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** [[MostAnnoyingSound Because, for some completely unknown reason, they changed it for "I'll crush you!"]] Not being cheesy also isn't a justification, as The Emperor and his "Ungahh!" [[SoBadItsGood is just]]...

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** [[MostAnnoyingSound Because, for some completely unknown reason, they changed it for "I'll crush you!"]] you!" Not being cheesy also isn't a justification, as The Emperor and his "Ungahh!" [[SoBadItsGood is just]]...


*** The D&D manual itself says that "alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity. '''It is ''not'' a straightjacket for restricting your character'''." (Emphasis added by me.) So too much argument over the alignment of a character who isn't canonically given one defeats the point of the alignment system. Sure, some characters are totally freaking obvious in terms of alignment (for instance, there's no way that SonicTheHedgehog is ''anything'' but ChaoticGood), but the characters we're talking about here are more complex than that, and shouldn't be labeled so casually.

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*** The D&D manual itself says that "alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity. '''It is ''not'' a straightjacket for restricting your character'''." (Emphasis added by me.) So too much argument over the alignment of a character who isn't canonically given one defeats the point of the alignment system. Sure, some characters are totally freaking obvious in terms of alignment (for instance, there's no way that SonicTheHedgehog VideoGame/SonicTheHedgehog is ''anything'' but ChaoticGood), but the characters we're talking about here are more complex than that, and shouldn't be labeled so casually.


** Keep in mind who he's working with: Garland is basically the larval form of Chaos, the Emperor is the king of Hell itself, the Cloud of Darkness and Exdeath are EldrichAbomindation in humanoid forms who are completely obsessed with destruction, Golbez is working behind the scenes to help Cosmos and end the eternal conflict, Kefka has the powers of the Warring Triad and wants to destroy everything and everyone, Sephiroth is a super Soldier obsessed with playing mind games with Cloud, Ultimecia is a Sorceress who is basically a magical demi-god who can bend the laws of space and time over and make them her bitch and Jecht is a just a good guy who wants to reunite with Tidus and go home. Of all of the above the only one who would care or even be somewhat impressed is Kefka, and only to use as a tool to kill everyone else, which is exactly what he tries to do in the game. The others aren't that impressed and Kuja's at a major disadvantage since he's not on his home turf where he knows all the players in the game and can manipulate them from behind the scenes. Kuja is overly dramatic, which messes up his plans and makes him appear foolish. His power is impressive but so is almost everyone else's on Chaos' side.

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** Keep in mind who he's working with: Garland is basically the larval form of Chaos, the Emperor is the king of Hell itself, the Cloud of Darkness and Exdeath are EldrichAbomindation [[EldritchAbomination Eldritch Abominations]] in humanoid forms who are completely obsessed with destruction, Golbez is working behind the scenes to help Cosmos and end the eternal conflict, Kefka has the powers of the Warring Triad and wants to destroy everything and everyone, Sephiroth is a super Soldier obsessed with playing mind games with Cloud, Ultimecia is a Sorceress who is basically a magical demi-god who can bend the laws of space and time over and make them her bitch and Jecht is a just a good guy who wants to reunite with Tidus and go home. Of all of the above the only one who would care or even be somewhat impressed is Kefka, and only to use as a tool to kill everyone else, which is exactly what he tries to do in the game. The others aren't that impressed and Kuja's at a major disadvantage since he's not on his home turf where he knows all the players in the game and can manipulate them from behind the scenes. Kuja is overly dramatic, which messes up his plans and makes him appear foolish. His power is impressive but so is almost everyone else's on Chaos' side.


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!! Warning: Administrivia/SpoilersOff applies to this page. Proceed at your own risk.
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*** This is what I figure. After Chaos was defeated by the Warriors of Light, he decided to get revenge, and being a master of exploiting the StableTimeLoop, bootstrapped himself into a god. Then he got the time-traveling Ultimecia to meet up with Garland and they gathered up the rest of the villains [[spoiler:and Gabranth]] and the rest just fell into place. Essentially, Chaos was playing [[TimeyWimeyBall Blitzball with time.]]

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*** This is what I figure. After Chaos was defeated by the Warriors of Light, he decided to get revenge, and being a master of exploiting the StableTimeLoop, bootstrapped himself into a god. Then he got the time-traveling Ultimecia to meet up with Garland and they gathered up the rest of the villains [[spoiler:and Gabranth]] and Gabranth and the rest just fell into place. Essentially, Chaos was playing [[TimeyWimeyBall Blitzball with time.]]



*** [[spoiler:Dude, they managed to find playable representation of the [[VideoGame/FinalFantasyXI Final Fantasy MMORPG]] for Dissidia. I'm sure SOMEONE from VideoGame/FinalFantasyXII is going to find his way into this mess.]]
*** [[spoiler:Judge Gabranth just showed up and he is AWESOME!]]
** A fanfic this troper read (yes, this is hardly WordOfGod, but it's just speculation) posited that each ''Franchise/FinalFantasy'' BigBad acted as an agent of Chaos, which the fic presented as some kind of evil PowersThatBe. Hence why almost all of them ended up being a nihilistic OmnicidalManiac or were all along. Kind of like how [[spoiler:each BigBad in ''Franchise/SailorMoon'' turned out be an aspect of Chaos, the BigBad of the universe]].
** [[spoiler:Everyone who posted to the above ought to go [[http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/psp/file/939394/55511 here]] and read the whole thing. Chaos / Garland IS addressed, and in an ...unexpected way.]]
** Report 12, told from Garland's POV, reveals that [[spoiler:Garland was freed from Final Fantasy's StableTimeLoop and brought to World B by Shinryu]] and encountered Cid, Cosmos, and Dissidia's Chaos, who he named after his own OneWingedAngel:

