Alright then, time for my reply then.
Since we don't really see Wiseman's characterisation much before he becomes Wiseman, it didn't really fit with the spirit of the trope but fair enough, I'll concede on that one.
For Ron the Death eater, I can see where you are coming from about the future Senshi however first off though, from what can be told, Serenity performed the Purification after the people submitted to doing it and it's never stated how she became queen, whether of her own will or because everyone wanted her to. Likewise the Senshi from Crystal Tokyo are set centuries in the future well after even the Sailor Galaxia arc, you can't expect them to act every bit like their past selves considering what would've happened in that time. Either way, I think that Ron the Death Eater is a bit strong for this, especially given the negative connotations. Perhaps there should be a note on how the present day ones don't fall under this.
Emerald was not doing it in jest, he was doing it in anger. He's spent centuries looking for the opportunity to complete his goals and after finding out he's almost there only to trip because of some small thing he never considered made him mad. More to the point, he did not actually verbally express the desire to kill Luna and was just ranting in his head, how many people would be considered unsympathetic if we took every instance of unexpressed threats made in anger, it really comes across as rather shallow for something extra to add to Unintentionally Unsympathetic.
His threatening to tear Queen Serenity to bits also falls under this. From his perspective, she had just thrown away the best chance the planet has of surviving on a hopeless mission and basically has doomed the world. It doesn't matter that he's wrong on the doomed part, and there are plenty of people who would express anger at what they see as wasting the chance of survival on a gamble, and plenty of people may scream things like "I'll kill you" when extremely angered.
We don't even find out if Mamoru was actually sleeping with Beryl (the only vague reference to it was Emerald commenting that Mamoru had a large bed for one person, which could mean a number of things), so there's no need to constantly emphasis rape as if it was an undeniable fact. As I said it was mainly, admittedly mean spirited, verbal jabs that don't necessarily have weight behind them (e.g. coming home only to find your husband/wife/roommate/etc has evidently burned something in the kitchen and playfully mocking them about trying to burn the house down).
Also, Emerald was not trying to kill Mamoru at least at first. It was only when he had an almost lethal injury inflicted onto him, that he realised there was a real chance of him failing and possibly dying that he had underestimated Mamoru. Even then he only decided to not hold back and it was clear he was still going to try and take Mamoru back alive but if he dies in the process of disabling him then tough luck, remember Emerald doesn't actually care about him in the grand scheme of things.
Likewise Emerald was in fact conflicted with the Brainwashing thing. He was definitely against the idea of leaving Mamoru behind, if partly for his own interests, and he was more annoyed at the fact that it seems to happen regularly to Mamoru and mocks him for it because he didn't like him while still fully intending to rescue him.
It's also noted that the Purification is too diluted to have any real harm on Emerald even when he it was just him, let alone people who contain a diluted trace of his power true he didn't know exactly what was going to happen but it was reasonable to expect it go ok. Reckless perhaps but not exactly unintentionally unsympathetic.
Edited by 60.241.242.70
My point about Draco in Leather Pants was that we WERE told how he was. The manga states "We encountered them once, centuries ago. [...] I had almost forgotten ab out him, but there was a man who revived crime. He became the leader of a whole movement. The man was insane. The leader's name was Wiseman". However if you'd prefer, the entry could specify that he's an arguable example, say something along the lines of "Emerald is an arguable example. While his character is given more focus and fleshing out, canon explains that Wiseman (who Emerald would have grown up to be in another timeline) was once a citizen of Crystal Tokyo who lead a rebellion against Neo Queen Serenity, bringing back crimes to the land. Here, he's a Broken Ace trying to free the people of Crystal Tokyo from what he sees as unfair rule." Would that be satisfactory for both sides?
"from what can be told, Serenity performed the Purification after the people submitted to doing it and it's never stated how she became queen, whether of her own will or because everyone wanted her to."
Actually I don't recall it being specified that the people consented to Purification, just that they wanted her to be queen. Regardless of whether or not the people did consent though, Emerald's description - that she essentially removed their drives to accomplish things and basically left them as compliant zombies - really makes her using it on people come across as far more villainous than her canon self was portrayed.
The same with your point about the senshi. There's a difference between them being hardened and being so callous about killing two children.
