Ask The Tropers

I'm assuming this is the page in question?

Also, it would only be an edit war if you were the one who originally added them/edited them on the page.

Have you P Med the troper in question?

Yes on both accounts, they haven't replied back or appeared here yet though.

OK I think enough time has passed to have given them a chance to respond but they haven't and since I'm in the clear to revert the changes I'm going to do so. Thanks Arctimon for the clarification.

What "nuance" on Synths, exactly? If I remember correct, Arthur Maxson has decreed that every single one of them is to be destroyed and that his orders are absolute.

And it's been a while since I've played, but I recall that they plan on attacking all ghouls and mutants, even "sane" ones, eventually.

EDIT: Also, the following example writeups seem to be violations of wiki standards:

From Black-and-White Insanity:

Bold emphasis mine; that part is unnecessary Word Cruft.

Also this part of I Did What I Had to Do:

This entire section is unnecessary — "but everybody else is doing it" isn't really relevant to the BOS. Especially given that they are the most militant faction on the East Coast.

Misuse of Noble Bigot. A common trait of "noble" bigots is that they are redeemed at the end. That is specifically difference, for example, between Noble Bigot with a Badge and Bigot with a Badge. On the contrary, there is an entire sidequest involving Maxson (and by extension the rest of the BOS) reaffirming their absolute hatred for Synths even when one of his most loyal men turns out to be one.

I think the only one should be reverted is the Tegan farm mission, because Maxson is explicitly unaware of that.

Even if they aren't currently attacking ghoul settlements or Strong and Hancock, it's heavily implied that their contempt for their very existence is gonna lead to another genocide. That's what tends to happen when power and hatred combine.

I don't see any nuance regarding their stances on the synths.

Yeah, at the very least, I think you're jumping the gun reverting anything when it's only been two days and no consensus.

I was talking about how synths are used as infiltrators for the Institute, on their own they have replaced people (look at Di MA) and the other general dangers of AI, that they aren't destroying synths simply because the BOS is evil and hate them for no reason.

As for ghouls, just because they are racist against them (like most people in Fallout) doesn't mean they want them dead. Their missions explicitly specify ferals, this behavior is not new to Fallout 4 yet ghouls in the Capital Wasteland were still around in 3, they intend to leave as soon as the Institute is defeated and if won in their favor, indeed start the process of leaving. There is no evidence at all in 4 that they have the blood of innocent ghouls on their hands and the wiki should reflect the facts not guesswork. (heck they'll help you out with the ghoul boy) Just because something tends to happen doesn't mean it always happens. Otherwise every town in Fallout that has ghouls living with humans would've had their ghoul population dead by now.

EDIT: Just saw the new edit and new replies, please give me time to respond.

EDIT 2

(Bold emphasis mine; that part is unnecessary Word Cruft.)

OK that makes sense then, I mostly reacting to the changing in wording from memetron. Once everything is worked out and if someone else hasn't already done so, I'll recut it.

(This entire section is unnecessary — "but everybody else is doing it" isn't really relevant to the BOS. Especially given that they are the most militant faction on the East Coast.)

The reason why its relevant is its a showcase of the Values Dissonance Fallout has and counter to the argument that since their racist towards them and are militant they will murder normal ghouls despite no actual evidence that they have done so and they explicitly state otherwise. Other settlements with their own guard have also not done so.

(Misuse of Noble Bigot. A common trait of "noble" bigots is that they are redeemed at the end. That is specifically difference, for example, between Noble Bigot with a Badge and Bigot with a Badge. On the contrary, there is an entire sidequest involving Maxson (and by extension the rest of the BOS) reaffirming their absolute hatred for Synths even when one of his most loyal men turns out to be one.)

While there a few exceptions on the page and includes the term almost, you are correct for a different reason, Arthur and by the extension do not even realize they are being bigoted with their behavior towards synths which is another trope albeit a close one. (To qualify the example should've been focused on ghouls, as their hatred of them comes from ghouls becoming feral and the ECBOS desire to defend people) However, said quest is not contrary towards the point, as Arthur can be convinced to spare Danse despite thinking he is a infiltrator. If Arhur and by extension the ECBOS were simply bigots Arthur would stay true to his convictions and the BOS!Player would be forced to kill Danse no matter what.