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*** [[spoiler:Dude, Dude, they managed to find playable representation of the [[VideoGame/FinalFantasyXI Final Fantasy MMORPG]] for Dissidia. I'm sure SOMEONE from VideoGame/FinalFantasyXII is going to find his way into this mess.]]
mess.
*** [[spoiler:Judge Judge Gabranth just showed up and he is AWESOME!]]
AWESOME!
** A fanfic this troper read (yes, this is hardly WordOfGod, but it's just speculation) posited that each ''Franchise/FinalFantasy'' BigBad acted as an agent of Chaos, which the fic presented as some kind of evil PowersThatBe. Hence why almost all of them ended up being a nihilistic OmnicidalManiac or were all along. Kind of like how [[spoiler:each each BigBad in ''Franchise/SailorMoon'' turned out be an aspect of Chaos, the BigBad of the universe]].
universe.
** [[spoiler:Everyone Everyone who posted to the above ought to go [[http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/psp/file/939394/55511 here]] and read the whole thing. Chaos / Garland IS addressed, and in an ...unexpected way.]]
way.
** Report 12, told from Garland's POV, reveals that [[spoiler:Garland Garland was freed from Final Fantasy's StableTimeLoop and brought to World B by Shinryu]] Shinryu and encountered Cid, Cosmos, and Dissidia's Chaos, who he named after his own OneWingedAngel:



* Keep in mind that this troper has only played the first game, and please help her understand. So on the topic of Kuja, this troper is replaying ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyIX'' and has just realized something about Kuja. Namely that Kuja. Is. Bad. Ass. Seriously! He might be the single most effective villain in Final Fantasy history, barring ''maybe'' the Emperor and Kefka. Still, he's got a kill count to rival both of theirs, and he achieves the ultimate power (his mega-Trance) that he seeks, just as they do when they [[spoiler: take over hell]] and [[spoiler: screw with the Warring Triad]] respectively. Plus he [[spoiler: nukes a whole planet with minimal effort,]] so there's that. Throughout the entire game he's barely even inconvenienced by his enemies, and when he is, he turns it to his advantage in a matter of minutes. He takes a MEGAFLARE TO THE FACE and he LAUGHS. The same Mega Flare that later obliterates an entire fleet - including the last person to insult Kuja to his face. Heck, I don't even think [[spoiler: Zidane and company technically defeat him! He just sort of gets impatient and kills everyone on the battlefield with Ultima and then summons Necron...somehow...let's not get into that.]] So [[DudeWheresMyRespect why the hell does everyone treat Kuja like he's some immature, ineffective kid?]] Wouldn't the Emperor, at least, have recognized that Kuja has both power and cunning enough to rival his? And why doesn't Kuja stick up for himself in the same way he would in his home game - with a rhyming couplet and a [[PrecisionFStrike fucking]] Mega Flare '''to the face?'''
** Familiar with the saying "Act like a kid and get treated like one?" Kuja may have been as wise or dangerous than a lot of the other villains; but he acted like a pouty, narcissistic sod to the point where everybody discredited him. Honestly, if I showed up there and one of my team-mates was a girly-man in a thong, I wouldn't be taking him seriously either.

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* Keep in mind that this troper has only played the first game, and please help her understand. So on the topic of Kuja, this troper is replaying ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyIX'' and has just realized something about Kuja. Namely that Kuja. Is. Bad. Ass. Seriously! He might be the single most effective villain in Final Fantasy history, barring ''maybe'' the Emperor and Kefka. Still, he's got a kill count to rival both of theirs, and he achieves the ultimate power (his mega-Trance) that he seeks, just as they do when they [[spoiler: take over hell]] Hell and [[spoiler: screw with the Warring Triad]] Triad respectively. Plus he [[spoiler: nukes a whole planet with minimal effort,]] effort, so there's that. Throughout the entire game he's barely even inconvenienced by his enemies, and when he is, he turns it to his advantage in a matter of minutes. He takes a MEGAFLARE TO THE FACE and he LAUGHS. The same Mega Flare that later obliterates an entire fleet - including the last person to insult Kuja to his face. Heck, I don't even think [[spoiler: Zidane and company technically defeat him! He just sort of gets impatient and kills everyone on the battlefield with Ultima and then summons Necron...somehow...let's not get into that.]] So [[DudeWheresMyRespect why the hell does everyone treat Kuja like he's some immature, ineffective kid?]] Wouldn't the Emperor, at least, have recognized that Kuja has both power and cunning enough to rival his? And why doesn't Kuja stick up for himself in the same way he would in his home game - with a rhyming couplet and a [[PrecisionFStrike fucking]] Mega Flare '''to the face?'''
** Familiar Are you familiar with the saying saying, "Act like a kid and get treated like one?" one"? Kuja may have been as wise or as dangerous than as a lot of the other villains; but he acted like a pouty, narcissistic sod to the point where everybody discredited him. Honestly, if I showed up there and one of my team-mates was a girly-man in a thong, I wouldn't be taking him seriously either.



** Garland did all that while [[spoiler:being used as a weapon by Onrac. He had the powers of Chaos at the time, allowing him to defeat Omega and banish it to the Rift.]] by the time your party in FFI comes around, [[spoiler:he has killed you, become Chaos, created the Fiends of Chaos from the crystals of the past, and wiped his own memory. As he says at the end of FFI, he does this so that you will kill him, allowing the Fiends of Chaos to send him backward in time to where he becomes Chaos.]]

