This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
"Space opera" is also the name of a doctrine of the Church of Scientology, a description of which would be beyond the scope of this Wiki.
...let's just not get into this, 'k?
girlyboy: Gah! I think the picture for this trope (that has now been moved to Parody Tropes) fit it perfectly. Of course, I'm a bit biased since I added it... But come on, it's a picture of a literal Space Opera! And the work it is a parody of actually was a Space Opera! Besides... Rule of Funny! :(
Not to mention that Lampshade Hangings and Parodies and the like seem to me like they'd be a perfect source of images for the tropes they refer to. An image of a literal opera that also has a Space Opera plot is not only amusing, but a good illustration of the trope. Remember, this wiki is a buttload more informal than, say, Wikipedia. This would also be the reason why, for example, there is a picture of a literal bug in the Incredibly Obvious Bug trope... (And if you change that, I will cry.)
I am considering adding the image back, but I do not want to start an Edit War, so I'll just put this in discussion, and then think about it for a bit first (and see if anyone responds).
- Well, it's been a few weeks, and no-one's commented further, so I have added the image back in. I think it is appropriate, illustrates the trope well, and also complies with the all-important Rule of Funny.
Dragon Quest Z: A visual pun is NOT the same thing as being built on the very concepts, since this isn't a comedy or pun trope. And you think the Foundation saga is not an example, because that is what that other picture is from.
girlyboy: I noticed that it was Foundation from the name of the picture, but there was nothing in the picture itself to make that clear; it was just a bunch of space-ships around a planet. Could have been Space Opera — could have been Hard sci-fi, or something else. Either way, it was a nice picture, but not particularly amusing. The Khan picture is an image of a literal Space Opera, and this is obvious from the start, making it an amusing and fitting illustration.
I meant the pun was built on the concept because the humour in it came not only from the fact that it was a literal opera about, and in, space, but also because it was based on the plot of an actual space opera, that many tropers would instantly recognize. If it was just some people singing opera in space suits it would not be as funny; but Wrath of Khan itself is very much a space opera, and the fact that the image is a literal space opera that is also an "actual" space opera is what makes it funny. It's a "space opera"... which actually has the plot of a Space Opera.
(This is also why some other possible pictures, like the opera scene from The Fifth Element, wouldn't work as well; that film was itself a space opera, but its opera scene was not itself a representation of the trope, the way "Le Wrath Di Khan" is.)
I don't understand why you're so set against this. TV Tropes is not Wikipedia, and it is not a dry and purely academic work. It is also amusing and entertaining. The image could not possibly cause confusion in anyone, since no-one would possibly think there's an entire trope dedicated to people literally singing opera in space. On the other hand, it is amusing because of the way it refers to the concept of Space Opera. This kind of amusement and whimsy is also a part of what this wiki is all about, and I don't think you recognize this. This wiki is not supposed to be dry, technical, boring, with every picture being a simple and dry illustration of its trope.
At any rate, I think it has been made clear that this particular issue has been resolved. The picture will stay. For the record, I'd be happy if it were replaced with a more amusing image (I'm not a fan of Robot Chicken, per se). However, this picture is such a perfect pun that it's hard for me to imagine a better one coming along. If one ever does, I'll be quite happy, though. But it would have to be something amusing and interesting, not just some generic ships over a generic planet (not even if it happens to be an illustration from a space opera work).
Dragon Quest Z: "but there was nothing in the picture itself to make that clear" Starships over a planet isn't clear? Do you even know what this trope is about?
And I say Fast Eddie made a bad call, no9thing against him, but because requiring a funny picture is not valid when the trope is not about comedy. That's like saying a comedy trope should have a scary picture and only have a replacement that is scarier.
And how is it being like the other wiki to say a page should have a picture that's an actual example instead of a pun? That's a strawman argument.
girly: ... Oh boy. For starters, no, that is not a strawman argument; even if you disagree with the argument, saying it's a "strawman" is... not true. That's not what that term means. What I said is that this wiki is not supposed to be all serious and dry. You seem to want to make it so, since you don't think a humorous illustration is appropriate unless the trope itself is a comedy trope. I think that's a fair representation of what you said, and I was not trying to simplify your position to make it easier to argue against. So, not a straw man.
