Discussion VideoGame / Hades

While I see your point, you could argue that the way the story is build up, the player is led to believe that after passing Cerberus they've successfully escaped the underworld, especially with the gates opening and light flooding in. Zagreus himself is quite surprised the first time he sees Hades, and his appearance at the end isn't forshadowed by anyone (the first time). So storywise it could be considered a spoiler for new players.

You're led to believe that for what, less than 30 seconds? It's quite a minor spoiler if at all.

I was much more surprised when Asterius returned at the end of Elysium, but that's not considered a spoiler.

Also, Characters.Hades Hades has a bunch of Self Fulfilling Spoilers in its trope list anyway. When tropes like Final Boss and a bunch of attacks are listed on the page, it doesn't matter that it's spoiler-tagged, you can already tell that you fight him at the end just from the trope names.

Yeah, it's such a comically minor thing to consider a spoiler especially since this is a Roguelite and technically fighting Hades is, even if you're the best at the game in the universe and every run is cleared to get the actual ending, 1/10 of the game.

Hades is the Final Boss, but the thing is, reaching the Final Boss is basically the start of the game.

For what it's worth, the Hades Discord considers the status of Hades as the final boss a spoiler.

That is, the official Supergiant Games-run one, for anyone who's wondering why we should care what some Discord server does.

Bit over-the-top, but yes. Thanks for clarifying.

I don't understand how anyone could consider it a spoiler. Who else could the final boss possibly be? Did anyone seriously think that there would be no boss fight at the end of the Temple of Styx?

Our standards for what counts as a spoiler doesn't have to match other communities'.

I also brought this up in this forum thread, where others agree that it's not really a big spoiler.

''I don't understand how anyone could consider it a spoiler. Who else could the final boss possibly be? Did anyone seriously think that there would be no boss fight at the end of the Temple of Styx?

Our standards for what counts as a spoiler doesn't have to match other communities'.''

First, cool down a little, I don't feel that strongly about it and I'm fine with it being removed. If anything, the real spoiler is what happens afterwards.

That said: "Our standards for what counts as a spoiler doesn't have to match other communities"

Vice versa applies, and I've seen people there express surprise the Final Boss wasn't someone else (that sounds obvious in hindsight, but there are plenty of Roguelikes and RPGs where a pivotal character isn't actually fought).

All that said, and I stress this again, I'm okay with it being removed.

Agreeing with the above. Yes, at this point it is more or less common knowledge, and if it bothers you this much, by all means go ahead and remove it. Maybe add a spoiler-warning where it's needed like Hades' character page, since apparently there really are people who were surprised about the Final Boss.

Since it seems nobody minds, I'm going to strip the spoiler font about Hades being the boss at the end of a run. I find this dancing around with the Self-Fulfilling Spoiler and numerous instances of "the Final Boss" rather patronizing, since the purpose of the markup is to protect readers.

Seeing how that we have a Do Not Spoil This Ending entry on this very page, I kind of do mind. It strikes me as rather rude to openly disrespect the wishes of the game's creators.

We under no obligation to obey them, and a spoiler warning header atop the page would serve the same purpose in not spoiling fresh readers.

No, we don't have an obligation to not be douchey, but I'm still going to advocate against douchiness. I don't even see any particularly compelling gain from unspoilering the subject other than "I personally think it's obvious so spoiler tagging it annoys me, and I want to not be annoyed."

And I say Hades and Persephone's relationship was explicitly not loveless, and that context matters — Immortal Life Is Cheap, after all, and their relationship when rekindled has obvious BDSM themes (you never answered me on whether you think BDSM is abuse, by the way!)

But since we couldn't resolve this in D Ms, I'd like to know if anyone else has two cents to offer?

Neither Meg nor Zag can die, they both straight up enjoy their fights. There is nothing toxic about the consensual nature of their relationship. The fact you say "Zegreus repeatedly..." while ignoring Meg's willing involvement and enjoyment is very telling.

The mutual consent is the most important part.

Zagreus can't convince Persephone to return until he proves to both himself and her that Hades loves her, in the present tense. His eventual goal is to understand and heal his family, no matter how hard it might be.

