This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Scientivore: I thought that Sin City was based on New Orleans, which really does have a strong Catholic tradition
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- [2009/05/05] Maria S: I get that you don't like Dan Brown, and I don't love him, but I wish you would be a bit more consistent. He is talking about an area where most everyone is Catholic in modern times. (Italy). And a time in history when every christian WAS catholic. So I think your put downs are a bit unfair. The Da Vinci Code IS a work of fiction and a well thought out one.
Hasher Britarse: Sin City is also on a bay within easy reach of a desert. It was a prominent town in the Wild West. Some people suggested it was based on San Francisco. To be honest, I think it is to Urban America what Ruritania is to rural Europe.
Phartman: Hmm, I'm detecting a little animosity towards us Conservative Protestants in the first paragraph. Is there anything beyond America is predominantly Protestant that needs to be in there? Check your bitterness (and your litany of our past sins) at the door and answer honestly.
Hasher Britarse: I didn't really mean to be hostile, so much as highlight the difference between history and what you see on the screen (real life vs. reel life). I'm not actually Catholic myself, I'm a skeptic but brought up protestant. My family have been mostly Methodist with a bit of Baptist and Congregationalist for as far back as anyone can remember. Sure, if my choice of words sounded too much like flame-bait then pull it, I wasn't trying to open a crusade.
Phartman: No real harm done. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person on this wiki who's both Protestant and Conservative -so everyone conceivably could gang up on me if they wanted- but I do appreciate keeping the ugly details from our past where they belong. I can't help what a bunch of assholes have done in God's name, and I can't fairly be held accountable for them either. The dominant Christian culture really shouldn't be held responsible for our crazies anymore than hippies should be held responsible for Charles Manson, or the Gay community should have to explain Jeffrey Dahmer.
But I ramble. Thanks for editing, in any case. 'Preciate it.
- [2009/05/05] Maria S; Well if you want to talk about past misdeeds, I am sure that us Catholics are about as guilty as it comes. I believe in honesty. My Church did hide pedophiles from justice. They did start the crusades into the Holly land, they did start the Inquisition, and more. If you don't own up to your mistakes you repeat them. If the Church can't ask for forgiveness what hope is there for the rest of us. All powerful institutions abuse power.
Fast Eddie: That was easily fixed. Not that I personally care. No need for flamebait in the articles. I wonder about the premise, though. The West of the American continent was first settled/exploited by Spanish/French influences, so Catholics were there in force when the (primarily) British/Northern European influxes came in from the East. The founders of the nation were primarily of Protestant creeds, but I'm not sure there was any place on the continent where Catholics were ever particularly rare.
Phartman: Actually, a better idea would be to rename the article Chrisitanity Is Catholicism, because Protestant variants of Christianity are shown but never specifically identified; but Catholicism is always pretty clear in its depiction (again, because it's so easy to recognize). The U.S. is never really painted with a broad brush on matters of religion anyway.
Fast Eddie: Nah. The thesis is a little plainer, now. Pulled ...
- Indeed throughout much of America's history the Pope and the Church of Rome have been the Bogeyman. Militant groups from the Know-Nothings to the Ku-Klux Klan raised the awful spectre of a Catholic plot to take over America (when they weren't worrying about Jewish plots, anyway). except for westerns. Obviously Catholics barely existed in the west. Any non-Mexican religious minority back then were Mormon, Amish, Quaker or Hutterite, but in films set in Modern America, America is Catholic.
// later: Just to head off some flames ...
- Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)
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Phartman: I know the numbers, but you gotta remember that between that 52% there are still numerous denominations that further split them up. My church didn't even have a denomination.
Fast Eddie: Um, yeah. The flames I were thinking of was potentially from Catholics thinking they were being perceived as more of a minority than they are.
Phartman: Right, and when you factor in those different Protestant denominations, they may actually even less of a minority. Cool, huh?
Hasher Britarse: And on a less important topic, Marshall Law (two ls) is the Bruce-Lee clone in the Tekken games. I meant the bloke with the barbed-wire bondage fetish and the geek mask who only uses one l, Marshal Law.
SAMAS: In answer to the A Team entry: Because Baptist ministers usually don't wear collars.
Hasher Britarse: Ah, but they often do in the media, look at Jesse Custer in Preacher, for instance. Anyway, for what it's worth, many of the Baptist ministers I've met did wear collars in church, but not always outside it.
Phartman: With Baptists it seems to be a matter of choice. In the media, it's usually just a convenient way to identify a clergyman regardless of denomination.
Scientivore: Interesting tangent. Sounds like a candidate for a Hollywood Dress Code. As for America Is Catholic, I think that we haven't even scratched the surface of the good examples yet. It seems like everything that had anything to do with the Mafia, the supernatural or eschatology eventually ended up in a Catholic church. Once there, someone would give a confession; kill a priest, monk or nun; get stabbed on the altar; and/or shatter a stained glass window.
