Page based on rank - After having a look at the sandbox, I think the way we already have it is best. First of all, it helps with spoilers - if someone's read the first series only, sure they'll get a couple things for certain cats, but then they won't have to worry about having to wade through a ton of characters and major plot points to find just ones from the first series. Sure, it's a bit iffy on where some cats like Daisy go, but for the most part they're not too difficult to find. It's easier to find them than lumping all the warriors together.
Character count - The number that breaks the wiki is 500K, so people usually split it at 400K. I'm not sure where you're getting 336K - I'm getting around 130K for the main and character pages - but either way, that's a long way off, so we don't need to worry about it yet.
Spoilers - I wouldn't go with everything-except-the-newest-book. Generally I've been spoilering anything pretty major after the first series. It's just so hard to decide for this series, seeing as even names themselves can be considered spoilers.
Dawn of the Clans - I completely agree with this. It's a timeframe more seperated from the other books (whereas the other series are one after another and share characters), and besides, who knows how early they'll sort into different Clans and whatnot, so it would make sense just to list all Dot C characters together.
Edited by Dawnwing
The bottom of the page has the character count listed. The main page is about 240K (from memory, because I'm lazy).
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
Oh, is that what that is? I remember seeing that number on other pages and was wondering. Thanks for letting me know.
I talked to Tommy Tree/Leonard off site, and he prefers the proposed layout. (If you don't believe me, send him a PM.) That puts the vote at 2:1 in favour of the newer layout.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
I like the new way of sorting things that LightFlame proposed. The way we have it now can be confusing and give the wrong idea.
Spoilers, as an issue mentioned by Dawnwing are a valid concern, however I think that as things are now, they only give a false sense of security, since major spoilers are left without spoiler tags for all the series [and I think it's hard to find a way to spoiler all the major events without turning half the page into spoiler cloud].
Edited by TommyTree
Great! I just made a new sandbox, so I'll put the current content on the sandbox, and the new layout on here.
(The sandbox is Warrior Cats Thunderclan, which you can see on the page if you leave the discussion.)
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
Cutmaster-san
Removed Midnight Blue Eyes from Bluestar, Jayfeather, and Cloudtail, since that isn't a trope. If there's an appropriate trope on the Blue Eyes list, feel free to add it.
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Stick of the Fallen
There are three things I wanted to bring up:
1. I'm thinking of having a "General Tropes" folder for each Clan, as they all have special traits that apply to them as a whole. Sound like a good idea?
2. I'm wondering if I should move Purdy from the "Others" page to this page. If not, I think that the spoiler tags about him joining ThunderClan should be removed, as it's not really a spoiler.
3. This idea has been going around in my head for a little while. These character sheets are great if you're reading the recent books and need a reminder of who's who, but they're terribly inaccessible if you're reading the earlier arcs. The first character on the first page spoils a major first arc plot twist.
Seeing as attempting to hide all the plot twists in the series with spoiler tags would make the character sheets nigh-incomprehensible, I had a different idea. What if we made a character sheet exclusively for the first arc, containing no spoilers from the later books and having first arc spoilers under spoiler tags? That way, series newcomers would be able to read through a character sheet without needing to worry about unmarked spoilers from the first arc and the later arcs. As well, we would be able to remove all remaining tagged first arc spoilers on the normal character sheets, as anyone still on the first arc would only be reading the main sheets because they wanted spoilers.
Thoughts on the matter? I'll make a sandbox and put the characters in there, and then we can sift through their tropes until we're ready to put up a presentable character page.
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Okay, I made the Sandbox. Here's the link: Sandbox.Warrior Cats The Original Series Characters
Let the sifting begin.
Edited by Lightflame "Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
Agree with moving Purdy. He's been with ThunderClan for an entire series now.
Hmm... I'm not too fond of the idea of seperate sheets - partly because we'd have to remember each time to add it to both pages if it's relevant - but I do agree that something needs to be done about the spoilers. Too bad this isn't a straightforward, easy-to-spoiler-hide page. Nope, it's gotta have so many characters that where they're listed can be a spoiler, the characters' very names can be spoilers so we don't know what to list them as, and the fandom has a Late-Arrival Spoiler sort of nature. xD Hey, it wouldn't be Warriors if it weren't like that. I guess I'm kind of neutral on the idea. I guess let's see where this sandbox goes.
1. If You have any tropes for that, sure, go ahead. Tribe of the rushing water already has something like that.
2. I agree that he could be moved. We already have the big "major unmarked spoilers" ahead warning, so I don't see why a relatively minor event like him joining ThunderClan should be kept hidden as a spoiler.
3. I agree that the abundance of the spoilers is somewhat of a problem, since, unless one has read every book. Since the series have quite a number of books, this is a problem. I'm not exactly a big fan of Your proposed solution, but it would solve the problem quite well. It could be cumbersome, though.
Looking at the Sandbox page, which was already edited a bit by Lightflame, I see one problem already: how to deal with leaders' names? Leaders have their leader names in spoiler tags, does imply heavily what happens with them. I mean, if we have Rusty/Fireheart/Firestar and Tigerclaw/Tigerstar, just seeing that spoiler tag pretty much says what's going to happen. Not to mention, that just looking at the list of books' titles, one is going to get spoiled on that. Firestar's Quest, Tigerstar and Sasha, khr.
