Reviews Literature / Haruhi Suzumiya

- The series was conceived for the broadcast order. What you said only applied to the chronological order. It's not valid criticism when it was "meant" to be watched in broadcast order, with the chronological order only serving as an "ah, I see" to the Jigsaw Puzzle Plot.

- You act like Season 1 is the only thing the story cosists of and then complain that this and that wasn't featured in Season 1, when it actually did, in later parts. For one, Haruhi almost gets punched by Kyon for taking her Lack Of Empathy too far. Yuki does develop more human emotions, but not in Season 1.

Broadcast order's just a shoddy excuse to make the show more mysterious. "Ooooh they're talking about something weird we don't know about!" Then you have to watch the episode that takes place before this one to find out.

I can agree with you about the characters though. Yuki is especially boring. Emotionless, Instant Expert, every super power under the sun (except time travel). Haruhi pretty much has the same except emotionless is replaced by being a total sociopath. And the whole concept of having to keep her entertained and dignify her inflated ego or else she'll unknowingly destroy the world never sat right with me.

I know this isn't much of an argument, but Haruhi really mellows out in the novels. This development is shown in the second season, which chronologically occurs before the episode Live Alive.

I had to watch them in chronological order or I would've stabbed myself.

@Kashima Kitty: Yuki isn't boring per say; just had a lot of room to grow but didn't (in season 1). But I DO completely agree with your sentiments on Haruhi.

Maybe I'll change my mind some after I see the movie. But regardless of what it does, it can't change the fact that the second half of the first season was a pretty colossal waste of episodes with a not-finale.

@Draconis March

Yea, a lot of what I hear she goes through development wise (same goes for Haruhi) happens in the second season or way late into the light novels. But between the screwball plot that can't decide what it wants to be and the annoying characters I couldn't finish even the first season.

I've seen the second "season." All that seems to have happened is that she kind of sort of realized that people aren't tools for her to command to do whatever she wants (thanks to Kyon). It still wasn't apparent that she had changed in any significant way, though.

Update: Just finished the movie. It was AMAZING. 9/10. Would've been perfect... if Haruhi had actually changed at all. I guess she's just destined to be a self-centered, pushy bitch who *hardly* cares about other people forever and ever.

But I ADORED Yuki—or rather, adore her even more. She got some much-deserved focus, attention, and development. <3

I think the criticism is valid in the sense that season 1 (and even season 2) by themselves don't see the kinds of dramatic growth and development one might expect. That's fair. By an objective standard, the kinds of changes that occur in this series are slow to unfold, and not everyone has the patience or willingness to hang around for that.

That said, I must make an argument for episode order: the first season really doesn't work on a dramatic level in chronological order. In broadcast, you get the first half of Melancholy fairly quickly, The middle of the season gives most of the slice of life stuff (though, admittedly, there's no real good reason for "Remote Island Syndrome" to have "Mysterique Sign" sandwiched in-between), and then the end of Melancholy is the climax. Viewed as a season in and of itself, not having "Melancholy VI" at the end changes the mood quite a bit. That's the reason broadcast order is spaced out compared to chronological—once you finish the Melancholy arc, you're outside the main mystery of things. That's why chronological, in my mind, doesn't work nearly as well from a dramatic standpoint.

Truthfully, though, if you're looking for concrete indicators that Haruhi's become a better person, the obvious signs aren't until book 7. If that sounds like a long way away, bear in mind there are only four short stories (mostly from book 6) that have yet to be animated before book 7. Haruhi Season 3, if it were ever to come, would undoubtedly be all that put together (maybe plus the 2 short stories of book 8). Book 7 also gives Asahina some development as well.

But, I know what might come in the future is no substitute for what could've been in the present. Really, the folks at Kyoto Animation do an incredibly faithful job of adapting the series, and the fault for its problems in development or plot (though episode order is a different matter) should lie with Tanigawa.

You don't need to have a huge glaring Aesop for character development.

There's a difference between a huge glaring aesop and an obvious, nearly-perfectly-complete lack of change in the way one treats others/themself.

Yeah, that's kind of how personality changes work. Small, subtle, and slowly.

