Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 521 (click to see context) from:
*** The part about Amory killing Rhaenys seems to have been AdaptedOut in the show, as the Mountain is specifically mentioned as killing Elia's ''children''.
to:
*** The part about Amory killing Rhaenys seems to have been AdaptedOut in the show, as the Mountain is specifically mentioned mentioned, by both Oberyn and Gregor himself, as killing Elia's ''children''.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 359 (click to see context) from:
** It's easy to forget that Tywi] ''hates'' Tyrion.
to:
** It's easy to forget that Tywi] Tywin ''hates'' Tyrion.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** Nope, he asks specifically about killing Ned. The issue of capturing is not even mentioned.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Which is actually correct. By the equivalent time period in the real world, longswords were not commonly used except in opem battle because they were simply too big. In a pitched battle (or in the closed in quarters of the Red Keep), the longsword takes longer to draw, is longer and heavier, and basically that much more difficult to wield. Given that they were designed for two hands, it naturally precludes the use of a shield or parrying weapon and actually has less reach despite its greater length. The arming sword offers more flexibility, especially for a fighter like the Hound who makes great use of fisticuffs and grappling during combat.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Asskicking Equals Authority has been renamed.
Changed line(s) 181 (click to see context) from:
** It's precisely because he's "obsessed with his past glory days" that he thinks he doesn't need guards. I get the impression that Robert is a firm believer in AsskickingEqualsAuthority (it is after all how he got the throne) and he thinks that only a man who can't defend himself needs guarding (and of course he's blind to the fact that he himself has grown fat, lazy and careless).
to:
** It's precisely because he's "obsessed with his past glory days" that he thinks he doesn't need guards. I get the impression that Robert is a firm believer in AsskickingEqualsAuthority AsskickingLeadsToLeadership (it is after all how he got the throne) and he thinks that only a man who can't defend himself needs guarding (and of course he's blind to the fact that he himself has grown fat, lazy and careless).
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** You make some good points, but the fact still remains that the Dothraki don't have armor or weapons designed for piercing armor (The show even made a point of that with Jora's duel with a blood rider). So I'm just picturing knights and armored men-at-arms laughing as the arakhs and arrows bounce harmlessly off their armor as they mow down the Dothraki in droves. As for the point about Darnerys leading the Dorthraki, the show seemed to make it pretty clear that neither Dany nor Drogo was capable of restraining the Dothraki's primal urges for rape and pillaging. She may have been able to do in the later seasons when the Dothraki made up a fraction of her army, and she had dragons to help enforce her edicts, but I can't see her keeping them in check when they are her entire army. So they would go around raping and pillaging with wild abandon, and Dany's claim to the throne would lose all relevance. No one would care about it when she's leading a foreign hoard of rapist looters who need to be stopped at any cost. And no one would submit to them to no matter who their leader is.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
***A fair point, but as I mentioned, they'd surrender to ''Darnerys'' not Dothraki, which is important as Darnerys has serious claim to the Throne adn that counts for more than you might think. Another thing is that an army of 100,000 isn't that impressive when you consider what that army probably is. Tywin was a rich man and he only had an army of around 60,000 total (incuding a force of 20,000 that were his personal levies) so an army of 100,000 is going to include a lot of arrow fodder and poorly trained peasant mobs along with forces that would dissapear as soon as the harvest hoad to come in (as mentioned by Catelin Stark). Also, as Robert mentioned, "only a fool fights Dothraki in an open field" and we have seen large forces of light cavaly and horse archers destroy larger formations of heavy infantry and cavalry in real life (most famously in the Crusades), and we have also seen the strategy known as "Defeat in Detail" where a smaller force splits up larger forces to defeat them piecemeal, a real threat as to engage the fast Dothraki would necessitate splitting up forces in an attempt to encircle or you'd never catch them as they'd ride ahead of your armies filling your front ranks with arrows. In the show proper, we see people surrender to Darnerys and they were (except for Kings Landing) mostly spared. The Dothraki might not be a curbstomp knock out blow for the Seven Kingdoms, but the fragile political situation coupled with the self interest and disinterest of the Lords of defending each others lands would mean that Darnerys would be able to make signnificant gains.