Would there be a page like that for every series?
I intend to work on moving the tropes and spoilering stuff on series subpages, like we discussed in Warrior Cats discussion page some time ago. I'll bring that up there back when I'll have some more time.
Edited by TommyTree
Stick of the Fallen
I was wondering if we should add a new folder for main characters (Firestar, Brambleclaw, Squirrelflight, Leafpool, Jayfeather, Lionblaze, Hollyleaf, Ivypool, and Dovewing). Opinions?
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Nah, they're fine in the series sections, especially since it helps hide spoilers at least a little bit.
Edited by Dawnwing
I like putting in their older names, just thought I'd bring up the topic of how they're formatted. Do you prefer how we have it - "Firestar (Fireheart)"? Or maybe something like "Rusty / Firepaw / Fireheart / Firestar" for everyone's kit/apprentice/whatever names too?
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I don't think kit and apprentice names are necessary. Excluding some like Crookedstar and Brightheart, they all have the same suffix. However, warrior/medicine cat names are "unique" names, so those have merit. We could put a mention in the character profile for cats who had major name changes when they joined a Clan (like Firestar and Sharpclaw), but those who simply had a suffix tacked onto their name (like Hawkfrost and Cloudtail) don't need said mention.
Also, I like the formatting as it is. (Brackets for the warrior names of leaders, slashes for cats with two names, like Scourge and Rock.)
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
Stick of the Fallen
Even though "Bramblestar" is his official name, and we have a spoiler warning, it still feels wrong to just give away a plot twist that comes at the very end of the last book. Could I change all instances of the name "Bramblestar" to "Brambleclaw", then add "Leader Name: Bramblestar" in spoiler tags at the beginning of his character description? That way, we would still have his official name, but we wouldn't be giving away an ending plot twist to unsuspecting readers.
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I think in normal conversation it's fine to change it back to Brambleclaw. The way I do it normally is just use whatever name is relevant to the trope (for example, when talking about something Squirrelflight did as a young apprentice, I'd refer to her as Squirrelpaw.) As far as the name on the character page... I'm not sure. I feel we should list them as whatever their final name was, but then again, he IS only Bramblestar in like the last two pages of TLH and it appears at this point that they're not going to do another story about after TLH so that's all we'll see of him as Bramblestar. Really, I could go either way on that.
Done.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
Stick of the Fallen
Although this applies to all of the main four Clans, I'm posting it on the most frequented of the pages.
Some of the folders for The New Prophecy are pretty tiny, and that arc has some character overlap with the first series, although not to the degree of the third arc and the fourth arc. Do you think we should merge the folders for The Original Series and The New Prophecy, sort of like what I did for Power of Three and Omen of the Stars? It would reduce problems of said character overlap, and we wouldn't be left with folders that tiny.
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I don't think they overlap nearly as much, so I don't see a need to merge it at all. Besides, they'll probably eventually get bigger as we think of tropes to fit NP characters that aren't on the list yet.
Alright, I suppose. I'm rereading the whole series, and I've already found a bunch of stuff in Into the Wild, so I'm sure The New Prophecy will have plenty to offer.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
I vote to remove the Debuts from the profiles, simply because it's hard to say exactly what we should put down. Take Thistleclaw for example.... he was first mentioned by name in Forest of Secrets (which was published first), the first book to be published where he actually appeared was The Rise of Scourge, and his first chronological appearance is Bluestar's Prophecy (which was published later than both of those) which fans would probably not read before the first series. He's not the only character like that, either.
Anyone agree?
Edited by Dawnwing Hide / Show Replies
I agree. Aside from that issue, I don't see much point in having info like that.
What happened to Mapleshade's page? It was there before... I can see why people might think it is too much of a spoiler to say she is from Thunder Clan, but then why can't we just spoiler the last part of every cat's name? After all, what's the point of spoilering Bluestar's death without spiolering Firestar? Sorry, I know I went on a tangent. I ant to know why the Mapleshade page is gone before I make a new one.
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It had been moved to Others for the reason you guessed - it was determined at one point that saying she's from ThunderClan is too spoilery. The only book where she's revealed to be a T-Clan cat is Crookedstar's Promise, whereas she shows up in several OOTS books and her Clan is unknown.
It doesn't really matter to me personally where she is, though I'm actually leaning a bit more toward ThunderClan too. I guess we should just decide how much of a spoiler it really is. Yes, she used to be in ThunderClan - but what does that spoil? It doesn't say anything about her wanting revenge, or why, since those parts are hidden by spoiler tags.
Anyone else have an opinion on the topic?
Well, everything up until then had been pointing to her being a RiverClan cat, and her being from ThunderClan reveals that she's not just grooming Crookedstar to be a clan leader on the side of the dark Forest.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
^ Well; really the only thing implying that she's RiverClan is the fact that she was training Crookedstar. But then if you'd read the main series first, which keeps her Clan ambiguous, you'd know that she was Dark Forest anyway and probably didn't have his best interests at heart. If you read the Super Edition first, you would figure out the Clan by the end, and would know she's ThunderClan for the rest of the main series. I suppose if you read the trope page before reading either, if you happened to remember her when reading the SE, you'd think something's a bit odd (though you can kind of tell that already by the way she behaves), but you still don't know how her being ThunderClan connects to the story. That's still hidden by spoiler tags.