(Yeah, at the very least, I think you're jumping the gun reverting anything when it's only been two days and no consensus.)

How long should I have waited? (so I could do better in the future) The only reply I got before I said what I was about to do was telling me it was OK.

This isn't really relevant, since one of the major points of Fallout 4 is that there are quite a number of Synths that just want to be left alone, and the BOS wants them dead, anyway. "But most of them are bad" stops being a defense when you have evidence that a large number of Synths pose no threat to humans — especially once they escape Institute influence.

Again, "but everyone else is doing it" isn't relevant.

At best, the BOS sees normal ghouls as ticking time bombs that should be dealt with before they go feral. At worst, they treat them as sub-humans that need to be killed. The general sentiment seems to be that the ghouls aren't their priority for now, because there are bigger targets like Super Mutants and Synths.

Their reactions to Hancock is proof that most of the BOS is just looking for an excuse to kill any ghoul.

You said it first: facts, not guesswork.

(This isn't really relevant, since one of the major points of Fallout 4 is that there are quite a number of Synths that just want to be left alone, and the BOS wants them dead, anyway. "But most of them are bad" stops being a defense when you have evidence that a large number of Synths pose no threat to humans — especially once they escape Institute influence.)

Yet if (admittedly) the Institute is still around those synths can be "reset" in a crowded town, glitch and go on a killing spree like with the Broken Mask incident and again Di MA has killed and replaced people despite knowing that doesn't help his case.

(Their reactions to Hancock is proof that most of the BOS is just looking for an excuse to kill any ghoul.)

A lot of ifs in those statements and unlike with synths they still don't turn hostile. Look I'm not saying they aren't racist, just that until they actually kill a normal ghoul, they shouldn't be treated like they have already done so.

If the Institute is still around, then they are the problem, not Synths. And even with those examples — those are a minority of cases. The Broken Mask incident in particular is stated to have been caused by an earlier model of Gen 3.

DiMA is irrelevant here. He made his own choices for what he perceived as a greater good; that has nothing to do with him being a Synth and everything to do with his own decisions. Him choosing to kill someone for a personal goal is literally no different than any human being that does the same.

Freed Synths generally wanting to be left alone is not the same as "Freed Synths will never do anything wrong, ever".

It is clearly visible within that video that the BOS members are looking for any excuse to kill ghouls. This isn't "Oh they just don't like ghouls, but they're willing to live with them". This is "We're itching to kill a ghoul and make up a reason why." Trying to pass that off as "well we have no evidence that they have or would attack ghouls" is, IMO, nonsensical. Avoiding speculation is one thing, but ignoring warning signs is another. I have no idea why you added the "unlike Synths" part there, as if that has anything to do with this.

Also, missed these:

Once again, you are the person who said "facts, not guesswork".

Maxson's words are, and I quote: "Allowing Danse to live undermines everything the Brotherhood stands for, yet you insist that he remains alive." and later follows that up with: "Don't mistake my mercy for acceptance. The only reason you are still alive is because of him/her."

The ONLY reason he allows Danse to live is because the Player threatens to leave the BOS and become an enemy. Maxson then mandates that everyone believe that he and the Player killed Danse, and that if any BOS member ever sees Danse again, he will be killed immediately.

I don't think Maxson deserves "points" for not literally killing Danse on the spot, especially when he A) is angry about not doing just that and B) demands to tell his men that he did so in order to uphold the principles he claims the BOS stands for.

See above. They are explicitly portrayed as extremely hostile towards Ghouls and looking for any reason to kill even a sane one. The fact that we haven't directly seen them act on it doesn't make the warning signs any less blatant. Values Dissonance also isn't an excuse; hating Ghouls may be "normal" in the wastes, but the people who do so are almost universally portrayed as ignorant at best and villainous at worst.

I concur with Nubian Satyress nuance is all and good but the removals to me seem valid. The problem is we haven't seen anything in game to show much "positive" aspects of this particuler branch of the brotherhood.

Looks like the swordsmen added the edits before consensus and enough time passing. Wanting to revert until consensus reached. As two against full reversion (three with myself) and one for. Should I revert the edits?

Honestly, I think this discussion has warranted a cleanup of the BOS page (and possibly the other BOS pages) to remove potential BOS apologia. I think we've proven that they're absolutely hostile to ghouls of all types, and "but what if some of them do bad things" is a poor reason to excuse genocide.

