well and good...but do they seriously think that school is the only way kids learn how to protect themselves? Thing is, my school system teaches only abstinence, and I, someone who is actually waiting until marriage, have known how to put on a condom since I was twelve. How? Curiosity, Wikipedia, and teen magazines. Seriously, its not that difficult to figure out. Its not like schools could be allowed to tell you more than the internet or CosmoGIRL would.
** There was a time when schools ''could'' give frank discussions of sex and how to avoid STD's and pregnancy but...let's not get political here.
** It was RuleOfFunny, and and extreme parodies of it. She wasn't giving the rant because the school refuses to teach stuff other than abstinence, it was because the club was ''insane'' and refused to even discuss the idea that sexual intercourse isn't the devil.
* It's ''Rachel'' who gives the speech. She has the ''need'' to be the center of attention, and she did it in this instance by being controverial. Plus, let's not forget she wanted to boink Finn, who was also in the club and ''listening to her''.
** Yes, but every single entry on this site is about how the speech is an intentional TakeThat at the terrible abstinence movement, not just Rachel being herself. I'm just wondering why its such a bad thing that there is a club teaching abstinence in the first place. Sure, the club IS insane...but that club is obviously a StrawmanPolitical figure representing the AM. Schools should be able to talk about sex, because not all students have personal or religious reasons for deciding to stay abstinent. But for those of us that do, why is it such a bad thing to form a club supporting that? Believe it or not, we're not all crazy right-wing religious extremists. Some of us are just people who think its better to wait.
* Regarding the whole thing with the chastity club, there isn't much to indicate that most of the characters took it seriously. Quinn did appear to take it seriously, but did end up breaking her vow because I guess she got caught up in the moment, and Jacob seemed to take it seriously until Rachel gave her little speech. But other than that, it was kind of clear that the club was just an excuse for the cheerleaders and football players to hang out with each other.

!! Shelby.
Okay, I understand that the Aesop of ''Theatricality'' was that [[spoiler:you shouldn't expect finding out about or meeting your bio-parents to be a wholly positive experience,]] but the way the whole thing plays out, are the audience really meant to believe that it will turn out as badly as it did [[spoiler:for Rachel meeting her birth mom?]] For starters, [[spoiler:Shelby decides that she and Rachel should part mere days after the reunion that she initiated before they've even had a chance to talk about it like Rachel suggested that they do by going to dinner. She does this at the behest of Will, someone she barely knows and therefore can't guarantee that he has either of their best interests at heart, instead of say, Rachel's dads, whom she would have presumably got to know over the course of the pregnancy.]] Then in ''Journey'' [[spoiler:we see that, because Shelby is too upset about having Rachel being an almost-adult who doesn't need her, she's going to move on with her life and start going for things that she actually wants, while shutting Rachel out. She doesn't even tell Rachel to watch out for the fibroids or whatever it was that necessitated her motive-producing surgery.]]

Also, a somewhat more minor nitpick: [[spoiler:given Shelby's experience of surrogate motherhood, wouldn't she be more likely to suggest an open adoption to Quinn and Puck?]]
[[folder: "Spoilered"? Characters.]]
!! The upcoming fundie Christian character.

I know we haven't even seen her yet, and I should probably be reserving judgment for her until we do - and I intend to give her a chance - but what's been revealed about her so far [[UnfortunateImplications really doesn't sit well with me]]. Ryan Murphy said he's adding a fundie Christian to represent "the right wing", since he's made jabs at it before - so another group of people can feel represented - but the character in question is going to be prudish and homophobic. Anyone prudish frankly stopped watching this show after the raunchy second episode, and anyone homophobic likely gave up after the forth (if not after the first). Considering he's also promised a gay romance between Kurt and a football jock next season, I highly doubt the homophobes will decide they can tolerate the show now that they've got someone "representing them". The kind of Christians/conservatives who stuck with Glee and enjoy it are NOT the same kind as the character seems to be, and they're by and large probably not going to feel represented by a bigot - or appreciate the generalization that all Christians/conservatives are predjuidiced (for proof, check out all the offended comments [[http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/47433409.html here]]). Finally, what bothers me the most is that she's going to be well-loved - the other characters are supposed to like her, respect her and even befriend her. Is Kurt going to be one of these characters? Is he going to respect a girl who the writers have explicitly stated will not respect him solely because he's gay? Are we going to have to watch as Tina, Artie, Quinn, Finn and (God forbid) Mercedes befriend someone who is openly predjuidiced against their friend? I just don't like the sound of this at all.
* As an extremely liberal Christian, I winced a little when I first heard about this character, but I can't deny that there are people like that out there. I'm withholding judgement until I actually see her.
* Christians are taught to hate the sin and love the sinner. It would be perfectly realistic for this character to be a sweet girl who genuinely cares about Kurt and sees it as her duty to "save" him. So unless she gets really pushy, I can see the others still being friends with her; it's possible to disagree with someone completely on one issue and still like them overall.
** Yeah, you're right - I know that's true in real life. I guess it just bothers me in the context of the show. Homophobia has not only never been condoned on the show previously, but it's been flatly condemned from the beginning; the only homophobic characters on the show are generic one-dimensional school bullies (except for Puck, but he's supposed to be a {{Jerkass}} - and even HE comes around and defends Kurt from the aforementioned bullies with the rest of the Glee club at the end of Theatricality!), Finn has to go out of his way to repent for one instance of homophobic language when provoked, etc. It just seems to contradict everything the show has preached before about tolerance to have an intolerant character be portrayed in a positive light. The entire Glee club came together to defend Kurt from bullies who were obviously homophobic before - but now they're going to accept someone who is openly predjuidiced against him as a friend? That just seems like discontinuity.
*** Honestly, my fear is that she's going to come off as a StrawMan and an intentional scrappy. As argued about in the Kurt/Finn confrontation, my biggest fear is that her only purpose will be to learn {{Anvilicious}} Aesops.
*** Saying that ''{{Glee}}'' condones homophobia because it has a sympathetic character who doesn't approve of homosexuality is like saying that it condones having unprotected sex with your boyfriend's best friend because Quinn isn't a CompleteMonster. Practically every character on this show has done at least one truly atrocious thing, but every one of them comes off as sympathetic at least once in a while (unless you count the jocks who aren't in glee). Creating good rolemodels clearly isn't a priority for Ryan Murphy.
**** You're right. I was wrong to say the show would start condoning homophobia, and I don't want this character (or any other) to be written as a CompleteMonster. I just don't like what I've heard about her. Ryan Murphy may not feel the need to write characters who make good role models, but he most certainly seems to enjoy creating offensively stereotyped {{Anvilicious}} ones. He says this girl is going to be very vocal about her opinions, and that she'll be respected...and the only opinions of hers he's disclosed so far are "sex is bad" and "no homo". Add Murphy's tendency for {{Anvilicious}}ness, the statement that this character will speak her mind and another statement he's made that she and Kurt will "butt heads" frequently, and one really gets the impression her homophobia will be a major facet of her character. And, I don't know, maybe you [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation read these characters differently]], but I can't picture a lot of the Glee club befriending a girl who is really openly predjuidiced against Kurt - especially after everyone came together to defend him from that same predjudice. But then again, writing this has made me realize how little I know about this character to base my judgements on. I guess I should stop going on about this. [[ItJustBugsMe It just bugged me]].
***** Maybe she'll have a reason for being that way - one of her parents could be a Ted Hagard {{Expy}} but, then again [[spoiler:wasn't that territory covered with Quinn's dad? "Tatooed Freak" sounded more like Judy was referring to her husband cheating on her with a man rather than a woman.]] I think the most likely way it could play out is that they'll all like her at first and then she'll stay some stuff, we'll get our aesop and [[StatusQuoIsGod the plot will carry on like it never even happened.]] They could at least use it as an opportunity for Kurt's boyfriend to stick up for him and start off/develop their relationship. I'm all for speculating at the moment but I'm with you guys as far as saving judgement for later goes.
***** There's a difference between saying, "I believe that homosexuality is a sin, so I'm going to quote the Bible at you until you see the light," and saying, "I think that homosexuality is disgusting, so I'm going to beat the crap out of you." It makes sense for the glee kids to respond to this girl differently than they did to the homophobes on the football team.
***** I do think that there is at least some potential for this to actually be good. Instead of being the sort of standard GayAesop conveyed by the whole show that [[AndThatsTerrible HOMOPHOBIA IS BAD!]] it could be something along the lines of "It's hard not to feel upset by the people who treat you with the same kindness and decency as would anyone else until they find out you're gay. They might not want to beat you up but they don't see as just another person anymore."
****** ...so you think Kurt's friends in the Glee club (say, Mercedes or Tina) will be more receptive to this character because, instead of pushing him into lockers, she's telling him he "won't inherit the kingdom of God"? Personally, I just...can't see that - and personally, I'd rather someone punch me in the face than tell me something congenital to me needs to be "corrected" and that he/she refuses to accept me until it is (and can totally help with that). Kurt's been shown to be the same way, too - notice how he gets overly (almost hysterically) upset in Laryngitis, when he mistakenly thinks his dad views his sexuality as a "problem"/something that's wrong with him, but how, at the end of Theatricality, when the football bullies are advancing on him, he says, "Go ahead. Hit me. I won't change". Yes, there may be a difference between homophobia for religious reasons and homophobia for social reasons, but...homophobia is homophobia. It is "the same predjuidice" - I don't think my wording was wrong. The only character who seems like she'd cut this character slack because she's religious is Quinn, and Quinn is friends with Kurt, now. Half the Glee club is friends with him, if you count Brittany, and everyone else has stood up for him - and not just Kurt has reason to take personal offense to her homophobia (Rachel has two dads, and Murphy's considering having Brittany and Santana kiss on-screen in an upcoming episode). Furthermore, it's been said that this new girl and Kurt will "butt heads" a lot - which implies Kurt will be as vocal about his feelings as she will be, so the other characters will KNOW how hurt/offended he is. Yes, it is possible to be friends with someone despite finding them to have an unsavory quality or two, but this seems like a pretty big "despite"; I may be going out on a limb with some of the conclusions I've drawn about this character we haven't seen yet, but I think it's pretty safe to say her homophobia is going to be a major facet of her character. But anyway, while I'm already ranting incessantly, I read some of the spoilers disclosed at Comic Con just recently, and one of them was that there's going to be a religion-themed episode where [[spoiler:Mercedes takes Kurt to sing with her at her church]]. Two of my main concerns about this character were that the (all-too-common) message that faith and homosexuality are incompatible was going to be reinforced, and that she embodied the "(seriously) religious/conservative people are intolerant" generalization. Both of those were pretty much entirely dispelled by that news - so I apologize for jumping the gun as I did, and I'm especially embarassed at having said the show was going to start condoning homophobia, since that just obviously would never happen. My only still standing complains are that no-one still watching the show will feel "represented" by this character (which I think is true, but almost every other character is a stereotype, too, so that wasn't a big one) and that I cannot see the other characters befriending her realistically - which [[ItJustBugsMe still bugs me]], and I just tried to explain why. If you still don't see why it does...well, this page isn't strictly for rational, justified complaints, is it?
***** This Troper first got interested in Glee BECAUSE it was a riot seeing so many cliches and stereotypes all thrown into highschool with musical numbers. The stereotyped homophobic, anti-contraception and anti-sex before marriage, is just as valid as CampGay Kurt, JerkJock Puck, or DumbBlonde Brittany. In the end Glee is a DRAMA/Comedy, they nicely subverted homophobic "have you tried not being gay" father stereotype in Burt, but what writer could pass up a nice dose of [[{{Gayngst}} homophobia]] from a minority who are stereotyped for being homophobic?!
* This Troper isn't sure exactly why this new character even exists when Quinn, a conservative Christian, has been around since the first episode. Several times, she has provided the right-wing side to things, with her sometimes coming across as sympathetic and sometimes not. It's never been stated how she feels about Kurt's sexuality, but the show could go either way. Have a scene where she is openly disapproving and deal with the tension that causes within the group, especially in regards to Mercedes, who is a close friend to both Kurt and Quinn, as well as a Christian who has no issues with his sexuality, or have a scene where Quinn voices her support for him. In the latter case, have a scene with her mother or or one of the homophobic bullies where she defends her support.
[[/folder]]


!! An all-BritneySpears episode? Seriously?
I know that, like the above troper, I'm ranting about something that I haven't seen yet, but ''why?'' Nevermind the fact that Glee is batting 1-1 with their tribute episodes (the one about Lady Gaga fit in with the characters and the story and was even funny, but the Madonna episode turned everyone into raving lunatics and had next to no relevance to the plot). Nevermind that the artists chosen for these tributes are nothing more than a CampGay man's wet dream. When are we gonna get a tribute episode from the ''guys''' point of view?

* Ryan Murphy said there's going to be another tribute episode (the one airing after the Super Bowl); that one might pay tribute to a male band/artist.
** Murphy's had the rights the entire Billy Joel catalog since episode one first aired, so that would make the most sense. YMMV on whether or not that makes up for a BritneySpears episode.
* Two things:
** One, Theatricality was not just about Lady Gaga, since Finn complained on-screen to Schuester that none of the guys (save Kurt) wanted to do Gaga, they did KISS instead.
** Second, the Madonna episode also served the plot; it introduced the virginity plot and put Kurt and Mercedes in the Cheerios (which got a ResetButton for Mercedes at the end of the next episode, but Kurt went on to win Nationals), we'll have to trust the writers with the Spears episode and the other tribute.

!! Where's the Disney episode?
Madonna. Lady Gaga. Britteny Spears. Theme episodes are everywhere...and yet they aren't doing a theme episode of the most obvious collection of over the top musical numbers? I ''know'' I'm not the only one who thinks this would be a good idea. My life will NOT be complete until Will sings [[{{Mulan}} "Make a Man Out of You"]]!
* Much as I love the idea to bits, doing so would in actual fact be involving a lot more people than a single mainstream singer, yes? Because there are so many movies, and several different sets of singers and songwriters and everything. So I'm not an expert on copyright law, but it might happen.
** Factor in that MANY lyricists and composers for Disney songs are dead, and that rights for certain songs have reverted to estates/spouses/children, getting a broad enough spectrum of Disney songs to include in just one episode of Glee alone would be ridiculously expensive, damn near impossible, or would take so much time that the episode would have to go into production NOW to air in the third season.
*** Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's how copyright works in the US. I'm pretty sure the ''only'' copyright holders will be Disney themselves. If what you are saying is true, then something like Kingdom Hearts would be damn near impossible to make and no highschools could ever put on Disney shows (which mine does).
*** Poster of the copyright stuff here. The songs are in a different category than the characters of Disney. To use an example, Disney owns the rights to The Lion King characters. Disney can license the use of their characters and likenesses freely. The music of The Lion King is: a) written by Elton John and Bernie Taupin, b) released through Hollywood Records, and c) concievably part of the Disney music library. Glee would need permission from all three of these entities. If they planned on doing a just-Lion King episode, that would be relatively easy. Now imagine that they want a song from Cinderella, written by four people, two of which dead (thus meaning we must deal with estates), Disney, and whoever else has a claim in the song. To my recollection, the Disney shows are licensed by Disney, and Disney has covered all the respective copyrights for the songs herein. (Again, if the shows are for one Disney film/TV show, deals are made much easier.) And addressing Kingdom Hearts, correct me if I'm wrong (not very familiar with it), but the soundtrack only has a few select Disney songs being used as scores?
* I highly doubt Disney would give the rights to their child-friendly songs to a show as raunchy as ''{{Glee}}''.
** Are we forgetting the Disneyworld episode of ''{{Roseanne}}''?! Where Darlene's baby was conceived? Disney doesn't shy away from this stuff.
** The problem is more that Disney owns ABC, which is a rival network to Fox.
** Network rivalry becomes moot when Tivo and Hulu let you watch whatever you want whenever. The sheer ''money'' Disney could make off royalties from [=iTunes=] and a CD release should make this a possibility. Sue singing "[[LionKing Be Prepared]]"? Santana singing "[[TheLittleMermaid Poor Unfortunate Souls]]"? Kurt and his future boyfriend singing "[[{{Aladdin}} Whole New World?]]" Yes please!
*** I highly doubt Fox is going to make episodes and songs that can only be seen on Hulu. Hell, I highly doubt Fox would want to share the royalties with one of their competitors when they have a good cash cow going all for themselves. A disney episode just is not gonna happen.
**** Already happened as Hulu is a joint venture of Fox, ABC(Disney), and NBC. That said, there probably still won't be big ticket Hulu only stuff and generally, Hulu tends to get things on a huge delay anyway so that first-sale markets (TV, concerts,etc) get their goodies first.
!! Male homosexuality = long, in-depth and wonderful plotline. Female homo/bisexuality & polyamorous relationship = couple cuddly shots and throwaway lines. Discuss.
Twitch. Twitch. Twitch. Twitch. Twitch. On the other hand, we're supposed to see more of Brittany's character in Season 2, so perhaps salvation will arrive.
* Brittany and Santana were originally intended to be background characters who sit around and do funny things sometimes. It was only after Brittany became an EnsembleDarkhorse that her relationship with Santana began to be developed, and they've been gradually receiving more screentime as the show goes on. Also, they both seem to be comfortable in their sexuality so there isn't as much potential for drama there like with Kurt, who has incidentally been a main character from the very beginning. Not seeing a problem here.
* Ryan Murphy just recently said Brittany and Santana will kiss on-screen in an upcoming episode (and possibly do "more" - though I personally doubt that'll happen), too; so presumably their relationship is going to be focused on more.
** Am I the only one who feels bothered at the idea of them kissing and doing possibly "more" on screen? Before I sound like a troll, I would be happy to see a well-developed lesbian/bisexual/polyamorous/whatever-they-are relationship on TV. But I don't think Glee will be able to do that. Brittany and Santana come off as "gay for your enjoyment," more like porno lesbians than anything else. If they kiss on screen, I feel like it won't be taken seriously at all, or will be played as a joke. Do the writers seriously know nothing about how lesbians or bisexual girls get treated in high school? If they ever kissed and were seen by anyone, they would almost DEFINITELY be the subject of bullying. There's plenty of drama to be had in Santana and Brittany being "found out" and sticking up for themselves, but somehow I doubt that would happen.
** I highly doubt they'd be bullied. [[LesYay Two attractive cheerleaders]], one of which was a short-lived Head Cheerleader, and both essentially a step below Quinn as queens of the school,[[GirlOnGirlIsHot dating each other?]] The worse they might get are some chauvinistic comments or cat calls. More than likely they'd be celebrated and [[ADateWithRosiePalms fap-fodder]] for people like Jacob. Does it really seem likely that anyone would be [[TooDumbToLive suicidal]] to mess with two of [[JerkAss Sue]] [[MagnificentBastard Sylvester's]] most trusted Cheerios? Besides, other than the two JerkJock bullies, the school doesn't seem to have a problem with Kurt's homosexuality, but the fact that he's on the bottom of the social ladder (other than the occasional insult aimed at him). I think they could set the episode up to explore the DoubleStandard there is toward homosexuality. As long as it's played respectfully and not for {{Fanservice}}, it could be a good episode.
*** I guess what I'm saying is, I can't see it being played as much other than {{Fanservice}}, or even if it is done seriously, some {{fanservice}} is definitely going to be employed. It just seems a shame. Also, what do you mean by "explore the DoubleStandard there is toward homosexuality"? I guess I'm kind of confused as to what DoubleStandard you're talking about. "If you're already popular, it's okay"? "It's easier to be homosexual if you're attractive"? "People don't take lesbians seriously and instead see them as fap fodder"?
*** Mostly GirlOnGirlIsHot, while two guys is {{Squick}} and "wrong", but I see what you're saying. Also, life ''tends'' to be easier for popular/attractive people.
* It's down to the characters in this situation. Kurt is one of the core six who have been in the club since the Pilot, and can probably be considered the fifth main character (after Will, Rachel, Finn, and Sue). As such, he gets a lot more screen time than Santana and Brittany, and much more in depth storylines. Another reason the female bisexuality is played differently is that one of the participants is ''Brittany.'' The girl is a walking fountain of non sequiter one-liners, and the comedy is central to her character. Giving Brittany a serious storyline wouldn't work unless it was built toward very slowly. Finally, Kurt's drama revolves around him being openly gay and there being no one he can relate to. Santana is very obviously denying her bisexuality, and Brittany is known to sleep with anything that moves (I believe she once said she made out with her cat?). Santana is making sure that Brittany doesn't tell anyone, and Brittany is obviously in love with Santana so she complies. No one knows, therefore no drama.


!!With so many male cheerleaders, how can Kurt be the only gay boy at McKinley High?
Okay, just to be clear, I'm not stereotyping, just making a joke. [[DFarrey This troper]] is gay, so I understand gay=/=into "girly" things.
* There probably are, but Kurt is, in his own words, the only '''openly''' gay boy in school or even in town. With the amount of homophobia in town, I'm not surprise if everyone else decides it's far safely to remain in the closet. And regarding the male cheerleader thing, they can probably claim they joined to ogle the female cheerleaders constantly.
** Agreed. Statistically, there are probably several gay guys at McKinley, and not just on the cheerleading squad. The key word in situations like these is "openly".
* See above as well. Who would risk incurring Sue's wrath by doing anything to any one of her Cheerios? While probably not for everyone, ironically, Sue's Cheerios may be one of the few places were you'd be safe from abuse (that wasn't from Sue anyway).

!! Why are all the Glee kids only from one grade? Why don't any seniors, or freshmen or sophomores join? Surely there must be some other student who isn't a junior that likes to sing.
* Because they don't want to deal with being foced to split up the group once the senior one is supposed to graduate.

[[folder: Artie]]
!!Artie
People are always saying that he is a sympathetic character, and he is to an extent, but some of the things he does are annoying and/or completely uncalled for. This Troper would have to say the moment that solidified this frame of mind for me was Episode 19. In the scene where he tries to walk, he says that Tina pushed him to do that, basically saying that it was her fault for him believing in himself. Now, I will grant that Tina got his hopes up, but he was the one who had those hopes to begin with, and he was the one who took it to the extreme, not her. All in all, I found it uncalled for. And then, there's is complete lack of respect for Tina as a person, always calling her 'woman' and treating her like she's a part of his life that he could give or take. This is obviously not the case seeing as he has an obvious crush on her. There are a few other places where I haven't found Artie enjoyable at all, but these are the moments that really stuck out to me. In this Troper's opinion, Artie's vices outweigh his virtues just a little bit too much for my liking. And Tina's too, apparently. I completely support her moving on to Mike.
* I have to defend two points you made here. First, where he tries to walk. Of ''course'' he overreacted and blamed her. You have to remember that when people are as emotional as he was at that point (He's been in a wheelchair for years, unable to do plenty of things that everyone else can do, and the one time he gets to do something resembling walking, he just falls down again) don't think rationally, and often just want someone to blame. We all do that when something traumatic or sad happens to us. 2. Calling her "woman." The only time I remember him using that is when he's joking. My friends call me woman sometimes. Its not meant to be taken seriously. I agree that some of his behavior in say, The Power of Madonna was ridiculous (but really. Was there a character that ''wasn't'' OOC in that episode?) but usually, yes, he is sympathetic.
* Completely agree with the OP here. I mean, when Tina broke up with him she says "You're a terrible boyfriend, you ignored me for weeks this summer!" And how does he respond? "I was playing a marathon round of Halo, woman!" Tina then points out to Artie that he has no interest in what SHE is interested in. And of course instead of actually learning to care about her feelings, what does Artie do? He tries to get abs.
** It doesn't help that that's the message she sent him to begin with, "Why can't we talk about things I care about? Like his abs!" Combine that with the fact that she pretty much jumped on Mike while he was dancing at camp (while she and Artie were presumably still dating since she wasn't shown actually breaking up with him until they were back in school). Futhermore we're never told during ''what'' weeks he "ignored" her. If it was during the time she was away at camp then her accusation is hardly fair and a shoddy justification for cheating on him. So far there has been no evidence that her attraction to Mike is ''anything'' but physical and I ''know'' Artie isn't perfect, and I love Mike, I really do, but at least Artie has an actual personality other than "being pretty and a good dancer," and that's ''exactly'' what Tina fell for.
** So what? Whether or not Tina moved on, the fact still stands that she should have dumped Artie, and that is ''specifically'' what I'm talking about, so think of this with Mike out of the general picture. Had Tina been at camp the weeks that Artie didn't call he would have probably ''said'' that she was a camp instead of saying how he was playing Halo. And just because Tina ''might'' be a bad girlfriend, that doesn't excuse Artie for the way he acts, or make her any less right in dumping him. Actually, I ''am'' going to bring up Mike, because even if all he has going for him is "looking pretty and being a good dancer," as you say it, he's still going to be a better boyfriend than Artie because Artie was a selfish boyfriend, and having almost no good things and nothing bad going for you is better than having a few good things and a few bad things going for you. I mean really, what ''does'' Artie actually have going for him? He can sing and play guitar, which is about equal with being pretty and a good dancer. Tina was also friends with both before she started dating them so even though you don't see it on screen, Mike DOES have a personality. Actually, from what you're saying it sounds like you're saying Tina is in the wrong to break up with Artie. Why? Why is it so wrong to break up with a boyfriend who acts like a jerk towards you in favor of a guy who doesn't?
** Part of the problem is that she was sucking Mike's face ''before'' she broke up with Artie, which is still pretty cruel. Furthermore we don't ''know'' that Mike isn't a jerk, we don't know ''anything'' about him at all other than he's on the football team, he's asian, he's a good dancer, and he's good looking. Artie does have his flaws but at least he's a fully-developed character with good ''and'' bad traits. Mike, by comparison has as much personality as the Brad the piano player, he's just kind of ''there.'' On top of all this we know ''why'' she broke up with Artie, but we don't know why she likes Mike, other than the fact that he's a good dancer and he's pretty ''and that's it.'' The evidence presented in the show itself suggests that her attraction to Mike is purely physical and that's why is seems shallow to some people.
*** Actually, we don't know for certain that Tina cheated on Artie. That quick scene of them making out in front of their campers could have just been what Artie ''imagined'' happened. That's pretty over-the-top behavior, even for ''Glee''. And I didn't get the impression that the scene between Tina and Artie in the cafeteria was the actual break-up; he might have just come up to her and said something like, "I still don't understand why you dumped me."
** ''"Part of the problem is that she was sucking Mike's face ''before'' she broke up with Artie"'' I'm sorry, but that doesn't excuse ''Artie's'' actions, this is a Just Bugs Me about ''Artie'' and how ''he'' is a bad boyfriend. Regardless of what Tina has done Artie was ''still'' a bad boyfriend. Don't use Tina's faults to excuse Artie's. Can you ''honestly'' tell me that if Artie treated Tina like she deserved and payed attention to her and her needs, that she would have cheated on him with Mike? Was Tina cheating on Artie wrong? Yes. Does that mean she's not allowed to dump him? No. Does that excuse Artie from being a bad boyfriend who kinda deserved to be dumped? No. STOP USING TINA'S FAULTS TO DEFEND ARTIE. Regardless of Tina's actions, Artie was still a bad boyfriend. Do you get it or do I need to repeat myself for the thousandth time (because guess what? I've already said this ''five times''.)
* The Brittney/Artie part of Duet is kind of hurting Atrie's rep as a sympathetic character for me. He completely blows Brittney off without giving her any chance to give her side of the story (and he can't have been ignorant of her sexual history before he slept with her). About the only way I could see this as reasonable is if Artie was supposed to be completely lacking in self confidence and therefore primed to believe Santana's story, but lacking in confidence hasn't really been a big part of Artie's personality so far.
* This being glee , is likely a very cynical desconstruction of "pair the spares" and/or "nerdy guy dating hot girl", manly: OF COURSE Artie would be a bad boyfriend, his confidence is just a mask of his social ineptude. He is simpathetic character because of his flaws, he isn't outright malicious, but neither is perfect just like everyone in this show[[/folder]]

!!Mischaracterization in Season 2, Episode 1
Some of the {{Flanderization}} made sense, in a twisted sort of way (Rachel's insecurity when anyone even remotely threatens her standing, Artie had mentioned playing a lot of {{Halo}} at least once before [though a week-long match was far more than pushing it]), but a lot of it went beyond Flanderization into what seemed an internal case of CowboyBebopAtHisComputer (Schuster teaming up with Sue for immature pranks [late season 1, and in fact much of Season 1, showed why he would nearly never team up with Sue, among [[YourMileageMayVary other things]]], Artie acting the way he did at the beginning of "The Power Of Madonna" [which was out of character in the first place, based on every other Season 1 episode]).

!!Finn and Double Standards
This is major YourMileageMayVery but it's always struck me that, setting up the parents aside, Finn was just as bad as Kurt in his prusuit of Rachel, as Kurt was in his prusuit of Finn. He sung "Jeese's Girl" at Glee and Rachel was obviously uncomfortable about it, when Rachel told him no, she wasn't going to date him because he wasted his shot with her to protect him, which is something he never said to Kurt (though I think part of it was he just didn't realize what Kurt had a crush on him until "Theatricality") he flat out told her that he was going to continue to pursue her. While he didn't know she was in a relationship with Jesse when he said that, he deffiantly knew when he sung "Jesse's Girl." He knew Rachel still had feelings for him, and he was using that in order to get her back. Not to mention the time during he basically seduced her in order to get her back in Glee while he was still dating Quinn, albiet for reasons other than romance, which actually makes it worse. To top it off there's always been a sexual tension between the two as well. So really, the only thing that sets Finn's behavior and Kurt's behavior apart is that Rachel returned Finn's feelings, but wasn't acting on them due to self-respect and being with, and enjoying being Jesse at the time.

!!Story Telling
Or how it's told. So much happens off screen that we can only guess at, and when some things are adressed it's five or so episodes down the road.

[[folder:Britney/Brittany]]
!!Will's whole plotline in Britney/Brittany
Emma says "I never wanted you to change who you were, I just wanted you to loosen up a little, Will!" What? That has nothing to do with anything! She dumped him because he was cavorting with other women and wasn't ready for a relationship. The sad thing is, things coming out of nowhere like that are an extremely common occurence on the show! Can they please hire another writer? Someone who has a basic understanding of how basic storytelling and suspension of disbelief actually works?
** Agreed. If my memory is correct, Will was trying to get ''her'' to loosen up.
** Granted, I was busy playing BirthBySleep while watching this episode, but the way I understood it was that Will had ''become'' more uptight and stressed lately with the realities of his life finally hitting him, his divorce with Terry (now a full blown [[LoveMakesYouEvil psycho ex]]), losing even more of his budget to Beiste, and losing Emma, who was getting concerned that Will needed to relax before he blew his brains out. I'll have to give it a second viewing, though.
** Huh... I think that Emma was being specific about this episode, meaning that she wasn't just talking they relatioship, the advice was more friend-to-friend than potential-love-interest-to-potential-love-interest

!!Tina orgasming over Britney Spears
(Blank stare) Even Hot Topic goths (which I think we can agree Tina is) would avoid Britney like the plague. While I can't picture her being gung ho about Christopher Cross either, her loving Britney came way out of nowhere, and you'd think she'd be right there with Will that they do something else.
* Not everyone who likes goth fashion also adopts the stereotypical goth personality--there's even [[PerkyGoth a trope for that.]] Tina got into Glee by singing "I Kissed a Girl", for crying out loud. Is Katy Perry any more goth than Britney Spears?
* How Britney is different of Madonna or Lady Gaga? Tina was ok-to-delighted performing those songs.
** The difference is that while Madona came into play before the generation of teens in Glee were born and Lady Gaga is coming into play now, Brittany came into play as I (and the characters of Glee, and probably a lot of people who were watching the show) were growing up. I mean, when I was growing up I would hear my classmates say ''horrible'' things about Brittany, about how she got a boob job, or how much of a slut she was, anyone would have to be mental to listen to her music because Brittany had such a bad reputation. If Madona had that sort of reputation, the talk would have died out by now, and Lady Gaga's bad rep is generally based on lies or things that are really just opinion. To sum it up it's really just that Brittany is seen as a slut.
*** Technically speaking, Britney also came into play before the generation in glee. Rachel gave her birth as 1994, which means that Britney was huge when she was 2. None of the teens is said to be too much older or younger, so they were being born, or were like, 4 tops when Britney hit the stands. LAter, they would have only know her either as has-been, or got into her old record and become cult fans of her. And pretty much all the gleeks have been shown to be outcasts before, so even if everyone told them they were "mental" for listening(and liking) her music, is not like they would care. In their eyes, she would not be worse than Madonna, who, like every other artist has been the subject of rumours and stuff.
**** Speaking as a Troper born in 1993, I was singing Oops, I Did It Again in kindergarden. I had Britney fatigue before I was old enough to listen to her other songs, and her worsening reputation didn't help. I don't mind listening to her every once in a while, but I definitely wouldn't consider her strong, a good role model, or even a particularly good singer.

!!Rachel testing Finn's fidelity via Quinn in season 2, episode 2
It really doesn't make sense given, you know, ''Finn'' dumped ''Quinn'' in the first place.
* Throughout all of Season 1, Finn's loyalty to whomever he was dating is specifically shown to be tenuous at best. He cheats on Quinn with Rachel in the first episode, and is tempted by her several times after that. He cheats on Rachel with Brittany and Santana, and loses his virginity to Santana even though he says that he still has feelings for Rachel. Rachel's testing him by having Quinn hit on him in the same way she and Santana got him to stray before - just walking right up to him and asking. This time is remarkable only because he said 'no thanks.'
** He didn't cheat on Rachel, they had broken up at the time.
** It makes sense if you realise that Rachel isn't just afraid that he cheats on her but that he chooses popularity over her.
*** Or for the matter, that -she's- just that insecure and possessive. That's what little she's finally got, she's afraid of losing. It doesn't have to be rational, just emotional.
* I felt this scene lost its impact by how it was written and acted. It could have worked but it was played more like Finn said no because dating Quinn would hurt him too much rather than that he's committed to Rachel. Plus when Quinn's talking to Rachel it seems like the whole thing really upset her too. Rachel already was coming off as a DesignatedHero JerkAss in this episode anyway and this just cranked it up to 11 by having her bring up old wounds.

!! The complete lack of plot in this episode at all!
* The first half hour was just recreating Britney videos including an AWFUL rendition of Hit Me Baby One More Time. Then Rachel wearing the exact same outfit she wears every episode but with her stomach hanging out suddenly makes her super hot? Or the fact that they devoted so much time to Jacob masturbating (including the sex riot scene where the one good Britney cover is pushed to the background so we can instead hear him jizz his pants). Or that Sue has severely injured herself and is completely healed by the next episode?
** Totally agreed. Some of the covers were good, but this has got to be my least favorite episode so far. The CharacterDerailment (not only with Will, but Kurt was never ''that'' much of a jackass to be so disrespectful to Will), the [[MushroomSamba flimsy excuse]] to recreate Britney videos, [[FanDisservice seeing Jacob naked]], etc. The only thing this ep did to advance the overarching plot was show Artie joining the football team.
*** While I agree this was the worst episode of this show yet, I thought Kurt's yelling at Will (while being disrespectful and uncalled for) was almost a [[CrowningMomentOfAwesome Crowning Moment Of Awesome]]
**** I don't see how. I think the point of Will's lesson was to get the kids to consider the music in genres they're not used to, and Kurt spends the whole time bitching about not singing Britney.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Grilled Cheesus]]
!!In Grilled Cheesus, lighting a candle in a hospital room where oxygen is in use.
TelevisionIsTryingToKillUs. Kurt, clearly the OnlySaneMan, did the reasonable thing and blew it out. Then again, he also thought that [[YouFailBiologyForever acupuncture would get his dad out of a coma.]]
* He thought the acupuncture would help his dad's circulation, which would increase the flow of blood to his dad's brain, which would get his dad out of a coma. Which is scientifically sound. Also, [[http://www.springerlink.com/content/x1867532142350l5/ clinical]] [[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16334716 studies]] have shown that acupuncture can help people get out of coma's faster. Above Troper DidNotDoTheResearch.
* I thought that the acupuncture was for Kurt to try and de-stress.
* I'm pretty sure blowing out the candle was a symbolic gesture rather than common sense. I mean, Kurt is only as smart as the writers can make him and these writers...well...probably wouldn't hesitate take a candle into a hospital room themselves. And Kurt did say the acupuncture was for his father. Though the weirdness of Kurt believing in acupuncture was probably another mistake on the writer's part.
* It seems more like Kurt was willing to try anything (except prayer) to save his dad.
* A nasal aspirator doesn't put out enough oxygen flow to do anything but make a candle burn very fast, and that would be if it was completely disconnected from Burt's face and feeding directly towards the flame. The only way the oxygen would have exploded would be if Kurt suddenly decided to hold the candle against the tank for a very long time, or to turn the oxygen on full blast and disconnect the aspirator, neither of which he seemed inclined to do. Yes, it probably wasn't incredibly wise, but it wasn't exactly a ticking time bomb.

!!Finn's prayers in "Grilled Cheesus"
If Finn was so upset about Burt, then why the heck didn't he pray for Grilled Cheesus to save him?
** Finn was too busy using his prayer as his "Genie in the Bottle." That and he was holding the IdiotBall the ENTIRE episode.
*** That's pretty much the entire point, Finn completely misuderstands religion and the idea of prayer in general.

!!"Only the Good Die Young" is not a religious song.
It's about telling a girl to give up her faith so she'll put out. If anything it's anti-religious. Yet Kurt is the one who's offended while the actual religious kids are dancing around? I mean, I can understand the dancing around, I'm Christian and I love that song, but...it ain't a religious song. Neither is "One of Us", which is just a "What if" song. And "Bridge Over Troubled Water" and "Losing My Religion" aren't about religion either. "I Turn to You" is only ambiguously religious and could be about anyone you want it to be about. "Papa, can you hear me?" counts but she didn't sing that in school. Although, yes, singing it to a comatose guy you don't know against the wishes of the family is very offensive and creepy. Not to mention touching his head!
* The whole "religious"/"non-religious" song thing seems to have come out of nowhere as a way to ratchet up the tension for the episode. No one ever mentioned anyone having a problem with Imagine or Say A Little Prayer, and remember Figgins back in S01E02 getting a list of approved songs from his pastor that all have either "prayer" or "ballons" in the title? (Still waiting for the 99 Red Ballons follow up on that one :)

!!The prayer circle in "Grilled Cheesus"
What the HELL were they thinking? Kurt specifically said he doesn't want their prayers. And then Rachel, Mercedes and Quinn go to the hospital to pray. They didn't ask for Kurt's permission, in fact he wasn't even there. Rachel even sang and TOUCHED Burt. How dare they? It was unbelievably rude. I admire Kurt for being so restrained and asking them to leave instead of THROWING them out.
* Finn might have asked them to. While he may not be Burt's son by blood, he still feels like Burt is part of his family.
* Kurt might not have wanted the prayers, but who says that Burt wouldn't want people praying for him? There was no mention of whether or not Burt was religious.
* And Carole Hudson, she did not protest.

!!"Grilled Cheesus" in general
From Finn not praying for Burt (the only time he brings it up is when he yells at Kurt, who could possibly lose the only parent he has, about not telling him), to Kurt's "friends" preaching their religions, even though he specifically told them that he doesn't believe in God, alieninating him when he needed them the most, to Sue being villianize because she has the audacity to complain about children talking about religion, in a public school, where everyone is bound to have different religions! Worse, Kurt had to apologize for pushing them away, but they never apologized for making him uncomfortable in the first place. I'm a devout Christian and I was appalled by what the Glee club was doing. In fairness to the clubbers, they just wanted to help, but it appeared that they wanted to convert Kurt. Now you can pray for anybody regardless of their religion, but you don't have to even tell them that you're praying for them, let along do it in front of them. Why did Mercedes take Kurt to her church? Why did they have a prayer circle around Burt, where Kurt would definitely see? However, I have to give a huge compliment to Puck: he quietly start going to the synagogue to pray for Burt, rather than putting it on the back burner (like Finn did) or making it a huge spectacle to parade in front of Kurt (like practically everyone else did).
* Sue wasn't villainized for complaining about the kids discussing religion; she was villainized for manipulating Kurt when he was at his most vulnerable to further her own agenda. And her explanation of why she did that made this one of the few episodes in which Sue has actually been sympathetic.
* Also, did anyone else find it unrealistic that everyone was so shocked when Kurt said he didn't believe in God? I know Lima is supposed to be really conservative, but I grew up in a really conservative town, and I still knew an atheist or two in high school.
* Actually, I'm pretty sure that absolutely none of the Glee clubbers tried to convert or preach to Kurt. That never happened. And none of them paraded their beliefs around in front of him. He was the one that alienated them when they were trying to help. The prayer circle, as someone else noted above, was done when Kurt was not there, because they knew that he didn't believe and they didn't want to shove their prayers in his face! Nobody tried to convert anyone, unless you think that Brittany giving him her book report and a card was her actually slipping him psalms. In regards to Mercedes, her first song was about prayer being comforting in troubling times, and that was before Kurt revealed that he was an atheist. And yes, she took him to her church - to tell him that even though she didn't understand his belief, or lack thereof, that she will always be there for him! The point of this episode is the moment when Kurt holds hands with the little old lady and realizes that even though he doesn't believe, his friends are there to support him!
** The fact that the prayer circle was done when Kurt wasn't there just makes it worse. Instead of respecting Kurt's wishes they went behind his back. If they wanted to pray for Burt without shoving it in Kurt's face, they could've done it somewhere else, not it the hospital. Hovering around Burt and praying was insensitive and rude.
** [[@/LucyZephyr This Troper]] would like to very loudly second the above. If you are praying for someone despite their sincere wishes, you are not doing it for them, you are doing it for your own comfort. The Glee Clubbers, by performing their little Prayer Circle, were basically saying, "We know you explicitly said not to do this, but we're going to do it anyway." And they couldn't have thought Kurt wouldn't be in the hospital room. His father's there, of course he will be too! ... [[SuspiciouslySpecificDenial Not that this troper is an atheist who grew up in a small town in the bible belt]] [[BerserkButton and has had to deal with this sort of thing on multiple occasions.]]
*** While I agree what they were doing was wrong, I don't agree it was just for their own comfort. They didn't need comforting. Burt's not their dad. Quinn and Rachel probably hadn't even met him. They were honestly trying to help, the problem was their failure to look at what they were doing from Kurt's point of view and understand how that would offend him. In the end it was Kurt who looked at things from their point of view and was able to forgive them.
*** I thought they were doing it for Finn and his sudden spirituality. Kurt was probably in the lobby (waiting for the acupuncturist to arrive) so they thought they could come in and offer some comfort for a friend who was willing to receive it.
*** They went to visit Burt, most likely after school, and while there they decided to pray over him. They stopped when Kurt came into the room, explained what they were doing, and left immediately and without protest when he told them to leave. I don't understand why people are making this out to be a carefully organized personal attack. They were doing the only thing they could think of to help in a hopeless situation.
*** Why does no one mention the fact that Carole (ie the girlfriend) was there with them
*** Why did no one ever mention Burt's religion? To my knowledge his wishes and beliefs were never brought up and Burt's wishes should matter a lot more than Kurt's. The fact that it never occurs to anyone to even check or talk about it makes me want to update my living will right this second.
**** In "Furt" Burt is revealed to be a religious person, so he probably would have appreciated the prayer circle, which is probably why Carole was going along with it.
*** A couple of things, as previously stated Sue wasn't villainized because she was atheist. No, she was criticized for manipulated Kurt into protesting against the religious songs for her own selfish, albiet sympathetic, reasons. Nobody was intentionally trying to make Kurt feel uncomfortable, nobody forced him to sing songs or participate. HE alienated himself from everyone else because of their song choices. Kurt apologized because he had been lashing out at them the entire episode. The whole, Mercedes inviting Kurt to her church was in response to his earlier preconceived notions that all Christians are Bible-Thumping Homophobes. Now admittedly, the pray circle was very bold on their part since Kurt made it known he wanted know part in that, so they should've respected his boundaries. But just the same, nobody was trying to shove religion down Kurt's throat.
*** That is, in fact, exactly what they were doing. When he said he didn't believe in God, the whole club was aghast. They switched from trying to comfort him to trying to convince him to be religious, because he "needed to believe in something." When someone is grieving, telling them they are doing it wrong is not the correct response. Their prayer around Burt was so specifically "interfaith," I guess so as not to promote one religion over another, but that just meant that everyone's feelings were respected EXCEPT Kurt's. The atheist gets to have his opinions too, people. The whole thing just felt like a random {{anvilicious}} pro-religion episode, and then afterward everything snapped right back to normal. It was kind of pointless, and - to any atheists - offensive.
*** To me, it seemed less pro-religion and more anti-intolerance. Kurt accepting Mercedes' invitation to see what a "tolerant" church was like (instead of dismiss all religious people as intolerant idiots) was seen as a good thing, and everyones' insistence that he actually be religious (instead of doing what he felt was right) was a bad thing. I (something vaguely similar to a pantheist) thought that religious people who didn't get what I thought was the point would be more offended than atheists who didn't get what I thought was the point, so take that as you will.
*** They why did Sue and Kurt go unconverted? The Aesop was more involved in the person, not the religion. If it was pro-Christian episode, than Kurt ("I believe in you [dad]") and Sue would have converted in the end. It does offer its pro-Christian philosophy of love for all in the conversation of Sue and Emma. In the end, Kurt realizes that he doesn't believe in God, but he can appreciate the caring prayers his friends give him. At the end of the episode, they sing "What If God Was One Of Us." What if... Kurt and Sue both make their peace in religion without converting. And this is a real-life Christian speaking here.

!!Kurt's guardian in "Grilled Cheesus"
In-universe, no one has any idea how long it'll take for Burt to regain consciousness or if he'll even make it, so shouldn't the school or the hospital call any contact of Kurt's to make sure that he's taken care of?
* He was probably staying with Finn and his mom.

