Discussion YMMV / BeautyandtheBeast

I think snowviolet is right that you take it very personally.

I just note that you shouldn't be adding any Zero Context Example entries. What makes her Purity Sue?

I just hate misuse of tropes because its annoying to clean up, that's all. Plus, Mary Sue is used for bashing and complaining about characters now a days, so I was just confused.

She's a purity sue because she has beauty and intelligence and she's usually happy and she always acts so pure all the time, despite the villagers seeing her as odd and Gaston lusting after her.

I don't think Belle qualifies as a Purity Sue.

According to the Purity Sue page: "Purity Sue pretty much exists to be loved by everybody for being (as the plot tries to suggest) "perfect" (or close enough) in every way that matters."

Belle is a good person, but she isn't perfect. She's socially awkward. She's curious to the point of foolishness. (She goes to the West Wing even though she was forbidden by her captor, who she knows has a violent temper.)

And most people don't love Belle. They thinks she's weird.

Then, can we agree that she does not qualify for a Mary or Purity Sue?

No.

"Socially awkward" and "curious to the point of foolishness" are pretty much hallmarks of the Purity Sue. They're exactly the kind of "endearing flaws" the trope discusses. And while the people don't all adore her, they don't dislike her and do appreciate her for shallow reasons. She has several men vying for her attention even though she's got those flaws. And the kicker is that the audience is supposed to think that them turning on her and her father is a flaw of them, not of her.

Agreed. Belle, like many (most) Disney heroines is flawless. Her faults aren't really faults—they're endearing at most, or otherwise make her better, not worse. For instance, the townsfolk think she's weird not because she's crazy or kooky, but because she's a woman who reads and dreams. You can't tell me that's actually a flaw. It's meant to highlight that she's actually better than everyone else, more special.

I'll point out that bit about being loved by everyone comes at the bottom and only supposes the reason she was made, and doesn't describe the actual character.

If you like Belle anyway, that just says Tropes Are Not Bad. Cinderella is one of the most beloved characters in the world, and she's 100% Purity Sue.

"For instance, the townsfolk think she's weird not because she's crazy or kooky, but because she's a woman who reads and dreams. You can't tell me that's actually a flaw."

Having dreams and reading aren't flaws. However, Belle pretty much completely ignores everyone around her - aside from her father - in favor of reading. I'd argue that this is a flaw. She isolates herself from others, to the point where she'd rather live in a fantasy world than interact with the real world.

Being a reader isn't a flaw. And that she reads even if she has to struggle for it - isn't it endearing? Ignoring stupid villagers isn't a flaw either.

I would say she is Purity Sue or Mary Sue, but still likeable. Tropes Are Not Bad and Tropes Are Tools, and fairy-tales usually have pure and ideal heroines, and there is nothing bad about it.

She's presented as being better than/above the villagers for ignoring them. And they still manage to not hate her for it. Gaston is legitimately trying to wed her. It's very clear that he wasn't alone. At worst, she was ignored. It's not like the people were throwing garbage at her on the streets.

I think the key thing to note is the tone. Belle is bothered by how the townspeople think of her. She worries to her father about whether or not she is odd. A Purity Sue wouldn't be. A Sue is an unrealistically idealistic character. She may have a backstory but she isn't affected by it. Being disliked despite being a good person is a Sue trait. However Belle is clearly affected by the villagers disliking her and it's one of the reasons she wants to escape the town.

Other flaws she may have:

• She's far too curious for her own good. She disobeys the Beast's one command. In fact him forbidding her to go to the West Wing is precisely why she wanted to in the first place. And the Beast is furious with her. A Sue would likely be Easily Forgiven or presented as the injured party. Belle isn't presented that way. She was told specifically not to go there and when she did, she faced the consequences.
• She made the incredibly stupid move of running out of the castle in the middle of a blizzard. As in she couldn't control her emotions and made a very rash decision. And as a result she nearly got killed. And nearly got the Beast killed as well. It's also worth noting that she wasn't able to fight off the wolves herself; she had to be saved.
• She's presented as someone who has to compromise along with the Beast. Like when she refuses to go to dinner with him. The film still shows her as stubborn and difficult. A Sue would still go to dinner but would sob into her feud, prompting the entire castle to feel sympathy for her.
• She's repulsed by the Beast when she first sees him. And she doesn't bother to hide it.

Belle is a good character but she's not a Sue. It seems there's no middle ground with the Disney women. Ariel is a flawed character yet she's accused of being a horrible role model. Belle is less flawed and gets Mary Sue accusations. Frankly in my opinion the only Disney Princess who comes close to being a Sue is Tiana - and she's still flawed.

Does Cinderella being bitter, snarky, and not always able to stand up for herself (though understandably so) really make her a Purity Sue?

Also, Belle being rightfully repulsed by a horrible monster is not a flaw. I'm starting to wonder if "flaws" is a word that's quickly losing its meaning among people, like overrated, Mary Sue, or literally.

And yes, she is exactly presented that way. SHE is portrayed as the victim who is 100% in the right, while the the beast is a big bully. Yeah, he shouldn't have scared her, but she had no right to violate her privacy, yet the movie seems to want you to think it was just her likeable curiosity and she's not really in the wrong.

In case any of you are interested, this article does a good job analyzing the flaws and strengths (and other traits) of the princesses: http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/disney-princess/articles/211847/title/dp-personality-analysis-part-2-early-renaissance-just-normal-girl there are also some for the others, including the oft-incorrectly called "perfect" Classic-era Princesses.

Sorry I didn't make my point of the last one clearer. A Sue, when confronted with the Beast's appearance, would likely be too pure or good to be scared - But Your Wings Are Beautiful would probably happen. Of course Belle is justified in recoiling - it's what a normal person would do. A Sue is not a normal person - s/he is an idealised character. And with the dinner, the film doesn't really show her as being 100% in the right. It doesn't take either person's side on it. It shows that the Beast is going the wrong way about getting Belle to dinner but also that she is being stubborn. The narrative doesn't always side with Belle and that's usually one of the key points of a Sue.

Looking back, I'm starting to agree with snowviolet that I was taking this too seriously. I'm rewatching the movie and while I still think she's a Purity Sue rather than a Mary Sue, Belle did make some foolish decisions. Like backsassing the beast when he tried to ask her for dinner (to be fair, it's not like the Beast was behaving better), and going to the West Wing when he specifically told her not to go there.