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** I just have to disagree here. The fact of the matter is that light cavalry just isn't a big difference maker. They are useful, sure, but they don't single-handedly win battles against well provisioned and armored professional armies, much less wars. In order to have any chance in battle, the Dothraki would need heavy shock troops. Men equipped with tools like long spears, heavy armor, shields, and crossbows. Without that, well armored knights and men-at-arms would mow down the Dothraki down with ease, even if they are outnumbered. 40,000 may be a big number by Westeros standards, but Renly was able to raise an army of nearly 100,000. In any case, that 40,000 wouldn't remain so for long. Disease and battle would thin out their numbers and they would have no reinforcements to replace the men they lose, since no one is going to join a hoard of foreign rapists and looters no matter what they think of Dany's claim to the throne. It just seems like Robert is really overestimating the threat from them. Sure, the Dothraki could spread all kinds of terror and destruction against poorly defended villages, but they wouldn't stand a chance against a well armored and supplied professional army. As such, they wouldn't really be much of a threat to the crown. Plus the idea of any lord surrendering their lands to the Dorthraki seems silly. It's not like the Dorthraki are known for treating their conquered enemies well. The Westeros lords would be more likely to fight to the death than submit to that.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
**To explain this, I need to explain about the Dothraki. They are not farmers, shepards or anything like that. They are a society of bandits and raiders; They would sustain themselves from the victims they kill. The Dothraki are light cavalry/horse archers; They are lightning fast and are basically a hard counter to the Westerosi tactics of mass infantry formations and heavy cavalry. Basically, the amount of damage they would do to the kingdom would be horrific, and (as Robert says) it is possible that the raiding would so weaken his authority that it would be inevitable that some would make peace and ally with Darnerys just to make the killing stop. The next thing you need to understand is that this is Westeros, where 20,000 men is considered a large army. 40,000 horse riders is slighty more than the entire Northern Army that marched south with Rob Stark, so 40,000 horse riders is more than enough to force a number of lords to bend the knee. From there it's a domino effect of lords capitulating one after the other, and Robert fears that many lords would sit on the fence to see who would win before making a decision. A large, fast, mobile army that fully sustains itself from the land and is highly motivated while being united under the leadership of a single powerful leader who is extremely hostile towards you is a really bad thing irregardless of who you are, so Robert is more than justified in being seriously worried about it.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** It's said that Arya takes after her aunt Lyanna, so in that event he knows she's definitely his.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** The part about Amory killing Rhaenys seems to have been AdaptedOut in the show, as the Mountain is specifically mentioned as killing Elia's ''children''.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
moved from main
[[folder:Jaime and Bran]]
* Why, Jaime, oh why? Why didn't you invite Bran into your den of iniquity so you could have snapped his neck, [[InThatOrder THEN]] throw him down? I seriously can't understand that. You had time, you had strength, you had the perfect opportunity? There were no coroners back then.
** I always assumed, he wasn't sure, he would be able to do it. Jaime is a horrible person at this point, but he is not a sociopath. He does have qualms about killing a child, he just ignores them for Cersei's sake. So, in my opinion, he kills him in a way that requires as little actual involvement as possible. Note, how he doesn't even look at Bran the moment he pushes him, as if distancing himself from his own deed. Inviting the kid in and snapping his neck would not allow Jaime psychologically downplay the fact that he is personally and willingly murdering a child.
** Or they could do an examination of the body, if Bran died, and found out that he didn't die from the fall.
** Even without coroners, a master would be able to tell the difference between "killed by fall" and "neck snapped". Considering Bran survived the fall in the first place, it probably wouldn't be high enough to cause injuries that would cover up the specific injuries caused by grabbing someone's neck and breaking it.
