Continued from Silent Hill: Revelation 3D: Valtiel vs Pyramid Head.
"There are no documents during the game or dialog that states that this is what he does when he drags Heather away, this is just one of those baseless fan theories."
There are several references to "Resurrection", "Rebirth", "Agents" and "Attendants of God". I know for a fact that there is at least one in-game document concerning The Halo of the Sun that thoroughly explains the symbolism. Is it spelled out for the player? No. But baseless Fan Wank? Hardly.
"Besides it's all too easy to avoid dying entirely and thus never even see the scene where Vatiel does this anyway."
So? That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
"Valtiel appears in only 3 places in the game and only for very brief moments"
He's seen in the mall, admittedly a minor appearance. He's seen in the Hospital, turning the valve, which ties into the symbolism. And he is all over the chapel, notably during the final boss fight.
"implied doesn't mean fact, even if said implication wasn't incredibly vague,"
You are aware that a significant portion of Silent Hill's mythos is implication right? Nothing is ever spelled out. The developers wanted you to figure things out for yourself, using the symbolism and in-game documents as clues. Or did you think all the textbooks and other things scattered about were there just for the heck of it?
"the fact that he appears and turns a value for some reason which is never explained is the only proof of the people that claim that, if you can call that proof at all"
The valve is more resurrection symbolism, it doesn't have anything to do with the transitions, and I've never heard anyone describing it as such.
"Also, I was only referring to SH3 alone when I said that, not any of the other games or books or anything,"
So was I.
"and even if I wasn't even with what information actually does exist about him Valtiel would still have very little presence."
Here's a question, what DO you know about Valtiel? Because I've given numerous reasons as to why he's an important part of the mythos, and all you've come up with every time is "nope".
"Valtiel only shows up a very small amount of times for only very brief moments, and he doesn't interact with the player in any way. He's not even all that scary, he's just "there". It's easy to forget a creature that only appears briefly and doesn't do anything."
Silent Hill isn't Dead Space. It's psychological horror, not jump scares. In addition to the in-universe resurrection symbolism, Valtiel also represents a stalker, and all the implications that come with that.
"There are countless other monsters in the series that look quite a bit like Valtiel"
All the humanoid monsters look the same and first glance. If you actually stop and look at Valtiel though, you'll see he looks quite different from any of them. He's wearing ceremonial robes, gloves, a mask and has the Seal of Metatron branded on his shoulders. Quite unlike anyone else in the game.
"That backstory is largely presented in supplmentary materials of dubious canonicity,"
The Book of Lost Memories is an officially-approved guide book, with interviews of the writers and art directors. It's canonicity is not "dubious".
"and there's still very little of it."
What else needs to be said? We know what he is and we know how he ties into the mythos, symbolism and themes Silent Hill 3 explores. What else needs to be said?
"Pyramid Head also doesn't have that much information about it but it's a wealth of information by comparison."
Pyramid Head has exactly as much information on him as Valtiel does.
"People have been claiming that Valtiel should be there over Pyramid Head, why? What makes him better?"'
You know, Harry Mason was good, but James Sunderland is just a much better protagonist, let's put him in instead of Harry. Because really, what makes Harry so special that he deserves to be IN HIS OWN ROLE?!
"Besides, Valtiel DID appear a few times in the movie."
Having a group named after you, and a couple of statues in your likeness does not constitute an appearance.
And gee, it's almost as if the filmmakers were aware that Valtiel was important enough to acknowledge. Why else would they do this?
"the rest is educated guesses by fans at best and outright made up by fans at worst and all of it taken as gospel,"
I've just typed this wall of text proving that completely wrong.
"like the assumption that he's dragging Heather off to the symbol in order to resurrect her instead of to some messy doom, or that he's this "janitor" or "god's servant" or..."
Yep, all that Resurrection symbolism, and references to Agents of God, not the mention of the book that thoroughly explains the Halo of the Sun, and the fact that Valtiel is never seen attacking Heather, yep it's all meaningless. Of course, why didn't we see it before?
