Follow TV Tropes

Following

History Headscratchers / BraveNewWorld

Go To

OR

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
disambiguated trope


** I think it comes back to that OedipusComplex.

to:

** I think it comes back to that OedipusComplex.Oedipus complex.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* What about homosexuals? A society of frequent, non reproductive sex and no one even MENTIONS homosexuality? The Brave New World is trying to prevent unwanted pregnancy by sterilizing most women, yet [[NoHeterosexualSexAllowed promoting homosexuality]] or [[EveryoneIsBi Bisexual "conditioning"]] aren't considered? Why not actively promote homosexuality in order to reduce unwanted pregnancies? Huxley seems to be going for a society where sex is quick and commonplace, and EveryoneIsBi would fit nicely with this.
** At the time when the book was written, homosexuality at the time was a criminal offense in Britain. Huxley was very well aware of and supportive of bisexuality - he was polyamorous and shared a lover with his bisexual wife, and even playfully coined the term 'omnifutuent' (Neo-Latin for 'all-fucking') to describe her. But it was still a huge risk to write about it.

to:

* What about homosexuals? A society of frequent, non reproductive non-reproductive sex and no one even MENTIONS homosexuality? The Brave New World is trying to prevent unwanted pregnancy by sterilizing most women, yet [[NoHeterosexualSexAllowed promoting homosexuality]] or [[EveryoneIsBi Bisexual "conditioning"]] aren't considered? Why not actively promote homosexuality in order to reduce unwanted pregnancies? Huxley seems to be going for a society where sex is quick and commonplace, and EveryoneIsBi would fit nicely with this.
** At the time when the book was written, homosexuality at the time was a criminal offense in Britain. Huxley was very well aware of and supportive of bisexuality - he was polyamorous and shared a lover with his bisexual wife, and even playfully coined the term 'omnifutuent' (Neo-Latin for 'all-fucking') to describe her. But it was still a huge risk to write about it.



** Given individuality is key in pursuing science, philosophy and art... not really. In this utopia, the only kind of science, philosophy and art that can be pursued is the "mass-produced" kind. But it's obvious this sort of philosophy is useless, this kind of art is barely art(more like a craft) and this sort of science (government-funded and focused on goals instead of discovery) would make Carl Sagan cry.

to:

** Given individuality is key in pursuing science, philosophy and art... not really. In this utopia, the only kind of science, philosophy and art that can be pursued is the "mass-produced" kind. But it's obvious this sort of philosophy is useless, this kind of art is barely art(more art (more like a craft) and this sort of science (government-funded and focused on goals instead of discovery) would make Carl Sagan cry.



** As the DHC said to Marx, be a kid or leave. They only give short term happiness, sex, drugs and leisure, everything else is prohibited. It's too keep people happy not persons.
** One of the problems here is this was written by a non-hedonist. So some of this logic doesn't hold up from the perspective of people who would want to build a Brave New World which considering the book is anti-hedonist is kind of the point. An engineered world state with reservations and islands without rules is very accurate to what a hedonist utopia would look like. The World State of Brave New World however clearly isn't peak happiness to most hedonists back then or today.

to:

** As the DHC said to Marx, be a kid or leave. They only give short term happiness, sex, drugs and leisure, everything else is prohibited. It's too to keep people happy happy, not persons.
** One of the problems here is this was written by a non-hedonist. So some of this logic doesn't hold up from the perspective of people who would want to build a Brave New World World, which considering the book is anti-hedonist is kind of the point. An engineered world state with reservations and islands without rules is very accurate to what a hedonist utopia would look like. The World State of Brave New World however clearly isn't peak happiness to most hedonists back then or today.



