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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Sikon: Links to ED now? I'm sorry, but I think we have to draw a line somewhere. I wouldn't object to Uncyclopedia, but ED is a breeding ground for hatred, libel and intolerance.

DieHard: Much of why I wrote the whole article was to have a page describing Gonterman in-depth that basically isn't Encyclopedia Dramatica. I placed the link there with full warning about the nature of the website because in spite of the hateful nature of it, it's still fairly accurate. If it's still inappropriate, the link can be removed.

Fluid: Hate site? Hm, opinions may vary I guess, but in my experience ED doesn't rise above mildly scathing. True hate takes a bit more.

David Foxfire: Oh, trust me on this. As one of their victims, I can truely say that they can be extremely vicious in their hatred. Also, they [used to] revel in their top position in Google Searches, which might as well be the Scarlet Letter. I had people try to have a conversation with me, but flat out refuse to give me their names, because they're afraid of associating with me, because of ED's article on me.

This Troper: That would be because the article is, as said, fairly accurate. They didn't want to associate with you because the article shows off that you're two trays of macaroni shy of a buffet.

Fast Eddie: No spoiler text in main article, please.

Edrobot: Please, as if anyone reads this guy's work.

Nolan Burke: Quite so. There's a reason we don't spoiler any of the stuff in the So Bad Its Horrible section, you know; same should apply here. Can I put it back?

Puppet Chaos: Possible Alternate Character Interpretation ... David Gonterman is in fact, an eccentric genius who intentionally produces awful work as something of a joke or else some form of statement about modern society and mediocrity. Or else he's just bad.

Also, I'd normally object to a link to ED, but I think in Gonterman's case, the page for him is actually rather low-level when it comes to hate (more like pity/bemusement), compared to some other pages on that site.

Kalle: Does anyone have a link to that It's Walky! guest strip? I'm morbidly curious.

The Toon Geekette: Here you go.

David Foxfire: I'd prefer the former description of me, Puppet, and you should have seen the ED article in it's hayday. Then they had a kid's sexual organs with the caption: 'This is Daveykin's muse LAWLZ' I wish I was kidding.

PuppetChaos: I removed "Purity Sue" under Foxfire/Scarlet PI, because a character who engages in fursuit sex is anything but pure.

Rann: You do know that the Sue traits are taken from the viewpoint of the author, not the audience, right?

PuppetChaos: I know, but my brain still recoils in horror. ...and I have my doubts as to Jim Goodlow being 'pure' in Gonterman's eyes, either. I mean, fursuit sex. FURSUIT SEX

PuppetChaos: There's now a 52 page preview of the new Blood and Metal book. It's... interesting. Also, a throwaway line (something about phlebotium or however you spell it) seems to suggest that he's now joined the ranks of TV Tropes-aware creators. Although I remember somebody linking him to his page on here, claiming TV Tropes is a 'troll site' ... so I'm convinced it was an intentional shout out. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy for some freaky reason. Also, he changed the reason for Eric/Davey losing his arm from black-history-teacher, or gang member (as in his original outline for the novel) shooting off his arm to losing it in a natural disaster. It may sound strange for me to stick up for Gonterman, but the man is capable of change and accepting criticism now ....improvement of quality of work, however... eh, I'll let you guys decide that one.

David Foxfire: Well, I appreciate people acknowledging that I actually listen to feedback—as long as it doesn't go into draemas that people accuse me of doing. But I have to go on record and state that Eric is not a Self-Insertion by any stripe.

David Foxfire Before you ask, yes, I'm the one you all are talking about here, and if you don't believe me, trace this edit.

I have to go on record and say that, despite the disgust I have with having two decades of my Failing posted for all to see and have it rank higher than my web page on Goggle, this site is considerably better then ED. Mainly because it's professional in it's posting; it doesn't go into "Let's screw this guy for being a worthless wanker on the tubes" like most of the troll sites do. For that I have to hand it to you.

Now, if I can get My own web page to actually be Number 1 in Google Searches so I don't have to worry about people rejecting me out of hand, it'll be perfect. After all, Puppet Chaos, the new BAM could actually be somewhat decent. But if nobody's going as much as look at it because being around me is considerably worse than watching Two Girls One Cup...

PuppetChaos Penguin King "Oh my God, it's David Gonterman!" Gonterman "Shut up, and light this candle."

Wow, seriously, it's the Man Himself!. I'd type up a long response but like, um... it'd be really tl;dr.

In article news: I'm gonna screw around with this article and hack it into a shape I like. It'll probably look a bit weird over the next few days until I get everything right.

Anoniguy ...Whoa, I was about to propose a theory that David Gonterman was a fictional character, an elaborate, decade-spanning hoax. But there's the man himself. O_o

PuppetChaos: No, he's most definitely real... or else the most dedicated team of trolls in all of existence. Besides, a hoax would probably aim higher than the internets.

Wild-card: I'm glad David Foxfire can take critisim a lot better then what was initally reported, (or then he was before, haven't been following it for long). Good luck with the webpage thing. Not sure how I feel about links to Sonichu page being here though, it seems a little too much of a stretch. YMMV I guess.