"in fact, it's much harder to find the things that actually true about the creature than the things that people have just assumed without any actual proof."
No more so than anything else in this series.
"NOW you're being hyperbolic,"
You're right, that was hyperbolic, sorry. However...
"Pyramid Head is a one of Silent Hill's most recognizable icons, thus having him in a Silent Hill movie makes sense,"
If this was a Silent Hill 2 movie, sure, throw him in. But it's not a adaptation of Silent Hill 2, is it? So it still makes no freaking sense!
"Besides, that's what expys are for."
That's one thing I'll give 0rigins credit for, it knew better than that stick Pyramid Head into a completely unrelated story.
"The fact that I care for the story both of the games and of the movies is the very reason why I object having some nonthreatening nobody monster thrown in this movie instead of using one of the Silent Hill francise's best, most fleshed out, and most recognizable monsters."
For some one who supposedly cares for the story, you are awfully eager to ignore the fact that Pyramid Head had a very specific role in Silent Hill 2. He was the manifestation of James' guilt for murdering Mary (and later Eddie, when a second Pyramid Head appears), and his subconscious desire to be punished. Tell me how that fits in Silent Hill 3? Please, I'm honestly, very interested in that answer.
And for a role that was supposedly so unimportant, it's funny how they went to great lengths to explain that Pyramid Head's role in Revelations is identical to that of Valtiel's role in Silent Hill 3; you know, that role that we fans supposedly made up all on our own? Funny how that works. There's even a couple of scenes of Pyramid Head turning valves.
Edited by Primis Hide / Show Replies
"There are several references to "Resurrection", "Rebirth", "Agents" and "Attendants of God". I know for a fact that there is at least one in-game document concerning The Halo of the Sun that thoroughly explains the symbolism. Is it spelled out for the player? No. But baseless Fan Wank? Hardly."
"You are aware that a significant portion of Silent Hill's mythos is implication right? Nothing is ever spelled out. The developers wanted you to figure things out for yourself, using the symbolism and in-game documents as clues. Or did you think all the textbooks and other things scattered about were there just for the heck of it?"
"Silent Hill isn't Dead Space. It's psychological horror, not jump scares. In addition to the in-universe resurrection symbolism, Valtiel also represents a stalker, and all the implications that come with that."
"Yep, all that Resurrection symbolism, and references to Agents of God, not the mention of the book that thoroughly explains the Halo of the Sun, and the fact that Valtiel is never seen attacking Heather, yep it's all meaningless. Of course, why didn't we see it before?"
Whatever it is, if it isn't spelled out what exactly that it is and what it's purpose is, then it's just baseless Fan Wank. Something that can be interpreted is opinionated and thus not fact. It doesn't matter if the series as a whole is designed to be interpreted rather than given outright. The very reason the Book of Lost Memories exists is to put an end to this Fan Wank, but BLM it is not a factor in this discussion because the entire discussion is about whether Valtiel is important and identifiable enough to appear in this adaption instead of Pyramid Head. The fact that Valtiel never appears to do anything in SH 3 and people need to read a guide book in order to know anything at all about him is proof enough that Valtiel isn't important enough.
"Here's a question, what DO you know about Valtiel? Because I've given numerous reasons as to why he's an important part of the mythos, and all you've come up with every time is "nope"."
As far as I'm concerned, Valtiel is some random monster that never attacks or does much of anything. I know all that Lost Memories says about him, but that is irrelevant, he never does anything in the game itself, thus he is unimportant.
"All the humanoid monsters look the same and first glance. If you actually stop and look at Valtiel though, you'll see he looks quite different from any of them. He's wearing ceremonial robes, gloves, a mask and has the Seal of Metatron branded on his shoulders. Quite unlike anyone else in the game."
And how many times does Valtiel appear for long enough and in good enough view for the player have to actually give him that close a look? Unless they are recording their playing sessions and pause and advance it frame by frame, none.