!! Sue and Jean Sylvester
When Sue goes to visit her MoralityPet, she talks about why she stopped believing in God. After realizing that Jean was ridiculed for living with down Syndrome, she prayed 'for her to get better'. If you don't see how offensive this statement is, try replacing down syndrome with 'black skin' or 'homosexuality'. Apparently, the bigots are right, 'Jean' is the one that needs to change. Sure, down syndrome is a disorder, but that doesn't mean that it's okay to discriminate the people who have it. Let's recap: '''Her own sister and best friend just told her that she would prefer to change her to a more 'socially acceptable' person instead of changing others to be more acceptable of the person she is'''. In the Real World, this very issue is a rather big {{BeserkButton}} in the disabled community. Jean should (and has every right to be) ''furious''.
* Keep in mind that Sue was a ''little kid'' when she prayed her sister to get better, you can't expect her to fully know what she was talking about. And let's be honest, changing people with hateful opinions is near impossible. No matter what there will always be ''someone'' who just can't accept others for who they are. Regardless, though, it is 100% true that Sue's sister ''would'' have a better life if she didn't have down syndrome, you can't just erase the fact that it's easier to live without a mentally incapacitating disease than with one. Why wouldn't Sue want the best for her sister? It's true that Sue loved her just the way she was, but that doesn't mean that her sister isn't going to have to deal with hardships because she has down syndrome.
** I can accept that Sue didn't fully know what she was talking about when she was young re. the prayers to "cure" Jean. However, I don't understand why, as an adult, she still regards it as so unfair that God didn't intervene to change Jean - especially when Sue is fully capable of articulating how much she loved her sister just as she was.
*** ''Because her sister would still have a better life without down syndrome than with it''. As was already stated in the comment above yours, had you read all of it, you might have realized that.
* I may be wrong on this, but I think Sue said that she prayed that other people would stop laughing at her sister, not that her sister didn't have Down syndrome.
** No, she specifically said she prayed for Jean to get better.
* You are comparing being black and/or being gay with Down Syndrome. Down Syndrome is a medical disorder, being black or gay is not. They're not even close to being the same thing.
** Of course they're not the same thing. But, if you have a certain very specific point of view, an admittedly-limited analogy could be drawn. Some people wish their gay friends or family were not gay so as to spare them the suffering of being bullied by hateful homophobes. It may be wrong to wish their friend or family member to be different, especially with something so central to their identity, but sometimes people are so distressed that they focus on wishing for the wrong change (in this case, not just wishing for those homophobic people to be more open and loving). And yes, Down's Syndrome is a medical disorder, but some of the most loving, giving, and life-affirming people this troper has ever met have had DS. They might not be that way (or, at least, not that much) if they didn't have DS. How much can you want a person to be different without, in the end, not wanting them to be who they really are?
*** This is not about being normal, it's about being self-sufficient and mentally capable. As awesome as it is that you know people with Down Syndrome who are loving, giving, and life-affirming, the fact remains that it's a ''syndrome'' and they'd be better off without it.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Duets]]
* It's implied that Mike ''has never sung in public before now.'' He actually says that he's not sure he ''can'' sing. So what exactly has he been doing for the last year? Lip syncking? Rachel and her perfect pitch would have outed him long ago. For that matter, what did he do when Mr. Shue told everyone to prepare a solo in "Laryngitis"? And why did he join the glee club in the first place if he didn't want to sing? If he just wanted to dance, then he should have tried out for Cheerios.
** Perhaps he meant public as in a solo in front of everybody rather than the typical background 'oooh aaah' chants that go on while the main singer steals a spotlight in any given Glee performance. And while his singing and duet performance was freakin' brilliant, it was done in a completely different style to Rachel's or Kurt's typical 'look at me, I can do every vocal range and then some' show offs so it's possible he could feel really insecure about his voice compared to everyone else's attention whoring. As for 'Laryngitis', I got nothing. :P
* Why does it seem like the only time Sam talks to another male character is in the locker room?
** What about the season 2 premere, when Sam introduced Sam to the other guys in New Direction, in their class room?
*** That was more in reference to "Duets" than the whole second season, even Kurt talked to him while he was taking a shower.
** Because it would be a lot harder to justify him taking his shirt off in the choir room.
*** But much more fun.
** I dunno, but I think it's unfair to accuse Kurt of stalking Sam when Finn is the one who keeps popping up in the locker room whenever he's in there, telling him what clubs to join, who he can be friends with, and who should be his girlfriend. How did he even find out about him trying to kiss Quinn, anyway? And how is that a major Glee party foul? What does that even mean? And in case Sam wasn't weirded out enough already, he goes and does that "Born Again" number for the duet contest...
*** No one is accusing Kurt of stalking Sam, Finn is just trying to be preemptive because of what happened last year. If Kurt gets attached to Sam, Sam might get weirded out and leave the club, which Finn is trying to prevent because Sam is has a shot at bridging the gap between glee and the popular kids. Finn keeps showing up in the locker room because he's on the football team and is often in the locker room when Sam is. He found out about Sam and Quinn the same way everyone in high school knows about stuff: people talk. Quinn is kind of forbidden territory after the pregnancy, apparently it's just kind of understood. The "Born Again" thing was, admittedly, weird.
* Finn says he doesn't have a problem with the fact that Kurt is gay, he has a problem with the fact that Kurt doesn't get that "no means no", which would be a legit point, but the only time Finn ever actually said "no" was in "Theatricality". The issue was always that Kurt was persistant and didn't respect Finn's boundaries, yes, but Finn always had trouble asserting those boundaries (For instance, in "Ballad" Kurt tells Finn he wants to sing "I Honestly Love You" to him, and instead of pointing out that it's innapropriate, Finn just says it's a nice song and looks uncomforable). It just seems kind of unfair to treat Kurt like a sex offender who was ignoring outright requests for him to stop and leave Finn alone when Finn barely ever bothered to say anything about it.
** Yes, exactly. If Finn were a girl he wouldn't be able to put out a restraining order, he would have been accused of "leading him on" and "playing coy" even though he had no interest. Kurt was doing what society teaches men to do and Finn was actually doing what society teaches women to do. Men are taught that persistence pays off when it comes to persuing, and women are taught not to be too assertive or they'll come off as "bitchy". It's a messed up situation no matter what gender the people involved are, but it's judged more harshly when it's two men and the more feminine one is playing the wrong role against the more masculine one. In fact, people would probably have no problem with a masculine gay guy persuing Kurt in the same fashion.
** Kurt ''knew'' that Finn was strait. Finn shouldn't ''have'' to say no. Look at it this way: my sister had a crush on her gay best guy friend. If she had pressured him anyway and tried to turn him ''strait'' just because he "never really said no", would that justify defense? True, Finn's line about "no means no" was a little off, but what he meant was that Kurt completely and intentionally dismissed boundries he knew Finn had to try and seduce him. That is not okay, and Finn was making it clear to Kurt that he better not do that agian. What Kurt did was restraining order worthy--he got their parents together so that he could get closer to Finn (who, to add a pinch of Squick, should be more like a brother figure then) and when their parents made them share a room (which is just stupid. Would you put your daughter and son in the same room?) instead of doing the right thing and saying "Dad, that's not appropriote" he used that to his advantage. Yes, Finn didn't say that either, but he was probably afraid of saying something that might offend Kurt or Burt. I don't think it has anything to do with "gender roles," it was just a creepy thing to do.
*** Wait... what? You can't take a restraining order out on someone for setting your parents up. You would get laughed out of court.
*** Except all Kurt did was flirt a bit, introduce two parents in the hopes he and Finn would get to spend more time together, not tell his Dad about his crush and... well, yeah. That's not restraining order worthy. It's 'sit him down and say no, not interested, please stop' worthy, but you're not gonna get put in court for it. (Also, it is really not the same thing to put a gay guy in with his new step brother as a brother and a sister. Gay guys aren't completely unable to control themselves around the gender they see every day in the mirror, jeez.)
**** It might not be court-worthy and Finn was probably hyperbolizing when he said that, but Kurt was still overstepping his boundaries. He mistook Finn's kindness for something deeper and didn't know when to back off when Finn didn't return the affection. And let's be real. Even if Finn ''was'' gay or bi, that's still [[TokenShipping no reason to date by itself]]. Finn was only nice to Kurt ''because he's a decent person.'' Kurt's behavior would still be creepy and stalkerish if Finn were gay; setting up the parents to date as a ploy to get closer to him just sounds like a subtle IHaveYouNowMyPretty (the look on Kurt's face when Burt and Carol announced they were dating only confirmed this). And by the way, it's a little silly to point out that gay people don't get off on ''themselves'', because that's just weird no matter which way you swing (narcissist much?).
***** Yes, it was overstepping boundaries. But it wasn't any creepier than, say, Will not backing off Emma when Emma explicitly told him to, or Will being treated by the show as in the right for trying to conduct an emotional affair with her, or asking her if she'd had sex with her new boyfriend, or Finn telling Rachel outright to break up with Jesse and be with him. Basically, they're teenagers, they screw up sometimes. Was it pretty creepy? Yep. But it's not something worth demonizing someone over, especially when Kurt is continually singled out above and beyond the above examples for it. And it's not worth bringing up restraining orders over like was said above. (The point I was making with the rooming thing was just that no, it's not unacceptable to room a gay guy and a straight guy together like it would be brother and sister. Gay men are more used to male bodies than straight women, generally, and it's a bit like people saying gay men need 'special' changing rooms or something. Not the same at all.)
** Except Finn ''knew'' Kurt was ogling him and would sneak a peak whenever possible. And let's not pretend Kurt wasn't. I'm not trying to demonize him, and I know exactly what he's going through, feeling like he's the only gay person in existence. But he still needed to learn his behavior wasn't cool.
*** But that's not the same as rooming 'a brother and sister', that's rooming someone with a ''crush''. It's not the same thing, and yes, one of them probably should have pointed this out. With regards to the second point... he did? I mean, no, we didn't get a Very Special Moment about it. (Until we got the ridiculous 'it means you may never spend time with straight guys again' thing in s2, anyway.) But it ''never'' benefitted him. It ended with him in tears in his room having been told 'no, never' in very unambiguous terms. Yes, the moment shifted to focus on Finn's homophobic comment, but the moment still presented to Kurt a very clear message that no, you can't manipulate him into a relationship, and you've just hurt and angered him. Isn't that enough, really?
*** Kurt never tried to look at Finn in the shower, though. He's been shown to be a romantic seeking an emotional connection. Finn was assuming AllGaysArePromiscuous and AllMenPerverts, but at this point Kurt would be happy just to hold hands with someone. Just because he was sexually attracted to Finn doesn't mean he was lecherously ogling him and ready to jump his bones at any second. That's not how his crush was portrayed at all.
**** ^Just to add: Please notice that one of the very first interactions that Finn had with Kurt had him saying that "he was flattered, but already had a date for prom", (Even before Kurt admitted being gay) while that was just him being nice, Kurt interpreted it as "I'm seeing someone now, but I might be interested if i wasn't". Kurt always respected his relationship with Quinn more than Rachel, and only did a little flirting, and started "seducing" him only after Quinn and Finn had broken up already. Since Kurt knew how Rachel acted during Finn/Quinn relationship, she was fair game.
* Finn says that if Sam does a duet with Kurt "He'll get so much crap, he'll HAVE to quit Glee club", which neatly ignores that Kurt probably gets that level of "crap" every day, but also ignores the basic issue of WHO would be giving him crap, and how they would find out about the Duet. For every number except Kurt's "Le Jazz Hot" number, the only people who saw the kids perform were the other Glee clubbers and the backing band. It's not like Kurt and Sam would be performning their duet at nationals or in front of the school. Someone would have to outright go and TELL the school jocks/bullies that they did a duet together, and ignoring why anyone would be motivated to do that, I have serious doubts about how much flak Sam would get for "So I heard you sang a gay little song with that Hummel kid".
** I wondered the same thing. Finn really came across as a homophobic jackass here. "I'm not the one with a problem, society is!" I've heard ''that'' before. Sam deserves credit for his maturity, in both wanting to keep his word with Kurt despite the potential social stigma, and genuinely not understanding why Kurt backed out of the duet.
** Kurt gets that level of crap because he's gay, not because he's in Glee club. He would get it whether he was in Glee or not (sad, but true). And, as said above, this is high school. No one knows how things get out, but they do and then everybody knows about them. And you're forgetting the one thing that McKinley High has that no other high school in the world has: Sue Sylvester. Sue would know what had gone down, and tell ''everybody'' with the express intention of getting Sam to leave Glee so they wouldn't be able to compete. And finally, Karofsky and Azimio slushie people for no reason other than being associated with the club, and they were especially bad to Kurt during ''Theatricality'' with the implication that this isn't unusual (see also the early series instances of dumpster dropping). When they inevitably would find out about Sam and Kurt singing a duet together they would ''definitely'' focus their energy on tormenting Sam.
* So Sam is shown to be willing to risk homophobic bullying because he gave his word. Which I thought was very awesome of him. However, doesn't that kind of contradict his ''entire'' story in "Audition", where he broke his word to Finn and chickened out of joining Glee ''because he was afraid of homophobic bullying''? I don't think he made a blood oath with Kurt. I'm sure his word was just "Sure, I'll sing with you." the same as how he told Finn "Sure, I'll audition for Glee Club." And they didn't even try to handwave why he suddenly decided he wanted to join after all!
** The way I saw it, his injury meant he couldn't play football again for the rest of the season, and he joined Glee Club because it was the only other extracurric that he was interested in.
** Maybe he just realized he doesn't really care what people think about him being ''in'' Glee club. Finn is afraid that the added abuse from singing with Kurt might chase him off again. It's a delicate situation that he is trying to maintain.
** Maybe he just ''changed'' his mind? Or maybe he just thinks that homophobia is wrong enough that he should stand up to it?
** IIRC, Sam decided not to join Glee because he was afraid Coach Beiste was going to give him crap for it (like she did when Finn put up the posters in the locker room). Maybe he can't play anymore because of his injury or just noticed that she was cool with it (because Finn got back to the team and Artie joined too).
* How the hell did the Finn who dressed up in a ''Lady Gaga'' costume in series one to make it up to Kurt end up as the guy who goes hey, sucks for you Kurt, but man, think of the straight dudes! Seriously? The guy who a wore red PVC dress to stick up for him is suddenly of the opinion that Sam getting laughed at- which he will be anyway for being in Glee, since its nickname is 'homo explosion'- now thinks straight guys should put themselves first? Where'd all that character development go?
** The "we need drama" box?
* How did Artie go from telling Brittany, "I still have feelings for someone else..." to being all, "Oh, cool! Let's have sex!" in basically his very next line? He just had AesopAmnesia in the same scene! In the space of two lines! "I'm not supposed to be with this person. Oh, hold on, wait, I want to have sex with this person." Either that was supposed to be jarring, nonsensical and wrong in an effort to set up the true OTPs (Tina and Artie and, uh...I don't know, Brittany and Santana I guess...) later in the season, or it's really shitty writing.
** Um, because he's a confused teenager, and the girl he still has feelings for is dating a guy who is well known for being good at the one thing Artie really wants to do, but will never be able to? Artie has, at this point, all but given up on getting back together with Tina, and just doesn't know how to stop being in love with her. Remember, the thing that Brittany ultimately used to seduce Artie was the prospect that she would "help [him] forget Tina." The problem wasn't that he didn't want to be with Brittany, it was that he wanted to be with Tina ''more'' and didn't know how to get past that.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The Rocky Horror Glee Show]]
* The very end annoyed the ever-loving hell out of me when Will canceled the show after he realized that the only reason he was doing TheRockyHorrorShow in the first place was to romance Emma. All well and good... until he tries to justify his actions to the teens by drawing a parallel between Rocky Horror fans and the Glee Club members. He then says that they are going to do the show... but the teens will perform to a closed theater with no audience and will, in effect, be doing the show for themselves. So basically, [[BrokenAesop the whole moral of the show]] is that it is okay to be different - an outcast, a weirdo or a freak - just so long as you and the rest of the freaks hide yourselves away where the normal people don't have to look at you. Considering the Glee Club has a number of handicapped, minority and gay members, this has very UnfortunateImplications.
** I think you've got that backwards. He says that Rocky Horror was a place where the outcasts, weirdos, and freaks (and I mean that in the best possible way) could be themselves without having to deal with the "normal" people who would condemn them. By doing the show just for themselves, the club isn't "hiding" from the world, they're celebrating who they are ''to themselves'' in a private moment where no one is going to judge them.
* So, it's all right for Mike Chang to say tranny, but in Sweet Transvestite, the word transexual gets changed to [[strike: sensational]] sin-sational? Aside from making the song sound downright odd, it's riddled with UnfortunateImplications.
** I think that was more of a case of TheCoverChangesTheGender. Mercedes already is a girl, so she's not a transsexual. Not that that makes much more sense...
*** But in that case, she's not a transvestite either...
** It's GameplayAndStorySegregation for television. Mike Chang can say tranny ''on the show'' because there isn't any rule that says he can't (and even if there was, Glee has gotten away with saying "fag" several times in a row, albeit in a dramatic context). The words of Sweet Transvestite (and, presumably, Touch a Touch a) were changed because there is no way ''in story'' that a high school would be allowed to do Rocky Horror if they weren't. The reason they're still like that on the EP is that the songs that are released are the same recordings used in the show itself, so it is difficult to change them unless an alternate take was being used. The ''show'' can say "transexual," but the ''characters'' can't perform it that way.
*** As noted above, the songs get played on the radio. Apparently, you can't say transexual on the radio. You can say whatever you want (more or less) on television. It did make the song sound absurd, though.
*** Of course it's a MASSIVE wallbanger and a case of Did Not Do The Research when you think about the fact that Transexual is a PLANET, not a condition.
*** The difference is, whenever "fag" has been said, it's been treated as a bad thing to say and a big deal. "Tranny" wasn't treated as a slur at all.
*** Whether a planet or a state of being, it's still not really something most high schools would allow to be said in front of a paying audience full of parents and alumni. As for the difference between "fag" and "tranny," it's unfortunate, but "fag" is NOT something that can be said on television without ''serious'' repercussions if it goes south and "tranny" has no such taboo right now. An unfair double standard? Yes, but not one that people would call them on hard enough to change.
**** There was no way to adress the issue like they did with "fag" because there aren't any transexual characters in the show. Any attempt to talk about it would have been ridiculously forced in. You can say that they shouldn't have used the word (though since the characters are highschool students it seems pretty realistic) but if they actually stopped the show for a few minutes to have a talk about respecting trans folks, trust me, you would be complaining even more about the awful writing.
***** Why did it need to be written in in the first place? The writers *chose* to put it in, when it would have been just as easy to have him say 'transvestite'. THAT'S the issue. It's gratuitous. Besides, a pointed look from Will and Mike saying 'er, transvestite' would actually have been enough to negate it a bit.
**** This troper would like to point out that there are many people who have no idea 'tranny' is an insult, and think that it's the legitimate term to refer to trans people. This troper would know, until last summer she was one of them.
* The very conveniently forgotten Santana and Brittany are fighting plot from the previous episode.
** I mean REALLY.
** Have you ever met teenagers? My friend and I can go from "I hate you so much I hope you die" to "Hey, lets go get some smoothies and go halloween shopping after school" in ''one day''. This takes place at least a few days or at most a few weeks after "Duets", so they might have, if nothing else, suppressed the issue for the sake of their friendship.
*** no, there is NO excuse for the show to just drop the issue, it really did have the potential for a great story arc, but they just cut if off. And I AM a teenager, so I'm quite sure that just forgetting that you were mad at a friend ISN'T NATURAL, and is ''not'' a common occurrence.
**** Well, Santana and Brittany more or less live in a whole MeanGirls kind of school environment. Arguments about relationships are probably a dime a dozen, and theirs wasn't even that big a deal (we mostly just saw Brit be upset at Santana, more than the other way around) in the grand scheme of things. What will possibly happen is that they've made up on the surface or are just not talking about it and the deeper issues will come out again some other time.
* Will asks Emma to help him practice a song. Okay. But why does he only have about 2 lines in said song? It doesn't make any sense to have to practice somthing when HE ISN'T THE ONE SINGING.
** He was flat-out trying to get in her panties.
** There are other reasons to rehearse something for a musical other than singing. Choreo and blocking being the other big two. Yes, this is a flimsy justification for getting Emma to sing it, but I think that's what Will was referring to when he asked for help.
* Which brings to discussion my main beef with the episode Will in general. Talk about TookALevelInJerkass, his storyline was just plain uncomfortable. I can understand him being jealous, but going through such measure just to win Emma over, especially after he promised earlier in the season to back off out of respect, was a massive WallBanger. Honestly, the way he was treating Carl, Will came off as a spoiled child who wasn't getting his way.
** He was acting more like an only child who just had a baby brother brought home from the hospital. His whole deal with Carl helping Emma get better is not that HE is the one who wants to do it, it's that he was the one who WAS doing it. Think back to the chalk dust moment from early in the first season, or even the gum on her shoe in the pilot. Will is scared that Carl will replace him in Emma's life. Does it justify the lengths he went to this episode? No, not at all. But it helps explain them a bit better.
* The fact that while Will sang Touch-A with Emma, if they had gone through with the show he would have sung it with Rachel.
** Chances are that scene would've been cut had the play went on. Remember, Sue was doing extensive cuts. That scene was probably just meant to play up all the {{UST}} between Will and Emma.
** Out of universe, they needed to make a way for Jayma Mays to sing Touch-a because she sang it for her original audition. Unfortunately, Getting Emma to sing is one of the harder things to do because there is usually no real reason for her to do so. Notice that of the three songs she's sung so far (I Could Have Danced All Night, Like a Virgin, and Touch-a Touch-a Touch-a Touch Me) two of them were at Will's urging, and one was a dream sequence.
* Did anyone else find Will incredibly creepy this episode? Never mind his jealousy over Emma and Carl, but just the way he acted towards the students during the episode. 'Your body is fine, Sam' smacks of UnfortunateImplications and him throwing himself into a student performance (as a half naked man) is even worse. Also, it really felt like he was manipulating Emma into singing 'Touch-A, Touch-A, Touch Me' since he [i]knows[/i] she's a bit of a push over and he knows she's really into Carl. Please, I'll take him rapping over this new development any day.
** Yeah he was being creepy. In the case of the students, he really didn't care so much about the play itself since he was just using it to impress Emma so he was really more Nonchalant with them. But yea, he went overboard being a ManipulativeBastard.
* If it's inappropriate for a sixteen-year-old to play a nearly-naked hunk who has lots of [[strike: sex]][[{{Bowdlerization}} suggestive situations]] in a school play, how is it ''less'' inappropriate for the teacher in his late 30s to play it, especially opposite a student who had intentionally put herself in compromising situations with him the previous year? I get that Schue misunderstood Sam, or possibly understood his problem with playing Rocky ''too well'' and only bothered to fix the symptoms (but not... ... ...the cause), but making a longer pair of shorts and giving Sam some more encouragement would have been ''much'' better, in so many ways, than just taking the part for himself.
** As far as I could tell, Will taking the part had absolutely nothing to do with Sam and everything to do with Will. It wasn't leaping into the breach, it was stealing the limelight.
* Sam's behaviour: He seems almost dangerously obsessed with the way he looks and being popular. I understand not wanting to be an outcast in a school you just transferred to, but really... I can't remember the exact wording, but he said something about feeling guilty for eating Ranch Doritos, which is an attitude that strikes me as pretty unhealthy.
** I thought it was pretty clearly spelled out that he had a dysmorphic disorder. I'm just hoping that they make something of it instead of declare it cured because he "was asked to be June in the 'Men of [=McKinley=] High' calendar".
* So it's okay for a high school student (an a boy initially) to play Frank-N-Furter but not the Criminologist?! And as it was mentioned above, Will as Rocky would be unbelievably innappropriate.
* Also they had to change the lyrics for harmless words but they kept in students in their underwear, even when it's obviously making the kid uncomfortable? Or how about that Finn is so worried about being in his underwear but not that he's playing a guy who gets seduced by another man or performs in a Cabaret show in drag.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Never Been Kissed]]
* Does Will's attitude in this episode not bother anyone else? Like...gay bashing is something Kurt needs to let roll off his back. But the football coach feels unattractive and so the Glee kids need to be berated for hurting her feelings. Just...really Will? You can do something about Kurt's situation and yet you just...don't. What an asshole.
** This Troper never thought of it that way. To me, he just seemed surprised because Kurt had previously never let the bullies get to him. But thinking about it... If Will has known about the bullies for a while, why hasn't he done anything?
* Um, has no one told Will that there's a lot more to a first kiss than just putting lips together? I figured Beiste would freak out when he kissed her since, I'm assuming, there's no romance between them and it'd be a bit hollow. Wouldn't you want your first kiss to mean something, rather than it just be out of pity?
** Yeah, I brought it up after watching the episode. "You're a great woman, beautiful on the inside ''and'' the outside, and any guy would be lucky to want you." *kiss* "[[MoodWhiplash By the way, I'm not attracted to you.]]" I described it as "one of Schue's half-baked plans that shouldn't work and often don't" (in addition to mentioning that Schue seems to have been underdosing on his common-sense replacement pills lately).
** Eh, he doesn't say he's not attracted to her, but rather that he's still in love with Emma. He probably isn't, but at least he has an excuse. If they did go out, it would just be a repeat of Emma and Ken (does anyone think they might bring him back to pair with Beiste?).
** It may not have been motivated by attraction, but it was still a romantic gesture in an emotionally charged moment. Will was helping her cross the threshold. After 40 years, it would probably be nearly impossible for Beiste to bring herself to kiss someone, so Will took the decision away from her to show her that it's not ''as'' big a deal as she's worked it up to be. He was giving her the confidence to go out and do it for real.
* Why couldn't Azimio be the one loaded with {{gayngst}}? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for this new plot thread of Karofsky being gay and attracted to Kurt, and I can't wait to see where it goes. But still, it'd be nice if this show had more than one compelling black character.
** I wondered where Azimio ''was'' for this episode. They had been hanging out together pretty much every time either of them gave Kurt or Finn a hard time, and then all of a sudden Azimio disappears for an entire episode (or more, depending on how soon he reappears). ([[EpilepticTrees It's still possible that]] Azimio is gay and interested in Karofsky, and conveniently missed Karofky's coming out to Kurt and Kurt talking about it specifically to increase the {{gayngst}}).
** Considering that every time ThisTroper turns on TBS the actor who plays Azimio is in a promo for the new show Glory Daze, I have a feeling that it was merely scheduling conflicts
** I've heard that Karofsky is going to have to face the consequences of his bullying. If that's the case, then having it be Azimio would have added the dimension of accusing a black guy of being prejudiced, which would open a huge can of worms that I'm sure the writers don't want to be part of the story they're telling. If it's Karofsky that is gay, the story can go ahead with what it is, rather than having to deal with the added dimension of Azimio's race.
*** Do you really think there are no homophobic black people? On paper, it makes sense for someone from a minority to know better than exercise blind prejudice against others, but sadly that's not the case in real life. Most people get offended if you ''dare'' make such comparisons, no matter how legit your point might be.
*** What I meant is that, ''from a writing standpoint'' Azimio's race would have to be addressed if they went with him over Karofsky. The writers obviously want to focus exclusively on the bullying aspect ''without'' other factors coming into play.
* Karofsky's always sort of had a larger role than Azimio anyway. He got a full introduction while Azimio sort of filtered in.
* Um...since when did Artie want Brittany back?
** Since having sex with her didn't get Tina to run right back to him, and he remembered that Brittany is an attractive girl who might be interested in dating and/or copulating with him again? He only broke up with her because he was upset about her [[ValuesDissonance being inconsiderate of feelings of which she was unaware]].
* That Puck apparently has no reaction to Quinn and Sam dating. I mean he was obviously in hell in juvie and his life is a mess and to top it off the girl he's supposedly in love with has started something up with a different guy. I mean, you'd think he'd at least mention it.
** Because he was -scared- shitless by juvie and was more interested in not going back there versus more mundane things at the moment. I mean, when getting your nipple ring ripped out is the least of your worries in a place, you're probably not going to be thinking "Gee... my girlfriend is with someone else."
* Because of this episode, there will be tons and tons of Karofsky/Kurt shippers, I mean, I willing to support the ship IF the show give me a reason to it. But, the shippers will simple jump at it before any character development justify it. >:(
** I agree (and "will be" nothing, there already were as of late the night of the episode's airing), but this isn't [[ShipToShipCombat Complaining About Ships You Don't Like]]- [[TakeItToTheForums this page]] may be more relevant. Until/Unless Karofsky/Kurt starts happening in canon with or without CharacterDevelopment, there's no platform on which that point can stand as a full-fledged JBM.
** From what I gather in the forums, the Kurt/Blaine shippers think Karofsky would likely continue to physically and emotionally abuse Kurt even after they started dating, while Kurt/Karofsky shippers think Blaine is great and all, but a little ''too'' perfect and thus dramatically uninteresting. Time will tell.
** And then us Kurt/Sam shippers are waiting [[strike: patiently]] for all the between season hints, and the blatant teasing from "Duets" to pay off.
** Heh, I have seen ships based on even less than that. And it would be far for the more cracky ship on the show
** Original guy to post the IJBM, my actual problem is that I know that there already are die hard kurt/karofsky shippers, after a single FORCED kiss.
** What bugs this troper is that people are using Karofsky's sexuality to redeem him. Just because he's gay doesn't mean he's not a bully and a homophobe.
** True, but it does give us some insight into why he picks on Kurt and the other Glee clubbers. He still has to ''work'' to redeem himself, and made absolutely no effort to do so at the end of the episode. He might just need time to sort out his feelings. I'm just hoping they actually go somewhere with this, instead of having everything go back to "normal" as soon as Azimio comes back. If nothing else, Kurt could at least blackmail Karofsky into leaving him alone.
** I agree. It's by no means the show's fault for clearly, Kurt never wanted to reciprocate the kiss and is horrified by his death threat. So far, the threat may be a Moral Event Horizon. But of course, redemption is not impossible. Well, let's wait.
** Max Adler (the guy who plays him) has more or less said it's not going to happen. Still, a lot of people like effed up pairings in fanfic ''because'' they're effed up- not necessarily because they think it's healthy or a good idea.
* [[DoubleStandard Tina never apologized]] [[RuleOfPerception onscreen]]. Also, Mike didn't really do any talking, which brings up Kurt and Artie (and, [[NotMeThisTime only technically]], Puck) being involved in the "apology" mashup/contest with a part equal to or greater than Mike's, but at least he was involved in the apology activity.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The Substitute]]
* So, did Mercedes' obsession with fried food a) seem to come out of nowhere, b) seem a ''[[{{Understatement}} little]]'' [[{{UnfortunateImplications}} tasteless?]]
** I agree that the execution wasn't the greatest, but I think the idea is that Mercedes is getting jealous because her best friend is spending more and more time with a new love interest (we've all been there before), and is using food to cope.
* Santana scoffed at Holly knowing who Cee-Lo Green is, making it clear that Miss Lopez DidNotDoTheResearch. Cee-Lo debuted as part of Goodie Mob in 1994, meaning it's entirely possible Holly liked him since ''she'' was a teenager.
* Blaine, for making this male troper wish he was straight.
** Why, exactly? Sure he's a bit of a MartyStu but he's only been around for two episodes.
** Also, we're mostly looking at him from the perspective of Kurt(who obviously idolizes him) or through the eyes of Mercedes in which case it was mostly 'Gay gay gay gay gay gay. Gay? Gay!'. I'm willing to let Kurt have a minor victory here and be bloody damn happy until all the drama and character development comes in.
** [[strike: Are you male and wish you could tell him to StopBeingStereotypical, or are you female and think he's [[StupidSexyFlanders awesome]]? Context, please.]] He's not really any more stereotypical than Kurt, he's just smarmy (from my point of view). Also a bit dense for not noticing that Mercedes was looking left out, [[strike: and that "What's your favourite Vogue cover from the last year?" wouldn't be a fun game for her]](Never mind, Kurt said it first, and it's a reasonable assumption for Blaine to make that Mercedes' best friend would know what topics she would enjoy), but he's really not that bad (if you factor in the previous episode), especially considering (as an above troper put it) a lot of it was through the eyes of [[UnreliableNarrator Mercedes]]. He was actually pretty AmbiguouslyGay on average (depending on how you add it up, accounting for Mercedes' biased viewpoint, and considering he's only been in two episodes so far).
* Am I correct in assuming that Karofsky meant he would kill Kurt if Kurt told anyone, rather than if Kurt kept his mouth shut? Karofsky worded that in a very confusing and most likely inaccurate way, which is understandable (given his emotional state), but certainly confusing. (In addition, there ''is'' the possibly of a FreudianSlip having happened).
** "Tell anyone, and I'll kill you." Sounds pretty straightforward here. And not in the joking "OMG I'm gonna kill you!" hyperbole teenagers are prone to. I'm actually worried for Kurt's safety here.
* Kurt's treatment of Mercedes bugged the hell out of me. It never occurred to him that he was neglecting Mercedes to be with Blaine (especially when this was the exact same thing he was mad at his father for doing with Finn), and his way of making up to her amounted to "YouNeedToGetLaid (and set her up with a guy based solely on his race), and btw quit eating so much." Christ, with friends like these, who needs the Cheerios?
** TruthInTelevision, so very much. As a very recent ex-highschooler who's been in Mercedes' shoes, that scene was painful to watch. There's a reason why this troper refers to teenagers (herself included) as being in the Stupid Years, and none of the glee kids are exempt from being idiot teens.
** True, But what really bugs me is that while Mercedes is realizing she shouldn't use Kurt as a stand-in for an actual boyfriend, not once did he wonder if ''maybe'' he was neglecting her. The show has a bad habit of making Kurt right by default.
*** And the fans are developing an habit of making Kurt wrong by default. Yes, Kurt and Mercedes are BFFs. but they're not each other ONLY friend. Mercedes has also both Tina and Quinn, but no one seems to blame them for neglecting Mercedes. [[FridgeBrilliance Could it be that Mercedes was actually feeling out because all her friends were getting in relationships?]]
*** Tina and Quinn have been in and out of relationships the whole time Mercedes has known them. Regardless, she's not as close to them as she is with Kurt. They always "had" each other, so it's understandable that she'd be upset when he starts hanging with someone new who can potentially become closer to him than she ever could. As for fans making Kurt wrong by default, what forums and trope pages are ''you'' reading? The logical loops and hurdles most [[FanNickname Kurtsies]] jump so that he is never wrong can be truly astounding. Even when I'm on his side, I find the few critical voices a breath of fresh air.
**** Mercedes invited Quinn to live with her, and Quinn asked her to be with her when her baby was born. Tina and Mercedes were always shown together in the first season. (Then again, she never had a crush on either of them, so there's that too). And I'm reading this and other forums, where they always demonize Kurt for things that he does, or ''doesn't''. Kurt has become such a polarized character that either you try to justify every of his actions, or blame him for everything that happens, and both extremes are wrong. Yes, he has some fault, but not ALL of it.
** While I'm not condoning Kurt's neglect, clearly his facial expression after Mercedes ordered Tator Tots at Breadstix showed that he was worried for Mercedes's well-being. Though he does not bring it up in front of Blaine. But yes, I do hope Kurt won't become the writers' pet.
* How did Kurt set up a date between Mercedes and Anthony??? I mean, really?? Does he has magical match-making skills??
** Why is Anthony not Matt? seriously, what the did Dijon do?
*** Not sure, Dijon was apparently fired. They probably needed to make way for more characters.
** Possibly Anthony had some interest in Mercedes. He did seem interest in her.
* It seem really unfair to anyone else to bitch Will out for the Journey thing, at last Regionals? That happened because of Don't Stop Believing. Which was an important song to the ''kids''; Will wasn't even there when they first started singing it, he walked in midway through.
** At this point it's pretty obvious that certain things are not actually happening or at least are distorted through a character's POV. Will most likely never actually pushed Journey on the kids (other than their set at regionals, which was appropriate for the situation) and it's been shown before that his musical choices are actualy fairly broad.
* How was Mercedes using Kurt as a 'stand in'? Since when does wanting to hang around with your best friend mean you're using them 'instead of' a boy/girlfriend? Mercedes didn't want to do romantic-like things with Kurt, she just wanted to hang out. WTF was he on about?
** Now that Kurt's got an almost-boyfriend he thinks he knows everything there is to know about relationships. Unfortunately, I think the writers might agree with him.
*** Kurt was actually making some sense there. One of the possible downsides of the FagHag relationship is how she might use her gay friend as an emotional stand-in for an actual boyfriend (and if his love life isn't particularly successful, he might do the same to her), and might resent any man he starts dating, for "stealing" him.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: "Poor Karofsky"?]]
* Are you kidding me? Alright, I'll admit that "Never Been Kissed" fleshed out Karofsky's character from more than just a walking plot device for Kurt, and has made him believable. But it's utterly screwed up how some people are jumping to his defense all out of nowhere. "Poor boy, he just wanted Kurt so bad"? "Poor thing :("? '''"The torturer becomes the tortured?" ''' So it's alright for him to physically, verbally and sexually torment Kurt because of his {{Gayngst}}? And not only that, all those people who are now shipping this- did they totally miss that "Hey Homo" scene in "The Subsitute?" If Kurtofsky's going anywhere, it's not going to be [[{{SexIsEvilAndIAmHorny}} anywhere pretty.]] I'll wait until there's been more episodes to consider how sympathetic Karofsky truly is- but in the meantime, people need to stop making Kar-Kar into the next DracoInLeatherPants.
** Preach it! I was annyoed at the moment that I saw the kiss, because I knew exactly this would happen, they would over-woobiefy him into some kind of bizarre martyr.
** I agree! It's by no means the writers' fault because Kurt clearly was disguisted and horrified by the kiss and the death threat, the writers don't seem to intend to give Karofsky much favor other than some viewers' sympathy. The death threat, so far, is pretty much is MoralEventHorizon. But let's wait.
** I disagree. The things Karofsky has done do not differ that much from things some Glee members have done, and they got redeemed, and act "nice" now, so why can't Karosfky? Puck wanted to tip over a porta-potty containing Artie, yet in Never Been Kissed they are somehow friends. Finn threw Kurt in a dumpster, and yet Kurt crushed on him and they'll be step-brothers. In the same episode as Karofsky's death-threat you had Santana trying to attack Rachel, yet that is overlooked.

*** Except most bullying in Glee is overly ridiculous and exaggerated to the point where it's often played up for laughs. IIRC, Kurt's dumpster scene was not only in the (more comedic) pilot, but also jokingly portrayed him as being so casual about it at this point, that he carefully folds up his designer jacket and hands it to one of the jocks to hold onto in the meantime. Karofsky's bullying on the other hand has been straight-up drama and made Kurt's life living hell as an ongoing plot-point since Season 1, so you can't compare it.
*** First, Seriously, using Santanna as example?? Second, while you can argue that the Glee kids might not be that good, this doesn't make Karosfky better, he still a bully, there are plenty of kids in the closet that don't actively try to torment the ones that are out. Third, and most important, none of the glee kids ever actually made a serious death threat.
**** Santana's a great example as she admitted in "Duets" that she does things ''just'' to be a bitch.
** (copied from something I read on live journal) Keep in mind the enviroment and situation Karofsky lives in. Imagine how Karofsky must feel right now, he's a gay in a gay-unfriendly enviroment, an extrmely gay unfriendly enviroment at that. He was probably raised to hate gays, to think that they're wrong, part of why he goes to such lengths to make himself seem nothing but straight. If people find out he's gay, he's going to have to deal with shit from his team mates, his family, his friends. And part of it is, it's going to be worse for Karofsky if people find out he's gay. Everyone knew that Kurt was gay long before he came out of the closet, but Karofsky has been able to decive people into thinking he's straight, and if people found out he wasn't, he'll go from his top dog position to the bottom of the pyramid. And what if his most likey anti-gay parents found out? you remember what happened to Quinn when her father found out she was pregnant, right? I'd imagine it would be something like that if not worse. And now someone knows he's gay, someone who does not like and actually has a pretty damn good reason to hate his guts. And maybe this guy is going to take vengence, and eye for an eye? Karofsky doesn't know, but he can't stop bullying Kurt or else something will look suspicious. Considering all the things that could happen to him if he's found out, it's not a far leap to threaten Kurt's life out of fear. But when you really think about it, Karofsky is going to be the one to loose his life if people find out he's gay, not Kurt.
* Dave represents a lot of closeted homosexuals who aren't in a transparent closet and who don't have a dad as awesome as Burt or friends that would accept him for who he is. There are a lot of Dave's out there, full of self-loathing and fear, and who do stupid things because of that that have all the right to be forgiven if they compensate for what they've done.
** Remember, it's not the writers or producers who make him out to be a Woobie. If anything it looks like they're trying to keep that from happening (He has a FreudianExcuse, but he's still a total and mostly unsympathetic JerkAss). It's the [[FanDumb fans]] that try to twist everything around to make him some kind of tortured hero.
** I think that is okay to woobiefy Dave a little, is when people handwave his past bullying and try to make him '''only''' a Woobie that I see a problem, the guy is a JerkAssWoobie with strong emphasis in the JerkAss part.
* It bugs me that people are complaining about Karofsky, but will give other characters a free pass (Puck anyone?)
** Puck is a jerk because he feels that the world has given up on him and he wants to be noticed. Karofsky is an ass because he's afraid everyone else will find out that he's gay. They may seem similar in their motivations, but Puck has never threatened anyone's life.
* It could be ValuesDissonance on my part, but everyone getting so worked up over the death threat seems odd to me. I've had people threaten to kill me and have threatened to kill people; most of the time it was done affectionately, although, there have been times it was done in anger. I've never been scared of those people, and I doubt any of them were scared of me. The fact that Dave has physically slammed Kurt into lockers, thrown him into dumpsters, slushied him, verbally belittled him, and stolen property seems much more serious. I'm not including the sexual assault because Kurt has made it clear he, at the moment, is going to keep that to himself. Where I went to school, if a teacher heard a kid threaten to kill another kid, the teacher may or may not scold the one who made the threat. If a kid went to a teacher and claimed another student had done even just one thing on the above list, things would be taken much more seriously than Glee treats most of the bullying. I guess the reason this strikes a nerve is because Glee often trivalises bullying, presenting it as funny or as hey-that's-life-deal, but it and the audience both overdramatises an action that many friends, friendly classmates, and loving families engage in.
** The difference is that it was a legitimate threat. Karofsky's tone of voice was ''not'' that of someone who was kidding around. He was pretty clear that if Kurt told anyone, he would definitely (if not kill him) cause him ''serious'' harm.
*** My point is coming across badly, but: I do understand Dave's threat was wrong. I have no problem with Kurt taking it seriously and being written as terrified. It wasn't a joke or a spur-of-the moment fit of anger that will soon be forgotten. He has hurt Kurt before and was threatening even more harm. However, it angers me that many people either find the bullying funny or are apathetic to it but get so worked up over something that, devoid of proper context, is frankly mild. Dave wasn't even touching Kurt; he didn't threaten to rape, waterboard, and kill Kurt by [insert gruesome method]. He said, paraphrased, "If you tell anyone, I'll kill you." I've been complaining about the show's attempts to trivialise, minimise, and at times, glorify bullying ever since it came out, and I feel that people should have been more condemning of Dave and the other bullies long before the threat was ever uttered.
*** Before I start, let me get something clear: Glee has NEVER glorified bullying. The only sympathetic character who regularly bullies people is Puck, because he feels like the world has given up on him and stopped paying attention, a form of social bullying itself. And Artie's helping him move on from that anyway. Now that that's out of the way, the reason the show has never condemned bullying in the past is because the characters have usually just shrugged it off. Finn's initial problems with Karofsky and the plot of ''Theatricality'' notwithstanding, the glee kids never seemed to care about being slushied etc. past the fact that it meant they were unpopular. Kurt himself was so nonchalant about being tossed in a dumpster early on that his only concern was for his jacket and/or bag. However, this season has made it clear that [[ItGotWorse it's getting worse.]] Karofsky is specifically targeting Kurt, and his bullying has become much more brutal in nature. People are latching on to the threat because it's one of the very few things he's actually ''said'' to Kurt. His abuse is almost entirely physical, so the one bit of ''verbal'' abuse that Kurt actually takes seriously and is scared of is easier to talk about because you can say more about it than "Karofsky threw Kurt against the locker even harder than usual that time." You say that people should have been condemning Karofsky (I refuse to use his first name) since the beginning, but it's difficult to really do that when he a) appeared very irregularly (only three episodes in the first season), and b) the other characters either didn't care or (in Finn's case) stood up to him. No one EVER said that what he was doing wasn't wrong, but his victims mostly ignored him, so the audience did too. The first time anyone even ''considered'' the idea that Karofsky might not be so bad (which, for the record, I find ridiculous) was when he kissed Kurt. It was in the very next episode that he issued the now-infamous death threat, so I really don't know where you got the impression that people were trivializing, minimizing, or glorifying Karofsky's actions. I hope I've made myself clear that, for the first two, it was because he was seen as little more than a pest, and for the last that it never happened to begin with (until the FanDumb saw ''Never Been Kissed'').
*** I use Dave instead of Karofsky due to the fact that Dave is so much easier to type. If I use his last name, it becomes a case of having to look it up every single time or trying to remember not to copy anything else so that I can paste it. To me, it doesn't matter if the ones being bullied take it that seriously or not. A person shouldn't have their physical automony disrepected without a very good reason nor should they be verbally belittled. I once read about a girl who was thrown through a window by her father; she didn't think it was a big deal, but most people correctly realised it was. I'd also argue that while the kids are good at shaking the bullying off, there have been signs that it does get to them and that their desire for popularity is more due to the fact that the popular kids aren't put through the things they are. As far as glorifying bullying, well, I think the fact Glee tries to present most cases of bullying as either funny or as something that isn't a big deal does in a way glorify it. I've read message boards and recaps where people talked about how funny Kurt being thrown into a dumpster was, how cool Sue and Puck were, and how Quinn and the others had a point when they cyber-bullied Rachel. Bullying is a bigger deal than many people are willing to realise and admit. I also believe that jumping on a death threat, which, many people in healthy relationships are guilty of, rather than actual physical and verbal abuse is odd and a show of bad priorties.
*** Working backwards: A death threat ''is'' verbal abuse unless it is ''very obviously'' used teasingly between friends. The internet turns people into assholes, that's what we call GIFT. Quinn and the others did NOT have a point when they were cyber-bullying Rachel, her voice is spectacular. Sue, while a bully, is also as close to a regular villain as the show gets, as well as being both insightful and genuinely funny. She gets immunity from the fans because she's so cartoonish that it really doesn't matter what she says. It doesn't hurt that Jane Lynch is just so damn likeable. Puck is not especially "cool" [[DracoInLeatherPants but he is attractive,]] which is where that comes from. Kurt being thrown into a dumpster is funny both because of how nonchalant ''he'' is about it (he practically helps them), ''and'' how nonchalant the other guys are about Schue walking past them. It's the same principle that makes the old Looney Tunes shorts with the wolf and the sheepdog so funny; they're going to do unspeakable things to each other throughout the day, but are chummy towards each other after the whistle blows. It's so absurd it makes us laugh. The fact that you can point out that the kids sometimes show that it gets to them proves that the show ''doesn't'' "make light" of bullying. Also, you're misusing "glorifying." It doesn't give the bullies cart blanche, but it ''does'' matter that the kids just ignore them, because if you ignore the bullies they lose. Haven't you seen the PSAs? Karofsky's issues turned out to be a little deeper than most bullies, but we didn't know that until very recently. Being accepted is a factor in their wanting to be popular, but it's also the major driving factor behind ''everyone'' desire to be popular. Come on, who ''didn't'' felt like an outcast in high school? It's typical high school behaviour. Parental defenestration is something very different from high school bullying. Don't get me wrong, neither of them is a good thing, but they are very different (although I thank you for allowing me to use the word "defenestration" in an actual conversation). And finally, I have a weird thing about names. Some people need to be called by their last name, and some need to be called by ''both'' their first and last names together (and not to differentiate between people with the same first name, just because). Calling Karofsky by his first name just seems wrong to me. It would be like referring to the characters of House by their first names. There's nothing really ''wrong'' with calling him Dave, I just don't think it fits his character very well (might also have something to do with playing a character named Dave with the complete opposite personality for a drama project in high school, but that's only a little bit of it).
*** No, I haven't seen any recent PSAs. I usually watch shows on the internet. The shows I do watch on TV are mostly British, and I'm not sure if the UK is big on PSAs or not. Whether Rachel had a brilliant voice or a horrid one doesn't matter; Quinn and the others had no right to insult her and/or declare she should be sterilised. The thing is, with the exception of Finn and Puck, who both pretty much stopped bullying the Glee kids once they joined Glee, the bullies and Glee kids aren't friendly chums who just try to cartoonishly kill one another during the day. The fact the bullies are so unconcerned about Will being nearby is a big part of my issues. "Furt" showed that Will is willing to help when he actually realises bullying is happening, but he doesn't often realise it's happening. The fact he doesn't is played as funny, but I find it sad and get angry at it trying to play it as funny. Teachers are supposed to keep students safe and, if not happy, emotionally secure. It's a job they fail at so often in real life, either deliberately or due to circumstances not that are not their fault, that to see it played as funny can be triggering for many people. I guess the fact bullying happens frequently in real life while animals trying to kill one another with dynamite doesn't is what makes me able to laugh at the latter while getting worked up over the former. As for the death threat, I'll admit that I've frequently made and had them directed at me. When I first saw that scene, I rolled my eyes. Then, I remembered that Dave has been a complete bully and wasn't joking or in the same boat as a kid who, late for class, muttered, "I'll kill you," after being bumped into and trying desperately to grab her flying papers. The latter isn't what I'd classify as bullying unless the person actually starts harrassing the person who bumped into her. Still, even acknowledging the wrongness of his threat, I tend to take the physical abuse and degrotartory remarks more seriously. That's just me.
*** Sorry, the PSA reference was probably not very helpful. It refers to a Canadian add from like, the 90s. They always started on a tight shot of the bully's face as he harassed his victim. The camera would slowly pull back until, at the very end, you realize that there is no one else around. The narration says something like "If everyone walked away, bullying just seems...stupid." Hope that clears it up. My point when I said that Rachel has a great voice was that Quinn and the others did not have a point when they were cyber-bullying her. You said that you had seen people say they did, and I was illustrating how those people were wrong. Finn stopped, and was pretty reluctant to begin with, but Puck and Artie had a conversation during "Never Been Kissed" where Artie asked if Puck could push him down the back staircase because there were less people there. Puck apparently still picks on people, but the difference is, we know his home life isn't so great. This doesn't excuse his actions, but it explains them and gives his character depth (and Artie has been helping him with his CharacterDevelopment, so it's going away). The cartoon reference ''is'' more accurate than you would think. The characters of Glee are basically living cartoons. They're larger than life, and more stereotypical than the stereotypes they're based on. Will (at the start of the series) was such an everyman that people found him bland, Rachel's diva behaviour was so over the top that people found her incredibly annoying, Kurt isn't just gay, he's '''GAY''' which many people found offensive, and Sue is so mean that it CrossesTheLineTwice because ''no one'' could get away with half of what she does in real life. Over time, the characters mellowed out a bit, and people got used to the show being a little over the top, so we tend not to notice as much now as we did in the initial thirteen episodes. The Looney Tunes thing wasn't about the actual things they do (P.S. Sam and Ralph never used dynamite, Sam usually just punched Ralph in the face or redirected his traps when Ralph tried to steal the sheep; you might be thinking of the Road Runner shorts) but about their reactions at the end of the day ("Good night, Sam" "See you tomorrow, Ralph") after literally just being mortal enemies. The situation is not exactly the same, but the parallels are there. Yes, bullying happens in real life, but the bullies are rarely courteous enough to hold someone's coat so it doesn't get dirty. ''That's'' the humour. Finally, the key thing to remember is that shows evolve. The reaction to a gag in a show's first few episodes shouldn't really be used as a precedent for a major storyline in the second season. Glee started as a dark comedy, but it has moved into the territory of a more traditional (if musical) dramedy. The tone of the show has changed since the original dumpster-ing, so our expectations of the characters should change with it. And to actually address what I think was your original point: People didn't focus on the bullying in the first season much because the ''show'' didn't focus on the bullying much. This isn't because it was trying to trivialize bullying, but because it had Quinn's pregnancy to worry about. The pregnancy arc was the through-line of Season One, so all other stories took a backseat until their day in the limelight. The Karofsky arc ''is'' the through-line of Season Two, so the issue is getting much more focus. "The Substitute" was the first time that something Karofsky ''said'' had actually scared Kurt. You can tell during "Never Been Kissed" and even before that the physical abuse is starting to get to him, but it's very difficult to discuss intentions behind physical abuse because it's pretty obvious what they are. Because of what Kurt knows about Karofsky, he knows that the threat was serious, so it frightened him, making it the easiest and most recent example of the bullying. People aren't really ignoring what came before, but what has happened most recently is easiest to talk about. (P.S. Thank you so much for arguing with me. I've written university papers shorter than this discussion, but none are as fun as having an actual debate)
*** They said Quinn had a point in saying that Rachel should be sterilised. You're right, I was thinking of Road Runners; I don't know anything about the other with Sam and Ralph. Thank you for arguing so politely with me. I love debate but rarely engage in it. I usually end up opposite of someone who either directly attacks me or makes me feel as if my opinions have no value.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Furt (episode)]]
!!Kurt went from being a pretty well-rounded character into full-on GodModeSue this episode.
* The entire Glee Club held an intervention to protect him, plus he was able to whip up the entire wedding all by himself and Sue went completely {{OOC}} just to stick up for him. Plus his GayAesop at the end felt even more {{Anvilicious}} than normal for the series.
** In what universe are you living where Kurt is a GodModeSue? God Mode Sue is so powerful that ''they'' need to save everyone ''else's'' asses. The other glee clubbers held the intervention of their own accord, Kurt had nothing to do with that. And they did it because he is their friend and he was being hurt. The wedding was not extravagant, it seemed pretty small (probably thanks to Finn pointing out things like the doves) and he said that he had wedding catalogues under his bed, so it's not unlikely that he would just pick what was best for the time of year. Burt and Carol seem like the type to just let him do whatever. Sue was not out of character. She gave her reason for being so sympathetic: her sister. Add that to the fact that a death threat was issued and it was obvious that the situation called for her to actually be serious about it. We've seen similar behaviour in short bursts from Sue, but it usually involves just Will and not any of the students. And finally, the episode did not have a "Gay Aesop" it had an Anti-Bullying and Acceptance Aesop. I believe that's everything.
** Okay, so Kurt's not a God Mode Sue, he's a BlackHoleSue instead. All of reality warped to be about him this episode. For God's sake, Carol--whose first husband was killed in the army before their son could know his father, and hasn't dated in sixteen years--dedicated her '''wedding speech''' to Kurt. Everyone standing up to Karofsky for him was a nice touch, but everything about the wedding--from Kurt planning it, to Carol and Finn waxing poetic on how awesome he is, to the whole bloody Glee club doing a song and dance dedicated to him--was just too much. Oh, and [[ShootTheShaggyDog he ends up transferring anyway]]. I think at this point, Karofsky would know to leave Kurt alone since he almost got expelled and people are watching him now (if nothing else, it's creating tension within the football team and even Coach Bieste would step in before that goes too far). Don't get me wrong, Kurt is one of my favorite characters, and I've defended him when people complained about the focus on him this season. But "Furt" made me eat my words.
** Sorry, I still don't see it. I think I've already pointed out why Kurt planned the wedding; because they wanted to do it soon and Kurt plans (fictional) weddings for fun. He already had an autumn wedding planned, as well as clearly having the best taste out of the four of them. It's not unusual for a mixed family to make their wedding about the ''whole'' family, not just the significant other. Carol is making sure that Kurt knows she thinks that they're as good as blood related. And Finn knows that Kurt has been feeling down, so he's doing the same ''and'' apologizing for his previous behaviour at the same time. He may have been a little over-emphatic, but let's face it, Finn's kind of like that anyway. The Glee Club singing "Just the Way You Are" was an extension of that, but the camera made it pretty clear that Finn, at least, was also singing to his mother. As for Kurt transferring, the entire point of this arc is that bullying is hard to stop. The school board isn't going to do anything about Karofsky, even if he does step out of line a bit. Unless Kurt tells someone that Karofsky kissed him, he's not going to do something bad enough to make someone ''do'' something, and Kurt's obviously not willing to take that chance...yet. I don't know, I felt that this episode was probably the most "real" in a long time. The characters all seemed to behave more like ''people'' rather than living cartoons (which isn't a bad thing, that's just how they usually are).
** Speaking as someone who's been critical of Kurt in the past and DoubleStandard {{Aesop}}s, Kurt was in no form a GodModeSue or a BlackHoleSue. 1) As previous stated, the idea that Kurt was able to plan a wedding is not out of the realm of believability. Especially since he got his classmates to perform for free. Considering what little time Kurt was able to redecorate his and Finn's room, it's pretty believable that he could think up a plan for a wedding. 2) As for Sue feeling sympathy. Although she can be quite rude and condescending, she also remembered who sister being bullied for "being different." So yes, it is in her character to come to Kurt's defense in that situation because it's similar to how her own sister was bullied. As for Finn pulling out a number for Kurt. 3) ND being protective of Kurt? It's already been shown that the group is a {{Nakama}}. The guys wanted to jump Jessie last season for what he did to Rachel and later Finn and Puck vandalize their vehicles. They're not just suddenly being protective of everyone. 4) Finn's musical number was his apology. Finn had been intentionally distant and neglectful towards Kurt because he's still trying to protect his rep. So Finn rightfully apologized because he '''was''' wrong.
*** Ok, I'll concede on him planning the wedding, and I clearly stated that I had no problems with ND standing up to Karofsky. I just think Finn should have made amends with Kurt behind the scenes rather than make a whole song and dance about his greatness, and let Burt and Carol have their night. And you'd think Carol would be more focused on her husband-to-be than his kid.
*** The boy who is about to become her stepson is in the middle of a major crisis and you think she ''isn't'' going to run to his aid? If there is one thing we know about Burt Hummel, it's that his son is number 1 in his life. Accepting Kurt publicly and unconditionally is one of the greatest proofs that Carol loves Burt. As for the song and dance, Glee is a musical. That's the kind of thing the show does. If there's any way at all to fit a song in, the characters will do it.
**** Pretty much every TV show will have several episodes that focus on one character. It doesn't make them a BlackHoleSue.
**** I think they way Glee is going each season will have at least one major MarySue (or Character arc, depending on your point of view) of some fashion. In the first season it was Rachel (Kurt too, but for the most part the focus was on her). In season 2 it's clearly Kurt. Season 3 may choose to focus closely on another character and give them a ton of attention and development.
*** I most defend Kurt and feel that the ND was awesome, but good lord the wedding was awkward and weird to watch.
** Am I the only person who felt like Kurt suffered from in-universe {{Ukefication}} this episode? It's understandable that the whole Karofsky issue would upset him and reveal his vulnerabilities, but it seemed like every other scene he appeared in had him crying or otherwise looking like a delicate flower to drum up sympathy for the character. Meanwhile a lot of the other scenes looked as if they were trying to play up his innocent CuteShotaroBoy look with the lighting and angles and expressions, which ends up being a bit creepy instead now that his actor looks [[{{Bishonen}} older]]. Plus the whole "Porcelain" comment? Unless it was supposed to be massive LampshadeHanging or sarcasm he's shown himself to be anything but. I like Kurt and I would be pleased that he's getting more screen time but not if they [[CharacterDerailment derail him]] from the snarky wit that made him entertaining in the first place in order to turn him into TheMessiah.
*** Just for the record, I thought the "porcelain" thing was sort of a less-offensive synonym for, say, "pale prettyboy", like a porcelain doll, not that he was weak. Sue ''was'' basically saying that she actually respected him enough to let him choose a less hurtful nickname (than her top three), which she had never before done onscreen, which I think would go counter to her calling Kurt fragile.
** That's always bugged me about him. His character is so passive most of the time. It seems like every episode, someone is either defending him or making some heartwarming outreach to him. But the number of times he's actually done that to someone else are way fewer.
** I think some perspective is needed here. Kurt is a sixteen year old boy who is being systematically bullied violently, emotionally and in a way that resembles sexual harrassment. To say that crying is 'weak' and 'uke' and to imply that he somehow needs to be stronger is pretty insulting and victim blaming. Also, Kurt got nearly NO positive reinforcement last series outside of a few specific characters, whereas people like Finn got half the series dedicated to how awesome they are and how sad their girlfriends lying to them is and how the club literally depends on them. This series, it's his turn to have people go actually, Kurt, you're part of our family too. They're just spreading it around a bit.
** That's all true, but that still doesn't change the fact that a wedding is not the time or place to heap praises on someone besides the couple. That's ''their'' day. Social Grace 101.
*** That's true...at a normal wedding. But this is a new mixed family, and one where the kids are older. I've been to similar weddings (although, with younger children) and it's fairly normal for a fair bit of it to be about how one spouse has accepted the other's children as their own. Finn had some issues with the wedding at the start of the episode, so by calling Kurt his brother, it's a sign that yes, he is okay with Carol getting remarried. A mixed family wedding is not ''just'' about the couple, it's about the whole family.
*** After rewatching the episode, Finn's the only one who really made his speech about Kurt. Burt addressed him briefly when he was talking about the years after his wife died (which is to be expected), and Carol said something about gaining a son ''and'' a friend, but addressed most of her speech to ''Finn''. Even the first half of Finn's speech was about his mom before he kind of flipped it around to talk about his feelings about gaining a brother. And even ''that'' was to show his mom that he was okay with having a new family.
!! Rachel and Santana
* "You don't have a boyfriend on the football team, so gtfo." It's possible Rachel was still pissed at Santana for trying to claw her eyes out last ep, but that was still a cold thing to say when their primary concern was helping Kurt.
** While it was... well annoying, let's face it: It was completely in character. I was more annoyed that Mercedes wasn't invinted (or created the whole thing herself), dating a football player or not, she still suppose to be Kurt's bestfriend / FagHag.
*** True, but the point of the meeting was to get their boyfriends to pull and intervention in the locker room. Mercedes doesn't have that connection, so she wasn't invited. Which is also in-character for Rachel.
!! Quinn and Sam got engaged
* Now I get that's it's just a promise ring, so no need to point that out. But the fact that Sam got down on one knee and asked the girl he wasn't even officially dating yet (which also made no sense continuity wise but I concede) and had only known for 6 weeks and said that one day he wanted to marry her was just bizarre. And that Quinn, who is typically one of the most level-headed people on the show, agreed at the end was even weirder. Sam is a sixteen year old boy who went to an all boys school, he's not in love, he's probably just never had a serious girlfriend before! Plus that the scene before he did it involved him basically saying "I want to be popular more than anything" and that makes it seem like that's the only reason he's after Quinn. Plus previous statements from her make it seem like that's the only reason she likes him too. To top it off the way he proposed was way creepier than I think it was meant to be. Maybe they're trying for a whole CantBuyMeLove story for those two but if they are a proposal should have come much later.
** Plus what happened to the Quinn and Puck storyline. Didn't he say he loved her in Journey? Why haven't they even talked since then?
*** Because Quinn obviously doesn't feel the same way. And because Puck is dating Santana. She says so at the football girlfriend's meeting.
** If you watch the scene again, Quinn's initial reaction is to point out the same arguments as you did. It's only later that she changes her mind about wearing the ring. To this troper, Sam definitely got carried away, but he's essentially trying to say that he's going to try and take their relationship seriously. Earlier in the episode, Quinn denies that they're dating (despite all evidence to the contrary), so her putting the ring on is essentially saying that she won't run away from relationships anymore, and is going to take it seriously too. As for the popularity thing, I saw it less as "Sam wants Quinn because he wants to be popular" and more "Sam wants to be popular because he doesn't think he deserves Quinn otherwise".
!! What the hell happened to '''Courage'''?
* Doesn't Kurt's transferring to Dalton COMPLETELY contradict the moral of "Never Been Kissed"? It doesn't even seem necessary. Karofsky almost got expelled for his bullying. People are now watching him at school, at home, and on the football team. He's on thin ice. '''Kurt fucking won.''' He didn't have to go anywhere. All this does is [[UnfortunateImplications send a bad message]] that the only solution is running away, especially if they're doing this bullying storyline for the kids watching. Not every gay teen can go off to an expensive private school. Burt and Carol don't even have the tuition money for Dalton themselves. They had to spend their honeymoon money which they'd been saving for awhile. What are they gonna do next year and the year after? Especially if they're buying a new house too, and tuition for a private school can easily equal a new house in a couple years. I acknowledge that Kurt might have the understandable fear of being not only physically but sexually assaulted, but I think even Karofsky knows not to take it that far. And if Kurt's that worried about his safety, show him taking Karate lessons or something. Let him take his protection into his own hands rather than hiding behind the straight boys.
** I think it was to show [[SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped how bad bullying can be]], also, is not like the bullying storyline is over. Edit: You can also interpret as a descontruction.
** First: Kurt's a junior. He'll only need two years (counting the current one) at Dalton. More importantly, the school board is clearly not going to do anything about the bullying. It doesn't matter that he's being watched. Unless he does something worse than he has already done, he's not going anywhere. And if he ''does'' do something that gets him in serious trouble and he STILL doesn't get expelled, then he'll just be back with ''more'' hatred for Kurt. At this point, he basically needs to cross the MoralEventHorizon for the higher-ups to actually DO something.
** I have indeed noticed this "contradiction." But who can deny that the bullying has escalated far even to the extent of a sexual predator. And Kurt feels that he can't be obligated to have his friends protect him all the time ("It's really none of your business"). Agreeing with the troper above me, it can be interpreted as Descontruction and ultimately points to the reality of the [[SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped careless school board that failed to take bullying seriously (The Phoebe Prince case) and underestimating a bully's motivation will led to death]].
** TruthInTelevision: [[Tropers/SilverShades I]] have been bullied for YEARS (a bad combination of Asperger's and being MistakenForGay) and with the school board not doing shit. After having my life threatened five days into the school year it took my mom getting a lawyer to actually have anything be done about that ONE person. And there's still the slightly annoying people trowing things at me and claiming "He shouldn't get special treatment because [[BerserkButton he's retarded."]] The chick was very fucking lucky I don't hti women. Kurt was lucky the principal felt like taking any action when my school has five and nothing was done.
** Also, remember the bit at the start of the episode? Karofsky scared the shit out of Kurt just by standing way too close to him and taking the statue. He didn't need to so much as lay a finger on Kurt or say a single threatening word to terrify him. Sure, after the expulsion and his return everyone would have been watching him, but since the grounds for taking action are either physical harm or threatening another student's life, there would have been nothing anyone could have done, because Karofsky would have understood that nobody could do anything if he did nothing to Kurt- and he wouldn't have hurt him, just continued to scare the shit out of him.
** If it's bad enough that ''Sue'' is giving up a good deal of political power for freedom to help one student in one respect (as far as she let on top Kurt, anyway), and his friends are getting into dangerous (if one-sided) fights to act as pre-emptive bodyguards, it's better to go somewhere else. A good deal of that was for him to feel more safe, although that would be disheartening for any closeted Lima kids who saw him as a role model and may have soon come out, but I'm sure at least part of it was that he didn't want the other people getting involved and potentially getting hurt even worse, and a paraphrase of "You're not omnipotent, even collectively" was a (certainly true) way to convince them it wasn't just for them.
!!Tuition
* How is a single-time payment equivalent to the cost of a honeymoon going to pay more than year and a half of tuition and school costs for as expensive a place as Dalton Academy? If Burt couldn't afford that as a regular expense, and Finn's mom's salary is barely enough to pay for two people's food and a one-bedroom trailer, how is it that they could have possibly planned a honeymoon that would have cost so much had they gone? Was it a lie to make Kurt feel better about the expense, as long as he didn't think too much about the math, or a, I ''vastly'' underestimating the cost of a short (though unusually expensive) two-person vacation or overestimating how expensive high-class private schools are?
** I thought it was weird that the expenses were even an issue at all. It's always been implied that Burt makes very good money, with owning his own lucrative business and everything. It's always been shown that Kurt and Burt live very well up to this point (nice clothes, expensive cars, telling Finn that they'd knock out a wall and add an addition to the house as though it was no biggie) so this "saving all our money for the Honeymoon" came pretty much out of nowhere. Sure, it will cost more than usual to maintain a household with four people as opposed to two, but not to the point of having to save up for a short trip for two to Hawaii.
** Tuition for a private high school can easily run about $25,000. Even for Burt that would be a significant chunk of change.