** Although Cersei didn't actually want him to kill Bran, in the book at least. She mentions at one point that her idea would have been to intimidate him into keeping quiet, but Jaime acted rashly.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:The not-rotted bodies...]]
* Okay, so the bodies the Night Watch bring in from beyond the Wall haven't rotted, so Samwell correctly assumes foul play. Do these men not understand the concept of freezing things to keep them from rotting? Especially in an area so far removed from civilization, you'd think they would freeze their meat to keep it fresh. Or do they just think that it doesn't apply to humans?
** In the novel, it's clearer that bodies do not rot even when they're removed from the ice.
** The Wall Weeps, it's not Winter yet and the bodies were in the open. They also do store meat in the Wall.
** Just because it's cold up there north of the Wall doesn't mean it's cold enough to preserve a body indefinitely. The cold would reduce the rot but the body should still smell.[[/folder]]
* Why, Jaime, oh why? Why didn't you invite Bran into your den of iniquity so you could have snapped his neck, [[InThatOrder THEN]] throw him down? I seriously can't understand that. You had time, you had strength, you had the perfect opportunity? There were no coroners back then.
** I always assumed, he wasn't sure, he would be able to do it. Jaime is a horrible person at this point, but he is not a sociopath. He does have qualms about killing a child, he just ignores them for Cersei's sake. So, in my opinion, he kills him in a way that requires as little actual involvement as possible. Note, how he doesn't even look at Bran the moment he pushes him, as if distancing himself from his own deed. Inviting the kid in and snapping his neck would not allow Jaime psychologically downplay the fact that he is personally and willingly murdering a child.
** Or they could do an examination of the body, if Bran died, and found out that he didn't die from the fall.
** Even without coroners, a master would be able to tell the difference between "killed by fall" and "neck snapped". Considering Bran survived the fall in the first place, it probably wouldn't be high enough to cause injuries that would cover up the specific injuries caused by grabbing someone's neck and breaking it.
** Although Cersei didn't actually want him to kill Bran, in the book at least. She mentions at one point that her idea would have been to intimidate him into keeping quiet, but Jaime acted rashly.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:The not-rotted bodies...]]
* Okay, so the bodies the Night Watch bring in from beyond the Wall haven't rotted, so Samwell correctly assumes foul play. Do these men not understand the concept of freezing things to keep them from rotting? Especially in an area so far removed from civilization, you'd think they would freeze their meat to keep it fresh. Or do they just think that it doesn't apply to humans?
** In the novel, it's clearer that bodies do not rot even when they're removed from the ice.
** The Wall Weeps, it's not Winter yet and the bodies were in the open. They also do store meat in the Wall.
** Just because it's cold up there north of the Wall doesn't mean it's cold enough to preserve a body indefinitely. The cold would reduce the rot but the body should still smell.[[/folder]]
Changed line(s) 505 (click to see context) from:
to:
[[folder:Where are ''any'' of Catelyn's guards?]]
* Catelyn appears to arrive at Renly's camp with precisely no guards or entourage at all, and leaves with no guards as well, save for Brienne. So the mother of the self proclaimed King in the North is prancing around Westeros with no protection on the road whatsoever?
** There are two guards with her when she arrived. You can tell they're Northmen by their plain style of armor in contrast to the soldiers gathered at Storm's End. Presumably there were more guards waiting on the outskirts of the camp just Catelyn Stark got separated during the chaos that occurred.
** I would assume that Renly's people weren't about to escort a large group of armed and armored men, from one of the opposing armies, right up in front of their king. Even if they were supposed to be there for a "peace envoy." [[/folder]]
* Catelyn appears to arrive at Renly's camp with precisely no guards or entourage at all, and leaves with no guards as well, save for Brienne. So the mother of the self proclaimed King in the North is prancing around Westeros with no protection on the road whatsoever?