"Pyramid Head has exactly as much information on him as Valtiel does."
In the games that they appear in themselves, in other words the only part most fans are actually likely to have seen? No.
"You know, Harry Mason was good, but James Sunderland is just a much better protagonist, let's put him in instead of Harry. Because really, what makes Harry so special that he deserves to be IN HIS OWN ROLE?!"
The fact that Harry actually has something to do with the previous movie's story which Revelations continues while James doesn't might have something to do with it, and if Harry's fate at the end of the movie is any indication, if they continue THAT story as well with the next one they'll probably end up having to put Harry in James' place. You are being hyperbolic again.
"Having a group named after you, and a couple of statues in your likeness does not constitute an appearance."
Heather hallcinates Valtiel several times for only a few seconds and also Harry was tied to one of his statues. His role was no more involved or siginificant than it was in SH 3. What, you'd rather of had Valtiel run around kicking ass?
"And gee, it's almost as if the filmmakers were aware that Valtiel was important enough to acknowledge. Why else would they do this?"
So they can put in Pyramid Head and at the same time stop the whining of "Valtiel was supposed to be in the movie!" from people like you.
"If this was a Silent Hill 2 movie, sure, throw him in. But it's not a adaptation of Silent Hill 2, is it? So it still makes no freaking sense!"
Again, Revelations isn't an adaption of SH 3, it's a movie that takes it name and the character's names from SH 3 and little else. If it was an adaption of SH 3, you'd be right, there wouldn't be Pyramid Head, there wouldn't be Douglas dying, it would be Harry, the cult wouldn't be out to destroy Heather they'd be out to turn her into their God, and so forth. Revelations isn't Silent Hill 3 and you should quit acting it's supposed to be. Having Pyramid Head in makes plenty of sense, you just don't want to admit it.
"For some one who supposedly cares for the story, you are awfully eager to ignore the fact that Pyramid Head had a very specific role in Silent Hill 2. He was the manifestation of James' guilt for murdering Mary (and later Eddie, when a second Pyramid Head appears), and his subconscious desire to be punished. Tell me how that fits in Silent Hill 3? Please, I'm honestly, very interested in that answer."
First, both of the movies are very loose at best and In Name Only at worst adaptions of the video game series, Revelations is no more SH 3 than the first movie is SH 1. Second, you are acting under the assumption that Pyramid Head's role and purpose in the movieverse is even remotely related to the same in SH 2, and it's directly stated in the movie that that's not the case anyway. What you and others like you are doing is whining that Revelations isn't a scene for scene direct adaption of SH 3, when it isn't, wasn't intended to be, and shouldn't have to be.
"And for a role that was supposedly so unimportant, it's funny how they went to great lengths to explain that Pyramid Head's role in Revelations is identical to that of Valtiel's role in Silent Hill 3; you know, that role that we fans supposedly made up all on our own? Funny how that works. There's even a couple of scenes of Pyramid Head turning valves."
Again, it was an attempt to keep people like you quiet. They weren't going to stick some unimportant monster that few fans remember and even fewer actually care about over the one that all the fans know and all the fans are scared to hell by.
Edited by immortalfrieza
"Whatever it is, if it isn't spelled out what exactly that it is and what it's purpose is, then it's just baseless Fan Wank."
So basically, everything has to have kindergarten-level writing, subtlety and implication aren’t real, and literary analysis is for obsessive nerds. You would probably lapse into a coma if you tried to watch Lost.
"Something that can be interpreted is opinionated and thus not fact."
Valtiel turning the valve (and all the other "cycling" imagery) is resurrection symbolism, it does not mean anything else. That's confirmed by both Word of God and in-game documents, ignoring that does not make it go away.
"It doesn't matter if the series as a whole is designed to be interpreted rather than given outright."
So you're telling me that completely ignoring the franchise's very reason for existing, and considering it nothing more than a series of random, meaningless images, is a better alternative than using your brain and thinking?