** The World State isn't trying to produce happiness, it's trying to prevent unhappiness. Those who pursue real science, art, and experience can definitely still be happy (and in fact will almost certainly be happier than those still feeding of the infantile World State versions of these things), but they also have the potential to be ''un''happy, and that's what the World State won't accept.

to:

** The World State isn't trying to produce happiness, it's trying to prevent unhappiness. Those who pursue real science, art, and experience can definitely still be happy (and in fact will almost certainly be happier than those still feeding of off the infantile World State versions of these things), but they also have the potential to be ''un''happy, and that's what the World State won't accept.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Considering the time when the book was written, as well as Huxley's British background, homosexuality at the time was a criminal offense and, quite probably, slipped Huxley's mind when writing the book.

to:

** Considering At the time when the book was written, as well as Huxley's British background, homosexuality at the time was a criminal offense and, quite probably, slipped Huxley's mind when writing in Britain. Huxley was very well aware of and supportive of bisexuality - he was polyamorous and shared a lover with his bisexual wife, and even playfully coined the book.term 'omnifutuent' (Neo-Latin for 'all-fucking') to describe her. But it was still a huge risk to write about it.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

*** In fact, it was a pretty big point of the story that the experiment failed because the Alphas didn't want to do Epsilon or other lower-caste jobs.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** (a) I always assumed that Alphas were in fact just run of the mill smartish people by today's standards, not genius level, (b) there is today a growing body of evidence that aside from actual genetic predispositions that bring down performance, all children function at what we regard as "genius" level until the restrictions of wealth, society, education constrict them down to "normal" levels of performance, ie, a person of "normal" intelligence is pretty thick compared to what they could achieve if they had an "optimal" upbringing. Just whether there are books in the house you grew up in will make a HUGE difference.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** The World State isn't trying to produce happiness, it's trying to prevent unhappiness. Those who pursue real science, art, and experience can definitely still be happy (and in fact will almost certainly be happier than those still feeding of the infantile World State versions of these things), but they also have the potential to be ''un''happy, and that's what the World State won't accept.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** Besides all of the above, there's also the fact that the pursuit and even the existence of things like science, philosophy and art actively require those pursuing such interests to engage with, think about and question the nature of the world one lives in. And that act of questioning everything around you immediately opens up the overwhelming likelihood of not particularly liking whatever answers or conclusions you might come to very much. The ''act'' of pursuing such interests might make a certain percentage of the population happy but the ''results'' of it, especially as these things tend to then be passed on and consumed by others, risk causing widespread unhappiness. So...ultimately it's better for the World State (which seems to thrive on selling relentless short-term pleasure and complacency above the actual human emotion of genuine happiness) if these things just aren't there beyond what they have immediate control over.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** One of the problems here is this was written by a non-hedonist. So some of this logic doesn't hold up from the perspective of people who would want to build a Brave New World which considering the book is anti-hedonist is kind of the point. An engineered world state with reservations and islands without rules is very accurate to what a hedonist utopia would look like. The World State of Brave New World however clearly isn't peak happiness to most hedonists back then or today.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* Why does John hate Popé? He seems to have been an al lright guy, acting similar to a long-term boyfriend. He doesn't seem to mistreat John in the little interactions they have and if he really was a long-term lover of Linda's, isn't it a better alliterative than her just being with random men? At least Popé was consistent.

to:

* Why does John hate Popé? He seems to have been an al lright alright guy, acting similar to a long-term boyfriend. He doesn't seem to mistreat John in the little interactions they have and if he really was a long-term lover of Linda's, isn't it a better alliterative than her just being with random men? At least Popé was consistent.

Added: 374

Changed: 350

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* why dose John hate Popé? He seems to have been an alright guy, acting simlair to a long-term boyfriend. He doesn't seem to mistreat John the little interactions they have and if he really was a long-term lover of Linda's isn't it a better alliterative than her just being with random men? At least Popé was consistent.

to:

** On that note, accidents probably still do happen. Their main use may be 'crowd control'.
* why dose Why does John hate Popé? He seems to have been an alright al lright guy, acting simlair similar to a long-term boyfriend. He doesn't seem to mistreat John in the little interactions they have and if he really was a long-term lover of Linda's Linda's, isn't it a better alliterative than her just being with random men? At least Popé was consistent. consistent.
** I think it comes back to that OedipusComplex.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** why dose John hate Popé? He seems to have been an alright guy, acting simlair to a long-term boyfriend. He doesn't seem to mistreat John the little interactions they have and if he really was a long-term lover of Linda's isn't it a better alliterative than her just being with random men? At least Popé was consistent.