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** Garland did all that while [[spoiler:being being used as a weapon by Onrac. He had the powers of Chaos at the time, allowing him to defeat Omega and banish it to the Rift.]] by the time your party in FFI comes around, [[spoiler:he he has killed you, become Chaos, created the Fiends of Chaos from the crystals of the past, and wiped his own memory. As he says at the end of FFI, he does this so that you will kill him, allowing the Fiends of Chaos to send him backward in time to where he becomes Chaos.]]



* [[spoiler:How does Squall still exist if his father now, thanks to the Manikins, [[RetGone never even existed in the first place]]?]]
** Same way [[spoiler:[[Series/DoctorWho Amy Pond]]]] continued to exist after her parents fell through the crack in her wall. Chunks have been clipped out of history without anything new scrawled in to replace 'em.

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* [[spoiler:How How does Squall still exist if his father now, thanks to the Manikins, [[RetGone never even existed in the first place]]?]]
place]]?
** Same way [[spoiler:[[Series/DoctorWho Series/DoctorWho Amy Pond]]]] Pond]] continued to exist after her parents fell through the crack in her wall. Chunks have been clipped out of history without anything new scrawled in to replace 'em.



** You're right that they didn't cease to exist ''in their own games''. Yet, in terms of the Dissidia universe and the FF worlds in said universe: ''they have ceased to exist''. Once the 13th cycle ends, [[spoiler:they will not return to their original worlds. Likewise, Squall presumably disappears since he no longer has a father. My guess is that it was a delayed reaction due to being in "the eye of the storm".]]
** [[spoiler:Actually, in the character descriptions, it says that all those who were killed by Manikins were brought back after the last cycle and sent back to there own worlds like the original ten due to Cosmos finally winning.]]

* If [[spoiler:being defeated by a manikin makes you {{Ret Gone}}d from the War of Chaos and Cosmos]], why doesn't that happen for the people defeated by [[spoiler:Warrior of Light, if [=WoL=] is just a ''really'' high-quality manikin]]?
** That is a ''very'' good question. An AnachronicOrder Induced PlotHole, perhaps? And technically speaking, if [[spoiler:Cosmos were ever to fight, wouldn't the same deal apply for her since she's more or less the same as [=WoL=], only ''better'' (and with the memories of Garland/Chaos' foster mother)?]]

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** You're right that they didn't cease to exist ''in their own games''. Yet, in terms of the Dissidia universe and the FF worlds in said universe: ''they have ceased to exist''. Once the 13th cycle ends, [[spoiler:they they will not return to their original worlds. Likewise, Squall presumably disappears since he no longer has a father. My guess is that it was a delayed reaction due to being in "the eye of the storm".]]
storm".
** [[spoiler:Actually, Actually, in the character descriptions, it says that all those who were killed by Manikins were brought back after the last cycle and sent back to there own worlds like the original ten due to Cosmos finally winning.]]

winning.

* If [[spoiler:being being defeated by a manikin makes you {{Ret Gone}}d from the War of Chaos and Cosmos]], Cosmos, why doesn't that happen for the people defeated by [[spoiler:Warrior Warrior of Light, if [=WoL=] is just a ''really'' high-quality manikin]]?
manikin?
** That is a ''very'' good question. An AnachronicOrder Induced PlotHole, perhaps? And technically speaking, if [[spoiler:Cosmos Cosmos were ever to fight, wouldn't the same deal apply for her since she's more or less the same as [=WoL=], only ''better'' (and with the memories of Garland/Chaos' [=Garland/Chaos=]' foster mother)?]]mother)?



*** According to what I read on the character page, that's exactly it. They beat up the warriors so furiously, even after killing them, that [[spoiler:Shinryu just can't get anything more out of them and therefore doesn't bother to revive them for the next time around. It's not until the war is over that they are restored and sent back home.]] Though that admittedly leaves out individuals like Gabranth and Shanttoto.

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*** According to what I read on the character page, that's exactly it. They beat up the warriors so furiously, even after killing them, that [[spoiler:Shinryu Shinryu just can't get anything more out of them and therefore doesn't bother to revive them for the next time around. It's not until the war is over that they are restored and sent back home.]] Though that admittedly leaves out individuals like Gabranth and Shanttoto.



* Why did [=WoL=] seem to lose his memories of the 12th cycle if [[spoiler:he actually ''survived'' the cycle? (He was the only Warrior of Cosmos to do so, in fact!)]]

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* Why did [=WoL=] seem to lose his memories of the 12th cycle if [[spoiler:he he actually ''survived'' the cycle? (He was the only Warrior of Cosmos to do so, in fact!)]]fact!)



*** Scenario 000 revealed [[spoiler:that those who can no longer give their strength or memories to Shinryu are either erased or sent away by him and not brought back into the conflict. So it's possible that she outlived her usefulness if she wasn't brought back.]]

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*** Scenario 000 revealed [[spoiler:that that those who can no longer give their strength or memories to Shinryu are either erased or sent away by him and not brought back into the conflict. So it's possible that she outlived her usefulness if she wasn't brought back.]]