...Except that not even that really happened. The only taste we get is that of her sleeping in Kyon's hospital room at the end of the movie, but it's not even because she cares about him as a friend and not just an SOS member (or rather, can't admit this as being the case). Once he wakes up, she immediately begins to "penalize" him... for falling down stairs, hitting his head on the wall, and getting knocked out for 3 days.

What a bitch.

Learn to read between the lines.

"(or rather, can't admit this as being the case)"

Since you obviously didn't see it the first time.

There's an entire character archetype based on being a jerkass to someone you care about.

Sooooo... because there's an archetype for it, that means it's okay? And it's okay for them to continue being that way forever?

For you? No. For a lot of others? Yes.

If you can't stand Tsunderes, don't watch shows that have them as the main character.

Haruhi isn't a tsundere LOL. Ookami? Tsundere. Asuka Langley Soryu? Tsundere. Haruhi? Self-centered bitch.

At least tsunderes have another side.

"Haruhi isn't a tsundere LOL"

Judging from polls, over half the viewers disagree with you there. You're suffering from personal bias.

ROFL. Okay. So if she's a tsundere, tell me all the times she displays distinctly deredere behavior.

Also, links to these "polls" you site.

Uhh, sleeping in Kyon's hospital room?

I'm not going to link you to what you can find with a 5 second Google search.

I don't see the value in arguing this. If Draconis March thinks Haruhi's not redeemable, then that's on him/her.

S/He'd hardly be the first person to say, "Well, I was expecting someone likable, and Haruhi wasn't/didn't become that."

Good job. She did ONE thing. You see, the thing with tsunderes is... BOTH SIDES ARE SHOWN IN SIGNIFICANT QUANTITIES. A single out-of-character moment doesn't make a bitch a tsundere.

And if it'll only take 5 seconds to Google search, it should be all the easier for you to find them and prove it. And besides, "over half" doesn't mean shit in a poll. And personal bias? ROFL K. So judging based soley on what you observe right in front of you = personal bias. Makes perfect sense.

Good job. She did ONE thing. You see, the thing with tsunderes is... BOTH SIDES ARE SHOWN IN SIGNIFICANT QUANTITIES. A single out-of-character moment doesn't make a bitch a tsundere.

Wow, you mean a Tsundere character has a personality besides being Tsundere?

This is where you're supposed read inbetween the lines. You don't need "Haruhi actually cares" shoved in your face every 5 seconds to know that she does care.

And there are other deredere moments that she has that I can't be bothered to look for you.

And if it'll only take 5 seconds to Google search, it should be all the easier for you to find them and prove it.

No. You want proof? Do it yourself. You want to continue being ignorant? Then feel free to do nothing.

And besides, "over half" doesn't mean shit in a poll.

Hi my opinion means more than everyone else's.

And personal bias? ROFL K. So judging based soley on what you observe right in front of you = personal bias. Makes perfect sense.

Haruhi's a bitch and I hate her, therefore, she can't be a tsundere!

Uh... are you being retarded on purpose? Tsundere is a mix of two distinctly different personalities combining into a new supertype, dude. Look it up right here on this site.

News flash: "Over half" is not statistically significant in any way, shape, or form. And why there would even be a poll regarding her tsunderity is laughable at best. Again, even if such polls exist (and I have no desire to search for them), it'll still be meaningless. I don't care if there was a poll that reported that "over half" of people who've seen Evangelion say Asuka is a kuudere and not a tsundere, because it would be bullshit and just prove the fanbase is retarded. It would be pointless: It wouldn't automatically make her a kuudere.

I think you're forgetting that the argument was initially about her likability as a character, not her tsunderity. "She's a bitch with almost no redeeming qualities; therefore, I hate her" is the thought process. Tsunderity has nothing to do with her likability. I can like a character and they can also happen to be a tsundere; I can dislike a character and they also happen to be a tsundere; I can like a character who also happens to not be a tsundere; I can dislike a character who also happens to not be a tsundere.

News flash: "Over half" is not statistically significant in any way, shape, or form. And why there would even be a poll regarding her tsunderity is laughable at best. Again, even if such polls exist (and I have no desire to search for them), it'll still be meaningless. I don't care if there was a poll that reported that "over half" of people who've seen Evangelion say Asuka is a kuudere and not a tsundere, because it would be bullshit and just prove the fanbase is retarded. It would be pointless: It wouldn't automatically make her a kuudere.