to:

** * why dose John hate Popé? He seems to have been an alright guy, acting simlair to a long-term boyfriend. He doesn't seem to mistreat John the little interactions they have and if he really was a long-term lover of Linda's isn't it a better alliterative than her just being with random men? At least Popé was consistent.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** why dose John hate Popé? He seems to have been an alright guy, acting simlair to a long-term boyfriend. He doesn't seem to mistreat John the little interactions they have and if he really was a long-term lover of Linda's isn't it a better alliterative than her just being with random men? At least Popé was consistent.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** The characters are able to rent planes as easily as we rent cars today, and the planes are apparently about as easy to operate. They could probably have one police unit for the entirety of Britain and just send them over in a fighter jet when needed.

Added: 764

Changed: 801

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None



to:

** Communism tends to fail for two reasons as I understand it. 1) Resources are limited. 2) People are greedy. It seems the technology in this society is so great that they're living in post scarcity ie, resources are effectively unlimited (they say they can get by purely by synthesizing food but farm anyway for the heck of it). And then on the human element, everyone is obviously conditioned to be content with their place in the caste and desire no more than they have. They're also universally drugged with ecstasy to keep them from wanting basically anything at all. With those two factors in mind, a completely controlled economy doesn't seem far fetched at all (in fact, this troper assumed there wasn't even money and people got paid in Soma until John mentions having some cash at the end).
* By the time this book is set, Shakespere is over a thousand years old. It's already reasonably difficult to casually read by today's standards, it should be outright impossible for a home schooled layman to read it five hundred years from now. And it's not like the evolution of language was outlawed or anything, we clearly see that new words did come to fruition. Of course the language should still be massively different to modern English, but one can rationalize some translation convention, but not when direct quotes are being thrown out so liberally.
* Near the end the characters are arrested by the police. Why exactly does this world have a police system? I can't imagine there being nearly enough irregulars causing trouble to justify their existence.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Would theoretically be part of the subpage split, but only one has examples.


(Both the Franchise/{{Pokemon}} fanfic and the Huxley novel of this title point to this Headscratcher page.)
!! For The Book:












Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** They aren't using magic, tampering with fetuses, using a drug that stimulate pleasure and all the weird conditioning is gonna kill someone in the late years. Epsilon making it to sixty in perfect health is a miracle giving they engineered birth defects.

to:

** They aren't using magic, magic; tampering with fetuses, using a drug that stimulate pleasure and all the weird conditioning is gonna kill someone in the late years. Epsilon making it to sixty in perfect health is a miracle giving they engineered birth defects.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None



to:

*** Moreover, one function of the islands may be to act as seeds for the rebuilding of civilization if necessary. Should the main society totally collapse, you have the islands full of men and women who are intelligent, at least partially capable of functioning without the World State, biologically capable of reproduction (and with the free will to overcome those taboos, if necessary), and possess the technological resources to sustain themselves at a fairly high tech level.

Added: 1770

Changed: 975

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** They aren't using magic, tampering with fetuses, using a drug that stimulate pleasure and all the weird conditioning is gonna kill someone in the late years. Epsilon making it to sixty in perfect health is a miracle giving they engineered birth defects.



** They are doing orgies where everyone probably fucks everyone, they don't care because sexuality is just blowing off some steam to them, that's why they put you on a list of mates with the person you want and might get a reprieve if you keep going with the same one. And they already took care of childbirth control, only one who got pregnant was lost in the woods everyone else is monitored to make sure that doesn't happen.