* I think it's been asked before, but what is the exact relationship between Garland and Chaos in the Dissidia series? In Dissidia, Garland explicitly states that he and Dissidia's Chaos are the same being, and that after the heroes defeat him he was sent back in time to become Chaos himself -- as he did in Final Fantasy 1. Dissidia 012 seemingly averts this by having Chaos be an artificial bioweapon created by Cid of the Luftain hundreds of years prior to the events of Final Fantasy 1. From what I've been able to understand, Garland's monologue in Report 12 indicates that he was freed from the Garland --> Final Fantasy 1 Chaos time loop by [[spoiler:Shinryu]] and brought to World B to corrupt Dissidia Chaos, who he empathized with due to the time loop in Final Fantasy 1, and that he named Dissidia Chaos after his own OneWingedAngel form. Further muddying the issue, it is stated by Penelo in Garland's 012 equipment profile that his 3rd alt. is actually what he looks like under his armour, lending credit to the Garland = Dissidia Chaos = Final Fantasy 1 Chaos theory. Another question is that if the Warrior of Light was born during the Dissidia games, how did Garland know who he was when he and Prishe came across him, but I read somewhere that WordOfGod stated that [[TimeyWimeyBall Garland was taken after his defeat at the hands of the Warrior, while the final cutscene sets the stage for the beginning of Final Fantasy 1.]]

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* I think it's been asked before, but what is the exact relationship between Garland and Chaos in the Dissidia series? In Dissidia, Garland explicitly states that he and Dissidia's Chaos are the same being, and that after the heroes defeat him he was sent back in time to become Chaos himself -- as he did in Final Fantasy 1. Dissidia 012 seemingly averts this by having Chaos be an artificial bioweapon created by Cid of the Luftain hundreds of years prior to the events of Final Fantasy 1. From what I've been able to understand, Garland's monologue in Report 12 indicates that he was freed from the Garland --> Final Fantasy 1 Chaos time loop by [[spoiler:Shinryu]] Shinryu and brought to World B to corrupt Dissidia Chaos, who he empathized with due to the time loop in Final Fantasy 1, and that he named Dissidia Chaos after his own OneWingedAngel form. Further muddying the issue, it is stated by Penelo in Garland's 012 equipment profile that his 3rd alt. is actually what he looks like under his armour, lending credit to the Garland = Dissidia Chaos = Final Fantasy 1 Chaos theory. Another question is that if the Warrior of Light was born during the Dissidia games, how did Garland know who he was when he and Prishe came across him, but I read somewhere that WordOfGod stated that [[TimeyWimeyBall Garland was taken after his defeat at the hands of the Warrior, while the final cutscene sets the stage for the beginning of Final Fantasy 1.]]


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* ''Dissidia 012'' makes it explicitly clear what the Crystals are with a cutscene right before the first storyline showing Cosmos imbuing her Warriors with her powers, and Lightning's narration that this power will manifest for them as Crystals eventually. However, this causes a number of problems, because Tidus, Terra, and Cloud were Warriors of Chaos at this time and never took part in this. Thus, there's no explanation for why they are able to manifest Crystals in the next cycle -- you ''could'' make the case for Tidus that his Crystal was meant to be Jecht's, since Jecht transferred his light to Tidus, but that doesn't work because it would fly against The Emperor's plans for him. And of course, by the end of the 12th cycle Lightning, Laguna, Vaan, Yuna, Tifa, and Kain die before manifesting their Crystals, so what happened to Cosmos' power inside them?
** Well, there are ways and ways to see. As for Tidus, like you said, Jecht gave him the power of Cosmos that was in himself. There was probably still some remnants of it inside of him, especially with how the narration mentions that Jecht's willpower was so strong that his crystal could have appeared at any second. So Emperor's plan still works (or at least, makes as much sense as anything in Final Fantasy games). As for Cloud and Terra (unmarked spoiled ahead): After Terra defeated a horde of Manikins, she arrived at Cosmos, and she granted her some of her power right there. Cloud? Well, he prayed to Cosmos while he was dying at the hands of Chaos, and Cosmos listened, and it seemed like right there she sent him a token of her power as well, so he'd awaken as her new chosen warrior during the next cycle. At least, those are my interpretations.
** And as the DoomedByCanon group fade away, they seem to be shedding Light or some sort of energy. That could very well be Cosmos's power going back to where it belongs.
** There IS an explanation; Golbez doesn't put the idea to give the Warriors enough power that it would kill her and therefore make the next cycle the very last until after 012. [=WoL=], Firion, Cloud, Zidane, and the others all got the lion's share of their crystal shaping powers at the start of 013, so the issue of the other not being there the first time is completely irrelevant.
** The final speech of Scenario 000 turns this into straight FridgeBrilliance -- the light Cosmos granted to her six fallen warriors reforms in World B, bringing her back to life.

* ''Duodecim''. Yuna's chapter. Tidus just [[TakingTheBullet took the bullet for Yuna]]. Sure, the fight was meant to show that [[BewareTheNiceOnes you don't mess with Yuna's loved ones]], but shouldn't ''Yuna'' (who was also a [[TheMedic White Mage]] in ''X'') be the one tending to Tidus while Jecht goes all PapaWolf on Emperor Mateus' ass?]
** She doesn't have any white magic spells in Duodecim. The game is pretty good about getting rid of GameplayAndStorySegregation, so her using white magic when she has none wouldn't make any sense. Also, I saw it as a bit of their personalities that aren't always shown. Jecht truly does love his son and wishes to help him, and Yuna won't stand those who hurt her friends.

