Reviews WesternAnimation / The Incredibles

I guess you're looking at it from Syndrome's perspective? You've got no powers kid, go home?

I guess that's fair enough really. It doesn't justify Syndrome killing all those people but he started off as some poor kid who just wanted to help.

Darn I used to love the Incredibles :D. Syndrome was always one of the worst Pixar villains (Pixar don't really do villains so much come to think of it. Most of the films with proper villains (and not just that kid who you never quite see properly) are pretty weak...

I think the message your taking from the film is totally unintentional. If anything, we are expected to identify with the superhero protagonists, not the everyday bubbs who stand in the background. Though we'll never be as powerful as them, we do sometimes get the feeling that we're being held back, unable to be the people we want to be. I suppose that does lead into another, rather unfortunate aesop.

And you weren't offended by the Accidental Aesop in UP which is: Don't have role models because they will always be low-lifes

or the Cars-verse: The City boy has to change his ways,but the country bumpkin is fine the way he is

Rather curious actually

What? Syndrome was a great villain. Other than Lotso, Randall, and Hopper, he probably the only villain that wasn't the Punch Clock kind or obliviously one. Even Stinky Pete was only a Well Intentioned Extremist. But Syndrome was Genre Savvy, the first true Moral Event Horizon crosser, and also hilarious.

I never used the word "offended". Stop putting words in my mouth.

@terlwyth (incidentally are you welsh? :D ) But didn't you feel a bit sorry for Syndrome?

Also coming to think about it, although maybe not quite so stressed in the Incredibles this is a flaw to genetic based superheroes in general. For everyone else they;ve just got to live with not being a hero because they can't do the same things. Maybe that's another reason why people like Batman so much (that and the facts he's the gosh darn Batman :D )

(The Batman who inherited billions of dollars, so as to buy enough equipment and training to make himself a superman).

@Purple Dalek Sorry,sorry that's the impression I kinda got from reading the review.

It's just that Pixars films do have a lot of these Unfortunate Implications in 'em,and I was simply wondering why that's the one that strikes ya'.

@tomwithnonumbers Of course I felt sorry for Syndrome at first,but he crossed over the MEH very quickly,and frankly he was " a good mixture of funny and evil",and probably the most developed evil character until Lotso showed up. Randle was just jealous,Waternoose had little screen time,and Hopper was just like a Fat Bastard,not much extra depth to any of them.

What no nods to Iron Man? Or Spiderman who built those web shooters originally?

Personally, I'm not sure what the "message" of the movie was supposed to be, if there was one, and I can't think of one that's kind of dubious in it's moral value.

So I find it best to ignore any and all messages and just look at it as a character piece. Just because the characters believe things doesn't mean we have to.

And what I think is that kids don't really pay attention to moral values taught by television and film anyway. I know I didn't when I was a kid watching this film. Especially not underlying moral values that you have to read between the lines to get.

And besides, there's a lot of different ways to interpret the message of this movie. I think the biggest thing I got out of it was "use power responsibly". Because the superheroes didn't, they were forced to face government sanctions. When Bob snuck off to go be a superhero in a shady business deal, it blew up in his face by creating an invincible death robot. And of course, there's Syndrome, who did nothing responsibly and got what was coming to him.

Fight crime responsibly. If you think you or someone you know might have a heroism problem, dial this hotline.

"Use your superpowers responsibly" is a bit of a Space Whale Aesop isn't it? And kids are smarter than we give themn credit for. A lot of them notice little details in TV Shows and films because they don't have any pesky real life problems distracting them.

For the record, the actual morals were, work as a team, stay as a family. And then they had individual ones for each character arc, play nice and don't be ubercompetitive, have a little confidence in yourself, give your kids some trust, trust your wife.

But the thing about the Syndrome arc was that he did genuinely have the same sort of set-up and screentime that the other arcs had. He was very much in Mr Incredibles play-as-a-team line and he genuinely wanted to be the team player. But instead he got rejected, his dreams crushed and learn the error of trying to be a good person, whereas Mr Incredible went on to realise the error of his ways and become a good person.

The thing is Syndrome's faults were what others, the heroes did to him and his limitations in not being born a hero. And then, even when he's full out evil, his plan is to give every person in the world the chance to have super-powers eventually, and the heroes stop this from happening.

I think the good things about the incredibles are still good, but this was a genuine story misstep

^^I said powers, not superpowers. You could take it as a metaphor for anyone that has some sort of responsibility to others.

^Like I said, there's a lot of different messages that could be taken away from this movie. For instance, the message you could get from Syndrome's arc could have been "the people you look up to are still people just like you and have their own problems to deal with" instead of "some people are better than others". It's because he didn't realize the former and believed the latter that he became a villain. That there's more than one way to interpret it is a sign that it was well written, IMO.

I'm not convinced, most of the fan base interpreting Eragon as an omnicidal psychopath probably aren't claiming that it was because it was well written :D

It wasn't like Mr Incredible had a problem per say, apart from a big personality flaw. He was just a bit of dick. In a normal story arc he'd realise that what happened to Buddy is his problem and that he needs to help him, instead he deals with the problems he created by destroying them.

