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ChrisX
topic
08:52:39 PM May 20th 2012
I just would like to know in the most polite way possible on why the Litchi entry had to be trimmed down with little emphasis, while other entries like Ragna, Makoto or even Tsubaki is allowed with lots of emphasis. This starts to look like a Double Standard and protection to the Fan Dumb that rose in the wake of the ends of CS, as if Litchi is not allowed to enjoy some emphasizing that other characters seem to enjoy.

I know I'm probably at fault for being caustic in a way against those haters, but please... let's hear your opinion. Hopefully, I can use this discussion to be a better editor. Thank you.
CerotechOmega
09:06:40 PM May 20th 2012
edited by CerotechOmega
I've been trying to talk Chris down via AIM, and the issue is still eating at him. I'm the one who advised putting this here, since ragnarok235 doesn't seem to be responding to Chris' PMs and both his and Austin's AIMs are unknown to me (if they exist), and I didn't want him to trigger a shitstorm by putting it in the general thread. If anyone's going to take the piss for this discussion, it better be me.

And for the record, I tend to give lengthy notes in regards to Makoto's activity, but I'm trying to explain why things work as they do - just as Chris tends to lose restraint when people downplay or insult characters he likes, I dive into research binges when characters I observe face Creator's Pet or Mary Sue accusations in an attempt to defuse them.

I would also like to offer my thanks in advance for any discussion in regards to the proper handling of Chris' inquiry.
ChrisX
09:17:12 PM May 20th 2012
edited by ChrisX
To add what Cerotech said, what I'm saying is that those lengthy stuffs I said about Litchi was very much 'explaining why things work' so it makes sense for Litchi as well. I'm doing my research, trying to keep a sound mind, but to be honest, this seemingly Double Standard that everyone can be emphasized while Litchi is only allowed little emphasis is just kinda bugging me.

I apologize if I went out of handle, but I really appreciate if all my explanations about Litchi are not just deleted like that. What went wrong with my explanation, really? What is wrong in putting emphasis on how the conceptions of "Litchi is on such low morality position because she joins NOL", "Litchi is not a good person because she's on Hazama's side!" and things like those... are just utterly wrong? (Unless as I said... the people who drew that conclusion are either short-sighted or ignorant) I thought with CMOH at least all those would be dispelled, but it's like someone wants that conception to stay forever and be marked as her true self...

Seriously, if you even BOTHER to research her character, then you'll see how wrong those conceptions are.
ragnarok235
09:02:31 AM May 21st 2012
Hey, I got your message, Chris.

I see the discussion topic is regarding the trimming down on Litchi's Heartwarming entries, which was done by me. To quickly and bluntly give the reason for my edit: much of what was written under Litchi's section was text relating to Litchi's morality after her Face-Heel Turn, and was defending her choice in the story. This text was written by you, Chris. While I agree somewhat with your viewpoint, it does not relate to heartwarming events in the story involving Litchi.

For example, this description: "The myopic Fan Dumb tend to forget that the NOL having utterly malicious management does not automatically make the organization and everyone else in it evil and you need to be not good at heart to even join. Litchi Faye Ling, one of the latest people to join its ranks, is proof of this - even the 'obsession' with Arakune, which Hazama used to draw her in and one of the numerous things that keep her from losing herself completely, does not stop her from sharing her heart with the people she treats and counsels."

Was changed to: "Litchi Faye-Ling may be working for the bad guys over at NOL now, but she is a kindly, motherly woman with a big heart. Case in point:"

Upon seeing this, Chris, you changed it to: "Litchi Faye-Ling may be working for the bad guys over at NOL now, but she is a kindly, motherly woman with a big heart (who is just unfortunately Forced Into Evil rather than going on willingly). Here are some of her actions that will melt your heart and know that those who consider her only selfish and blinded by obsession of Arakune because of that one decision are damn wrong and just plain ignorant:"

This section was altered again by another user, Austin, who left the justification: "Relax. This isn't the place for that". Again, calling people who do not agree with your viewpoint "Fan Dumb" is going too far.

Chris, let me make something clear, because I believe I speak for quite a few people on the BlazBlue boards and will not repeat myself:

STOP IT. SERIOUSLY. STOP IT.

'''LITCHI DOES NOT NEED TO BE DEFENDED CONSTANTLY. YOU DO NOT NEED TO DEFEND LITCHI'S FACE HEEL TURN EVERY TIME LITCHI IS MENTIONED. IF A PERSON ATTEMPTS TO PREVENT YOU FROM DEFENDING LITCHI LIKE THIS, IT IS NOT BECAUSE THEY HATE LITCHI: IT IS BECAUSE YOUR CONSTANT NEEDLESS WHITE-KNIGHTING OF LITCHI IS GRATING. I HAVE SEEN YOU BEFORE ON OTHER BOARDS DOING THIS, AND BEING CALLED OUT FOR IT.

YOUR CONSTANT NEED TO DEFEND LITCHI AND OBSESS ABOUT HER MORALITY AND STANDING IN THE FANBASE ANNOYS PEOPLE. IF YOU LIKE LITCHI SO MUCH, THAT'S GREAT, BUT IF THE REST OF THE FANDOM ONLY SEES LITCHI AS A PAIR OF TITS AND JUDGE HER FOR HER APPARENT IDIOCY, WHAT CAN YOU DO? IT'S JUST A SAD FACT OF LIFE.

Anyhow, I hope I made my case. Thanks.
ChrisX
09:40:27 AM May 21st 2012
edited by ChrisX
I'm ready to defend my stance. I'm sorry, but our opinions just clash and is in danger of Edit War at this rate.