Kilyle: So glad this trope is here. I'm leaning toward Christianity Is Catholic myself, unless someone can make a good case for this trope not being present in, say, England, Canada, etc. It's already noted as present in Japan.
Let's see... is this list going to be only those occurrences where the lack of contrast really stands out, or is it going to include more like just examples of Catholics in the media, perhaps contrasted with the few non-Catholic Christians that show up now and again? Statistical contrast?
'Cuz I'm thinking: The excellent portrayal of People of Faith in Return to Me, which was all Catholic (an entire family of Italians and Irishmen)... Father Mulcahy, who could perform ceremonies in all denominations but was himself a Catholic... Hellsing, of course, which is a subversion of sorts (Protestant vs. Catholic)... I think also Trigun to some extent (big church with big windows, don't recall it more specifically)... I'd guess without any info in front of me that it's widespread in crime shows (CSI, Law and Order, etc.), both positive and negative... all of which I haven't enough info to put up as examples (maybe I could do the Return to Me one later, though).
What about the portrayal in the past? Is this more realistic? I'm recalling the marriage ceremonies in, say, the various Robin Hood movies. For the area and time frame, were they basically accurate?
I remember having a huge fight with a friend over whether Catholic had been the only game in town during a certain stretch of history. She insisted that that was it. My history teacher pointed out that there's never been a unified church ever since the schisms started a few years after Jesus died. And there was the, what, Greek Orthodox holding the fort in one part of the world during the time that my friend was saying Catholics Were It. Heh.
Red Shoe: Mmm. I think the Roman Church was the only "serious" game in town between the council of Nicea in 325 and the Great Schism in 1054. You had other sects who believed things that counted as heresy under the official party line, but they weren't considering themselves a separate church, just "the only Catholics who actually have it right".
So if your friend was talking outside that little window of time, it sounds like you win.
Fast Eddie: Looks like a consensus on the name change. Pulling the trigger.
Phartman: So it was a good idea for a name change, hmm?
Mister Six: It actually isn't present in England, where clergy are usually shown as being from (unsurprisingly) The Church of England.
Silent Hunter: For the time period and location of Robin Hood (12th century England), Catholicism was the only game in town. It would take Martin Luther three centuries later to erode the Catholic supremacy in Western and Central Europe.
- [2009/05/05] Maria S; Martin Luther won't be until later, but Henry the 8th started the Church of England well before Luther ever walked, so that is correct. Also, England has already backed away from the Pope before that. Henry the 2nd was often at odds with the Church of Rome, so the English clergy were different then other Catholic clergy. That makes Robin Hood correct with Ch O priest
Mister Six: Right, but anything set in the modern day usually defaults to Co E vicars. Catholics are usually reserved for the Scots and the Irish, or for stories involving paedophilia or priestly sexual tension (since vicars can marry).
Kilyle: Yeah, I understood that for a long period the Catholic church was the only official church in certain areas. Not that there weren't people following other versions of the faith in those areas, but they weren't officially sanctioned or allowed to practice freely. But anyway. Nice to know about the Church of England bit.
Sebastian Thanks to whoever added the Great Schism to my list! I like to be complete.
Daibhid C: Not true about Henry VIII preceding Luther, though. They were contemporary (born about a decade apart, died within a year of each other), and Henry was excommunicated, dissolved the monastaries and so on in 1534, eight years after Luther founded his church. Initially, though, the C of E wasn't Protestant; Henry persecuted Lutherians as much as he did Catholics.
And while Scots Catholics do exist, the Scots = Catholics idea is Did Not Do The Research, possibly based on Scotireland. Most Scottish Christians are various denominations of Presbyterianism, each (according to local stereotype) more dour and stern than the last.
Twin Bird: "Virtually anywhere in the United States, any given small town of that sort is likely to have three or four Protestant churches and one Catholic church that may or may not have a resident priest. In the novel, the Catholic priest is the only clergy mentioned."
Um...are you sure about this one? Southern Maine seems to be one of the few places it wouldn't be likely.
Ialdabaoth: I'm not sure whether the following point belongs in this trope (hence my raising it in Discussion) but in many TV shows and movies, Judaism Is Hasidic. Of course, there are plenty of self-identified secular Jewish characters, like Ross and Monica of Friends, Woody Allen's standard nebbish protagonist, and such. But whenever a practising Jewish character appears, he (and it's almost always a "he") is a Hasid, complete with black hat and coat, sidecurls, long beard, and an exaggerated Yiddish or Brooklyn accent. This, despite the fact that even most Orthodox Jews neither dress nor talk like that, let alone practising Reform, Conservative or other Jews.
Po8: So what's with the borked capitalization?
Fast Eddie: Just pulling "real life" out of the article. It gets natter-y, and I broke a tooth on the 4th "This Troper". Real Life
- Subverted. At least, for this troper. It gets a bit annoying when you ask people "are you Catholic?" and they answer "no, I'm Christian." I realize you're Protestant but Catholicism is Christianity too.