* It is made clear that the 13th cycle is the only victory the Cosmos warriors have ever won; for the first twelve cycles, the Warriors of Chaos won. But in the two cycles we players see, they seem pretty un-unified. Look at the various Warriors of Chaos between the two games -- Cloud and Kuja don't want to participate, Sephiroth has his own interests and simply doesn't care, Exdeath cares but doesn't make much of an effort, Golbez is a traitor, Jecht, Tidus, and Terra are only serving Chaos because they're brainwashed, and the Cloud of Darkness has no problem with giving the enemy confidential information if it means it'll make things interesting for her. The only villains who seem actually interested in winning are Garland, The Emperor, Kefka, and Ultimecia. That said, just how did these guys keep winning for twelve rounds in a row?
** Been wondering the same thing. One of my first thoughts was that they always had the Manikins, but then that makes you wonder how the Manikins didn't kill for good more warriors by now. Another possibility is that they are just that much more powerful, which could be the case considering that, in each Final Fantasy, each character needs their whole team to ultimately defeat the BigBad. It's perhaps because of finally having Cosmos' power properly grown within them in the 13th Cycle that they were finally able to challenge them and win. But that's just a theory. One way or another, ''Duodecim'' really left some plot holes all around, if you ask me.
** Considering those killed by the Manikins are KilledOffForReal along with their exponential replacement rate, and the lack of any from previous cycles, I find it unlikely it started before the 12th. Because the purpose of the cycles are to make Chaos into the ultimate weapon, my guess is that in each of the previous cycles, his warriors would weed out as many of Cosmos's they could while any survivors would be curbstomped by Chaos; since Cosmos never seems to directly fight, a stalemate's as good as a win for Chaos. Also, since fighting regains memories while falling loses them, it's possible that after 11 consecutive wins Chaos's warriors would remember their goals and those who weren't content with fighting the same people until the end of the world lost motivation. I know some of this is probably WMG, but that's my 2 cents.
*** The reason Chaos summoned warriors in the first place was so that he wouldn't have to fight Cosmos' warriors. Though he's perfectly fine with his warriors doing what they want, since he doesn't want to force them to fight.
** Actually, during "An Unfold Tale", if I remember correctly, the Cid moogle tells you the warriors of Chaos grew stronger and stronger as they kept winning, and by the 13th cycle, the difference in strength was overwhelming. So just like it was suggested, they were strong by themselves in the first place, but after winning a few times, they grew even STRONGER and became more likely to keep ''winning'' and getting even '''STRONGER'''.
** Remember, the warriors of both sides were brought in without their memories and only slowly regained them over time. So Characters like Cloud, Kuja and Golbez didn't start out indifferent or working against their teammates, they became so over time, likely only reaching their normal personalities over several cycles. So by the time their personal quirks got in the way of their effectiveness their side was strong enough to not need their full participation.

* This may kinda mix with [[Headscratchers/HomePage Just Bugs Me]], but whatever. There's one thing I don't understand: What in the world is Lightning's relationship with roses? I played all of ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyXIII'' and I can't remember any connection from Lightning to any type of flower, yet she states in one of the Report Scenes that she felt a connection to Firion's Wild Rose. I know her HP Attacks now come with PetalPower, but that's another thing that doesn't make any sense, since she didn't have anything like that at all in her original game. Why exactly did they add all this, then? Unless it's secretly foreshadowing something from ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyXIII-2'', I just don't get it.
** Lightning does have a bit of a rose motif in FFXIII, most visible when she summons Odin. Her Crystarium crystal is pink and shaped like a rose, and the Odin summon in FFXIII features a lot of flying red rose petals; that's where Lightning's HP attacks come from, which is the reason for the PetalPower.
*** Guess that's what I get for having pretty much never used the summons. ^^U

* Here's some Fridge Logic that could spawn even more ''Dissidia'' games. The ending tells us the Warrior of Light sets off for Cornelia with his Crystal, mirroring the start of the original ''Final Fantasy''. So, what about the other three Light Warriors?
** I believe Dissidia is suggesting a {{Retcon}} there; after all, he's been said to be a CompositeCharacter. Also, I don't see much of a reason for which the original Final Fantasy's story couldn't work with only one Warrior of Light.
** Because the story for the game states each of the four Warriors of Light carries one of the de-powered Crystals.
** Technically the original game could be played with four heroes or one, and the story would adjust accordingly.


* Why is it that the plot and setting of Dissidia match so well with [[VideoGame/DragonForce Dragon Force]]?

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* Why is it that the plot and setting of Dissidia match so well with [[VideoGame/DragonForce ''[[VideoGame/DragonForceSega Dragon Force]]?Force]]''?


* The names of the Manikin versions of the ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyVIII'' cast. Squall's Manikin is called "Transient Lion", and Ultimecia's is called "Transient Witch". [[{{IncrediblyLamePun}} So why isn't Laguna's Manikin called]] [[{{ChroniclesOfNarnia}} "Transient Wardrobe"?]]

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* The names of the Manikin versions of the ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyVIII'' cast. Squall's Manikin is called "Transient Lion", and Ultimecia's is called "Transient Witch". [[{{IncrediblyLamePun}} [[IncrediblyLamePun So why isn't Laguna's Manikin called]] [[{{ChroniclesOfNarnia}} [[Literature/TheChroniclesOfNarnia "Transient Wardrobe"?]]


*** She uses his attacks as her own when he's in gestalt in 13 and when he's a chocobo in 13-3 and during her dlc in 13-2.




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** She does learn it and can use it in 13-3 and 13-2 respectively.



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*** I find it odd that Exdeath's sword attack is called Sword Dance. Sure it's an ability in FFV but not one he uses. The Reaper Sword attack that the Exdeath's Soul enemy uses would have been a more fitting, and more bad ass name for the attack.


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* Why is the Emperor's ExBurst Entice of all things? It did appear in Final Fantasy II but it wasn't something the Emperor ever did as far as I can recall and it really doesn't suit his character. Nor is it useually even a damaging attack. His ExBurst input failure Hurricane makes a lot more sense as it's something very powerful he did in game and yet they went with Entice...It's so random there must be a connection I'm missing.


