Discussion Monster / MetalGear

They also referred to humanity as pawns a few times (including an optional call at the start of the second phase of the Solidus battle). Regardless of how advanced an AI is, there is absolutely no way they would refer to humanity as pawns if they didn't have a degree of sentiency, especially seeing how they are themselves technically ruled by a "pawn." That's more like something that Deus ex Machina or The Architect would say, and its certain that those guys were at the very least sentient if not possessing free will, its pretty certain that they actually chose to do so.

Did it? It could be I'm not thinking it through enough with all the mindfuck that was the ending of MGS 2, which was filled with things not being what they appeared to on the surface.

I'm basing my opinion off MGS 4, where they are discribed as being machines capable of only repeating the same actions over and over again. They could refer to humanity as pawns, if that's how they were programed to see them. Anyway, it (for me) boils down to free will; if the Patriots didn't have free will, they can't be complete monsters, as their acts boil down to a sudden computer glitch.

Okay, you might have to actually look at some of the dialogue. This one of them, this one stated by the AI itself, appearing in an auxillary Codec call shortly after Solidus ejects his snake arms:

Colonel: Raiden, you have to beat [Solidus Snake]! This is your last duty! Raiden: We're not just pawns in some simulation game, you know! Rose: Yes, you are. You're nothing but mere weapons. No different from fighter jets or tanks. Raiden: What the — Colonel: The old model destroyed four years ago was "REX"... Rose: The new amphibious model is "RAY"... Colonel: Both of these are the same as the code names used by the U.S. Armed Forces to refer to Japanese war planes during World War II. Rose: Your code name "Raiden" too, comes from the Japanese navy's name for one of its interceptors... Raiden: Stop it! I'm not a weapon!! Colonel: Oh really? Do you know the code name the U.S. Armed Forces used for the Japanese fighter "Raiden"? Rose: It was "Jack". Colonel: Both of you are just weapons to be used and thrown away. Rose: Just weapons to be used on the battlefield. Just pawns in a game — exactly as you said. Colonel: And a weapon has no right to think for itself! Now, it's time to fulfill your purpose! Defeat [Solidus Snake]!

There are also a few others, such as Olga stating when explaining her forced allegiance to the Patriots that they only viewed them as pawns. Heck, the AI even stated that the S3 Plan's true purpose was to craft memories and perceptions for humanity to essentially control them, to which they used Raiden as their model for humanity, and it is also implied that they even deceived Ocelot, one of their best agents, specifically because they viewed even him as an expendable pawn.

You can try reading the script, at least you won't experience Mind Rape when reading it. I usually try to look into the series as a whole when deciding their actions. Yes, Metal Gear Solid 4 does imply a glitch, but taking into account the entire series would imply that they replaced his will more.

I went through the endgame again, and I looked through the first conversation the A.I.s have with you, and I think they don't count still; they're Well-Intentioned Extremist s. Their whole intentions was to stop humanity from drowning itself in information. Is it wrong? Yes, but that's because they're not human, so trying to apply a human morality to something that's not human is folly.

While on the topic, I'd like to suggest that Hot Coldman be removed too; he's a bastard, but his actions in Peace Walker was for the right intentions; he thought that in the event of a nuclear launch, the other side wouldn't have what it took to retaliate, thus breaking MAD. It was crazy, but I think it makes him fall under the catagory of Well-Intentioned Extremist. He was ultimately thought what he was doing was saving the world by making MAD a certainty.

Anyway, food for thought.

For the Patriots, their intentions were probably fabricated to paint themselves in a false light of benevolence, but the codec conversation they gave to Raiden midway through the Solidus fight seems to highlight their true nature. If they genuinely believed that they wanted to stop humanity from drowning in information, they wouldn't refer to humanity as pawns to be used and tossed away or make the comparison of them to some sort of simulation game. Heck, even Kojima stated that he created the Patriots specifically because he didn't want to cast Solidus as an absolute villain, so you can tell his motivations for creating the Patriots in the first place. They might count as Knight Templar s, sure, but not Well-Intentioned Extremist s.

