Useful Notes Israel Discussion

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01:43:26 PM Jul 7th 2012
A wonderfully unbiaised and even handed account! So rare in discussons concerning the Middle-East.....
10:48:17 AM Sep 1st 2012
edited by proudeagle
I can't believe you're calling this zionist propaganda garbage an 'unbiased and even handed account'. Are you by any chance the author of the piece? What nonsense.
11:41:10 AM Dec 5th 2012
This is a wiki, maybe the version he read was unbiased. Actually unbiased and even handed was my own opinion, until almost the end when two paragraphs lauding Israel, demonising the Palestinians, and claiming that continued occupation and supression of the Palestinians was justified to prevent terrorism. Almost brilliant, but I guess someone felt the need to way in on Israel's side.

03:24:43 PM Dec 8th 2012
edited by eedwardgrey3
Parts that in my opinion need to be cut and/or drastically rewritten:

This fear had only been compounded by the growth of the Zionist movement and the threat Arab nationalists perceived this to be to their power, and finally exploded into outright rage when large numbers of Jews arrived in the areas in the 1920s. While beforehand there had been many Palestinian Arabs who desired peace and partnership with the Zionist movement, which was reciprocated by the Zionists. However, as nationalist passions flared, the voices of moderation were drowned out, and a violently antisemitic Palestinian nationalist movement flared up, headed by one Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, an obsessively antisemitic Palestinian Leader who viewed the Jewish immigrants as invaders aiming to drive Islam from the area.

Makes everybody who had an issue with a Jewish state in Palestine look like a crazy extremist.

Note that while many of these people's actions were extremist, their objections to having to give a up large portion of their own future state were legitimare.

The day that Israel declared independence, it was invaded by the armies of the seven Arab nations; those armies were roughly equal to the Israeli population.

According to the The Other Wiki Israel outnumbered the Arab armies in the 1948 war by a fair margin (115.000 to 70.000 men). Israel was only outnumbered when you include Arab troops not deployed against them.

Some of the main complaints many have against Israel lie in its continued occupation of what is considered Palestinian land since 1967 and the subsequent settlement on this land coupled with alleged abuses on Palestinian civilians causing significant Anti Israeli sentiment outside the Middle East, with many calling it a Racist and/or Apartheid state due to this abuse, and the circumstances of its founding (despite the fact this was actually how many states in the area were founded during the same time period due to multiple empires leaving and partitioning former territories) and calling Palestinian terrorists "freedom fighters" which has a heap of Unfortunate Implications given the often genocidal objectives of many such organisations. This has been compounded by a large number of UN General Assembly and Security Council resolutions supporting these points and decrying Israel's actions. However, the fact Israel is a liberal democracy with one of the best human rights records in the region compared to its far more theocratic and human rights-deficient neighbors (with issues such as gay and female rights being particularly noteworthy), as well as Palestinian terrorism and attacks on civilians giving some justification to Israel's occupation of Palestinian land (given nations like Iran actively fund and arm terrorist movements there, Israel pulling out would result in a massively anti-Israel state forming on its doorstep, which could then pose a significant threat to Israel's existence should a nation like Iran continue pouring in money and arms as they have promised) has guaranteed an equal support of Israel.

Needs a drastic rewrite. Bascially an apologetic for Israel's more controversial actions.

Again, while Palestinian attacks against random civilians are deplorable, the part about the Israeli occupation is basically reversing cause and effect.

Calling yourself a pinnacle of democracy and human rights in a region like the Middle East veers into Overly Narrow Superlative.