** There are two guards with her when she arrived. You can tell they're Northmen by their plain style of armor in contrast to the soldiers gathered at Storm's End. Presumably there were more guards waiting on the outskirts of the camp just Catelyn Stark got separated during the chaos that occurred.
** I would assume that Renly's people weren't about to escort a large group of armed and armored men, from one of the opposing armies, right up in front of their king. Even if they were supposed to be there for a "peace envoy." [[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 210 (click to see context) from:
*** ↑ The rebellion did solidify Robert's rule through his display of strength, but it did not unite all the houses (aside from everyone thinking the revolt was stupid). It was a relatively small-scale affair in which the only major Houses involved were Baratheon, Stark and Lannister (who haven't quite started their feud yet, nor did they muster all their available forces), and the Greyjoys were still "outnumbered ten to one".
to:
*** ↑ The rebellion did solidify Robert's rule through his display of strength, but it did not unite all the houses (aside from everyone thinking the revolt was stupid). It was a relatively small-scale affair in which the only major Houses involved were Baratheon, Stark and Lannister (who haven't quite started their feud yet, nor did they muster all their available forces), and the Greyjoys were still "outnumbered ten to one".
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 210 (click to see context) from:
*** ↑The rebellion did solidify Robert's rule, but it did not unite all the houses. It was a relatively small-scale affair in which the only major Houses involved were Baratheon, Stark and Lannister (who haven't quite started their feud yet, nor did they muster all their available forces) on one side, and the Greyjoys were still "outnumbered ten to one".
to:
*** ↑The ↑ The rebellion did solidify Robert's rule, rule through his display of strength, but it did not unite all the houses. houses (aside from everyone thinking the revolt was stupid). It was a relatively small-scale affair in which the only major Houses involved were Baratheon, Stark and Lannister (who haven't quite started their feud yet, nor did they muster all their available forces) on one side, forces), and the Greyjoys were still "outnumbered ten to one". one".
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 209 (click to see context) from:
*** But look at what happened during the Greyjoy rebellion. Balon led the rebellion because he figured Robert's rule was unstable and disorganized having only recently taken the throne after a long bloody war. But the rebellion only managed to solidify Robert's rule by uniting all the houses against the Iron Islands. If they showed that much unity to fight the Ironborn, then surely they would be even more unified against the Dorthraki.
to:
*** But look at what happened during the Greyjoy rebellion.Rebellion. Balon led the rebellion because he figured Robert's rule was unstable and disorganized having only recently taken the throne after a long bloody war. But the rebellion only managed to solidify Robert's rule by uniting all the houses against the Iron Islands. If they showed that much unity to fight the Ironborn, then surely they would be even more unified against the Dorthraki.Dothraki.
*** ↑The rebellion did solidify Robert's rule, but it did not unite all the houses. It was a relatively small-scale affair in which the only major Houses involved were Baratheon, Stark and Lannister (who haven't quite started their feud yet, nor did they muster all their available forces) on one side, and the Greyjoys were still "outnumbered ten to one".
*** ↑The rebellion did solidify Robert's rule, but it did not unite all the houses. It was a relatively small-scale affair in which the only major Houses involved were Baratheon, Stark and Lannister (who haven't quite started their feud yet, nor did they muster all their available forces) on one side, and the Greyjoys were still "outnumbered ten to one".
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** But look at what happened during the Greyjoy rebellion. Balon led the rebellion because he figured Robert's rule was unstable and disorganized having only recently taken the throne after a long bloody war. But the rebellion only managed to solidify Robert's rule by uniting all the houses against the Iron Islands. If they showed that much unity to fight the Ironborn, then surely they would be even more unified against the Dorthraki.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 202,205 (click to see context) from:
** That might explain the punching, but why did he leave Ned there? Fun is fun, but business is business, they still ''needed'' Ned as a prisoner.[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why was Robert so worried about Daenerys leading a Dorhraki invasion force into Westeros?]]