My point is, it's not right to say that this trope is fully averted because we're supposed to see it as POSSIBLE that what Emerald's saying is correct. If we take him as an insane person talking out of his ass, yes this trope is averted. If we believe everything he does say - that the senshi are brutal and psychotic and NQ Serenity mentally castrated the world and subjected Emerald to a Kangaroo Court and felt she had a right to be queen (something which Usagi never did) - then it most certainly does fit this trope. And since a large chunk of the readership DOES follow the latter interpretation (most of the FF.net reviews and the recs on this website I've seen praised the ending for being hopeful and uplifting - something which doesn't exactly gel with the interpretation that a villain destroyed a genuine utopia and all the people in it) I feel that ignoring that interpretation is not right. Ron the Death Eater is a trope, the same as any other trope. If the case can be made that the fanfic uses it, keeping it out because it's "a bit strong" is not how TV Tropes work. That's the point of the YMMV tab - the entries are there because our milage may vary.
Not to mention that if we go with your argument, then Pluto herself would still fall under the trope. Pluto in canon took her duties as the guardian of time very seriously, going as far as to attack Sailor Moon for unauthorized time travel. If I'm wrong and the fanfiction 100% supports the idea that Serenity is a benevolent ruler and Crystal Tokyo's fine, then Pluto essentially destroyed an entire kingdom and countless happy people in it - including all of her friends and her queen - and seriously screws up the flow of time by allowing a known criminal to time travel all for her personal tastes. So no matter which way you slice it, this trope is going on. Again, I can understand emphasizing that it's left vague depending on how much of an Unreliable Narrator you feel Emerald is, but saying that it's not going on at all is glossing over quite a few things.
Whether Emerald was speaking in jest or anger, that doesn't make his comments any less distasteful. To bring in a comparison that I saw someone else make about a different series, in the unpublished novel "Midnight Sun" (the companion to Twilight), Edward constantly mentally expresses a desire to kill/dismember/severely harm boys who show an interest in Bella. No doubt the author intended for it to be normal jealousy... except we already know that Edward made a career of sorts out of killing people. Thus, what would have been understandable in other circumstances becomes a good bit creepier. Emerald HAS killed people before and is pretty obviously unhinged. Him thinking "I want to tear that cat to pieces!" is vastly different than a stable but temporarily furious person thinking "I'm going to kill that idiot!"
Not to mention, in both cases, Emerald's reactions are the same - he's angry because Luna and Serenity aren't doing what he wants. He doesn't think of alternative plans, he doesn't worry that he won't reach his goal, he doesn't experience fear or concern. All he thinks is that they went against what he was planning and he is furious enough to threaten them.
No, we don't know if Beryl was making Mamoru sleep with her. Emerald, however, follows up the large bed line with "Sleeping your way to the top yet again, hmm?" I'd hardly call the implications of that "vague". And my point is that verbal jabs like that are still horrible things to say. There is a massive difference between playfully mocking a loved one and making accusations like that.
I got the impression that Emerald didn't care much about Mamoru's wellbeing even before that. Before Emerald was stabbed, Mamoru thinks, "And the worst of it was, he wasn't completely sure the man wasn't holding back. What had started out as an attempt to knock the spy out had quickly degenerated into a fight for survival... his survival." Not to mention, "if he dies in the process of disabling him then tough luck, remember Emerald doesn't actually care about him in the grand scheme of things"? How is that supposed to build the argument that Emerald isn't sympathetic? Saying "He tried to save him (mostly for ulterior motives) but didn't mind if he died in the process because he didn't really care about him" hardly makes Emerald a particularly sympathetic figure.
The fact that he was "annoyed" that Mamoru keeps being brainwashed, likewise, doesn't prove that he's not unsympathetic. Again, he's supposed to consider brainwashing to be one of the worst things a person could be subjected to. He repeatedly writes about how he hates the idea of a person losing their free will. He made it clear that he viewed brainwashing as akin to turning a person into a zombie. If anything, he ought to be horrified that Mamoru has been subjected to this multiple times. (Not to mention, considering the many things about the past Emerald doesn't know - Sailor Moon and NQ Serenity being the same most notably - it seems pretty brassy of Emerald to mock someone about a period of their life that he probably knows very little about.)