Referring to "alleged abuses" when many human rights groups (including international and Israeli groups) have reliably documented them is probably also not a good idea.
02:27:34 AM Dec 11th 2012
Fixed some anti Palestinian bias. Got rid of alleged in the well documented human rights abuses on the Palestinian people and made a references to the fact Israel also kills many Palestinian civilians.
04:52:03 AM Dec 13th 2012
edited by proudeagle
The page is still highly problematic, but I'll take a better look at it later. We need to contextualize European Jewish settlement, and clearly mention that Hitler wasn't Palestinian...
02:58:05 PM Dec 24th 2012
Be careful. "Fixing" the anti-Palestinian bias might seem like introducing anti-Israel bias.
07:52:50 AM Dec 25th 2012
I don't know, it still seems very pro-zionist to me. I guess we'll have to discuss further edits. I don't want to start an edit war or anything.
05:31:37 AM Jan 6th 2013
Fixed the "cultural posturing" para. It needed referencing to the discussion above, so I did that. The page still need more work and love, though.
01:27:34 PM Jan 10th 2013
edited by eedwardgrey3
On the other side, there's the race angle, where people who criticize Israel are called anti-Semitic. Several feel that the decrying of antisemitism over criticism of Israel borders on paranoia or nationalism. For instance, the fact that Israel is still falsely claimed to be a liberal democracy, despite the fact that it committed clear violations of international and humanitarian law, beginning with the massacres and forced expulsion of the Palestinians in 1947, continuing with the settlement, occupation, and humiliation that Israel puts upon the Palestinians, including the wall that was built on Palestinian lands that remained to them after the 1967 war, more recently. Also, Zionist propaganda mythologizes Palestine as being 'the land of the Jews for 4000 years' as was spoken by the Israeli Ambassador to the UN recently, some roads in Israel are 'Jews Only'...what a liberal democracy! Israelis had and still kill countless more Palestinian civilians than Palestinians had killed Israeli civilians. Nevertheless, some see it as the bastion of civilization in the Middle East (mostly Zionists and friends)...which comes with its own heap of Unfortunate Implications.

OK afraid something like this might happen.

Israel was until very recently indeed the only country in the region that could be called a liberal democracy.

For a good comparison look at pre-war UK, which was a liberal democracy in its home islands but not in the way it controlled its overseas colonies. Much the same could be said for Israel and the Palestinian territories.

If nobody minds Im going to rewrite this in to something less inflammatory and hope this article doesn't need to be locked.

Edit: just axed the entire part; it was basically a rant and didn't add a whole bunch of information.
02:53:26 PM Jan 11th 2013
OK, you went ahead and deleted the paragraph. That's very nice of you to call it a rant. The paragraph explains the building of the Israeli Wall, expulsion of Palestinians, and crimes against humanity committed against Palestinian civilians. Did "pre-war UK" have White Only roads? You do realize that roughly a million Arabs still remain in the territories that Zionists invaded and occupied since 1948? Kindly explain why the paragraph is not helpful.
11:47:46 AM Jan 12th 2013
edited by eedwardgrey3
Pre-war UK had this.

The expulsion of the Palestinians are dealt with in the previous paragrahp on the 1967 war. Much of the rest is dealt with in the page on the Arab–Israeli Conflict which is why I don't think it adds much information.

Much of the rest is basically just criticism of Israel. If you want to discuss this subject take it to the forums, don't put it on the main page.

Edit: also removed these parts which are probably too slanted towards the Zionist point of view, and in general rewrote the parts on history to be more balanced:

This bitterness was compounded by an incoherent and incompetent British response to the riots which was aimed more at appeasing the rioting Palestinians rather than protecting the Jews, which verged into Insane Troll Logic territory once they obeyed the Palestinian Authority's demands to disarm the Jews who had dared fight back. Insult was added to injury shortly afterwards when a British court blamed the Zionists for the riot by "inflaming local tensions". This apparent government collusion with local antisemites seemed all too similar to the Pogroms for many Jews there, and it was from this event that the first seeds of conflict between the Jews, the Palestinians, and the British emerged.

Thus Britain started clamping down on Jewish immigration to the area, as well as pandering to the Palestinian nationalists, including the stunningly stupid move of pardoning, and promoting to the post of Grand Mufti Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, with the vague aim of controlling the nationalist movement, which only further inflamed Jewish discontent and anger with the British administration. This blew up utterly in the faces of the British administration, as he not only continued his antisemitic warmongering, but redoubled them in ways disturbingly similar to what would happen in Germany a year later as antisemitic pamphlets and propaganda spread through the nationalist movement, which became ever more extreme in rejecting British attempts to mediate the situation, and they caused even more violent riots in 1929, again with only token British response.

03:40:31 PM Jan 12th 2013
Somebody added a line about the fact that Jews were expelled from Arab and Muslim countries, which is definitely worthy of mention, but preferrably not in a way that suggests expelling Palestinians from their land was justified. Tried to rewrite it into something less flame-baity and changed a line about the 1948 war that had some jingoistic overtones.
08:26:21 PM Jan 12th 2013
Palestinians were in fact expelled from the area by Zionist forces in Plan Dalet, details of which were discussed by Zionist leaders at the time, including Ben Gurion, and was mentioned by several Israeli scholars including Ilan Pappe. So I fixed that part, instead on engaging in natter in the main page.
02:06:32 PM Jan 27th 2013
edited by eedwardgrey3
To prevent edit warring I've for the moment removed the reference to Ilan Pappé. Not sure if he's "controversial" , but preferably such a statement shouldn't rely on a single source. Instead I've linked both the Palestinian and Jewish refugee issues to The Other Wiki; neither page seems to have neutrality issues right now.