* It is stated that Daenerys has about 40,000-50,000 Dorthraki. Even if they could get across the ocean (which would be very difficult in regard to getting enough ships, and getting past the presumed Westeros navy sent to oppose them), they would still have no armor, no logistical system to keep them supplied, no base of operations, and no popular support. How exactly would a mere 40,000-50,000 light cavalry be a big threat to take over Westeros? They just don't have the numbers to pull it off. No one in Westeros would join Daenerys in her campaign to take the throne. Not after she leads a foreign army to rape, pillage, enslave, and loot everything and everyone in their path. Her claim to the throne wouldn't matter. Everyone would see her as a grave threat to the realm that needs to be stopped immediately. In light of this, why was Robert so concerned about Daenerys invading Westeros? If anything, you'd think he'd welcome it. A Dorthraki invasion force would bring all the feuding houses of Westeros together to unite against a common threat. Everyone would stop their petty bickering over titles and riches in order to turn back the foreign hoard of savages who are ravaging the land. Not only would the invasion force not be strong enough to take the throne, but it would almost assuredly help unite all the rival houses under Robert's banner. So why was he so concerned?
[[folder: Why was Robert so worried about Daenerys leading a Dorhraki invasion force into Westeros?]]
* It is stated that Daenerys has about 40,000-50,000 Dorthraki. Even if they could get across the ocean (which would be very difficult in regard to getting enough ships, and getting past the presumed Westeros navy sent to oppose them), they would still have no armor, no logistical system to keep them supplied, no base of operations, and no popular support. How exactly would a mere 40,000-50,000 light cavalry be a big threat to take over Westeros? They just don't have the numbers to pull it off. No one in Westeros would join Daenerys in her campaign to take the throne. Not after she leads a foreign army to rape, pillage, enslave, and loot everything and everyone in their path. Her claim to the throne wouldn't matter. Everyone would see her as a grave threat to the realm that needs to be stopped immediately. In light of this, why was Robert so concerned about Daenerys invading Westeros? If anything, you'd think he'd welcome it. A Dorthraki invasion force would bring all the feuding houses of Westeros together to unite against a common threat. Everyone would stop their petty bickering over titles and riches in order to turn back the foreign hoard of savages who are ravaging the land. Not only would the invasion force not be strong enough to take the throne, but it would almost assuredly help unite all the rival houses under Robert's banner. So why was he so concerned?
to:
** That might explain the punching, but why did he leave Ned there? Fun is fun, but business is business, they still ''needed'' Ned as a prisoner.[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why was Robert so worried about Daenerys leading a Dorhraki invasion force into Westeros?]]
* Itprisoner.
** This isstated that Daenerys has about 40,000-50,000 Dorthraki. Even if they could get across partially addressed when Tywin brings up the ocean (which would be very difficult in regard to getting enough ships, above and getting past the presumed Westeros navy sent to oppose them), they would still have no armor, no logistical system to keep them supplied, no base of operations, and no popular support. How exactly would a mere 40,000-50,000 light cavalry be a big threat to take over Westeros? They just don't have the numbers to pull it off. No one in Westeros would join Daenerys in her campaign to take the throne. Not after she leads a foreign army to rape, pillage, enslave, and loot everything and everyone in their path. Her claim to the throne scolds him for not killing/capturing Ned. Jaime's excuse is "[[HonorBeforeReason It wouldn't matter. Everyone would see her as a grave threat to the realm that needs to be stopped immediately. In light of this, why was Robert so concerned about Daenerys invading Westeros? If anything, you'd think he'd welcome it. A Dorthraki invasion force would bring all the feuding houses of Westeros together to unite against a common threat. Everyone would stop their petty bickering over titles and riches in order to turn back the foreign hoard of savages who are ravaging the land. Not only would the invasion force not be strong enough to take the throne, but it would almost assuredly help unite all the rival houses under Robert's banner. So why was he so concerned?have been clean]]".