!! Sam the "leader."
* Why does he get all the credit for the confrontation with Karofsky and is called things like "The Epitome of a leader?" Artie and Mike intitiated the entire thing and all Sam did was get his ass kicked. Seriously, he didn't even put up a decent fight!
** Because Sam took it much further than Mike and Artie did.
** Yes, but if he were a real leader he would have initiated it rather than waiting for someone else to man up.
*** Quinn probably didn't tell him it was happening. It was Rachel's idea, and she was pretty emphatic that she was not dating Sam so she probably ignored the idea altogether.
**** That still doesn't answer the question of why everyone considered him the big damn hero. He wasn't leading, he was following someone else's lead.
*** True, but he's the only one who threw a punch. And these are high schoolers we're talking about. They're easily impressed by that.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Special Education]]
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Sue the Grinch]]
[[/folder]]



----
<<|JustBugsMe|>>

We're looking at the things that bugs us about Glee on a season by season basis.

* [[JustBugsMe/GleeSeason1 Just Bugs Me/Glee Season 1]]
* [[JustBugsMe/GleeSeason2 Just Bugs Me/Glee Season 2]]

[[foldercontrol]]
[[folder: Why Glee?]]
!!Why is this show still on TV...
* ...When shows like {{Dollhouse}} are getting canceled? Because ''that'' JustBugsMe.
** How can you use the word "still" when it's only the first season?
*** Yeah, because shows [[SarcasmMode never]] [[{{Firefly}} get]] [[FreaksAndGeeks canceled]] [[{{Undeclared}} in]] [[CloneHigh their]] [[{{Kings}} first]] [[{{Wonderfalls}} season]].
*** Also notice what four of those six shows [[{{Fox}} have in common with Glee]]...
*** That may be true, but what I meant was that it's not as if Glee has been on for very long. "Still" is a bit of an exaggeration.
** And because although Dollhouse is a very good show it just isn't pulling in the ratings and is very expensive to produce. You should be glad Fox gave Dollhouse a second season, given their track record. Glee by comparison is a ratings powerhouse despite going up against long running and extremely popular shows like Mythbusters and is much cheaper to make.
** {{Glee}} Also makes '''much''' more money because the downloaded songs. I think episode 13 even lampshades this when is said that "Don't Stop Believing It" is the most downloaded song in Itunes.
** Also, another reason: It is frigging Awesome.
** [[YourMileageMayVary I beg to differ.]]
** Glee is incredibly popular, especially within the main stream. It's already exceeded expectations, while Dollhouse is still expected to live up to the success of Buffy. Add that to the money it's pulling in with the iTunes downloads and it's not unimpressive popularity, it's not going anywhere.
** It's more than all that- it's that a big part of the ratings are from a guaranteed demographic. [[{{Elecveg}} This troper]] is very involved in a lot of music and theater stuff at her school, and there's almost literally nobody who doesn't watch {{Glee}} in any given group. It's the only musical on television right now- there were other SciFi, Comedy, etc. shows for the mentioned TooGoodToLast shows, meaning they got less word of mouth. Glee is THE musical TV show. Even those who don't LOVE it tend to watch just to see what happens, if it gets better, and mostly to discuss it with those who do enjoy it.
** I go to a REALLY nerdy college. Everyone I know watches Glee, but Dollhouse draws blank stares. Now try that with a normal high school?
** Glee also had at least 10 times the promotion Dollhouse did. This troper watched Fox pretty much every week day and Glee had a promo at least two or three times during the 8-10 time slot each day. Dollhouse? Got one promo right before the show (as in "Stay tuned for a new Dollhouse... starting RIGHT NOW!").
*** Were you perhaps watching after the decision to cancel Dollhouse (one of my favorite shows because Joss Whedon and Eliza Dushku are MadeOfAwesome)had already been made? Fox has a tendency to only promo right before the start of the show if they are "burning off" the remaining episodes.
* I think one difference between Glee and Dollhouse was the episode recap. I watched Dollhouse when it first came on, I enjoyed it. However, at one point I had to miss an episode. I went back to watching the show, but I found after missing one episode I had no idea what was going on. The recap given wasn't very clear as to exactly what happened so I couldn't follow along with the rest of the episode. A lot of TV dramas have that problem and it's something that can really hurt ratings. Glee, on the other hand, has recaps where they actually explain what happened last episode instead of playing some random clips from it. Even if you miss an episode of Glee, you can catch up again right away and you can still follow along with the show.
* In general, Glee has a wider range of appeal than shows like Dollhouse (which you have to admit is more niche than Glee). More than that, Glee has managed that little touch of something - there's something in the show for everyone regardless of tastes (for the most part).
** Agreed, another reason for Glee's success is their demographic. There are almost no currently airing comedies aimed at a teenage audience. The only station that's been making shows for teenagers is MTV, and quite frankly, it doesn't work out for everyone considering all they have is reality shows.
* Also, Dollhouse maybe isnt that great, much like most of Whedons stuff, which is why it doesnt get ratings.
** [[BuffyTheVampireSlayer You]] [[{{Angel}} can't]] [[{{Firefly}} be]] [[DoctorHorriblesSingAlongBlog serious]].
** [[FamilyGuy You]] [[SpongeBobSquarePants know]] [[{{Glee}} what]] [[{{HowIMetYourMother}} else]] [[AmericanIdol 'isnt]] [[DeathNote that]] [[AbsolutelyFabulous great'?]] [[YourMileageMayVary Your]] [[TakeThat grammar.]] You also seem to be forgetting that [[JossWhedon Joss Whedon]] *directed* an episode of [[{{Glee}} Glee]]. Now, granted, I like [[{{Glee}} Glee]] and [[HowIMetYourMother How I Met Your Mother]], but I'm not going to pretend like either is the best TV show ever. Just because you don't like [[JossWhedon Joss Whedon]] doesn't mean his stuff is bad (and anyways, [[DoctorHorriblesSingAlongBlog Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog]] is immensely popular as was [[BuffyTheVampireSlayer Buffy the Vampire Slayer]]). There are people who absolutely love [[EdWood Ed Wood]], so [[YourMileageMayVary Your Mileage May Vary]].
** Believe it or not, there are people who do not like Joss Whedon. He's good, but I personally fail to see how he is the paragon of good television. Besides, insulting someone does not necessarily [[FanDumb help your argument any]].
** Whedon is a good writer/director but he gets way to attached to his actors. Dushku should never have been the lead in Dollhouse, she just doesn't have the range to do all those roles. Not to mention that having "emotionless automaton" as a reasonable description of the main character was suicide from the word go.
** Whedon is an excellent writer, director, and producer, but he's not in any way perfect and neither are any of his shows. Besides, as always YourMileageMayVary comes into play. People are allowed to like what they want, regardless of how you or anyone else feels about it.
* As a non fan trying to see whats so popular, and only having seen about 4 and a half episodes(The pilot, the first 3 episodes of season 2 and half of theatricality) i really gotta say how in the hell is this show still on. As a gay guy who was in choir for 9 years and the last 4 of those, so i know about choir competitions and all that, this show just does not appeal to me in any way. I mean part of me still wants to TRY to give this show a chance and hope things get better but its like someone hits a reset button after every episode and all positive character building (read when characters stop being bitches to each other) is set to zero again. most of what people have already said before bug me too mainly that there doesnt seem to be any likeable characters and theyre all on bitch mode 24/7 (only one that isnt would be the crazy OCD counselor). So this is just me ranting
** Well, 1) watching the stuff in the air order is probably more helpful for seeing the appeal (and the character building) and 2) season 2 hasn't been that great so far as far as I'm concerned (particular for the characterisation leaps backwards). But more generally, sometimes people just don't like particular stuff, if it's not your cup of tea then let it go. It's not as if any TV is every truly popular in a "majority of people" kind of way. What's the last show that picked up 50% of the available TV audience?
* Because people like something you don't. Oh god, how terrible.
** That is not what OP said and you know it.
*** Do I? Because it mostly sounds like someone being upset a show they like got cancelled while a show they don't like wasn't. As in, they think it's weird their taste isn't shared by everyone. Shock horror. 'Why is this show still on, ugh!' is supposed to be taken another way?
** The show is popular for reasons. One is the singing, people, especially teens, love music. This Troper knows one guy who hates the show but is in love with the songs. A bigger reason, though, is the demographic. This is a comedy aimed at teenagers. Tell me, how many teen comedies are airing right now, as in making new episodes? Pretty much none. The only station that's really been making some effort to cater to teens is MTV, and that doesn't work for everyone considering it's almost entirely reality shows about rich white people. Then, the characters are pretty fun. Particularly Sue, she was an extremely well-received character both by viewers and critics.
* People are saying that Glee doesn't deserve to be on TV because that's not how the way people act. And they're not taking the deconstruction of the stereotypes far enough. ''That'' just bugs me. Even with all of its flaws, I'd much rather that a show like Glee is being shown, than if it's not. It at least makes the attempt to deconstruct stereotypes, it and because of its demographic, is getting all of that out to a large number of people. People can build on its wake in social terms and acceptance afterward if they feel ''that'' strongly about Glee's flaws, but at least it's broken ground ''now''.
** What stereotypes has Glee deconstructed?
* No accounting for taste. I personally didn't like Dollhouse, although I like Joss Whedon's other work, and I love Glee.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Sectionals]]
* I don't understand why they needed a new number for sectionals. They've done HOW MANY big numbers? Why couldn't they do Keep Holding On or True Colors or Lean on Me or even Push It or Last Name? Doing Keep Holding On or True Colors or adapting one of the others would have been much easier than thinking of a whole NEW number...
** The real answer, of course, is that it was much more dramatic. If I had to come up with some silly FanWank explanation, I would point out that just about every episode we've seen so far included Will saying some version of, "Guys, we've done great so far, but sectionals is coming up in [insert painfully slow moving figure here.] We need to step it up!" So the kids are probably conditioned to think everything they've done so far is inadequate to the majesty and glory of Sectionals (TM).
** * shrug* They do repeat Somebody to Love because it was "a real crowd pleaser." Maybe they didn't think the other songs they did were audience orientated. Most of the songs they had done were for themselves (usually with big deep end of episode messages about them as people) and the ones they performed for crowds weren't exactly the best for the situation (Push it was aimed at horny school kids, Last name was a 1 person song which they had already done one of in a Show CHOIR competition. Finn and Puck had done some of the Acafellas songs but the rest of the group hadn't and they're more boyband renditions anyway).
** Which is more interesting from a viewer's standpoint? Watching them sing something new, or watching something you saw a month ago? They draw viewers in with new musical numbers, not having them practice singing the same songs over and over again. I wonder how the writers are going to get around this for later episodes.
** Also, some of the big numbers seem to have taken place entirely inside a character's head, or used to represent the general feeling of the glee club without using the usual dialogue and character actions.
* Also, does it annoy anyone else that we only saw them perform two numbers (Don't Rain on My Parade and You Can't Always Get What You Want)? Aren't they supposed to do THREE?
** Quinn mentioned that they were going to finish with Somebody to Love. Considering that we'd already seen them perform it earlier in the series, it kept the pattern of not hearing the same song twice.
* This one bugs me like crazy: they specificially had to replace "And I Am Telling You..." in the "ballad" category. On what planet is "Don't Rain On My Parade" a ballad?
* Shouldn`t the glee club still be worried about the absence of Puck? Adding Sam only brings the number up to eleven.
** [[spoiler:Puck's absence is only temporary.]]
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Female solo trouble]]
* Why does Will make attempts to spread out the female solos and everyone complains about Rachel hogging them all, but no one bats an eyelash as every single male solo goes to the [[InformedAttribute oh-so-talented]] Finn?
** I knowwwww, right? I'm still ticked about Rachel dismissing Artie's talent, when not only is he a much better singer than Finn, but looks a hell of a lot more dignified wheelchair dancing than Finn does spazzing out two beats behind everyone else. And now that they've got Puck and the other jocks, there's really no excuse. And I LOVE Finn, I just don't like putting the other characters down to make him look better.
*** Lately though Artie, Mercedes, and Tina have all gotten greater focus in the club's chorale numbers with Finn and Rachel largely being reduced to singing songs on their own during rehearsals or outside of club entirely. Maybe Will actually learned something in "Throwdown."
* In "The Rhodes Not Taken", Finn objects to Mr. Schuester giving April the lead for "Don't Stop Believing", claiming it was Rachel's. When in actuality, it's been Quinn's since the second episode.
** Anyone else notice in that episode that during "Last Name", NOBODY BUT APRIL IS SINGING AT ALL?!
*** You forget that Will is completely enamored with April.
*** As is pretty much everyone who watches Glee, probably.
**** No, not really.
** Um, wasn't that the point?
** Yes, they are singing. If you listen to the recording of "Last Name" you can hear everyone singing backing vocals on the chorus. The point of the song IS that April is dominating it, and that no one is really doing much except her, but they ARE singing.
*** But isn't that just the case with almost EVERY song involving Rachel as a soloist anyway?
* Why does Will keep giving solos to only a few people? In fact, why does he choose songs that have one huge solo that's almost the whole song? It seems that every other episode so far has it where there's solo trouble.
** Again since "Throwdown" this seems to have changed, although the songs are still essentially long solos or duets with backing vocals he seems to spread those solos out a little more than he used to.
* So, wait--Glee is the bottom of the food chain, yet the jazz band and pianist have nothing better to do than to play at all of their rehearsals?
** Who the hell is the pianist anyway? Is he even a teacher or a staff member? Is he just a friend Will brought in on a favor?
*** This was lampshaded by Rachel in 'Theatricality' apparently, his name is Brad, and 'he sort of just hangs around'.
** Admittedly it was never stated that they were the ''only'' group at the bottom of the food chain.
** The addition of the school's most popular athletic crowd joining probably shot the group pretty far up the social ladder.
*** Not so much - in "Mash-Up," even the popular kids, like Quinn, Finn and Puck, were getting slushies to the face just for being in Glee Club. It's implied that Finn and Quinn lost some popularity when the rest of the school found out Quinn was pregnant, but that doesn't explain Puck getting slushied.
*** Puck got slushied because he had just quit the football team in favour of Glee and was walking down the hall with Rachel Berry wrapped around his arm. That's not dropping down the social ladder, that's gracefully pirouetting off the ladder.
**** Puck only ''symbolically'' quit the football team; after Finn talked to the coach, he didn't actually kick anyone off the team. So, really, it was just because of his association with Rachel that he got slushied. Thanks, Rachel.
** Also Artie is in the Jazz Band, so of course they would help him out. Band Brotherhood runs deep.
*** He does have pull there.
* How the hell did Rachel manage to convince everyone SHE was the best singer in glee club? Every other member outshines her in one way or another, it's true that she's a very talented singer with a pretty voice but she can't hold a candle to the set of pipes on Mercedes. Kurt is a better dancer, Artie is a better musician in general, and even Tina can hold her own against her (seriously, listen to the girl in "Proud Mary.").
** First of all, dancing and "musicianship" don't determine how good of a singer you are. Second, I like Mercedes too but Rachel is ''clearly'' the better singer. Mercedes may have that typical oversinging belting black diva voice but that's it really. Rachel on the other hand is much more polished and varied in technique, has a better vocal tone, and can both belt and sing gently ''unlike'' Mercedes. Rachel is the best singer in the Glee Club and this is acknowledged both in and out of the show (by anyone who has ''working'' ears).
*** Exactly - Rachel has a lot more range. She can switch from stage tunes to pop to rock without missing a beat. Mercedes mostly sings R&B songs, and the songs she sings that aren't R&B are re-arranged to fit within the style. Mercedes also does the really obnoxious, typical-pop-diva thing of packing as many melismas into a song as she can, even when there were none in the original version (see: "Gold Digger"). Anyone who knows anything about singing can tell you how trite and tired that technique is.
**** Pretentious, much? I agree that Rachel is overall a better singer, but Mercedes' "really obnoxious, typical-pop-diva thing" gives her voice character and lets her stand out in the crowd, and she's easily the second-best female singer in the group. Granted, she does lampshade how her only job most of the time is to belt out towards the end of the song, so there ''is'' some self-awareness.
*** Actually Kevin [=McHale=] is widely regarded as the best singer in the cast, and even in the context of the show Rachel is shown to be not as good as she thinks. Consider the audition in "Wheels" where it was heavily implied that Kurt would have won if he hadn't intentionally thrown his solo.
*** Troper Above better have proof that Kevin [=McHale=] is widely regarded as the best singer in the cast. Best male singer in the cast, probably but definitely not best overall. And Kurt would have won because he had more ''passion'' for the song. Compare the solo versions on iTunes, Lea Michele's is more typical Broadway in that she has the better technique but Chris Colfer's is considered as better because of the ''emotion'' he puts-just notice the comments. By the way, ThisTroper thinks Kurt should have won too, even with that intentional bum note.
*** Re Kurt having more passion for the song, I believe the whole reason for that is that Chris Colfer was denied a chance to sing "Defying Gravity" in school, because it was a "girl's song." Art imitating life or an intentional act by the ep's writers, it obviously meant as much to Chris as it did to Kurt.
**** The reason Kurt didn't get the part wasn't because his audition had one bad note, it was because the note he missed was incredibly high in his range. By bombing it, he is telling Will that he is incapable of singing that note.
*** As well, considering how many solos Rachel gets, she has had ''so'' much more chance to prove herself. She sings at least one song with a verse or more to herself, and often an entire song to herself, an episode; Defying Gravity is the first song Kurt got a single solo on other than his audition.
** But she can still hardly call herself "The Best" when it's clear that there are at least four other students that can stand up to her musically. Never mind the fact that a glee club is essentially a team and in order to win you need to gel as a whole and work together. Using a soloist or any other person to be the focus and "carry" an arrangement is seen as lack of confidence and inability to blend voices and harmonies due to a bad ear or lack of practice and will get you killed in competition. That's something she SHOULD know but still tries to throw her weight around to get what she wants. And please do not take this as a slight against Lea Michele, who is wonderfully talented young lady and a delightful person in general, but then the entire cast is talented. People seem to forget that Glee has an ensemble cast that was specifically formed to work and sound well together so it would hardly seem logical or fair to single out one performer as "The best." The point is there is no reason why the other members of the original six(in the pilot) should ever have put up with her "Do what I say because I'm the best" crap in the first place because doing so NEVER did them any good. Mercedes may have been a competing diva, but at least she had the guts to call Rachel out, even if no one supported her.
*** In sectionals, Mercedes was set to go as the soloist on the ballad, don't forget, but when the leaked set list came into play, the whole group... including Mercedes and Kurt... agreed Rachel was the go to girl to pull off something cold. The point is not that Rachel is the best ''singer'', it is that she is the best ''performer''. The musical numbers make this obvious.
*** On Mercedes: Am I the only one annoyed that she never seems to get anything but stereotypically "black" songs, or at least that she always sings that way. I'd love to hear her do a different style at least occasionally.
* [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4Xd435coD4 Wait until Charice becomes part of the cast.]] It's gonna get worse.
* Emma is supposed to be really sweet, but the way she treats Ken really bothers me. And Will's open flirtation with her makes him seem a lot less like the nice guy, too.
** The problem is that he borders too much "Stalker with a crush", what bothers me is how both of them are single and apparently "optionless" about love.
* Why hasn't the fake pregnancy plot been mentioned here yet? Pretty much my biggest problem with the show at the moment.
** You're not alone at all. Although there's several things I like (probably far too much) about this show, the fake pregnancy plot line bugs me to hell and back and I really can't wait for it to be over.
** Also Terri's missed something: She's going to need to be at most 12 months pregnant to get away with having a baby that isn't premature. Quite a BAD oversight!
*** It's physically impossible to be 12 months pregnant.
*** To be fair, its a little unclear how far apart Terri and Quinn's due dates are. There are four episodes in between them finding out. Given that Terri and Will were actively trying to conceive, she would have been aware of her cycle and noticed as soon as her period was late, and thus found out very early (at four or five weeks). Quinn on the other hand is a teenager who has only had sex once, and could have made it to six or eight weeks without realizing something was wrong. Terri can get away with being 'pregnant' for up to 42 weeks, and possibly more now that she has her gyno under the thumb. The real question is how the hell Terri intends to handle the handover, given that Will will expect to be present at the birth, and ''knows about Quinn's baby.''
** Quinn was stated to be around 5-6 weeks pregnant in episode 4. Terri had started wearing the 4-month belly same episode, so I'm assuming 16-17 weeks. Fairly big gap to work around if you ask me.
*** To be fair episode 11 finally told us Terri and Kendra's plan for the switch (even though it is an INCREDIBLY dumb plan if you ask me). My biggest thing is HOW Terri and Quinn lied to their men. Terri, rather then just fake a miscarriage or tell the truth decides to lie rather then say something like "It's to bad, why don't we keep trying though? Let's go have sex!". Or how Quinn makes up a ridiculous story about the hot tub rather then just having sex with Finn, waiting a week or two then telling him she's pregnant so there's no possibility of him figuring out the lie or slipping to someone that they haven't done it. Also this would solve her Puck problem since Puck wouldn't be able to figure it out immediately if he knew that Finn and Quinn had had sex too.
**** Terri faked it because she knew it was the only thing holding their marriage together, and the only reason Quinn had sex with Puck in the first place is because he got her drunk.
**** I think it's safe to conclude that the pregnancy plot has enough problems to qualify as an IdiotPlot. This is pretty unsurprising considering Terri and Kendra ''are'' idiots, but Quinn doesn't have that excuse.
** And now it HAS been addressed. It wasn't pretty.
* "Terri, you're having my baby. I don't have the right to expect anything more from you." That line. Oh, Will.
** What bugs me more than anything else is that after blackmailing the doctor, she uses him to keep the lie, rather than making forge a abortion or a abortion certificate of some sort.
*** Um...by abortion, do you mean ''miscarriage''? Because I imagine telling Will she aborted the baby he was so excited about would make him even angrier than telling him the truth.
**** Sorry, I did meant ''miscarriage'', I am Brazilian and we only have a single word for the two things (well ''miscarriage'' could be turned in ''lost the baby'')
*** Going with the above, I'm pretty sure Will would ''totally'' stick by Terri's side were she to say she miscarried. In fact, if she just said ''that'', she could then openly offer to adopt Quinn's baby, solving all the pregnancy drama.
*** Everybody seems to be forgetting Terri was batshit insane when it came to the baby and not exactly the brightest bulb anyway
*** And that Terri did want to tell Will the truth, but her sister convinced her that Will would leave her in a second if she wasn't pregnant anymore.
*** It really seems to me that no matter how supportive Will would be, he'd also ask Finn if they used protection/chastise Finn for not using protection. And then, Finn would mention the hot tub, and Will would awkwardly ask him what exactly he and Quinn did. And the whole Finn's the babydaddy would be over become it ever really began because Will, whether he wanted to have that conversation or not, wouldn't let Finn go on believing he'd gotten a girl pregnant when he hadn't.
* On the subject of pregnancy in the show, someone, anyone, involved with this show needs to invest in a copy of What to Expect When You Are Expecting, Discrepancies include:
** Quinn finding out that she's having a girl at her ten week ultrasound. The earliest possible time to find out the baby's sex is maybe fifteen weeks and even then it's in no way foolproof.
** Teri supposedly did this too but that didn't bother me because she was lying and clearly neither she and Will knew very much about the subject.
** Quinn goes into labor, manages gets to the hospital and gives birth in the space of a song. Seriously, Rachel tells Shelby that the baby is a healthy baby girl as Vocal Adrenaline is finishing their number.
*** There was also enough time for the entire cast to get back to the competition for the award ceremony, including Mercedes who was present at the birth.
** Quinn gives birth to an apparent four month old even though she was only around 36 weeks pregnant. At the rate this kid is growing Beth will be competing with Rachel for solos by next season.
*** This is a matter of logistics. If you want to show a baby on TV, it's -highly- unlikely that you'll be able to get a fresh out of the womb baby. This happens with any baby on TV.
** Yes, private adoptions are easier than other types, but I have a lot of trouble that all the paperwork- minus the name on the birth certificate- was drawn up and filed in less than twenty-four hours.
** Also within twenty-four hours Quinn is discharged from the hospital and is not only walking but dancing with out a hint of pain or discomfort.
*** What dancing was Quinn doing? The 2 numbers after the birth were "To Sir With Love" (the whole group was sitting) and "Over The Rainbow" (performed by Puck and Will in front of the whole ''sitting'' group). No dancing at the end of the ep. For that matter, we did not even see her walk.
*** As far as being discharged, nowadays, it's because they're outpatients unless there's a need for the mother or child to stay in the hospital.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Ok, let's be honest. Does this show have any likable characters? ]]
** Artie?
*** I second Artie, also, what do you have against Kurt?
**** While I'm a huge Kurt fan (and Artie fan, for that matter), he's no saint. Mainly, there was the makeover he gave Rachel which he said would make Finn like her more but actually pushed him further away. Also, what I don't understand is why he seems to hate Rachel for her self-centered-diva attitude, but supports the same tendencies in Mercedes...
***** Because Rachel is competition for Finn's attention, Mercedes isn't.
****** It's more than that. Rachel is essentially the female Kurt. Ok, not exactly, but they are the most similar characters on the show. She has the luxury of not only being someone Finn can be attracted to(and is, since he's dating her), but bering able to express herself without being beat up. It is so much more likely that Rachel will achieve her dreams than Kurt. Since their dreams are identical, you can see why he's so jealous of her. In Kurt's view, it's just so much easier for her. And it's gotta hurt to know that Finn likes her because this means that if Finn was gay, or Kurt was a girl, he would probably have a pretty good shot with him.
******* A lot of people now apparently think Artie is the biggest misogynist asshole of them all, after the events involving Tina and Brittany. This troper honestly doesn't see it as that bad, but some people get pretty venomous about it.
** This Troper actually likes most of the characters - they've all got their flaws and moments of stupidity, but they've all got their good times too. Except for Terri.
*** Why you be hatin' on Terri?
*** She's neurotic, insane, desperate, and a bad person for lying to her husband about her pregnancy. She even tries to confront Emma after Will leaves Terri, which makes her seem even crazier. Terri has serious problems and few, if any, redeeming qualities. Why shouldn't we be hatin' on Terri again?
**** And Will having an emotional affair with another woman is okay?
**** Did you miss the long diatribe about Terri just above your post? The fact that he only ''just'' started looking elsewhere almost qualifies him as a saint.
** Sort of the motif behind the Grey and Grey Morality of the show, is it not?
** Their flaws ''are'' what make them endearing.
** And that's arguably intentional.
** Compared to the ''lovely'' people in Ryan Murphy's [[NipTuck most famous other work]], even [[TheScrappy Terri]] qualifies for beatification.
** Brittany is fairly endearing; perhaps someone you might not want to spend a lot of time around but certainly the most innocent and sweet of the group.
*** "Innocent"? Hasn't it been established that she's slept with like 85% of the student body, male and female? It seems to me that she's the 3rd biggest nympho in [=McKinley=] High (Puck and Santana being numbers 1 and 2 respectively). That said, she is sweet, and endearing, if dim as a 2 watt bulb. She is hot, though.
**** What does virginity have to do with non-metaphorical innocence?
*** Besides, she's easily the biggest nympho. Brittany doesn't seem to care about gender (or species, IIRC she once mentioned making out with her cat?) while Puck is 100% straight (so far as we know, anyway) and Santana is straight for everyone but Brittany.
** How about Ken? This NiceGuy gets stepped on big time. True, he did one vindictive act (making his players choose), but other than that his only sins are being a simple guy who's a nil in the looks department.
*** YMMV here, too. In the first episode, he wipes spit all over an ''extreme'' germophobic's door handle because she politely turned him down when he asked her on a date and told him there was someone else. This was after he'd refused to take the hint when she'd always made up excuses not to go on a date with him before, mind. You'd think he would've stopped after that, but he asks her out again the next episode, and his "Why You Should Date Me," speech includes veiled insults at her OCD ("I'll put up with your crazy,") while also implying that other people wouldn't be willing to date her because of her OCD ("...You're not going to do much better.") Attacking someone's already low self-esteem so they will agree to a date is not a NiceGuy thing to do. He later tries to sabotage Glee Club because he's jealous of Will, suggests to Terri that they have an affair, and basically proposes to Emma not because he loves her, but as a method of manipulating her into staying with him, since he knows she actually loves Will and not him. Not trying to let Emma off the hook here - she never should have agreed to go out with Ken if she wasn't into him, and she should have ended things instead of staying with him, and she certainly shouldn't have agreed to marry him. But Ken also helped manipulate into all these things despite knowing about her lack of feelings for him, so as far as him getting stepped on is concerned, he just made his bed and then had to lie in it.
** Hello? Tina! Sure, she doesn't get much air time, but she's FANTASTIC.
*** YMMV. While not as divisive as some of the more major players, some fans find Tina extremely grating for one reason or another.
**** Especially after [[spoiler: dumping Artie for Mike, I know Artie's not perfect (taking part in Halo marathons rather than hanging out with his girlfriend, calling her "woman"), but her reasoning is incredibly shallow ("Why can we talk about things ''I'' like? Like his abs!")]]
[[/folder]]
[[folder:How does Kurt pay for all those designer with his dad being a MECHANIC?]]
** Maybe he copies the designs and makes them himself.
** Mechanics aren't exactly poor, and his father seems to own his own shop. Kurt seems to wear the same jacket all the time, so it may just be a combination of careful saving, shopping the sales, and wearing Target t-shirts and jeans with designer jackets and accessories.
*** Between the size of his dad's shop, (seriously, in episode 9 it's ''huge''), Kurt having a large and nice room, and his rather expensive-looking car it's pretty safe to assume Mr. Hummel isn't exactly hurting for money.
** [[EpilepticTrees Maybe Kurt's mom was loaded and Hummel Senior didn't want to just become one of the idle rich when she died and left him with everything because it wouldn't be what she wanted.]]
*** Given what we've seen of Kurt's dad makes some sense.
**** It doesn't have to be that even; just because he 'looks' like some regular mechanic doesn't mean he is. Take a look at some real life famous 'mechanics' like Jesse James and the Teutels.
**** Two things: 1) A skilled mechanic w/ a successful shop in or near a major city can make well over $100k per year. You can buy a lot of clothes w/ that. and 2) Men's clothes really aren't that expensive (as compared to women's) so a few thousand dollars could literally buy all the clothes most men would ever need (writes the man w/ 120+ shirts)
** I am more interested to know how the glee club could pay for those costumes.
*** Remember in episode two Principal Figgins says the Glee Club gets a part of the Cheerio's dry cleaning budget for costumes.
* In ep. 18, Pa Hummel mentions that they own a majority interest in a tire shop. A majority stake in a successful business is going to give you some cash to play with on top of any other things Hummel might be doing.[[/folder]]
[[folder:Brittany in Episode Four]]
* She was the one that come up with the story that Kurt was a football player. Was she trying to destroy the Glee club? Or did she actually want to help? She has being portrayed as too stupid for either story to fit the character. Plus, she looked happy with dancing...
** Brittany is that special mix of dumb and sweet. She's smart enough to come up with a mildly believable lie, but too stupid to be genuinely mean.
** Tina was the one who blurted out "football", Brittany just ran with it.
** Heather Morris has said in various interviews that it wasn't until the fifth or sixth episode that Brittany really started being "a dumb blonde." Originally HeMo was brought in solely because she was such an awesome dancer and then they decided to flesh her character out a little. So, in that scene, she's not dumb because... she's not dumb yet.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Mercedes' reaction to finding out that Puck is the father of Quinn's baby, just that.]]

** Maybe she thinks that Finn already knows and is staying with Quinn anyway? I hope. Otherwise...yeah. Even Quinn knows what she's doing is wrong, I have trouble believing someone on the outside would think it's okay.
** Mercedes sees Puck as a JerkAss-she has no reason to believe he's really a JerkWithAHeartOfGold. Thus, she only sees a selfish, good-for-nothing guy who got a girl to cheat on her boyfriend and is much less qualified to be a father than Finn. Also, remember that Puck tried to steal money from Artie's short bus fund to support Quinn, while Finn did everything he could to get a job, including faking disability. Mercedes might have been right:
-->'''Mercedes:''' You're the baby's ''daddy.'' It takes a hell of a lot more to be a ''father,'' and that role's already been cast.
*** It is reasonable to say that Finn looks like a better father-figure than Puck, but you are forgetting that taking care of a child would change Finn life forever, whatever dream or plan would need to put aside, while Puck would go scot free, ant that doesn't even touch the ramifications of Quinn cheating.
** One problem with that. If she did believe fully that Puck was in fact a JerkAss, then wouldn't it be more reasonable to not believe him at all? And with the whole 'father was cast' nonsense, she didn't even know the whole story, didn't even listen to Puck's side, and she just ripped him off. FamilyUnfriendlyAesop indeed.
*** Why else would Puck confess such a shameful thing?
* OMG, yes, the whole thing just pissed me off. Not only is she brazenly dismissing Puck, and blaming him, she's saying that it's right that Finn be made a father falsely, and says that for Quinn, Puck "owes her at least that much" not to get involved...so Finn gets sympathy, Puck is rebuked for "messing up Quinn's life", when there is little objectively separating the two circumstances? It takes two people to cheat. Besides, it's kind of a FamilyUnfriendlyAesop to tell him to not help with his unborn child, even worse to tell him to let his best friend be connived into doing his job for him. The whole thing was complete nonsense.
* But hadn't Quinn decided that she was giving the baby she was carrying up for adoption anyway? I guess that weighed in on Mercedes' (and the rest of the club, once they found out) decision to not let Finn know that Puck was the father of the baby. Quinn doesn't want to raise the baby she's carrying now with neither Finn nor Puck - she wants to be with Finn forever (at least as of the beginning of episode 13).
* This was beyond frustrating, but I didn't think it was too far out of character for Mercedes. Mercedes is generally a very compassionate person, so she no doubt thought no further beyond the idea that biological paternity wasn't important, and doesn't want to see Finn get hurt. She was caught in the spur of the moment, and would probably have revised her opinion later.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Stuttering]]
Stuttering: a real disability (when it's not fake). Shyness severe enough that the shybie alters her speech patters for several years: no disability there. (And I doubt it's because [[DidNotDoTheResearch shyness doesn't work that way]].)
** I don't understand what you're getting at. Are you just saying that Tina doesn't really have a disability? In that case, yes, that was the point of her scene with Artie at the end of "Wheels". Nobody who knows she's faking the stutter has claimed that it still counts as a disability.
*** The above-above troper is saying that Tina ''does'' have a problem: Shyness, in a level that she would drive people away for years, rather than deal with them.
**** Ah, now I get it. Well, yes, Tina clearly has some pretty serious issues. But extreme shyness is a psychological problem, not a physical disability. You could argue that the distinction isn't that important, but Artie obviously feels differently.
** Was I the only one annoyed at Artie for getting so mad at Tina? I mean, she admitted to being so [[ShrinkingViolet painfully shy]] that she faked a stutter so she wouldn't have to talk to people. To me, that is certainly a disability. I get that Tina was dishonest, but I still think Artie overreacted. Plus, he implies that he was only interested in her because they both had disabilities. He seemed pretty shallow to me when he dropped all his affection for her purely because she didn't have a stutter.
*** I have ''loathed'' Artie ever since this episode for that (although all the hints that he's a sexist pig since have helped sustain that loathing). Well, for that on top of the whole episode. He somehow twisted every conversation they had that episode around to her stutter even though it was obvious that she wasn't cool with that, and I was all set for the episode to end with him somehow learning a lesson about treating her that way when he'd hate it if somebody acted the same way about his disability, and then ''that's'' the ending we get instead?
**** Ditto, re: Artie bringing it up all the time. I can sympathize with his anger (a lot) but the way he treated Tina when he thought she had a condition was NOT cool.
** He was upset because faking a disability to receive special treatment is incredibly offensive to actual disabled people. He thought that she understood what it was like for him and she didn't. She may empathize, but not really understand.
*** Yeah, because she only pretended to stutter in order to ''reap'' the social benefits and be cool. She stuttered specifically ''not'' to get special treatment.
**** That's ''exactly'' what's offensive about it, though. Granted, Tina had to overcome her shyness, but unlike Artie she had the ability to stop the discrimination that comes with having a disability. Artie (and people like ThisTroper) don't have that privilege. Now, I think Artie can be a huge jerk to Tina and don't even get me started on season two, but he had every right to be upset with her in "Wheels".
** For the record, there's something called Social Anxiety Disorder though it's hardly anything like what Tina might have. More than just shyness, this would certainly be a mental disability though this one thinks that it's little much for Glee.[[/folder]]

[[folder:Someone complaining about song in a musical show]]
* When a song starts up, the changed acoustics make it obvious that it was performed, recorded and mixed in a studio.
** Three words: RuleOfCool
** Three more words: It's a Musical.
** Three more words: Just Bugs Me. (Really, it's more about the bad mixing, and how all ambient sound fades out. That and the painfully obvious autotuning.)
** It really is a product of almost every musical. Most of the songs that happen indoors (and almost ALL the songs in Glee take place exclusively indoors) have no ambient sound whatsoever. Simply the music maybe the sound of tap dancing if it's employed. The characters rarely interact with their environment while singing and if they do it's something that wouldn't have much of a sound anyway (such as Will climbing on the piano bench) If there was a lot of ambient sound lurking in the background people would just complain about ''that''.
** Every now and then they just skip it, like the club's impromptu rendition of "Ride With Me" in "Throwdown." It was still pretty awesome.
*** Well, to me that song was more Heartwarming, I think is the first time we see the glee kids actually having ''fun'' together, or at least, is the first time it is made clear. But I wouldn't listen it without the video. =P
* Why are the mashups so damn short? They're usually some of the most awesome songs in the show and an extended cut on the album or for download would be very welcome.
** Licensing issues?
* In Episode 10 the writers didn't address what happened with Tina and Artie. They are EVIL!
** That's because Episode 9 was ADayInTheLimeLight and afterwards they had to get back to the main plot of the season.
*** And now Artie and Tina are officially together, happy now?
*** And as of the beginning of season 2, Tina broke up with Artie and got together with [[strike: Other Asian]] Mike instead.
* What happened to the other member of Glee Club shown in the pilot singing with Sandy? Sandy got fired but there was no mention of what happened to him. Will said he was willing "to captain the Titanic Two" but it sort of turned into the Titanic One plus 11. If Mr. Schuester was looking so hard for 12 members at the start of the series you would think he'd include one of the ''original members''.
** That wasn't a member of the Glee Club, I think it was said that he a lead in a school play, and Rachel actually got Sandy fired because she didn't got the main part. The general impression that I had, it was there ''wasn't'' a Glee Club before, at least for sometime.
** Will said he wanted to coach glee. Figgins asked sarcastically, "Do you want to captain the Titanic, ''too''?" Also, the kid was probably too ashamed of being involved with Sandy (even though he didn't reciprocate) to audition for glee.
** Actually, Figgins did say Two the number, but he wasn't talking about the members. By now the Glee Club is expected to sink hard every year.
** Actually, Figgins said 'too' as in 'also'. He was making reference to the fact that it was an impossible task as they will fail, and Will was being a glutton for punishment. If he's willing to put his neck on the line for the kids, why doesn't he also captain the Titanc. Using the numeral '2' there doesn't make a jot of sense.
** Erm, remember: In order for Will to have a club to steal from Sandy, Sandy must have that club in the first place. And the context makes it clear that some sort of show choir existed under Sandy Ryerson... it is, after all, him being fired that leaves Will available to create New Directions from whatever ashes were left. Will never started Glee before, because someone else was already doing it. How well is up to you, but its reasonable to assume that Rachel at least was in it... other than that, you can ask yourself WhatHappenedToTheMouse, but maybe its better not to wonder what happens to him... can you really see any path that doesn't involve therapy?
*** In the directors cut of the pilot it showed that the Glee Club under Sandy was "Stool Choir" where they all just sat around on stools. Tina, Mercedes, Kurt and Rachel were in it, but Artie wasn't, or at least not shown. I'm not sure about the "Where is Love" kid.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Rachel: YourMileageMayVary. Oh so much.]]
* Rachel's gotten the most CharacterDevelopment out of everyone and is not the same bitchy, self-centered diva of the pilot. Yet she is still getting the most flak out of everyone, both in the show and out. I blame FanDumb for what's nonfictional but did Kurt really need to humiliate her in "Wheels" like that with his "Now we all know I'm more popular" line (and why didn't Mr. Schu stop him?)? Or earlier on when ''all the kids'' were being inconsiderate towards Artie yet only ''Rachel'' gets Artie's ire. And this is turned into a CrowningMomentOfAwesome by members of this very site. Am I the only one who feels for her when she mentions later on that she literally has no friends?
** Bluelantern2814: Well, in Artie defense, the entire club acted like jerks, Rachel was the unlucky one (or the stupid one) to speak at the moment. Also, earlier she said that "her family is fully committed to take out" while it is showed in episode 3 and 10 that she does know to cook. Another thing is... I guess it is hard to be sorry about it since her ''problem'' is being too much of a Diva, while the other members have more valid issues (specially Artie).
** Rachel's problem at the moment is that "no one likes her" (except Finn but he's a LoveInterest; she's past the diva stage. I feel for the other club members (Quinn's pregnancy, etc.) but I don't think Rachel's loneliness is any less valid of an issue. As the OddManOut she is universally hated and isolated from the group. How is that no less valid of an issue, especially since this can lead to major depression IRL (not that I think it's gonna happen on the show)? And Rachel being the Unlucky One singled out just shows how much she's hated by ''everyone'' in the club and it's deemed a fucking CrowningMomentOfAwesome? Really?
** Rachel IS still a spoiled diva, if a mildly sympathetic one. Consider her actions in "Wheels," first there is her resentment at being forced to sit in a wheelchair for three hours a way (granted most of the cast has this reaction, but hers is the most extreme), and again when Mr. Shue is confronted with the bias of his casting and thusly hold a fair and open audition for the solo in "Defying Gravity" She accuses him of ruining her life. You feel bad for her because she has no friends, but she has no friends because her massive ego pushes people away. She's learning to control it, but that doesn't make her any less grating or insensitive.
** My problem is that so many of her fans in real life are Special Snowflake fangirls turning her into a PossessionSue. Nobody on the show can even make a snarky comment to her without the internet filling up with "Waaa she's so abused! Just. Like. Me!!!" or "They can't give Kurt the Defying Gravity song! It doesn't matter that it fits his character better, Lea looks like Idina Menzel!!!" Also, fangirls making arguments that Rachel being disliked for being irritating and socially clueless is the same as Elphaba being discriminated against for her skin color. Or saying that Kurt asking to compete for the solo is just as rude, if not worse, than Rachel demanding the Tonight solo from Tina and storming out when she doesn't get her way. It's really no wonder that everyone hates them-I mean Rachel.
** A lot of socially-awkward overachievers will find Rachel identifiable; I'll admit that in high school, I was basically a more introverted and lazier Rachel, though my outlet was instrumental music rather than singing. I defend her a lot, though it's less because I think Rachel is perfect (I don't, and she isn't even my favorite character) but more because the obnoxiousness and seeming-arrogance that turn her into TheScrappy for so many people are, for ThisTroper, what make her such a compelling and a realistic character. Most of the people I knew in high school who were the star of this or that club/activity were Rachel's, not Tina's. As for the obnoxious fangirls thing, you could say the same about Kurt fans (he's gay and picked-on for it, so it's ''perfectly!! okay!!'' the way he manipulates Rachel and Finn to achieve his romantic ends).
** Well said, Rachel needs character development that survives StatusQuoIsGod, every episode she hits her Diva reset button and ends up with a plot that doesn't make her much better. Honestly, I do want her to have friends, but I also want her to earn them. =|
*** Just to add to my point: The writers also need to put her in situations that don't revolve around her search for fame or Finn, dunno, something like, hanging out with the other Glee Kids, just to show her as a more 3-Dimensional being.
*** But Rachel ''doesn't'' have anyone else to hang out and herein lies the whole problem. And I argue that while she's still overdramatic with "ruining my life" comment, her character development ''does'' survive StatusQuoIsGod. She's still willing to go through with the wheelchair routine despite Artie insulting her (in earlier episodes she probably would have just quit the Glee Club because "being in a wheelchair wouldn't benefit her future career"), she brings back [[SympathyForTheDevil Quinn]], and she helps Finn get a job even though it would benefit her more to ''stop'' Finn from finding a job (and subsequently Quinn would follow through on her threat and break up with him). I don't think Pilot Rachel would handle the situations the same way. Rachel started off as a pretty deplorable character who would probably sell ''Finn'' into slavery if it was to further her career but she's come a long way from that person, in my opinion. And ItJustBugsMe that this doesn't seem to be acknolwedged at all. Whew.
*** Okay, she does get CharacterDevelopment, but still, does the Glee Kids know about it? She has no interests outside Glee Club (including Finn), I am surprised that she has so many outfits because I can't honestly picture she "wasting time" shopping. She might had grow as a person, but she still has to reach out to show this to her "friends".
*** My memory might be faulty but after the Glee Kids visited Vocal Adrenaline, wasn't ''Rachel'' the one to warn Mercedes about Kurt (gayintervention?) before Mercedes blew her off. Also it's hard to approach people who you know hate you and say "Hey guys, I know I was a bitch before but I changed so let's hang out together :)" which is why she purposely stands to the side and buries herself in Glee Club work because she thinks that's the only way she can be worth something to the rest of the club-as a fellow singer but not a friend. And as with the no interests thing, I think the bowling scene with Finn shows that yes Rachel does need to get a life outside of singing/dancing but she can loosen up and just hang out if someone reached out to her. I'm not saying Rachel is now a perfect angel, her CharacterDevelopment is far from complete, but cut the girl some slack!
**** I cut her some slack and still give the CMoA to Artie.
**** Agreed. The CMoA was more about Artie standing up for himself than knocking Rachel down a peg.
***** Just adding something to this; this may be totally off, but the reason I don't hate Rachel (actually I quite like her as a character) is because obviously being bought up to be (also with aspirations to be) "a star" has warped her into being incredibly competitive, diva-like and determined when it comes to things like musical theater. The fact that she had been constantly bullied throughout high school (dare I say before high school- she never mentions having any friends before that), had Slushies dumped on her by Puck, had Quinn sending her abusive messages (this was shown in the pilot). Now, in my own experience of bullying (and knowing people that have been bullied in this way for years, especially people involved in singing/drama) I've found that people will end up becoming attached to their hobby that they are bullied for, in lieu of trying to form friendships as its been made clear that people can't understand their hobbies, and if you were say, bought up doing dance classes and things, you'd want to hold onto something that is a major part of your life. The treatment by the rest of the Glee club bugs me, yes- she can be incredibly selfish and will do anything to get the solos she feels she deserves, I'm not saying these are GOOD things, but the fact that after slowly beginning to learn from her mistakes, she still gets flak from the rest of the club is cruel. Kurt's "makeover" and her subsequent humiliation in front of Finn while being made to believe (by Kurt) that dressing like that and seducing him would get him to like her (which speaks for a whole load of her other issues- ones addressed bizarrely enough by Suzie Pepper- the scene in the bathroom for example which actually EXPLAINED why Rachel was like that around boys, something which people who adamantly hate her don't take into consideration- come on, the girl obviously has a lot of issues based around her image and the way she acts with people) was quite horrible to watch, and something that made me rethink my stance on Kurt's character. Yes, the two of them are going through the same issues, instead of bonding through it he made her humiliate herself, then told her the object of her affection would never like her anyway- something which she ended up accepting, whereas when she told Mercedes about the fact that her and Kurt wouldn't go anywhere she was treated like a bitch. I can understand her character getting flak from the fandom because... no character ever escapes that, people have alternate character interpretations and this is mine, but I don't understand why the writers have made her be the character that, except for Finn, appears to be hated by everyone in the glee universe?
****** Her diva-like behavior though is implied to be something that was in place long before she ever got to high school. She was more than likely singled out '''because''' she acted like a bit of a spoiled brat. When she dated Puck she did the talking constantly, and about things he wasn't particularly interested in. There were a few brief moments between them, but when the broke up and she asked to be friends Puck said it all "We weren't friends to begin with." This isn't because either of them were bad people, they were simply '''very''' different and had nothing in common (other than their faith) and very few shared interests (at least he listened to her go on about music and shows, can you really see Rachel giving a damn about football if Finn wasn't doing the talking?). She is the only daughter of two gay men (something she points out to people every chance she gets, usually to get something she wants) who have likely been encouraging her talent for music and rarely reigning in her ambitions or her more extreme behavior. Her actions seem to suggest that she is '''very''' used to getting her own way despite her lack of popularity. Everyone in the glee club was picked on for a reason, Artie was in a wheelchair, Kurt was gay, Mercedes was fat, Tina stuttered, Rachel was picked on because she was incredibly annoying to everyone around her. Rachel has shown some mild [[TheLibby Libby-like]] tendencies within Glee club and would most likely be one if she were more popular.
******* Well said, I agree with the majority of your points (however I still feel she is getting better and while at the Pilot and half-way through the series so far she probably would've used her popularity to become The Libby I would say that at this point in the series she wouldn't, although this is Glee and they do like to set StatusQuoIsGod in motion a lot). Although the few brief moments between her and Puck were important for both their character developments (although I have to admit we've gone back to square one with both of them since)- when he was slushied for the first time she was sympathetic and nice to him, even though he was the one who'd done it to her so many times before. So I think she has the capability of being nice, but her diva-like tendencies and selfishness prevents her from being so.
* Just posting here, that after Hairography, I will woobiefy Rachel, I still think she is annoying, but she doesn't deserve that much crap :(
* Is anyone else forgetting that at the time, Rachel was openly trying to steal Finn from Quinn and the whole reason for the makeover WAS to take Finn from Quinn. . .
** Well, why should Rachel care about wrecking Quinn's relationship? It's strongly implied that Quinn regularly bullied Rachel pre-series, and Quinn has admitted to drawing pornographic pictures of her in the bathroom. She also confesses that if Rachel were pregnant, she (Quinn) would "torture" her for it. Rachel may be annoying, but she hardly deserves that kind of treatment. Besides, even given that neither Rachel nor Finn knew about Quinn's baby's true paternity, Rachel would see freeing Finn from the bitchy Quinn as a good deed, if only to satisfy her own ego.
* "Sectionals" has shown that some of her CharacterDevelopment has paid off, as she is reluctant to take the solo away from Mercedes in the club's revised set list and agrees with Finn that Mike Brittany and Matt are probably their best dancers and should be the ones to choreograph the new routine. She also let Artie present Mr. Schue with the sectionals trophy and [[IncrediblyLamePun gleefully]] pushed him around with it. I'm sure time will tell that she can still be incredibly annoying, but at least she's a much nicer person than she was in the beginning. It looks like someone finally threw away the "Diva reset button."
* Could it have something to do with getting a teacher fired by falsely accusing him of sexual abuse? I know that's why I hate her.
** Granted she was exaggerating, but she wasn't actually lying. Sandy has his hands all over that Hank boy in that scene.
* The only thing that bugs me about Rachel is that she's such a drama queen. CharacterDevelopment has turned her into less of a diva which is just fine. Though, Lea Michelle is reportedly a huge diva off-stage.
* First off, I would like to state that I am subject to many surgeries, and am wheelchair bound often and most of my reactions to the way people react would be similar if not more optimistic than Artie. But there's one thing I can't accept- [[DudeNotFunny Rachel pushes Artie towards the edge of the stage not once, not twice BUT THREE TIMES!]] [[ThisIsUnforgivable That's awful!]] Worse yet, nobody even worries that this might get him seriously injured. But even so, even if it wasn't toward the edge of the stage, having somebody shove your wheelchair across the room is just insulting. I mean, shoving somebody is standing up would be met with indignation or worse. This isn't just sensitivity to people with disabilities- '''this is a basic personal space issue.'''
** The Glee Club, Schuester included, does have a tendency to just run up and start spinning Artie around like a toy without his permission. The character doesn't mind, but in real life that's usually not the case. In fact, it's freaking rude.
*** Yes, but sometimes it's part of the choreography for a performance, like in their first version of "Don't Stop Believing" where Artie ''couldn't'' move himself because he was playing guitar. Presumbably this is stuff that they worked out ahead of time that Artie agreed to. He's also shown that he has no problem if anyone wants to do the work for him and push his chair around at school or elsewhere.
*** Artie seems too nice to really say anything though (at least initially). He may in fact mind very much (in some cases outside of the dancing and singing) but he isn't comfortable yet to say "Hey, stop that!" or it may not be a big enough bother to him that he says anything. It's just stupid quirks he deals with from his non-wheelchair bound friends. As well, we're missing a lot of the non-verbal communication - just like you know without anything being said that situation A is okay for you to grab the hand of your friend and pull them somewhere to show them something (or whatever) while situation B isn't okay, there may be a lot of that between Artie and the others where they know "This is okay now" and "This isn't okay now". Take the scene in a recent episode where Artie and Finn are in the locker room and Beast says "Well, what are you two waiting for? Get your gear on and get out on the field!". At that point, Finn pushes Artie out of the locker room, that may be one of those situations where there's not need for a verbal; they're both clearly excited and happy, they're both going to the same place. Likewise in Throwdown when the entire club storms out; certainly, Artie might wheel himself to the stairs, but if everyone's pissed (including Artie), again, they're going to know "Well Artie's pissed and storming off with us..." and just go to grab his chair as opposed to just leaving him there. But in situations where say... he's just talking to Finn during casual conversation, the two might have enough experience with each other that Finn knows not to try to push Artie around unless Artie says something or there's some reason to.
* Does Rachel really even love her two dads? We see what, one picture of them in one of the first episodes, and then she only ever brings them up to threated suit. Combined with the way she treats Kurt (although not entirely undeserved, I'd hate him too), and her character could easily be interpreted as homophobic.
** She probably does love her dads and she probably isn't homophobic. The one picture isn't any real sign since we never see much of the other kids parents either (with a few exceptions). Bringing them up is probably like any other kid say "Well my dad/mom is a lawyer/doctor/firefighter/senator/biker/badass and they'll beat your dad up/beat you up/sue you/is more badass than your dad!"; it's more just a childish way of threatening someone and showing that you're better. And though she may not like Kurt (or whatever), she hardly seems to have any sort of fear of gays much less discriminate against them.
* In the second season premiere, her diva tendencies might just cost the team their next competition. Great job making me hate you again, Rach'.
** In 'Britney/Brittany', Rachel is at her most psychotic. 'I want to be the ''only'' thing that makes you happy.' for one, and then forcing Finn to choose between her and football (I think it's an easy choice: [[spoiler: football]]) and rather consolidated the fact that she's INSANE. I hope that 'The Only Exception' might be signaling CharacterDevelopment, but then again, this is ''Glee''...
** She doesn't make him choose at the end of the episode, though, which definitely DOES signal CharacterDevelopment. If StatusQuoIsGod happened, she would bring up her issue with football again and again, but she doesn't. And I would argue sending Sunshine Corazon to a defunct crackhouse because she could potentially take away Rachel's solos is the most psychotic she's ever been.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Santana "angry stares"]]
This borderlines WMG, but since I don't actually have a theory I will post here. Santana is often giving "evil stares" or "death stares", specifically to Rachel, mostly notable in episode 8 during the song "Sweet Caroline" (that looked like she was jealous of Rachel), episode 9 during the song "Defying Gravity" (that just bugs me? does it means that she likes Kurt better?) and mostly notable, in the same episode she gives one to Brittany and Becky (disgust? disapproval?)
* Well, Santana ''was'' shown previously dating Puck. So, even though ''she'' broke up with ''him'', maybe she's just jealous that he's turning his attentions to Rachel, who ''is'' supposed to be a loser.
* Okay for "Hairography", why did Santana call Puck "her man" when ''she dumped him'' in "Acafellas" for not having a big enough credit score?
** But why show a "evil stare" in the middle of Defying Gravity? There is so many times to do it, but putting in the middle of a song, should mean something...
*** [[{{Juno}} Maybe that's just her face.]]
** Hey, she's still in high school. She probably doesn't know what she wants in a relationship yet, and keeps changing her mind about Puck.[[/folder]]
[[folder:Choral arrangements do not work that way! (usually)]]
* Most of Mr. Schuester's arrangements consist of one long solo and everyone else is stuck with oohs and aahs. In real life while arrangements have solos most groups, especially in show choirs keep the solos short, usually at the beginning of the song. The two main reasons are, one, that long solos make drama, very unnecessary drama. And two, they look really bad in competition. Most judges view long flashy solos as a way of the chorus coping out of more complicated harmonies and hiding the fact that they can't blend.
** This. So. Much. Short solos can be two measures, and even the longer ones are a pretty short section of a song. In the show, Proud Mary is probably the closest one to a show choir song, and sadly, Carmel's (fancy moves and crazy difficulty withstanding) is closest. (Seriously, where is he buying these arrangements, because it's not from a company that sells show choir music.)
** See above about the other person complaining about the music in the show.
** Taken to the extreme in "Don't Rain on My Parade," where the rest of the show choir isn't even there.
** RuleOfCool, RuleOfFunny, RuleOfDrama. The show never promised an accurate depiction of show choir strategies.
*** Meh. Rule of this, rule of that, can be used to justify anything. but if you are making a show based around a Glee club and their performances, then there should at least be a slight touch of realism in how those performances are done.
**** If you want realism watch a documentary, not a musical.
*** Does the MST3KMantra apply to non-science fiction shows?
*** The MST3KMantra applies to anything that requires WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief. This is a comedy-drama that requires solos. While I agree that other characters need the solos and there should be less of them, it makes for better television. So... there you go!
* Actually, this sadly does happen sometimes. In my Jazz choir, even though several singers were just as good if not better than one of the girls, she was the go-to girl for solos because the teacher was convinced that she was the best. Most of the time the teacher didn't even bother asking any of the rest of us if we would like to try out for the solo, and the rest of us would be stuck with oohs and ohs.
** The set list at Regionals moves a ''little'' closer to what an actual show choir does. There are more solos and they're spread out among more people and grat focus is given to the choir as a whole rather than one or two singers while everyone else does backup, and in general as the season progressed the actual "performance" pieces (i.e. the numbers that are performed as an entire choir, on stage, for the purpose of possible competition) have been including more and more members of the club for solos and putting a greater emphasis on the '''entire''' choir in general, rather than just one or two soloist. "Faithfully" is still, essentially, a duet between Finn and Rachel, but yeah, sometimes you just have to DO a duet that way. "Anyway You Want It/Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin'" and "Don't Stop Believing" TheCastShowoff for the ENTIRE cast rather than just one or two of them. I wouldn't get ''too'' used to it as this was the finale, but it's a taste of how things ''might'' go in the second season, with greater emphasis on the group rather than the individuals.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Continuity]]
* Is it just me, or does Glee have continuity issues? In the first few episodes, Will doesn't know Emma likes him, but when she announces she's marrying Ken he acts disappointed in a way indicating that he has feelings for her too. There's other examples, but that's the one that sticks out in my mind the most.
** Willful obliviousness is one of Will's character traits; the fact that he acts as though there's nothing between him and Emma doesn't mean that there isn't anything there. That notwithstanding, there are several episodes that explicitly show something stronger developing between Will and Emma until Ken calls her on it and gets her to start dating him.
** Also, Will at the time was happily married. He was trying to maintain a professional relationship by simply ignoring any chemistry.
* One thing I noticed in "Hairography" is that, even though a major change was made in the previous episode, with Quinn staying with Finn and his mom, this was not mentioned at all. In fact, somehow Quinn is already wandering off with Puck as if she and Finn didn't have as strong of a relationship as they seemed to in the last episode (even though they seem to press "reset" at the end).
* And then there's the romance between Artie and Tina, which was barely hinted at before "Wheels", looked like it was going to become a continuing story arc, and then was never mentioned afterward.
** Well... There wasn't actually anything hinted at it in the ''script'' itself before "Wheels," but the writers and producers told Kevin and Jenna about their characters upcoming romance well before they ever started shooting it so they ad-lib little bits on their own, such as Artie and Tina usually sitting together, having her push him around school, and being paired in several of the dance numbers together. As for not mentioning it afterward Artie and Tina simply haven't gotten the same level of focus (i.e. any at all) since "Wheels" ran, so we just don't know how it will play out yet. Both of their actors seem very sure they'll end up together though, and are certain ''very'' close in real life.
* In episode 10 Quinn is kicked out of her house and moves in with Finn while Puck tells Mercedes that he's the true dad. The next episode Quinn and Puck consider raising the baby...while no mention of these 2 pretty major facts are made?! And in episode 12 Quinn refers to baby as a bastard despite wanting just a week earlier and Mercedes still hasn't said anything!
** The baby is a bastard - "the illegitimate offspring of unmarried parents"
* In the third episode, Kurt claims that his dad let him have his own car basically on the condition that he stop acting so gay. This seems completely out of character for the man we're introduced to just one episode later.
** Being gay doesn't mean you have to have a hope chest full of tiaras. I think Burt's main concern is that Kurt is going to get hurt. He also probably didn't like that Kurt was basically lying to him.
** Just because Kurt's father is ''accepting'' of Kurt being gay, doesn't mean he likes it, and it certainly doesn't mean he's comfortable with some of the more ... [[{{Understatement}} overly]] [[CampGay flamboyant]] aspects of Kurt's character. He is trying really hard to accept his son for who he is, but ultimately it is still something that makes him uncomfortable. Also, while he is okay with his son being ''gay'', there are ways of expressing gayness without being CampGay -- see StraightGay. Nevertheless, Kurt and his father also get CharacterDevelopment (possibly bordering on CharacterizationMarchesOn) since that episode. Whereas Kurt was perfectly happy to lie to his dad about the condition of having the car, and his dad seems to be a lot more disapproving of Kurt's gayness, in ''Ballads'' we clearly see Kurt deliberately choosing not to do certain things which would hurt his father even though they are extremely important to him -- ie throwing the ending of ''Defying Gravity'' -- and in return his father talks to him and explains how he feels about the phone call instead of acting gruffly and uncommunicative as in the first couple of episodes.
*** In the most recent episode (Theatricality), Kurt's dad has obviously changed his attitude about Kurt's homosexuality - he stands up for Kurt against Finn in a CrowningMomentofAwesome.
*** I read a fanfic that gave a good explanation. Mercedes explained what happened, offered to pay for the damages, and asked Burt why Kurt couldn't have his car back, mentioning what Kurt said about him finding the hope chest of tiaras. Burt explained that he was scared at the idea of people throwing things at Kurt's car, especially while Kurt was inside it, and that, this time, it was Mercedes, who wouldn't hurt Kurt, but next time, it could be someone who had darker intentions. He acknowledged that it wasn't exactly fair but that, as a father, he had to do certain things to help control his fears of Kurt being hurt. Kurt either lied to soothe Mercedes's guilt or was genuinely mistaken about the reason; I don't remember which. Granted, it was a fanfic, but I thought the author did a good job of giving a plausible, in-character explanation for the changes in canon.
*** I think Burt is simply a case of CharacterizationMarchesOn. The Burt we've seen is one who spoils and supports his son. The only time he didn't give into Kurt's whims was when Kurt wanted him to stop dating Carole. Even when Kurt was planning to miss their annual Friday dinner, Burt didn't threaten to ground him or outright forbid him from blowing it off. He simply argued, said he was disappointed, and left it at that. This Burt wouldn't take Kurt's car away because of a chest full of tiaras. In fact, he'd probably be the one who bought them and the chest.
* Where the hell is Quinn living now? She got kicked out so she's staying with Finn except Finn can't stand to be in the same room with her - is she still living in his basement?
** This was solved in Laryngitis; Quinn is currently living with Puck.
** And now Mercedes. All of which actually makes sense. Finn and Puck both wanted to prove they could be fathers (established as canon) and so offered her a place to stay. Since Finn was her first choice, she went to him first.
* Now we have it with Brittany and Artie. A lot must take place offscreen because apparently he was supposed to want her back at some point between 2.04 and 2.06. This was never hinted at until the 'This is what you missed' in 2.06. I'm seriously getting to the point where I feel this show has NegativeContinuity unless stated otherwise.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Hairography]]
!! Hairography (the episode).
* Almost every one of the characters pretty much had [[DethroningMomentOfSuck Dethroning Moments of Suck]] here. From Sue leaking out the setlist ''right after'' Will and her have a genuine (not that way) moment, Puck's "sexting", Rachel's epic fail "seduction" of Finn, Kurt's manipulation of Rachel, Quinn being man needy, Mercedes getting up in the middle of the deaf choir's song (as someone else put it: "Yo I'm really happy for you and I'mma let you finish, but WE normal people can sing y'all"), Santana's "your man" line...And these are all characters I ''liked'', seriously. Anyone else seriously bothered by this episode in general in terms of characterization?
** Will and Sue did ''not'' have a moment. Will had a moment and Sue lied to his face like she's done not only to him, but other people countless other times.
** For Puck and Sue, those parts were really less [[DethroningMomentOfSuck Dethroning Moments of Suck]] than actually consistent with their characterization thus far. Santana hasn't had much characterization, but what little she ''has'' had definitely depicted her as an unsympathetic character.
*** I dunno, Puck seemed like he had been getting some characterization lately as someone who was willing to commit for the sake of the baby -- this seemed like a really, really painful and dethroning incidence of StatusQuoIsGod.
** Also the deaf choir CLEARLY didn't mind the Glee kids joining them in the song, it looks more like they were actually happy about it because they were able to teach a valuable lesson about being yourself over Hollywood showboating. Notice the first two people to join them are Mercedes and Artie, the two characters who never bothered to hide anything about themselves.
*** And Brittany was pretty close behind. It was more like they turned their practice into a jam session, rather than took over their performance. I think the kids would have told them to piss off if they had a problem with it, but actually the soloist and Mercedes seemed to be kind of flirty.
**** Plus, the rest of the Glee kids try to follow along with the sign language. They definitely weren't trying to overshadow them.
***** Of course, there's still UnfortunateImplications, that the deaf kids aren't exactly valuable on their own as a glee club, but they are good as something to Learn a Valuable Lesson from. They weren't allowed (by the writers, or whoever) to perform the song by themselves.
***** See the above statement about turning the performance into a jam session, such things actually do happen between competing glee clubs in real life (not during actual competition, mind you). If the deaf choir had a problem they would have spoken up, or their director certainly would have.
* Also, the deaf cellphone jokes were unfunny and downright ''insulting'' to deaf people. In fact, the whole treatment of the hearing impaired in Hairography was demeaning and chock filled with UnfortunateImplications.
** The director was an asshat. The kids were really cool. Just because somebody is deaf (in one ear. SCARLET FEVER!) doesn't mean they can't be a jerk, idiotic or grate on your nerves harder than a nerve-grating record holder. I thought what they did with the kids was really well handled but also that the director part was showing a less showcased "disabled people can be arrogant annoying tools too y'know"
* What really irked me about the Kurt/Rachel dynamic in that episode was the blatant lie at the end of it that was treated as canon truth, that Rachel was just a distraction and Finn really wanted to be with Quinn and always had. This despite completely contradicting earlier episodes like when he kissed Rachel for the last time and said he didn't know what would happen in the future, just that he wanted to spend time with her now (translation: I want to be with you, but it turns out I have an obligation to fulfill that will soon make that impossible). Granted, Finn and Quinn have grown as a couple since the start, but it seemed disingenuous to imply their closeness was anything but recent.
** Kurt didn't even know that Rachel had feelings for Finn before this episode. I think it's safe to assume he has no idea that Finn feels the same way or that they've kissed.
** Hi, I'm dramatic irony. Pleased to meet you