I'd like appeal to everybody to leave it like this until we can sort issues out.

Als cut for the moment:

"The amount of land and money stolen from them was much more than the amount the Palestinians lost."

Pretty much asking for trouble.

"People cite Hamas and Likud (the pro-war political parties), along with the military industrial complex, as major reasons for the continuation of the conflict. "

Basically natter, especially since it not clear which people.

Edit: with regards to the Palestinian refugee problem possibly worth mentioning since it's a direct source:

A document produced by the Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 – 1/6/1948" was dated 30 June 1948 and became widely known around 1985.

The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance:

'' Direct, hostile Jewish [ Haganah/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements. The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements... ( especially the fall of large neighbouring centers). Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [ Irgun Tzvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael] Orders and decrees by Arab institutions and gangs [irregulars]. Jewish whispering operations [psychological warfare], aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants. Ultimate expulsion orders [by Jewish forces] Fear of Jewish [retaliatory] response [following] major Arab attack on Jews. The appearance of gangs [irregular Arab forces] and non-local fighters in the vicinity of a village. Fear of Arab invasion and its consequences [mainly near the borders]. Isolated Arab villages in purely [predominantly] Jewish areas. Various local factors and general fear of the future.[6] ''

04:36:20 AM Aug 4th 2014
edited by
Point taken on more recent changes introducing, shall we say, a more favourable interpretation of the Israeli state's actions.

I would counsel - and urgently - that this article be vigorously policed by mods and others seeking to maintain cautious editing judgment and even-handedness. My experience on other talk-boards and discussion forums regarding Israel/Palestine is not good. Even a respected newspaper like the Guardian is allowing itself to be cowed by pro-Israeli lobbies and its comments pages on the topic are an absolute nightmare. To be honest, what I perceive is pro-Israeli partisan lobbies viewing web forums and discussion pages as an extension of the propaganda war. The Guardian is not the only site being bombed by the Israeli lobby, but it's certainly most blatant here. To be honest I've been commenting on its news and opinion articles for a long time now and I've never seen anything like it. Critical comment is being reported to the moderators who seem to be under instructions to take down anything critical of Israel's actions, and both the Israeli lobby and the more rabidly right-wing Americans (politically and religiously) appear to be out in vast numbers skewing the comments in support and baying for Palestinian blood. I've had comments pulled where I've called out pro-Israelis on blatant misrepresentations and outright inaccuracies. I don't know if it's co-ordinated - certainly concerted - I'm concerned articles like this could also be under threat. Let's keep watch....
05:24:12 AM Aug 4th 2014
If this is going to be a constant source of trouble for the mods, might it simply be easiest to lock it and run edits through the edit requests page?
07:20:07 AM Aug 4th 2014
True, true.
09:07:00 AM Aug 4th 2014
edited by
Just discovered this. so i'm not being paranoid after all....

Quote: “The whole point of such efforts is to look like they are unofficial, just everyday people chatting online,” Dena Shunra, a Hebrew-English translator, told The Electronic Intifada, an online news site.
09:11:00 AM Aug 4th 2014
I agree, although I would suggest to not play Speak of the Devil either. In other words, unless there is a problem with the article right now we can leave it as such.
04:54:59 AM Nov 20th 2014
Because insinuating that everyone who supports Israel online, Ag, is a paid shill for Israel and sourcing from a website called "Electronic Intifada" isn't suspicious at all...
04:31:43 AM Dec 12th 2014
Ah, you know you're on the right lines when you get not so much flamed as perhaps gently toasted by both'' sides...

I'm not saying all pro-Israeli commentators on any board are part of some sort of conspiracy to skew the debate. That would be inaccurate and insulting. But enough evidence exists to indicate this happens, and is happening systematically. Hell, there's evidence that pro-Palestinian groups are at it too!

now that comes from a pro-Israeli source and it's up to you as to how much credence you give it. But the point is that this sort of manipulation is getting more and more common - there's interesting stuff out there by others. Beware misinformation, though, by both sides!
04:59:17 AM Dec 12th 2014
Do the TVT grown-ups have any actual reason to believe that Israeli or Palestinian paid shills are editing pages related to the conflict to try and skew our articles on it?
05:17:47 AM Dec 12th 2014
Not that we are aware of right now.
05:23:59 AM Dec 12th 2014
edited by
Then why the hysteria? Thanks for the response Sep.
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