And as for Coldman, seeing how he's the same guy who basically manipulated Volgin into launching a Davy Crockett at the Sokolov Design Bureau, knowing full well that this would cause a nuclear war, simply to get The Boss killed, an action that, going by why he's in Costa Rica, the CIA themselves also had some disagreement with, I sincerely doubt that was even his intention, nor that he fit the trope. Heck, even in the game itself, its implied that he didn't really care if they launched nukes at each other or not. For starters, his final actions were causing a near-catastrophe via Peace Walker both leaking data to NORAD and launching a nuke at Cuba via false trajectory data uploaded onto Peace Walker, and it is strongly implied in that scene that even his own followers did not know about it leaking NORAD the false data, and his reaction when uttering his final words was basically saying that the world can blow itself up in a nuclear war for all he cares. Oh, and it is also strongly implied that he planned this from the start, and was not a modification that he made as a result of Zadornov's betrayal in changing Cuba, as there wouldn't have been enough time to make the modification of adding the transmission code to NORAD between Zadornov's betrayal and his activating Peace Walker, especially with his wounded status. Did I mention that it was strongly implied that the reason he intended to launch a live nuke from Peace Walker was to essentially force the CIA into giving him back his job? It's also strongly implied that he either raped Paz or did something to traumatize Paz (and whether Paz's peace loving girl was an act or not, her being tortured certainly wasn't, seeing how she possessed the scars, and Coldman also remembers the scars). Besides, trying to label Coldman as a Well-Intentioned Extremist is like labelling Dr. Weil as a Well-Intentioned Extremist as well, and we know that Weil was a Complete Monster as well.

I'd stick with Knight Templars, it's hard to classify the Patriots since we're trying to impose some humanity on something that was never human. They label Raiden as a pawn, but that was him specifically, I don't recall them as viewing humanity as a whole as pawns. They certainly don't think humans deserve freedom while giving "The Reason You Suck Speach" to Raiden, but I just don't think they really have the capacity to be CM's, since all of their acts were for some form of greater good for humanity's ultimate benifit (what do the Patriots really get out of it for themselves? They're in control, but that just seems like a means to an end for them, not the end itseslf).

As for the comparison to Soidus, I thin there is a difference beteen an absolute villian and a Complete Monster. With Solidus he was a villian, but he had a relatable reason for his actions, like the overwelming majority of Metal Gear villians. The Patriots are an absolute villian because their goals are countrary to so many of or values, and because ultimately they're mistaken, but that doesn't automatically make them CM's.

And as for Coldman, he's a bastard there is no denying that. I wasn't sure if the CIA disagreed with killing the Boss, his comment when you actually meet him indicates he's been sent to Costa Rica because he knows too much (or something to that effect). From what he says to you it seems his motivated by his belief that humans lack the ability to risk wiping out humanity, which makes MAD a broken policy. Sure he was doing it for completey selfish reasons (which probably disqualifies him from a Well-Intentioned Extremist catagory), but he does seem to honestly believe what he's doing is for the betterment of the United States. Sure the false data to NORAD was a dick move, but it was all for the goal of proving that humans couldn't make the decision itself, and thus that the US needed something like Peace Walker. I'd sum it up as Evil Cannot Comprehend Good; Coldman just can not understand how normal people work. As for him and Paz...no real clue there; the audio tapes reveals that there was a lot more going on than meets the eyes, including what really happened between Pacifca Ocean (her peace loving girl was an act considering her first audio diary) and Coldman and how CIPHER was involved.

Personally I think that one of the best parts of the Metal Gear series is that there are very few black-and-white villians, which is what made Volgin stand out the more because he didn't have any sort of noble goals or tragic backstory; he just loved hurting people.

But I think we've hit an impass, so do you want to take this to the cleanup page and get a lot more input? This is probably one of the more complex examples we have listed, so it'd be good to have the people trying to clean up all the subpages have a good example or two to really hammer out what it means to be a CM.

Regarding the Patriots, it wasn't just Raiden they were referring to as pawns. Ocelot essentially said something to the effect that they viewed President Johnson, the Dead Cell members, and even Solidus as pawns, and Olga also effectively said that they only viewed them as pawns. Also, they attempted to put Sunny, Rose, and her unborn child in mortal danger to force Raiden into doing so, and the way they were talking made it seem like they enjoyed the whole setup.

I'll get to Coldman, but I have to get to dinner right now.

Okay, Got back from dinner. Anyways, regarding Coldman, the specific words were that "It's what the CIA does best, either ensure that those in the know kept their mouths shut, or else pack them off someplace where there's no one to listen to." This would imply strongly that it wasn't simply that Coldman knew too much, but more that he wasn't willing to keep quiet about the true reason for killing The Boss (and I doubt it was just EVA's debriefing, since Snake implies in the game that it was itself a coverup orchestrated by the CIA). Also, considering his implied involvement in getting Volgin to nuke the Sokolov Design Bureau, I somehow doubt even he actually believes in that statement. Besides, his dying words and actions also strongly implied that he didn't truly care one way or another about whether they would actually press the button or not.

And I know Pacifica was faking the Peace Lover act, but I somehow doubt that her... ahem... "experiences" at the hands of the Peace Sentinels and Hot Coldman in the Puerto del Alba supply depot were faked, given the fact that Coldman explicitly mentioned her escape with implied anger at himself for failing to kill her beforehand, not to mention the arm briefly flashing to reveal the scars with Coldman apparently recognizing them when Zadornov seemingly has Paz have him at gunpoint. No reason for him to not recognize the scarring if they was fake all along, after all.