The fact still remains that he tampered with the entire planet and everyone on it. And being reckless and unintentionally unsympathetic are not mutually exclusive. In fact, there are quite a few examples of a character's recklessness being intended as heroic or endearing and people find it off-putting. Off the top of my head, the movie The Amazing Spider-Man had Peter decide to continue pursuing Gwen Stacy even though he knows it puts her at risk. This was meant to be seen as romantic, but people saw it as irresponsibile and careless and thus it was added as an example to the page.
In general, I think there's a misunderstanding of Unintentionally Unsympathetic going on. The very first line of the page definition states that "When a character's supposed insecurities or embarrassing quirks are supposed to inspire sympathy, but fail to impress the audience because they're mishandled or plain written badly." You're arguing that the points brought up are meant to be Emerald joking or reacting in frustration or trying to save the future, but that's not the point. The point isn't whether or not he has motives or justifications. The point is whether or not the reader finds them sufficient to cover the things he does or says. I know there are readers who think it does, but I also know there are other readers (myself included, but others as well) who don't. Like I said, that's the point of this being on the "Your Milage May Vary" tab. It's a trope for reader reactions and readers ARE having that reaction.
If I recall, this fic uses the anime version of Wiseman which has a different backstory to the manga version. Still, the compromise is acceptable and I had already accepted it before didn't I? Though I don't think Emerald falls under Broken Ace.
Remember we have almost no context for the incident with the tv show. The senshi could have deliberately shot the children because they were aiding Emerald, or perhaps they were aiming for Emerald and didn't expect the children to help him and killed or hurt them accidentally in the process of fighting Emerald
The Pluto thing is sort of complicated but it boils down to two things. If we take Emerald at his word and the Senshi and Serenity have become misguided in the end then it can be seen as Pluto steering the timeline into a course more in line with the canon one (changing the past would change how the whole Crystal Tokyo thing would work out with likely different versions of the Senshi). On the other hand, if Pluto is seen as a villain then, she changed the timeline because a purified Crystal Tokyo wasn't what she wanted or had in mind.
Still, considering just how fluid people can take this, in the case of Ron the Death Eater, then shouldn't we also make a case for it either being played straight or averted depending on how much we Emerald at his word?
There is also a point made that Emerald does his best not to let his emotions get the better of him and he goes to pretty extreme lengths to keep himself as mentally stable as possible. Also, what do you mean Emerald doesn't make alternative plans, he had decided that since Serenity has appeared he'll have to tail the Senshi until he finds her. He doesn't come out and threaten Luna into telling him who Serenity is, he's just angry that they know but won't tell him and he has to regroup his avenues to accomplish his goals, he doesn't see it as not being able to accomplish his goals but just a minor setback, why would he be afraid or concerned?
Whether a person has killed or not killed is irrelevant to getting furious and thinking I'm gonna kill him/her (it does have an effect on how willing they are to actually follow through with a threat). What matters is the intent, Emerald clearly isn't planning on forcing the information out of Luna and he clearly isn't planning on actually tearing her to pieces because she won't tell him who Serenity is.
Also, Emerald isn't angry at Queen Serenity because she won't do what he wants. He doesn't explode at her until she mentions she sent the Senshi off to the heart of the Dark Kingdom, he was quite calm when he met Queen Serenity even after knowing she whisked Sailor Moon away. Even then he doesn't say "bring them back here or I'll kill you" again, matters here is the intent and saying he would kill her if she wasn't dead for sending the Senshi on a suicide mission is more emphasis on how furious he is at her.
Verbal jabs can be horrible, but it's a petty reason to stick on Unintentionally Unsympathetic. There are plenty of even heroic characters who make mean spirited jabs, some of which are also incredibly offensive if one thinks them through.
Mamoru's viewpoint is not the most accurate for gauging what Emerald's intent is in a fight. Who said I was saying that Emerald was sympathetic, I'm arguing that his, admittedly selfish, reasons for bringing back Mamoru and his actions are understandable if not admirable.
He does consider brainwashing to be one of the worst things possible, doesn't mean he can't quip about it. That falls into Gallows Humour. Nor does that mean he's going to get emotional about it and put aside everything else. It's even noted in the story that he considered it a dilemma on what he should feel. People have mocked other people when knowing only a few details all the time, it's nothing for you to bring out like Emerald doing so is particularly shocking.