** Keep in mind who he's working with: Garland is basically the larval form of Chaos, the Emperor is the king of Hell itself, the Cloud of Darkness and EX-Death and EldrichAbomindation in humanoid forms who are completely obsessed with destruction, Golbez is working behind the scenes to help Cosmos and end the eternal conflict, Kefka has the powers of the Warring Triad and wants to destroy everything and everyone, Sephiroth is a super Soldier obsessed with playing mnd games with Cloud, Ultimecia is a Sorceress who is basically a magical demi-god who can bend the laws of space and time over and make them her bitch and Jecht is a just a good guy who wants to reunite with Tidus and go home. Of all of the above the only one who would care or even be somewhat impressed is Kefka, and only to use as a tool to kill everyone else, which is exactly what he tries to do in the game. The others aren't that impressed and Kuja's ata major disadvantage since he's not on his home turf where he knows all the players in the game and can manipulate them from behind the scenes. Kuja is overly dramatic, which messes up his plans and make shim appear foolish. His power is impressive but so is almost everyone else's on Chaos' side.

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** Keep in mind who he's working with: Garland is basically the larval form of Chaos, the Emperor is the king of Hell itself, the Cloud of Darkness and EX-Death and Exdeath are EldrichAbomindation in humanoid forms who are completely obsessed with destruction, Golbez is working behind the scenes to help Cosmos and end the eternal conflict, Kefka has the powers of the Warring Triad and wants to destroy everything and everyone, Sephiroth is a super Soldier obsessed with playing mnd mind games with Cloud, Ultimecia is a Sorceress who is basically a magical demi-god who can bend the laws of space and time over and make them her bitch and Jecht is a just a good guy who wants to reunite with Tidus and go home. Of all of the above the only one who would care or even be somewhat impressed is Kefka, and only to use as a tool to kill everyone else, which is exactly what he tries to do in the game. The others aren't that impressed and Kuja's ata at a major disadvantage since he's not on his home turf where he knows all the players in the game and can manipulate them from behind the scenes. Kuja is overly dramatic, which messes up his plans and make shim makes him appear foolish. His power is impressive but so is almost everyone else's on Chaos' side.


** Since when did a thief or a terrorrist have to be free-spirited? Just because they are breaking the law doesn't mean they are against Order. You are confusing being "Lawful" (a ''DungeonsAndDragons'' term) with being on the side of "Order".

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** Since when did a thief or a terrorrist have to be free-spirited? Just because they are breaking the law doesn't mean they are against Order. You are confusing being "Lawful" (a ''DungeonsAndDragons'' ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'' term) with being on the side of "Order".


**** From my understanding of the plot, Chaos had brought 10 villains from the FinalFantasy multiverse, meaning it's not the same Chaos as the one from [=FFI=]. Cosmos has countered by bringing the heroes. Too bad they are not bringing out the guys from [=FFXII=].

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**** From my understanding of the plot, Chaos had brought 10 villains from the FinalFantasy ''Franchise/FinalFantasy'' multiverse, meaning it's not the same Chaos as the one from [=FFI=]. Cosmos has countered by bringing the heroes. Too bad they are not bringing out the guys from [=FFXII=].



** A fanfic this troper read (yes, this is hardly WordOfGod, but it's just speculation) posited that each FinalFantasy BigBad acted as an agent of Chaos, which the fic presented as some kind of evil PowersThatBe. Hence why almost all of them ended up being a nihilistic OmnicidalManiac or were all along. Kind of like how [[spoiler:each BigBad in ''Franchise/SailorMoon'' turned out be an aspect of Chaos, the BigBad of the universe]].

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** A fanfic this troper read (yes, this is hardly WordOfGod, but it's just speculation) posited that each FinalFantasy ''Franchise/FinalFantasy'' BigBad acted as an agent of Chaos, which the fic presented as some kind of evil PowersThatBe. Hence why almost all of them ended up being a nihilistic OmnicidalManiac or were all along. Kind of like how [[spoiler:each BigBad in ''Franchise/SailorMoon'' turned out be an aspect of Chaos, the BigBad of the universe]].



* The names of the Manikin versions of the FinalFantasyVIII cast. Squall's Manikin is called "Transient Lion", and Ultimecia's is called "Transient Witch". [[{{IncrediblyLamePun}} So why isn't Laguna's Manikin called]] [[{{ChroniclesOfNarnia}} "Transient Wardrobe"?]]

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* The names of the Manikin versions of the FinalFantasyVIII ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyVIII'' cast. Squall's Manikin is called "Transient Lion", and Ultimecia's is called "Transient Witch". [[{{IncrediblyLamePun}} So why isn't Laguna's Manikin called]] [[{{ChroniclesOfNarnia}} "Transient Wardrobe"?]]


* I can understand them giving a generic name to "Warrior Of Light", but "Onion Knight" just seems lazy. Why not just call him Luneth?
** Because he isn't Luneth. In the original VideoGame/FinalFantasyIII, the heroes didn't have default names. Luneth didn't exist until the remake for DS. However, Onion Knight has an alternate costume that makes him look like Luneth.
*** If anyone, he's Ingus. Blond hair & red onion armor.
*** For the record, his alt costume looks like Luneth.
*** And now his third costume makes him look more like the Unnamed Hero. He's a CompositeCharacter, OK?