One last thing, just because something wasn't human to begin with doesn't mean something isn't any less qualified to be a Complete Monster. Heck, Brainiac from Super Man was definitely labelled as a Complete Monster (at the very least in the animated series) and he's nothing more than a machine. Also, Warhok and his race from Kim Possible qualified as such, even though they themselves weren't even human anyways (space aliens, remember?). Erik the Synthrodrone from the same series also qualified even though he, like Braniac, was nothing more than a machine. Let's also not forget Cell, since, fully organic or not, he was still qualified as an Android, and thus is technically a machine. In regards to Android 18 and 17, their future selves mentioned that the reason they were committing destructive behavior against the Earth is because Dr. Gero, having wanted to dominate the world, programmed them to hate humanity, which implies that they had an absolute absence of free will, yet they still qualified as such despite that.

With that last bit, my point was trying to put a human morality on a non-human being is wrong, you have to judge them based on the standards of their origin ie the truly henious part. So for instance a slaver character can't have that count against him if he's from a society that practices slavery and sees no problem with it, unless his actions go beyond what his society considers normal.

To be a Complete Monster you have to objectively be able to chose to be a monster, which is my argument against the Patriots being included; are they doing all these evil acts out of there own free will or are they merely following what they believe to be Zero's will? Do they honestly believe that what they're doing is for the good of humanity? Are they in fact, self-aware beings or are they essentially just programs, not different than the weapons they considered Raiden to be?

They referred to humanity as pawns, which was referred to more than once in Metal Gear Solid 2 Sons Of Liberty. That would imply some sort of objectivity and self-awareness on their part, and thus some sort of free will. Otherwise, they certainly would have no right to refer to humanity as such, seeing how Zero himself was, biologically speaking, a human being, and thus technically a pawn. A lot of the characters, even the bad ones, also had some disgust and anger towards the Patriots, either explicit or implied (Solidus, Raiden, Olga, Nastasha Romanenko, Richard Ames, Roy Campbell, Liquid Snake, President Johnson, and Snake himself as well). Heck, the machines/programs also referred to the humans in the Matrix as being "pawns", and it is especially evident that they were self-aware (they have a machine city, and it is strongly implied that they dislike humanity for the latter's persecution of them early in the war.). Basically, any machine that refers to humanity as pawns, despite humanity creating them in the first place, pretty much has free will.

.....yeah that is just Insane Troll Logic. Let me quote 32 Footsteps from the forum on the matter;

"Okay, after going through that loopy conversation about Metal Gear characters, here's my thoughts.

We technically left out one aspect of Complete Monster, most likely because we never saw a need for it. Basically, the character in question has to be perfectly willing to perform these actions. An artificial intelligence has to reach the point of being able to make acts of true volition in order to be able to perform an act that would qualify for this trope. So the question really is, are the AI characters in Metal Gear capable of willful actions?

The big problem here is that the game has screwed enough minds that it really is impossible to say. EJ 01 makes some absurdly specious arguments about whether or not an AI can call a person a pawn if it's truly capable of volition (I can make a chatbot call people pawns today; this does not make a chatbot a Complete Monster). That said, the flip side is that, between mind screws and flat out lies, we can't be sure if the information saying that they were incapable of such in the fourth game was true. For that matter, given some of the absurd super-science going on in the game (which they deliberately played up), it's quite reasonable from the series to conclude that it did develop volition and the people interacting with it simply didn't know.

So the shortest answer is, Kojima deliberately made it a giant mess that we can't adequately answer.

Since the idea that said AI constructs have true volition is at least plausible in the universe in question, I say that we hedge and say something along the lines of "If it turns out that artificial intelligence in this setting can act on its own volition..." in the description. We acknowledge the Mind Screw involved as well as not making a stand on it, while noting that such actions from a character with volition do count for this trope. Does that sound reasonable?

As for Coldman, I think he's a much easier case. It doesn't matter whether or not the character actually is right. If he thinks he is acting in the best interests of someone other than him, that's being a Well-Intentioned Extremist and disqualified for the trope. The bit about his not caring about whether the button is pressed is a non-issue - if he thinks that everything is already doomed regardless of whether the action is taken (given that he's dying and knows that he failed at what he tried to do, a reasonable assumption), then he really wouldn't care. So I think he's an easy removal."