I meant that the Anti-Purification could be considered reckless. Emerald finally has a chance to accomplish his goals, it's been noted that he's worked it out and his spell is based on a formula so it's clear that he isn't just shooting his energy into the atmosphere and erasing himself on an off chance of success. The fact that he decides to goes through with it does not make him unsympathetic.
Notice that I didn't actually delete your entry. I will admit that I changed it too much and without putting in adequate reason but I did so because your initial entry had stuff out of context or worded in a way that can easily give the wrong idea. Also, Unintentionally Unsympathetic refers to instances where the author deliberately intends for a portrayal to be sympathetic and some of your examples are rather narrowed.
Would something like this fit better.
Although Emerald's ultimate intentions are good, for those who consider him an Anti-Hero, his attempts to change the established future can be seen as ineffectually fighting a lost battle based on his own vendetta and a stubborn refusal to accept the facts while only causing grief for people who neither want his help and have managed to move on past the events. The fact that he is willing to go so far as to travel into the past to get his victory arguably puts him squarely into Well-Intentioned Extremist, especially combined with several morally gray things he has done.
Edited by 60.241.242.70
To everyone posting here. Not that I disagree with your points but you should try practicing economical writing.
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Plus, one should keep to broad brushes when talking about Draco in Leather Pants and Ron the Death Eater - these tropes are broad brushes, not about minutiae.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Alright, I'll keep you advice in mind.
So do you mean Draco in Leather Pants and Ron the Death Eater should only refer to major characters who's personalities are transformed into a 180 obviously enough that one you can tell at a glance what's been done to them?
Thanks. Wanting to present your point in the most complete way possible is more than understandable. But massive Walls o' Text can make discussion pages hard to read.
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
^^I did not say "major characters" or "180 degress". What I did say is that these tropes are major characterization shifts. Not just about minor changes in character behaviour.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
@ Logo P - Understood and apologies. ^^;
@ Septimus Heap - should we keep that same thing in mind for the debate on Unintentionally Unsympathetic? I ask because all the examples I've seen on that page are pretty detailed, but if they're also meant to be in broad strokes, I'll do that.
@ Anon -
RE Draco in Leather Pants: In that case, I'll remove the Broken Ace link and post that example right away.
RE Ron the Death Eater: "considering just how fluid people can take this, in the case of Ron the Death Eater, then shouldn't we also make a case for it either being played straight or averted depending on how much we Emerald at his word?" Erm, yes, I did say that it would be more appropriate to change the entry to the trope being arguably applicable. The same with your point on Pluto. Perhaps this:
"Ron the Death Eater - Arguably applied to Neo-Queen Serenity and the future senshi, depending on whether or not one takes Emerald's words at face value. If he is to be believed, Serenity committed planet-wide brainwashing and the senshi were ruthless soldiers. If one takes him as an Unreliable Narrator though, this trope is averted. In the latter case, there's also Pluto, who in canon takes her duties as guardian of time incredibly seriously and in the fic allows a known criminal to travel through time and screw around with the past, allowing an entire world be consumed by nothingness just because Crystal Tokyo didn't turn out as she wanted it to.
Would that be satisfactory? Broad strokes and makes it clear that it's ambiguous and all.
RE: Unintentionally Unsympathetic - "Who said I was saying that Emerald was sympathetic, I'm arguing that his, admittedly selfish, reasons for bringing back Mamoru and his actions are understandable if not admirable." That's really the entire point here. The trope doesn't mean that a character's actions aren't UNDERSTANDABLE, it's that the reasons aren't seen as sufficient to excuse what they do. If you go on that page, there are plenty of examples that are given explanation in-universe. And obviously, as our debate here points out, mileage varies on that sort of thing.
I guess at this point the main issue is a need to see if there are general guidelines for entries for this trope, since we have different ideas as to what makes it up.
Yep, that's fine for Draco in Leather Pants
I think there should also be a point on how the present Senshi avert Ron the Death Eater since they're the ones we actually see the most and it may confuse people who haven't read the fic.
I think the main point of contention I had was that the examples you used were either misquoted or seemed rather petty to me. I've always felt that just acting like a jerk wasn't enough to qualify unless it was egregious.
Also, I did offer a alternate entry for Unintentionally Unsympathetic that, in my opinion, encompasses the bigger picture more. Do you have any feedback on that? Or anything to add?