* Terra's treatment in the story mode's opening just bugs me. The other nine heroes get show various levels of {{badass}}ery. Even the [[BrattyHalfPint Onion Knight]]. Terra deflects a spell and has to be rescued. She may have her timidness from the beginning of her own game, but even then, she wasn't averse to setting something on fire if it threatened her. Would it really have been so difficult for them to show off some of her magic? She has Holy, Meteor, Meltdown, and Ultima. Even if they didn't want to show skills the characters have to learn, she still has Fire, Blizzara, Flood, and Tornado to work with. No matter what, she has more than enough magic for them to have shown her in a proper mage duel with Kefka, Golbez, Ultimecia, or Kuja.
** Actually, for what it's worth, Terra handles her fight with Kefka pretty well, even exhibiting an ability that she doesn't get in the actual game: Teleport. Not to mention that, out of all the pre-battle cutscenes, she's one of very few Warriors of Cosmos to not get ''hit'' before their battle. Consider:
*** Firon gets trapped in a huge explosion by the Emperor
*** Onion Knight has to tank a huge Particle Beam
*** Cecil gets zapped by Cosmic Ray
*** Bartz has trouble fighting Exdeath's ''sword''
*** Cloud barely manages to block a Scintilla attack
*** Squall is pretty much completely at Ultimecia's teleporting, time-stopping mercy
*** Tidus gets falcon punch'd by Jecht.
** Only Warrior of Light, Terra, and Zidane get to the main fight without getting hit or knocked away at least once. She teleported to try and get some breathing room; there were too many spells flying around for her to put up a real offensive. See also the opening cinematic, where Terra singlehandedly reflects a full salvo of magic missiles from Ultimecia. Though, I do admit that the other heroes [[HeroicResolve standing up after those attacks]] makes them look a lot more BadAss.
*** That's what bugs me. That's '''ALL''' she does. There's no reason why she couldn't have been shown using some of her own magic. At the very least, she could have been shown launching a fireball at Ultimecia before needing to be rescued from Mateus' trap. At least it's a consolation that in game she demonstrates how BadAss a SquishyWizard can be, but that makes the CutsceneIncompetence in the opening more jarring.
*** To be fair, we don't see the entire fight, for the next thing we see is Squall and Sephiroth in mid-battle.
*** That, and we see about ''five seconds'' of each character in the opening. They don't have time for much. And deflecting magic missiles isn't showing off Terra's magical prowess? Not to mention that all the deflected missiles aren't just scattered, but '''''redirected to another Warrior of Chaos'''''.
*** That's something every character can do. Haven't you ever done a well timed block? Or had one used against you? It's still not showing her power in a way that makes her look like she can stand with the other Cosmos warriors.
*** Not quite. Every character can block and redirect magical strikes, but only if you time it well, and only for a limited period of time. What ''Terra'' does, though, is throw up a magic shield that stops a very long ''salvo'' of attacks cold and scatters them for a sustained amount of time.
*** It seems like most of the opening video was really to show the characters struggling against each other, not to show any hero's power in a really big way. If you want to look at some of the other heroes; Onion Knight's only real act in that same video is to bang his sword on Garland's helmet a few times and outrun one of The Emperor's traps. And all we see of Cecil is him tanking a Particle Beam and changing classes. As the guy above me said, there's not much time for the heroes to do much that is really impressive in that video; the villains do all the really impressive stuff there.
*** Oh, and in response to what you said before, she ''does'' launch a fireball at Ultimecia before stepping onto Mateus's trap seal. It's just a little hard to see with all the magic missiles flying about. It's just before she does that huge backflip while dodging Ultimecia's magic arrows.
*** And as someone pointed out earlier, the nine boys were struggling too. So, what? Boys are allowed to get their asses handed to them but girls aren't?
*** Of course girls can get their asses handed to them when the result is the same as the guys getting their asses handed to them. That was not the case here. The guys either got out of their problems themselves or helped each other in a way that makes them look stronger. Terra was made to look like a standard damsel in distress.
*** [[SarcasmMode Yeah, because Bartz totally looked stronger clinging for dear life while Exdeath held the void out. And Onion Knight was so]] BadAss [[SarcasmMode the way he was launched by the Emperor's traps.]]
*** The opening was also designed to show that the characters were working together. Bartz needed Zidane and Tidus to bail him out when Exdeath had him dangling from the cliff, which, if anything, makes him come off as even weaker than Terra, who was able to hold her own against Ultimecia for a fair amount of time before the sheer number of pointy, death-causing magic arrows reaches an overwhelming point, at which point she she fires off one last fire spell before flipping off to try her hand elsewhere. It's only then that the Emperor gets her in a trap. The other characters coming in to bail her out really seems to me to be more of a way of showing that, again, the characters are helping each other, and to give Cloud and the Warrior of Light something more to do in the video.
*** Let's be fair, though. Bartz was against '''''[[GameBreaker Exdeath]]'''''.
*** Well, she only looked like a damsel in distress because the villains were trying to capture her, not kill her. And why were they trying to capture her? Because of the ''raw power'' she commands. Bartz, Zidane, and Onion Knight had stints as a male DistressedDamsel, too. The only reason Terra didn't fight her way out like they did is because Onion Knight had had to knock her out when she started rampaging, and she wasn't able to wake up until he had already made his way to her. And because in her case, the villains actually cared about keeping her hostage.
*** They weren't trying to take her hostage in the opening. I've already stated that it's her treatment in the opening that bothers me, not her treatment in-game.
*** And she wasn't a DamselInDistress in the opening, so what exactly are you complaining about again?
*** And the answer to that is that she pulled off something fairly awesome anyway and wasn't made out to be any more helpless than some of the other combatants, such as Bartz and the Onion Knight.
** And another thing about Terra; in her story mode, Kefka basically tells her she's nothing but a force for destruction, like ''him''. Coupled with the fact that her powers seemed to be going out of control, I think she's allowed to be scared and upset.
*** My issue is not with her in-game personality. My issue is that in the opening she was made to look almost helpless when even in the beginning of her own game she was anything but.
*** I beg to differ on that last point. Remember when she got hopelessly cornered in the Narshe Mines and Locke had to rescue her? After her amnesia took hold, she was very vulnerable, scared, and confused. Much like Destiny Oddessy VI, now that I think about it.
*** Point taken about the Narshe mines, but it's not very long after that that she starts setting magiteck armored knights on fire even though there's been almost zero change to her personality. It's not GameplayAndStorySegregation either, casting a fire spell triggers a conversion with Locke and Edgar that's continued after the battle.
*** Yes, she does it in self-defense and is extremely self-conscious about her powers and how she can be abused. And she ''still'' needs Edgar and Locke to help her out. She doesn't gain anything close to confidence for the first half of the game and she's only a one-woman army in some of the cutscenes.