If anything on the surface level is where the toxicity is. If you look beyond that, Hades is an incredibly sweet and wholesome game and neither the seperation of Hades and Persephone nor the BDSM nature of Zag and Meg's relationship changes that.

Calling the relationship between Persephone and Hades "Loveless" isn't just a reach, it's barely one step removed from being blatantly wrong. There's nothing in the game that supports the read that the relationship was loveless, and the game in fact makes quite the point that while they may not been the perfect couple, they did loved each other. Persephone is also shown explicitly happy to be back in the underground.

As for Zag and Meg, this feels like trying to portray Zagreus as some kind of abusive, violent boyfriend/husband, which seems to be entirely disregarding that : A) Zag fighting megara isn't an abusive boyfriend hitting his defenseless girlfriend, it's a escaped prisoner fighting a capable jailer that has refused peaceful outcomes, B)Their rekindled relationship is clearly consenting BDSM, which isn't abuse per se, C)by the time they rekindle their relationship, it might very well be their job to bludgeon each other, jobs they both engaged of their own will as responsible adults, and D) The game is very aware about the fact Greek mythos suffers from a lot of Values Dissonance from today's standard (Elysium being for the Great, not for the Good, being a simple example) and doesn't try to whitewash it, so there's a precedent for the game depicting something despite not condoning it wholesale.

Unless sufficient elements can be brought up that the game is making a geniune case that people should take example wholesale on meg and zag and not just understand that they're fine as products of circumstances that are so far removed from reality they don't hold any kind of applicability beyond the broad themes (reconciliation exists and may be worth it, consensual BDSM is okay, and interacting with people in general is worth it), I'm not buying the idea the toxicity claim holds any ground.

I am also going to disagree on the “potentially loveless” relationship aspect between Persephone and Hades. They loved one another to have a son (or at least try), Hades is audibly furious at the topic of Persephone being given to him as a prize/gift by Zeus, and Hades worked incredibly hard to ensure that Persephone wasn’t found so the gods wouldn’t realize she was there. He respects her wishes and talks gently with her when she returns to the underworld, even talking better with Zagreus at her prompting, and that’s not getting into the picture at his bedside. If nothing else Persephone and Hades have respect for one another and love in a platonic sense.

Also, yeah, context is very key regarding Zagreus and Meg. Both are immortal, and both are very able and willing to be doing the striking, and pulling punches against either of them would be seen as an insult. When death has little meaning beyond emerging from a pool, the two enjoying pain and them having a bdsm relationship they are both into, it’s going to make comparisons to mortal relationships weird. Ergo, context.

I'd have to agree with the replies above. The game's main message about family is that even if you aren't perfect (which the Greek pantheon certainly isn't, even in this game), you can't simply run from your problems and you need to put in work to solve them. I get that some people might take issue with Persephone still not telling the Olympians the whole truth about her and Hades' relationship, but at that point it's pretty strongly implied that the Olympians are aware she's not telling them everything and they just want to move on now that they know her whereabouts.

And yeah, that interpretation of Zagreus and Megaera's relationship is just plain wrong since it leaves out the full context of their relationship. You don't have to like how their relationship plays out in the game, but it's absolutely not abusive when you take into account that they're immortal and they both clearly consent to what they're doing.

Yeah, Persephone and Hades are anything but loveless. She only left in the first place because stillbirth of Zagreus shocked and traumatized her - and that was not Hades' fault. After Zag's revival, Hades also had a lot of concerns against Olympians on his plate, keeping secrets on Zag's and Persphone's own behalf, while Persephone has specifically chosen a place hidden from all gods so as Olympus wouldn't bother her. Overall, their relationship has been shaken, but there still is a foundation of actual love.

Zagreus and Meg treat the mutual murder with as much annoyance as somebody having a higher video game score even before their relationship is restarted. It absolutely cannot be viewed through the lens of normal people violence.

What's this even about? This discussion seems like it should be on the YMMV at best.

(checks history)

Oh, a blatant misuse of Broken Aesop. Even if the entry was factually correct (it isn't, as pointed out above) it's a misuse of Broken Aesop (where the aesop of a work is undermined by itself). This is really just an unsourced Unfortunate Implications entry shoehorned into another trope.

Alright. I'm recutting due to overwhelming consensus.

Perhaps I misunderstood, misread, misremembered, or just plain missed some important things.