His point about the chatbot is key; your arguement is that only a self-aware mind could call someone a pawn. 32 could make a chatbot that was programmed to belittle you and consider you beneath it, that doesn't mean it's self-aware. Same argument applies to the Patriot A.I.s. They were created by Zero to carry out his will, and he considered people to be pawns. Who is to say that Zero did not have the A.I.s programed to share his view on people? The Patriots share his vision of a world united, and they (in Metal Gear Solid 2 at least) share his methods in achieving his ends.

The bit about characters having disgust and anger towards the Patriots is irrelevant; half of them didn't even know the Patriots were AI (they were under the impression that they were the Wiseman's committe). And a person can express disgust and anger towards a hurricane, that doesn't change the fact that a hurricane isn't self-aware or even alive.

Finally, I must go to the end of Metal Gear Solid 4 and Big Boss' said on them; "In the end they're only a program. They can only repeat the same patterns over and over again." He, who suffered the most at the hands of the Patriot's system, didn't view them as sentient beings but rather just a program. You say that they have to be self-aware to call humans pawns? Zero programmed them to share his opinion on humans (evidenced by EVA saying he lost faith in humans and by the fact that he does use several people as pawns throughout the entire series) and that they were programmed to treat humans as pawns. Simple as that.

As for Coldman, again he does sincerely believe in what he's saying; that humans are incapable of ending the world, and thus MAD was broken and if the Soviets ever launched a nuclear strike Washington would not retaliate. His last word was "Peace" too. He seems to believe that all of his actions were for the good of the United States. Tropers are confusing "Utter Bastard" with "No redeeming qualities period, does evil things for the sake of evil things, has no reasonable justification or excuse, nor any sort of goal beyond their own selfish reasons." So while Coldman is a bastard and ultimately on the wrong side of grey, he does have a small glimmer of aultustic qualities in him, which is enough to Disqualify him.

So at the moment for the Patriots we have a 2-to-1 concensses in favour of them being on the list (with 32 wanting a line for the mind-screw factor), and a 2-to-1 concenses against Hot Coldman. I don't suppose you know anyone else who could chime in on this discussion? I feel like these two examples need more people to look them over.

So, did humanity program the Architect to claim that all of humanity was supposed to be pawns and enslave them in the Matrix? Going by what you and some people said, they did, even when it is explicitly stated that they possessed free will and revolted.

And anyways, it doesn't matter if Zero himself felt that humanity were pawns. Going by the fact that they had a complex method of analyzing human DNA (SOP as well as those ID tags in weapons), simply the fact that Zero biologically fitted the trope would mean they would have either renounced Zero's will, or otherwise revolted against Zero while believing Zero's belief that humanity was nothing more than a bunch of pawns. Think of how the Bebes from Kim Possible revolted against Dr. Drakken when the latter made the mistake that the Bebes were both perfect and that their purpose is to obey him despite his being imperfect. And going by his reaction when they made this revelation, its unlikely that he planned for the Bebes to revolt against him or possibly even to have free will.

Another thing, regarding Coldman, it was made very clear that his main reason for the test was not for reinforcing MAD, but to get his job back. And besides, one could argue the exact same thing about Dr. Weil, since he had similar motivations in his actions, and yet guess what? He still qualifies as a Complete Monster (in fact, the biggest Complete Monster in the Mega Man series) anyways. Heck, Huey and Snake even acknowledge him as nothing more than an irredeemable mass murderer, in-universe. And anyways, going by his final words, he pretty much refused to call off the launch of Peace Walker and the leaking of the NORAD data, and implied that he specifically did these actions because he knew full well that he was going to die, and he even may have planned for Zadornov to shoot him (changing the target to Cuba aside), seeing how there was far too little time to have Peace Walker's AI programmed to leak the false data to third parties between his getting shot and his activating Peace Walker. Had he truly believed that humanity didn't even possess the will to launch a strike, he would have also supplied the code just in case they actually did plan to go through with it in the possibility that he was wrong.

I'll also address those points to the forum as well.

EDIT: I should also point out something with this response:

"Finally, I must go to the end of Metal Gear Solid 4 and Big Boss' said on them; "In the end they're only a program. They can only repeat the same patterns over and over again." He, who suffered the most at the hands of the Patriot's system, didn't view them as sentient beings but rather just a program. You say that they have to be self-aware to call humans pawns? Zero programmed them to share his opinion on humans (evidenced by EVA saying he lost faith in humans and by the fact that he does use several people as pawns throughout the entire series) and that they were programmed to treat humans as pawns. Simple as that. "

Except Big Boss's statement was immediately contradicted by his stating that they overturned Zero's will and that even Zero did not plan for that possibility. Plus, his views of Humanity may have been shaken, but Big Boss also made it clear in the same sentence that even he would not have intended for the Patriots A.I.s to have also erased The Boss's will and views altogether. If they were only capable of repeating themselves as if they were a program, why would they overturn Zero's plans and craft their own plans? Even with the glitch theory, they'd be back at square one, not removing Zero's will altogether and crafting a will in their place.