!! Hairography (the dancing)
The whole purpose of the Hairography dancing and the episode was to distract from the bad dancing and singing. The girl's school's singing wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible (they seemed more like a choir than New Directions, which is nearly always a few long solos and backup oohs and aahs) and their dancing, if you looked at it, was really good ''as dancing''. Then, when New Directions did their song, their dancing was better (judging by physical skill level) than most of the rest of their performances, and they totally disregarded the step up they took. I understand the lesson about a personal, heartfelt performance being better in the end, but the whole thing (combined with Rachel's makeover and the weirdly slutty clothes) just felt like a bit of grasping at straws for fanservice.
** New Directions dancing in "Crazy in Love/Hair" is SUPPOSED to be unnatural and bad though. The point was to invoke the CrowningMomentOfFunny as they did with "Push It" but from a totally different direction.
*** I know that, but the girl's school's dancing was slutty and looked like PCD, yes, but the dancing itself for the most part took talent and some skill, but Rachel was all "It's all fake they actually suck blah blah blah." It's also possible to dance while using "Hairography" without all the girls in the group wearing skimpy clothes, but somehow in both Hairograpy numbers the chicks were wearing short shorts and tank tops. The whole thing just didn't ring true for me.
**** Keep in mind that this is a school for mostly lower-class students who have had troubled lives and their director is played by ''Eve'' (who can hardly be called conservative). They originally wanted Whitney Houston, but she turned them down.
* ThisTroper thought that Rachel was right, the girls were not very good but the annoyance came in when Rachel, trying to make Will feel better, points out their hairography and instead of thinking this is a bad thing Will decides to put all the guys in wigs and have them dirty dance.

!!The scene with the deaf kids in Hairography.
* Why does everyone think that this was a really touching scene? The only thing I could think during the whole scene was that the Glee kids were stealing the spotlight from these deaf kids who were trying as hard as they could to sing.
** This was mentioned above under "Hairography".
*** This troper finds this a case of positive discrimination. If the kids were simply ''tone'' deaf and singing off key, it'd be fine for people to roll their eyes and wonder why they were in a choir. However because the kids are completely deaf, suggesting that they shouldn't perhaps competing in a genre that requires the ability to detect sound, becomes immediately taboo. Even if we take the viewpoint that everyone should be free to express themselves in whatever way they see fit, regardless of disability, it still doesn't explain how one would objectively judge a deaf choir against a hearing choir with perfect pitch.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Pregancies (Terri and Quinn Issues)]]
!! Is there any real reason that Terri started, then continued, lying about her pregnancy?
* From what I can tell, Terri didn't tell Will when she found out that she had a hysterical pregnancy ''only'' because she didn't have the heart to do so when he was so excited about having a kid. Okay, maybe that makes sense in that moment, but afterward, why would she continue to lie until she became pretty much stuck with somehow faking an entire pregnancy (which is just not possible)? Why didn't she come clean earlier or at least pretend to miscarry? (Yes, she's a DumbBlonde and kind of crazy, but what's her motivation?)
** Terri tells her sister that Will already has one foot out the door (which isn't actually true, but Terri seems to have some abandonment issues) and that the baby is the only thing keeping him around.
*** In episode 12, it's made all the more clear that she did it out of severe abandonment issues.
**** Not to mention as time goes on, the lie kinda keeps building on top of itself. Maybe it would have been easy to pass it off early on but a month or two in after everything she'd done... that makes it kinda hard to simply say "Sorry, I lied! It's a fake. What do you want for dinner?" Terri, for all her flaws, loves or at least wants Will... and seeing him break is more than she can stand. So the more jazzed he gets about the matter, the harder it is to reveal the truth until something inevitably... something happens and reality sets in.
*** Well, she at least tried to get pregnant for real at first, but she probably tried for too long and too late. Also, "hysterical pregnancy" has a psicological element, so while it doesn't justify in a logical level, it showed that she ''would'' act like that.
** After re-watching the episodes on DVD, it made more sense. Soon after Terri found out about her hysterical pregnancy, she was panicking while asking her sister how she should go about telling Will. Her sister told her to keep up the act, because it could ruin her marriage otherwise. Later, Sue told her that Will was already having an affair with Emma at school, and that she needs to become a nurse to keep a close eye on him, less her marriage crumble to pieces. Her sister, Sue, and her severe personality disorder caused her to be misinformed, and acting irrationally. If anything she's a woobie to me.
!!Fans and their pregnancy wisdom
* Why is it that most fans seem to think Quinn's baby is made of spun sugar? "Omg, she jumped on that mattress! She's going to kill the baby!" "Omg, she's laying on her stomach, it's squished!" "Omg! She slipped and fell, she's going to miscarry!" And it's always the ones that have never been pregnant who are saying this.
** I think that the mattress scene was the only really dangerous (it did have jumping), but yeah, that is a bit of overreaction with a bit of GenreBlindness.
*** Quinn jumping on the mattresses wasn't that dangerous, her baby bump's not big enough to inhibit her movement yet. In fact she spent most of the time lounging on the mattress while the other kids jumped. The blond doing the flips was Brittany.
** It is kind of dangerous that Quinn was doing dangerous cheer leading stunts while pregnant (and what we've seen of the Cheerio routines has made it pretty clear that they aren't simple). However it is very annoying when some fans started complaining about her doing simple dance moves like the ones in "You Keep Me Hanging On" and "Hair/Crazy In Love". Just walking around really fast does not make you miscarry.
** A lot of Glee's fans are high school kids. Abstinence-only sex ed only just recently lost its federal funding, and the stuff they're hearing outside of school is probably worse. So most of them don't know nearly as much about reproductive health as they probably should.

!!Baby needs a home
* So, Terri still wants the baby after what happened in Mattress?
** Possible, she just lost her husband and she might think a baby would fill the void. Nevermind the fact that she doesn't really have any way of caring for a child on her own as she barely works, but Terri doesn't really seem think things like that all the way through.
*** I think that before Will left Terri, Quinn was going to give the baby to her, then maybe she won't because the baby won't have a father figure anymore and what happens to the baby is about the second 1/2 of the season.
* I bet you 50 bucks that baby is going to Shelby Corcoran, another woman unable to have kids who always dreamed of having one.
** Sue would be another surprising (and hilarious) option.

!!Puck getting Quinn drunk
* The show implies that Puck deliberately got Quinn drunk to have sex with her. Why doesn't anyone realize how [[RapeIsLove immoral that is]]? And on that note, why doesn't Quinn tell Finn or her parents this?
** The only evidence we have of this is Quinn's word. She tells Puck that she slept with him because "[he] got [her] drunk on wine coolers and [she] was feeling fat that day". This is during the same argument where she calls Puck a Lima loser. She might have just said that to hurt him, or she might be using the fact that she'd had a drink or two to justify what she did in her own mind. We'll never know how drunk she actually was, unless they do a flashback.
*** Agreed. Let's not forget the background Quinn comes from; she's taken a chastity vow and has been taught that extramarital sex is immoral and anti-Christian, so it's probably hard for her to admit both to herself and to Puck that she actually wanted the sex. It would be in keeping with the ''Glee'' writers' position on how the abstinence movement denies female sexual desire (remember Rachel's "Girls want sex just as much as guys do" comment?) that a girl who buys into the celibacy movement would have trouble acknowledging her desire for sex and would feel obliged to frame it as the guy's idea.
*** They did a flashback, and the answer was "not very".
** They were probably BOTH drunk.
*** Both parties being drunk doesn't disqualify it from being rape. If the other person says no and you ignore it, you can be completely blinkered, it's still a crime.
*** But there is no indication Quinn ever said "no" to the drink or the sex, just that she regretted her own actions later.
** Given the fact that Quinn's parents are religious, I doubt they'd accept "I was drunk" as an excuse for Quinn's getting pregnant, regardless of Puck's actions.
** If you want a more blatant case look at what Sue did to Principal Figgins (although whether or not she actually did have sex with him is unclear. She ''did'' still drug him, drag him off to a sleazy motel and use that as material for blackmail).
* The season finale showed that they were making out and Puck basically talked her into going through with sleeping with him, she did go through with it willingly.

!!Quinn eating the drug filled cupcakes
Surely that would be bad for the baby, so why didn't Puck stop her?
* We don't actually see her eat a cupcake, just her wiping frosting off her hands, which makes sense since she was handing them to people. The only glee club member we actually see eating them is Santana. Besides 1 cupcake with a little bit of pot won't harm a baby that much (think about how many babies have survived mothers that are heavy drinkers or actually smoked pot).
** You're kidding me right? This troper's friend's mother smoked pot (and took heroin) when she was pregnant with him. And you know what? Not a single birth defect, as a matter of fact he weighed in at a very healthy 9lbs at birth and was 5 foot eight by the time he was in 7th grade. If anything the pot HELPED him.
** And this is pot we're talking about, not cocaine or even alcohol. Many of the "harmful effects" of pot are exaggerated or at least debatable, and largely depend on the motivations of those conducting the studies. Not that it's a good thing to do if you're pregnant, but there's a big difference between a pregnant woman smoking/eating pot and one on hard drugs.
* What really bugged me about the cupcakes was their explanation of how they sold so many. Walk through this with me. They can't sell any cupcakes. Puck makes it so that anyone who has a cupcake wants more cupcake (not how the munchies work anyway, but oh well). Suddenly everyone wants a cupcake, even though they would have needed to eat a cupcake in the first place to "get the munchies", which they clearly weren't doing. [[FridgeLogic Fridge Logic]] anyone?
** Two words: free samples. Who would turn down a free cupcake?

!!What's going to happen to Quinn?
Is Finn ''still'' going to take care of her, even after he found out the baby wasn't his or is he going to kick her out? Is she going to move in with Puck? Is she going to live on the street?
** That's what the second half of the season is probably for.
** "Laryngitis" confirmed that she's living with the Puckermans now.

!!Baby Bump
* The visibility of Quinn's pregnancy seems to be constantly going back and forth. In the dance sequence with the girls in the Madonna episode, it wasn't even there. It's rather inconsistent.
** Diana (who plays Quinn) said that she was definitely wearing the baby bump for that sequence, it's just that the corset the girls were wearing made it seem like it wasn't there.
*** What is a pregnant girl doing wearing a corset.
**** What is a pregnant girl doing on the Cheerios squad? What is a pregnant girl doing jumping around on mattresses? What is your statement doing with a question mark? Quinn has obviously demonstrated poor choices in her treatment of her body while pregnant (though based on an above section it really isn't that bad; as a male I have no idea). Also? She has no money and is getting no support from her parents; has she been seeing doctors who will tell her "Don't wear a corset"? None of us know. It is completely reasonable to accept her doing something this silly. Also? She's wearing a corset during a SONG AND DANCE NUMBER with an INSTANT COSTUME CHANGE. Dianna Agron isn't really pregnant.
***** No shit the actress isn't pregnant, genius. But she ''has'' been seeing doctors. This is ''shown'' to us. It's been ''shown'' that she is taking extreme cases during her pregnancy to be incredibly careful. When she became too pregnant she was thrown off the cheerios. Then she stopped doing extreme strenuous and dangerous dance moves when she got too pregnant. And during the mattress scene she was only sitting on the mattresses or basically just standing on them, she wasn't doing extreme stunts and flips on them with everyone else. hen you're ''seven months pregnant'' and you can't even fit into a pair of jeans anymore, it should be a little more than common knowledge to anyone with a set of lungs to not wear a corset.

!! Custody Laws
* This is less of an issue after the finale, but this has been bugging me since Quinn first said she wanted to give up the baby. Both Finn and Puck several times say they want to be fathers, want to keep the baby, and Quinn tells them they can't, because she's giving her up. CUSTODY LAWS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. The father has to actually, legally give up his rights to the child before she can be put up for adoption. It's mentioned several times, a few times in front of adults who would know of these laws even if kids wouldn't, that Finn (and later, Puck) want to keep the baby or at least be in her life, but Quinn is never called on the fact that she can't stop them! At least not without involving a court! Gah, it bugs the crap out of me.
** Well it's not like she was actually acting like their wanting to be fatherhood was ''actually'' legally binding or counting as official custody. It was made pretty clear that they both were well aware that Quinn is the one who had the decision.
*** But. She doesn't have the decision. Their wanting to be an actual father to the baby WAS legally binding and DOES count as official custody. That's the part that bugged me--both Quinn and the father has a right to the baby, to decide whether or not to keep it after it's born. This is never addressed [[spoiler:except maybe in the finale? When Puck is actually given the choice? But even then it's more implied that Quinn is allowing him the option rather than Puck enacting on his own rights as the father]].
** I think the point is that Finn and Puck both wanted to raise the baby ''with Quinn'', and Quinn has no interest in starting a family with anyone at this point in her life. It may have never occurred to either boys that becoming a single dad was an option.
** Similarly, [[spoiler:Shelby would not have been able to immediately take Beth]]. This sort of thing generally requires court appearances and during that time, the child would be placed with a foster family.
*** She could if it's a private adoption and both parents agreed to give her the baby. It's happened before. The less government involvement, the less time it takes. Of course, there's no good reason why Quinn and Puck would want to give her the baby though.
**** Perhaps because she is a stable adult who could raise the baby in a loving home? I'm sure there was more to it than what was shown (especially since there are photos of Puck being comforted by the Glee club after), but her being a healthy adult that ''wanted'' the baby and would love it was probably good enough for Quinn (and Puck seemed to want to agree with Quinn's wishes, even if he did want to raise the baby)?

[[/folder]]

[[folder: Kurt]]
!! KURT.
I get that all the characters are various stereotypes, like dumb blond, evil cheer leader, school bully, and all that. But all of them have added depth, and their stereotypes are deconstructed to show us there is MORE to them than just that.
But there has been nothing in the show to give us any sign that Kurt is anything more than just "the gay guy".
And the way he treats Finn is creepy and revolting, trying to seduce him when he is going through an emotional crisis? He acts meaner to Rachel than Quinn ever did when she was a cheerio, but fans just suck it all up and say "Kurt's gay, so it's okay."
He's the closest thing to a villain in this show below Sue right now.
** Kurt flat-out told her that both of them were behaving inappropriately (he didn't apologize for his actions either though), as it's pretty obvious that for the moment at least Finn wants to be with Quinn and if either of them actually cared about him they should respect that and stop trying to steal him away from a fellow glee club member, and person they are supposed to be supporting through a difficult time. He doesn't make excuses for his action but at least he admits that he was wrong, and their moment at the end of the episode where they watch Finn and Quinn walk away together seems to suggest that all was forgiven between them.
*** And let's not forget how manipulative Rachel can be. Not only has she been "helping" Finn for the sake of the team (read: Finn. Quinn even lampshades it!) she asked Finn over in her new getup.
** Also this show is pretty much fueled by "Love Makes You Dumb". Seriously, is there any romantic relationships that are "smart"?
*** This is high school. LoveMakesYouDumb tends to happen to even the most rational, cold-hearted of teens.
**** As someone who is presently in high school (hooray for non-verifiable anecdotal evidence), I can testify that this is a blatant exaggeration. Considering ''Glee'' has gained a reputation for apparently deconstructing tropes, it seems rather hypocritical that it would play this one painfully straight.
**** And as someone who finished high school less than two years ago, I can testify that this is TruthInTelevision. Everyone's experience is different, I guess.
** The impression I get is that Kurt wants Finn so badly that he's deluded himself into believing not only that it's possible to "turn" Finn, but that Finn would actually be better off with him than with Quinn or Rachel. (And honestly, he might be half-right.) It's not hard to understand his desperation. To a lonely teen with no experience, finding a boyfriend can seem like the key to happiness. Kurt seems to be the only openly gay kid at [=McKinley=] High, so it's not like he has a lot of other options. His actions are reprehensible, of course, but I still feel plenty of sympathy for him.
*** TL;DR: Kurt's gay so it's okay.
**** Um, no. I did not say that it was okay. I said it was ''understandable''. There's a difference.
**** The idea that a homosexual would believe that he was able to 'turn' someone else gay carries a whole heap of UnfortunateImplications itself; it implies that Kurt believes that it is a switch on/switch off choice, rather than something you are born as.
**** Or, maybe, just ''maybe'' Kurt wanted Finn so much that he hoped that maybe Finn was just lying to himself. It's likely he ''knew'' it was a fantasy, but Kurt isn't exactly rational. ThisTroper doubts Kurt seriously thought people could just switch sexualities because of the way Kurt and and his father interact. His father, before some character development, probably would have preferred Kurt had one of those on/off switches. Kurt would know better than to think he could make Finn gay. It was more "if there's even the slightest chance of him being gay, I have to find out" rather than "I know he's straight but he can change!" A rational person would probably not have suggested Rachel "slut it up" in the first place. ThisTroper can attest to wishing someone you had a crush on was actually gay, but this troper never acted on this crush.
**** And thisTroper had the very interesting experience of meeting one young lady, going "holy ''shit''" and falling in love with a girl for the first time in her life. It's not completely unreasonable - I don't think Kurt is hoping to "turn" Finn (this is not ''{{Twilight}}''!) so much as hoping that Finn will have that same sort of "holy shit" moment. I adore Kurt - I think he has his issues, and I really, really love that he's being portrayed as someone believably human. GreyAndGrayMorality, guys. I'm not saying he's not flawed, I'm just saying that he actually is a good person who's been put through absolute shit and that's maybe messed him up a little. I wasn't so unlike him, once. Hell, I still am. He's just desperate to be loved, and he's sixteen. Most of us are completely stupid at sixteen, god knows I was. And I for one am ''really'' looking forward to his upcoming relationship arc - I think it's going to be very, very good for Kurt to be in a healthy romantic relationship with someone and I'm really excited to see what Chris Colfer does with it. TL;DR: ''Kurt is not a bad person.'' He's made mistakes; he's young and desperate to be loved. But this doesn't mean he's evil. So seriously? Leave the guy alone, all right?
** It is VERY odd that this day and age our beloved Kurt couldn't just... find a date on-line, I know is sort of dangerous, but to gay guys is a worth option.
*** This is a TV Show. If he ever tries online dating, all bets are it's gonna be a murderer, kidnapper, or something equally nice.
**** Probably a woman. Or, if the writers don't feel like they're offending enough of the population, a transman.
** Also, Another UnfortunateImplications is that: Be nice to a gay guy = He will fall in love with you. * Shudders*
*** I don't see what Kurt being a gay guy has to do with that. Lots of people are attracted to kindness, this straight female troper included.
**** I agree, but the thing about implications is that they don't actually need to be true. Kurt is over the top camp gay, is not hard to see some people buying it. There is also the fact that it looks like Finn is the only male character to be nice to him (I don't know about Artie though)
*** I think it was implied that he was infatuated with Finn before they actually knew each other, and actively cultivated a friendship in hopes that Finn would eventually return his feelings. They are in the same class, with Brittany, but since Finn was a big dumb jock and Kurt is a loser, it's unlikely they ever interacted at all before Finn joined Glee--it started out as one of those crushes where you don't know anything about the person but you like them anyway.
**** But this is how some romances happen - straight or gay. You find someone you're infatuated with and cultivate a friendship. Either it dies, it happens, or it remains just friends.
*** This straight troper has ended up with be nice = fall in love (or at least, saying I was cute and so on and so forth). There's nothing wrong with that as long as one is able to handle such attraction maturely rather than (to paraphrase someone) "If they express attraction what I perceive as an unwanted advance to me, I'll get really angry and punch them a lot."
*** Though it seems pretty damn manipulative from an adult point of view to befriend someone with the intention of seducing them, it's pretty common in high school - both for straight couples and gay couples. Let's not forget that Rachel and Puck are doing the same thing, with Finn and Quinn respectively. In Kurt's defense, he's secretly aware of the fact that Finn is straight and thus can't return his feelings, and stays friends with him anyway. What makes it immature is if the infatuated one drops their new "friend" like a hot potato as soon as it becomes apparent that their crush is unrequited. (Or inversely, if the other person wants nothing to do with their friend/admirer once they find out their feelings for them are more than friendly... ThisTroper had this happen to her in high school, from a guy who was probably secretly gay himself. Thus for me, Kurt scores major points for having the maturity to ''not'' do this to Mercedes.) "Befriend them" makes sense as a tactic, when you think about it, seeing as some of the best relationships evolve out of friendships, and geeky, awkward kids in particular would have trouble asking out someone they didn't already know.
* The fact that there are no other gay characters to show they might be aware that being gay doesn't automatically include Beyonce and leotards is kind of grating too. The only other gay character in the show? Sandy the pedophile. Nice.
** Oh, and there's also Rachel's dads. .... who raised her a spoiled brat on showtunes and Barbra Streisand worship.
*** This actually a reason why I dislike her character, she is sort of a UnfortunateImplications about gay-parenting.
** Hopefully his boyfriend won't be a stereotype.... or at least not as much of one.
*** WordOfGod says the boyfriend will be a 'regular guy'.
* To me Kurt's interactions with Finn didn't come across as creepy, or at least not more so than Rachel's. They actually have enough in common that they're believable as friends, even though obviously there's the {{Subtext}} of Kurt being in love with Finn and Finn not really wanting to address the issue.
* I have to talk about this someplace. I adore Kurt, but him throwing the 'Defying Gravity' audition in "Wheels" was pretty weak. Especially in light of the song being about how 'no one's going to bring me down' his dad gets one phone call (what, all that money and a place of business has no Caller ID?) saying his son is a fag (which his dad already knew), and Kurt folds like an origami weaksauce. That's UnfortunateImplications on a grand scale: for pennies a day, for the price of a single phone call, you too can bully your own gay kid into backing down.
** Kurt wasn't throwing it for himself though, he was throwing it to protect his Dad. While he was strong enough to deal with being called a fag (he even says something to the extent of "so what? that happens all the time") his father wasn't so Kurt chose to put his Dad's needs in front of his wants. My interpretation was more "for pennies a day, for the price of a single phone call, you too can bully a straight father"
** In addition to the above, the song is also partly about giving up your dreams in the cold light of reality, and forging new, more realistic ones from the ashes. In this respect, Kurt giving up his own dream (of singing the song in front of a large audience) to spare his father the pain that would come with it is very much in keeping with the theme. This can be seen in part of the omitted preamble to the song, which involves the lines:
-->'''Glinda''': "You can have all you ever wanted..."
-->'''Elphaba''': "I know. But I don't want it... no. I ''can't'' want it. Any more..."
* Everything about Kurt trying to manipulate his father and Finn's mother and then plotting to tear them apart when it didn't work out as well as he'd hoped (and by that, I mean HE didn't get anything out of it). This, in addition to how he treated Rachel with the whole makeover nonsense, makes him come off as a really manipulative and selfish person. Not very sympathetic, at least for me.
** Possibly because he wasn't supposed to come off as sympathetic? He was supposed to be seen as manipulative and selfish?
** Not to mention that everyone I talked to asked me if he was ALWAYS that creepy after ''Home''. The {{Unfortunate Implications}} of having a stalkerish, selfish, manipulative guy... who happens to be the only gay character on the show? Yeah, good job, writers.
*** Really, the bonding moment at the end between Finn and Kurt's dad was nice in a quiet way, heart warming way. Then it shows Kurt STANDING RIGHT OUTSIDE FINN'S WINDOW just ''watching'' them while crying. I didn't know whether to laugh at the narm, or to freak out over just how creepy it was.
*** That would only have UnfortunateImplications if all of the straight characters were well-adjusted and virtuous. This is ''Glee''. Kurt is by no means the worst person on the show.
**** My problem with Kurt is how the character is handled. ''Nobody ever calls him on his crap''. He's always the poor gay guy who's life sucks (which is completely understandable, I can let that one slide) who can get away with anything because boohoo his life sucks (which is FAIL). I can't stand the character, and find him utterly unsympathetic, and what annoys me most is he's always portrayed as the innocent victim. The breaking point was when he yelled at his father for having the nerve to talk to Finn about football. How dare Burt have a common interest with someone?!? And at the end of the episode everybody's learned an important lesson... but Kurt, who acted like a selfish jerk to his father, his father's girlfriend and Finn, gets off scot-free because he's gay so it's okay. All the other characters get called on the crap they pull, but Kurt's always the poor innocent victim, which apparently is supposed to completely justify him being a manipulative, self-obsessed, borderline-delusional jerk. Finn had a point when he said that it's fine that Kurt is so different from everybody, but Kurt assumes everyone else is as flamboyant and as different as he is, and it's their fault for not being the same as him. That would seem to be ''ENORMOUSLY'' hypocritical for the token gay character. Being gay is not a get-out-of-jail-free-card for being a jerk, but ''Glee'' treats Kurt that way, and it's infuriating.
***** The scene you cite had nothing to do with him being gay really re: him being forgiven. He overreacted to the fact that one of the only people he's close to, his Dad, was spending less time with him. He admitted that, his Dad said he could see why it was hard. Hardly a shouting match for Burt having a common interest with someone. His Dad forgives him because he's his Dad and sometimes families don't have perfect dynamics, not because Kurt's ''gay'', and Kurt barely did anything (that time) anyway. He just tried to dress differently for a bit to 'act straight' and then had a bit of a tantrum, where his Dad called him out on acting the victim.
* If we're going to go on about characters who are one-dimensional stereotypes, Kurt is hardly the worst offender. That would be ''Mercedes''. As campy as Kurt is, he also likes football and helps his dad out at his car shop. But there is pretty much nothing about Mercedes that doesn't ''scream'' SassyBlackWoman. Tina, too, adheres pretty strictly to the stereotype of the shy, demure Asian girl.
** Tina may be shy, but there's nothing demure about some of the high-octane FetishFuel outfits she wears, like that lolita-inspired number she wore in "Wheels."
** It should also be said that one of the main themes of the show is deconstructing stereotypes to show the ways that people tend to just hide behind their labels. I think the way that all of the characters are almost closer to archetypes than stereotypes, it's set up to show high-school as a caste system, and these kids are using Glee Club to break out of it.
* In defense of Kurt, I think the whole storyline with Finn and the parents was very well done in that he got his comeuppance while remaining sympathetic. When his manipulations were all said and done, the two widowed parents got a second chance at love, Finn got a surrogate father figure, Burt got (though he'd never admit it) the jock son he always wanted, and Kurt was deservedly bit in the ass for doing it all for entirely selfish reasons that were doomed from the start (ie, seducing Finn). But then you see him watching from outside and realize that all he ever wanted was a boyfriend and to be closer to his father, showing that even he can be TheWoobie under the right circumstances. Would he have done all this if he were a rational adult? Probably not. But remember we're watching teenagers here.
** Now Finn is homeless and nobody's holding Kurt accountable for the constant sexual harassment, invasion of personal space, or general hypocrisy. Fail.
*** ... WHAT? Finn left the home at the middle of the episode, and the next scene he was perfectly clean, with different clothes. The next time we see him, he managed to get a GaGa outfit his size. (He's obviously not with Puck, Quinn, or Rachel). Either everything was solved offscreen, or he returned to his old house.
**** Also, what kind of mom would stay with her boyfriend and let her son just wander around town at night? If Finn did get kicked out, probbably both of them left and moved back in to their old house. Which probably isn't much of a loss for Finn anyway, since he didn't want to move to begin with.
***** Finn clearly states that he made the dress from the shower curtain, meaning he must have gone back at some point. It's entirely possible that he never had to leave, and Burt's "You can't live here with that attitude" was supposed to be an ultimatum, rather than a straight-up GTFO.

* Kurt's flaws, sometimes being manipulative, selfish and even vindictive are exactly what makes him avoid the UnfortunateImplications. By showing that he's not perfect, or worse yet, a MagicalQueer, this makes him just like everyone else.
** Explain to me how making the only gay guy manipulative and selfish is ''NOT'' an unfortunate implication. Because your defense sounds more like you shot yourself in the foot and said "take that."
*** (Not original poster) It's not UnfortunateImplications because, while he's the only gay character(so far) he hasn't been the only one to act this way... basically, EVERY character has had some sort of KickTheDog moment, some more "evil" than the others. Kurt, by being like the other characters(Having both virtues and flaws) avoids the PositiveDiscrimination... and only gets UnfotunateImplications if you ignore everything the other characters do, and focus solely on the fact he likes guys instead of girls... which would be UnfortunateImplications of yourself...
* Alright, It seems as though one of the biggest issues here isn't that Kurt can be a manipulative bastard (which, out of all the characters, he is far from the worst) but that he never gets called for his shit. My question is, Who's going to call him on it? The only characters that really notice how he acts towards Finn, and care, are Rachel and Finn himself. Both of them do, at one point, call him out for his creepy behavior. Unfortunately Rachel doesn't have nearly enough moral high ground for her to be very effective at chastising him. Finn appears to have two modes "Nice to the point of being spineless" and "Raging to the point of being scary" neither of these modes are very good at communicating the message to layoff.
* This gay troper hates the fact that Kurt is so...gay. Most of my gay friends are repulsed by Gaga and Beyonce, have no sense of fashion, and don't act like total prisses. Why can't Kurt be more than just gayer than gay? Why couldn't they make a gay character who is part of the bear community? If they really want to tear apart stereotypes, that would be perfect. For the first part of my high school life, I felt out of place because I was a hairy, masculine guy who was gay. What better dramatic plot point? Then it becomes more about personal identity instead of stereotypes.
** Ah but perhaps they are tearing apart the deconstructed stereotypes... The past decade a lot more media ARE avoiding the gayer than gay males and making them as anti-stereotypical as possible to avoid being called out for stereotypes, and in the end isn't Glee the hotspot for stereotypes. Dumb jock= Finn, Puck. Bitchy Cheerleader= Santana, Quinn. Sassy Black woman= Mercedes. Nerd with thick glasses, braced and suspenders= Artie. I do not think there is a single character that isn't a stereotype. Even bisexuality has an implied stereotype, it seems to be implied that Santana and Brittany are together to entice boys but [[{{YourMilageMayVary}} YMMV]]
*** Funnily enough I have yet to see any character on the entire show who is a big masculine, hairy male... Puck, Karofsky and Burt are borderline but only barely and from the incoming new characters it doesnt seem like that is going to change.
**** This Troper actually believes it is pretty important to the story that Kurt is a more flamboyaunt gay. In real life, you'll meet a lot of people who say things like "I don't mind gays, as long as they aren't flaming". Apparently all gay men have to be super macho and all lesbians have to be super feminine to compensate for the fact that they are homosexual. A more feminine gay man would have a harder time fitting in than a macho one, even if they are out of the closet. A big theme of the show is dealing with discrimination, and the flambouyant gays get waaaaaay more discrimination than the ones who fit their gender stereotypes better.
* It`s a small thing, but Kurts out of the blue "Really Brittany??!!!!" (after she asked if Finn could fly) really bugs me.
* I'm gonna be a dissenting voice here and say that the fandom's ''reaction'' to Kurt at times bugs me. Mainly, the idea that it's terrible to portray it as OK to be "stereotypically" gay (because it's only OK to be gay if you 'act straight'? If every gay guy was like this on the show I'd understand, but we have a sample size of ''one''. It's very offensive to the gay teens and men actually like Kurt to say they're "not allowed.") and the idea that Kurt gets a 'free pass' because he's gay re: being manipulative in regards to Finn. I've heard a lot of, 'if Finn was a girl there'd be a restraining order', except... similar things ''have happened'' with men and women on the show. Like when Will flat out tells Emma that he won't stop pursuing her after she asks him to. Or when Finn more or less ''tells'' Rachel to break up with Jesse. And the difference is: Kurt may not have been explicitly called out, but it never went well for him, did it? Yet Rachel ended up with Finn and Will/Emma seems to be the endgame goal right now.
** Additionally, this idea that Kurt provoking Finn to anger with regards to the "faggy" comment excuses it. Was Finn right to be angry? Absolutely! But the idea that this has anything to do with the use of homophobia as a weapon to 'teach the gay guy a lesson' is totally illogical. Likewise, the idea it justifies telling Kurt, a gay guy, as a straight guy, that he needs to stay away from straight guys because the straight guys just have to deal with so much stress because of it in "Duets" keeps being justified as fine because Kurt... er, had an obsessive crush on him once. Connecting everything bad done to Kurt to his admittedly OTT crush is getting old, and so is acting like it justifies things like treating straight guys' issues to be innately worse as OK.
* Apparently Burt wasn't the only person who didn't get what Rose's Turn was about. It's a song about a manipulative, selfish person realising that their self-centredness has cost them what they really care about it. That's why the scene is immediately followed up by Burt telling Kurt off for acting the victim. And yet people still whine and complain about that episode treating Kurt's whole attitude as being alright...

!! The gaylesball and Kurt's lack of interest for it
* Alright, I get it. All the characters hate Rachel, gosh she's a bitch, blah blah blah. But if Kurt's a good person, wouldn't he take any opportunity he has to make amends with the girl he humiliated in the previous episode? Rachel irritates me as much as she irritates him, but is Kurt really not going to do ANYTHING to try to make things better? And this character is supposed to be sympathetic?
** Sometimes you just don't have any interest in making up with someone. If you grind on them long enough, even nice people will eventually decide it's not worth the effort anymore.
* Not to mention, in my experience a LGTB group in his high school would make his life easier. Who knows, it might have encouraged other cute gay boys to come out of the closet...
* Didn't Rachel tell him that she wanted to start a gaylesball because it would officially make her the most involved student at [=McKinley=]? Maybe he was offended that she was only doing it for that reason. Plus, founding an LGBT group at his school would put Kurt and his sexuality in the spotlight even more, which is something he's already decided to avoid for his dad's sake. Not that any of that excuses his rudeness.
** Rachel's reasons might be selfish, but it was still a good idea. Not to mention that Kurt owed her after the humiliation he made her go through. After Hairography I thought that Rachel would stop talking to Kurt for a while. Not only she didn't, but he shrugged off a undeserved chance to make things better. Also... Wasn't that before he decided to hide his sexuality?
*** Make things ''better''? This is Lima, Ohio. Remember why Kurt threw the Defying Gravity solo? He didn't want to put himself out there to the entire town as a gay guy to be mocked and insulted. What do you THINK a GSA would do? And doing it with Rachel, who he hates and who sees to attract attention for all the wrong reasons, and topped it off with the fact that she's only doing it for the chance to be in a bunch of clubs.
**** Make things better with ''Rachel''. Remember how he got her to dress up like a slut for Finn in Hairography, knowing how Finn would react? He did an incredibly cruel thing. He doesn't have to start a GSA, but is it too much to want him at least to be civil to the girl he owes an apology to?
***** Do we have reason to think that he agrees that he owes an apology?
****** Are we still supposed to think he's a sympathetic character if he doesn't?

[[WMG: Kurt's pity-party over his dad bonding with Finn]]
* Kurt throwing a pity-party after seeing his dad bond with Finn. Now, it would be perfectly understandable if Kurt's dad was one of those JerkJock fathers who refused to accept his son being anything other than an athelete, but Kurt's dad was the complete opposite. He's been nothing but supportive to Kurt throughout the entire series, even threatening to sue the school for ''prejudice'' when Kurt wanted to go for the lead female's vocals. The fact that Kurt set his dad up with Finn's mom, [[ManipulativeBastard just so he himself could get closer to Finn]] only made the idea of Kurt playing the victim all the more hollow.
** Even though Burt is definitely not a JerkJock, I think Kurt realises that he is not Burt's ideal son, and that someone like Finn is, which is why he's upset.
*** Agreed. This is actually the one part of Kurt's storyline in "Home" that didn't bug me.
** Because little things like that can hurt a lot and/or Kurt is over-reacting. Someone already stated on this page that while Kurt's father is loving and accepting of his son, it's apparent he's still not comfortable with the more campy aspects of Kurt's personality and it's really not that much of a stretch seeing Kurt take it so deeply, seeing his father get along with Finn to well.
** But shouldn't Kurt try and show his father the same courtesy that Burt shows him? We know that Kurt actually enjoys playing football and knows his way around cars, so even if Burt and Finn start bonding over sports Kurt should at least make the attempt to try and share with his father in something he likes. We know that Kurt loves his father and hates seeing him hurt, but Kurt can still be incredibly self-centered and insensitive himself, but that's just par for the course, he's a teenager.
** Kurt ''does'' get called out on the fact that he's not showing his father the same courtesy Burt is showing him ''by'' Burt. Kurt blows him off and tells him he wants to be alone and Burt leaves him alone. Kurt is flawed and his relationship with his father is a defining aspect of Kurt's character. It's dynamic. This troper still thinks Kurt is being unfair to his father and an asshole for manipulating Finn's mom and his dad, but it's not as if he gets away with either of these things. Burt and Finn both call him out at least once.
*** He should but he isn't perfect. Isn't that why (in part) it's a good show? Interesting and flawed characters rather than Marty/Mary Sues? :)
*** But the thing is the show seems to be making us side with Kurt. Which annoys me to no end, seeing as how he got this whole thing to get into Finn's pants, and horror of horrors, Finn and his dad actually GASP! get along well! How selfish of Kurt's dad to possibly show any interest in things besides Kurt. In no part of the show did it indicate that Kurt was in the wrong, all it did was do close ups of his puffy lips and diva tears.
**** This troper doesn't see the show trying to make Kurt a victim. Just flawed and pointing out how ridiculous Kurt is being. The show does more to call Kurt out on his idiocy than it does to make him a victim. Note that by the resolution of the plot, Kurt realizes he's being an asshat and makes up with his father rather than his father being "Sorry, I'll stop dating and being nice to a kid who needs a dad". For instance, Burt gave Kurt -many- opportunities to join them (pre- and post-dating). Burt mentions involving Kurt in sports and then brings up Kurt basically being unhappy/not enjoying that - as a result, Burt stopped trying to drag his son into things his son didn't like. Kurt, if anything, needs to be more accepting of his dad and trying to involve his dad in things not the other way around.
** People are giving Kurt WAY too much credit in this one. He introduced his dad to Finn's mom(Sure, for his own selfish plans) but it's not like he ''forced'' them to date, or drugged them or anything. It's actually an example of a plan GoingHorriblyRight as now not only Burt is on an (apparent) serious relationship, but he's bonding with Finn in a way that Kurt ''knows'' will never bond with him.
*** Kurt not only introduced them, but also set up dinner dates between them, convinced Finn's mom to throw out her old stuff and move on, as well as giving her a make-over and pointing out her low-cut jeans to his dad. Kurt was in charge of the whole scheme.
**** Again, too much credit. Either of them could have rejected the idea, but both went along with his devious schemes. He ''might'' have influence on his own father, but there is no way in hell he could have made Finn's mom agree if he didn't not want to move on, at least on some level.
** Original Poster here. After the most recent episode I'm still not anymore sympathetic to Kurt's situation. Now admittedly, it can't be denied that Finn crossed the line by calling Kurt's items "Faggy" but I still find it grating that the show continues to cast Kurt as the victim despite it was Kurt's own manipulations that pushed Finn over the edge in the first place. The main grating part is just that Kurt has still refused to acknowledge [[IgnoredEpiphany his own jerkassness]] in all of this and is continuing portrayed as the victim.
*** The problem is not that Finn was pushed over the edge, it's that when he's pushed over the edge and loses his inhibitions he automatically goes to a gay slur to get his point across. Kurt being manipulative and obsessive is completely unrelated to Finn's used of homophobic language. The two have nothing to do with each other. There's two bad situations... Kurt being obsessive AND Finn being homophobic. They're not comparable or even very connected, just both there. Both of them were victims and instigators in different things.
*** And the reaction by fandom seems to have it backwards, since all this troper has heard is [[WhyDidYouMakeMeHitYou "Kurt, why did you make Finn say such nasty things to you?"]]
*** It's not so much that the fandom is trying to give Finn a free pass as much as it is that Kurt's jerkassness is rarely ever addressed in these incidences and the one time it is, he refuses to even take any of it to heart.
*** Basically, strip away the bad word. Finn was calling Kurt out on Kurt stalking him. Up until that point, Finn, while not doing in the best way was at least justified. The bad word certainly crossed the line and no one is saying it should be overlooked. Turn Kurt in to a girl - would we see Kurt(ina) as sympathetic or would we see her as something less so. Or what if it were a straight guy in Kurt's shoes and Finn was a girl - again, would a guy doing all the things Kurt did be sympathetic? And on the other side, again, Finn could certainly have acted and responded in better ways. In short, ''both'' of them are bad guys in this. The only real sympathetic part comes in because Finn's probably stressed and freaked out over how fast his mom's relationship is going (which doesn't excuse him) and Kurt desperately trying to hold on to his fantasy that he can change Finn or at least make their relationship better only to watch as his actions bring everyone else crumbling down (which again, doesn't excuse him).
**** 'Turn Kurt into a girl'... oh, you mean when Rachel was obsessive about Finn and tried to get him to do things like make out with her when he had a pregnant girlfriend? And she ended up being rewarded by the narrative in a way Kurt wasn't.
**** Nah... turning Kurt into Courtney would set the double standard of [[Twilight "Why Finn doesn't realize Courtney is really truly in love with him and does that crap out of love??". Turning Finn into Fiona would have the same result]]. Basically, Kurt is a creepy stalker mostly because he's into a straight guy. OTOH stripping away the bad word doesn't work... is basically the whole reason Finn crossed the line. Burt wouldn't have been so angry i he had said something else, or if he had only complained about the decor of the room. Hell, he probably would have supported Finn. But jjst think about it: Had Finn said the N-word at a black kid, would ''anyone'' be defending him?. OTOOH, yes, they're both to blame. ''everything'' could have been avoided by "Mom, I don't wanna share a room with Kurt. He's gay and while i don't have a problem with that, i know he has a crush on me and I'm afraid this might get his hopes up or something"
***** We're defending his right to not to get harassed but we're not defending his right to say bad words. Just because we agree with some of what he says, does not agree with everything he says. Same for Kurt - we agree that, slowly, he's realizing the truth of the matter and is trying to make amends and we can and will defend that. We are not however defending his 'right' to be manipulative and stalk people whether he is male or female, whether the target is male or female. The whole point of taking away the bad word is separate those two parts in to less binary terms.
****** I keep on seeing people saying "Faggy" is a bad word. This troper doesn't see how it's so horrible. Sure, using it as a substitute for "All things gay" isn't good, but who cares? Y'all are too caught up in the Politically Correct
******* I think you need to go back and listen to Burt's speech to Finn. He explains why that word is so offensive much more eloquently than I can.
******** But I'm gay and I have nothing against it. Besides, by that logic, "dumb" is also foul as it is a term for being unable to speak, "lame" is as well due to it meaning a hinderance to the ability to walk, or just an inability to walk. "Stupid" also offends on that basis, because it applies to anyone with lower intelligence. Either go completely PC, or realize words take on more than a single meaning as time progresses. Don't forget, as well, that in the gay community, we use the term "queer" (or at least several of us), which originally meant weird or strange.
********* You do realise ''one'' not-straight person being OK with it does not suddenly make it OK in a wider context, and that queer people reclaiming terms isn't the same at all, yes?
********* With all due respect, that's like saying, "I'm a woman and I'm not offended by sexism. Clearly you are all too PC." Or "I'm black and I haven't been personally affected by racism. Clearly you are all too sensitive." Just because ''you'' don't see it as a bad word doesn't mean that it isn't considered one. Also, since Finn was deliberately using it as a slur, and not as a joke or something, it takes on the negative meaning.
********* This troper, having lived in two very different parts of the country (the NE and SE, specifically), has noticed that the offensiveness of the word "faggot" and all its derivatives varies from place to place. In the town she grew up in, the term is extremely offensive, on par with the worst of the racial slurs. Even typing the word just now made this troper extremely uncomfortable. In the areas around her college town, especially the more rural areas, the term means more or less "really uncool". I can't say how acceptable the term is in California, but I can't imagine it's looked on fondly.

[[WMG: Where the hell did Kurt get that sign?]]
* His second solo in "Laryngitis" is performed against a huge lit sign of his name and this sequence takes place fully within real time. His amazing performance plus making up with his dad afterwards are at least three different Crowning Moments, but I can't get over that sign! Where has he been keeping that??
** The sign was all in Kurt's head and fades out as soon as he's jolted back to reality and is no where to be seen afterward (the lights behind him and his dad are just normal light trees.) He was actually performing in a dark auditorium. The song is traditionally formed with a giant "Rose" in lights that fades out at the end, and is always supposed to be symbolic, not real. I'm sure Burt would have mentioned it if it was actually there.

!!"I have exactly the same vocal range as the famous 16th-century castrato Orlando di Lasso."
How does Kurt know this if standardized musical pitch scales have only been around since the 1700s, and even then there wasn't an actual standard until the early 19th century, and audio recording devices have only been around in the last couple of hundred years (even more recently when it comes to any medium with decent staying ''and'' playback quality)? If he was just bragging, you would think someone who cares enough to actually research individual castrati would know better than to use such a ridiculous boast. Was it a joke that just didn't land?
** To top it off, Orlando di Lasso wasn't even a castrato.
*** Wasn't even a... He was talking about ''[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_di_Lasso that]]'' Orlando de Lassus!? [[CriticalResearchFailure Wow]].
** I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the DidNotDoTheResearch was on purpose. After all, the Finn getting Quinn pregnant one was.
** I thought it was hilarious because of all those things. Fact: male singers back then were often castrati. Fact: Orlando de Lassus was (and is) a famous musician. I took it as Kurt trying to make himself sound smart and failing. YourMileageMayVary.