The point I was trying to make was that her tsundereness was at least debatable, not clear-cut as you seem portray it as.

I think you're forgetting that the argument was initially about her likability as a character, not her tsunderity. "She's a bitch with almost no redeeming qualities; therefore, I hate her" is the thought process. Tsunderity has nothing to do with her likability. I can like a character and they can also happen to be a tsundere; I can dislike a character and they also happen to be a tsundere; I can like a character who also happens to not be a tsundere; I can dislike a character who also happens to not be a tsundere.

Huh, I wasn't actually arguing about her likability at all. Hell, even I think the character is a bitch overall, even if she's gotten a little better throughout the series and has a few dere dere moments.

You act as if Season 1 is the only thing that exists. Even barring the anime, there are the light/visual novels that have more, explain the characters better, etc.

I'll add Haruhi Suzumiya to my list of "which works of fiction are filled with overly defensive salty fanboys" alongside the Legend of Korra.

Only like ONE person took this from a rational standpoint (gee, like a review is supposed to be taken? *gasp*) the rest are just saying "Season 1 isn't the only one that exists" or something about the novels.

First off, this anime should be able to stand on its own. If it can't, then why should I watch it in the first place.

And if the novel explains it better, then why the heck are you defending it for newcomers (such as myself)? This is pathetic.

"I'll add Haruhi Suzumiya to my list of "which works of fiction are filled with overly defensive salty fanboys" alongside The Legend of Korra."

"Salty"? From what I've seen, of more than half the comments are faily objective.

"First off, this anime should be able to stand on its own. If it can't, then why should I watch it in the first place?"

Well, first off: most anime are based on manga and LN's. So most are done under the assumption that target audience is already somewhat familiar with the source material. And for those that aren't, the hope is usually that the anime will pique enough interest that they'll want to read the manga/LN.

"And if the novel explains it better, then why the heck are you defending it for newcomers (such as myself)? This is pathetic."

Well, if the newcomer is asking questions about it, isn't expected that those who're already familiar with it are gonna reply? So how is that pathetic?

It's generally a bad idea to base an opinion on a series after one season. Even if you don't want to search for the novels, a quick read through the work page and the character sheet could probably answer most of your questions and give you a clearer picture of the series and how the characters develop over time.

So most are done under the assumption that target audience is already somewhat familiar with the source material. And for those that aren't, the hope is usually that the anime will pique enough interest that they'll want to read the manga/LN.

In most situations, an adaptation is made with the mindset that the vast majority of the audience fits into the latter category. Many more people will generally watch anime than read manga or light novels, excepting the case that it's a series they really enjoy.

It's generally a bad idea to base an opinion on a series after one season.

And if the series only gets one season? Are you wrong for basing your opinion on the series off the entirety of the series? It's a bad idea in general to equate quality and opinions of an adaptation to that of the source material, since so many things can be changed or lost in the adaptation process.

"And if the adaptation only gets one season? Are you wrong in basing your opinion on the series off the entirety of the series?"

I suppose that's fair. Except Haruhi Suzumiya (which is the one being discussed) has more than one. Which is why I said it's a bad idea to judge it from just that season alone. It'd be like be like judging an entire webcomic after only the first chapter, or so. There's no telling what might've changed had you continued to read it.

As with most things, there's always exceptions. For example, I dropped Code Geass after the first episode. Eventually, I got around to looking at the work page and character sheet to see if I'd been too hasty in writing it off. From what I saw, I'd made the right call in dropping it and I haven't looked back.

On the other hand, I nearly did the same thing (for the same reason) wih Magick Chicks, but wound up being wrong. It's even become one of my favorites.

"It's a bad idea to in general to equate quality and opinions of an adaptation to that of the source material, since so many things can be changed or lost in the adaptation process."

Good point. But, that's also what makes those rare instances where the adaptation is faithful to the source material so good. Case in point: Street Fighter II: The Animated Movie.

If you thought Haruhi anime was wasted potential, read the novels. The anime is pretty shit compared to them. It Flanderizes the characters and removes a lot of the subtleties from the source material.