Secondly, starships over a planet =/= space opera. You accuse me of "not even knowing" what the trope is, but I do, I think... more or less... It's not just any work that involves space ships. It's an epic work, with romance, high adventure, and, usually, little serious consideration of technology and society and the like. Sure, lots of examples of Space Opera involve space ships hanging over a planet. So does the film 2001: A Space Odyssey which, while it has elements of space opera (its epic nature, mostly), probably doesn't really fit the trope at all (it's hard science fiction with some pretty serious exploration of technology and human nature). Space opera is not all science fiction. The image you put up would probably fit better under some trope like Cool Starship or Standard Sci-Fi Fleet or some such.
Lastly, and most importantly, putting a humorous illustration on a non-comedy trope is not "like" putting a horror image on a comedy trope. Now this actually is a strawman argument. Seriously, think about it. You're simplifying my position, and making extrapolations from it that I clearly did not intend, and then using this simplified version of my position to argue against me. It's very solidly a strawman. The irony! Anyway, the reason the image is appropriate is because this entire wiki has humorous undertones. Not just comedy tropes. The wiki as a whole. It does not have horror undertones. That's why it makes no sense to put horror images on random tropes. But the wiki does have a playful, non-serious attitude. That's why a humorous illustration is perfectly appropriate for a non-comedy trope, as long as it is actually connected to the trope. Which this image definitely is, and not just because it's a Visual Pun, but also because it's a Visual Pun that is also an actual Space Opera, and not just a pun on the phrase.
Dragon Quest Z: "What I said is that this wiki is not supposed to be all serious and dry." The strawman is you acting as though we should have an actual example of the trope is being serious and dry.
"since you don't think a humorous illustration is appropriate unless the trope itself is a comedy trope." Wrong. I'm saying we shouldn't have a requirement a picture should be funny if it's not a comedy trope.
"I think that's a fair representation of what you said," It isn't. It's taking my points to be something they are not so you can argue against those an not my actual arguments, which is a kind of strawman.
"Secondly, starships over a planet =/= space opera." Those are elements of it, while singing is not. We can't actually have a picture of a space opera as you put it, since the concept by definition is too epic for that. But we can have a picture from actual science fiction illustrations that try to illustrate the trope, since the books of space operas try to do that.
"putting a humorous illustration on a non-comedy trope is not "like" putting a horror image on a comedy trope." Wrong. I wrote "like saying a comedy trope should have a scary picture", not simply putting it there. So again, it's the requirement I'm calling on, not simply putting it there.
"The image you put up would probably fit better under some trope like Cool Starship or Standard Sci-Fi Fleet" Perhaps the former, but not the latter (two ships isn't showing a fleet), but The Musical doesn't have a picture, so the current picture here would go best in that. I repeat, that picture is showing a musical, and The Musical doesn't have a page picture.
girly: It may not be a requirement, but having a funnier picture is better than having a non-funny-one. If you have two equally appropriate pictures, and one is funny and the other is not, yes, the funnier one should win. You may disagree with this, but so far it seems you are in the minority: Myself, Fast Eddie and at least one other Troper on the forum seemingly in agreement that funny = good. So why the heck do you take it upon yourself to delete the comment? You may not agree with it, but others obviously do!
Wrath Of Khan is a Space Opera. So is Foundation. But the current image is an obvious reference to Wrath Of Khan, which will instantly be clear to anyone who's ever seen the movie. Your proposed image is just a couple of space ships over a planet; there's nothing making it clear it's from Foundation. Or from this genre (i.e. Space Opera as opposed to Hard Science Fiction, or other forms of sci-fi). It could be from another genre. But for anyone who's seen or even has seen images from Wrath Of Khan, the current image will clearly evoke the idea of a space opera.
For this reason, even a serious illustration from Wrath Of Khan would be preferable to your proposed image. But a funny one that references Wrath Of Khan while also being a good Visual Pun on Space Opera? A clear winner. I don't understand how you can possibly think it is not an appropriate illustration.
And I'm sorry, but you've been deleting this image (with no discussion on this page at all up until today, I might add) over and over again, making it clear that what you disliked about it is that it's a parody rather than a serious image. So I think I can be forgiven for taking from that, and from your comments here, the message that you don't want amusing images unless it's on a comedy trope. Besides, I still disagree with what you're saying now: Again, a picture being funny may not be a requirement, but it is a plus, and something that's perfectly valid to consider when choosing an image. So as far as that goes, my point still stands.
Anyway, to wrap up this lengthy discussion: You started a thread on this in the Image forum. If in that thread there is an overwhelming consensus that the Khan image is bad (and I mean — there is an actual discussion, with at least several people involved, and they come down overwhelmingly on your side), then I will concede that I'm not winning this one, and then you can go ahead and remove it. Until then, I very strongly believe the image should stay (translation: I will keep restoring it). Thank you for the discussion.