- Well, some Protestant religions don't like Catholicism in a big way.
- One of the ramifications of this is that two of the original five officially recognised religions in Indonesia were "Kristen" and "Katolik".
- In Mexico any other christian church that is not catholic is called... christian, but it is implied that it means "the other kinds of christians."
- This troper once saw a person declare (on an internet forum) that he used to be Catholic but had converted to Christianity. This troper would have gone a little crazy on him if she hadn't been reading an archived conversation.
- This troper has encountered the trope played straight, in the form of multiple Catholics who deny that non-Catholics are Christian. (To be fair, I've met the subversions as well.)
- This troper's mother, grandmother and sister are all rather devout Anglicans, and thus, inversions. Trust me, I've tried explaining to them that Catholics are Christian too, but when they use logic like "Catholics aren't Christian, they don't believe in God", it's really, really hard.
- And this troper seriously can't tell the difference. It's possibly because I haven't studied much religion, but (to quote Simon Pegg in Hot Fuzz) "I'm open to the concept of religion, just not entirely convinced by it." Christians? Catholics? Protestants? Honestly, is there really that big a difference between them all?
- There are definitely nontrivial differences. The thing is, most followers of any widespread faith — even earnestly faithful ones — aren't hardline adherents to every nuance of doctrine, so the casual observer is likely to miss them (and probably won't care anyway).
- Religions are like genres of music. It all sounds the same when you're not into it. But if you really like metal, you know the differences between black metal and death metal and doom metal and speed metal and thrash. Christianity, and religion in general, is like that. Catholicism is like Christianity's Goth Metal.
- Sometimes it's simpler than saying "I'm non-denominational." This troper enjoys the confused looks on people's faces when she explains that she's Biblebaptiluthbyterian.
- This editor recalls some heated debate on an internet forum featuring a pair of people who thought A. all Christians are Catholics, and B. all Christians took the bible completely, word-for-word literally (which, as this troper understands it, isn't true for any sect) arguing against the rest of the forum, who, you know, made sense.
- Etherjammer: Removed the reference to The Dresden Files. Michael Carpenter's Catholicism is addressed and explored, and the author actually uses the character's religion as more than a placeholder for "Christian".
Idle Dandy: Just picking the nit because it's there: what's really being referred to here is "Christianity is Roman Catholic." Anglicans and others who follow apostolic succession are also "catholic." I also realize that the Episcopalian (noun) vs. Episcopal (adjective) confusion I have now complained about in the main article is actually present in the examples, but I'll leave that for now...
Andrew: Regarding the last point, Episcopal ministers in England and Scotland ARE titled "Reverend", not "Father". I don't know about America, I assume the reverse is true given the remark.
Anonymous: Then there are the Eastern Catholics, churches that follow Eastern style Christian traditions but do recognize the authority of the Pope. Heck, the Byzantine Catholics even cross themselves right to left (like the Eastern Orthodox), as opposed to the stereotypical left to right done by Latin Rite (i.e. "Roman") Catholics. Mind you, most of the Latin Rite people don't even know that the Easterns exist, much less Hollywood!
Dausuul: Tweaked the first paragraph to remove some of the elements that make me twitch uncontrollably.
Insanity Prelude: Still trying to help with cleanup :)
- His Dark Materials: Mary wants to have a sex life, thus she abandons the Church. Good thing the two aren't mutually exclusive in most denominations in our world... but Pullman should know that.
- Uh, she was a nun before she left. She probably just wanted to go all the way with the 'leaving' thing.
- Still, not only leaving the Order, but leaving the Church entirely and rejecting belief in God, just because she met one Portuguese guy whom she thought was cute, says a lot less about the Church than it does about Mary's idea of committing to something.
- Uh, she was a nun before she left. She probably just wanted to go all the way with the 'leaving' thing.
- More significantly, in Lyra Belacqua's world, there never was a Protestant Reformation, and an entity rules which has all the traditions, vows of chastity, and saint veneration of the Catholic Church combined with the lack of central organization that Protestantism gives. Maybe not very realistic, but then again, neither are shapeshifting souls, talking polar bears, and knives sharp enough to cut through the space-time continuum.
- Mary is from our world. She was a Catholic nun from one of the less strict sisterhoods, but the fact is that no Catholic monastic order allows sex life for their members - of course the worst they can do is to fire them if such thing happens, and often won't, but Mary is a woman of integrity and principle.
- More significantly, in Lyra Belacqua's world, there never was a Protestant Reformation, and an entity rules which has all the traditions, vows of chastity, and saint veneration of the Catholic Church combined with the lack of central organization that Protestantism gives. Maybe not very realistic, but then again, neither are shapeshifting souls, talking polar bears, and knives sharp enough to cut through the space-time continuum.
Oops — the entire Literature folder was invisible when folders were closed because the Film folder didn't have an end tag.