!!Kurt's WoundedGazelleGambit in Episode 20.
* I think it should be noted that Season 2 is going a long way to resolving some of these issues. In "Duets" Burt specifically takes Kurt to task about how Kurt wasn't honest with him and more-or-less sides with Finn on the issue. It goes a long way toward Kurt realizing that his similar behavior to cute new boy Sam is inappropriate. Kurt is still sympathetic, though, since the episode also highlights how lonely Kurt is in school.
If I were Kurt's dad, as soon as I got done chastising Finn for calling him a fag, I would have turned to Kurt and said:
-->"And ''you'' mister, what the hell is up with this room?! If Finn is gonna live here, he has as much say in how it looks as you. And where do you get off violating his privacy just for a cheap thrill? If me and his mother get married, you two are gonna be stepbrothers, and [[NotBloodSiblings that's just nasty.]] Didn't we [[AesopAmnesia just get done]] talking about how you have to learn to respect others' differences too? '''Finn is straight. Let it go.''' You can find plenty of nice gay boys on Myspace. And one more thing, did I just hear you say you '''skipped school?!''' No Marc Jacobs summer collection for you!"
I mean hell, I'm gay myself and I think Kurt is stepping out of bounds with no reprimand.
* Kurt's dad is kind of oblivious, and he seems not to have heard anything prior to "this faggy blanket" (and ''possibly'' the bit about the lamp). Even if he did get the whole point of Kurt's XanatosGambit (and didn't just think that Finn was being a homophobe), not calling him on that and ''definitely'' the reason he didn't call Kurt on setting up the harem decor without Finn's input was reverse discrimination with at least a hint of nepotism.
** Ah, the good old "''My'' kid can do no wrong!" dilemma that blended families know all too well.
* While Kurt certainly has crossed the creepy stalker line before, he was making an effort to tone it down in this episode. I don't think he was trying to turn the room into a harem, he was just truly clueless as to what Finn would like, and he was trying to be more respectful with the privacy partition. Now he's still not innocent, but I think Kurt knows that. Chris Colfer was definitely playing him with some guilt in that scene. Plus, Burt's reaction right or wrong was very much what a real dad would do, especially not knowing the entire situation.
** The reoccurring problem though is just like the previous episode with him throwing a hissing fit over his dad bonding with Finn, Kurt has still yet to actually acknowledge his own faults in all of this. In no way was Finn right in any of this, but just like before, Kurt's manipulations are given another free past.
** Kurt may have had the right intentions but there's not way in heck that Kurt wouldn't know what Finn would like. Kurt's been playing stalker for some time now, he's been friends for Finn for a while, and it's Kurt's seen the sorts of interactions Finn has with other people (notably, Kurt's own dad). Kurt might not know Finn's favorite color or anything like that but there's no reason why Kurt would ever think Finn would go for what what Kurt did. To be fair, yes, a shared room is a big change so things like the privacy thing are a sign of respect. But Kurt could have also decorated his side of the room and let Finn decorate his own side.
*** Finn never showed any interest in the decor, or how the room looked, until after Kurt redecorated.
*** Um, maybe because he didn't mind it as it was?
* Presumably, we'll have to wait and see how the story develops. It's likely that after Finn defended him at the end of the episode, Kurt will come clean to his father about everything and finally get his WhatTheHellHero.
** Knowing this show, that'll all happen off-screen and they'll be living together as one big happy family in the next episode without ever explaining how things got that way.
** Kurt gets WhatTheHellHero ''constantly'' . We never see his reaction afterwards because the focus is always in another character.
*** No he doesn't. The only time I can remember was in 'Larynigitis', where Burt calls him out on his self-pity.
* I think the whole thing is the parents fault. I wrote my beef on the What The Hell Hero? part of the Glee page.
** Agreed. All the trouble would have been avoided if they had asked Finn's opinion, or i don't know... if ''they had let him have his own room''.
* Kurt's dad's reaction was pretty extreme. Even ignoring that Finn didn't call Kurt a fag, deciding that he and his mother couldn't live there because of one instance of homophobic language is kind of extreme. He should have, at the very least, called in Finn's mom to have a talk with her son about his behaviour.
** He was acting on impulse. They probably talked after that.
** Also, Burt only threw Finn out, not his mom. And it was unclear whether Burt was simply throwing Finn out of the house for the evening or permanently.
*** I thought he said, or at least strongly implied, that she and Finn were an all-or-nothing deal (he ''is'' [[DawsonCasting sixteen]]), and his exact words were something about Homophobe-Finn not staying under his roof.
* The problem is Kurt seemed remorseful at how he had let things come apart like that after Burt's outburst. Then, the next time we see him, he apparently has decided to just go ahead and blame the whole thing on Finn. It'll be interesting to see if Burt actually did kick him out of the house. If he did, and Kurt doesn't try to stop it, it effectively makes Kurt look like he's invoking IfICantHaveYou (and that's not even mentioning [[ParentalAbandonment what it says about]] [[JerkAss Finn's mom]]).
** It felt more like a "time out" honestly.
* ''le sigh'' Kurt is ''16 years old'' boy. He's not a MagnificentBastard, he doesn't have mind controlling powers over adults, the worse he could have done is nudge his father into convincing Finn's mom to move in together, but that's as far as his influence goes, if neither of them had wanted to, it would have been the end of it. Yes, he's making mistakes, but all we saw on screen is that Finn is paranoid(justifiable) because he ''knows'' Kurt has a crush on him, Did we saw Kurt trying to watch Finn in the shower? No. Changing clothes? Nope. Spying him in any way? Nope. The only thing shown was that he ''tried'' to respect Finn's privacy, and tried to redecorate the room to something he ''thought'' Finn would like, GoneHorriblyWrong, as he has barely a understanding on how a "straight" guy's mind works, as shown in the previous episode. And he ''always'' gets called out on his behavior, but the thing is, when it happens, the ''other'' characters gets more focus, so we don't really know how he reacts after being called out. I know he's not a saint, but NONE of the characters are, and frankly others have done much worse things, and got free passes both in the show and the fandom. Puck, for example, is way more manipulative, violent and all around jerkass than him, but he gets DracoInLeatherPants treatment.
** The room-designing thing wasn't coming purely from the goodness of his heart, even ignoring the harem decor. The money Burt gave Finn was given specifically so that Finn would feel more comfortable with the move and could personalize some of a space that Kurt had already personalized for himself. Kurt didn't ask to take the money, didn't ask to decorate, and didn't ask what Finn wanted- there would be issues there even if he was straight.
*** The "harem decor" was ''manlier'' than the stuff Kurt had before, in all honestly. And even Burt said it looked good. Kurt is not entirely blameless, but watch the episode again, and Finn doesn't show ''any'' interest in redecorating until after Kurt redecorated. Did he complain when Kurt took the money? Did he said he wanted the room to be decorated in a certain way?
**** Your mileage may vary as to whether it was manlier or not. If Kurt had gotten rid of a couple of things, it would have been downright {{Zeerust}}, and we all know how [[SpaceClothes incredibly]] [[HaveAGayOldTime manly]] those old pulp sci-fi comics were. The harem/opium den decor was, how might it be put... "frou-frou"? It was lavish in a way stereotypically reserved for the idle gay rich, guys with seven wives, and no one in between. The important part, though, is that Finn got absolutely no input on it, and it turned out looking, in his opinion... see above, and [[RantInducingSlight the episode itself]] for that matter. [[ArsonMurderAndAdmiration Although you have to give Kurt credit]], [[ArsonMurderAndLifesaving he wasn't lying when he said it'd make Finn's skin tone look a lot better]].
**** Note that Finn had no opportunity to say anything - he was ambushed with the "We're moving in!", "You're sharing a room!", and "Here's money!" (which, if taken the wrong way, could be seen as Burt trying to buy off Finn), and then before he could do anything with the money or say anything Kurt jumps in and takes the money away from him then states what 'they'll' do. Finn (again, not that he isn't innocent in the matter), it's been established, has problems speaking up and standing for himself unless other people press him. As well, this is a someone who's lived in his own room and had his own privacy as well as a certain empty house normalcy his whole life... and now his environment is completely changing in a way he simply can't imagine. Again, yes, he could have done things better but so could have everyone else in at least getting his input in the decision making process. Basically, he's feeling helpless and doesn't know how to respond because no one will let him.
** Simply because he's the focus of the calling in this instance doesn't excuse either one though. Both Finn and Kurt are both justified and both at fault, not the least of which is because of poor communication. It's irrelevant who is more or less at fault and trying to justify Kurt as somewhat more innocent because others have done worse is silly. The JBM is not that Kurt isn't justified or not justified; it's that people seem to be ignoring that Finn has some justification to be a little angry and we've seen Kurt do alot from beyond this one episode.
*** Hum.... no. Look at this page, the characters, WMG and the main one. Kurt is getting * all* the blame, and everyone is justifying Kurt. I agree, the three parties(Kurt, Finn and Burt) handled the situation ''horribly''(It's even a bit of Fridge logic in that, they said the house is "twice as big" as Finn's, and yet they seem to have only ''two'' bedrooms... and one of them is the basement...). Other people doing worse stuff doesn't justify Kurt, or minimizes his actions, but it's jarring when ''he's the only one been demonized by the fandom''. Seriously, he has even been called a "sexual predator"
**** I really don't see how his scheme to get into Finn's bedroom could be described as anything other than stalking. If this story was done with Puck and Tina in place of Kurt and Finn, nobody would be on Puck's side.
*** The difference being between Kurt and Finn in this case is that Finn was actually called out and faced the consequences for his actions. There's no reason to complain for Finn for getting away with his actions because, wait for it, he ''didn't.'' By the end of the episode he acknowledge his own prejudice and actually took steps to move past them. Nobody is trying to give Finn a free past, it's more annoyance over Kurt ''not'' acknowledging what he did wrong.
**** Basically, in regards to this subplot... Finn has been taken to task by his mom for being too clingy to the memory of his dad, Finn's mom has been taken to task by Finn for disregarding the memory of her husband, Burt has been taken to task by Kurt for his mother. Burt gave up 'guy time' with Finn because of Kurt. Finn's been chewed out by Burt. And so on. The only thing done to Kurt? Finn yells at him for having desperately ulterior motives and Finn is treated as the bad guy. All of that is the annoyance; yes, everyone is at fault but 3 out of 4 have been called out on it and given up things to make things work. Kurt? Kurt hasn't given up anything. And it's not that we're trying to say Kurt is a villain, everyone else hero/victim. It's that everyone -is- a villain and has done something wrong and it's wrong to say that someone hasn't. And it's also not that everyone isn't justified either; everyone has some justification for why they did, good and bad - Burt was protecting his son but also jumped to conclusions, Finn was bothered by his world getting turned upside down but didn't have any constructive way of handling it, Kurt was trying to mend fences but his past actions marred his efforts, Finn's mom was trying to make herself and Finn happy/have a full family but didn't talk to Finn about it.
***** Kurt ''does'' get called on his behavior when he tries his straight boy routine to try and impress his dad, but since he wasn't hurting anyone other than himself it comes across as more supportive the disapproving. Burt again called Kurt on his selfish behavior when he first started dating Finn's mom, but rather than Kurt facing the consequences of his action he chose to ignore his dad instead. People know what he's up to and tell him so, but so far he has yet to face any serious consequences for his selfishness.
***** Actually, when he was acting straight, he basically manipulated and used Brittany, even if she was only in it for sex. More aptly, she was likely made into a laughing stock because she was the only person who couldn't see exactly what Kurt was doing. The way he coldly told her to "go away", when he was talking to his dad really pissed me off, particularly because it was clearly supposed to be funny.

!!Kurt the Designated Victim
* So they're playing Finn as a homophobe for finally snapping after Kurt makes advances on him constantly after being told straighforwardly to stop it, then taking advantage of any situation to try to "convert" Finn, to the extent that he's manipluated their parents into moving in together and has Finn and himself sharing a bedroom - then to add insult to injury redecorates that room in a way that, sexuality stereotypes aside, Finn doesn't want to live in. Anyone who doesn't think this behaviour is at the very least ''fucking creepy'', just imagine it's a girl and her StalkerWithACrush and see how it looks... not to mention from the flipside it plays up the kind of DepravedHomosexual stereotype that causes the "backs-to-the-wall" mentality Finn's allegedly guilty of. Plus, those cushions ''were'' pretty f... never mind.
** OK, I think the best way to put it is this: you can call a boy who is gay out on his shit without acting like his shit is due to him being gay by using gay slurs. Finn getting angry is justifiable. Finn's reaction to being angry being to use his straight privilege to act like the ''real'' problem is Kurt being 'faggy' is not. He could have been the shittiest person in existence: still not OK to connect that to his homosexuality. He was played as a homophobe for nothing more or less than saying something homophobic. A gay guy being a dick to you doesn't give you the right to attack them for being gay, jeez.
** Kurt was ''never'' been told to stop the advances prior to this episode. He said he didn't want to move in with Kurt, but he never said "Stop it, you're making me uncomfortable." Sure, it's clear Finn was ''thinking'' that, but part of the problem is that he was being too wishy washy to actually tell Kurt to back off. Looking uncomfortable is not rebuffing. If Finn were a girl, she'd be accused of leading Kurt on for not giving him a straight no (plus there'd be all these fangirls saying [[StalkingIsLove "He only does it 'cause he loooves you!"]]) If Kurt were a girl, people would say: "Ha! Look at those silly females and their psychotic crushes. Good thing they're entirely harmless." And if they were both girls, well, people would just think it was hot. But this situation gets the reaction: "The elusive Homosexual preys on helpless teenage boy! RUN FINN RUN!" Anyways, the storyline was presented so that you're ''supposed'' to sympathize with Finn and think Kurt was out of line. Finn had the higher ground up to the point where he used hateful language. Anger is no excuse; not saying it in anger is the ''real'' test. The problem isn't that Kurt is gay, it's that Kurt was acting creepy; but Finn and his apologists are equating being gay with being a predator.
** While I agree that Kurt is * Way* out of line, i would also like to point out, for the nth time, HE HAS NO PSYCHIC POWERS. He might have "manipulated" his dad and Finn's mom into the first date, but there is no way in hell they would have started a relationship (let alone move in together) if they had not wanted to. The "sharing a bedroom" is just as much the parents' fault as Kurt's fault (Even if he hadn't a crush, his father knows he's gay, and it's almost as bad as if they were a boy and a girl). There was a lot of pressure on Finn, but I REALLY hope this help him and he * stops* being such a damn doormat, look at the previous episodes, and he only lets "anger" overcome him when he's at his limit, other times, he just acts uncomfortable, which is not the same as saying "No". They're both wrong, and they're both guilty.
*** If Finn were a girl, we'd be calling Kurt a stalker.
**** Two words: [[{{Twilight}} Edward]] [[StalkingIsLove Cullen]]. If Finn were "Finnessa" you'd have a bunch of people saying "Omg, bitch! Can't you see he just does it because he loves you?"
***** And people with brains would be mocking those people for believing that his stalking was romantic.
****** Yeah, [[SarcasmMode because the only way to show other people they're wrong, is being childish and immature]]. Mocking has done nothing to the fandoms that consist of this.
******* Alright, how about this: Edward Cullen's behaviour has been repeatedly labelled as 'abusive' and 'sexist' by many experts. Just because there are people with... the inclination to ignore the most problematic parts of Twilight it doesn't mean the problem is not there. Similarly, Kurt acted in a extremely clingy manner that bordered on being outright stalkerish.
******** No one is refutting either of those points. I(at least) was pointed out the double standar and how the fandom would react different(Sill broken base, but for different reasons) if the stalkering happened between a boy and a girl, and if the stalked one returned the feelings.
**** I (random other troper who was involved in a different part of the discussion) am calling Kurt a stalker, I'm just not calling him a villain. On the other hand, if Finn were "Finnessa", aside from likely having addes or responded to the "What is up with Finnessa's name?" JBM, ''I would be calling Kurt a stalker'' (and probably comparing Kurt to Puck). Just because you've got a few people who are part of a MisaimedFandom (or a lot of people who are fans of a Misaimed Canon) doesn't mean [[DoubleStandard that]]'s what the majority think.
***** That's why it should be "Fiona"... but nevertheles, the DoubleStandard is, sadly, more standar than it should be, and highly depends on the gender of the people involved ''and'' how the relationship works. If Kurt/Fiona and Courtney/Finn will get a positive review if they end up as a couple, regardless of how they came to be. If they don't, it will be more neutral (Some people will call Kurt/Courtney a stalker, some will say Finn/Fiona is a dumb brick for not realizing how much the other loved her/him). Kurt/Finn is doomed from the start. He doesn't reciprocate, Kurt's a stalker. He reciprocates, Kurt "converted" Finn to "gay-sm".
** Kurt ''knows'' Finn is straight. He ''knows'' he has no chance with Finn. He said so himself in the (much) earlier episode where he convinces Rachel to get a ridiculous makeover to win him over, and then tearfully admits that neither of them have any chance with Finn. The idea that Finn's behavior could in any way be read as "leading Kurt on" is ridiculous.
*** So far, the only thing that Finn had told him with respect of his crush on him was that he was ''flattered'' And that he already had a date for the prom, which Kurt could have interpreted as "otherwise i would go with you". He didn't rejected him, and has been consistently portrayed as acting rather nice to Kurt(something even more than how he treats Rachel or the other girls), which isn't bad on itself, but considering how the others tended to treat Kurt... he ''might'' have interpreted "being nice" as "leading on". This incident was, in fact the first time Finn expressed he was uncomfortable with him. It's also worth nothing that the previous stances of "stalkery" of the show had been played for laughs(Rachel and the Pepper girl on Will, Jacob with Rachel), or don't get the change to become too creepy, because they win, or get sidetracked (Rachel with Finn, Puck with Rachel and Mercedes), basically, all "straight" ones.
* The trouble with this whole situation is that the writers wanted to get across the message that using that word, no matter what the context, is just as horrible and as damaging as any other slur. The scene did its job in this respect but it also sucked in some of all three parties' brain power as well - not a lot, but just enough to make it all blow up in their faces.
* Putting in my 2 cents here. I think that the entire situation is kind of caused by a vicious cycle. Kurt at the beginning of the episode is definitely edging into StalkerWithACrush territory, no question about that. The problem is that when Finn talks to him, and later lashes out, it seems to Kurt like he's criticizing Kurt's ''personality'' as opposed to Kurt's ''behavior''. Kurt then becomes very confused, but doesn't end up changing his behavior because Finn doesn't make it clear that he's uncomfortable with Kurt StalkerWithACrush tendencies, but is fine with Kurt's flamboyant personality. This causes a vicious cycle until Finn at the end of the episode makes his point clearly.
* Kurt and his victimhood with regard to his sexuality are dominating the entire show, with episode after episode focusing on it. Mercedes, Artie and Tina have yet to get long-lasting main storylines of their own, and their development is suffering for the sake of Kurt, I feel.
** The really annoying thing is that putting such a big spotlight on Kurt just makes him less sympathetic, it`s like with watching horror movies, you see something enough you get desensitized to it... or resentful of it, another few episodes and I`ll be dissing the gays... and I came out 9 years ago (at 13).

[[/folder]]
[[folder: Quinn]]
!!QUINN.
She has both Puck and Finn after her. She appears to be good friends with everyone in the Glee club. Although she cheated on her boyfriend and got pregnant, she milks the sympathy her friends give her for all its worth, not once thinking to TELL Finn, instead taking Puck out for a "test drive" to see if he would make a better father...?

I may be the only one, but I literally see nothing nice about her characterization or the way she behaves in accordance to others. Out of everyone it seems she has had the least character development- i can see they've "put her through alot" but through all of it she has just appeared to be incredibly self-centered, rude and a nasty piece of work. I don't get why people in the show like her, or why people give people like Rachel, Finn, Kurt etc abuse but fail to acknowledge that Quinn is probably the worst character when it comes to manipulation.
* "Least character development" is definitely an overstatement. [[{{TwoWords}} One word:]] ''Mercedes''.
* The worst part is that if she had simply told Finn the truth in the beginning (that she cheated on him with Puck while they were both drunk) He is such a nice guy he probably would have forgiven both of them and supported her anyway. Now however the only option seems to be either keep him in the dark forever or have him sever all ties with both Quinn and Puck once he finds out the truth. Finn has been shown to be extremely uncomfortatble with lying, he hated lying about Quinn not being pregnant, he hated lying to his mother, lying to their friends, he even hated lying to the Fabray's who he barely even knew. Since day one he has been completely miserable in the deception, only finding any sort of relief once the truth was out in the open and he no longer had to decieve anyone. They seem to be setting him up for a case of BewareTheNiceOnes because nothing good can come from his finding out just how much he's been played for a sucker.
* Well said, what also bothers me, is like... the Glee Club is supporting they so much that when the truth is revealed I feel it is going to split the almost-nakama. Also, I actually can imagine a reason (not a very justified one of course), for Quinn lie to Finn, well. She is VERY afraid that people would find out and while Finn might be a nice guy, Quinn was probably afraid that he wouldn't be able to keep it quiet, specially after her baby bump showed up, people would make question, and I doubt that even Finn would agree tosay that the baby is his.
* What I don't understand is that Quinn is so much more well-liked than Terri when, let's face it, what they're doing is pretty similar. True, she's going through a lot with the pregnancy and she's not a DumbBlonde, but why is her character so sympathetic? Rachel gets a lot of hate for being annoying, but she's not lying to everyone while feeling no remorse for her actions.
** Quinn is a terrified teenager who has everything to lose and nothing to gain by telling the truth. Terri, on the other hand, is a grown woman deceiving her husband for no good reason.
** This doesn't change the fact that Quinn betrayed Finn, and shows no real signs of guilt; only self-pity. If she weren't pregnant, she'd still be bullying the other kids around, too. Plus, she's messing both Finn and Puck around by giving them both false hopes of happy fatherhood. Terri, in my opinion, is far more sympathetic. Although she's annoying, Terri isn't really a horrible person, just self-centred. She's faking a pregnancy because she doesn't want to lose her husband, and it seems as though she really wants to be a mother. Her attitude towards Quinn- coldly refusing to pay for her pregancy expenses- is probably partly routed in a deep jealousy that a high school girl is pregnant with an unwanted baby.
*** My problem with Terri is that she is self-centered to a truly ridiculous degree (in the first or second episode she complains about having to work three days a week for four hours a day, and then have to come home and cook dinner because Will is working late). She shows very little sympathy at all for Will's problems, and the few times she does almost come off as more of her feeling sorry for herself. Quinn has her own troubles, but her PetTheDog moments actually seem genuine to me, while Terri's never seem to be benefiting anyone (including the man she says she loves) but herself.
** A part of it is also Dianna Agron's acting, which in my personal opinion is some of the best on the show. I can't blame anybody in the slightest for disliking her though, she has some very clear faults as shown above.
* Finn found out. He didn't take it well. Expect this to be a big plot point in the rest of season one.
** I thought the episodes in April is the continuation of season one? But also, ouch, poor Finn.
* In the pre-hiatus finale, when Rachel finally suspects that Puck is the father, she fools Quinn into spelling it out for her by mentioning the issue of genetic diseases potentially being passed down by a Jewish father- Quinn's motivation for getting Puck tested is that she's worried Terri won't still take the baby. Has the rest of the Glee club not yet worked out that Schue knows Terri faked her pregnancy? Finn, for one, clearly knows. Why would Quinn still expect Terri to take the child?
** Because Quinn can give up the baby for adoption at an orphanage? And it'll be much harder for a baby with a genetic disease to get adopted by parents?
*** Would make sense except she specifically names Terri.
**** Yeah well Will didn't leave Terri YET.
**** Yes he did.
**** Well, I thought he left her before Emma's wedding, right? Well I didn't see "Mattress" yet (although I saw Sectionals) so I'm not sure.
* What ThisTroper doesn't understand is that no one gets on Quinn's case for sleeping with Puck. Everyone seems to take the anti-Puck side immediately without considering, like another troper mentioned, "it takes two to cheat". While WE know that Puck "got [her] drunk on wine coolers", and that makes it sorta-kinda justifiable, none of the other Glee club members know this! All they know is that Puck is the father, but and no one seems to think less of Quinn; Mercedes even defends Quinn against Puck.
** Just because we never see Quinn telling people that she was drunk at the time that doesn't mean she didn't. The writers don't have the time to show every single conversation that the characters have with one another.
** Part of it may be that Puck has a reputation as a bad boy, a womanizer, and what have you as well as being fairly lackadaisical about commitments. Both may have been the bad guy but Puck was just the bigger bad guy at the moment.
* Ever since Quinn's taken up her role as "the pregnant girl," she can do no wrong. In the most recent episodes, she's been the maternal adviser, smiling beatifically while helping everyone else with their problem of the week. Sure, they wrote her into the GList plot, but why has she had such a whiplash of an attitude change? Even when she was telling off Sue, she was still at least snarky.
[[/folder]]

!!Do the Glee Club Kids ever talk to each other outside the club?
I just found Kurt comment about Quinn talking to him "for the first time" too odd, but somehow, too true, can we really say that they are a Nakama if no one communicates?
* Well, the original six certainly seem to. Quinn was a late addition that didn't bother to make friends with the glee club kids until AFTER she was kicked out of the Cheerios.
* They have been seen hanging out together outside of the club, but the popular group still doesn't seem to hang out with the unpopular group outside the club. (Meaning Tina, Artie, Kurt, Mercedes and sometimes Rachel will hang out together, and Quinn, Santana, Mike, Matt, and Puck usually keep to their own group. Finn and Brittany are probably the only ones who are seen in both groups.) And I wouldn't expect Kurt and Quinn to be too chummy anyway, since he's considered a loser and, judging from the glare he gave her in "Ballad", he doesn't like her too much.
* This annoys me because the show is supposed to be about a group of misfits yet with the exception of Rachel and sometimes Kurt, almost every episode focuses on the popular kids (who actually outnumber the misfits 7-6 if you still count Quinn as popular)
** See below. Most of the popular kids in the glee club are now unpopular. At least Quinn, Finn, and Puck all are, and their friends' popularity may have fallen as well.
* Well, perhaps not originally but as of 'Sectionals', they seem to. Everyone but the football players, Quinn, and Rachel end up on a group call and talk rather casually among themselves. Brittany not withstanding but she's always pretty naively candid. :)

!!The Women
Pretty much every guy on this show is a nice, happy-go-lucky type of guy (except maybe Sandy, but even Puck is sort of sympathetic here!) but all the women? Well we have our main villains (Sue, Terri, Kendra), Tina, who has been lying about a disability to get special treatment for years, and girls who could be likable but just come off as spoiled brats (Rachel, Quinn, Mercedes, Emma). And then there's Brittany and Santana who one episode are laughing and dancing with the glee kids, the next are treating all of them (their friend Quinn included) like they're not fit to lick their shoes.
* "Pretty much every guy on this show is a nice, happy-go-lucky type of guy"? Really? Finn is an incredibly nice guy for the most part, but he has still done some pretty selfish things, like abandoning Rachel in "Mattress." Not to mention cheating on his girlfriend twice with Rachel. One of those times he only did it in order to manipulate Rachel into coming back to glee club. But I'm sure his pregnant girlfriend would not have appreciated that very much. Also, he's a complete moron. Will isn't much smarter and he's terribly oblivious. Puck is a womanizing jerk. Kurt set Rachel up to be humiliated just because he found out she had a crush on the same guy as him. Coach Ken tried to sabotage Glee just to get back at Will. Sandy is a drug-dealing, closeted diva. All of the football players who aren't in Glee seem to be homophobic Neanderthals. Even Artie has had a couple of moments where he could have been nicer. Yes, most of these characters have at least some redeeming qualities, but so do most of the female characters you mentioned. I really don't see any gender bias here.
** Let's not start insulting Neanderthals now.
** Plus they had an entire episode (The Power of Madonna) that focused on the fact that the guys were treating the girls like crap.
* All women are freaking crazy. All men are really dumb. (Brittany and Sandy play for the other team.)
** And some have gotten better. Quinn, notably, is pretty much a sweetheart.

!!Stop pretending Glee is still at the bottom of the food chain!
* Seriously, this retroactive use of StatusQuoIsGod is starting to get on my nerves. New Directions has recruited, along with the so-called "misfits", the most popular kids in the school, namely the top Cheerios and the football stars. And yet rather than improve Glee's standing, the popular kids get treated (inconsistently, I might add), as new-found losers. The above entry on "the women" even points out said inconsistency. One episode Brittany and Santana are part of the group, and are "with the losers" during the Slushi episode, the very next episodes they're at the top of the pyramid looking down at the Glee kids they're "not really a part of". Not only doesn't this make sense, not only does it screw with continuity, but it completely contradicts the show's message for the sake of artificially preserving drama. It makes it seem there is something "objectively uncool" about Glee Club that sucks "coolness" away like a black hole and makes the popular kids become unpopular...that's a complete contradiction of the show's intended Aesop. Seriously, they're afraid to get a yearbook picture because it will be defaced? Even though the club includes Puck, Mike, Brittany, Santana, Quinn, etc.? UnfortunateImplications aside from them ''needing'' the popular kids in order to be respected, it's still inconsistent that it doesn't even have an affect.
** Oh yeah, like High School popularity isn't wildly inconsistent in ''real'' life.
*** I never said it wasn't. Just that recruiting all the popular kids should have some measurable effect on the club's "standing", and only hasn't because them gaining any ground would upset the status quo. I mean, the "Push It" performance alone should have changed things, getting a wild standing ovation from the ''entire student body''. And yet they're still treated as the bottom of the pyramid because they do music.
**** This might be an example of TruthInTelevison. At this troper's school, the school One-Act play is treated the same way that Show Choir is treated on the show. Granted, we haven't placed at competition in about 5 years, but still. For some odd reason, the musical is praised, but the one-act (which has a ''much'' lower budget. Seriously, we're forced to do public domain plays because the school won't give us the money to do anything else) is seen as "dorky" and "lame". Almost makes me hate the musical fad, and I'm a theater geek!
*** When the popular kids joined glee club they didn't bring the club up, they brought themselves down. That should be painfully obvious.
**** You're right, it is, which is exactly why I spent time ''mentioning'' it in how inconsistent things are. I know it brought them down, that's why I said it was ridiculous to treat it as a "black hole that sucks coolness away", showing the popular kids as now unpopular, but making them "popular" again whenever the plot calls for it.
*** The popular kids are officially dethroned in "Mash-Up", there are plenty of scenes where the football players in glee are harassed by the other players, and in "Wheels" they couldn't sell any cupcakes at first even though, as Puck mentions, before glee he could have sold plenty of cupcakes "on fear alone". Their unpopular status is actually pretty consistent.
** This troper just has problems with that the Glee Club is at the bottom of the food chain in the first place-- at her HS (which, no, was not a performing arts school), the show kids were ''easily'' at the top of the food chain for being, you know, ''talented'' and stuff. Now, the Glee kids are a lot more ''obnoxious'', but like the above troper said, the club is objectively the uncool thing.
** But the rest of the school doesn't give a damn about the glee club's talent. All they see is the gay kid, the fat girl, the cripple, the weird Asian girl who stutters and that really annoying one. The fact that football players and cheerleaders not only JOIN the club with all those freaks is just weird itself, there MUST be something wrong with them too so now they're free targets.
** What makes it worse, according to Will "Glee Club used to rule this place", that was around 1993, and the yearbook photos show that in 1999 (I think) the Glee Club was already down (if not in the bottom) of the food chain, how they could fall that hard in just a few years?
*** Six years is a lifetime in high school terms. Everyone Will went to school with would have graduated by 1999, unless they got held back multiple times.
** Also, you'd think having Will as the adviser to the club would do quite a bit for their image. There is no way he isn't one of the most popular teachers in that school, especially with the girls.
*** Just because the teacher in charge of the club is cute and cool that doesn't mean the kids aren't still dorks to be picked on.
**** Exactly. This troper is part of the Comic Book Club, which is run by one of the most popular teachers, but because the club itself is considered geeky it's hard to generate intrest. Same logic explains what the show choir isn't more popular.
* Additionally, after singing "Push It" the school cheered the Glee club, that may not make them popular, but still it should have meant an improvement.
* This troper thinks it's a case of YouSuck.
* The answer why the Glee Club is at the bottom is simple. That's how Sue C's it. Would you dare say anything otherwise?
* Really, all we hear about/see is Football Players/Cheerios (and the coaches associated with each) making fun of Glee, and the former Football players and Cheerios bemoaning that they are no longer friends with those people. For all we know, the rest of the school thinks Glee is fine, but the Football players and Cheerios make the Gleeks lives miserable enough that it doesn't matter.
* I would like to add, how come the crowds of students go wild when New Directions perform? For example, Toxic. Yet they're still apparently the bottom of the food chain?
!!They live in Ohio, right?
* Where's the snow? Assuming that the show is in December they should be getting snow, or at least cold weather by now. And even if its not, the show is at least into October/November and they wouldn't be wearing shorts/short skirts anymore.
** It's filmed in California, by Californians who don't think about that kind of thing. Seriously, though, the Glee time line is progressing VERY slowly compared to the real world. Sectionals hasn't happened yet, which it definitely would have by December (which is halfway through the school year). I'm starting to wonder if they'll get to Nationals this season.
*** This troper lives 12 miles from Ohio and an hour from Lima. After the second week in November, short sleeves and short pants are only for the hardy and the foolish.
*** How do you figure? I wasn't in choir when I was in high school, but virtually all the vocal music competitions our school's show choir performed in were in the spring and those were all small competitions on the scale of sectionals. A national high school choir competition might very well take place in the summer, although I wouldn't be surprised if Season 1 only goes through regionals.
** Double up on the California bit - if the writers are native, snow might be this mythical thing they hear about from people in Boston and see in movies. It's entirely possible for some people to never even have seen snow. Even this native New Englander, after living in Phoenix for a few years, ends up getting caught off guard whenever flying home into a snow storm. Besides, fake snow is pretty fake-y looking.
*** It Just Bugs this (Northern) California Troper that the "lol no snow in CA" keeps getting brought up. Sure there's snow: in the mountains! Just about every college student here takes the weekend in January to go skiing/snowboarding.
*** Yes, but here's a difference between seeing the manufactured 3 inches of well-taken care of snow at a ski slope and 3 inches falling from the sky and accumulating on the ground. We're not saying that lulz Cali's are warm, we're saying that they (generally) don't have the experience to handle a natural snow fall or visualized what it might be like. Or in general, just act differently due to habit and acclimation. What might be unbearably cold for a warm weather state (say... 60 degrees) is probably still shorts and t-shirt weather for a cold weather state. And vice versa (120 degrees for a warm weather state is different for those from a cold weather state).
** ThisTroper happens to live in Ohio about an hour and a half away from their town, Lima. It hasn't snowed here yet and it usually doesn't until late December, sometimes after Christmas. Also many people are still wearing skirts and the like....including ThisTroper.
** There's also the fact that it is very, very hard and expensive to shoot in cold weather, let alone snow. The Canadian show "Trailer Park Boys" was shot in Nova Scotia and fans constantly complained that there was no snow in November, but it just wasn't in the budget to shoot in the winter. And then when they did shoot in winter for a Christmas episode, there was no snow and they had to bring in fake stuff! "Corner Gas" frequently had the same issues. Hence, it's rare to see anything but establishing shots of winter wonderlands in television shows.
** We in Ohio have a saying about the weather; "Don't like it? Just wait a few minutes" as the weather is odd, to say the least (any one else remember that 60F day in Decemeber maybe ten years ago?)
* In addition to the weather aspect, though [[InformedAttribute everyone says]] it's an impoverished backwater that they want to get out of, everyone seems to lead an upper-middle-class lifestyle; they've got the money for top-tier arts programs and good school facilities (Figgins complains but we never actually see any budget cuts except for the Cheerios, and that doesn't have any effect except to make Sue complain), many of the kids seem to have a lot of disposable income, and even the poor families don't seem to go without much.
** "Impoverished backwater" is stretching it a bit. The gloominess of life in Lima seems to revolve more around the fact that people never really escape it or become anything special, not the fact that the people there are particularly poor. The director of the Jane Addams glee club characterizes the New Directions kids as "privileged" so they're probably not intended to be impoverished. As for the money for school programs - first of all, the glee club has had a lot of trouble getting the funding it needs, and secondly, there are a lot of abysmal rural/suburban Midwest schools that attempt to make up for a lack of academic prowess with top-notch extracurricular activities, particularly sports. The fact that Will can't speak Spanish very well and all but three of the Cheerios are failing suggests that this may be the case with [=McKinley=].
** Yeah, I always figured Lima was like my hometown. It was actually a pretty nice suburb, but that didn't stop me from complaining all of the time about how boring it was and escaping to a college on the other side of the country the first chance I got.
** If nothing else, it's Hollywood-ification. You have Rich, Middle-Class/Poor, and Slum. There's not a lot of room to show places that don't neatly fit into that.
*** Actually Lima is a very poor city w/ an unemployment rate that hasn't left the double digits for quite some time. It's also lost a significant portion of its population and businesses since the 1950's causing the tax base to erode. The show makes it appear to be much nicer than it is.
** It might not actually be a bad place, but coming from [[{{Tropers/Durandal}} a native Clevelander]], it's complete TruthInTelevision that people living in even the nicer parts of Ohio tend to define success as getting the hell out. It says something that the Great Lakes states refuse to export water to states with shortages, telling people to just move back here if they want it.
* Census data has Lima at about 70% white, 25% black, 2% Latino/a, and 0.5% Asian. [=McKinley=] seems to have more Latinos/as and Asians than black people, a demographic much more reminiscent of [[CaliforniaDoubling California.]]
** Without a lot more information, that data doesn't actually mean anything or correlate to anything relevant. Statistics are funny that way.
*** This troper lives a hour away from Lima and has been there many times. I would hazard a guess that the Black population is 5-10% higher than the census, the Latino poulation would be about 5% higher and the Asian population is negligible.
** Because schools ''never'' have differing demographics to the population at large...
** There would logically be ''some'' correlation, however. It's easy to believe Tina and Mike might be among a handful of Asian students, but there should be more black kids at the school than we've seen.
* The lack of pay to play being mentioned- a lot of Ohio schools have trouble getting funding because they use Levy taxes for it (which, by the way, is Unconstitutional, has been declared so twice by the Ohi supream court, but nothing's been done about it), and so students have to pay money that helps fund their extracuriclular At my school it was $100 per sport, and $100 for an entire year for theater, and that's light compared to some.
!!Brittany's last name?
* Every single character shown, even background characters like Howard Bamboo, have gotten a last name. Characters who show up for only one episode get a last name! Why is Brittany the only girl on the whole show with out one?
** Maybe she forgot it. The omission is very pointedly deliberate, considering that even the yearbook photo lists her name as "Brittany", no last name.
*** She is actually Sue's daughter with a EpilepticTree
**** But according to Sue she has neither a uterus nor an ovulation cycle. Unless... maybe Sue went to that special school in Thailand!
** If she were Sue's daughter, it'd stretch good writing to have no one realize that. Sue's sisters daughter, on the other hand...
*** [[{{Fridge Brilliance}} OH. MY.]] [[{{Made of Win}} GOD.]]
* I have a feeling that this won't be the last one of the things in this page that will solved by the end of the show.
* As of the episode "Britney/Brittany," Brittany's last name is Pierce. Her middle name is Susan though, so...


!!Racefail
* Only white folks get to have their own plots.
** Because Mercedes' infatuation with Kurt turned her lily white for the duration of an episode, I take it?
*** Mercedes' crush was merely fuel for Kurt's coming-out plot.
** And Tina during episode 9 was turned in a Nordic blond?
*** Artie/Tina was all about Artie and his disability.
** Personal addendum to above JBM: Only white folks get to have their own ''story arcs''.
** It's the middle of the first season and those arcs are almost wrapped up, give it time.
*** Yeah, Artie and Tina are supposed to get the spotlight again within the next few episodes, and Mercedes is slated to get a love interest in the second season.
*** Of course Matt gets to have a line in the season one finale. And in season two...gets replaced by another white guy with abs.
[[{{YMMV}} Then again you have to be aware a character named ]] [[{{SarcasmMode}} Matt actually exists.]]
!!Will's Day Job
* Mentioned in the main article, but Will's job as the Spanish teacher irritates me pretty bad. I know we don't see many of the instructors actually doing the jobs since the focus is on the glee club which presumably goes on after school, but the few times we see Will Schuester actually teaching his accent is ''so bad you guys''. JustBugsMe since I'm a Spanish major and spend most of my day working on perfecting my grammar and accent. I realize the actor probably doesn't speak Spanish, but he pretty blatantly sounds like he's reading. Grah.
** Most native Spanish speaker that this troper knows get really irritated with people who are going for their EdM in Spanish ed. That is because most Spanish teachers don't speak the language very well. This is a small town in Ohio. Don't pretend that they can get a good Spanish teacher.
*** Especially since education is actually a much lower priority than Cheerios, football, and Glee.

!!Will's response to the trophy
* He acts surprised, and the kids obviously didn't think he was expecting it, and yet, immediately after his shock, he talks about what the judges thought of them - which he wouldn't have known if he didn't already know they won.
** He obviously didn't saw it before that scene, even knowing the result, It still a great moment to finally see it.
** Given that he talked to Emma, Sue and the Principal between the competition and seeing the trophy, he was probably filled in about the details. He might not know the result if the Glee Club had asked them not to tell Will ("I have two gays Dads and you can bet that if you tell Mr Schu the result of the sectionals then the ACLU will..."). Otherwise, Rule of (Musi)Cool
!!The final dance
* I realize that the kids flipping their heads around was supposed to be a callback to Hairography, but the guys looked even stupider doing it than when they had the wigs on.
** That's kind of the point.


!!Autotune
Does the ridiculous amount of Autotune make anyone else want to chuck their television out the window? It's one thing to use it to correct pitch when it is off enough to bother listeners, but they do it to insane extents. Finn gets so much that I'm wondering if one of the upcoming episodes is going to reveal that he's a robot. This isn't too difficult for most people to hear too. It's noticable to my friends with no musical training whatsoever (check the recordings of Can't Fight This Feeling and No Air for examples of Autotune gone wrong). And please don't take this as a personal dislike for the casting of Finn. Monteith isn't as skilled a singer as any of the rest of the male cast, but he showed some promise in the two instances in the pilot where he can be heard sans-autotune. The pitch-correction actually makes it seem like he's completely tone-deaf and just lowers the level of personality that can express while singing.
* The really annoying bit is that the [[FanNickname Finnbot]] is [[InformedAbility supposed to have ultrasinging powers]], when he's basically made of autotune. Oh, and the fact that after every song, my father says "wow, they're so talented" when he just heard several minutes of Autotuning. ARGH.
* At least one of the more recent [=CDs=] (I haven't heard the others) uses little or no Autotune. They may have used some pitch correction, but it would have been properly done since it was little enough not to be recognizable as such where it was noticeable during the show.
* This is my least favorite part of the show. Not only does it totally eliminate the need for the club to rehearse--ever-- since every song they do they are immediately singing in Autotuned perfection, but it totally devalues the actual talent of many of the performers. Having seen several of them when they were on Broadway, I can attest that they sound far better when their voices are...theirs. I hate the Autotuned sound. I wish they'd drop it--musical episodes of other pre-Autotune shows are wonderful despite usually being full of untrained vocalists, so I can only imagine how awesome this group would be (well, maybe not Finn) in their natural glory.

!!The Cast Recordings
Some of my favorite numbers are missing, including the two mash-ups from "Vitamin D", Quinn's rendition of "Papa Don't Preach", and the two Vocal Adrenaline numbers. However, Volume 2 includes Rachel's cover of "Crush", which only played for a few seconds during "Ballad", and Mercedes singing "Don't Make Me Over", which I don't remember being on the show at all. Who decided on this play list, and what logic were they following?
* Sadly, the logic of business. Each song sold separately on iTunes makes $1.29. The album only makes around 76 cents a song. You'll be more inclined to buy "Crush" and "Don't Make Me Over" as part of an album, but the other songs you mentioned are good enough to buy separately, making more money.
** But I don't own an iPod. If I did, I wouldn't be buying the CD at all!
*** You do realize you can burn songs off iTunes to a CD, right?
*** Um... you can download them from Amazon too
** Plus I ''know'' DigitalPiracyIsEvil and all, but it's an option.


!!Friendship
Not a single character on the show has a platonic friendship without there being some kind of sexual or romantic component. Mercedes was attracted to Kurt, Will's boy band weren't really his friends, and even Brittany and Santana are in a sexual relationship. That's fine for some characters, but it's a bit weird for everyone.
* Mercedes and Tina are really good friends, and I think Matt and Mike (aka Shaft and Other Asian) are buddies as well. The writers just don't focus on any platonic friendships because they don't have as much potential for drama.
* If you watch Sectionals there's quite a lot of nods towards friendship in the background. Matt and Mercedes was one I saw, can't remember the others but they're in there - just not as prominently as romantic relationships
* And in "Wheels" Quinn calls Artie her friend when Puck tries to give her the bake sale money.
* It's a high school drama.
* Tina and Kurt seem to have a friendship going on, and maybe it's wishful thinking but I can almost see some with Brittany and Kurt too?
* Quinn and Mercedes seem to be good friends too now.
* If you watch a lot of the numbers, actually, you notice a lot of friendship moments. In Mercedes' Cheerio's solo, you'll see Santana coming up and holding hands with her, for instance. As one of the above comments said, they're friends and all but drama is what gets people to watch TV. And, one supposes, it can be debated how much of this is character or the actors just getting into the music and their real-life friendship.
* OK, I know this has been said about a thousand times already on this page but: They. Are. In. High. School. When I was in high school most of the people I knew found it physically impossible to have a platonic relationship with someone of the opposite sex (or in the case of gay kids, of the same sex). I know that when I was sixteen and a cute boy said hello to me as we entered school I'd have our children's names picked out by the end of first period. Having stupid crushes is practically a mandatory high school extracurricular activity.
* As for Brittany and Santana, though they're having sex, it's also shown that they are genuine friends and spend as much time together for the sake of each other's company as for the sex.

!!Jonathan Groff as Vocal Adrenaline lead singer for the next few episodes.
This troper is conflicted at the idea that he will be a possible love interest for Rachel: are they turning her into a {{Relationship Sue}} and stealing a good plot from Kurt (who everyone wanted and guessed this would happen to)... or are the writers actually doing something different by ''not'' making him Kurt's love interest, which is what we all ''expected''?
* Kurt will be getting a boyfriend in Season Two, and rumor has it the lucky guy is [[spoiler: on the football team]]. I guess they're trying to make up for [[CampGay Kurt]] and [[TransparentCloset Sandy]] being such stereotypes by making the next gay character [[StraightGay as far from stereotypical as possible.]]
** How do you know that?
*** I went to the TelevisionWithoutPity forums and found the ''Glee'' spoilers thread. It's not that hard to find spoilers for any reasonably popular TV show these days. You can find the ones in question [[http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2010/01/18/exclusive-glee-spoilers-rachel-puck/ here]] and [[http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2010/01/21/ask-ausiello-spoilers-lost-glee-bones/ here]].
** There is one canon homosexual relationship already: Santana and Brittany, both of whom are very much not stereotypically "real lesbians" ("porn lesbians" is debatable). Whether they personally identify as bi, lesbian, questioning, or queer of another color is unclear (and will probably never be addressed), but they are having sex together.
*** We don't actually know whether or not Santana and Brittany are actually dating. Brittany said that she and Santana were dating, but she never specified whether or not they were dating each other. It's entirely possible she just meant that they were both having casual sex with different people and wasn't smart enough to realize what she actually said.
*** Actually the Brittany and Santana thing is referenced during the last episode of the first half of season one. Santana is saying that having sex does not equal a relationship (on the topic of her and Puck's sexting. Que Brittany saying "yea because if sex meant a relationship Santana and I would be dating!", An awkward silence follows.
*** And while Kurt was singing his little love song or whatever in episode 16, Santana and Brittany look at each other sweetly, hold eachother's pinkies and rest their heads against eachother. Combined with them walking around the halls together holding hands all the time, and their three-way date with Finn was more just a date with the two of them while Finn watches... Yeah, they're canon.
** One interpretation is that they're emotionally and sexually involved with each other but only sexually involved with other people. For them, sex is a fun act with no real emotional attachment (see Santana after having sex with Finn). It could also be seen as sort of a play on the stereotypical guy attitude - sex is fun (and you have a smoke or a burger after sex) but meaningless and it's the emotional aspect that's important.


!! The slushie-ing of certain characters
Rule of Drama and all, I can get that is necessary to the story the downfall of some characters and it allows for some Development, but really, becoming part of Glee Club seems to not only make you unpopular, but also unable(Or unwilling) to fight back.
I can understand why Artie, Kurt, Tina, Rachel and Mercedes are too weak to fight back, and would get it worse. But what aout Finn? He barely complained to that other guy, while he has traded blows with Puck for less than that. Puck is the same, he takes no shit for anyone, yet lets himself be slushied. We don't know much about Matt and Other Asian personality, but they can also defend themselves. The Cheerios is a particular case. They might not be able to fight back by themselves, but would you risk slushie-ing a cheerio when Sue Sylvester might catch you?
And don't get me started on the getting defaced thing. They should pay with the same coin, as they 'know' who hates them.
* Because they're embarrassed/ashamed to be in Glee club. They enjoy it and want to stay but at the same time have spent their highschool careers under the impression that "Gleeks" get their picture destroyed and slushied in the hallway. To quote a godawful musical set in a highschool other than Glee "Stick to the Status Quo"
* For me, the whole slushie-ing business is too over the top, and extends way past Rule of Drama and breaks my suspension of disbelief (which is sort of tenuous as it is...). Granted, everything in this show is supposed to be over the top, but I know for a fact in almost any high school in the area I'm from the people doing the slushie-ing would have been suspended long ago.
* This bothers me ; the people in the hallway not only have slushies all the time, IN school, but splash them on people?! They wasted a perfectly good drink, and I for one would hate to give a slushie up to humiliate someone. Where do they get the money for all of it? Are they just all rich and slushie-hating?

!! Finn's actor
Now, I'm not here to complain about Cory Monteith; he's a good singer, when he's not autotuned into a robot. But Kevin [=McHale=], Chris Colfer and Mark Salling are all clearly better than him, so why oh why was Cory cast in the lead male role? Sure, Artie and Kurt don't exactly look like jocks, but there's no reason that, say, Puck and Finn couldn't switch actors. Yet the weakest singer was cast in the most prominent role, resulting in his voice being constantly overpowered by the lead female singer. It just baffles me.
* Because the casting people valued more than just the quality of his singing voice? And because on some level he's supposed to be a weaker singer?
** Since when is he supposed to be a weaker singer? Finn is presented as being the [[InformedAbility most talented male singer in the club]]. That's why he's given the male lead in so many songs.
*** Finn is presented as being ''considered'' the most talented male singer in the club because he reminds Schuester of himself in highschool, and because he represents what those in power within the club think the male lead ''should'' be - physically attractive, ablebodied, white, straight, charismatic. He looks like the guy that Schue wants headlining his glee club and that Rachel wants to be seen standing next to, so they turn a blind eye to the fact that his singing is mediocre.
**** Sadly, I think that's more a subconcious effort on the part of the writers rather than intentional. I think they are uplifting Finn for being all those things, and don't realize it. The writers have tried to represent minorities but haven't been able to look outside their own privileged point of view. This is probably why Kurt's story is the most successful, because they do have the point of view of someone whose actually gay. However, their portrayal of people of color, people with disabilities, and women is general is how a person who has never been in any of those positions ''thinks'' those groups feel and act, rather than offering any true perspective. It is possible to write outside your own experiences, but these writers have not shown to be up to the task. For example, if they had done any research at all, they would know that in real life Artie's chair wouldn't even have handles that allow people to push him around like a prop, and he would have figured out ways get himself in and out of the auditorium up stairs and steep ramps by himself because he would be used to obstacles like that in everyday life. And he wouldn't be lifting tiny weights in the weight room.

[[WMG:The competition rules in "Mattress"]]
New Directions is disqualified for accepting the mattresses. They can't return them because Will used one. So why doesn't Will ''pay'' for that mattress, and return all the other ones?
* Someone might remember the Will-Figgins-Sue conversation a little better, but I think Will tried to make that exact suggestion (I'll pay for the used one!) only to have Figgins cut him off with something that sounded conclusive. A lot of amateur athletic associations do have scary strict rules regarding competitive eligibility, ''vis a vis'' endorsements and other commercial enterprises. So I suppose on some level I can buy what happened. I don't buy that it would happen identically in the real world, but insofar as it doesn't set off my complete bullshit alarm, I can accept it as a dramatic device.
** Will suggested to return ''all'' the mattresses. Since one was used, it couldn't be returned. So why can't you just pay for the one mattress you've used, and return the other mattresses?
Also, why does being disqualified from competition prevent Will from actually seeing the show as an audience member?
** It may not have, but with all the various red tape that's been involved for the rule books, he may have decided not to run the risk of someone deciding his very appearance there would disqualify the group. Besides, from the story perspective, he needed to be at [=McKinley=] to give Finn the inspiration for the last minute save and let him borrow his car.

[[WMG:The Guest Stars]]
I am starting to get really sick of reading that some other music star is going to be on Glee. I like this show, a lot actually, and I like a good deal of the characters. However a whole bunch of them are really underdeveloped and instead of using the back 9 to focus on them, they're jam packing it with more celebrities and more songs. This isn't ''American Idol'', where you can have some Grammy winner sing for 5 minutes to fill time, there's a plot going on here. And I am only worried in the first place because the episode that revolved around a guest star last season (The Rhodes Not Taken) was complete filler just because they got a big name and it put a hault to all the plots.
* Well... "the Rhodes Not Taken" also had some character development for Rachel, Will, Emma, etc.
* What world is it that Kristen Chenowith is a big name? I love her to death, but she is well-known in a tiny segment of the populous. Moreover, a segment that was by-and-large already watching the show.
** Uh, the world that is the target demographic? Musical, and theatre fans? She's kind of a household name amongst anyone that's ever picked up a play program.
** Kristin Chenoweth has also done a lot of roles on TV that viewers might recognize her from. She won an Emmy, for God's sake - someone must know who she is.

[[WMG:Instruments]]
How is that almost all the guys can play some musical instrument or other but none of the girls can? Artie's got guitar and bass, Puck's got guitar, Finn has drums, Kurt has piano. The jazz band is composed entirely of guys. Mike and Other Asian haven't show any skills yet but I'm sure they'll pull out a violin or something. But I haven't seen any displays of musicianship from the girls bar their voices.
* Guys working to develop skills that will get them chicks isn't a new thing (can't say about Kurt). Hell, it's probably why most musicians are male in the real world.
** Rachel has a keyboard in her room, presumably she knows how to use it.
* Duh. To set the stage for all the males to band together in a... band and woo their respective girls at some point in front of the rest of the school!

[[WMG: Finn worship]]
Finn's voice being the weakest has been addressed above but what bugs me is the MartyStu level of worship he gets "oh he's such a great leader we will never win ANYTHING without him" and he has the most main characters trying to get into his pants (Rachel, Kurt, Quinn and April Rhodes). And yes he's the quarterback, but he is the quarterback of Ohio's worst football team ever and as the leader, wouldn't that be seen as his fault? when it comes to popularity "points" Quinn as head Cheerleader would score higher in the couple, but the show doesn't treat it like that, she seems to be lucky to bag him. Besides in [=McKinley=] where the Cheerio's rule supreme, wouldn't the top male cheerio be the king of the school as Finn seems to be?
* Sadly, it's part of the UnfortunateImplications of the show that Glee wouldn't go anywhere without Finn, the popular and strong straight white guy (at least Rachel has the voice to back it up). Although we need to repeat that last part over again - "male cheerleader". I'm surprised there are any, and that they're not gettting slushied more than the Glee kids.
** Will used to be extremely popular and he was head male vocalist when Glee was in and he was popular for being top in a club that is now considered as outing yourself (ahh, homophobia). So why wouldn't the top male athletes be popular which would be male cheerio's!
** In addition, the Cheerio's are a National-level group of performers. In most schools that compete at that level, no matter how unusual or unmanly they are, being that good at a sport or activity tends to prevent bullying, if only because school staff would jump right to the rescue. As the troper above stated, Glee ruled the school when Will was part of it, when they were regularly taking National competition.
* While I wouldn't discuss Finn's voice talent, I would like to point out that his leadership qualities have been shown on several occasions on the show, besides being the quarterback. In the very first episode, the gleeks are fighting over some decisions, and not even Will can get them to work. Finn does it. In the ending, they are literally lost until he comes to the rescue. Besides, Puck is just as much straight, white and popular(like Quinn and Brittany) but I don't see no one complaining about them. Or Will, who has the same "qualities"
* This seems to be subverted in the fact that Finn doesn't want to become "The Hero". Everyone just makes him out to be.
* To be fair in regards to Finn's singing compared to others, he has the weakest voice in the males ON GLEE. It doesnt relate to the rest of the school, just the male characters in Glee club, i think. If Corey Monteith were seriously that bad he wouldn't have gotten the part, plus although i don't like Finn personally, I think Corey is like Pierce Brosnon in MamaMia, if he isn't straining too hard to get the power behind the notes and hit the right notes or if he is harmonized with someone other than Rachel, he sounds quite good. To Sir with Love, he sinqed fantastically with Mercedes, and Like a Prayer his leading into Kurt's part matched perfectly. So sure he isn't as strong vocally, but he has charisma to rouse the others into action, the personality, kind but dumb, to make those who aren't roused by the Speeches follow him, and has the social connections to make Puck sing... i think thats a win.
[[WMG: The Bullying]]
This one really, ''really'' bugs me - Figgins knows about all the crap that the Glee kids get from other students, SO WHY DOESN'T HE DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT? I know he couldn't stop it completely, but the least he could do is take away the Slushie machine and come down hard on any defaced yearbooks that he found.
* I thought the kids got the slushies from convinience stores and the like. Anyway, look at real life schools. A lot of them don't do anything about bullying. A few of them MIGHT talk to the bully, but that doesn't really do anything. One time in middle school my friend was confronting a girl who had been picking on me all year. The other girl bashed my friend's head against the locker, and the next day she returned, no suspension or anything. The first thing she did when she saw me was pick on me again. I think you get my point, I'm sure a lot of people can tell you of real-life bullying moments where nothing is done.
* Have we ever seen any of the kids actually report a bully to a teacher? It's kind of hard to put a stop to something when you don't even have the names of the people doing it.
** Good point, but it's not the students' attitude to bullying that bothers me, as I've had a lot of similar experiences, but the teachers'. At least when I was at school they paid a little lipservice to Anti-bullying, but the staff at [=McKinley=] seem to do nothing. It's like it doesn't happen at all. Surely the cleaners or other teachers notice the pornographic depictions of students in the bathrooms?
* As someone who was bullied right through until the end of year 12, it doesn't matter how often you complain or what actually happened, the most punishment meted out is a slap on the wrist. Or you get accused of antagonising them, especially if you have teachers that oh so desire to be part of the 'cool'. So, there's nothing to say nobody has reported it, really.
* The glee students not fighting back bugs me. They have football players, Kurts ball-launching Kick, and Santana. Let`s not forget they also have a soundproof room, a thief (Puck) who can steal Sues megaphone, and a diva (Mercedes) who can Belt a note through the megaphone that would deafen them. (Not to mention Rachel and Kurts dads who can sue the bullies and the school.) Bullies get away with everything, so why not pull a Dexter on them and fight slushy with slushy!
** It`s also been shown that the teachers can physically assault students, so why not get Shue to do so... instead of having him constantly stand there and impotently take the abuse himself.