* In the Island experiment, everyone was an Alpha citzen and all the islanders considered themselves above tasks for the lower classes, and things went downhill … and fast. However, wasn't that experiment ''already'' doomed to fail even before it began? I kept thinking: all Alpha citizens are conditioned since birth to behave like '''exactly like that''', relishing their inteligence while priding themselves as above those of the lower classes, ''even if those jobs needed to be done''.

to:

** As the DHC said to Marx, be a kid or leave. They only give short term happiness, sex, drugs and leisure, everything else is prohibited. It's too keep people happy not persons.
* In the Island experiment, everyone was an Alpha citzen citizen and all the islanders considered themselves above tasks for the lower classes, and things went downhill … and fast. However, wasn't that experiment ''already'' doomed to fail even before it began? I kept thinking: all Alpha citizens are conditioned since birth to behave like '''exactly like that''', relishing their inteligence intelligence while priding themselves as above those of the lower classes, ''even if those jobs needed to be done''.



** They were Alphas like Bernard and Helmhotz, filling they could do better than this society and starts living for themselves, they just realized it's harder than they thought and gave up. Sure it was expected to fail but that means Helmholtz and Bernard are also doomed to fail since they won't live like that either even if they think they can.



** In his first appeareance, Mond talks about Freud, but the students imply he is just mispelling "Ford". It's implied that some people, like Freud (who studied not just family relations, but majorly individuality) are hidden and forbidden. All the names that are accepted are about people whose ideas revolve around coletivity.

to:

** In his first appeareance, Mond talks about Freud, but the students imply he is just mispelling "Ford". It's implied that some people, like Freud (who studied not just family relations, but majorly individuality) are hidden and forbidden. All the names that are accepted are about people whose ideas revolve around coletivity.collectivity.
** It's not necessary to remove it and they keep some stuff from the old world if they feel like it.



** The gadgets user are Delta, more Deltas instead of Epsilon is dumb since they might be smart enough to get pissed if you make too much of them.




to:

** Not necessarily smart, they might give them plenty of protein and stuff to make sure they are strong and tall.





to:

\n** There is no real economy, it's all controlled since birth that people want to work and consume government goods. People will buy something because they were told to buy it since they were 4 and people will work since they have nothing to do before their next soma drop.

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** There ''is'' a passing reference to homosexuality at the beginning, when the DHC lectures the students about how childhood sexuality was once considered shocking and immoral; he describes it as one of the few available outlets children had for sexual experimentation. It never comes up again, but everyone clearly understands the concept, at least.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None




to:

\n** They're deliberately operating at a fraction of their true technological ability so its probably very easy to avoid any shortfalls. Because of the way things are setup the World State also knows ''exactly'' what everyone wants so there's no issue with responding to changing demands.

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:


* I'm not sure if they go into any detail on this, but how is the World State's economy run? Presumably it isn't a market system, since any economic competition would likely cause unhappiness. So if it's done by central planning, how do they escape the problems this caused to the communist states? Huxley might not have been aware of this (however the economic calculation problem was first put out in 1920, with the debate over it ongoing when he wrote the book).

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None



to:

** The freemartins are also not explicitly androgynous. They are explained as "quite normal" but occasionally develop facial hair (which is almost definitely immediately removed to meet their high standards for beauty). It's also notable that the only really significant women in the plot are both fertile, and the only freemartin who is at all involved with the main characters, Fanny, is portrayed negatively, with her eventually convincing Lenina to rape John. Like much of the society's sexual elements, freemartins aren't explicitly demonized but are probably supposed to naturally offend the reader with their subject matter alone (or at least a reader in 1930's England).
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None



to:

** Just remember: A) these aren't women who wanted a different body than the female body they were born in, but whose physical state was deliberately caused by human intervention before birth -- they were stripped of many female traits/characteristics without their consent or choice; B) their acceptance is owed to those who write the hypnopedic suggestion scripts rather than to any genuine open-mindedness; and C) people who physically haven't fit the "Female is Female and Male is Male" hard line throughout history have been ostracized by society because they seemed odd, and this society ''still'' ostracizes people who seem odd by their standards and don't fit the mold just as strongly as any society ever has (look at how his fellow Alphas treat Bernard just for being short) -- in the World State, the molds have changed (androgynous women are normal and accepted), but the attitude towards those who don't fit has not (short Alpha men are undesirable monsters).

Top