Edited by Dawnwing
Lightflame - if that is the problem, then we should just spoiler Mapleshade's whole page, since most of her tropes(and picture with her evil grin) point out that she is the villain. The fact that she is from ThunderClan isn't very important information, comparing to the fact that she is Evil Mentor, main villain of Crookedstar's Promise, that she is in Dark Forest, all of which info is unspoilered as of now.
Besides, all the Warriors character sheets are filled with non-hidden spoilers for various books, and save for spoilering almost everything(including the names, since they give out important info, too, as pointed out by OP) on them, there's not much that can be done about it.
IMO, we should just put "Major spoilers for all books ahead" warning and don't bother that it spoils unimportant info like that, given that it is hard to make a sensible spoiler policy for so many books.
Stick of the Fallen
This edit war over Bumblestripe has to stop. Yes, Dovewing and Tigerheart may get back together, but until then he is not a Romantic False Lead for Dovewing.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
I agree that the Ashfur section should be neutral, and most of the changes are good ones. There's just a couple things I'd like to talk about:
- Disproportionate Retribution: Needs to be rephrased, I think. The line on there now is a bit confusing, and it almost sounds as if it's pro-Ashfur, making it sound as if he had the worse deal, with the emphasis on "months or years of bottled-in anger and hatred".
- Draco In Leather Pants is now okay, but I think I'd leave out the "borderline mentally ill" - or at least change it to say something like "possibly borderline mentally ill". That's a bit of a mouthful, so maybe a different way of phrasing that too. We don't know for sure that he was, we're not psychiatrists.
- Karma Houdini: What was wrong with what was there? We've got Blackstar as that too (either on the main page or on his character page), and a description of what he did. And other cats, like Darkstripe and Hawkfrost, committed the exact same crime as Ashfur (attempting to kill, but not being successful), and yet they wound up in the Dark Forest. It's not just fans' opinion on him, he's a karma houdini when you compare him to characters that have done the same thing. And it's exactly right when it says "no other justification than 'His only fault was to love too much' " - Yellowfang doesn't explain why, or how loving equates to attempted murder. Even in-universe, Jayfeather considers him a Karma Houdini. Maybe have something like: He was sent to StarClan despite conspiring to kill Firestar, and attempting to murder Hollyleaf, Lionblaze, and Jayfeather, while other characters with the same crime went to the Dark Forest. Also an in-universe example: Jayfeather himself feels that Ashfur should not be in StarClan. Hmm... "despite" sounds a bit strong... and so does the "other characters" bit, though I'd meant it to point out why it's unusual in the series and not just fans' opinions. That might need a bit of work, but I still think we should have this trope in there in some form other than YMMV.
So far, there hasn't been any edit wars regarding Ashfur, so I don't see the issue with leaving it the way it was. As I said, most of the changes are good, making it a bit more neutral. But neutral means that while we can't have it all calling him bad, we can't ignore his crimes, or keep saying "he was insane", "he had mental issues" like the article does now.
Edited by Dawnwing
Okay, I admit that I did a horrible job when I first put the characters into folders. The division by series doesn't make much sense for most of the non-POV characters. Is it for the series they were introduced in? Where they had the most prominence? Why did I put Daisy in the 3rd and 4th series folder? Also, there are characters who remain consistently important across the arcs. Where do they go?
When even the person who made the organization system can't understand it, something's wrong.
As such, I have come up with a new way of organizing the page, based on rank. I have made a sandbox page to show the system I've come up with. Check it out here, and tell me how you like it. If it's received well, I'll replaced this page's content with the sandbox's style. However, I should probably reorganize the warriors folder so that it has the characters in the order they started their apprenticeship or received their warrior name. (Not sure on that. Could use some feedback.) Then, I could apply it to the other Clan pages.
As well, there's another topic concerning the pages. This page is swelling, with a current character count of about 336K. At 400K, pages tend to be split because of the length. (It has to do with wiki coding.) There's nothing wrong with splitting a page, but it would be better to prolong that.
The best way to do it would be to establish a policy on spoilers in the character pages. Currently the spoilering is inconsistent, and spoiler tags contribute quite a lot to the character count. We can't spoiler tag every single spoilery thing because then the sections for many characters would be almost entirely white. However, we could use selective spoilering. Would we remove spoilers entirely? Only spoiler tag things from the latest book? Who knows.
Finally, I will mention the last character page related thing on my mind. Dawn of the Clans takes place at a timeline different from the main series. I was wondering if we could make a Dawn of the Clans character page instead of just putting the tropes on the current character pages. Dawn of the Clans could then have its own spoiler policy and such. We could still have DOTC characters on the main pages, but we would just use the info from the rest of the series and include a link to the Dawn of the Clans page if the reader wanted to learn more.
So, opinions on the things I've mentioned?
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