[[WMG: Hell-O]]
It seems like a lot of the characters were... well out of character in that episode. There weren't many memorable songs, and the context of them was kind of shaky at times. There's still no mention of what Quinn's living arrangements are.
[[WMG: Traits from the beginning]]
Whatever happened to some of the character traits and stuff shown in the first few episodes? Like Finn's extreme ejaculation problem, or Pucks milf loving ways, and whatever happened with the celibacy club? Or... the fact that Will actually works as a Spanish Teacher?
** Finn hasn't had a lot of sex recently and Quinn presumably got kicked out of the celibacy club, what with the pregnancy and all. Puck's trying to be a one-woman man; I assume that'll collapse at some point. Will's actual job has pretty much been ignored and now plays no role in the series.
*** If you recall Finn had that problem BECAUSE he's never had sex and is constantly surrounded by hot girls. And Puck's hasn't been faithful to Quinn if you haven't forgot his flings with Santana, and the fact that Will is a spanish teacher's ignored completely is exactly why I brought it up.
*** Exactly how much time should we spend focusing on Finn's ejaculatory issues? Enough plotlines on that point and it gets more than a little creepy; they covered the "issue," it served its purpose, it's time to move on. Puck's thing with Santana came before he was actually "with" Quinn; she was still carrying on with the fatherhood lie and "trying out" Puck as a father figure. And you asked what happened to Will's role as a Spanish teacher. The writers happened: there's no reason to spend any time on Will's day job. We have other things to worry about now.
*** But it was a serious problem with him. He couldn't even kiss girls. They never showed him getting over this, it just stopped. Even just an idle handwave like being a parent has set his mind on other things would be better than NOTHING.
**** He can kiss girls, he kissed Quinn all the time. The problem was the fact that he got too turned on when he was making out with someone, which didn't happen between Sectionals and the Power of Madonna.
**** Turns into a Chekov's gun in the recent episode, so it wasn't completely forgotten.
[[WMG: How much time has passed between Sectionals and Hell-o!?!?!?!?]]
Some things made it seem like not long had passed (Rachel expecting them to be more popular now because of the win at sectionals), yet other things seemed to suggest it's been quite a while (like it now being Basketball season).
* Most schools have basketball starting a couple weeks after football season ends (less if the football team goes to districts or state) and since Finn said in Sectionals that football season was over, Hell-o probably takes place around 2-3 weeks later.
[[WMG: The Power of Madonna]]
* Finn: "Frankly, I need you. I'm tired of carrying the male vocals by myself."...what about Arnie,Kurt and Puck - each one of them having a far better voice than you, you goddamn asshole. No wonder that Mercedes and Kurt left for Cheerios and I'd absolutely love if they remained more-or-less permanent and the whole thing wasn't just Sue's ploy to divide them. Still, anyone else find Kurt's LampshadeHanging quite ironic given how honestly straight Finn delivered his line?
** He was throwing an olive branch to a kid he had previously greeted with outright hostility. It was his way of connecting to another singer, paying him a compliment and doing it in a light-hearted way.
** Also, just because the other guys have better voices certainly doesn't mean that they get all the lead parts. I'm pretty sure that's somewhere else on this page.
** Also, in a unintentional moment of brilliance by Finn, he could be verbally stepping aside (in Glee, in the love triangle) graciously for Jesse. That is to say, he's willing to share the spotlight and let others make their choices as they wish (Rachel's heart, Shue's decision to let Jesse join). So more than just a compliment and appeal to Jesse's ego, he's demonstrating the lesson of the episode - understanding.
* On another note: the feminism in this episode seems a bit over the top. It's a good message, but they're derailing and abusing male characters to get it across. It seems like a lot of shows lately are pushing gender equality while ignoring the fact that guys need to be respected too. Puck is represented as a bad guy for not wanting to sing about being a girl, which is pretty in character for him. It's not a bad thing to be a man. ([[AzuraRey This Troper ]] is female, BTW)
** "It's easy to be a dude"
*** Said by the white straight able-bodied jcok to his minority friends(Jewish, Asian and Black) and people who get discrimitated for other stuff(Wheelchair user, gay) this comes out as a VERY stupid thing to say. Not to mention the girls have been pretty bitchy all long too(Quinn cheated on Finn, Rachel has been trying to seduce him, both used Puck as a Finn substitute, Mercedes broke Kurt's windshield for not having her way, and Tina... faked her stutter.
** The only plotline in the episode that really bothered me was Artie's. That flashback seemed staggeringly out of character for one of the few genuinely decent people in the school.
** Artie didn't seem that out of character in the fact that we've barely even got a chance all season to even KNOW his character. All we've known about him till now is that he's in a wheel chair, dislikes people who pretend to stutter, and ... that's actually it. The only proof that he's a nice lovable guy was pretty much just us assuming that he is because he dresses like Mr. Rogers' dorky grandson.
*** And he seems to not always think before saying things that are kind of inappropriate (if funny) if "I still have the use of my penis" is anything to go by.
** I think it's more like he's just clueless and socially awkward. He was trying to be cool like Puck supposedly is and failed horribly.
** TPOM was 'awful', especially with the '''heavy''' handed message of feminism (especially when they gave a line about how women are payed less to 'Quinn', who seems to have no regret about having behaved as the worst female stereotype ever) and the completely ''bogus'' Tina/Artie subplot. Her reaction was especially horrificly written; I suppose they were going for empowered woman, but it clearly ended up being raving lunatic with a touch of AxCrazy and asylum escapee. Oh, and Sue basically becoming ruler of the school and playing Madonna songs loud over the loudspeakers? Not funny. Not. One. Bit. There was a bit of interest (the 'virgin' plot), but it resolved itself stereotypically. Yet people call it a CrowningMomentOfAwesome. Yeah, right... DethroningMomentOfSuck is more likely.
*** In this troper's opinion(and his friends), Tina's AxCrazy act was both ''awesome'' and ''funny''. It only needed her flipping Artie off.
**** ... Sorry, but I can't believe it. Those lines were just ''too stupid and embarrassing'' for ANYONE to find them funny other than 'ha ha ha look at how stupid that girl is being. I felt ''second hand embarrassment'' for the actors.

[[WMG: Jesse St. James]]
Jesse in general. If he really fell for Rachel, we'll end up with another spotlight stealer as if RachelxFinn wasn't enough of tumor yet. If he's still pretending and spying, where exactly are they going with that? Is he going to drop out of New Directions and ditch them for his old team when the time is right?
** Being a smug jackass doesn't help either.

[[WMG: Sue's blackmail]]
Anyone else getting a massive suspension of disbelief towards Sue's now apparent blackmail and her blatant abuse of power? She was quite relate-able back when she'd simply have a lot of influence on the school due to her charismatic personality and the success of her Cheerios, but now that she literally runs the school and demonstrates that by getting her ridiculous demands across, haven't they pretty much ran that trope into the ground?
** I thought it's awesome as usual.
** I find it helps to assume she has other, more incriminating photos than just the one she took on screen. I have to say, if all has is the one photo, then I think we might expect Figgins to roll the dice with his wife. "Yes, honey, I can see the photo. She's completely clothed. Remember that unbelievable sociopath I've been telling you about, the one I suspended? She drugged me and took that picture so she could blackmail me. Yes, I get that sounds stupid. But if we did anything wrong, wouldn't she have a more incriminating photo than that? Have I ever given you reason to believe that I'd cheat on you?"
** Yes, but if Sue has done something to get more incriminating photos than that, ''then she's essentially raped him''. So basically, she should be in jail right now, not getting her job back.
** Sue should probably be in jail for any number of reasons (blackmail itself is illegal), but that notwithstanding, I don't know that I buy the premise. She could have taken naked photos without any sexual contact being involved. Besides, all of this is irrelevant: the blackmail is basically a slightly more elaborate HandWave. We need Sue on the show and in the school, because she's awesome, but we ended the first half of the season with her suspension. How do we get her back in the driver's seat with a minimum of explanation? BLACKMAIL!
** It worked as a basic HandWave, but now not only she's abusing said handwave, but also openly taunting Schue over it and merely getting more witnesses to testify against her blackmail. Figgins hiring her back simply because 'she really is that good' would've been a bit more plausible.
** That's absolutely reasonable. But part of the problem when trying to criticize Glee is that it's a show that revels in the ridiculous. If the writing staff, when faced with the problem of getting Sue back on the show, is asked to choose between a reasonable solution and a ridiculous, over-the-top solution that allows Sue to do something unbelievable, it's going to choose the latter. Without hesitation.

[[WMG: Pendergast]]
* So our IntrepidReporter, a man who very nearly won a Pulitzer Prize (which he was ineligible for as a magazine writer, but whatever) for his investigative journalism, witnesses one Cheerios event and decides he has his story? A story, by the way, that he notes is precisely the opposite of the one he intended to write. Did he talk to ''anyone'' at the school? His interaction with the main subject of his story consisted of the length of Mercedes' song and a one-minute conversation in her office. JournalismDoesNotWorkThatWay.
** I just saw him as some newbie journalist who was lying about the Pulitzer prize (he didn't even know he was ineligible but it sounded good) who had no clue what he was doing. After all, how popular do you think that ''Splits!'' magazine really is? Either way, I thought this was the single best way that someone has stuck it to Sue so far.
** For the matter, much like everything else in the show, he kind of over-inflates everything. At any rate, one wonders if Sue's new image (as far as the wider world is concerned) will comeback later in the show as a Chekov's Magazine Article where she has to maintain her increased popularity.

[[WMG: Molly Shannon]]
* What was the point? I get that I'm bitching about guest stars again but ''seriously''. Let's get a talented comedienne that people recognize and give her 2 scenes and no jokes, especially in an episode that already had 2 special guest stars. She's slated to return soon so maybe it was just set up so she can play a bigger part later but when you do something like that you get a smaller actor to play the part so that we're genuinely surprised and interested when something juicy happens! WTHCastingAgency?!
** What exactly was bad about it? It was a small surprise cameo of a famous actor. Just like with Idina Menzel, and Olivia Newton John, and Kristen Chenowith and the other famous stars, it's just a fun guest appearance. It's not like she was stealing the spotlight or was a bad character. Is the fact that she appeared at all ''that'' bad?

[[WMG: Rachel whining about how unpopular she is.]]
Okay, it was believable in the first few episode when she got a slushie facial. But after she got almost all of the solos, dated [[spoiler: Puck, Finn, and Jesse]], and is being stalked by creepy Jacob Ben Isreal, I just don't buy it anymore. Sure, most of the other kids at her school act like she doesn't exist, but she is probably the best singer in Glee club, she's rich enough to afford ballet lessons, and has dated three of the main characters. Am I really supossed to buy that she thinks she's unpopular? If she wanted to, she could have all the other Glee club members clubbing each other to be her friends.
* Some of the things you mentioned are exactly why she IS unpopular. Because of her attitude, her general one-up-manship, and her never being satisfied, every one else can't stand her in the group. I believe she does want to be friends with the others, but she's spent her entire life trying to prove that she is the best at what she does, mostly by pointing out flaws in other people (see her conversation with Puck in episode 17). This is not the way to endear yourself with other people. [[spoiler: Puck and Finn have both taken nose dives in the social ladder, partially by dating her, and Jesse is the new kid at the school, and a lot like a male version of Rachel himself, so dating them wouldn't boost her popularity any]]. Besides, being talented at something does NOT guarantee popularity, especially if its something that most people in the school already think is uncool. Finally, how rich do you have to be to afford ballet classes? I didn't think it was for the rich and famous only.
** Not to mention the fact that one of her primary motivations is her desire to be popular... a desire which has not helped her ''at all''. Maybe the popular people see this desperate desire and think that she's pathetic. A vicious cycle perhaps?
** Probably spot on. One imagines that people would rather deal with a more likeable person with less character flaws but that's less talented versus someone who's talented... but a diva and poor team player.

!!Emma and Will
Okay, I'm a little confused on this one. I know that I'm supposed to see Will as being jerked up short for cheating on Emma. I do see that, and I know that what Will did was wrong. In other shows where this has happened, I've felt that the character on Emma's side of this was right unconditionally. But in this particular situation, I feel more sympathy for Will than I do for Emma. Do any other tropers feel this way? Have you managed to nail down why? Not knowing is what JustBugsMe in this situation.
* For Will to have cheated on Emma they would have to be dating, which, technically, they weren't. Not only did his encounters with Vocal Aldrenalin's coach not go anywhere Will and April didn't have sex. Will has made no commitment whatsoever to Emma and although they both feel he betrayed her trust in some way the fact of the matter is that he actually hasnt done anything wrong, which is why her public dressing down of him may evoke sympathy not for Emma, but for Will. He's made to feel bad about taking her advice and trying to figure out what he wants, not only from himself, but any relationship he might enter in to. He's doing exactly what a man (or woman) in his situation should do and is made out to be a villian for it.
* Plus, Sue was the one who goaded Emma to rant at him in the first place, so the whole thing is stained with Sue's anti-Will sentiment that instinctively gets us on his side.
* Will and Emma were ''clearly'' in a relationship at the time when he was making out with Shelby. She broke things off with him after that.
** Two dates does not make a relationship. Furthermore she kissed him, and he stopped it before things went any further because he was interested in pursuing a relationship with Emma.
*** Will ''told'' Shelby that he and Emma were in a relationship, and both he and Emma clearly felt that way. He even picked out a ''song'' for their relationship. If they were just being casual and had an "understanding" then he wouldn't have felt guilty about taking Shelby back to his place.
*** Will and Shelby were talking in the Carmel High auditorium, and then it cut to them making out back at Will's apartment. Even if Shelby did initiate the kiss, Will let it go on for a quite a while. And why did he bring her back to his place if he wasn't planning on doing anything?
* Emma got to know about Will's "infidelity"(he was claiming to wait for her, at least) from ''Sue''. This troper sided with Emma immediately.
** I agree. Emma was putting in a ''lot'' of work in her problems so that she'd be ready to be in a relationship with Will. And instead of helping her and being supportive, Will's been making out with Elphaba, experimenting with Glinda, and contemplating how he feels about his wife. Emma didn't even seem to cross his mind. The dick.
*** Really? How much work could she have been doing when the only therapist she saw was Sue Sylvester ''after'' Sue ''made'' herself Emma's "therapist." The only thing Will's guilty off is lack of expirience and poor judgement and doesn't deserve public humiliation for his relatively minor misstep (Will and Emma weren't even dating whe April spent the night, and Emma even couraged him to figure out what he wants and needs from a relationship, really the only way to do that is to date other people). Not telling Emma was probably the best thing he could do, look at how she reacted with Sue egging her on, who knows what would have happened if Will himself told her, don't forget that Emma is not entirely stable.
*** Emma said previously that she was seeing help. Just because a few episodes later Sue says she's decided to be Emma's helper that one day doesn't mean Emma never went to the proffesional like she said she was already doing. And if 'finding himself' could only be solved by him dating people, then ''why did they stop dating in the first place?''. They stopped dating because she didn't think he was ready to date people yet, while she was going to get help for her problems. Instead of listening to this and acting on her advice to examine himself and spend time alone for a while, he goes gallivanting off with every age appropriate woman.
* I felt for both of them. Will's a confused, stressed new divorcee who really has no idea how to handle being single because he's been with Terri for so damn long, and he's panicking. It's a [[TruthInTelevision pretty common reaction]] to divorce, even in people who value committment and would never normally cheat on a significant other (I ''know'' someone who had this kind of behaviour going on for a while and not only did she not fit the cheater profile, she broke it off with her husband because ''he'' was cheating on ''her''). That doesn't make what he's done to Emma any better, but it is understandable. He really isn't ready for a new relationship; Emma was walking into Ground Zero but, because she's never been in a relationship herself, she was too naive to know it was a bad, bad idea. Essentially she's been taking advantage of his various states of confusion for the entire Will/Emma plotline but earns sympathy anyway because she is a giant {{Woobie}} legitimately trying to overcome her many neuroses, and she was almost definitely not aware that she was taking advantage of anyone. It's a pretty grey situation and I don't think the show means for us to take the side of either character in particular.
* I can't be the only one bothered that Will only suggested Emma get help after she didn't have sex with him. And his face when she tells him she's a virgin. There was something about the kiss on the season finale that just didn't sit right with me. Maybe it was how angry he looked, or how he insisted she still loved him even though she was making attempts to move on, but it was the moment I stopped shipping them.
* At this point, Wills lesson of the day should just be a recording of himself labelled "don`t do this".

!!All the other Glee Club Members Parents?
* Where are they? So far we've only seen Mrs. Hudson, Mr. Hummel, the Fabrays, and a brief shot of Mrs. Puckerman, and they're only seen at their jobs and such. Why do we never see all the other Glee Club parents at competions? Why don't we see them back stage in between each performance, congradulating their children?
** Because there... hasn't been a reason to show them yet? Most performances we see on the show are during school hours anyway, and the scenes usually cut off right after the number finishes. Also, you missed some: we've seen Rachel's parents in her locker photo, too, in the first or second episode.

!!Run Joey Run
* So why exactly were Puck, Jesse, and Finn so upset about "Run Joey Run"? She used an artistic license for a music video. All that happened was that there were other guys ''in general'' in the video. No kissing, or hugging, just... being there. Kurt and Quinn danced together a few times when she dated Finn, no one freaked out about that. This doesn't seem to be very different. Using their logic they might as well have been furious at Sandy for shooting Rachel in the video.
** Because she lied to all three of them about the intent of the video, she told Puck it would help him get his reputation back, she probably told Jesse it was because he's her boyfriend and it would be fun and romantic, and most likely told Finn it was just for the Glee club project and she needed him because [[SarcasmMode he is just the best singer ever]]. All of this was a blatant lie, the true purpose behind the entire thing, as stated by Finn, was to make Rachel look better by enditing the video to make it look like she had three guys after her. If she had told them from the beginning that all three of them would be involved they would most likely be okay with it, but once again she went behind someone's back with her own agenda for the primary purpose of making herself look like some uber-diva. This is behavior she was supposed to have grown out of at sectionals.
*** But... even if that was the reason for the three guys... it really doesn't come out as "three guys wanting the girl" it's more like "the director couldn't decide which of the three was better and left the three"
*** But that's just it, all it was was "three guys in a music video with a girl." There's only one scene where the guys are even in the same room as Rachel in the video, and all it is is just leaning over her. Compare it to some of their saucier dance numbers before and their reaction is pretty out of left field.
** I can understand Jesse being kind of upset of not being told about "sharing" his girlfriend with other two guys. Finn and Puck, however, have no claim, as Puck pretty much used Rachel in the same way before, and Finn break up with her in the first place.
*** Puck didn't seem to care about that, though. He just said that the video was lame (which it was).
**** Actually, Puck seems to be mad at being ''used'' instead of being the one that uses. And It wasn't lame. It was Narmtastic. Beyondtheimpossible.
** There's no reason to "freak out" about Kurt dancing with Quinn because he's gay. Also don't they switch it around a bit as Quinn has also done a bit of dancing in more than one song with Artie IIRC.
*** Exactly. So if what was going on in the music video was just as innocent as if it was Kurt, if not more so, why freak out at all? Who knew high school boys get all huffy about (gasp!) a guy singing next to a girl in a music project!
**** I though exactly the same thing. Nobody I knew in high school would have reacted that way, especially the theatrical kids who would understanding the idea of "acting". But I've also heard several Glee fangirls claim they would freak out if their boyfriend was in that video playing another girl's boyfriend and [briefly] holding her (gasp!), so apparently some teenagers are that ridiculous.
**** Using that same logic, why wouldn't Rachel tell the truth and come clean with the plan? If it was no big deal and all.
***** Because Rachel really isn't all that smart.
* It's only purpose was to lead up to "Total Eclipse of the Heart", but the writers were too chicken to make her do anything actually bad. If she had actually made a "slutty girl singer" video things would have made a lot more sense, or at least a song that actually features multiple men going after one girl. It was just really bad writing, especially when Finn had to basically [[ThatMakesMeFeelAngry explain to the audience why they were all mad.]] I'm pretty sure the actor didn't even understand what he was saying.
* At the end of Rachel's "Total Eclipse of the Heart" number, all the Glee club members leave as if they're disappointed that she would do something that under-handed. This includes Artie... whom Rachel approached to help her produce the video and should have known full well what was going on.
** Exactly, what did Artie even get to do? Nothing. She approached him for help and then left him out of the loop.

!!JESSE.
* I'm sorry, he just reminds me of Edward from ''{{Twilight}},'' but without the charm of a blood-drinking corpse.
** He reminds me of Edward too, only done right. He actually does like Rachel, and his pushy behavior comes off as pushy! He's actually a flawed but loveable character, which Edward never was.
** Original poster here. [[spoiler: I made this JBM before "Dream On," where we find out the whole point of his act is to help his teacher reconnect with her biological daughter. This definitely changed my mind about him for the better.]]

!!The School Environment
* I understand that Glee is a work of fiction, and is meant to be a parody of standard high school tropes, but the absolutely toxic school environment just bugs me. In what universe are high school students allowed to throw slushies at each other with no consequences? Or allowed to print announcements about pregnant students in the school newspaper? Or throw students into dumpsters? Or demand that girls give up their panties as bribes? It may just be a case of CrapsackWorld, but since when do the quarter back or head cheerleader become objects of abject loathing just for joining a club?
** Most of the abuse probably goes unreported. "Snitches" and "tattle-tells" are lower than dirt in high school. Kids who run crying to teachers are just bullied extra for being wimps.
** Where are all the teachers? They can't be completely oblivious to all the abuse that goes on in the school. People like Sue and Ken obviously won't do much to stop the abuse, but where are all the other teachers whose job it is to protect their students from bullying, violence, and sexual harassment?
** How are the kids at this school so twisted that a person can go back and forth from best friend to hated enemy three or four times a day? Everyone in this place is out of their minds.
** I take it you've never gone to a public high school.
** This Troper DID go to public high school, and while she can attest that SOME of the bullying is believable (having had food items, paper, GUM thrown at her in the past), the rapid shift from friends to OMGIHATUFOREVR doesn't happen quite so fast as on the show.
** This Troper is currently going to a public high school(in Ohio!), and while bullying exists there, it's usually cracked down upon immediately when it happens. Plus, the people who complain about being bullied aren't "lower than dirt" as another Troper said. Then again, I've only been bullied once (and it was in middle school, not high school), and my school's anti-bullying system could just be unusually good. That, or the fact that the school is so large that clique formation is pretty much impossible without getting lost in the crowd.
** Granted I didn't go to public school, however I can attest to rapid changes in a person's attitude at that age. I could be best friends with someone at the start of first period, worst enemies by second and best friends again just in time for third. I remember a particularly vivid incident where I got so mad at a boy at lunch that I threw a water bottle at his head while I was yelling at him. By the bus ride home we were back to our usual heaviy flirting.
* After watching the latest episode... It is just me, or Will is ''way'' too aware of the bullying, and not only that, but is actually encouraging it, and encouraging a sort of gang war?
** He was encouraging the glee members to stand up for themselves and other people who are being bullied. Divided we are weak, together as one we are strong, etc. After so much infighting and slurpees, instead of acting alone or just letting it happen, they all finally grouped together to tell those football players off, and it worked.
** The SlowClap thing was just ridiculous. It's fine if they want to have the Gleeks stand up for themselves, but they can't have a teacher witnessing the abuse and not doing anything about it. In a real high school those neanderthals could easily be expelled.
** Also why exactly is this a bad thing? I can't be the only person who thinKs a gang war of Lady Gaga and Kiss impersonators vs. football players would be a FRIGGIN' AWESOME season finale.
*** Now that is put that way.... HELL YES. But yeah, the whole scene just paints Will as a HUGE jerkass, sure, United We Stand, but how many times has he passed Kurt with his "friends" near the trash bins?
** This Troper was bullied in elementary and half of middle school, but it was all verbal. There were some kids who got in fights, but if a kid was thrown in a dumpster, pushed into a locker, etc., the teachers would do something immediately. What gets me is: In one episode, Will sees Kurt get pushed into a locker and promptly tells Kurt that he's worried because Kurt isn't letting the bullying just roll of him and is showing signs of anger and isolation. [[WhatTheHellHero What The Hell Teacher]].
*** In fairness, Will might not have seen the actual push. Some people say he came around the corner in time to see it, while others say he came around after it had been done.

!!The GLIST
* I don't think this was brought up. Anyways, it was completely infuriating for Quinn to put the whole club down just to make herself feel better. Not only that, she places the blame on Rachel(and putting the list on Rachel's locker - that's real classy and mature Q). Even after knowing the club would get disbanded and the list maker may get suspended if no one came forward, she doesn't do a single thing. And what does she get? SYMPATHY and a nice pep talk from Will. That is all. Once again, Quinn gets away with screwing people over and Rachel gets pissed on for doing something harmless.
** To be fair, it seemed like she was about to confess at the end of the episode until Will stepped in and saved her bacon.
*** Did you notice Tina, Artie, Kurt, Brittany, and Mercedes all were spared from the GList? They were the ones who are actually nice to her (I'm not sure if she's friends with all of them but if she hangs out with Mercedes she probably hangs out with the first three and Brittany doesn't seem to be really mean like Santana and might talk with her). She was just getting back at Puck (who ruined her life), Finn (who dumped her), and so on.
**** ...Brittany was on the glist. She was 4th. This is why she made out with Kurt - to try to get higher.

!!Bryan's Care Package
* I don't think this was directly answered at the end of "Dream On," but did the club get to keep all that stuff Bryan offered then snatched away in a moment of fuckle spite before Will gave up the lead role in ''LesMiserables'' for him?
** Presumably. The important part was to see Bryan snatching them away.
!!Spring Break?
* Wait, I'm confused, Jesse was gone during spring break? Does that mean spring break happened already? Because that can't be right, Quinn's birth was due by then and she barely even shows.
** She shows enough, her clothing choice just makes it seem like she doesn't. Her due date was "around" Spring Break, and with two-three episodes left in the season, it's clear they're just going to say she was a bit late, in time to give delivery in (most likely) the finale.
*** Let me stress this once more, one episode explicitly states that she is DUE by Spring break. When it's that close to birthday time, you shouldn't be squinting to see the baby bump. If it was ''that'' close to the expectancy then she shouldn't be singing and dancing and putting on corsets for madonna routines.
** Jesse went back to his old school after the "Run, Joey, Run" debacle. His school probably has their spring break earlier than [=McKinley=] High has theirs.
*** Since he was in the Glee numbers and in the hallways during "Dream On", I think he's still at [=McKinley=]. He probably just took off some time to be with his friends during their spring break. He's a senior who's finished college applications, he can get away with it.

!!Rachel never knew her mother?
* Isn't it a bit strange (and a little too dramatically convenient) that Rachel's dads never allowed her to contact her birth mother? Shelby said Rachel was taken away immediately after birth, and that she never even got to hold her. Granted, Shelby was a stranger who only agreed to be a surrogate for the money, but it seems unnecessarily cruel of Rachel's dads to completely cut Shelby out of the picture and deny Rachel any knowledge of her biological mother.
** No, it's not. It happens all the time; look up closed adoptions on Google. Shelby would have signed a contract saying that she wouldn't be involved in Rachel's life. It's a legal thing, it would have been agreed upon by all three people, and it would have likely been ''her'' decision in the end. It's not like Rachel's parents are purposely keeping Shelby and Rachel from meeting because they are evil--they probably don't even know how to contact her.
** Shelby can't contact her (legally) until she's 18. Rachel explicitly says she has never asked her parents because she doesn't want to hurt their feelings, so it's really more likely that they have ''no'' idea she's curious about that part of her life.
** It just bugs me that instead of having an emotional episode or just an episode at all involving her dads, instead it's of her going off to find her surrogate mother.

!!Puck's Pro-Mercedes GenreShift
Mercedes says she and Puck can't be a thing because he's Top 40 and mysogynistic and she's R&B and doesn't want to be played for a fool. How does singing "The Lady is a Tramp" get her on his side, let alone convince her that he's dating material? I get that it originally made fun of the high-falutin' New Yawk prissiness, though I am surprised that Mercedes still took it as a compliment, but how is that any more than a [[CompletelyMissingthePoint half-baked, misguided, and in fact technically failed]] attempt at becoming (or at least showing appreciation for) her genre?
* Mercedes obviously wanted an excuse/ to make difficult for Puck to "win" her. After Quinn talks with her, is very evidently she's delighted at "dating" Puck, even if he's just using her. What bothers me more is that she decides to both break up with Puck AND to leave the Cheerios. If she had left when the "problem" was her weight, it would have been a better message. Now she comes more as "ok, I had what i wanted, now i don't care about this shit anymore"


!!Dream On
The episode with NeilPatrickHarris didn't put the rest of the plot on hold to bask in his awesome. Why ''not''? The Rhodes Not Taken focused on KristenChenoweth pretty thoroughly. I ''want'' an episode made entirely of NPH awesome!
** Because April's a recurring character and we're never going to see Bryan again?
*** We didn't know she was going to be a recurring character during that episode. How do we know this guy won't be either?
*** I thought he ''was'' meant to be a recurring or semi-recurring character, since he's on the board of directors for the school system inm which Lima High is based, has history with the Glee Club director, and is a professionally trained singer. It just depends on how often they can get NeilPatrickHarris on the show, especially considering that they were able to keep KristinChenowith on and that it's not unheard of for someone to have a recurring part on a show when they work on [[HowIMetYourMother another]]. It makes sense for him to have only had one part (and not a solo) if he was to be a recurring character, because if his character ''could'' handle an entire episode worth of preformance, or even one strong solo, there wouldn't be much room for CharacterDevelopment once that staging of ''LesMiserables'' finishes its run.

!!Les Miserables Director
I think I can say with some certainty that the Schu/Bryan audition was by FAR the best that director got for ANY role in that play. WHY did he cast Schu as ValJean and Bryan as a one-lined chorusmember? That makes no damn sense! It's not like there aren't other heavy male roles that need a strong singer in that show. Not Javert, as that requires a Baritone, but surely Marius, or at least Thenardier would have been better casting. Also, if Schu was trying to build Bryan's love of the arts back up by getting him performing again, why would he audition for the same role?
** RuleOfFunny
** RuleOfDrama
** It's not that hard to believe, actually. Who shared this information first? SUE. The director was probably so excited about both performances that he couldn't shut his mouth, and Sue probably "asked" the director for Will to be Valjean and to give Bryan a crappy role. She ''knew'' it would devastate Bryan and it would likely cut the Glee Club. How she got it? Easy, she said she would take her laundry somewhere else, which is presumably a lot, and prestigious("The cheerios clean their stuff here!") kind of stuff. Notice that the director has no problem with Will and Bryan switching places.
** I had the same reaction as the original questioner and eventually came up with the same rationale at the person above me. The only thing that gives me pause is the lack of a "Sue doing something cruel cutaway" showing her bullying the cleaner.
** He didn't know he was auditioning for the same role, and by that time Bryan was already copycatting him.

!!Dream on - Les Mis
A little of the previous JBM but I understand Sue was being evil (and I loved Will, Bryan AND Sue in the scene where she revealed it) I have 3 JBM s (of varying degrees)

1) What would Will have done if he did get the role of Valjean? Would he have just abandoned Glee Club like that?

2) Yeah, I get that Sue was being evil and probably corrupted the Director, but couldn't we have gotten a little bit of Valjean/Javert to highlight the Will/Bryan FoeYay? Like the previous JBM mentions, it's like no other male leads exist! Yeah, I know Bryan was copying Will to be a Jerk but he could be the Javert to Will's Valjean! It just fits!

3) Bryan has a reasonable point about showbiz being a hard business to get into. Yet just like that Will manages to get him a part? I know it's necessary for the show, but it still bugs me!
* 1. He ''did'' get the role. He gave it up, explicitly to save the Glee Club. If Bryan hadn't been a diva, presumably Will would have kept the role and the Glee Club. He can do both. 2. They have, what, 43 minutes worth of actual airtime? 3. Will got Brian a part in a crummy Lima, Ohio production of Les Mis. That doesn't disprove Bryan's point at all.
** Original poster here: 1. Will would teach Spanish all day, then coach Glee Club and then be in any performance, playing a severly demanding role? Sure, he could do all that, but it ain't recommended. 2. How long would it have taken Bryan to say he was auditioning for the role of Javert? They could still sing the same song, "Dream On". I just wanted them to acknowledge Javert existed and for Bryan to identify with him. 3. It still feels like a HandWave. Everything is fine by the end and none of the Glee members have taken onboard what Mr. Ryan said.
*** Sue did it. End of story. It was an amateur production, it's highly doubtful the director even knew what a soprano/baritone etc mean. He would only want moderately good singers...

!!What did Quinn mean when she called Rachel "Treasure Trail"?
An old one, I know, I but I still don't get it. Is it something that's really specific to the US?
* A "treasure trail" is the line of body hair growing down from the naval to the crotch. It's typically thin to non-existent in women (or they wax/shave it off), so she was basically just calling her hairy/masculine as usual.
** OR Quinn is kinky and wants to discover [[GettingCrapPasttheRadar what's under]] [[LesYay the treasure trail]]

!!Shelby & Rachel singing 'Poker Face'
How is that song AT ALL APPROPRIATE for an emotional mother/daughter good-bye? I basically laid down the entire scene as a [[BigLippedAlligatorMoment BLAM]], despite it having an effect on the storyline. The song choice was just so wildly inappropriate! The line about 'bluffin' with my muffin' especially so. There had to be a Gaga song more fitting for the situation.
* "Speechless" would have been perfect. However, the entire episode intentionally had NarmCharm written all over it.
* Yeah, that was one of the low points in the show's run. Aside from mangling a solid pop song, the pop song was inappropriate for the moment and it came at the end of a legitimately affecting and effective arc.
* Also, Poker Face already has plenty of off-genre covers. It seems like they were using Lady Gaga's own acoustic version as a direct reference.
* The way I saw it, Rachel just wanted to have fun singing a catchy, silly pop song with her mom.
* I agree. It was supposed to be unrelated to the situation. It was about Rachel having fun with her mum since she was afraid it might be the last time. If it had been the fast version that would have been inappropriate. The thing I love is how they both look right after the song is finished. The moment of awkwardness sums up their relationship perfectly
* While there are lots of inappropriate parts to the song, invoking the idea of "poker face" for both of them trying to cover up how strongly being apart affects them seemed to fit the situation well. Also, "she's got to love nobody", "I won't tell you that I love you, kiss or hug you", the whole "I'm marvelous" section, and even "when it's love, if it's not rough, it isn't fun" all have parallels to the story between the two characters and I think that was the intention of using the song. You just have to be willing to look at it a different way instead of being locked into one meaning.

!!Celebritygasm
Why have the episodes lately been putting aside the story and focusing their attention more on "This episode is going to be entirely showing off [music singer]. Madonna, Olivia Newton-John, and now lady gaga. This is getting to be more than just theme episodes and celebrity guest appearances, it's starting to feel like Glee's now just product placement.
* Doesn't bother me much. {{Jukebox Musical}}s are nothing new.
* I do agree to a certain point. It's kinda jarring to see them performing songs of only one person(specially if you're from a different country and don't care about said person, but meh). The only thing I don't agree is that they're not hijacking the plot... except maybe with Lady Gaga. Will had given the assignment before, there's no reason to give it again.
* I felt that Gaga was actually one of the ones that ''didn't'' put aside the story. The idea behind Gaga and the costumes and all of that actually drove several of the plots. I thought it was one of the instances where a artist-theme episode worked great.
** Plus for those of us not into Gaga we got not one but ''two'' friggin' awesome Kiss numbers featuring Puck and Artie.
** The real shame is they talk about David Bowie briefly and then dismiss the idea entirely. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa6bI_95G9I Rebel Rebel]] would've fit the theme of the episode perfectly; "Got your mother in a whirl, she's not sure if you're a boy or a girl"...
* I felt exactly like that with the Madonna episode. I just couldn't stand it, it was like a 45-minutes long advertising instead of a Glee episode.

!!How did Santana know that Finn is/[[spoiler:was]] a virgin?
Presumably she didn't know about how Finn thought he got Quinn pregnant, so wouldn't she still think that he had sex with her but that Quinn had sex with Puck as well?
* Finn mentions the hot tub incident in Sectionals, and Puck says he was "stupid enough to buy it". We can assume from this that people knew Finn didn't actually have sex with Quinn.

!!Song censoring
Okay, so in "Bad Romance," I noticed that "I'm a free bitch, baby" was changed to "I'm a freak, baby." I don't understand, why can't they swear? The word "bitch" was used earlier in the very same episode! It made the song sound kind of awkward and it sort of gets in the way of other good songs (with just some swearing using words they've used in dialogue), so why do they censor the songs only?
* Easy, the songs are put onto iTunes, meaning anyone can download it, including little kids, but the show airs later in the night and with an age warning, meaning they can get away with language on the actual show. iTunes, however, is different. Also, I'm pretty sure the use of "freak" was to drive the message of the episode further, especially when you consider the confrontation at the end of the episode.
** Not very logically sound. You have to pay money to download a song off iTunes, and a little kid wouldn't be doing that without the parent. But anybody can watch a show on Fox for free.
*** The songs also get played on the radio. Good enough now?
*** Actually, no. Minor swearing in songs on the radio is really common. And it's a moot point anyway, because the Glee cast doesn't get radio play to begin with.
* The altered lyrics would seem to make a lot of sense in-universe, actually. Remember that these are high school kids, subject to that level of censorship. Early on they got a list of "approved" songs, and they were "all either about Jesus or balloons," or something to that effect. Even getting approval for a broader range, they still almost certainly would have been forced to alter the lyrics when they performed the songs.
* ItGetsWorse. ''Funk'' gives us "mothersucker". That actually sounds ''worse'' (as in, more inappropriate) than the original line, ''even though'' the original was an F-bomb.
** [[DidNotDoTheResearch "Tear the roof off the mothersucker" is the original lyric. Blame George Clinton.]]
** The phrase "mothersucker" is not on the FCC's blacklist and "motherfucker" is. You can use the word "penis" on TV but not all it's synonyms.[[FlatWhat What]].

!!The Broadway World In-Series
So clearly, Spring Awakening, The Light in the Piazza, the revival of South Pacific, etc. either didn't exist in the showverse or featured different cast members. I can deal with that. But seeing as they spent a good deal of an episode debating who would get to sing "Defying Gravity", isn't it a bit odd that Idina Menzel (or, for that matter, Cheno) can just show up? Who originated their roles in the showverse? Rachel's room is plastered in Broadway posters and memorabilia, and she is obviously very aware of many Broadway divas and performers, referencing Babs and Patti Lupone, so the Real Life Broadway does have a place in the show's world. But who exists and who doesn't?
* CelebrityParadox.
* Idina Menzel originated the role of Elphaba in real life. Shelby Corcoran is not Idina Menzel, she is the director of Vocal Adrenaline and just looks and sounds like Idina. Separate the actor from the character and there's no problem here.

!!Finn in "Laryngitis"
Before the "Jessie's Girl" sequence, Finn is sitting in the doctor's office with Rachel. For the sake of the plot, I understand that he needed to be there, but why would a sick teenager go see the doctor with her not-boyfriend, as opposed to her parents? Does Finn carry around Rachel's health insurance information all of a sudden?
* Easy - her dads were at the same place they always are when they aren't onscreen that prevents them from having any contact with their daughter.
* Also, it's not that uncommon for friends to go to the hospital in support of their other friends, sans parents. Perhaps Rachel didn't want her dads to also worry that she might lose her voice, so she asked Finn to come instead.
* OR they were talking with the doctor in private, before he came back with Rachel, and were getting the papers ready to go back home(Plus, they gave their little girl a moment with Finn)

!!Puck and Sammy Davis Jr.
* I know that of all the things to find ridiculous in Glee, this is kind of ridiculous. But it really bothers me that, apparently, before Puck sang 'The Lady is a Tramp' to Mercedes, he'd never heard of Sammy Davis Jr. EVERYONE I KNOW knows who Sammy Davis Jr. is, and I am by no stretch of the imagination just a musical nerd who hangs out with other music nerds. Hell, I have anime-obsessed friends who barely know anything outside of that who know who Sammy Davis Jr. is. Is Puck just stupid??
** Call me stupid, I have no idea who he is. Maybe it's a regional thing or all your friends listen to the same genre?
*** Same here. Actually many of the artists used on Glee I've never really heard of. Doesn't harm my enjoyment though.
*** He was a famous musician and member of the Rat Pack. That's about the limits of my pop culture knowledge of him.
**** Original poster commenting that 'he was a famous musician and member of the Rat Pack' is pretty basic knowledge, and is what most people know about Sammy Davis Jr., and my irritation is that Puck DOESN'T EVEN SEEM TO REALIZE THAT.
***** So what? No matter how common a knowledge can be, there will be people that simply doesn't know about those facts for any given reason(In Puck's case, he doesn't care)
** "Is Puck just stupid?" Yes. Well, more accurately he's extremely ignorant about massive swaths of the world. It makes sense to me that Sammy Davis Jr. would be in one of those ignorance zones.
** He also made reference to "King Martin Luther" earlier in the episode.
** Puck is either ''very'' stupid, or has extremely selective memory. He has questioned before if Quinn getting "fat" was his fault, and more recent, he didn't know why Finn and him "hated each other"
** Sammy Davis Jr. is an historical figure but he is not significantly historical (neither are Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin etc.) and probably not taught in history class. This troper suggests that, theater kids aside, many modern day high school students wouldn't know who Sammy Davis Jr. was either.
** Idina Menzel has a dog named Sammy Davis Jr. Jr. :3 For that reason I found it ironic...

[[folder: Funk]]
!!Jesse in "Funk"
* What the hell was his problem? Is he still mad over that stupid video from five episodes ago even though he's been perfectly fine since? I mean, I can understand if they wanted him just to be pure evil, but it was written and played out like she'd done something to upset him. Is there a scene we're missing?
* Doubtful. Remember, he's basically the male equivalent of Rachel, only less used to not being listened to. It makes sense for him to throw a temper tantrum and quit the Glee club when ''he'' feels he's not being respected or treated right, even if he's being treated as ''just'' an equal. Sort of a reflection on Rachel's behavior when she used to walk out, only played for drama - because he's designated villain/FalseRomanticLead and she's designated protagonist.
* The only thing I can think of is that they spent so much of the series focusing on plots like Rachel/Finn and handing out a ridiculous Aesop each episode that the writers realized that there would be no real conflict at Regionals (Sectionals actually focused on the other performers at least, who looked like they actually wanted to win) so they turned Jesse into the designated villain (as the person above stated) and are trying to play it off like he's been EvilAllAlong. But yeah, it's completely ridiculous, I actually liked him as he made a refreshing change from the Rachel/Finn plot that's been shoved down our throats from the start.
* He's the Paolo. No matter how sweet and perfect he was to Rachel, (Hell, last time we saw him he ''admited'' to liking her), the writers turned him evol to pair Rachel up with a main character.
** It's not even that he so much "turned" evil at all. He did this for Shelby, grew to like Rachel, but in the end, he was always going to go back to Vocal Adrenaline. He even says that he loved her, he just ended up choosing VA over her. It's not like he did a 180 flip. He's remained rather true-to-character.
*** Going back to Vocal Adrenaline would make sense as far as his characterization is concerned. Going back for the reason he said he did, or egging Rachel in the parking lot has no excuse other than bad writing. Especially considering how he acted in the last episode, specifically saying, "I don't want her getting hurt." Egging her in the very next episode he appears in is a 180 turn, alright.
**** Reason he said was more or less a lie so he didn't have to say "I only joined ND because Shelby told me to". Egging Rachel in the park had more to do with the acceptance of VA then him personally having a vendetta against her. Still not that big of a 180.
**** Considering he said "I don't want her getting hurt" ''to Shelby'', who knows the reason why he's there, the chances of it being a lie are pretty small. Maybe he wanted to be accepted, but I doubt that even he'd go along with egging a girlfriend he cared about. It just points to a lot of bad writing to me.
***** EPIC bad writing. Even if he wants to be accepted in VA again.... let's not forget he knows that [[spoiler: they egged the ''daughter'' of their coach]]. In the same episode, Shelby is portrayed as a very reasonable and nice woman. She would be ''beyond'' pissed if she ever finds out.
* I think besides the point mentioned above about him being a male Rachel, Jesse seemed very... familiar with that one girl in Vocal Adrenaline in the "Another one bites the dust" number among the other scenes when you see them together. I think that girl might have played a very big part in his turn.
* Jesse's facial expression as Rachel is running to him implies that he doesn't want to go through with this and is dreading what's about to happen next. VA had basically given him the same ultimatum ND gave Rachel, only they were bigger bastards about it and forced him prove he didn't love her.
* I just fan-wanked it to group pressure from VA. It kinda makes sense, they pressure him into doing it to make sure he's back on their team. But yeah, the writers could have portrayed it better.
!!Mercedes in "Funk"
* Frankly, who the hell does she think she is complaining that Quinn doesn't have issues? Quinn lost Finn, got kicked out of her house, gets called, "fat", is ignored by her peers (see, "Bad Reputation"), can't expect Puck to be a good father, is currently stuck living with Puck, got kicked off the Cheerios, and oh yeah, is an UNWED TEENAGE MOTHER. Mercedes is just being a bitch and playing the race card. That's low.
** And she acknowledges that when she apologizes to Quinn. From Mercedes' perspective, Quinn was just the former [[TheLibby Queen of the Cheerios]] who got knocked off her high horse so she automatically assumes that Quinn has never faced any real hardships. It's made clear at the end of the episode, where Mercedes actually ''apologizes'', that she was completely wrong.
** Seconding this JBM, and adding: The Glee Club itself is 50% minority (If you count Artie and Kurt) so it's not like Mercedes is the ONLY BLACK PERSON EVER. Meanwhile, there must be plenty of people who want to knock Quinn down a peg now that she's not on the Cheerios/Is the pregnant Ex(?)-president of the Chastity Club. So I don't see why Quinn would say that "now she understands how Mercedes feels" when she has all the issues mentioned and Mercedes is... the black daughter of a dentist, who wears designer clothes and is apparently well-liked by her peers.
** At the risk of sounding like a KingOfTheHill parody of liberal academics, it doesn't really matter that Mercedes is the "daughter of a dentist, who wears designer clothes..." The legacy of racism and institutional racism strikes at well-off African-Americans, if not with the same ferocity as it strikes poorer members of that community. I'm sure she'd still get followed in a store, still get treated poorly by waiters who think black people don't tip, etc. And, not for nothing, she ''admits'' she was wrong. She apologizes to Quinn. She also wasn't terribly popular before joining the Cheerios; she was slushied, just like Kurt and Artie.
*** But none of that was bullying was racism. Artie, Kurt and Rachel are white, and later, they also bully Puck, Finn and Quinn. OTOH, Santana, Mike and Matt don't seem to be being bullied at all.
** She probably had a kneejerk reaction to it - wouldn't you be a little "Uh... what?" if someone comes up to you that's seemingly completely different (in Quinn's case, she's a rich well to do upper class girl) and says "Yeah, I know all about your hardships!". After she had time to cool down and actually think about it, she got un-angry.
** I assumed it was more based on the fact that funk started in the black community with Soul Train and most white people who have attempted funk have, well, sucked. I think it is comparable to if Quinn wanted to rap. Admit it, the idea of a white teenage girl who grew up in an affluent household would strike most people as odd and pathetic. Mercedes's gut reaction to Quinn saying she wanted to sing funk was disdain, but by the end of the episode she had realized that she was wrong to make snap judgement about people based on their race and social upbringing.
!!Will in Funk
Will is a bastard. Other than the WhatTheHellHero he deserves it for how he treated Sue, last episode he ''encouraged'' the group to stand together against the bullies (Basically, condoning a fight against the football players) Notice that the group was supporting Finn and Kurt, who are both well-liked within the group, and the bullies were ''threatening'' them. Now, a mere episode later, the Caramel High [[spoiler: trashed their choir room, and humiliated Rachel throwing eggs at her.]] She is ''easily'' the least liked of the group, and yet, [[spoiler: ''Puck'' of all people, planned to avenge her, and Kurt, who doesn't even like her wanted to go too.]] The group has effectively evolved into a {{Nakama}} and Will's reaction is to stop them. He doesn't even report their behavior to the other school or to Shelby. [[spoiler: Sure, they got pwned with the Funk number, but Will is still a {{Jerkass}} for not even ''trying'' to report them]]
** Will encouraged the glee club to stand up for themselves and stick together but not to do anything that would get them into serious trouble (like Puck and Finn's prank) and instead find other ways to fight back. Not to mention the fact that they don't have any hard evidence that Vocal Aldrenaline vandalised the chior room while Finn and Puck were probably caught in the act of their prank, ''and'' Puck admitted to it to his own principal. If Will had reported the valdalism it would probably be a case of Shelby's word against his and since Vocal Aldrenaline comes from a larger and seeming better-funded school it would most likely not lead to any action against them. After Egging Rachel Will decides to give them a taste of their own medicine and taunt them with an awesome performance they can't hope to replicate in order to demoralize them, he just cuts out the extra acts of vandalism that he knows he couldn't get away with. Furthermore after everything Sue has done to pretty much everyone on the show how can you deny that Will isn't fully justified in taking her down a few pegs. The thing that really bothers me is his attack of concience, granted he really did it for the kids and not for Sue herself, but this is a woman who actively encourages the bullying that goes on in the school and even engages with it herself among the teachers. Pet the Dog moments and Fruedian Excuses aside Sue Sylvester is a terrible, terrible excuse for a human being. She is a spectacualrly awesome villain though.
*** Yeah, the choir room technically did nt harm, and they had no proof(hell, it was probably Sue), but egging Rachel is * way* worse, yet, while the presentation of Vocal Adrenaline in the auditorium of [=McKinley=] was probably endorsed by Shelby, she doesn't seem the kind of person to endorse juvenile pranks, (the toilet paper) even less the egging of someone (Which is pretty cruel) let alone [[spoiler: her own damn daughter]] She hasn't been portrayed as a villain (She even prevented Finn and Puck's expulsion, who would have gotten New Directions in serious trouble) so there is no reason for Will to not tell her anything about the egging. And like I said, he's encouraging a fight with the jocks and the Glee Club(Not to mention he seems to be fully aware of the bullying, but didn't did a damn about it). Sue is an AWESOME human being. She's horrible, yes, but not the kind of horrible to avoid, but the kind of horrible that annoys you so much you try to do everything in your power to prove her wrong. Technically speaking, it was thanks to her that Glee won in sectionals(Will only gave other people solos after she pointed it out, which united the team more. She also pointed out how Will hogged the money for wheelchair accessible bus, which in turn ''forced'' the Glee Club to work as a team to understand Artie better, and a large etc.) Sure, she's horrible, but it has been thanks to her that New directions has improved. Not to mention all the opportunities the girls and boys of cheerios get ''just'' because they were on the team.
[[/folder]]

!!Tina and Mike having the same last name
* Seriously, was "Chang" the only Asian surname they could think of?
** Technically, Tina's last name is actually "Cohen-Chang" while Mike's last name is just "Chang".
*** That says nothing of substance. The ''Asian'' half of Tina's last name is still the same as Mike's.
**** So what? It could end up being a plot that they're cousins, or they're just averting the OneSteveLimit. Don't forget the characters name ''Finn'' and ''Quinn'' and ''Kurt'' and ''Burt'' that sound like a bad children's fairy tale.
***** I always thought Finn/Quinn and Burt/Kurt having similar names was done for comical reasons. I bet the writers had a little bit of fun averting a silly ship name for that pairing by having them have rhyming names. And it makes sense that Burt would name his son Kurt. After all, it has been firmly established that Burt had hoped for a boy who would be just like him.
**** "Chang" is a dirt-common Asian name, period. ThisTroper works at a school and can verify how many Changs or Chens or Ngs or Nguyens attend...tons. Never raised an eyebrow with me.

!! Regionals
* This troper can't remember the pilot very well (so I'm sorry if I screwed up some of the details) but as far as I can remember, Principal Figgins tells Will that the club has to place at Regionals or it will be closed. Does 'place' translate as 'win' in the Glee-verse? Because where this troper lives, 'place' means 'come first, second, or third' and surely New Directions can do that- nobody said they had to beat Vocal Adrenaline.
** I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that will exactly be a plot point in the episode. Especially with Sue as a judge, I have a feeling New Directions will place second in Regionals. If you notice, so far it's really only been ''Sue'' saying they either have to win or it's all over so I'm fulling expecting the Principal to say otherwise if the situation arises.
** I'm pretty sure it comes from horse racing (or is just used there most commonly) but "placing" means coming in second. First is "win" (obviously), second is "place", and third is "show."

!! Will saying "Pick up your shirt!" to Terri in "Mattress"
* It sounds like he's telling her to pick up a shirt off the floor, not to lift her shirt.
** LOL

!! Figgins in "Sectionals"
* Principal Figgins tells Will that he can coach Glee club again after finding out about Sue's leaking of the set list, and told him he phoned up the Governing board and set the record straight. HOW? Will was banned from coaching the Glee club for sleeping on a mattress that was considered payment for the glee kids services, it had nothing to do with Sue!
** I felt that what he was actually referring to was the mattress incident. He called them and set the record straight about THAT. Which is hwy he could then coach again. But maybe I was alone in that interpretation.
** The fact still remains that Will broke the rules, he slept on a mattress which was considered accepting payment, he didn't do anything to nullify it, the rule was still broken.
** Will was only "banned" from sectionals as he accepted the payment from the mattress he used. He can coach at school as much as he wants to, and they'll probably hand-wave the whole thing when they reach regionals

!!Next Year
Nationals take place the year after Sectionals and Regionals. How does this work when the Seniors who participated in Regionals graduate? How is that fair? In ''Glee'', they pretty much do two song preformances a week at minimum, and towards the end of season 1 they set up a completely new set two or three times hardly a week before Regionals, one of them starting ''less than a day before the competition'', so is it so impossible for them to have two competitions per semester, or a fall competition, a late winter competition, and a late spring competition?
* From how I understand, Nationals is actually a few months after Regionals (in real world time anyway). Not that it matters because the Glee club isn't ''going'' to Nationals. So... what exactly is it that bugs you about this?
** I was (and still am) under the impression that Nationals was part of the next school year. Whether or not New Directions goes is irrelevant to the problem of Nationals taking place after the best (usually the best and/or most practiced, at least) members of the clubs that passed Regionals have graduated. All of the competition clubs I've seen in real life, and the one I've been in, had their highest-level competitions at the end of the same school year in which they had their lowest-level competitions.
*** Then why are you under the impression that it happens differently in Glee?
**** Will told the kids to take the summer off, giving the misleading impression that Regionals happened at the end of the year. And since the episode aired when most schools ''would'' be getting out, it just cemented that impression. There are probably a few more weeks for them, during which Nationals would occur at some time.
***** He told them to take the summer off and not have to worry about practicing and all of that because New Directions isn't going to Nationals. They have nothing to practice or worry about until next year's Sectionals.
*** I got the impression that the back nine were supposed to pick up not too long after the fall finale (and certainly not the four months it was between episodes). While ''Journey'' takes was aired in early June, it probably took place in late March / early April. This is based on Quinn giving birth about a month premature (I think that's what was said, correct me if I'm wrong). That would give the winner of Regionals ample time to prepare for Nationals, which probably take place in late June.

!!What Is Wrong With a Celibacy Club?
Ok, this is pretty old news, but its been bugging me since I saw the episode.

1.Rachel gives this entire speech on how celibacy doesn't work and how teaching abstinence only is dumb. But it is the celibacy CLUB. C-L-U-B. No one (except possibly their parents) is forcing them to join this club. If it was Health class and they were only teaching abstinence, then fine, whatever. But her putting down the club is like saying that ANYTHING telling kids they need to just wait is terrible. From my experience with these clubs, they are usually only support groups for teens who wait till marriage. [[SarcasmMode THE EVIL.]]