"The very reason the Book of Lost Memories exists is to put an end to this Fan Wank,"
Yeah, and guess what? It confirmed EVERYTHING that the audience had been saying, and everything that I’ve said thus far. So much for that whole “baseless fan wank” idea.
"but BLM it is not a factor in this discussion because the entire discussion is about whether Valtiel is important and identifiable enough to appear in this adaption instead of Pyramid Head."
How convenient. Ignore everything that proves how important he is, and say there's nothing that shows how important he is.
"The fact that Valtiel never appears to do anything in SH 3 and people need to read a guide book in order to know anything at all about him is proof enough that Valtiel isn't important enough."
That's bull. Just because you need things spelled out to see their significance doesn't mean everyone did.
Do you really think Silent Hill 3 would've been improved if the gameplay came to screeching halt every time something showed up, and a cutscene played to explain it? Only Metal Gear can get away with that, and even then it's still widely loathed.
The symbolism in Silent Hill 3 and especially 2 are still being analyzed and talked about today. There's nothing else like it in AAA gaming scene.
"As far as I'm concerned, Valtiel is some random monster that never attacks or does much of anything. I know all that Lost Memories says about him, but that is irrelevant, he never does anything in the game itself, thus he is unimportant."
Okay then, by that logic, what makes Pyramid Head so important? All he does is attack James and Maria, nothing particularly special about that, all the monsters do that. Nothing is spelled out for him either.
Oh, I forgot, he's cool and recognizable, so he gets a free pass.
"And how many times does Valtiel appear for long enough and in good enough view for the player have to actually give him that close a look? Unless they are recording their playing sessions and pause and advance it frame by frame, none."
At first you might not notice it, I'll give you that; but it doesn't take long to get familiar with all the monsters, so pretty soon you're gonna realize that this guy doesn't look like all the others, even with his brief appearances.
Oh, and that scene where he's turning the valve? You can stay there as long as you want, and get as good of a look at him as you want. That very same scene is the first scene of the opening cinematic, so even if you skip it you're still gonna see that.
Weird how they had such a meaningless character be the first thing you see every time you start the game, isn't it? Even Pyramid Head didn't get that honor in 2, he doesn't even show up in 2's opening cutscene.
"In the games that they appear in themselves, in other words the only part most fans are actually likely to have seen? No."
Pyramid Head has a painting, and single line that say who he is, and the painting doesn't even really say much. Hardly a wealth of information.
"The fact that Harry actually has something to do with the previous movie's story which Revelations continues while James doesn't might have something to do with it, [...] You are being hyperbolic again."
That is not hyperbole. That is the same damn thing that happened to Valtiel. I don't care if you don't think Valtiel was important or interesting, he was in Silent Hill 3 and he had a specific role, Pyramid Head was not and did not. That is not debatable.
Valtiel's role (the role that you think doesn't exist or matter) is mentioned in detail numerous times, only with Pyramid Head in his place, for no other reason than because he's recognizable/cooler (you said so yourself). I.E., the same damn thing as my hypothetical scenario.
And for your information, Harry had little-to-nothing to do with the first film. His role, surprise surprise, was hijacked by a completely different character, Cheryl's mother, who is supposed to be dead by this point in the story. Har- er, Christopher, just wandered around aimlessly the entire movie. You could've removed his scenes entirely and nothing would've changed except the run-time.
That just made me realize something. If consistency is so important to you, why don't you care about Rose not being in this movie? True, she shows up for a minute, to give a really sloppy, nonsensical explanation for Sharon getting home, but her absence is still rather glaring.
Her role as Sharon's sole parent is taken by Christopher, ironically who she stole it from in the first place. Rose was the protagonist of the first film, meaning the audience is more familiar with her than Christopher, so it would've been far more effective, from an audience perspective, to have her be the kidnapping victim.
Anyway, back on topic...