The archtect was programmed decades after the creation of the first A.I.s by humans, and was created by machines.

The patriots were created directly by Zero, to carry out his will, and to inherret his beliefs and force them on the world.

Apples and oranges.

And you're not recalling the same conversation that we are; they didn't "overturn" his plans, rather they show a diagram of how th patriots operated, then show it suddenly veering off tothe side (the creation of the war economy). At no point does he say this was deliberate, the Boss' will had long been forgotten by both Zero and Big Boss (as stated by EVA that there was nothing left of the Boss' will left in their struggle, and Peace Walker shows this happened in the 70s, long before the creation of the AI).

Big Boss said it was a colosial error in judgement, one that Zero couldn't have anticipated. He didn't say that the Patriots removed the Boss' will, only that the world they created lacked Loyalty (what she valued most).

But at the same time it was technically following the word of Zero's will; to unite the world by controlling it from the shadows.In this case the Patriots concluded that war and the war economy was the best way to control it.

So you're ignoring things that are said and bringing comparisons to complete different situations (an AI programmed by other A.I.s decades after they created their own city vs an AI created by man to enforce man's wills), and the Insane Troll Logic idea that only a self-aware being could refer to others as pawns instead of it just being something that was programmed in; HK-47 refers to everyone as meatbags, but that is somethign that was specifically programmed into him (that he actual came up with the descriptor himself is irrelevant; Revan liked it so much he made it impossible for HK to not call organics meatbags).

Fine, for a better example, the Bebe Robots in Kim Possible. Drakken created the Bebe robots to serve him and carry out his will, and crafted them to be perfect. The Bebe Robots obviously turned on their master due to that contradiction, showcasing their free will (and going by Drakken's reaction, he certainly didn't intend for them to have free will).

He also said that they removed pretty much everything that The Boss valued, including loyalty. That would imply that at the very least, Big Boss retained that aspect prior to his second defeat, and given what he commented on the subject of Zero and what happened there pretty much implies that Zero might have retained that aspect of her will. And seeing how it was stated that Zero didn't foresee what happened, that implies that he didn't want that part to happen, which also likewise means that he didn't want the A.I.s to do something like that. If he wanted it to happen like that, obviously Kojima would not have had Big Boss say something like that about Zero.

And the mere fact that HK-47 actually came up with the term "Meatbags," as you yourself said, pretty much proves that he could think for himself. Otherwise, there would have been no way he could have done so without his master specificially programming him to say it.

And another thing, the fact that Raiden expressed disgust even WITH his knowing that they were at the very least not human thanks to their admission as such pretty much seals the deal that they are Complete Monsters.

And Coldman should be retained on the Complete Monster list. I already gave a full list on how he qualifies, and heck, Huey even acknowledged that he was an irredeemable mass-murderer in-universe, so it's already a given anyways. Heck, several of the villains were also shown to express disgust for Coldman's ideals, so he fits another part of the Complete Monster category. There were absolutely no altruistic or redeemable qualities to his character, either, so he has to be added back in.

Big Mama states that there was nothing let of the Boss' will in Zero and Big Boss' fight, they only cared about destroying the other. So before the Patriots even came about Loyalty no longer existed.

Nothing you said in the second part contradicts a glitch in the system; glitches are unpredictable events that change the sytem in some way. So again, you're reaching. Big Boss' speach and the image shows that the Patriots system was just a system of norms, and a freak occurance cause it to deviate wildly. Nobody wants glitche to happen, that doesn't mean that the computer is rebeling against you.

And again, after all of that he dismisses the Patriot A.I.s as only a program that repeats the same actions over and over again. So when the person whose dialogue you're citing ultimately disagrees with you, you're wrong.

Raiden's disgust is irrelevant; that is You Monster! not Complete Monster; it was even brought up in the cleanup thread that a character calling another a monster is irrelevant if their actions don't fit the trope.

For HK-47, you're missing the point. When he was originally created he just refered to organics as something else, and when Malak asked him what he thought of him HK was honest and told him that organis were just meatbags filld with water, and Revan found that and Malak's reaction so amusing he reprogramed HK-47 to always refer to organics as meat bags. But prior to that, HK only ever used the word once when he was directly asked, and his later instances was not him saying it because he wants to, it's because he literally has no choice in the matter.

Likewise, Zero viewed people as only pawns, he created three clones soley for the purpose of using them as pawns. Yet it's somehow impossible for the Patriots, the inheretors of Zero's will, to view humans as pawns just as Zero himself did?