2. Rachel says that teaching only abstinence is bad because kids can't help themselves and will have sex, and need to know how to protect themselves. That's all well and good...but do they seriously think that school is the only way kids learn how to protect themselves? Thing is, my school system teaches only abstinence, and I, someone who is actually waiting until marriage, have known how to put on a condom since I was twelve. How? Curiosity, Wikipedia, and teen magazines. Seriously, its not that difficult to figure out. Its not like schools could be allowed to tell you more than the internet or CosmoGIRL would.
** There was a time when schools ''could'' give frank discussions of sex and how to avoid STD's and pregnancy but...let's not get political here.
** It was RuleOfFunny, and and extreme parodies of it. She wasn't giving the rant because the school refuses to teach stuff other than abstinence, it was because the club was ''insane'' and refused to even discuss the idea that sexual intercourse isn't the devil.
* It's ''Rachel'' who gives the speech. She has the ''need'' to be the center of attention, and she did it in this instance by being controverial. Plus, let's not forget she wanted to boink Finn, who was also in the club and ''listening to her''.
** Yes, but every single entry on this site is about how the speech is an intentional TakeThat at the terrible abstinence movement, not just Rachel being herself. I'm just wondering why its such a bad thing that there is a club teaching abstinence in the first place. Sure, the club IS insane...but that club is obviously a StrawmanPolitical figure representing the AM. Schools should be able to talk about sex, because not all students have personal or religious reasons for deciding to stay abstinent. But for those of us that do, why is it such a bad thing to form a club supporting that? Believe it or not, we're not all crazy right-wing religious extremists. Some of us are just people who think its better to wait.
* Regarding the whole thing with the chastity club, there isn't much to indicate that most of the characters took it seriously. Quinn did appear to take it seriously, but did end up breaking her vow because I guess she got caught up in the moment, and Jacob seemed to take it seriously until Rachel gave her little speech. But other than that, it was kind of clear that the club was just an excuse for the cheerleaders and football players to hang out with each other.

!! Shelby.
Okay, I understand that the Aesop of ''Theatricality'' was that [[spoiler:you shouldn't expect finding out about or meeting your bio-parents to be a wholly positive experience,]] but the way the whole thing plays out, are the audience really meant to believe that it will turn out as badly as it did [[spoiler:for Rachel meeting her birth mom?]] For starters, [[spoiler:Shelby decides that she and Rachel should part mere days after the reunion that she initiated before they've even had a chance to talk about it like Rachel suggested that they do by going to dinner. She does this at the behest of Will, someone she barely knows and therefore can't guarantee that he has either of their best interests at heart, instead of say, Rachel's dads, whom she would have presumably got to know over the course of the pregnancy.]] Then in ''Journey'' [[spoiler:we see that, because Shelby is too upset about having Rachel being an almost-adult who doesn't need her, she's going to move on with her life and start going for things that she actually wants, while shutting Rachel out. She doesn't even tell Rachel to watch out for the fibroids or whatever it was that necessitated her motive-producing surgery.]]

Also, a somewhat more minor nitpick: [[spoiler:given Shelby's experience of surrogate motherhood, wouldn't she be more likely to suggest an open adoption to Quinn and Puck?]]
[[folder: "Spoilered"? Characters.]]
!! The upcoming fundie Christian character.

I know we haven't even seen her yet, and I should probably be reserving judgment for her until we do - and I intend to give her a chance - but what's been revealed about her so far [[UnfortunateImplications really doesn't sit well with me]]. Ryan Murphy said he's adding a fundie Christian to represent "the right wing", since he's made jabs at it before - so another group of people can feel represented - but the character in question is going to be prudish and homophobic. Anyone prudish frankly stopped watching this show after the raunchy second episode, and anyone homophobic likely gave up after the forth (if not after the first). Considering he's also promised a gay romance between Kurt and a football jock next season, I highly doubt the homophobes will decide they can tolerate the show now that they've got someone "representing them". The kind of Christians/conservatives who stuck with Glee and enjoy it are NOT the same kind as the character seems to be, and they're by and large probably not going to feel represented by a bigot - or appreciate the generalization that all Christians/conservatives are predjuidiced (for proof, check out all the offended comments [[http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/47433409.html here]]). Finally, what bothers me the most is that she's going to be well-loved - the other characters are supposed to like her, respect her and even befriend her. Is Kurt going to be one of these characters? Is he going to respect a girl who the writers have explicitly stated will not respect him solely because he's gay? Are we going to have to watch as Tina, Artie, Quinn, Finn and (God forbid) Mercedes befriend someone who is openly predjuidiced against their friend? I just don't like the sound of this at all.
* As an extremely liberal Christian, I winced a little when I first heard about this character, but I can't deny that there are people like that out there. I'm withholding judgement until I actually see her.
* Christians are taught to hate the sin and love the sinner. It would be perfectly realistic for this character to be a sweet girl who genuinely cares about Kurt and sees it as her duty to "save" him. So unless she gets really pushy, I can see the others still being friends with her; it's possible to disagree with someone completely on one issue and still like them overall.
** Yeah, you're right - I know that's true in real life. I guess it just bothers me in the context of the show. Homophobia has not only never been condoned on the show previously, but it's been flatly condemned from the beginning; the only homophobic characters on the show are generic one-dimensional school bullies (except for Puck, but he's supposed to be a {{Jerkass}} - and even HE comes around and defends Kurt from the aforementioned bullies with the rest of the Glee club at the end of Theatricality!), Finn has to go out of his way to repent for one instance of homophobic language when provoked, etc. It just seems to contradict everything the show has preached before about tolerance to have an intolerant character be portrayed in a positive light. The entire Glee club came together to defend Kurt from bullies who were obviously homophobic before - but now they're going to accept someone who is openly predjuidiced against him as a friend? That just seems like discontinuity.
*** Honestly, my fear is that she's going to come off as a StrawMan and an intentional scrappy. As argued about in the Kurt/Finn confrontation, my biggest fear is that her only purpose will be to learn {{Anvilicious}} Aesops.
*** Saying that ''{{Glee}}'' condones homophobia because it has a sympathetic character who doesn't approve of homosexuality is like saying that it condones having unprotected sex with your boyfriend's best friend because Quinn isn't a CompleteMonster. Practically every character on this show has done at least one truly atrocious thing, but every one of them comes off as sympathetic at least once in a while (unless you count the jocks who aren't in glee). Creating good rolemodels clearly isn't a priority for Ryan Murphy.
**** You're right. I was wrong to say the show would start condoning homophobia, and I don't want this character (or any other) to be written as a CompleteMonster. I just don't like what I've heard about her. Ryan Murphy may not feel the need to write characters who make good role models, but he most certainly seems to enjoy creating offensively stereotyped {{Anvilicious}} ones. He says this girl is going to be very vocal about her opinions, and that she'll be respected...and the only opinions of hers he's disclosed so far are "sex is bad" and "no homo". Add Murphy's tendency for {{Anvilicious}}ness, the statement that this character will speak her mind and another statement he's made that she and Kurt will "butt heads" frequently, and one really gets the impression her homophobia will be a major facet of her character. And, I don't know, maybe you [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation read these characters differently]], but I can't picture a lot of the Glee club befriending a girl who is really openly predjuidiced against Kurt - especially after everyone came together to defend him from that same predjudice. But then again, writing this has made me realize how little I know about this character to base my judgements on. I guess I should stop going on about this. [[ItJustBugsMe It just bugged me]].
***** Maybe she'll have a reason for being that way - one of her parents could be a Ted Hagard {{Expy}} but, then again [[spoiler:wasn't that territory covered with Quinn's dad? "Tatooed Freak" sounded more like Judy was referring to her husband cheating on her with a man rather than a woman.]] I think the most likely way it could play out is that they'll all like her at first and then she'll stay some stuff, we'll get our aesop and [[StatusQuoIsGod the plot will carry on like it never even happened.]] They could at least use it as an opportunity for Kurt's boyfriend to stick up for him and start off/develop their relationship. I'm all for speculating at the moment but I'm with you guys as far as saving judgement for later goes.
***** There's a difference between saying, "I believe that homosexuality is a sin, so I'm going to quote the Bible at you until you see the light," and saying, "I think that homosexuality is disgusting, so I'm going to beat the crap out of you." It makes sense for the glee kids to respond to this girl differently than they did to the homophobes on the football team.
***** I do think that there is at least some potential for this to actually be good. Instead of being the sort of standard GayAesop conveyed by the whole show that [[AndThatsTerrible HOMOPHOBIA IS BAD!]] it could be something along the lines of "It's hard not to feel upset by the people who treat you with the same kindness and decency as would anyone else until they find out you're gay. They might not want to beat you up but they don't see as just another person anymore."
****** ...so you think Kurt's friends in the Glee club (say, Mercedes or Tina) will be more receptive to this character because, instead of pushing him into lockers, she's telling him he "won't inherit the kingdom of God"? Personally, I just...can't see that - and personally, I'd rather someone punch me in the face than tell me something congenital to me needs to be "corrected" and that he/she refuses to accept me until it is (and can totally help with that). Kurt's been shown to be the same way, too - notice how he gets overly (almost hysterically) upset in Laryngitis, when he mistakenly thinks his dad views his sexuality as a "problem"/something that's wrong with him, but how, at the end of Theatricality, when the football bullies are advancing on him, he says, "Go ahead. Hit me. I won't change". Yes, there may be a difference between homophobia for religious reasons and homophobia for social reasons, but...homophobia is homophobia. It is "the same predjuidice" - I don't think my wording was wrong. The only character who seems like she'd cut this character slack because she's religious is Quinn, and Quinn is friends with Kurt, now. Half the Glee club is friends with him, if you count Brittany, and everyone else has stood up for him - and not just Kurt has reason to take personal offense to her homophobia (Rachel has two dads, and Murphy's considering having Brittany and Santana kiss on-screen in an upcoming episode). Furthermore, it's been said that this new girl and Kurt will "butt heads" a lot - which implies Kurt will be as vocal about his feelings as she will be, so the other characters will KNOW how hurt/offended he is. Yes, it is possible to be friends with someone despite finding them to have an unsavory quality or two, but this seems like a pretty big "despite"; I may be going out on a limb with some of the conclusions I've drawn about this character we haven't seen yet, but I think it's pretty safe to say her homophobia is going to be a major facet of her character. But anyway, while I'm already ranting incessantly, I read some of the spoilers disclosed at Comic Con just recently, and one of them was that there's going to be a religion-themed episode where [[spoiler:Mercedes takes Kurt to sing with her at her church]]. Two of my main concerns about this character were that the (all-too-common) message that faith and homosexuality are incompatible was going to be reinforced, and that she embodied the "(seriously) religious/conservative people are intolerant" generalization. Both of those were pretty much entirely dispelled by that news - so I apologize for jumping the gun as I did, and I'm especially embarassed at having said the show was going to start condoning homophobia, since that just obviously would never happen. My only still standing complains are that no-one still watching the show will feel "represented" by this character (which I think is true, but almost every other character is a stereotype, too, so that wasn't a big one) and that I cannot see the other characters befriending her realistically - which [[ItJustBugsMe still bugs me]], and I just tried to explain why. If you still don't see why it does...well, this page isn't strictly for rational, justified complaints, is it?
***** This Troper first got interested in Glee BECAUSE it was a riot seeing so many cliches and stereotypes all thrown into highschool with musical numbers. The stereotyped homophobic, anti-contraception and anti-sex before marriage, is just as valid as CampGay Kurt, JerkJock Puck, or DumbBlonde Brittany. In the end Glee is a DRAMA/Comedy, they nicely subverted homophobic "have you tried not being gay" father stereotype in Burt, but what writer could pass up a nice dose of [[{{Gayngst}} homophobia]] from a minority who are stereotyped for being homophobic?!
* This Troper isn't sure exactly why this new character even exists when Quinn, a conservative Christian, has been around since the first episode. Several times, she has provided the right-wing side to things, with her sometimes coming across as sympathetic and sometimes not. It's never been stated how she feels about Kurt's sexuality, but the show could go either way. Have a scene where she is openly disapproving and deal with the tension that causes within the group, especially in regards to Mercedes, who is a close friend to both Kurt and Quinn, as well as a Christian who has no issues with his sexuality, or have a scene where Quinn voices her support for him. In the latter case, have a scene with her mother or or one of the homophobic bullies where she defends her support.
[[/folder]]


!! An all-BritneySpears episode? Seriously?
I know that, like the above troper, I'm ranting about something that I haven't seen yet, but ''why?'' Nevermind the fact that Glee is batting 1-1 with their tribute episodes (the one about Lady Gaga fit in with the characters and the story and was even funny, but the Madonna episode turned everyone into raving lunatics and had next to no relevance to the plot). Nevermind that the artists chosen for these tributes are nothing more than a CampGay man's wet dream. When are we gonna get a tribute episode from the ''guys''' point of view?

* Ryan Murphy said there's going to be another tribute episode (the one airing after the Super Bowl); that one might pay tribute to a male band/artist.
** Murphy's had the rights the entire Billy Joel catalog since episode one first aired, so that would make the most sense. YMMV on whether or not that makes up for a BritneySpears episode.
* Two things:
** One, Theatricality was not just about Lady Gaga, since Finn complained on-screen to Schuester that none of the guys (save Kurt) wanted to do Gaga, they did KISS instead.
** Second, the Madonna episode also served the plot; it introduced the virginity plot and put Kurt and Mercedes in the Cheerios (which got a ResetButton for Mercedes at the end of the next episode, but Kurt went on to win Nationals), we'll have to trust the writers with the Spears episode and the other tribute.

!! Where's the Disney episode?
Madonna. Lady Gaga. Britteny Spears. Theme episodes are everywhere...and yet they aren't doing a theme episode of the most obvious collection of over the top musical numbers? I ''know'' I'm not the only one who thinks this would be a good idea. My life will NOT be complete until Will sings [[{{Mulan}} "Make a Man Out of You"]]!
* Much as I love the idea to bits, doing so would in actual fact be involving a lot more people than a single mainstream singer, yes? Because there are so many movies, and several different sets of singers and songwriters and everything. So I'm not an expert on copyright law, but it might happen.
** Factor in that MANY lyricists and composers for Disney songs are dead, and that rights for certain songs have reverted to estates/spouses/children, getting a broad enough spectrum of Disney songs to include in just one episode of Glee alone would be ridiculously expensive, damn near impossible, or would take so much time that the episode would have to go into production NOW to air in the third season.
*** Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's how copyright works in the US. I'm pretty sure the ''only'' copyright holders will be Disney themselves. If what you are saying is true, then something like Kingdom Hearts would be damn near impossible to make and no highschools could ever put on Disney shows (which mine does).
*** Poster of the copyright stuff here. The songs are in a different category than the characters of Disney. To use an example, Disney owns the rights to The Lion King characters. Disney can license the use of their characters and likenesses freely. The music of The Lion King is: a) written by Elton John and Bernie Taupin, b) released through Hollywood Records, and c) concievably part of the Disney music library. Glee would need permission from all three of these entities. If they planned on doing a just-Lion King episode, that would be relatively easy. Now imagine that they want a song from Cinderella, written by four people, two of which dead (thus meaning we must deal with estates), Disney, and whoever else has a claim in the song. To my recollection, the Disney shows are licensed by Disney, and Disney has covered all the respective copyrights for the songs herein. (Again, if the shows are for one Disney film/TV show, deals are made much easier.) And addressing Kingdom Hearts, correct me if I'm wrong (not very familiar with it), but the soundtrack only has a few select Disney songs being used as scores?
* I highly doubt Disney would give the rights to their child-friendly songs to a show as raunchy as ''{{Glee}}''.
** Are we forgetting the Disneyworld episode of ''{{Roseanne}}''?! Where Darlene's baby was conceived? Disney doesn't shy away from this stuff.
** The problem is more that Disney owns ABC, which is a rival network to Fox.
** Network rivalry becomes moot when Tivo and Hulu let you watch whatever you want whenever. The sheer ''money'' Disney could make off royalties from [=iTunes=] and a CD release should make this a possibility. Sue singing "[[LionKing Be Prepared]]"? Santana singing "[[TheLittleMermaid Poor Unfortunate Souls]]"? Kurt and his future boyfriend singing "[[{{Aladdin}} Whole New World?]]" Yes please!
*** I highly doubt Fox is going to make episodes and songs that can only be seen on Hulu. Hell, I highly doubt Fox would want to share the royalties with one of their competitors when they have a good cash cow going all for themselves. A disney episode just is not gonna happen.
**** Already happened as Hulu is a joint venture of Fox, ABC(Disney), and NBC. That said, there probably still won't be big ticket Hulu only stuff and generally, Hulu tends to get things on a huge delay anyway so that first-sale markets (TV, concerts,etc) get their goodies first.
!! Male homosexuality = long, in-depth and wonderful plotline. Female homo/bisexuality & polyamorous relationship = couple cuddly shots and throwaway lines. Discuss.
Twitch. Twitch. Twitch. Twitch. Twitch. On the other hand, we're supposed to see more of Brittany's character in Season 2, so perhaps salvation will arrive.
* Brittany and Santana were originally intended to be background characters who sit around and do funny things sometimes. It was only after Brittany became an EnsembleDarkhorse that her relationship with Santana began to be developed, and they've been gradually receiving more screentime as the show goes on. Also, they both seem to be comfortable in their sexuality so there isn't as much potential for drama there like with Kurt, who has incidentally been a main character from the very beginning. Not seeing a problem here.
* Ryan Murphy just recently said Brittany and Santana will kiss on-screen in an upcoming episode (and possibly do "more" - though I personally doubt that'll happen), too; so presumably their relationship is going to be focused on more.
** Am I the only one who feels bothered at the idea of them kissing and doing possibly "more" on screen? Before I sound like a troll, I would be happy to see a well-developed lesbian/bisexual/polyamorous/whatever-they-are relationship on TV. But I don't think Glee will be able to do that. Brittany and Santana come off as "gay for your enjoyment," more like porno lesbians than anything else. If they kiss on screen, I feel like it won't be taken seriously at all, or will be played as a joke. Do the writers seriously know nothing about how lesbians or bisexual girls get treated in high school? If they ever kissed and were seen by anyone, they would almost DEFINITELY be the subject of bullying. There's plenty of drama to be had in Santana and Brittany being "found out" and sticking up for themselves, but somehow I doubt that would happen.
** I highly doubt they'd be bullied. [[LesYay Two attractive cheerleaders]], one of which was a short-lived Head Cheerleader, and both essentially a step below Quinn as queens of the school,[[GirlOnGirlIsHot dating each other?]] The worse they might get are some chauvinistic comments or cat calls. More than likely they'd be celebrated and [[ADateWithRosiePalms fap-fodder]] for people like Jacob. Does it really seem likely that anyone would be [[TooDumbToLive suicidal]] to mess with two of [[JerkAss Sue]] [[MagnificentBastard Sylvester's]] most trusted Cheerios? Besides, other than the two JerkJock bullies, the school doesn't seem to have a problem with Kurt's homosexuality, but the fact that he's on the bottom of the social ladder (other than the occasional insult aimed at him). I think they could set the episode up to explore the DoubleStandard there is toward homosexuality. As long as it's played respectfully and not for {{Fanservice}}, it could be a good episode.
*** I guess what I'm saying is, I can't see it being played as much other than {{Fanservice}}, or even if it is done seriously, some {{fanservice}} is definitely going to be employed. It just seems a shame. Also, what do you mean by "explore the DoubleStandard there is toward homosexuality"? I guess I'm kind of confused as to what DoubleStandard you're talking about. "If you're already popular, it's okay"? "It's easier to be homosexual if you're attractive"? "People don't take lesbians seriously and instead see them as fap fodder"?
*** Mostly GirlOnGirlIsHot, while two guys is {{Squick}} and "wrong", but I see what you're saying. Also, life ''tends'' to be easier for popular/attractive people.
* It's down to the characters in this situation. Kurt is one of the core six who have been in the club since the Pilot, and can probably be considered the fifth main character (after Will, Rachel, Finn, and Sue). As such, he gets a lot more screen time than Santana and Brittany, and much more in depth storylines. Another reason the female bisexuality is played differently is that one of the participants is ''Brittany.'' The girl is a walking fountain of non sequiter one-liners, and the comedy is central to her character. Giving Brittany a serious storyline wouldn't work unless it was built toward very slowly. Finally, Kurt's drama revolves around him being openly gay and there being no one he can relate to. Santana is very obviously denying her bisexuality, and Brittany is known to sleep with anything that moves (I believe she once said she made out with her cat?). Santana is making sure that Brittany doesn't tell anyone, and Brittany is obviously in love with Santana so she complies. No one knows, therefore no drama.


!!With so many male cheerleaders, how can Kurt be the only gay boy at McKinley High?
Okay, just to be clear, I'm not stereotyping, just making a joke. [[DFarrey This troper]] is gay, so I understand gay=/=into "girly" things.
* There probably are, but Kurt is, in his own words, the only '''openly''' gay boy in school or even in town. With the amount of homophobia in town, I'm not surprise if everyone else decides it's far safely to remain in the closet. And regarding the male cheerleader thing, they can probably claim they joined to ogle the female cheerleaders constantly.
** Agreed. Statistically, there are probably several gay guys at McKinley, and not just on the cheerleading squad. The key word in situations like these is "openly".
* See above as well. Who would risk incurring Sue's wrath by doing anything to any one of her Cheerios? While probably not for everyone, ironically, Sue's Cheerios may be one of the few places were you'd be safe from abuse (that wasn't from Sue anyway).

!! Why are all the Glee kids only from one grade? Why don't any seniors, or freshmen or sophomores join? Surely there must be some other student who isn't a junior that likes to sing.
* Because they don't want to deal with being foced to split up the group once the senior one is supposed to graduate.

[[folder: Artie]]
!!Artie
People are always saying that he is a sympathetic character, and he is to an extent, but some of the things he does are annoying and/or completely uncalled for. This Troper would have to say the moment that solidified this frame of mind for me was Episode 19. In the scene where he tries to walk, he says that Tina pushed him to do that, basically saying that it was her fault for him believing in himself. Now, I will grant that Tina got his hopes up, but he was the one who had those hopes to begin with, and he was the one who took it to the extreme, not her. All in all, I found it uncalled for. And then, there's is complete lack of respect for Tina as a person, always calling her 'woman' and treating her like she's a part of his life that he could give or take. This is obviously not the case seeing as he has an obvious crush on her. There are a few other places where I haven't found Artie enjoyable at all, but these are the moments that really stuck out to me. In this Troper's opinion, Artie's vices outweigh his virtues just a little bit too much for my liking. And Tina's too, apparently. I completely support her moving on to Mike.
* I have to defend two points you made here. First, where he tries to walk. Of ''course'' he overreacted and blamed her. You have to remember that when people are as emotional as he was at that point (He's been in a wheelchair for years, unable to do plenty of things that everyone else can do, and the one time he gets to do something resembling walking, he just falls down again) don't think rationally, and often just want someone to blame. We all do that when something traumatic or sad happens to us. 2. Calling her "woman." The only time I remember him using that is when he's joking. My friends call me woman sometimes. Its not meant to be taken seriously. I agree that some of his behavior in say, The Power of Madonna was ridiculous (but really. Was there a character that ''wasn't'' OOC in that episode?) but usually, yes, he is sympathetic.
* Completely agree with the OP here. I mean, when Tina broke up with him she says "You're a terrible boyfriend, you ignored me for weeks this summer!" And how does he respond? "I was playing a marathon round of Halo, woman!" Tina then points out to Artie that he has no interest in what SHE is interested in. And of course instead of actually learning to care about her feelings, what does Artie do? He tries to get abs.
** It doesn't help that that's the message she sent him to begin with, "Why can't we talk about things I care about? Like his abs!" Combine that with the fact that she pretty much jumped on Mike while he was dancing at camp (while she and Artie were presumably still dating since she wasn't shown actually breaking up with him until they were back in school). Futhermore we're never told during ''what'' weeks he "ignored" her. If it was during the time she was away at camp then her accusation is hardly fair and a shoddy justification for cheating on him. So far there has been no evidence that her attraction to Mike is ''anything'' but physical and I ''know'' Artie isn't perfect, and I love Mike, I really do, but at least Artie has an actual personality other than "being pretty and a good dancer," and that's ''exactly'' what Tina fell for.
** So what? Whether or not Tina moved on, the fact still stands that she should have dumped Artie, and that is ''specifically'' what I'm talking about, so think of this with Mike out of the general picture. Had Tina been at camp the weeks that Artie didn't call he would have probably ''said'' that she was a camp instead of saying how he was playing Halo. And just because Tina ''might'' be a bad girlfriend, that doesn't excuse Artie for the way he acts, or make her any less right in dumping him. Actually, I ''am'' going to bring up Mike, because even if all he has going for him is "looking pretty and being a good dancer," as you say it, he's still going to be a better boyfriend than Artie because Artie was a selfish boyfriend, and having almost no good things and nothing bad going for you is better than having a few good things and a few bad things going for you. I mean really, what ''does'' Artie actually have going for him? He can sing and play guitar, which is about equal with being pretty and a good dancer. Tina was also friends with both before she started dating them so even though you don't see it on screen, Mike DOES have a personality. Actually, from what you're saying it sounds like you're saying Tina is in the wrong to break up with Artie. Why? Why is it so wrong to break up with a boyfriend who acts like a jerk towards you in favor of a guy who doesn't?
** Part of the problem is that she was sucking Mike's face ''before'' she broke up with Artie, which is still pretty cruel. Furthermore we don't ''know'' that Mike isn't a jerk, we don't know ''anything'' about him at all other than he's on the football team, he's asian, he's a good dancer, and he's good looking. Artie does have his flaws but at least he's a fully-developed character with good ''and'' bad traits. Mike, by comparison has as much personality as the Brad the piano player, he's just kind of ''there.'' On top of all this we know ''why'' she broke up with Artie, but we don't know why she likes Mike, other than the fact that he's a good dancer and he's pretty ''and that's it.'' The evidence presented in the show itself suggests that her attraction to Mike is purely physical and that's why is seems shallow to some people.
*** Actually, we don't know for certain that Tina cheated on Artie. That quick scene of them making out in front of their campers could have just been what Artie ''imagined'' happened. That's pretty over-the-top behavior, even for ''Glee''. And I didn't get the impression that the scene between Tina and Artie in the cafeteria was the actual break-up; he might have just come up to her and said something like, "I still don't understand why you dumped me."
** ''"Part of the problem is that she was sucking Mike's face ''before'' she broke up with Artie"'' I'm sorry, but that doesn't excuse ''Artie's'' actions, this is a Just Bugs Me about ''Artie'' and how ''he'' is a bad boyfriend. Regardless of what Tina has done Artie was ''still'' a bad boyfriend. Don't use Tina's faults to excuse Artie's. Can you ''honestly'' tell me that if Artie treated Tina like she deserved and payed attention to her and her needs, that she would have cheated on him with Mike? Was Tina cheating on Artie wrong? Yes. Does that mean she's not allowed to dump him? No. Does that excuse Artie from being a bad boyfriend who kinda deserved to be dumped? No. STOP USING TINA'S FAULTS TO DEFEND ARTIE. Regardless of Tina's actions, Artie was still a bad boyfriend. Do you get it or do I need to repeat myself for the thousandth time (because guess what? I've already said this ''five times''.)
* The Brittney/Artie part of Duet is kind of hurting Atrie's rep as a sympathetic character for me. He completely blows Brittney off without giving her any chance to give her side of the story (and he can't have been ignorant of her sexual history before he slept with her). About the only way I could see this as reasonable is if Artie was supposed to be completely lacking in self confidence and therefore primed to believe Santana's story, but lacking in confidence hasn't really been a big part of Artie's personality so far.
* This being glee , is likely a very cynical desconstruction of "pair the spares" and/or "nerdy guy dating hot girl", manly: OF COURSE Artie would be a bad boyfriend, his confidence is just a mask of his social ineptude. He is simpathetic character because of his flaws, he isn't outright malicious, but neither is perfect just like everyone in this show[[/folder]]

!!Mischaracterization in Season 2, Episode 1
Some of the {{Flanderization}} made sense, in a twisted sort of way (Rachel's insecurity when anyone even remotely threatens her standing, Artie had mentioned playing a lot of {{Halo}} at least once before [though a week-long match was far more than pushing it]), but a lot of it went beyond Flanderization into what seemed an internal case of CowboyBebopAtHisComputer (Schuster teaming up with Sue for immature pranks [late season 1, and in fact much of Season 1, showed why he would nearly never team up with Sue, among [[YourMileageMayVary other things]]], Artie acting the way he did at the beginning of "The Power Of Madonna" [which was out of character in the first place, based on every other Season 1 episode]).

!!Finn and Double Standards
This is major YourMileageMayVery but it's always struck me that, setting up the parents aside, Finn was just as bad as Kurt in his prusuit of Rachel, as Kurt was in his prusuit of Finn. He sung "Jeese's Girl" at Glee and Rachel was obviously uncomfortable about it, when Rachel told him no, she wasn't going to date him because he wasted his shot with her to protect him, which is something he never said to Kurt (though I think part of it was he just didn't realize what Kurt had a crush on him until "Theatricality") he flat out told her that he was going to continue to pursue her. While he didn't know she was in a relationship with Jesse when he said that, he deffiantly knew when he sung "Jesse's Girl." He knew Rachel still had feelings for him, and he was using that in order to get her back. Not to mention the time during he basically seduced her in order to get her back in Glee while he was still dating Quinn, albiet for reasons other than romance, which actually makes it worse. To top it off there's always been a sexual tension between the two as well. So really, the only thing that sets Finn's behavior and Kurt's behavior apart is that Rachel returned Finn's feelings, but wasn't acting on them due to self-respect and being with, and enjoying being Jesse at the time.

!!Story Telling
Or how it's told. So much happens off screen that we can only guess at, and when some things are adressed it's five or so episodes down the road.

[[folder:Britney/Brittany]]
!!Will's whole plotline in Britney/Brittany
Emma says "I never wanted you to change who you were, I just wanted you to loosen up a little, Will!" What? That has nothing to do with anything! She dumped him because he was cavorting with other women and wasn't ready for a relationship. The sad thing is, things coming out of nowhere like that are an extremely common occurence on the show! Can they please hire another writer? Someone who has a basic understanding of how basic storytelling and suspension of disbelief actually works?
** Agreed. If my memory is correct, Will was trying to get ''her'' to loosen up.
** Granted, I was busy playing BirthBySleep while watching this episode, but the way I understood it was that Will had ''become'' more uptight and stressed lately with the realities of his life finally hitting him, his divorce with Terry (now a full blown [[LoveMakesYouEvil psycho ex]]), losing even more of his budget to Beiste, and losing Emma, who was getting concerned that Will needed to relax before he blew his brains out. I'll have to give it a second viewing, though.
** Huh... I think that Emma was being specific about this episode, meaning that she wasn't just talking they relatioship, the advice was more friend-to-friend than potential-love-interest-to-potential-love-interest

!!Tina orgasming over Britney Spears
(Blank stare) Even Hot Topic goths (which I think we can agree Tina is) would avoid Britney like the plague. While I can't picture her being gung ho about Christopher Cross either, her loving Britney came way out of nowhere, and you'd think she'd be right there with Will that they do something else.
* Not everyone who likes goth fashion also adopts the stereotypical goth personality--there's even [[PerkyGoth a trope for that.]] Tina got into Glee by singing "I Kissed a Girl", for crying out loud. Is Katy Perry any more goth than Britney Spears?
* How Britney is different of Madonna or Lady Gaga? Tina was ok-to-delighted performing those songs.
** The difference is that while Madona came into play before the generation of teens in Glee were born and Lady Gaga is coming into play now, Brittany came into play as I (and the characters of Glee, and probably a lot of people who were watching the show) were growing up. I mean, when I was growing up I would hear my classmates say ''horrible'' things about Brittany, about how she got a boob job, or how much of a slut she was, anyone would have to be mental to listen to her music because Brittany had such a bad reputation. If Madona had that sort of reputation, the talk would have died out by now, and Lady Gaga's bad rep is generally based on lies or things that are really just opinion. To sum it up it's really just that Brittany is seen as a slut.
*** Technically speaking, Britney also came into play before the generation in glee. Rachel gave her birth as 1994, which means that Britney was huge when she was 2. None of the teens is said to be too much older or younger, so they were being born, or were like, 4 tops when Britney hit the stands. LAter, they would have only know her either as has-been, or got into her old record and become cult fans of her. And pretty much all the gleeks have been shown to be outcasts before, so even if everyone told them they were "mental" for listening(and liking) her music, is not like they would care. In their eyes, she would not be worse than Madonna, who, like every other artist has been the subject of rumours and stuff.
**** Speaking as a Troper born in 1993, I was singing Oops, I Did It Again in kindergarden. I had Britney fatigue before I was old enough to listen to her other songs, and her worsening reputation didn't help. I don't mind listening to her every once in a while, but I definitely wouldn't consider her strong, a good role model, or even a particularly good singer.

!!Rachel testing Finn's fidelity via Quinn in season 2, episode 2
It really doesn't make sense given, you know, ''Finn'' dumped ''Quinn'' in the first place.
* Throughout all of Season 1, Finn's loyalty to whomever he was dating is specifically shown to be tenuous at best. He cheats on Quinn with Rachel in the first episode, and is tempted by her several times after that. He cheats on Rachel with Brittany and Santana, and loses his virginity to Santana even though he says that he still has feelings for Rachel. Rachel's testing him by having Quinn hit on him in the same way she and Santana got him to stray before - just walking right up to him and asking. This time is remarkable only because he said 'no thanks.'
** He didn't cheat on Rachel, they had broken up at the time.
** It makes sense if you realise that Rachel isn't just afraid that he cheats on her but that he chooses popularity over her.
*** Or for the matter, that -she's- just that insecure and possessive. That's what little she's finally got, she's afraid of losing. It doesn't have to be rational, just emotional.
* I felt this scene lost its impact by how it was written and acted. It could have worked but it was played more like Finn said no because dating Quinn would hurt him too much rather than that he's committed to Rachel. Plus when Quinn's talking to Rachel it seems like the whole thing really upset her too. Rachel already was coming off as a DesignatedHero JerkAss in this episode anyway and this just cranked it up to 11 by having her bring up old wounds.

!! The complete lack of plot in this episode at all!
* The first half hour was just recreating Britney videos including an AWFUL rendition of Hit Me Baby One More Time. Then Rachel wearing the exact same outfit she wears every episode but with her stomach hanging out suddenly makes her super hot? Or the fact that they devoted so much time to Jacob masturbating (including the sex riot scene where the one good Britney cover is pushed to the background so we can instead hear him jizz his pants). Or that Sue has severely injured herself and is completely healed by the next episode?
** Totally agreed. Some of the covers were good, but this has got to be my least favorite episode so far. The CharacterDerailment (not only with Will, but Kurt was never ''that'' much of a jackass to be so disrespectful to Will), the [[MushroomSamba flimsy excuse]] to recreate Britney videos, [[FanDisservice seeing Jacob naked]], etc. The only thing this ep did to advance the overarching plot was show Artie joining the football team.
*** While I agree this was the worst episode of this show yet, I thought Kurt's yelling at Will (while being disrespectful and uncalled for) was almost a [[CrowningMomentOfAwesome Crowning Moment Of Awesome]]
**** I don't see how. I think the point of Will's lesson was to get the kids to consider the music in genres they're not used to, and Kurt spends the whole time bitching about not singing Britney.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Grilled Cheesus]]
!!In Grilled Cheesus, lighting a candle in a hospital room where oxygen is in use.
TelevisionIsTryingToKillUs. Kurt, clearly the OnlySaneMan, did the reasonable thing and blew it out. Then again, he also thought that [[YouFailBiologyForever acupuncture would get his dad out of a coma.]]
* He thought the acupuncture would help his dad's circulation, which would increase the flow of blood to his dad's brain, which would get his dad out of a coma. Which is scientifically sound. Also, [[http://www.springerlink.com/content/x1867532142350l5/ clinical]] [[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16334716 studies]] have shown that acupuncture can help people get out of coma's faster. Above Troper DidNotDoTheResearch.
* I thought that the acupuncture was for Kurt to try and de-stress.
* I'm pretty sure blowing out the candle was a symbolic gesture rather than common sense. I mean, Kurt is only as smart as the writers can make him and these writers...well...probably wouldn't hesitate take a candle into a hospital room themselves. And Kurt did say the acupuncture was for his father. Though the weirdness of Kurt believing in acupuncture was probably another mistake on the writer's part.
* It seems more like Kurt was willing to try anything (except prayer) to save his dad.
* A nasal aspirator doesn't put out enough oxygen flow to do anything but make a candle burn very fast, and that would be if it was completely disconnected from Burt's face and feeding directly towards the flame. The only way the oxygen would have exploded would be if Kurt suddenly decided to hold the candle against the tank for a very long time, or to turn the oxygen on full blast and disconnect the aspirator, neither of which he seemed inclined to do. Yes, it probably wasn't incredibly wise, but it wasn't exactly a ticking time bomb.

!!Finn's prayers in "Grilled Cheesus"
If Finn was so upset about Burt, then why the heck didn't he pray for Grilled Cheesus to save him?
** Finn was too busy using his prayer as his "Genie in the Bottle." That and he was holding the IdiotBall the ENTIRE episode.
*** That's pretty much the entire point, Finn completely misuderstands religion and the idea of prayer in general.

!!"Only the Good Die Young" is not a religious song.
It's about telling a girl to give up her faith so she'll put out. If anything it's anti-religious. Yet Kurt is the one who's offended while the actual religious kids are dancing around? I mean, I can understand the dancing around, I'm Christian and I love that song, but...it ain't a religious song. Neither is "One of Us", which is just a "What if" song. And "Bridge Over Troubled Water" and "Losing My Religion" aren't about religion either. "I Turn to You" is only ambiguously religious and could be about anyone you want it to be about. "Papa, can you hear me?" counts but she didn't sing that in school. Although, yes, singing it to a comatose guy you don't know against the wishes of the family is very offensive and creepy. Not to mention touching his head!
* The whole "religious"/"non-religious" song thing seems to have come out of nowhere as a way to ratchet up the tension for the episode. No one ever mentioned anyone having a problem with Imagine or Say A Little Prayer, and remember Figgins back in S01E02 getting a list of approved songs from his pastor that all have either "prayer" or "ballons" in the title? (Still waiting for the 99 Red Ballons follow up on that one :)

!!The prayer circle in "Grilled Cheesus"
What the HELL were they thinking? Kurt specifically said he doesn't want their prayers. And then Rachel, Mercedes and Quinn go to the hospital to pray. They didn't ask for Kurt's permission, in fact he wasn't even there. Rachel even sang and TOUCHED Burt. How dare they? It was unbelievably rude. I admire Kurt for being so restrained and asking them to leave instead of THROWING them out.
* Finn might have asked them to. While he may not be Burt's son by blood, he still feels like Burt is part of his family.
* Kurt might not have wanted the prayers, but who says that Burt wouldn't want people praying for him? There was no mention of whether or not Burt was religious.
* And Carole Hudson, she did not protest.

!!"Grilled Cheesus" in general
From Finn not praying for Burt (the only time he brings it up is when he yells at Kurt, who could possibly lose the only parent he has, about not telling him), to Kurt's "friends" preaching their religions, even though he specifically told them that he doesn't believe in God, alieninating him when he needed them the most, to Sue being villianize because she has the audacity to complain about children talking about religion, in a public school, where everyone is bound to have different religions! Worse, Kurt had to apologize for pushing them away, but they never apologized for making him uncomfortable in the first place. I'm a devout Christian and I was appalled by what the Glee club was doing. In fairness to the clubbers, they just wanted to help, but it appeared that they wanted to convert Kurt. Now you can pray for anybody regardless of their religion, but you don't have to even tell them that you're praying for them, let along do it in front of them. Why did Mercedes take Kurt to her church? Why did they have a prayer circle around Burt, where Kurt would definitely see? However, I have to give a huge compliment to Puck: he quietly start going to the synagogue to pray for Burt, rather than putting it on the back burner (like Finn did) or making it a huge spectacle to parade in front of Kurt (like practically everyone else did).
* Sue wasn't villainized for complaining about the kids discussing religion; she was villainized for manipulating Kurt when he was at his most vulnerable to further her own agenda. And her explanation of why she did that made this one of the few episodes in which Sue has actually been sympathetic.
* Also, did anyone else find it unrealistic that everyone was so shocked when Kurt said he didn't believe in God? I know Lima is supposed to be really conservative, but I grew up in a really conservative town, and I still knew an atheist or two in high school.
* Actually, I'm pretty sure that absolutely none of the Glee clubbers tried to convert or preach to Kurt. That never happened. And none of them paraded their beliefs around in front of him. He was the one that alienated them when they were trying to help. The prayer circle, as someone else noted above, was done when Kurt was not there, because they knew that he didn't believe and they didn't want to shove their prayers in his face! Nobody tried to convert anyone, unless you think that Brittany giving him her book report and a card was her actually slipping him psalms. In regards to Mercedes, her first song was about prayer being comforting in troubling times, and that was before Kurt revealed that he was an atheist. And yes, she took him to her church - to tell him that even though she didn't understand his belief, or lack thereof, that she will always be there for him! The point of this episode is the moment when Kurt holds hands with the little old lady and realizes that even though he doesn't believe, his friends are there to support him!
** The fact that the prayer circle was done when Kurt wasn't there just makes it worse. Instead of respecting Kurt's wishes they went behind his back. If they wanted to pray for Burt without shoving it in Kurt's face, they could've done it somewhere else, not it the hospital. Hovering around Burt and praying was insensitive and rude.
** [[@/LucyZephyr This Troper]] would like to very loudly second the above. If you are praying for someone despite their sincere wishes, you are not doing it for them, you are doing it for your own comfort. The Glee Clubbers, by performing their little Prayer Circle, were basically saying, "We know you explicitly said not to do this, but we're going to do it anyway." And they couldn't have thought Kurt wouldn't be in the hospital room. His father's there, of course he will be too! ... [[SuspiciouslySpecificDenial Not that this troper is an atheist who grew up in a small town in the bible belt]] [[BerserkButton and has had to deal with this sort of thing on multiple occasions.]]
*** While I agree what they were doing was wrong, I don't agree it was just for their own comfort. They didn't need comforting. Burt's not their dad. Quinn and Rachel probably hadn't even met him. They were honestly trying to help, the problem was their failure to look at what they were doing from Kurt's point of view and understand how that would offend him. In the end it was Kurt who looked at things from their point of view and was able to forgive them.
*** I thought they were doing it for Finn and his sudden spirituality. Kurt was probably in the lobby (waiting for the acupuncturist to arrive) so they thought they could come in and offer some comfort for a friend who was willing to receive it.
*** They went to visit Burt, most likely after school, and while there they decided to pray over him. They stopped when Kurt came into the room, explained what they were doing, and left immediately and without protest when he told them to leave. I don't understand why people are making this out to be a carefully organized personal attack. They were doing the only thing they could think of to help in a hopeless situation.
*** Why does no one mention the fact that Carole (ie the girlfriend) was there with them
*** Why did no one ever mention Burt's religion? To my knowledge his wishes and beliefs were never brought up and Burt's wishes should matter a lot more than Kurt's. The fact that it never occurs to anyone to even check or talk about it makes me want to update my living will right this second.
**** In "Furt" Burt is revealed to be a religious person, so he probably would have appreciated the prayer circle, which is probably why Carole was going along with it.
*** A couple of things, as previously stated Sue wasn't villainized because she was atheist. No, she was criticized for manipulated Kurt into protesting against the religious songs for her own selfish, albiet sympathetic, reasons. Nobody was intentionally trying to make Kurt feel uncomfortable, nobody forced him to sing songs or participate. HE alienated himself from everyone else because of their song choices. Kurt apologized because he had been lashing out at them the entire episode. The whole, Mercedes inviting Kurt to her church was in response to his earlier preconceived notions that all Christians are Bible-Thumping Homophobes. Now admittedly, the pray circle was very bold on their part since Kurt made it known he wanted know part in that, so they should've respected his boundaries. But just the same, nobody was trying to shove religion down Kurt's throat.
*** That is, in fact, exactly what they were doing. When he said he didn't believe in God, the whole club was aghast. They switched from trying to comfort him to trying to convince him to be religious, because he "needed to believe in something." When someone is grieving, telling them they are doing it wrong is not the correct response. Their prayer around Burt was so specifically "interfaith," I guess so as not to promote one religion over another, but that just meant that everyone's feelings were respected EXCEPT Kurt's. The atheist gets to have his opinions too, people. The whole thing just felt like a random {{anvilicious}} pro-religion episode, and then afterward everything snapped right back to normal. It was kind of pointless, and - to any atheists - offensive.
*** To me, it seemed less pro-religion and more anti-intolerance. Kurt accepting Mercedes' invitation to see what a "tolerant" church was like (instead of dismiss all religious people as intolerant idiots) was seen as a good thing, and everyones' insistence that he actually be religious (instead of doing what he felt was right) was a bad thing. I (something vaguely similar to a pantheist) thought that religious people who didn't get what I thought was the point would be more offended than atheists who didn't get what I thought was the point, so take that as you will.
*** They why did Sue and Kurt go unconverted? The Aesop was more involved in the person, not the religion. If it was pro-Christian episode, than Kurt ("I believe in you [dad]") and Sue would have converted in the end. It does offer its pro-Christian philosophy of love for all in the conversation of Sue and Emma. In the end, Kurt realizes that he doesn't believe in God, but he can appreciate the caring prayers his friends give him. At the end of the episode, they sing "What If God Was One Of Us." What if... Kurt and Sue both make their peace in religion without converting. And this is a real-life Christian speaking here.

!!Kurt's guardian in "Grilled Cheesus"
In-universe, no one has any idea how long it'll take for Burt to regain consciousness or if he'll even make it, so shouldn't the school or the hospital call any contact of Kurt's to make sure that he's taken care of?
* He was probably staying with Finn and his mom.