The Incredibles is still my favourite Pixar film, (maybe Toy Story 1 beats it out with nostalgia value). It's a fun film, the family interact with each other really well, when I was younger Violet was cute. The brother/sister thing was good, the story arcs for the family were good. There was lots of action, fun jokes. It didn't take itself as seriously as other Pixar films and found that sweet spot where you could sit back and enjoy it but it was still surprisingly deep.

But when I think of Syndrome I think of this (he's also unfortunately identical to Rumplestiltskin in Shrek4 which is unfortunate). Syndrome was short, ginger, enthusiastic, eager, helpful, rejected and mistreated. Everyone else gets to learn to get past their flaws and Syndrome doesn't.

The cool think about the Incredibles was that it was a fun adventure superhero flick right? Everything was played up. The villain they needed was some tall dark brooding shadow. Maybe even a cackler. The Underminer teaser was brilliant, mad bad fun. They needed someone like him. 'If everyone's special, no-one is' doesn't even fit well with the rest of the film. It was all about family and teamwork which is all kinds of messily interacting with that message. What's more, Syndrome is still a kid. What kind of villain is that?

I don't want to be down on this film, I don't want to make you have to defend the Incredibles. It's one of my favourite all time films. I think the incredibles were actually probably the best set of characters in a Pixar film. Dory was cool, but she's obviously there as a joke, a narrative device, whereas their family felt like people. Edna was great. Freeze was great 'Honey, where is my SUPER _suit_?!' was a good line, it's stuck with me. 'Fly home, Buddy' was also a powerful line. It just went the wrong way in the story

I never sympathised with Syndrome, he was rejected but he tried to force himself to be Mr.Incredible's sidekick with no other incentive than because I said so. I don't think he was mistreated since the only thing he managed to do was put himself in danger and cause the villain to escape. I could had been more synpathetic if somehow things would had happen right away, but he grew up and in all those years he never thought that the reason Mr.Incredible was "dickish" then was because he only caused him trouble. Then he went and took it out on all superheros and arranged things to be viewed as a superhero by putting people in danger (since he was the one who knowingly programed the robot).

^^ Well that's the thing; I don't think it's all about family. Half the film has Mr. Incredible sneaking off on his own to set up the villain unwittingly and try to recover the glory days. You could say that just drives home your point, but it does for one of mine as well. I think it's nice they tried to make a more complex villain for once, and they should have. Even though kids were going to watch it no matter what, I definitely saw it marketed as a more adult Pixar film at the time of its release, and it isn't hard to see why. And it's not like anything I'm saying put Syndrome in Designated Villain territory in the same way as your Eragon example; he's still very much evil. Not to mention wrong. That's why the villain was the one who said the "If everyone's special..." line. He was wrong. Once again, it isn't about what kind of power you have, it's about what you do with it. Mr. Incredible and the other superheroes all eventually did good with their powers. Syndrome did not.

^Agreed, mostly.

I don't think the film's moral is "Some people are just better than others". I think it was "don't throw away your family in pursuit of glory days". That's the lesson Bob learned and confessed when Syndrome caught them all, and that's the lesson Syndrome didn't learn, because he wanted glory so bad.

the Mr Incredible stuff though is basically meant to be a lighter representation of marital unfaithfulness and midlife crisis which is still family topics. But family is family and that does mean older as well as younger. I still enjoy this film now.

I just... I don't know I don't even feel that Syndrome is more complex. It's basically your bog standard Freudian Excuse. In fact I was looking at that page, because there's another bad trope as well and so I was clicking on the links on Freudian Excuse (because a heck of a lot of that description matches up with Syndrome) and look whose on the page quote for the stock phrase after a Hanibal Lecture from someone suffering from a bit of Freud. Whos Laughing Now? (This is the other trope I was looking for)

A more complex villain is more sympathetic or more motivated, whereas Syndrome was _evil_ with really stock motivation, the difference being instead of being bullied out school by randomers, he was bullied by the hero this time.

I don't know, there's only so far I can go with this. I really am not the sort of person who tries to argue that Orcs are lightside, or that the Stormtroopers brought structure to the world. I championed Alan Rickman in Die Hard, but that was because I _liked_ Hans Gruber and thought he was a really interesting villain. I don't like Syndrome, he's even a little repulsive it's just... I guess it feels like it isn't his fault that he was that way. The Joker is a cool complex villain...Buddy is just...ugh

This isn't a logical thing and you can come up with the cleverest argument in the world and I'm not going to like him, or feel he was a good character, or that he was well linked in, or had a good back story because this is just how I feel about this. I guess equally by now there's nothing I can say to you either

I think the main moral is that "esponsibility is far more important than personal glory. Mr Incredible resented the responsibility of having a family and living 9 to 5. He misses the buzz and dreams of being a hero again. Syndrome kind of wants the same thing; not content with being a normal person, who demands the glory of being a hero. Both want something they shouldn't have.