* A joke fan-made screenshot made it seem like Lightning from ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyXIII'' was going to be in this game. It wasn't true, of course, but it leads me to an interesting question: Why isn't Lightning in this game? It would have been an awesome secret character, and a nice taste of the plot and battle system of ''FFXIII''. Instead we have... well, nobody. [[spoiler:Off topic, and purely my own fanwankery, but the game also needed Balthier.]]
** She's not in it because the guy in charge of the games didn't want players to be spoiled as to her fighting style. I forget exactly where, but this is cited in a few places on TVTropes.
*** Then Nomura rejected it for the exact same reason I wanted it? How perfect!
*** Lightning was rejected for Dissidia because ''[=FF13=]'' hadn't come out by the time Dissidia was released in Japan; one of the developers (not 100% sure it was Nomura) said that they didn't want her fighting style set in stone before the release of her debut game.
** Then again, hadn't ''[=FF13=]'' already come out by the time of the latest Dissidia's updated release?
** In one part of the world, yes. And yes, it was a rumor and hoax that Lightning would be in it.
** Well, she's in ''Duodecim'', now, so there you go.



* Why do people here consider the Alignment changes of Terra, Cloud, Tidus, and Jecht spoilers? Not only was it heavily implied that Terra was a Warrior of Chaos once in the first game, but the changes are on the ''bloody cover of the game''.
** Who the hell is considering it a spoiler beyond the "too obvious" type?

* The game's gonna be out in ''three weeks'' in North America, where's the English trailer? I mean, I'm glad that Square seems to have acknowledged that we follow the Japanese news. But ''not everyone does'', and there should have been an English trailer a while ago.
** There has been some released videos of fights with the English voices, so I think ''some'' promotioning there is.
** There's ''finally'' a full trailer with English voices floating around on the internet. About time...




* What was up with the advertising for Duodecim claiming it would have a campaign for the Chaos warriors when it... y'know... doesn't? 000 doesn't count since it can be ''any'' five characters with no bearing on the story, and the Reports don't count since not only are they really just little snippets highlighting interesting goings-on in various cycles rather than a full cohesive story arc, you're playing Cosmos warriors in them as often as you are Chaos warriors.
** It's advertising. In order to draw attention to the game, they highlight some aspect of the game in order to make it sound really awesome when, in reality, it doesn't really come up that often. The ads were probably referring to the Reports, even though those aren't really enough to consider a whole campaign, especially since most of them aren't that long. The disappointing part is that ''012'' would have been the perfect time to introduce a proper villain campaign because, y'know, the villains actually win this one, meaning that a story starring them ''exclusively'' wouldn't just end in their being killed off.
** I'm wondering why you still bought the game when a promised feature wasn't actually in the game. Sounds like you got screwed.
*** Because it's still fun.



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*** It ''is'' revealed why Prishe disappeared. One of the earlier cycles ended when Garland killed Cosmos. With Cosmos dead (and without being imbued with Cosmos's power/crystal), all of her warriors were destroyed, too. Shantotto was apparently protected by having already left for the Rift, and the Warrior was apparently missing for a cycle or two before he revived.


**** According to what I read on the character page, that's exactly it. They beat up the warriors so furiously, even after killing them, that [[spoiler:Shinryu just can't get anything more out of them and therefore doesn't bother to revive them for the next time around. It's not until the war is over that they are restored and sent back home.]] Though that admittedly leaves out individuals like Gabranth and Shanttoto.

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**** According to what I read on the character page, that's exactly it. They beat up the warriors so furiously, even after killing them, that [[spoiler:Shinryu just can't get anything more out of them and therefore doesn't bother to revive them for the next time around. It's not until the war is over that they are restored and sent back home.]] Though that admittedly leaves out individuals like Gabranth and Shanttoto.
Shanttoto.
** (sigh) You aren't RetGone[[hottip:*:Yes, everyone who died forgets the earlier cycles, but those who didn't remember those cycles just fine]], and there's nothing special about manikins that allows them to permanently remove someone from the cycles. It's that manikins don't stop trying to kill you just because you're dead and so there isn't enough left of a warrior defeated by manikins when it comes time for purification.


** A fanfic this troper read (yes, this is hardly WordOfGod, but it's just speculation) posited that each FinalFantasy BigBad acted as an agent of Chaos, which the fic presented as some kind of evil PowersThatBe. Hence why almost all of them ended up being a nihilistic OmnicidalManiac or were all along. Kind of like how [[spoiler:each BigBad in SailorMoon turned out be an aspect of Chaos, the BigBad of the universe]].

to:

** A fanfic this troper read (yes, this is hardly WordOfGod, but it's just speculation) posited that each FinalFantasy BigBad acted as an agent of Chaos, which the fic presented as some kind of evil PowersThatBe. Hence why almost all of them ended up being a nihilistic OmnicidalManiac or were all along. Kind of like how [[spoiler:each BigBad in SailorMoon ''Franchise/SailorMoon'' turned out be an aspect of Chaos, the BigBad of the universe]].

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