Sure enough, trimming Litchi's section is fine. And so, I'm to stand by and see you overhype and give emphasis on whatever Makoto's entry is and I'm not even allowed to give emphasis on Litchi, even if it wasn't for White Knighting? What the hell? And you White-Knighted Makoto for what Relius did to her and consider him to be unforgivable in ridiculous levels for trying to prove his villain caliber? Isn't that just the same as me White Knighting Litchi? Please, Ragnarok, look at the mirror as well. It's okay to stop me from going out of line, but if in the same time, you just continue on with you overhyping whatever Makoto is (along with Ragna and Tao), it sounds like you REALLY have something against her. I'll also say that (sorry), if you find my constant White-Knighting on Litchi annoying... well I also find your constant overhyping on Makoto annoying as well. What? Why does she in particular needs constant, uninterrupted overhype? Why does this all look like you're forbidding me to even put things or emphasize about Litchi at all, let alone even White Knighting her, while you go on merrily on overhyping Makoto? Lengthy description on Makoto is okay while lengthy description of Litchi is NOT OKAY? Is this some new Double Standard in BlazBlue fandom? That is the main meat of the discussion

Yes, I understand you like Makoto, but I also like Litchi, and I also have the same passion on her as you are on Makoto. I didn't STOP you on giving emphasis on Makoto's entries (and even added some entries about her when I can), but THEN you stop ME on Litchi? Preventing someone from bringing passion onto one of his favorites? Imagine that we're in the same school and tasked to decorate the classroom with things of our passion. Then when you look at my passion, which I put quite some emphasis on it but still try to be fair with your passion, you say "Trim it down! Nobody likes your passion!" and I did... and at the same time, you went overboard with your passion. How is that fair?

I remember that you're the one who just threw her into lower morality than Kokonoe back then in Morality Kitchen Sink page. I've honestly spoken with other people and a lot of them disagree with putting her so low just because of being on the bad guys' side. That's why we have the trope Anti-Villain AND Forced Into Evil (which is separate from Face-Heel Turn, I wouldn't call her doing Face-Heel Turn but more like Forced Into Evil). And a Type IV Anti-Villain is usually seen in a better light than a Type V Anti-Hero. I hoped that at least my editings would've let people see better and generate more people that doesn't judge the book by the cover.

I don't care what people thinks. Just because they think I'm annoying when it comes to Litchi, it doesn't mean I should stop gushing about her and as a troper, I believe I have every right to put a good emphasis on her, just like how you put your emphasis on Makoto.

Likewise, if it wasn't me, then there's no one to write about her. Yeah, call it a sad fact in life, but I decided that I will do it. Because I like her, that's all. You are right about me being wrong in doing some White Knighting on her, so I'll keep that in mind and probably won't try to attack these so-called "Fan Dumb" again. However, I hope you can also do some self-inspection and see if what you're doing on Makoto is very similar. Especially on your eventual treatment on Relius in process. I've once scoured the site to trim down many unnecessary overhype and worship of Makoto... I'm sorry to say, but I'm very tempted to repeat the process again.

Hope that doesn't sound so offending. And Cerotech, I'm sorry, but it looks like shitstorm is incoming after all. I fear that this is going to be a petty squabble between us...
SeptimusHeap
moderator
12:35:18 PM May 21st 2012
Folks, please.
  1. Use some more civility and less emphasis.
  2. Removing someone else's opinion just because it's one you disagree with (and yes, the "boards" are also included) is very strictly forbidden on these subjective pages.
ChrisX
03:26:59 PM May 21st 2012
I'll... try, sir. Unfortunately, I seem to have a nasty reputation that people will never let me live down that these other fans will continue to stop me from expressing my opinion because they're annoyed. If there's a way so these fans can let me live that down and let me express my opinion freely without people telling me to "Stop doing that, because you're annoying when you do!"... let me know. Thank you.
CerotechOmega
10:12:17 PM May 21st 2012
Thanks for the input, Septimus. We'll try to keep that in mind in future discussions.

Rags, Chris, both y'all need to chill. I get that Chris has a tendency to fly off the handle when people misinterpret Litchi in a caustic manner. I also get that this behavior tends to annoy a lot of people as well, and not just on TV Tropes. I've been talking him down, true, but it's to try to get him to disconnect that button or dull his response to it, and having it tripped in the process sets us both back.

Chris, I don't want to strain our relations, but I'm serious here - calm the hell down. Part of maturing as a person is learning to bear with the pressures of the world and use these pressures to forge and reshape your viewpoint. If you detonate every time someone spills acid on your view of Litchi, that reputation is only going to worsen. If you can't take it, then back off, collect your resolve in the downtime, and come back when you think you can handle it.

Rags, I may have contributed a bit to the Makoto hyperbole, but I was working off of half-complete facts based on my own observations, and I've cleaned up accordingly. By no means am I saying what you have done is wrong. That said, I will try to aid Chris in what may inevitably be the next hyperbole sweep, if for no other reason than to present the facts. If it goes into overkill, PM both of us before making any moves - we're sitting on a proverbial powder keg with only one extinguishing kit to go around, and someone needs to keep a level head before it goes off.

Gods, I need some sleep, and defusing this crisis took more out of me than I expected. Improper sleep management and work stress give me enough headaches - I don't need another source. This discussion is over.
ChrisX
10:28:41 PM May 21st 2012
edited by ChrisX
There's still a lot I'd say, but to respect Cerotech's effort, I will just take this further to PM (Keep an eye on them). Let's hope we can solve this peacefully, Rags, just like in the Headscratcher section.

But if I may say one thing... At least at the very first, I was about to detonate not because of someone badmouthing Litchi, but because someone looks like they're prohibiting me to say good things about the character I like, while they're free to say good things about characters they like*. That's all, really. We'll take care of the rest via IM/PM.
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