And give it up on Coldman; he doesn't fit the trope, the cleanup thread voted to remove him for the one reason you conviently omit every time he comes up; that he believes MAD does not work and that the Soviets will use that "fact" to wipe out the United States. It doesn't matter that he's wrong, he honestly believes what he's doing i for the best interests of the United States.

It is impossible. Don't forget, they have an advanced method of determining species and DNA (SOP and ID tags), so it is unlikely that they would have followed Zero's will of humanity being pawns because, since his DNA is that of a human, they'd feel he was also a pawn. Even if they did accept his viewpoint, they'd overthrow Zero and continue it while also offing Zero so to speak simply because he was a human and thus they have no reason to follow a pawn (think how the BB droids in Kim Possible acted when Drakken made the mistake of both claiming that they were perfect and that their sole purpose was to obey him, or how Wesker essentially took Spencer's ideology and then promptly killed him specifically because he doesn't fit that ideology.). Heck, had I been someone who viewed humanity as pawns and thus tried to create A.I.s with powerful DNA-reading capabilities to control humanity by convincing them that they are nothing more than pawns, I would also fully anticipate the very possibility that the A.I.s will likewise either ignore my views because they can't conceive of following the will of someone whom DNA-wise is a "pawn," or else backstab me, either kill me or otherwise usurp command while leaving me brainwashed like the other people, and take over my views of humanity being pawns because they view me, due to my being a human being DNA-wise, being unfit for commanding them.

Also, a program that repeats itself, and thus does not have free will, does not have the capacity to actually order people around, manipulate events in their favor, or any of that. Is my PC capable of, say, brainwashing the UN to vote for a PMC war-based economy? No, it is not capable of doing so without a person to do such a thing, and the A.I.s also implied that they were fully aware of the Shadow Moses Incident, and most of the founders were dead by that point, including the one responsible for their creation, Donald Anderson. They also wouldn't have the capacity to actually order Drebin around while we're at it, since they aren't advanced automated A.I.s. They can't be automated A.I.s or automated if they can only repeat themselves. That part alone blows holes into Big Boss's statement about their only being capable of repeating themselves. Also, they were also planning according to Naomi to subject the civilian population with mind control, meaning they also had autonomy. Note that she said "they" as in the Patriot A.I.s, not Zero, but the A.I.s planned to do so.

Also, an AI as advanced as the Patriots A.I.s would most likely have a way to correct themselves if they stumbled upon a glitch in a system and retain their original programming. They aren't like P Cs.

On a related note, the fact that they actually mocked Raiden for his attempting to run away from his past in that speech only reinforces the fact that the Patriot A.I.s are of this trope, especially after the viral videos showing Raiden's past on the Rising website. had they not been complete monsters, they wouldn't have done such a thing. If anything, they would have been somewhat sympathetic. I mean, no person with even a shred of decency would blame Raiden for wanting to run away from his past after what we saw of it, yet not only did they did so, they mocked him. It's actually extremely sick, and goes far beyond Jerkass.

And as for Coldman, I don't buy it. If he truly believed that MAD does not work, and that the Soviets would use that fact to wipe out the United States, please explain why he made sure that Volgin would blow up the Sokolov Facility and thus nearly cause a Nuclear War just to off The Boss? Heck, he also implies that he didn't really care either way if MAD does work or not in his final speech before he died (which was likewise implied to be deliberate in order to ensure that he didn't leak the code). Also, his idea of perfect MAD was summed up as basically blowing up the planet. Honestly, did you see the final battle? He basically arranged for the nuclear launch false data to be leaked to NORAD upon Peace Walker's activation since at least before Zadornov backstabbed him.

And if we're going to claim that Coldman's not a complete monster simply because of that, then we might as well claim that Doctor Weil from Mega Man Zero is not a complete monster either, simply because he genuinely believed that taking away Reploids free will and punishing them would make the world a better place. See the problem?

Anyways, I informed a mod about it, ccoa, and he pretty much told me to take it back to the discussion. Besides, he's already acknowledged as one in-universe, so there's no other option but to add him back in. If it's acknowledged in-universe, then it doesn't matter what people want to state, as no one can refute in-universe citation. I can also assure you that there are other posters who believe that he is as well.

Regarding your final point there: Being acknowledged in-univers as a complete monster does not make a character a Complete Monster. What if there was someone who everyone perceived as horrible and cruel, but was really a Well-Intentioned Extremist? What if they did, oh, I dunno, charity work in their spare time but nobody knew? What if they died honourably, but before that they had been called a complete monster by other characters who didn't know this would happen? All of these things could disqualify someone from Complete Monster status.