PuppetChaos: Gonterman used to be horrible about taking criticism, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore... I once critiqued a plot point of his in the new rewrite of Blood and Metal (Eric being convicted of 'generational racism' after getting in a violent fight to save a kid from a gang or something), basically saying that any court on American soil would laugh at such a concept and it just came off as ignorant (even to a politically incorrect git like me); David Gonterman agreed with me, then ended up excising the entire plot point and replacing it with a natural disaster. I was stunned. And while his new stuff reeks of tokenism; it's quite a contrast to The Piasa Bird and American Kitsune. Maybe he just got more chillaxed about things as time went on.

I think Chris plays Uwe Boll to Gonterman's Ed Wood. Gonterman may churn out some absurd stuff, but I'd argue some of it's entertaining in the same way Plan Nine is; because it just reaches this sublime peak of hallucinogenic madness on occasion. Chris just rapes Sonic and Pokemon like how Uwe Boll does to any franchise he touches. (sorry for that mental image)

Wild-card: I agree that they are good comparisons, but I'm still not sure if it's really related enough just because they both have a place here in So Bad Its Horrible. I think David Gonterman belongs more in So Bad, It's Good nowadays anyway. Maybe just keep them both in the index? To each his own though, I'm not really against it, I just don't see it as neccesary.

PuppetChaos: I'm not the one who originally put in that edit linking to CWC (although I was the guy who made the WMG suggesting Gonterman was really 'Solidus Chris', lol) maybe I'm indirectly responsible.

This article needs some hacking down and editing, anyway; mostly in the first part... since at lot of the stuff about his infamy is covered in the descriptions of the individual 'verses. To use internets terms: TL;DR.

I wholeheartedly agree that Gonterman belongs in So Bad It's Good; people exaggerate some of his stuff... I mean, FoxFire is nowhere near half as horrific as Sonichu, and I personally think it's funnier in the So Bad, It's Good way. (Sonichu is just... a trainwreck... a train full of clowns and confetti)

David Foxfire: Tell me about it on CWC. Geez, when you have me facepalming at you, you have got to be pretty bad off. And just like the trope page says, I do not fap on web camera. God willing, I never will.

PuppetChaos: Hacked down the article's intro bit, it was just an imposing wall of text before.

I also apologize for comparing Gonterman to Shoji Kawamori, but it was the only way to get across my point (for example, every Macross pretends to exist that Macross Zero never existed, but Macross Frontier suddenly acknowledges its existence)... although Kawamori seems to have gone batshit insane lately and enjoys spouting off strange opinions about marriage or monogamy or how he wants to have threesomes on a regular basis or whatever, so maybe it's not so far fetched.

Wild-card: Good job PuppetChaos. This page looks a little better now, padding was getting a bit distracting. At least the ED page apparently is less spiteful then it once was, (I'm only going on second hand accounts of it. I don't really want to read either one). Hey David are you using some wiki format on the website? That's the only one I know of that uses a sidebar like that but I could be wrong.

  • PuppetChaos: I also hacked down the part about American Kitsune, just leaving in the plot vitals and why it's so infamous even today.

David Foxfire: I dabbled with Mediawiki (and Google Sites) on occasion, but I still come back to something simpler: XHTML 1.0 Transitional + CSS. I've even developed a framework file for it.

Kalle: MSTron seems to have died :( any backups of the site or its comics?

PuppetChaos: I have zips of FoxFire and Livewire Latte ...gimmie some time, and I can upload what I have of Planeswalker and what little of Night Soldiers there is.

Mysterious MS Tron Ninja: Here's the Internet Cache of the MS Tron website.[1] It seems Warskunk (the host) did something to break the code, since I doubt Seg (website programmer) has touched the website in a few years. Check the Old Index link for some of the older comics. Hengeyokai won't appear (and who knows how many other comics) because Seg leeched from their webserver. (we did not know this at the time)

  • Having looked it over, it seems Seg locked the internet archiver from grabbing past the first page of each comic. It may exist further back in the machine, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

David Foxfire: Here's a question that's been bugging me for more than a month now: Someone claimed that I could be someone else posing as me just so I can stir up dramas for other trolls to feed off of, and possibly further drag my name through the crapper without even my knowledge.

Does something like that actually happened? Anywhere? And if so, does it happen all the time? I'm actually curious about this, because I have never stooped as far as to use an alias (outside of a character I write about) and claimed that I'm another person on the internet. I had a friend of mine stand up for me one time only to be accused as being me. (The thinking being that I have no actual friends online and the only way I can prove that I have a friend is to play one online.)

It doesn't take a genius to figure out how dangerous that can be. (Hmmm, I wonder how many people are out there posing as CWC?)

PuppetChaos: I don't think anyone really has posed as you, at least not to my knowledge. As for people posing as CWC, they're playing off of his insecurity about people 'stealing' Sonichu from him (it goes without saying that the whole idea of Sonichu is uncopyrightable)... they never intend to actually fool anyone, just incite rage on his end.