I really don't see any reason to specifically mention the present-day senshi. I fail to see how it would be confusing, since the entire entry as it is focuses on all the characters of the future (Neo-Queen Serenity, Crystal Tokyo, Pluto, etc.) If anything, bringing the present characters into that would be mixing it up more. Not to mention, doesn't TV Tropes discourage the practice of bringing up when characters don't fit tropes unless it's really notable? If the present day senshi (who are mentioned plenty in the rest of the article so it's not like no one wouldn't know they were in the fic) aren't mentioned under the trope, I think folks will assume it's because they don't fit it.
Er, the page for Unintentionally Unsympathetic has examples of all sorts. The Trixie Belden entry has about six or so bullet points detailing how she's unsympathetic in one book, with the main point boiling down to "She was incredibly rude without reason to a kid, making fun of his clothes." Like I've said, the point of the trope is if something makes a character unsympathetic and it wasn't meant to do that.
In regards to your alternate entry, I personally think we should just stick with what's already on the page until there's some word about whether or not the trope has guidelines to keep in mind. The current entry still gives some specific examples, and until there's word otherwise, I don't feel comfortable with an entry that has none (especially since most of the entries on the trope page are very specific in regards to why characters come across as unsympathetic).
Alright. I'll change Ron the Death Eater, if that's all good.
Okey-dokey, from what Septimus Heap said in regards to whether or not there were certain guidelines, "Unintentionally Unsympathetic is an Audience Reaction that requires a character to be set up by the story as sympathetic. If the latter is not the case then it's just "unsymphatetic character"."
So it looks like the best way to go about this is what happened with Ron the Death Eater - that is, to specify that the trope is arguable depending on how one views the character.
With that in mind, looking over what we both have suggested, I propose this:
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Emerald, depending on how he's looked at. If his claims are taken as true (that he's fighting to save Earth from brainwashing), then his goal is noble enough but his constant mockery of the people of Crystal Tokyo (calling them zombie, cattle, and sheep, even the children) can make him come across as unlikable. He also is condescending to the present-day senshi despite claiming to hold some respect for them and some of his more violent thoughts can come across as a bit alarming. His jabs and behavior towards Mamoru also come across as mean-spirited, particularly when he admits to mainly bothering to save him from the Dark Kingdom to win the senshi's trust and, despite partially wanting to impress Mars, admitting he didn't do it for her to be nice.
Would that work?
Right. There's some debate on some of tropes for this page, so let's get this straightened out:
First of all, Emerald "bantering" does not make the things he says any less unsympathetic. A character making jokes about a person being raped or about how they want to kill someone, especially when they HAVE killed many people already, is in EXTREMELY poor taste. Frankly, I consider someone who, even in jest, expresses a desire to kill a sentient cat to be very unsympathetic. Not to mention, you deleted the example of his saying how he would have torn Queen Serenity to pieces if she was alive - I fail to see how that was meant to be funny. It was made clear that Emerald was being driven to genuine anger, and again he already had killed many people. Even if you argue that he didn't mean it, that sort of threat is honestly in horrible taste.
The same goes for your other justification, about him not liking Endymion. That is true, however that still makes his treatment of Mamoru extremely unsympathetic. Not only was he fully aware that Mamoru was faithful to Usagi after all, but again he was "bantering" about things like the man being kidnapped, brainwashed, forced to be Beryl's sex slave (and I can not stress it enough, THAT IS RAPE. That point can honestly not be glossed over), and fought to kill when rescuing him. It's difficult to see that as sarcastic good fun, particularly since Emerald supposedly considers brainwashing a special sort of evil, even allying himself briefly with the future senshi to defeat an enemy who used that method. It would be like a person who escaped slavery mocking another person for being enslaved. Or a person campaigning against rape making jokes about how a rape victim probably secretly wanted the sex and thus didn't properly fight the assailant off.
As for you removing Emerald's performing the Anti-Purification, yes he had an idea of what would happen. That was it - an idea. That didn't change change the fact that it was a theory. When Pluto tries to point out that he doesn't know what it will do, he even tells her, "I can guess". And, as noted on the Fridge Horror page, he describes things as "Whenever they interact, [Emerald an Serenity's power] act much like matter and anti-matter, causing painful and explosive magical backlashes." Going off of that description, the logical conclusion sounds like his plan would have lead to an Earth-Shattering Kaboom when Serenity performed Purification.
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