!! Sue and Jean Sylvester
When Sue goes to visit her MoralityPet, she talks about why she stopped believing in God. After realizing that Jean was ridiculed for living with down Syndrome, she prayed 'for her to get better'. If you don't see how offensive this statement is, try replacing down syndrome with 'black skin' or 'homosexuality'. Apparently, the bigots are right, 'Jean' is the one that needs to change. Sure, down syndrome is a disorder, but that doesn't mean that it's okay to discriminate the people who have it. Let's recap: '''Her own sister and best friend just told her that she would prefer to change her to a more 'socially acceptable' person instead of changing others to be more acceptable of the person she is'''. In the Real World, this very issue is a rather big {{BeserkButton}} in the disabled community. Jean should (and has every right to be) ''furious''.
* Keep in mind that Sue was a ''little kid'' when she prayed her sister to get better, you can't expect her to fully know what she was talking about. And let's be honest, changing people with hateful opinions is near impossible. No matter what there will always be ''someone'' who just can't accept others for who they are. Regardless, though, it is 100% true that Sue's sister ''would'' have a better life if she didn't have down syndrome, you can't just erase the fact that it's easier to live without a mentally incapacitating disease than with one. Why wouldn't Sue want the best for her sister? It's true that Sue loved her just the way she was, but that doesn't mean that her sister isn't going to have to deal with hardships because she has down syndrome.
** I can accept that Sue didn't fully know what she was talking about when she was young re. the prayers to "cure" Jean. However, I don't understand why, as an adult, she still regards it as so unfair that God didn't intervene to change Jean - especially when Sue is fully capable of articulating how much she loved her sister just as she was.
*** ''Because her sister would still have a better life without down syndrome than with it''. As was already stated in the comment above yours, had you read all of it, you might have realized that.
* I may be wrong on this, but I think Sue said that she prayed that other people would stop laughing at her sister, not that her sister didn't have Down syndrome.
** No, she specifically said she prayed for Jean to get better.
* You are comparing being black and/or being gay with Down Syndrome. Down Syndrome is a medical disorder, being black or gay is not. They're not even close to being the same thing.
** Of course they're not the same thing. But, if you have a certain very specific point of view, an admittedly-limited analogy could be drawn. Some people wish their gay friends or family were not gay so as to spare them the suffering of being bullied by hateful homophobes. It may be wrong to wish their friend or family member to be different, especially with something so central to their identity, but sometimes people are so distressed that they focus on wishing for the wrong change (in this case, not just wishing for those homophobic people to be more open and loving). And yes, Down's Syndrome is a medical disorder, but some of the most loving, giving, and life-affirming people this troper has ever met have had DS. They might not be that way (or, at least, not that much) if they didn't have DS. How much can you want a person to be different without, in the end, not wanting them to be who they really are?
*** This is not about being normal, it's about being self-sufficient and mentally capable. As awesome as it is that you know people with Down Syndrome who are loving, giving, and life-affirming, the fact remains that it's a ''syndrome'' and they'd be better off without it.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Duets]]
* It's implied that Mike ''has never sung in public before now.'' He actually says that he's not sure he ''can'' sing. So what exactly has he been doing for the last year? Lip syncking? Rachel and her perfect pitch would have outed him long ago. For that matter, what did he do when Mr. Shue told everyone to prepare a solo in "Laryngitis"? And why did he join the glee club in the first place if he didn't want to sing? If he just wanted to dance, then he should have tried out for Cheerios.
** Perhaps he meant public as in a solo in front of everybody rather than the typical background 'oooh aaah' chants that go on while the main singer steals a spotlight in any given Glee performance. And while his singing and duet performance was freakin' brilliant, it was done in a completely different style to Rachel's or Kurt's typical 'look at me, I can do every vocal range and then some' show offs so it's possible he could feel really insecure about his voice compared to everyone else's attention whoring. As for 'Laryngitis', I got nothing. :P
* Why does it seem like the only time Sam talks to another male character is in the locker room?
** What about the season 2 premere, when Sam introduced Sam to the other guys in New Direction, in their class room?
*** That was more in reference to "Duets" than the whole second season, even Kurt talked to him while he was taking a shower.
** Because it would be a lot harder to justify him taking his shirt off in the choir room.
*** But much more fun.
** I dunno, but I think it's unfair to accuse Kurt of stalking Sam when Finn is the one who keeps popping up in the locker room whenever he's in there, telling him what clubs to join, who he can be friends with, and who should be his girlfriend. How did he even find out about him trying to kiss Quinn, anyway? And how is that a major Glee party foul? What does that even mean? And in case Sam wasn't weirded out enough already, he goes and does that "Born Again" number for the duet contest...
*** No one is accusing Kurt of stalking Sam, Finn is just trying to be preemptive because of what happened last year. If Kurt gets attached to Sam, Sam might get weirded out and leave the club, which Finn is trying to prevent because Sam is has a shot at bridging the gap between glee and the popular kids. Finn keeps showing up in the locker room because he's on the football team and is often in the locker room when Sam is. He found out about Sam and Quinn the same way everyone in high school knows about stuff: people talk. Quinn is kind of forbidden territory after the pregnancy, apparently it's just kind of understood. The "Born Again" thing was, admittedly, weird.
* Finn says he doesn't have a problem with the fact that Kurt is gay, he has a problem with the fact that Kurt doesn't get that "no means no", which would be a legit point, but the only time Finn ever actually said "no" was in "Theatricality". The issue was always that Kurt was persistant and didn't respect Finn's boundaries, yes, but Finn always had trouble asserting those boundaries (For instance, in "Ballad" Kurt tells Finn he wants to sing "I Honestly Love You" to him, and instead of pointing out that it's innapropriate, Finn just says it's a nice song and looks uncomforable). It just seems kind of unfair to treat Kurt like a sex offender who was ignoring outright requests for him to stop and leave Finn alone when Finn barely ever bothered to say anything about it.
** Yes, exactly. If Finn were a girl he wouldn't be able to put out a restraining order, he would have been accused of "leading him on" and "playing coy" even though he had no interest. Kurt was doing what society teaches men to do and Finn was actually doing what society teaches women to do. Men are taught that persistence pays off when it comes to persuing, and women are taught not to be too assertive or they'll come off as "bitchy". It's a messed up situation no matter what gender the people involved are, but it's judged more harshly when it's two men and the more feminine one is playing the wrong role against the more masculine one. In fact, people would probably have no problem with a masculine gay guy persuing Kurt in the same fashion.
** Kurt ''knew'' that Finn was strait. Finn shouldn't ''have'' to say no. Look at it this way: my sister had a crush on her gay best guy friend. If she had pressured him anyway and tried to turn him ''strait'' just because he "never really said no", would that justify defense? True, Finn's line about "no means no" was a little off, but what he meant was that Kurt completely and intentionally dismissed boundries he knew Finn had to try and seduce him. That is not okay, and Finn was making it clear to Kurt that he better not do that agian. What Kurt did was restraining order worthy--he got their parents together so that he could get closer to Finn (who, to add a pinch of Squick, should be more like a brother figure then) and when their parents made them share a room (which is just stupid. Would you put your daughter and son in the same room?) instead of doing the right thing and saying "Dad, that's not appropriote" he used that to his advantage. Yes, Finn didn't say that either, but he was probably afraid of saying something that might offend Kurt or Burt. I don't think it has anything to do with "gender roles," it was just a creepy thing to do.
*** Wait... what? You can't take a restraining order out on someone for setting your parents up. You would get laughed out of court.
*** Except all Kurt did was flirt a bit, introduce two parents in the hopes he and Finn would get to spend more time together, not tell his Dad about his crush and... well, yeah. That's not restraining order worthy. It's 'sit him down and say no, not interested, please stop' worthy, but you're not gonna get put in court for it. (Also, it is really not the same thing to put a gay guy in with his new step brother as a brother and a sister. Gay guys aren't completely unable to control themselves around the gender they see every day in the mirror, jeez.)
**** It might not be court-worthy and Finn was probably hyperbolizing when he said that, but Kurt was still overstepping his boundaries. He mistook Finn's kindness for something deeper and didn't know when to back off when Finn didn't return the affection. And let's be real. Even if Finn ''was'' gay or bi, that's still [[TokenShipping no reason to date by itself]]. Finn was only nice to Kurt ''because he's a decent person.'' Kurt's behavior would still be creepy and stalkerish if Finn were gay; setting up the parents to date as a ploy to get closer to him just sounds like a subtle IHaveYouNowMyPretty (the look on Kurt's face when Burt and Carol announced they were dating only confirmed this). And by the way, it's a little silly to point out that gay people don't get off on ''themselves'', because that's just weird no matter which way you swing (narcissist much?).
***** Yes, it was overstepping boundaries. But it wasn't any creepier than, say, Will not backing off Emma when Emma explicitly told him to, or Will being treated by the show as in the right for trying to conduct an emotional affair with her, or asking her if she'd had sex with her new boyfriend, or Finn telling Rachel outright to break up with Jesse and be with him. Basically, they're teenagers, they screw up sometimes. Was it pretty creepy? Yep. But it's not something worth demonizing someone over, especially when Kurt is continually singled out above and beyond the above examples for it. And it's not worth bringing up restraining orders over like was said above. (The point I was making with the rooming thing was just that no, it's not unacceptable to room a gay guy and a straight guy together like it would be brother and sister. Gay men are more used to male bodies than straight women, generally, and it's a bit like people saying gay men need 'special' changing rooms or something. Not the same at all.)
** Except Finn ''knew'' Kurt was ogling him and would sneak a peak whenever possible. And let's not pretend Kurt wasn't. I'm not trying to demonize him, and I know exactly what he's going through, feeling like he's the only gay person in existence. But he still needed to learn his behavior wasn't cool.
*** But that's not the same as rooming 'a brother and sister', that's rooming someone with a ''crush''. It's not the same thing, and yes, one of them probably should have pointed this out. With regards to the second point... he did? I mean, no, we didn't get a Very Special Moment about it. (Until we got the ridiculous 'it means you may never spend time with straight guys again' thing in s2, anyway.) But it ''never'' benefitted him. It ended with him in tears in his room having been told 'no, never' in very unambiguous terms. Yes, the moment shifted to focus on Finn's homophobic comment, but the moment still presented to Kurt a very clear message that no, you can't manipulate him into a relationship, and you've just hurt and angered him. Isn't that enough, really?
*** Kurt never tried to look at Finn in the shower, though. He's been shown to be a romantic seeking an emotional connection. Finn was assuming AllGaysArePromiscuous and AllMenPerverts, but at this point Kurt would be happy just to hold hands with someone. Just because he was sexually attracted to Finn doesn't mean he was lecherously ogling him and ready to jump his bones at any second. That's not how his crush was portrayed at all.
**** ^Just to add: Please notice that one of the very first interactions that Finn had with Kurt had him saying that "he was flattered, but already had a date for prom", (Even before Kurt admitted being gay) while that was just him being nice, Kurt interpreted it as "I'm seeing someone now, but I might be interested if i wasn't". Kurt always respected his relationship with Quinn more than Rachel, and only did a little flirting, and started "seducing" him only after Quinn and Finn had broken up already. Since Kurt knew how Rachel acted during Finn/Quinn relationship, she was fair game.
* Finn says that if Sam does a duet with Kurt "He'll get so much crap, he'll HAVE to quit Glee club", which neatly ignores that Kurt probably gets that level of "crap" every day, but also ignores the basic issue of WHO would be giving him crap, and how they would find out about the Duet. For every number except Kurt's "Le Jazz Hot" number, the only people who saw the kids perform were the other Glee clubbers and the backing band. It's not like Kurt and Sam would be performning their duet at nationals or in front of the school. Someone would have to outright go and TELL the school jocks/bullies that they did a duet together, and ignoring why anyone would be motivated to do that, I have serious doubts about how much flak Sam would get for "So I heard you sang a gay little song with that Hummel kid".
** I wondered the same thing. Finn really came across as a homophobic jackass here. "I'm not the one with a problem, society is!" I've heard ''that'' before. Sam deserves credit for his maturity, in both wanting to keep his word with Kurt despite the potential social stigma, and genuinely not understanding why Kurt backed out of the duet.
** Kurt gets that level of crap because he's gay, not because he's in Glee club. He would get it whether he was in Glee or not (sad, but true). And, as said above, this is high school. No one knows how things get out, but they do and then everybody knows about them. And you're forgetting the one thing that McKinley High has that no other high school in the world has: Sue Sylvester. Sue would know what had gone down, and tell ''everybody'' with the express intention of getting Sam to leave Glee so they wouldn't be able to compete. And finally, Karofsky and Azimio slushie people for no reason other than being associated with the club, and they were especially bad to Kurt during ''Theatricality'' with the implication that this isn't unusual (see also the early series instances of dumpster dropping). When they inevitably would find out about Sam and Kurt singing a duet together they would ''definitely'' focus their energy on tormenting Sam.
* So Sam is shown to be willing to risk homophobic bullying because he gave his word. Which I thought was very awesome of him. However, doesn't that kind of contradict his ''entire'' story in "Audition", where he broke his word to Finn and chickened out of joining Glee ''because he was afraid of homophobic bullying''? I don't think he made a blood oath with Kurt. I'm sure his word was just "Sure, I'll sing with you." the same as how he told Finn "Sure, I'll audition for Glee Club." And they didn't even try to handwave why he suddenly decided he wanted to join after all!
** The way I saw it, his injury meant he couldn't play football again for the rest of the season, and he joined Glee Club because it was the only other extracurric that he was interested in.
** Maybe he just realized he doesn't really care what people think about him being ''in'' Glee club. Finn is afraid that the added abuse from singing with Kurt might chase him off again. It's a delicate situation that he is trying to maintain.
** Maybe he just ''changed'' his mind? Or maybe he just thinks that homophobia is wrong enough that he should stand up to it?
** IIRC, Sam decided not to join Glee because he was afraid Coach Beiste was going to give him crap for it (like she did when Finn put up the posters in the locker room). Maybe he can't play anymore because of his injury or just noticed that she was cool with it (because Finn got back to the team and Artie joined too).
* How the hell did the Finn who dressed up in a ''Lady Gaga'' costume in series one to make it up to Kurt end up as the guy who goes hey, sucks for you Kurt, but man, think of the straight dudes! Seriously? The guy who a wore red PVC dress to stick up for him is suddenly of the opinion that Sam getting laughed at- which he will be anyway for being in Glee, since its nickname is 'homo explosion'- now thinks straight guys should put themselves first? Where'd all that character development go?
** The "we need drama" box?
* How did Artie go from telling Brittany, "I still have feelings for someone else..." to being all, "Oh, cool! Let's have sex!" in basically his very next line? He just had AesopAmnesia in the same scene! In the space of two lines! "I'm not supposed to be with this person. Oh, hold on, wait, I want to have sex with this person." Either that was supposed to be jarring, nonsensical and wrong in an effort to set up the true OTPs (Tina and Artie and, uh...I don't know, Brittany and Santana I guess...) later in the season, or it's really shitty writing.
** Um, because he's a confused teenager, and the girl he still has feelings for is dating a guy who is well known for being good at the one thing Artie really wants to do, but will never be able to? Artie has, at this point, all but given up on getting back together with Tina, and just doesn't know how to stop being in love with her. Remember, the thing that Brittany ultimately used to seduce Artie was the prospect that she would "help [him] forget Tina." The problem wasn't that he didn't want to be with Brittany, it was that he wanted to be with Tina ''more'' and didn't know how to get past that.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The Rocky Horror Glee Show]]
* The very end annoyed the ever-loving hell out of me when Will canceled the show after he realized that the only reason he was doing TheRockyHorrorShow in the first place was to romance Emma. All well and good... until he tries to justify his actions to the teens by drawing a parallel between Rocky Horror fans and the Glee Club members. He then says that they are going to do the show... but the teens will perform to a closed theater with no audience and will, in effect, be doing the show for themselves. So basically, [[BrokenAesop the whole moral of the show]] is that it is okay to be different - an outcast, a weirdo or a freak - just so long as you and the rest of the freaks hide yourselves away where the normal people don't have to look at you. Considering the Glee Club has a number of handicapped, minority and gay members, this has very UnfortunateImplications.
** I think you've got that backwards. He says that Rocky Horror was a place where the outcasts, weirdos, and freaks (and I mean that in the best possible way) could be themselves without having to deal with the "normal" people who would condemn them. By doing the show just for themselves, the club isn't "hiding" from the world, they're celebrating who they are ''to themselves'' in a private moment where no one is going to judge them.
* So, it's all right for Mike Chang to say tranny, but in Sweet Transvestite, the word transexual gets changed to [[strike: sensational]] sin-sational? Aside from making the song sound downright odd, it's riddled with UnfortunateImplications.
** I think that was more of a case of TheCoverChangesTheGender. Mercedes already is a girl, so she's not a transsexual. Not that that makes much more sense...
*** But in that case, she's not a transvestite either...
** It's GameplayAndStorySegregation for television. Mike Chang can say tranny ''on the show'' because there isn't any rule that says he can't (and even if there was, Glee has gotten away with saying "fag" several times in a row, albeit in a dramatic context). The words of Sweet Transvestite (and, presumably, Touch a Touch a) were changed because there is no way ''in story'' that a high school would be allowed to do Rocky Horror if they weren't. The reason they're still like that on the EP is that the songs that are released are the same recordings used in the show itself, so it is difficult to change them unless an alternate take was being used. The ''show'' can say "transexual," but the ''characters'' can't perform it that way.
*** As noted above, the songs get played on the radio. Apparently, you can't say transexual on the radio. You can say whatever you want (more or less) on television. It did make the song sound absurd, though.
*** Of course it's a MASSIVE wallbanger and a case of Did Not Do The Research when you think about the fact that Transexual is a PLANET, not a condition.
*** The difference is, whenever "fag" has been said, it's been treated as a bad thing to say and a big deal. "Tranny" wasn't treated as a slur at all.
*** Whether a planet or a state of being, it's still not really something most high schools would allow to be said in front of a paying audience full of parents and alumni. As for the difference between "fag" and "tranny," it's unfortunate, but "fag" is NOT something that can be said on television without ''serious'' repercussions if it goes south and "tranny" has no such taboo right now. An unfair double standard? Yes, but not one that people would call them on hard enough to change.
**** There was no way to adress the issue like they did with "fag" because there aren't any transexual characters in the show. Any attempt to talk about it would have been ridiculously forced in. You can say that they shouldn't have used the word (though since the characters are highschool students it seems pretty realistic) but if they actually stopped the show for a few minutes to have a talk about respecting trans folks, trust me, you would be complaining even more about the awful writing.
***** Why did it need to be written in in the first place? The writers *chose* to put it in, when it would have been just as easy to have him say 'transvestite'. THAT'S the issue. It's gratuitous. Besides, a pointed look from Will and Mike saying 'er, transvestite' would actually have been enough to negate it a bit.
**** This troper would like to point out that there are many people who have no idea 'tranny' is an insult, and think that it's the legitimate term to refer to trans people. This troper would know, until last summer she was one of them.
* The very conveniently forgotten Santana and Brittany are fighting plot from the previous episode.
** I mean REALLY.
** Have you ever met teenagers? My friend and I can go from "I hate you so much I hope you die" to "Hey, lets go get some smoothies and go halloween shopping after school" in ''one day''. This takes place at least a few days or at most a few weeks after "Duets", so they might have, if nothing else, suppressed the issue for the sake of their friendship.
*** no, there is NO excuse for the show to just drop the issue, it really did have the potential for a great story arc, but they just cut if off. And I AM a teenager, so I'm quite sure that just forgetting that you were mad at a friend ISN'T NATURAL, and is ''not'' a common occurrence.
**** Well, Santana and Brittany more or less live in a whole MeanGirls kind of school environment. Arguments about relationships are probably a dime a dozen, and theirs wasn't even that big a deal (we mostly just saw Brit be upset at Santana, more than the other way around) in the grand scheme of things. What will possibly happen is that they've made up on the surface or are just not talking about it and the deeper issues will come out again some other time.
* Will asks Emma to help him practice a song. Okay. But why does he only have about 2 lines in said song? It doesn't make any sense to have to practice somthing when HE ISN'T THE ONE SINGING.
** He was flat-out trying to get in her panties.
** There are other reasons to rehearse something for a musical other than singing. Choreo and blocking being the other big two. Yes, this is a flimsy justification for getting Emma to sing it, but I think that's what Will was referring to when he asked for help.
* Which brings to discussion my main beef with the episode Will in general. Talk about TookALevelInJerkass, his storyline was just plain uncomfortable. I can understand him being jealous, but going through such measure just to win Emma over, especially after he promised earlier in the season to back off out of respect, was a massive WallBanger. Honestly, the way he was treating Carl, Will came off as a spoiled child who wasn't getting his way.
** He was acting more like an only child who just had a baby brother brought home from the hospital. His whole deal with Carl helping Emma get better is not that HE is the one who wants to do it, it's that he was the one who WAS doing it. Think back to the chalk dust moment from early in the first season, or even the gum on her shoe in the pilot. Will is scared that Carl will replace him in Emma's life. Does it justify the lengths he went to this episode? No, not at all. But it helps explain them a bit better.
* The fact that while Will sang Touch-A with Emma, if they had gone through with the show he would have sung it with Rachel.
** Chances are that scene would've been cut had the play went on. Remember, Sue was doing extensive cuts. That scene was probably just meant to play up all the {{UST}} between Will and Emma.
** Out of universe, they needed to make a way for Jayma Mays to sing Touch-a because she sang it for her original audition. Unfortunately, Getting Emma to sing is one of the harder things to do because there is usually no real reason for her to do so. Notice that of the three songs she's sung so far (I Could Have Danced All Night, Like a Virgin, and Touch-a Touch-a Touch-a Touch Me) two of them were at Will's urging, and one was a dream sequence.
* Did anyone else find Will incredibly creepy this episode? Never mind his jealousy over Emma and Carl, but just the way he acted towards the students during the episode. 'Your body is fine, Sam' smacks of UnfortunateImplications and him throwing himself into a student performance (as a half naked man) is even worse. Also, it really felt like he was manipulating Emma into singing 'Touch-A, Touch-A, Touch Me' since he [i]knows[/i] she's a bit of a push over and he knows she's really into Carl. Please, I'll take him rapping over this new development any day.
** Yeah he was being creepy. In the case of the students, he really didn't care so much about the play itself since he was just using it to impress Emma so he was really more Nonchalant with them. But yea, he went overboard being a ManipulativeBastard.
* If it's inappropriate for a sixteen-year-old to play a nearly-naked hunk who has lots of [[strike: sex]][[{{Bowdlerization}} suggestive situations]] in a school play, how is it ''less'' inappropriate for the teacher in his late 30s to play it, especially opposite a student who had intentionally put herself in compromising situations with him the previous year? I get that Schue misunderstood Sam, or possibly understood his problem with playing Rocky ''too well'' and only bothered to fix the symptoms (but not... ... ...the cause), but making a longer pair of shorts and giving Sam some more encouragement would have been ''much'' better, in so many ways, than just taking the part for himself.
** As far as I could tell, Will taking the part had absolutely nothing to do with Sam and everything to do with Will. It wasn't leaping into the breach, it was stealing the limelight.
* Sam's behaviour: He seems almost dangerously obsessed with the way he looks and being popular. I understand not wanting to be an outcast in a school you just transferred to, but really... I can't remember the exact wording, but he said something about feeling guilty for eating Ranch Doritos, which is an attitude that strikes me as pretty unhealthy.
** I thought it was pretty clearly spelled out that he had a dysmorphic disorder. I'm just hoping that they make something of it instead of declare it cured because he "was asked to be June in the 'Men of [=McKinley=] High' calendar".
* So it's okay for a high school student (an a boy initially) to play Frank-N-Furter but not the Criminologist?! And as it was mentioned above, Will as Rocky would be unbelievably innappropriate.
* Also they had to change the lyrics for harmless words but they kept in students in their underwear, even when it's obviously making the kid uncomfortable? Or how about that Finn is so worried about being in his underwear but not that he's playing a guy who gets seduced by another man or performs in a Cabaret show in drag.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Never Been Kissed]]
* Does Will's attitude in this episode not bother anyone else? Like...gay bashing is something Kurt needs to let roll off his back. But the football coach feels unattractive and so the Glee kids need to be berated for hurting her feelings. Just...really Will? You can do something about Kurt's situation and yet you just...don't. What an asshole.
** This Troper never thought of it that way. To me, he just seemed surprised because Kurt had previously never let the bullies get to him. But thinking about it... If Will has known about the bullies for a while, why hasn't he done anything?
* Um, has no one told Will that there's a lot more to a first kiss than just putting lips together? I figured Beiste would freak out when he kissed her since, I'm assuming, there's no romance between them and it'd be a bit hollow. Wouldn't you want your first kiss to mean something, rather than it just be out of pity?
** Yeah, I brought it up after watching the episode. "You're a great woman, beautiful on the inside ''and'' the outside, and any guy would be lucky to want you." *kiss* "[[MoodWhiplash By the way, I'm not attracted to you.]]" I described it as "one of Schue's half-baked plans that shouldn't work and often don't" (in addition to mentioning that Schue seems to have been underdosing on his common-sense replacement pills lately).
** Eh, he doesn't say he's not attracted to her, but rather that he's still in love with Emma. He probably isn't, but at least he has an excuse. If they did go out, it would just be a repeat of Emma and Ken (does anyone think they might bring him back to pair with Beiste?).
** It may not have been motivated by attraction, but it was still a romantic gesture in an emotionally charged moment. Will was helping her cross the threshold. After 40 years, it would probably be nearly impossible for Beiste to bring herself to kiss someone, so Will took the decision away from her to show her that it's not ''as'' big a deal as she's worked it up to be. He was giving her the confidence to go out and do it for real.
* Why couldn't Azimio be the one loaded with {{gayngst}}? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for this new plot thread of Karofsky being gay and attracted to Kurt, and I can't wait to see where it goes. But still, it'd be nice if this show had more than one compelling black character.
** I wondered where Azimio ''was'' for this episode. They had been hanging out together pretty much every time either of them gave Kurt or Finn a hard time, and then all of a sudden Azimio disappears for an entire episode (or more, depending on how soon he reappears). ([[EpilepticTrees It's still possible that]] Azimio is gay and interested in Karofsky, and conveniently missed Karofky's coming out to Kurt and Kurt talking about it specifically to increase the {{gayngst}}).
** Considering that every time ThisTroper turns on TBS the actor who plays Azimio is in a promo for the new show Glory Daze, I have a feeling that it was merely scheduling conflicts
** I've heard that Karofsky is going to have to face the consequences of his bullying. If that's the case, then having it be Azimio would have added the dimension of accusing a black guy of being prejudiced, which would open a huge can of worms that I'm sure the writers don't want to be part of the story they're telling. If it's Karofsky that is gay, the story can go ahead with what it is, rather than having to deal with the added dimension of Azimio's race.
*** Do you really think there are no homophobic black people? On paper, it makes sense for someone from a minority to know better than exercise blind prejudice against others, but sadly that's not the case in real life. Most people get offended if you ''dare'' make such comparisons, no matter how legit your point might be.
*** What I meant is that, ''from a writing standpoint'' Azimio's race would have to be addressed if they went with him over Karofsky. The writers obviously want to focus exclusively on the bullying aspect ''without'' other factors coming into play.
* Karofsky's always sort of had a larger role than Azimio anyway. He got a full introduction while Azimio sort of filtered in.
* Um...since when did Artie want Brittany back?
** Since having sex with her didn't get Tina to run right back to him, and he remembered that Brittany is an attractive girl who might be interested in dating and/or copulating with him again? He only broke up with her because he was upset about her [[ValuesDissonance being inconsiderate of feelings of which she was unaware]].
* That Puck apparently has no reaction to Quinn and Sam dating. I mean he was obviously in hell in juvie and his life is a mess and to top it off the girl he's supposedly in love with has started something up with a different guy. I mean, you'd think he'd at least mention it.
** Because he was -scared- shitless by juvie and was more interested in not going back there versus more mundane things at the moment. I mean, when getting your nipple ring ripped out is the least of your worries in a place, you're probably not going to be thinking "Gee... my girlfriend is with someone else."
* Because of this episode, there will be tons and tons of Karofsky/Kurt shippers, I mean, I willing to support the ship IF the show give me a reason to it. But, the shippers will simple jump at it before any character development justify it. >:(
** I agree (and "will be" nothing, there already were as of late the night of the episode's airing), but this isn't [[ShipToShipCombat Complaining About Ships You Don't Like]]- [[TakeItToTheForums this page]] may be more relevant. Until/Unless Karofsky/Kurt starts happening in canon with or without CharacterDevelopment, there's no platform on which that point can stand as a full-fledged JBM.
** From what I gather in the forums, the Kurt/Blaine shippers think Karofsky would likely continue to physically and emotionally abuse Kurt even after they started dating, while Kurt/Karofsky shippers think Blaine is great and all, but a little ''too'' perfect and thus dramatically uninteresting. Time will tell.
** And then us Kurt/Sam shippers are waiting [[strike: patiently]] for all the between season hints, and the blatant teasing from "Duets" to pay off.
** Heh, I have seen ships based on even less than that. And it would be far for the more cracky ship on the show
** Original guy to post the IJBM, my actual problem is that I know that there already are die hard kurt/karofsky shippers, after a single FORCED kiss.
** What bugs this troper is that people are using Karofsky's sexuality to redeem him. Just because he's gay doesn't mean he's not a bully and a homophobe.
** True, but it does give us some insight into why he picks on Kurt and the other Glee clubbers. He still has to ''work'' to redeem himself, and made absolutely no effort to do so at the end of the episode. He might just need time to sort out his feelings. I'm just hoping they actually go somewhere with this, instead of having everything go back to "normal" as soon as Azimio comes back. If nothing else, Kurt could at least blackmail Karofsky into leaving him alone.
** I agree. It's by no means the show's fault for clearly, Kurt never wanted to reciprocate the kiss and is horrified by his death threat. So far, the threat may be a Moral Event Horizon. But of course, redemption is not impossible. Well, let's wait.
** Max Adler (the guy who plays him) has more or less said it's not going to happen. Still, a lot of people like effed up pairings in fanfic ''because'' they're effed up- not necessarily because they think it's healthy or a good idea.
* [[DoubleStandard Tina never apologized]] [[RuleOfPerception onscreen]]. Also, Mike didn't really do any talking, which brings up Kurt and Artie (and, [[NotMeThisTime only technically]], Puck) being involved in the "apology" mashup/contest with a part equal to or greater than Mike's, but at least he was involved in the apology activity.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The Substitute]]
* So, did Mercedes' obsession with fried food a) seem to come out of nowhere, b) seem a ''[[{{Understatement}} little]]'' [[{{UnfortunateImplications}} tasteless?]]
** I agree that the execution wasn't the greatest, but I think the idea is that Mercedes is getting jealous because her best friend is spending more and more time with a new love interest (we've all been there before), and is using food to cope.
* Santana scoffed at Holly knowing who Cee-Lo Green is, making it clear that Miss Lopez DidNotDoTheResearch. Cee-Lo debuted as part of Goodie Mob in 1994, meaning it's entirely possible Holly liked him since ''she'' was a teenager.
* Blaine, for making this male troper wish he was straight.
** Why, exactly? Sure he's a bit of a MartyStu but he's only been around for two episodes.
** Also, we're mostly looking at him from the perspective of Kurt(who obviously idolizes him) or through the eyes of Mercedes in which case it was mostly 'Gay gay gay gay gay gay. Gay? Gay!'. I'm willing to let Kurt have a minor victory here and be bloody damn happy until all the drama and character development comes in.
** [[strike: Are you male and wish you could tell him to StopBeingStereotypical, or are you female and think he's [[StupidSexyFlanders awesome]]? Context, please.]] He's not really any more stereotypical than Kurt, he's just smarmy (from my point of view). Also a bit dense for not noticing that Mercedes was looking left out, [[strike: and that "What's your favourite Vogue cover from the last year?" wouldn't be a fun game for her]](Never mind, Kurt said it first, and it's a reasonable assumption for Blaine to make that Mercedes' best friend would know what topics she would enjoy), but he's really not that bad (if you factor in the previous episode), especially considering (as an above troper put it) a lot of it was through the eyes of [[UnreliableNarrator Mercedes]]. He was actually pretty AmbiguouslyGay on average (depending on how you add it up, accounting for Mercedes' biased viewpoint, and considering he's only been in two episodes so far).
* Am I correct in assuming that Karofsky meant he would kill Kurt if Kurt told anyone, rather than if Kurt kept his mouth shut? Karofsky worded that in a very confusing and most likely inaccurate way, which is understandable (given his emotional state), but certainly confusing. (In addition, there ''is'' the possibly of a FreudianSlip having happened).
** "Tell anyone, and I'll kill you." Sounds pretty straightforward here. And not in the joking "OMG I'm gonna kill you!" hyperbole teenagers are prone to. I'm actually worried for Kurt's safety here.
* Kurt's treatment of Mercedes bugged the hell out of me. It never occurred to him that he was neglecting Mercedes to be with Blaine (especially when this was the exact same thing he was mad at his father for doing with Finn), and his way of making up to her amounted to "YouNeedToGetLaid (and set her up with a guy based solely on his race), and btw quit eating so much." Christ, with friends like these, who needs the Cheerios?
** TruthInTelevision, so very much. As a very recent ex-highschooler who's been in Mercedes' shoes, that scene was painful to watch. There's a reason why this troper refers to teenagers (herself included) as being in the Stupid Years, and none of the glee kids are exempt from being idiot teens.
** True, But what really bugs me is that while Mercedes is realizing she shouldn't use Kurt as a stand-in for an actual boyfriend, not once did he wonder if ''maybe'' he was neglecting her. The show has a bad habit of making Kurt right by default.
*** And the fans are developing an habit of making Kurt wrong by default. Yes, Kurt and Mercedes are BFFs. but they're not each other ONLY friend. Mercedes has also both Tina and Quinn, but no one seems to blame them for neglecting Mercedes. [[FridgeBrilliance Could it be that Mercedes was actually feeling out because all her friends were getting in relationships?]]
*** Tina and Quinn have been in and out of relationships the whole time Mercedes has known them. Regardless, she's not as close to them as she is with Kurt. They always "had" each other, so it's understandable that she'd be upset when he starts hanging with someone new who can potentially become closer to him than she ever could. As for fans making Kurt wrong by default, what forums and trope pages are ''you'' reading? The logical loops and hurdles most [[FanNickname Kurtsies]] jump so that he is never wrong can be truly astounding. Even when I'm on his side, I find the few critical voices a breath of fresh air.
**** Mercedes invited Quinn to live with her, and Quinn asked her to be with her when her baby was born. Tina and Mercedes were always shown together in the first season. (Then again, she never had a crush on either of them, so there's that too). And I'm reading this and other forums, where they always demonize Kurt for things that he does, or ''doesn't''. Kurt has become such a polarized character that either you try to justify every of his actions, or blame him for everything that happens, and both extremes are wrong. Yes, he has some fault, but not ALL of it.
** While I'm not condoning Kurt's neglect, clearly his facial expression after Mercedes ordered Tator Tots at Breadstix showed that he was worried for Mercedes's well-being. Though he does not bring it up in front of Blaine. But yes, I do hope Kurt won't become the writers' pet.
* How did Kurt set up a date between Mercedes and Anthony??? I mean, really?? Does he has magical match-making skills??
** Why is Anthony not Matt? seriously, what the did Dijon do?
*** Not sure, Dijon was apparently fired. They probably needed to make way for more characters.
** Possibly Anthony had some interest in Mercedes. He did seem interest in her.
* It seem really unfair to anyone else to bitch Will out for the Journey thing, at last Regionals? That happened because of Don't Stop Believing. Which was an important song to the ''kids''; Will wasn't even there when they first started singing it, he walked in midway through.
** At this point it's pretty obvious that certain things are not actually happening or at least are distorted through a character's POV. Will most likely never actually pushed Journey on the kids (other than their set at regionals, which was appropriate for the situation) and it's been shown before that his musical choices are actualy fairly broad.
* How was Mercedes using Kurt as a 'stand in'? Since when does wanting to hang around with your best friend mean you're using them 'instead of' a boy/girlfriend? Mercedes didn't want to do romantic-like things with Kurt, she just wanted to hang out. WTF was he on about?
** Now that Kurt's got an almost-boyfriend he thinks he knows everything there is to know about relationships. Unfortunately, I think the writers might agree with him.
*** Kurt was actually making some sense there. One of the possible downsides of the FagHag relationship is how she might use her gay friend as an emotional stand-in for an actual boyfriend (and if his love life isn't particularly successful, he might do the same to her), and might resent any man he starts dating, for "stealing" him.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: "Poor Karofsky"?]]
* Are you kidding me? Alright, I'll admit that "Never Been Kissed" fleshed out Karofsky's character from more than just a walking plot device for Kurt, and has made him believable. But it's utterly screwed up how some people are jumping to his defense all out of nowhere. "Poor boy, he just wanted Kurt so bad"? "Poor thing :("? '''"The torturer becomes the tortured?" ''' So it's alright for him to physically, verbally and sexually torment Kurt because of his {{Gayngst}}? And not only that, all those people who are now shipping this- did they totally miss that "Hey Homo" scene in "The Subsitute?" If Kurtofsky's going anywhere, it's not going to be [[{{SexIsEvilAndIAmHorny}} anywhere pretty.]] I'll wait until there's been more episodes to consider how sympathetic Karofsky truly is- but in the meantime, people need to stop making Kar-Kar into the next DracoInLeatherPants.
** Preach it! I was annyoed at the moment that I saw the kiss, because I knew exactly this would happen, they would over-woobiefy him into some kind of bizarre martyr.
** I agree! It's by no means the writers' fault because Kurt clearly was disguisted and horrified by the kiss and the death threat, the writers don't seem to intend to give Karofsky much favor other than some viewers' sympathy. The death threat, so far, is pretty much is MoralEventHorizon. But let's wait.
** I disagree. The things Karofsky has done do not differ that much from things some Glee members have done, and they got redeemed, and act "nice" now, so why can't Karosfky? Puck wanted to tip over a porta-potty containing Artie, yet in Never Been Kissed they are somehow friends. Finn threw Kurt in a dumpster, and yet Kurt crushed on him and they'll be step-brothers. In the same episode as Karofsky's death-threat you had Santana trying to attack Rachel, yet that is overlooked.

*** Except most bullying in Glee is overly ridiculous and exaggerated to the point where it's often played up for laughs. IIRC, Kurt's dumpster scene was not only in the (more comedic) pilot, but also jokingly portrayed him as being so casual about it at this point, that he carefully folds up his designer jacket and hands it to one of the jocks to hold onto in the meantime. Karofsky's bullying on the other hand has been straight-up drama and made Kurt's life living hell as an ongoing plot-point since Season 1, so you can't compare it.
*** First, Seriously, using Santanna as example?? Second, while you can argue that the Glee kids might not be that good, this doesn't make Karosfky better, he still a bully, there are plenty of kids in the closet that don't actively try to torment the ones that are out. Third, and most important, none of the glee kids ever actually made a serious death threat.
**** Santana's a great example as she admitted in "Duets" that she does things ''just'' to be a bitch.
** (copied from something I read on live journal) Keep in mind the enviroment and situation Karofsky lives in. Imagine how Karofsky must feel right now, he's a gay in a gay-unfriendly enviroment, an extrmely gay unfriendly enviroment at that. He was probably raised to hate gays, to think that they're wrong, part of why he goes to such lengths to make himself seem nothing but straight. If people find out he's gay, he's going to have to deal with shit from his team mates, his family, his friends. And part of it is, it's going to be worse for Karofsky if people find out he's gay. Everyone knew that Kurt was gay long before he came out of the closet, but Karofsky has been able to decive people into thinking he's straight, and if people found out he wasn't, he'll go from his top dog position to the bottom of the pyramid. And what if his most likey anti-gay parents found out? you remember what happened to Quinn when her father found out she was pregnant, right? I'd imagine it would be something like that if not worse. And now someone knows he's gay, someone who does not like and actually has a pretty damn good reason to hate his guts. And maybe this guy is going to take vengence, and eye for an eye? Karofsky doesn't know, but he can't stop bullying Kurt or else something will look suspicious. Considering all the things that could happen to him if he's found out, it's not a far leap to threaten Kurt's life out of fear. But when you really think about it, Karofsky is going to be the one to loose his life if people find out he's gay, not Kurt.
* Dave represents a lot of closeted homosexuals who aren't in a transparent closet and who don't have a dad as awesome as Burt or friends that would accept him for who he is. There are a lot of Dave's out there, full of self-loathing and fear, and who do stupid things because of that that have all the right to be forgiven if they compensate for what they've done.
** Remember, it's not the writers or producers who make him out to be a Woobie. If anything it looks like they're trying to keep that from happening (He has a FreudianExcuse, but he's still a total and mostly unsympathetic JerkAss). It's the [[FanDumb fans]] that try to twist everything around to make him some kind of tortured hero.
** I think that is okay to woobiefy Dave a little, is when people handwave his past bullying and try to make him '''only''' a Woobie that I see a problem, the guy is a JerkAssWoobie with strong emphasis in the JerkAss part.
* It bugs me that people are complaining about Karofsky, but will give other characters a free pass (Puck anyone?)
** Puck is a jerk because he feels that the world has given up on him and he wants to be noticed. Karofsky is an ass because he's afraid everyone else will find out that he's gay. They may seem similar in their motivations, but Puck has never threatened anyone's life.
* It could be ValuesDissonance on my part, but everyone getting so worked up over the death threat seems odd to me. I've had people threaten to kill me and have threatened to kill people; most of the time it was done affectionately, although, there have been times it was done in anger. I've never been scared of those people, and I doubt any of them were scared of me. The fact that Dave has physically slammed Kurt into lockers, thrown him into dumpsters, slushied him, verbally belittled him, and stolen property seems much more serious. I'm not including the sexual assault because Kurt has made it clear he, at the moment, is going to keep that to himself. Where I went to school, if a teacher heard a kid threaten to kill another kid, the teacher may or may not scold the one who made the threat. If a kid went to a teacher and claimed another student had done even just one thing on the above list, things would be taken much more seriously than Glee treats most of the bullying. I guess the reason this strikes a nerve is because Glee often trivalises bullying, presenting it as funny or as hey-that's-life-deal, but it and the audience both overdramatises an action that many friends, friendly classmates, and loving families engage in.
** The difference is that it was a legitimate threat. Karofsky's tone of voice was ''not'' that of someone who was kidding around. He was pretty clear that if Kurt told anyone, he would definitely (if not kill him) cause him ''serious'' harm.
*** My point is coming across badly, but: I do understand Dave's threat was wrong. I have no problem with Kurt taking it seriously and being written as terrified. It wasn't a joke or a spur-of-the moment fit of anger that will soon be forgotten. He has hurt Kurt before and was threatening even more harm. However, it angers me that many people either find the bullying funny or are apathetic to it but get so worked up over something that, devoid of proper context, is frankly mild. Dave wasn't even touching Kurt; he didn't threaten to rape, waterboard, and kill Kurt by [insert gruesome method]. He said, paraphrased, "If you tell anyone, I'll kill you." I've been complaining about the show's attempts to trivialise, minimise, and at times, glorify bullying ever since it came out, and I feel that people should have been more condemning of Dave and the other bullies long before the threat was ever uttered.
*** Before I start, let me get something clear: Glee has NEVER glorified bullying. The only sympathetic character who regularly bullies people is Puck, because he feels like the world has given up on him and stopped paying attention, a form of social bullying itself. And Artie's helping him move on from that anyway. Now that that's out of the way, the reason the show has never condemned bullying in the past is because the characters have usually just shrugged it off. Finn's initial problems with Karofsky and the plot of ''Theatricality'' notwithstanding, the glee kids never seemed to care about being slushied etc. past the fact that it meant they were unpopular. Kurt himself was so nonchalant about being tossed in a dumpster early on that his only concern was for his jacket and/or bag. However, this season has made it clear that [[ItGotWorse it's getting worse.]] Karofsky is specifically targeting Kurt, and his bullying has become much more brutal in nature. People are latching on to the threat because it's one of the very few things he's actually ''said'' to Kurt. His abuse is almost entirely physical, so the one bit of ''verbal'' abuse that Kurt actually takes seriously and is scared of is easier to talk about because you can say more about it than "Karofsky threw Kurt against the locker even harder than usual that time." You say that people should have been condemning Karofsky (I refuse to use his first name) since the beginning, but it's difficult to really do that when he a) appeared very irregularly (only three episodes in the first season), and b) the other characters either didn't care or (in Finn's case) stood up to him. No one EVER said that what he was doing wasn't wrong, but his victims mostly ignored him, so the audience did too. The first time anyone even ''considered'' the idea that Karofsky might not be so bad (which, for the record, I find ridiculous) was when he kissed Kurt. It was in the very next episode that he issued the now-infamous death threat, so I really don't know where you got the impression that people were trivializing, minimizing, or glorifying Karofsky's actions. I hope I've made myself clear that, for the first two, it was because he was seen as little more than a pest, and for the last that it never happened to begin with (until the FanDumb saw ''Never Been Kissed'').
*** I use Dave instead of Karofsky due to the fact that Dave is so much easier to type. If I use his last name, it becomes a case of having to look it up every single time or trying to remember not to copy anything else so that I can paste it. To me, it doesn't matter if the ones being bullied take it that seriously or not. A person shouldn't have their physical automony disrepected without a very good reason nor should they be verbally belittled. I once read about a girl who was thrown through a window by her father; she didn't think it was a big deal, but most people correctly realised it was. I'd also argue that while the kids are good at shaking the bullying off, there have been signs that it does get to them and that their desire for popularity is more due to the fact that the popular kids aren't put through the things they are. As far as glorifying bullying, well, I think the fact Glee tries to present most cases of bullying as either funny or as something that isn't a big deal does in a way glorify it. I've read message boards and recaps where people talked about how funny Kurt being thrown into a dumpster was, how cool Sue and Puck were, and how Quinn and the others had a point when they cyber-bullied Rachel. Bullying is a bigger deal than many people are willing to realise and admit. I also believe that jumping on a death threat, which, many people in healthy relationships are guilty of, rather than actual physical and verbal abuse is odd and a show of bad priorties.
*** Working backwards: A death threat ''is'' verbal abuse unless it is ''very obviously'' used teasingly between friends. The internet turns people into assholes, that's what we call GIFT. Quinn and the others did NOT have a point when they were cyber-bullying Rachel, her voice is spectacular. Sue, while a bully, is also as close to a regular villain as the show gets, as well as being both insightful and genuinely funny. She gets immunity from the fans because she's so cartoonish that it really doesn't matter what she says. It doesn't hurt that Jane Lynch is just so damn likeable. Puck is not especially "cool" [[DracoInLeatherPants but he is attractive,]] which is where that comes from. Kurt being thrown into a dumpster is funny both because of how nonchalant ''he'' is about it (he practically helps them), ''and'' how nonchalant the other guys are about Schue walking past them. It's the same principle that makes the old Looney Tunes shorts with the wolf and the sheepdog so funny; they're going to do unspeakable things to each other throughout the day, but are chummy towards each other after the whistle blows. It's so absurd it makes us laugh. The fact that you can point out that the kids sometimes show that it gets to them proves that the show ''doesn't'' "make light" of bullying. Also, you're misusing "glorifying." It doesn't give the bullies cart blanche, but it ''does'' matter that the kids just ignore them, because if you ignore the bullies they lose. Haven't you seen the PSAs? Karofsky's issues turned out to be a little deeper than most bullies, but we didn't know that until very recently. Being accepted is a factor in their wanting to be popular, but it's also the major driving factor behind ''everyone'' desire to be popular. Come on, who ''didn't'' felt like an outcast in high school? It's typical high school behaviour. Parental defenestration is something very different from high school bullying. Don't get me wrong, neither of them is a good thing, but they are very different (although I thank you for allowing me to use the word "defenestration" in an actual conversation). And finally, I have a weird thing about names. Some people need to be called by their last name, and some need to be called by ''both'' their first and last names together (and not to differentiate between people with the same first name, just because). Calling Karofsky by his first name just seems wrong to me. It would be like referring to the characters of House by their first names. There's nothing really ''wrong'' with calling him Dave, I just don't think it fits his character very well (might also have something to do with playing a character named Dave with the complete opposite personality for a drama project in high school, but that's only a little bit of it).
*** No, I haven't seen any recent PSAs. I usually watch shows on the internet. The shows I do watch on TV are mostly British, and I'm not sure if the UK is big on PSAs or not. Whether Rachel had a brilliant voice or a horrid one doesn't matter; Quinn and the others had no right to insult her and/or declare she should be sterilised. The thing is, with the exception of Finn and Puck, who both pretty much stopped bullying the Glee kids once they joined Glee, the bullies and Glee kids aren't friendly chums who just try to cartoonishly kill one another during the day. The fact the bullies are so unconcerned about Will being nearby is a big part of my issues. "Furt" showed that Will is willing to help when he actually realises bullying is happening, but he doesn't often realise it's happening. The fact he doesn't is played as funny, but I find it sad and get angry at it trying to play it as funny. Teachers are supposed to keep students safe and, if not happy, emotionally secure. It's a job they fail at so often in real life, either deliberately or due to circumstances not that are not their fault, that to see it played as funny can be triggering for many people. I guess the fact bullying happens frequently in real life while animals trying to kill one another with dynamite doesn't is what makes me able to laugh at the latter while getting worked up over the former. As for the death threat, I'll admit that I've frequently made and had them directed at me. When I first saw that scene, I rolled my eyes. Then, I remembered that Dave has been a complete bully and wasn't joking or in the same boat as a kid who, late for class, muttered, "I'll kill you," after being bumped into and trying desperately to grab her flying papers. The latter isn't what I'd classify as bullying unless the person actually starts harrassing the person who bumped into her. Still, even acknowledging the wrongness of his threat, I tend to take the physical abuse and degrotartory remarks more seriously. That's just me.
*** Sorry, the PSA reference was probably not very helpful. It refers to a Canadian add from like, the 90s. They always started on a tight shot of the bully's face as he harassed his victim. The camera would slowly pull back until, at the very end, you realize that there is no one else around. The narration says something like "If everyone walked away, bullying just seems...stupid." Hope that clears it up. My point when I said that Rachel has a great voice was that Quinn and the others did not have a point when they were cyber-bullying her. You said that you had seen people say they did, and I was illustrating how those people were wrong. Finn stopped, and was pretty reluctant to begin with, but Puck and Artie had a conversation during "Never Been Kissed" where Artie asked if Puck could push him down the back staircase because there were less people there. Puck apparently still picks on people, but the difference is, we know his home life isn't so great. This doesn't excuse his actions, but it explains them and gives his character depth (and Artie has been helping him with his CharacterDevelopment, so it's going away). The cartoon reference ''is'' more accurate than you would think. The characters of Glee are basically living cartoons. They're larger than life, and more stereotypical than the stereotypes they're based on. Will (at the start of the series) was such an everyman that people found him bland, Rachel's diva behaviour was so over the top that people found her incredibly annoying, Kurt isn't just gay, he's '''GAY''' which many people found offensive, and Sue is so mean that it CrossesTheLineTwice because ''no one'' could get away with half of what she does in real life. Over time, the characters mellowed out a bit, and people got used to the show being a little over the top, so we tend not to notice as much now as we did in the initial thirteen episodes. The Looney Tunes thing wasn't about the actual things they do (P.S. Sam and Ralph never used dynamite, Sam usually just punched Ralph in the face or redirected his traps when Ralph tried to steal the sheep; you might be thinking of the Road Runner shorts) but about their reactions at the end of the day ("Good night, Sam" "See you tomorrow, Ralph") after literally just being mortal enemies. The situation is not exactly the same, but the parallels are there. Yes, bullying happens in real life, but the bullies are rarely courteous enough to hold someone's coat so it doesn't get dirty. ''That's'' the humour. Finally, the key thing to remember is that shows evolve. The reaction to a gag in a show's first few episodes shouldn't really be used as a precedent for a major storyline in the second season. Glee started as a dark comedy, but it has moved into the territory of a more traditional (if musical) dramedy. The tone of the show has changed since the original dumpster-ing, so our expectations of the characters should change with it. And to actually address what I think was your original point: People didn't focus on the bullying in the first season much because the ''show'' didn't focus on the bullying much. This isn't because it was trying to trivialize bullying, but because it had Quinn's pregnancy to worry about. The pregnancy arc was the through-line of Season One, so all other stories took a backseat until their day in the limelight. The Karofsky arc ''is'' the through-line of Season Two, so the issue is getting much more focus. "The Substitute" was the first time that something Karofsky ''said'' had actually scared Kurt. You can tell during "Never Been Kissed" and even before that the physical abuse is starting to get to him, but it's very difficult to discuss intentions behind physical abuse because it's pretty obvious what they are. Because of what Kurt knows about Karofsky, he knows that the threat was serious, so it frightened him, making it the easiest and most recent example of the bullying. People aren't really ignoring what came before, but what has happened most recently is easiest to talk about. (P.S. Thank you so much for arguing with me. I've written university papers shorter than this discussion, but none are as fun as having an actual debate)
*** They said Quinn had a point in saying that Rachel should be sterilised. You're right, I was thinking of Road Runners; I don't know anything about the other with Sam and Ralph. Thank you for arguing so politely with me. I love debate but rarely engage in it. I usually end up opposite of someone who either directly attacks me or makes me feel as if my opinions have no value.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Furt (episode)]]
!!Kurt went from being a pretty well-rounded character into full-on GodModeSue this episode.
* The entire Glee Club held an intervention to protect him, plus he was able to whip up the entire wedding all by himself and Sue went completely {{OOC}} just to stick up for him. Plus his GayAesop at the end felt even more {{Anvilicious}} than normal for the series.
** In what universe are you living where Kurt is a GodModeSue? God Mode Sue is so powerful that ''they'' need to save everyone ''else's'' asses. The other glee clubbers held the intervention of their own accord, Kurt had nothing to do with that. And they did it because he is their friend and he was being hurt. The wedding was not extravagant, it seemed pretty small (probably thanks to Finn pointing out things like the doves) and he said that he had wedding catalogues under his bed, so it's not unlikely that he would just pick what was best for the time of year. Burt and Carol seem like the type to just let him do whatever. Sue was not out of character. She gave her reason for being so sympathetic: her sister. Add that to the fact that a death threat was issued and it was obvious that the situation called for her to actually be serious about it. We've seen similar behaviour in short bursts from Sue, but it usually involves just Will and not any of the students. And finally, the episode did not have a "Gay Aesop" it had an Anti-Bullying and Acceptance Aesop. I believe that's everything.
** Okay, so Kurt's not a God Mode Sue, he's a BlackHoleSue instead. All of reality warped to be about him this episode. For God's sake, Carol--whose first husband was killed in the army before their son could know his father, and hasn't dated in sixteen years--dedicated her '''wedding speech''' to Kurt. Everyone standing up to Karofsky for him was a nice touch, but everything about the wedding--from Kurt planning it, to Carol and Finn waxing poetic on how awesome he is, to the whole bloody Glee club doing a song and dance dedicated to him--was just too much. Oh, and [[ShootTheShaggyDog he ends up transferring anyway]]. I think at this point, Karofsky would know to leave Kurt alone since he almost got expelled and people are watching him now (if nothing else, it's creating tension within the football team and even Coach Bieste would step in before that goes too far). Don't get me wrong, Kurt is one of my favorite characters, and I've defended him when people complained about the focus on him this season. But "Furt" made me eat my words.
** Sorry, I still don't see it. I think I've already pointed out why Kurt planned the wedding; because they wanted to do it soon and Kurt plans (fictional) weddings for fun. He already had an autumn wedding planned, as well as clearly having the best taste out of the four of them. It's not unusual for a mixed family to make their wedding about the ''whole'' family, not just the significant other. Carol is making sure that Kurt knows she thinks that they're as good as blood related. And Finn knows that Kurt has been feeling down, so he's doing the same ''and'' apologizing for his previous behaviour at the same time. He may have been a little over-emphatic, but let's face it, Finn's kind of like that anyway. The Glee Club singing "Just the Way You Are" was an extension of that, but the camera made it pretty clear that Finn, at least, was also singing to his mother. As for Kurt transferring, the entire point of this arc is that bullying is hard to stop. The school board isn't going to do anything about Karofsky, even if he does step out of line a bit. Unless Kurt tells someone that Karofsky kissed him, he's not going to do something bad enough to make someone ''do'' something, and Kurt's obviously not willing to take that chance...yet. I don't know, I felt that this episode was probably the most "real" in a long time. The characters all seemed to behave more like ''people'' rather than living cartoons (which isn't a bad thing, that's just how they usually are).
** Speaking as someone who's been critical of Kurt in the past and DoubleStandard {{Aesop}}s, Kurt was in no form a GodModeSue or a BlackHoleSue. 1) As previous stated, the idea that Kurt was able to plan a wedding is not out of the realm of believability. Especially since he got his classmates to perform for free. Considering what little time Kurt was able to redecorate his and Finn's room, it's pretty believable that he could think up a plan for a wedding. 2) As for Sue feeling sympathy. Although she can be quite rude and condescending, she also remembered who sister being bullied for "being different." So yes, it is in her character to come to Kurt's defense in that situation because it's similar to how her own sister was bullied. As for Finn pulling out a number for Kurt. 3) ND being protective of Kurt? It's already been shown that the group is a {{Nakama}}. The guys wanted to jump Jessie last season for what he did to Rachel and later Finn and Puck vandalize their vehicles. They're not just suddenly being protective of everyone. 4) Finn's musical number was his apology. Finn had been intentionally distant and neglectful towards Kurt because he's still trying to protect his rep. So Finn rightfully apologized because he '''was''' wrong.
*** Ok, I'll concede on him planning the wedding, and I clearly stated that I had no problems with ND standing up to Karofsky. I just think Finn should have made amends with Kurt behind the scenes rather than make a whole song and dance about his greatness, and let Burt and Carol have their night. And you'd think Carol would be more focused on her husband-to-be than his kid.
*** The boy who is about to become her stepson is in the middle of a major crisis and you think she ''isn't'' going to run to his aid? If there is one thing we know about Burt Hummel, it's that his son is number 1 in his life. Accepting Kurt publicly and unconditionally is one of the greatest proofs that Carol loves Burt. As for the song and dance, Glee is a musical. That's the kind of thing the show does. If there's any way at all to fit a song in, the characters will do it.
**** Pretty much every TV show will have several episodes that focus on one character. It doesn't make them a BlackHoleSue.
**** I think they way Glee is going each season will have at least one major MarySue (or Character arc, depending on your point of view) of some fashion. In the first season it was Rachel (Kurt too, but for the most part the focus was on her). In season 2 it's clearly Kurt. Season 3 may choose to focus closely on another character and give them a ton of attention and development.
*** I most defend Kurt and feel that the ND was awesome, but good lord the wedding was awkward and weird to watch.
** Am I the only person who felt like Kurt suffered from in-universe {{Ukefication}} this episode? It's understandable that the whole Karofsky issue would upset him and reveal his vulnerabilities, but it seemed like every other scene he appeared in had him crying or otherwise looking like a delicate flower to drum up sympathy for the character. Meanwhile a lot of the other scenes looked as if they were trying to play up his innocent CuteShotaroBoy look with the lighting and angles and expressions, which ends up being a bit creepy instead now that his actor looks [[{{Bishonen}} older]]. Plus the whole "Porcelain" comment? Unless it was supposed to be massive LampshadeHanging or sarcasm he's shown himself to be anything but. I like Kurt and I would be pleased that he's getting more screen time but not if they [[CharacterDerailment derail him]] from the snarky wit that made him entertaining in the first place in order to turn him into TheMessiah.
*** Just for the record, I thought the "porcelain" thing was sort of a less-offensive synonym for, say, "pale prettyboy", like a porcelain doll, not that he was weak. Sue ''was'' basically saying that she actually respected him enough to let him choose a less hurtful nickname (than her top three), which she had never before done onscreen, which I think would go counter to her calling Kurt fragile.
** That's always bugged me about him. His character is so passive most of the time. It seems like every episode, someone is either defending him or making some heartwarming outreach to him. But the number of times he's actually done that to someone else are way fewer.
** I think some perspective is needed here. Kurt is a sixteen year old boy who is being systematically bullied violently, emotionally and in a way that resembles sexual harrassment. To say that crying is 'weak' and 'uke' and to imply that he somehow needs to be stronger is pretty insulting and victim blaming. Also, Kurt got nearly NO positive reinforcement last series outside of a few specific characters, whereas people like Finn got half the series dedicated to how awesome they are and how sad their girlfriends lying to them is and how the club literally depends on them. This series, it's his turn to have people go actually, Kurt, you're part of our family too. They're just spreading it around a bit.
** That's all true, but that still doesn't change the fact that a wedding is not the time or place to heap praises on someone besides the couple. That's ''their'' day. Social Grace 101.
*** That's true...at a normal wedding. But this is a new mixed family, and one where the kids are older. I've been to similar weddings (although, with younger children) and it's fairly normal for a fair bit of it to be about how one spouse has accepted the other's children as their own. Finn had some issues with the wedding at the start of the episode, so by calling Kurt his brother, it's a sign that yes, he is okay with Carol getting remarried. A mixed family wedding is not ''just'' about the couple, it's about the whole family.
*** After rewatching the episode, Finn's the only one who really made his speech about Kurt. Burt addressed him briefly when he was talking about the years after his wife died (which is to be expected), and Carol said something about gaining a son ''and'' a friend, but addressed most of her speech to ''Finn''. Even the first half of Finn's speech was about his mom before he kind of flipped it around to talk about his feelings about gaining a brother. And even ''that'' was to show his mom that he was okay with having a new family.
!! Rachel and Santana
* "You don't have a boyfriend on the football team, so gtfo." It's possible Rachel was still pissed at Santana for trying to claw her eyes out last ep, but that was still a cold thing to say when their primary concern was helping Kurt.
** While it was... well annoying, let's face it: It was completely in character. I was more annoyed that Mercedes wasn't invinted (or created the whole thing herself), dating a football player or not, she still suppose to be Kurt's bestfriend / FagHag.
*** True, but the point of the meeting was to get their boyfriends to pull and intervention in the locker room. Mercedes doesn't have that connection, so she wasn't invited. Which is also in-character for Rachel.
!! Quinn and Sam got engaged
* Now I get that's it's just a promise ring, so no need to point that out. But the fact that Sam got down on one knee and asked the girl he wasn't even officially dating yet (which also made no sense continuity wise but I concede) and had only known for 6 weeks and said that one day he wanted to marry her was just bizarre. And that Quinn, who is typically one of the most level-headed people on the show, agreed at the end was even weirder. Sam is a sixteen year old boy who went to an all boys school, he's not in love, he's probably just never had a serious girlfriend before! Plus that the scene before he did it involved him basically saying "I want to be popular more than anything" and that makes it seem like that's the only reason he's after Quinn. Plus previous statements from her make it seem like that's the only reason she likes him too. To top it off the way he proposed was way creepier than I think it was meant to be. Maybe they're trying for a whole CantBuyMeLove story for those two but if they are a proposal should have come much later.
** Plus what happened to the Quinn and Puck storyline. Didn't he say he loved her in Journey? Why haven't they even talked since then?
*** Because Quinn obviously doesn't feel the same way. And because Puck is dating Santana. She says so at the football girlfriend's meeting.
** If you watch the scene again, Quinn's initial reaction is to point out the same arguments as you did. It's only later that she changes her mind about wearing the ring. To this troper, Sam definitely got carried away, but he's essentially trying to say that he's going to try and take their relationship seriously. Earlier in the episode, Quinn denies that they're dating (despite all evidence to the contrary), so her putting the ring on is essentially saying that she won't run away from relationships anymore, and is going to take it seriously too. As for the popularity thing, I saw it less as "Sam wants Quinn because he wants to be popular" and more "Sam wants to be popular because he doesn't think he deserves Quinn otherwise".
!! What the hell happened to '''Courage'''?
* Doesn't Kurt's transferring to Dalton COMPLETELY contradict the moral of "Never Been Kissed"? It doesn't even seem necessary. Karofsky almost got expelled for his bullying. People are now watching him at school, at home, and on the football team. He's on thin ice. '''Kurt fucking won.''' He didn't have to go anywhere. All this does is [[UnfortunateImplications send a bad message]] that the only solution is running away, especially if they're doing this bullying storyline for the kids watching. Not every gay teen can go off to an expensive private school. Burt and Carol don't even have the tuition money for Dalton themselves. They had to spend their honeymoon money which they'd been saving for awhile. What are they gonna do next year and the year after? Especially if they're buying a new house too, and tuition for a private school can easily equal a new house in a couple years. I acknowledge that Kurt might have the understandable fear of being not only physically but sexually assaulted, but I think even Karofsky knows not to take it that far. And if Kurt's that worried about his safety, show him taking Karate lessons or something. Let him take his protection into his own hands rather than hiding behind the straight boys.
** I think it was to show [[SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped how bad bullying can be]], also, is not like the bullying storyline is over. Edit: You can also interpret as a descontruction.
** First: Kurt's a junior. He'll only need two years (counting the current one) at Dalton. More importantly, the school board is clearly not going to do anything about the bullying. It doesn't matter that he's being watched. Unless he does something worse than he has already done, he's not going anywhere. And if he ''does'' do something that gets him in serious trouble and he STILL doesn't get expelled, then he'll just be back with ''more'' hatred for Kurt. At this point, he basically needs to cross the MoralEventHorizon for the higher-ups to actually DO something.
** I have indeed noticed this "contradiction." But who can deny that the bullying has escalated far even to the extent of a sexual predator. And Kurt feels that he can't be obligated to have his friends protect him all the time ("It's really none of your business"). Agreeing with the troper above me, it can be interpreted as Descontruction and ultimately points to the reality of the [[SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped careless school board that failed to take bullying seriously (The Phoebe Prince case) and underestimating a bully's motivation will led to death]].
** TruthInTelevision: [[Tropers/SilverShades I]] have been bullied for YEARS (a bad combination of Asperger's and being MistakenForGay) and with the school board not doing shit. After having my life threatened five days into the school year it took my mom getting a lawyer to actually have anything be done about that ONE person. And there's still the slightly annoying people trowing things at me and claiming "He shouldn't get special treatment because [[BerserkButton he's retarded."]] The chick was very fucking lucky I don't hti women. Kurt was lucky the principal felt like taking any action when my school has five and nothing was done.
** Also, remember the bit at the start of the episode? Karofsky scared the shit out of Kurt just by standing way too close to him and taking the statue. He didn't need to so much as lay a finger on Kurt or say a single threatening word to terrify him. Sure, after the expulsion and his return everyone would have been watching him, but since the grounds for taking action are either physical harm or threatening another student's life, there would have been nothing anyone could have done, because Karofsky would have understood that nobody could do anything if he did nothing to Kurt- and he wouldn't have hurt him, just continued to scare the shit out of him.
** If it's bad enough that ''Sue'' is giving up a good deal of political power for freedom to help one student in one respect (as far as she let on top Kurt, anyway), and his friends are getting into dangerous (if one-sided) fights to act as pre-emptive bodyguards, it's better to go somewhere else. A good deal of that was for him to feel more safe, although that would be disheartening for any closeted Lima kids who saw him as a role model and may have soon come out, but I'm sure at least part of it was that he didn't want the other people getting involved and potentially getting hurt even worse, and a paraphrase of "You're not omnipotent, even collectively" was a (certainly true) way to convince them it wasn't just for them.
!!Tuition
* How is a single-time payment equivalent to the cost of a honeymoon going to pay more than year and a half of tuition and school costs for as expensive a place as Dalton Academy? If Burt couldn't afford that as a regular expense, and Finn's mom's salary is barely enough to pay for two people's food and a one-bedroom trailer, how is it that they could have possibly planned a honeymoon that would have cost so much had they gone? Was it a lie to make Kurt feel better about the expense, as long as he didn't think too much about the math, or a, I ''vastly'' underestimating the cost of a short (though unusually expensive) two-person vacation or overestimating how expensive high-class private schools are?
** I thought it was weird that the expenses were even an issue at all. It's always been implied that Burt makes very good money, with owning his own lucrative business and everything. It's always been shown that Kurt and Burt live very well up to this point (nice clothes, expensive cars, telling Finn that they'd knock out a wall and add an addition to the house as though it was no biggie) so this "saving all our money for the Honeymoon" came pretty much out of nowhere. Sure, it will cost more than usual to maintain a household with four people as opposed to two, but not to the point of having to save up for a short trip for two to Hawaii.
** Tuition for a private high school can easily run about $25,000. Even for Burt that would be a significant chunk of change.

!! Sam the "leader."
* Why does he get all the credit for the confrontation with Karofsky and is called things like "The Epitome of a leader?" Artie and Mike intitiated the entire thing and all Sam did was get his ass kicked. Seriously, he didn't even put up a decent fight!
** Because Sam took it much further than Mike and Artie did.
** Yes, but if he were a real leader he would have initiated it rather than waiting for someone else to man up.
*** Quinn probably didn't tell him it was happening. It was Rachel's idea, and she was pretty emphatic that she was not dating Sam so she probably ignored the idea altogether.
**** That still doesn't answer the question of why everyone considered him the big damn hero. He wasn't leading, he was following someone else's lead.
*** True, but he's the only one who threw a punch. And these are high schoolers we're talking about. They're easily impressed by that.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Special Education]]
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[[folder: Sue the Grinch]]
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