The key difference isn't that Bob is a superhero, and Syndrome isn't. The key difference is that Bob is a good person who still feels a duty to others. Ultimately, a sense of responsibility to win out against glory. Syndrome however is willing to disregard the lives of others, and is utterly self serving. He isn't interested in helping anyone, he just wants the praise and the sense of self-importance.

So the moral is "with great power comes great responsibility?"

(Sorry, had to say it.)

Even as a kid, when I first saw the movie, I thought the moral was "Some people are just better than others", and I had a lot of experience firsthand with that kind of moral so it made the most sense to me to this day. To that end, at worst Syndrome comes off as a Strawman Has A Point character for me.

Me, I took away from it as a child also that "Some people are just better than others at certain things. You're one of these people. Find what you're good at." So not a broken aesop for me at least.

I never got the "some people are just better than others" vibe from this movie. I guess I can sort of see how that might come through, but ultimately Syndrome was as good as or better than the heroes, but his power was his inventiveness and intelligence. I always found much more meaning in Mr. Incredible's rather arrogant "go home, Buddy." To me, a big part of the movie dealt with how one shouldn't turn away help when it is offered; just like Incredible turned away Buddy, and it caused problems for him down the line, society turned away the supers, and it caused trouble for them down the line.

Granted, Buddy was rather inept at the beginning of the movie, but maybe if Mr. Incredible had given him the time of day he could have been a great ally. I mean, the kid built rocket boots. That's gotta count for something. That's gotta be a sure sign of potential.

Gallows Noose pretty much summed up my thoughts on it. There definitely is an undercurrent of "Some people are just better at others than certain things", but thing is... that's true. Some people are better than others in terms of skill, and pretending that everyone can aspire to the same things is doing children a disservice. It's far better that they learn to come to terms with the fact that no, they might not be the best at everything and that's okay, because they probably have other skills.

I think that it's inherent to the Superhero Genre. Everyman heroes are far and few between; I'm not denying they exist and even many superpowered ones come from humble/common origins empowered by luck but of the ones that come to theatres, they're mostly unrealistically awesome people who beat up people who work hard to get to their level.

I give this film credit for it that it makes Syndrome sort of sympathetic for it; I've always felt a little more for Luther and the guys who loose every time only to come back with new plans to beat their enemies. However this is a complex moral question to get accross to kids and so they show Syndrome as taking it too far and stepping into the wrong; Mr. Incredible clearly should have given him a chance [though it would be dangerous for someone so little] but just because someone dismisses you for being too weak/too young, you shouldn't dedicate that sort of time to proving them wrong like Syndrome does.

The message could have been handled better by showing a mundane person making it into the crew and helping out since they didn't go bitter like Syndrome and it's a thing that needs work but I feel like this is something that should be injected into a lot of Superhero films.

It's not the "some people are just better than others" issue that's the problem, it's the "and you have to put up with that" part that seals the deal. In reality, all skills are much more a matter of dedication and effort rather than raw talent, and even inborn physiological deficiencies can be overcome with technology - which is exactly what Syndrome was doing with his gadgets. Engineering is after all a learned skill rather than a genetic gift.

In real life, you don't tell people with eye-glasses that they'd never be as good as "true seers"; and in a superhero story, you don't tell people born without superpowers that they'll always be mediocre... Spider-Man, the Hulk, Iron Man and Captain America might take offence to that.

Agreed, indiana404.

I mean, now that I've gotten older I significantly appreciate this film more, but while it does have its moments, it's not Pixar's best.

I think the moral in Syndrome's arc is actually:

"Some people start off ahead of the curve and look down on you for that, but if you catch up or surpass them through hard work, don't hold a grudge and unleash a giant spider bot on them for kicks".

Let's face it, Syndrome is a psychopath who Mr Incredible had the misfortune of cutting. Mr Incredible was a jerk, but Syndrome is still the guy utterly in the wrong throughout the entire film. He could literally used all his technology to become a straight hero, no problem.

And pretending like everyone grows into a more mature person is deceptive and simplistic. Syndrome might have seemed like a sweet kid, but nobody goes full supervillain over a simple rejection. Maybe he went to multiple heroes and kept trying, sure. But the reaction of 'you're a child wearing homemade rocket boots that'll get you killed, go home' is reasonable and most people would see that.

Really, this actually feels like another form of Victim Blaming. 'Oh, I wanted to be a hero, but my hero rejected me' is not an excuse.

Ironically, victim blaming also applies to Bob\'s own arc, where he himself is angry that people don\'t like his brand of heroism. Even Syndrome\'s plan of eventually giving all people superpowers was treated as the worst thing ever - perish the thought for the born winners to be like everyone else. Both want to play hero in spite of everyone else\'s actual wishes. The difference is that Bob already had his glory days, while Buddy simply never had a chance due to the hero ban. Given he grew up to be a tech mogul, he\'d more than likely done a greater service to society through his inventions, but - and here\'s the real aesop of the film - he couldn\'t let go of past aspirations, just like Bob couldn\'t let go of his. Funnily enough, if Buddy had just started releasing super-tech on the open market, his ultimate goal would\'ve been achieved, while Bob\'s would have been crushed forever. After all, it\'s not like you can really be a hero when you don\'t have physical powers above everyone else, right?