Yes, Pyramid Head was in the first film, so sure, have him in the sequel, that's fine. But here's the thing: the first film NEVER MENTIONS ANYTHING about Valtiel's role, EVER. That's a retcon if there ever was one, and it was all Revelation's doing.
If it was so damn important to have ol' Trigonometry Face, they could've easily had both. If they kept both, they even could've kept Pyramid Head's real purpose (e.g. guilt and punishment) intact. That's already what they were implying with the first film, until Revelation retconned that away.
If it was a budget issue that prevented that, here's an idea: don't do that laughably stupid, not to mention completely meaningless, spider-mannequin scene. Or include The Missionary, who used to represent abortion, but now is just another random monster. Oh and he's Claudia now, because apparently we're in the Legend of Zelda now.
Or just leave out Valtiel entirely. That would be fine, too. You don’t adapt Dune, remove Duncan and replace him with Thufir and say they’re the same character. It just doesn’t work that way.
"and if Harry's fate at the end of the movie is any indication, if they continue THAT story as well with the next one they'll probably end up having to put Harry in James' place."
That would be even more idiotic than everything else combined. Silent Hill 2 is the only game that is not connected to the mythos, tying it in is asinine. Not to mention that the circumstances are wildly different and completely incompatible: Mary is dead (always was, James murdered her), Rose isn’t. James was never really contacted, Christopher was. James is insane, Christopher isn’t.
And there's not going to be a third movie. The first film didn't break even, and the reception was average at best. Revelation had less than half the budget, still didn't break even, and its reception has been absolutely horrific. It'll get a sequel around the same time Doom does.
"Heather hallcinates Valtiel several times for only a few seconds"
When? I don't remember that. Even so, Valtiel was not a hallucination, so that still doesn't constitute an appearance.
"His role was no more involved or siginificant than it was in SH 3."
I like how you think your opinion is the only important one.
'I don't like this character, therefore he's insignificant and should be removed. I don't care what you intended and I don't believe in subtlety or symbolism.'
"What, you'd rather of had Valtiel run around kicking ass? "
Oh, yeah, definitely. That's exactly what I've been saying. Thank you for acknowledging that, and not at all ignoring everything that I've been saying, thank you so much.
It's funny that you say that though, because that's pretty much what Pyramid Head did, in stark contrast to what he does in the game, where he is much more restrained, and thus more terrifying.
"So they can put in Pyramid Head and at the same time stop the whining of "Valtiel was supposed to be in the movie!" from people like you."
Here's a question: How in the hell would anyone have complained about Valtiel not being in this movie, BEFORE THE MOVIE'S EVEN RELEASED?!
It's more like Valtiel was an important part of the mythos, so they had to acknowledge him somehow, but ultimately were forced to include Pyramid Head in his place to pander to people like YOU that think Pyramid Head is some sort of freaking mascot of the franchise, even though he's only been in two games! One of which was little more than a cameo appearance.
As I said above, nothing was mentioned of Valtiel in the first film. They made that choice to turn Pyramid Head into a Valtiel expy. No one was forcing them. And no one was complaining about a lack of Valtiel because he was not in the first Silent Hill.
You know what I did see though? Lots of people complaining about Pyramid Head being in that movie because he wasn't in the game.
People are only complaining now because they completely screwed him over for the more marketable Pyramid Head. It would’ve been better to just leave him out entirely. They left out Dr. Kaufmann in the first film, they didn’t try and give Lisa his role.
"Again, Revelations isn't an adaption of SH 3, it's a movie that takes it name and the character's names from SH 3 and little else. If it was an adaption of SH 3, you'd be right, there wouldn't be Pyramid Head, there wouldn't be Douglas dying, it would be Harry, the cult wouldn't be out to destroy Heather they'd be out to turn her into their God, and so forth. Revelations isn't Silent Hill 3 and you should quit acting it's supposed to be. Having Pyramid Head in makes plenty of sense, you just don't want to admit it. "
Wow.