DavidFoxfire: So that's it? I thought that people would pose as me, go on a chat room expecting to get trolled, and then create a drama in my name. But if that never happened, I guess it's just my shell shock over the crap I got talking.

Wild-card: The thing is, it is really easy to deceive people on the internet. It's really only used to either hurt people or get a reaction from them. Rather disgusting, really. People can't really know who someone is unless an IP address is traced, that seems like way to much effort for the usual troll to get to someone anyway. But I've never heard of this happening to you, and I haven't seen it on Deviantart, Youtube or whatever. So hopefully it doesn't actually happen to often.

DavidFoxfire: I'm certainly glad it doesn't. And I wouldn't hear people wondering whatever my posts could have been like that unless someone actually did it to somebody. That's what disturbs me.

PuppetChaos: Hey, G-man... I've always wondered, why exactly was Rael in the original Foxfire comic? Did you know him or something?

DavidFoxfire: Only on occasional I Ms and stuff. I used Rael, with him/her's permission in order to get some readers. I don't go that route anymore. I assume that, if someone gathers enough courage to talk to me, they'd get it whether I encourage them or not.

The Gunheart: Hey, David. I once stumbled upon your Deviant Art page and discovered you liked the Chinese cartoon "Hong Mao and Lan Tu" (or however it was romanized). Thanks for showing where one could see the episodes. I was you think you could actually create a TV Tropes page on it? You're probably the only troper here who has seen the whole series (well, the Wuxia themed ones, anyway. Turns out they were apparently the hosts of a children's lineup and also had a few other cartoon series set in a sci-fi world).

DavidFoxfire: I'll be honored to. Anything to spread that series into areas outside of China. (If you know my E-Mail addy or at least the forum in my Web Page—use Gunheart for your ID so that I'll approve you quick—we can talk about it.)

Wild-card: Hope your not bothered by all the questions here David, I would ask it on your site, but I have a question about it. On the Site sign-up in it says you cannot use a fake e-mail address and you have to give some sort of personal infromation,(to make sure the new member is not a troll) I tried accessing your site, but I don't really want to give away my name or address on the internet at the moment. Do I need to show you that to get on the site, or is there some other suitable information?

DavidFoxfire: I'll be removing the forums after a while anyway, mainly because of the lack of activity, mainly because of this restriction. I had to at the least require a working E-Mail because not only because of trolls, but also because I get a lot of spambots running assummed E-Mails. And there's also the tendency for posters on forums to constantly go negative, such as with the forums on Mookie's Dominic Deegan. (I swear, from the forums alone, it's almost like the man just can't do a single thing right.)

But I'm also available on I Ms, such as davidfoxfire on AIM. And once I know you're not out to send me pictures of goatse or rail on about a typo you just helped me find has stricken you to the gore of your being, we can have a decent conversation :)

PuppetChaos: Looking at this page, the current layout seems awkward and clumsy. I'm going to shunt all the descriptions of his works to the top, and the tropes to the bottom, as opposed to listing them underneath the individual series, as some of them are redundant. I might also cut out some of the tl;dr padding and give shorter descriptions for the shorter stuff he's done.

Planet Cool: Hey David, now that you're actually here, what can you tell us about yourself and the reason / ideas behind your fan work? I don't mean to bash you, troll you, or any alternative thereof, but I see you're quite a different person from the mad caricature you're always depicted at, and I'd really like to get an "insider's view" of your comics, fanfics, etc. Sorry for being so vague about all this; I'm keeping my terms broad so this little request isn't misconstrued as any sort of attack.

Megafighter3: Say, David, if you're cool with it, I can see about finding someone to remake American Kitsune for you. I would do it myself, but that requires a working knowledge of Sailor Moon I do not possess. I lucked out on Tallest Kree being a Slytherin fangirl, improving some of the finer details of my My Immortal remake, but I'd rather trust an expert on this.

DavidFoxfire In order that they're asked: 1) Telling people about myself is going to take longer than this list. It would be better if you E-Mail me at davidfoxfire (at) foxfirestudios [dot] net so that I can do that at a longer length. 2) Most of the ideas come from little flashes of fancy or what if's that go around my head. Sometimes—such as with Scarlet PI; if you remember right, Pippkin was first a character in the original BAM!—the idea comes from an item from an unrelated story which other peoples take up on and work on in their own time. I spend a lot of time thinking outside the box and straying from a fandom's beaten track and there's a lot of story gems to be found there. 3) Well, I kinda find TV Tropes a lot more inviting than, say, Portal of Evil or Encyclopedia Dramatica, because the articles weren't written in the mindset of "I must have my shits and giggles, and it I have to get them at someone else's expense, so be it." TV Tropes don't encourage people to make dramas with their victims. ED is known for doing that. 4) Do you mean remake the AK section on the page on me here, or the story itself? That's a story I'd rather want to stay buried, for obvious reasons.


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