Do you have any proof of that? Because they kept Zero alive even though, if they viewed him as a pawn, it would make more sense to kill him to stop anyone from discovering their secret. Stop bringing up other series to try and justify the Patriots being fully-self aware. Kim Possible was not made by Hideo Kiojima, The Matrix was not made by Konami, so they have zero relevance to the conversation.

Zero created the Patriot A.I.s specifically to replace him, because he had no faith in people anymore after Big Boss' betrayal. He viewed them as pawns, but not worthy of trusting. Sound like anyone you know?

So you've studied the Patriots coding line by line? You know exactly what actions they are capable of and not capable of? If the A.I.s are built for a purpose, they have everything they need to fullfil that purpose. Manipulating people? Zero programmed in every single manipulation method he knew of for them to draw upon. Hence them only being able to repeat the same actions; they're limited to what Zero programmed into them. That can be large enough to create the impression of sentience, but that doesn't make them sentient. Look up the complete Turing test and counter arguments and you'll see what I mean; you can trick someone into thinking that you're sentient, but that doesn't actually make you sentient.

And I'm guessing that you don't understand how programming actually works. Look at it this way; if suddenly your brain suffered a chemical imbalance and made you scizophrenic, would you know that this happened? No, because the glitch has altered your perceptions.

And them mocking Raiden, while a dick move, isn't a Complete Monster one. They illistrated the point that there were plenty of other children who shared the same relationship with Solidus, but the rest of them all lived with what had happened, Raiden was the only one who ran away from his problems. Sure you can understand why Jack did that, but from a programs perspective, if 99% of a group does one thing and 1% does another, it's the 1% that's wrong/faulty.

Back to Coldman, Portable Ops is of dubious canon status, and even if it was canon, it's only Gene's word that someone made sure that Volgin blew up the facility. Gene could have been wrong for all we know. It also raises the question of how Coldman manipulated Volgin into doing his dirty work despite never even meeting the guy, but couldn't see Zadornov stabing him in the back from a mile away. And did you miss the "Now we'll see if I was right" and "Pe...ace" in his final speach? He clearly did have some interest in wether or not his life's work was right or not. And you missed the point entirely of leaking false data; he did it while the President was away so NORAD would have to make the decision, entirely because he didn't think NORAD had the guts to destroy the world. He even made that clear in his speach that it was his entire motivation behind Peace Walker's test; to illistrate that MAD didn't work.

And you keep bringing him up but he doesn't fit; Weil is simply not comparable; their actions are in completely different legaues.

And as I keep saying; You Monster! is what you're describing, the Cleanup page already determined that it doesn't make that person a Complete Monster. But funny how none of these other posters who believe that he's a CM bothered to show up and throw in their two cents about it.

Let's see:

Both Weil and Coldman instigated a tragic and horrific incident that likewise resulted in their banishment due to implied disgust towards their actions. Both Weil and Coldman also essentially forced (or in the case of Coldman, attempted to force) their respective governments into getting their jobs back. Both also nearly destroyed the world the second time in such a way that nearly required a sacrifice on one of the character's parts to halt it. And both are also implied to have lived on via their spiritual successors (Weil to Model W/Model V, Coldman with the Patriots A.I.s, since it was implied from the similar names as well as his possibly being a skilled enough programmer to both program the Mammal Pod and/or the Reptile Pod with not only the NORAD command, but also the abort code that he programmed a bit of himself into them).

That's similar enough.

Another thing, Ocelot mentioned to the KGB chief director in the post-credit call in Snake Eater that they were planning to use their knowledge on the events of the missions as blackmail against the United States in future negotiations, and given EVA's debriefing earlier, it's unlikely they were simply referring to the official story of The Boss defecting (as she implied that they were going to basically let the public in both America and Russia, America in particular, believe that The Boss truly defected, and the only way they could do that is "expose" to the public that The Boss was a traitor and a war criminal), so the only possible reason they would blackmail them with the knowledge, especially after the President entrusted them to keep a lid on the events of the mission is if there was an information leak back in America. Then we get to the call with Ocelot and the CIA director where he tells him that the KGB bought their story as well. Given the fact that he already earlier suggested to the KGB director that they use the events to blackmail America in future negotiations, the only way he could have said that as well as that the KGB bought the CIA's story was if even EVA's debriefing may have been faked, something that was also implied in Peace Walker, as well. Plus, immediately before Zadornov's betrayal, he interacted with Zadornov in such a way that implied that they were familiar with each other, which implies that this wasn't the first time he did something like collaborating information with the Soviets and even possibly orchestrate allow them into the base (as the Soviet troops were clearly in Soviet uniform when Big Boss encountered Coldman at the communication tower).

