This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Micah: Cut:
- Of course, the Witch-King's defeat is helped by the fact that Merry carries a Numenorean blade constructed as a bane to Angmar, and that Eowyn herself possesses a remarkably strong spirit to survive stabbing him, but that doesn't make a good prophecy.
- The fact that Eowyn has "a remarkably strong spirit" has no effect either way on the prophecy, and that Merry is also not a man just reinforces it.
- Of course, the Witch-King's defeat is helped by the fact that Merry carries a Numenorean blade constructed as a bane to Angmar, and that Eowyn herself possesses a remarkably strong spirit to survive stabbing him, but that doesn't make a good prophecy.
CA Lieber: I am enough of a Rules Lawyer that I've spent the last 15 minutes wondering if, should I receive the prophecy "no person who has life will cause the end of yours," I would be vulnerable to a Xanatos Gambit that involved my killer's death.
kicking_k: Regarding Howl's Moving Castle - the third verse comes true as well, in fact. It's a reference to Howl's fickleness - "Yet do not, I would not go" refers to Howl's losing interest whenever he thinks he's found a girl who loves him. And in fact, we don't ever see a girl stay true to him until after the curse is broken. Howl just doesn't want the verse read out because he's just realised it's a curse and can't bear to hear any more.
Jove Hack: "Of the Judge from Buffy The Vampire Slayer, it's said that 'No Weapon Forged Can Defeat Him'." The Judge is defeated by an anti-tank weapon, which creates a "self-forging projectile." Classic Did Not Do The Research with a large dose of They Just Didn't Care.
Mike Rosoft: Removed debate regarding Macbeth/Tolkien:
- This troper agrees with Tolkien. Macduff was still born even if he had to be pulled out or cut out. Specific medical terminology even shows that a person counts as being born once their body leaves the their mother's womb.
- Sigh. First of all, Shakespeare's and Tolkien's quotes are entirely different, with it being out of place to take the latter as a rebuttal of the former. Secondly, the Macbeth quote focuses on the birthing aspect of being born, in which Macduff's mother was not involved, having her son bodily ripp'd and all.
For the record, see the linked article
: "In the original Holinshed Chronicles, the more specific prophecy was that Macbeth 'should neuer be slaine with man born of anie woman'".
FTA: "The trick to this prophecy is that what it was saying was misunderstood. The prophecy wasn't talking about what can't kill the Witch-king, but what was going to. It's neatly hidden in the archaic-sounding phrasing: "not by the hand of man will he fall". The temptation to translate that into modern idiom is strong, but it's actually quite literal."
What is the difference? Saying that Person A will not be killed in Manner X necessarily implies that they *cannot* be killed in Manner X. There is no trick here because the two interpreteations you list are one and the same. The trick lies only in the meaning of the word "man".
Mr Death: The trick is, the Witch-king interpreted it to mean "The Witch-king will never die," What it's actually saying is, "This is how the Witch-king will die."