◊
I've heard some pretty pathetic defenses for bad adaptations, but this takes the cake. Seriously, bravo.
This is an interview with Michael J. Bassett, the director:
"It's an adaptation of game number three - it's an adaptation of that story, the mythology and the ride that you go on"
...
So what were you saying, again?
"Revelations [...] takes it name and the character's names from SH 3 and little else. Revelations isn't Silent Hill 3 and you should quit acting it's supposed to be."
Yes, that "little else" being basic premise, set-pieces, and plot points. Totally different from what an adaptation does. I suggest you go play Silent Hill 1 and 3, because you clearly have never played them, or at least not in such a long time that your memories of them have almost completely faded, and then watch the movies. Do that, and tell me again that the movies are not adaptations.
Completely destroying the source material does not mean it's no longer an adaptation. That is honestly some of the worst logic I've ever heard. That's Catalyst-level horrible logic.
What especially hilarious about this, is that the first movie fits that bill far better than Revelation does. Revelation has many, many more nods to its respective game than the first movie did to its game, but it's just done so poorly that it ends up the worse movie for it.
"Having Pyramid Head in makes plenty of sense, you just don't want to admit it."
...
I'm still waiting for you to explain this. Even if I accept your "it's not really an adaptation" idea, it still doesn't make any sense, because he's even more meaningless in that context. It makes about as much sense as my earlier Darth Vader idea.
"you are acting under the assumption that Pyramid Head's role and purpose in the movieverse is even remotely related to the same in SH 2,"
Yes, silly me, assuming that an adaptation which contains a certain character, will give that character the same reason for being there.
Otherwise that he would have absolutely no reason for being there, and his appearance would be pointless Fanservice at best, and Pandering to the Base at worst. And that couldn't possibly be it, could it?
"and it's directly stated in the movie that that's not the case anyway."
Going by the first film, that’s not true. In fact he's barely acknowledged in the first film.
"What you and others like you are doing is whining that Revelations isn't a scene for scene direct adaption of SH 3, when it isn't, wasn't intended to be, and shouldn't have to be. "
No, we're not. At all. I've already proven how your "it's not an adaptation" idea is a load of bull, and no one has ever said that it should be "shot-for-shot".
I was actually okay with the first film, it was a decent adaptation of the first game, it changed a lot, but ultimately the atmosphere and themes were intact.
All we- all I want is a movie that doesn't rip the source material to shreds, and then try and piece it back together with tape.
I'd even be okay with your "not-adaptation" idea: a movie that takes the subtle, psychological and symbolic approach that the games do, but ultimately tells an original tale. That's pretty much what each subsequent game is anyway.
"Again, it was an attempt to keep people like you quiet."
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you were on the crew, or that you were clairvoyant as I noted above.
"They weren't going to stick some unimportant monster that few fans remember and even fewer actually care about"
I love how you think you speak for the entire fanbase.
I already said this quite a while ago, but it bears repeating:
If you feel a particular character didn’t get enough development, well now is your chance to fix that. Develop him, MAKE him memorable. That is the point of exposition and dialogue. That makes infinitely more sense than completely cutting that character out, and replacing him with an entirely different, completely unrelated character, who wasn't even in the same goddamn story.
"Over the one that all the fans know and all the fans are scared to hell by."
Honestly, I was laughing my ass off over how undignified they made Pyramid Head in this movie.
I don't know about you, but I found Pyramid Head far more terrifying when I was locked inside a tiny room with him, with only a few bullets and a wooden plank as my only defense, as he slowly approached me with that huge butcher knife.
Or when I was on the rooftop, and he spontaneously appeared behind me and threw me over the edge. Or when I was in the hallway desperately trying to outrun him, while he chased me with a spear.
But hey, that's just me. Maybe you find him menacingly turning a carousel to be the epitome of terror.
Edited by Primis
This page isn't fridge Logic; it's a collection of headscratchers and an argument. It ought to be cleared out.