Besides, I'm not too certain as to how much Zadornov's betrayal was actually Zadornov's own design and which was actually manipulated by Coldman. The only thing the game made clear was that the target change to Cuba was not originally planned by Coldman, since even Coldman admitted as much. The other parts seemed a bit too staged, and he also activated Peace Walker afterwards while laughing to himself, which, along with Zadornov's shock about Coldman's actions, would imply that he in fact orchestrated the events of Zadornov's betrayal and even his own death in order to ensure his own plan does not fail.

And if he truly maintained some interest in whether he was right or not, then obviously he should have supplied MSF with the abort code while he was dying, or at least have supplied it to Strangelove, just in case he was proven to be wrong about MAD after death, so that at the very least there would be a chance to undo his mistake. I certainly would have done that had I been in his shoes. He didn't, and he implied in his death throes that he was intending to die before he divulged the abort code. It's also unlikely that he had planned for The Boss to drown herself, either.

And regarding Portable Ops, the Metal Gear Sagas DVD timeline and credits, the Metal Gear Solid website's timeline, and even Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker referenced the events of that game, so that makes Portable Ops canon, no questions asked.

You just don't get it.

Coldman wasn't banished for getting MOST OF THE FUCKING WORLD KILLED, he was kicked out due to politics, in case you missed the fact that the entire CIA hated the Boss. There is no "implied" disgust. You can not seriously compare small-scale destruction to near-genocide. That's just stupid.

Err, what the fuck are you going on about now? The KGB was going to blackmail the US over the events of operation Snake Eater, since there were plenty of witnesses that a US agent destroy a lot of GRU property and killed GRU personel in Soviet Territory. Kruschev may have authorised it, but he's about to get placed under house arrest. Now you're taking Wild Mass Guessing and trying to use it as proof. Coldman manipulate Zadornov into betraying him? Considering that Coldman wants his job at Langley back that's unlikely since Zadornov, you know, SHOOTS HIM! Coldman laughed to himself because he was dying, you don't expect sane, rational acts from a man whose bleeding to death. Ditto for not giving the abort code; he wasn't going to let his life's work go uncompleted, so he activated Peace Walker with what time he had left.

You're taking speculation and trying to pass it off as fact, and you're terrible at comparisons since nothing you've compared on this entire page is accurate. I'm done with this.

Fine. I won't argue about Coldman being a CM anymore. I probably should have stopped, but I had the lingering feeling you'd at least see how he fit. Guess he didn't.

I will ask for one thing, however, and you can communicate it with me via PM. Why would the KGB want to blackmail the United States with the events of Operation Snake Eater if both the United States and Russia were planning to immediately reveal officially that The Boss was a traitor and a war criminal and that being the reason for The Boss being killed off to ensure that future generations reviled her, according to EVA's debriefing? Doesn't that defeat the entire purpose of Operation Snake Eater, to ensure that The Boss was reviled in history?

Offically reveal? The militaries and both governments at the time knew it, but it wasn't well known outside of those circles (hence why Snake has no clue who the Boss is when EVA mentions it in Metal Gear Solid 4, because he's never heard of her, something which is frankly impossible if it was offically revealed. EVA was partially being melodramatic, and meaning the future generations in the intelligence community.). The Boss wasn't killed off to ensure that future generations reviled her, the Boss was killed off because that's what Kruschev demanded for the US to prove their innocence, her tarnished legacy was just a side-effect of that.

And the Soviets weren't blackmailing the US with the knowledge of Snake Eater, they were using that knowledge to (In Ocelot's words) "grab them by the balls." The US fucked up, and the Soviets let them off rather lightly, and would use that fact to put pressure on them in future negotiations.

So your conclusion is wrong; the entire purpose of Operation Snake Eater was to kill Volgin, destroy the Shagohod, and kill the Boss to prove the US' innocence and stop world war 3. At no point did someone sit down and say "alright, let's do this to make the Boss look horrible to every future generation who happens to work exclusively in the Soviet or US intelligence agencies and special forces." It was all "We have one week to kill Volgin, the Boss and to destroy the Shagohod, and if we fail it's nuclear armageddon. Snap to it."

So could we please simplify how Coldman does not qualify for a complete monster when his estabilishing character moment is throwing a man in a wheelchair down a flight of stairs and he nearly caused nuclear armageddon to prove a point?

Hot Coldman from Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker? He isn't as bad as Volgin and is apparently a Well-Intentioned Extremist - see here for rationale.

Yeah, Coldman does genuinely believe that his actions will lead to peace. He's pretty nutter but his goal is to prevent global nuclear war (by scaring the people of the planet so much with a single nuclear strike).

Feel free to nominate them in [[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok this]] thread.

The verdict is no by the way, because GZ is just the prologue and he gets very little characterisation in it.

I would also dispute that he is the most heinous villain in the series. Volgin still eclipses him.