[[folder: Why was Robert so worried about Daenerys leading a Dorhraki invasion force into Westeros?]]
* It
** This is
Added DiffLines:
[[folder: Why was Robert so worried about Daenerys leading a Dothraki invasion force into Westeros?]]
* It is stated that Daenerys has about 40,000-50,000 Dothraki. Even if they could get across the ocean (which would be very difficult in regard to getting enough ships, and getting past the presumed Westeros navy sent to oppose them), they would still have no armor, no logistical system to keep them supplied, no base of operations, and no popular support. How exactly would a mere 40,000-50,000 light cavalry be a big threat to take over Westeros? They just don't have the numbers to pull it off. No one in Westeros would join Daenerys in her campaign to take the throne. Not after she leads a foreign army to rape, pillage, enslave, and loot everything and everyone in their path. Her claim to the throne wouldn't matter. Everyone would see her as a grave threat to the realm that needs to be stopped immediately. In light of this, why was Robert so concerned about Daenerys invading Westeros? If anything, you'd think he'd welcome it. A Dothraki invasion force would bring all the feuding houses of Westeros together to unite against a common threat. Everyone would stop their petty bickering over titles and riches in order to turn back the foreign hoard of savages who are ravaging the land. Not only would the invasion force not be strong enough to take the throne, but it would almost assuredly help unite all the rival houses under Robert's banner. So why was he so concerned?
** He was worried that even the threat of a common foe ''still'' wouldn't be enough to unite everyone. A number of them might just hunker down (especially if their rivals were being attacked first) or try to cut a deal with her so she won't raid their lands. And if the time comes that everyone else probably prioritizes putting their petty politics aside and pairing up their parties, it might be too late.
[[/folder]]
* It is stated that Daenerys has about 40,000-50,000 Dothraki. Even if they could get across the ocean (which would be very difficult in regard to getting enough ships, and getting past the presumed Westeros navy sent to oppose them), they would still have no armor, no logistical system to keep them supplied, no base of operations, and no popular support. How exactly would a mere 40,000-50,000 light cavalry be a big threat to take over Westeros? They just don't have the numbers to pull it off. No one in Westeros would join Daenerys in her campaign to take the throne. Not after she leads a foreign army to rape, pillage, enslave, and loot everything and everyone in their path. Her claim to the throne wouldn't matter. Everyone would see her as a grave threat to the realm that needs to be stopped immediately. In light of this, why was Robert so concerned about Daenerys invading Westeros? If anything, you'd think he'd welcome it. A Dothraki invasion force would bring all the feuding houses of Westeros together to unite against a common threat. Everyone would stop their petty bickering over titles and riches in order to turn back the foreign hoard of savages who are ravaging the land. Not only would the invasion force not be strong enough to take the throne, but it would almost assuredly help unite all the rival houses under Robert's banner. So why was he so concerned?
** He was worried that even the threat of a common foe ''still'' wouldn't be enough to unite everyone. A number of them might just hunker down (especially if their rivals were being attacked first) or try to cut a deal with her so she won't raid their lands. And if the time comes that everyone else probably prioritizes putting their petty politics aside and pairing up their parties, it might be too late.
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Changed line(s) 68 (click to see context) from:
** Maybe your right. I must be mixing things up, because in the books the only Northerner he cares about and really accepts him is Robb which is clearly not what HBO is going for the show. I'll chalk Show!Theon swearing fealty to Robb up to [[WhatAnIdiot stupidity]].
to:
** Maybe your right. I must be mixing things up, because in the books the only Northerner he cares about and really accepts him is Robb which is clearly not what HBO is going for the show. I'll chalk Show!Theon Show Theon swearing fealty to Robb up to [[WhatAnIdiot stupidity]].stupidity.