@Tuvok I edited back before you and Nubian Satyress got here as stated in the earlier comment, as there was 2 days without anyone else replying, with my only guidance being Arctimon. You can revert the edits since I messed up. (with the exception of Teagen as everyone so far that has mentioned him agrees thats false information) Sorry to ask again but how many days should I have waited? As I can't do better in the future if I don't know the answer.

As for positives for 4's BOS, they do act to defend the normal populace from multiple threats, not just ferals, the Institute and Super Mutants but also groups like the wildlife, Gunners and raiders. This includes but is not limited to, clearing previously dangerous places off screen, establishing roads for safe travel, actively engaging threats in their bases and appearing out of nowhere in the defense of NP Cs. (which is why they are seen helping protect the ghoul boy, this isn't part of the quest itself but their normal programed behavior)This is all due to Arthur holding to some Lyons ideals and wanting to protect innocent people. However, admittedly thanks to the Outcasts rejoining the ranks, agreement on their mission is more mixed. NP Cs go through random support and detest dialogue and while there are named NP Cs in support of Arthur like Haylen, Brandis or Kells there are people like Teagen or Quinlan.

@Nubian Satyress

("but what if some of them do bad things" is a poor reason to excuse genocide.)

You know full and well that wasn't my argument at all and that it was instead you don't have even 1 victim. You keep saying they will do so at the drop of a needle but there is nothing stopping Bestheda from having the BOS murder all of Goodneighbor just like Arcaida or having killing normal ghouls as part of the BOS mission line up or as part of their normal behavior encountering ghoul NP Cs, yet in the game it is only ferals.

EDIT to cover earlier comments,

(If the Institute is still around, then they are the problem, not Synths. And even with those examples — those are a minority of cases. The Broken Mask incident in particular is stated to have been caused by an earlier model of Gen 3.)

They are indeed the main source of the problem but in the meantime synths under their control cause harm to the people they attack. Its also not as rare as you make it, multiple side quests deal with synths hurting someone, including one of your companions, Piper, a recurring annoying event if you do the settlement builder is a synth that joins and then tries to kill your villagers some time later and random events include synth attacks, with a particularly memorable one catching one about to kill the original human and having figure out who is the real person.

(IMO, nonsensical. Avoiding speculation is one thing, but ignoring warning signs is another. I have no idea why you added the "unlike Synths" part there, as if that has anything to do with this.)

IMO its nonsensical to say someone has done something that they haven't actually done yet. I included synths because it was a comparison,all synths are on the chopping block and you have missions reflecting that, while with ghouls it has only been ferals.

(The ONLY reason he allows Danse to live is because the Player threatens to leave the BOS and become an enemy.)

That is not correct, its actually one of the possible choices that convinces him, another choice that works is to point out how many BOS lives Danse have saved.

Actually, no I don't know that. You've repeatedly made the argument "but Synths/Ghouls are bad sometimes" as a justification of the BOS's actions/beliefs.

So your argument here is: "Since the BOS hasn't actually committed genocide against ghouls yet, there's actually no evidence to suggest they'd kill non-feral ghouls."

Despite the video shown where a huge number of BOS soldiers literally call a ghoul companion "It" repeatedly and express an eager desire to kill him just for being a ghoul.

Also, remember: "facts, not guesswork".

To repeat what I said earlier: "Most Synths wanting to be left alone =/= No Synth anywhere will never do anything bad."

Most of the incidents you mention here are the fault of the Institute, NOT Synths.

Sorry, but if I walk into a group of white supremacists and they express an eager desire to kill me simply because of my skin color, I'm not going to assume they're perfectly harmless just because nobody has reported a body yet.

No, Maxson still only spares him because the Player won't back down; telling Maxson how many people Danse has saved does not convince him Danse should be spared. No matter what option you pick, Maxson still says that keeping Danse alive "undermines everything the Brotherhood stands for", tells Danse that he will be killed if the BOS sees him again, that "The only reason you're alive is because of him/her".

Says the person doing guesswork.

Its not

"Since the BOS hasn't actually committed genocide against ghouls yet, there's actually no evidence to suggest they'd kill non-feral ghouls."

Its

"Since the BOS hasn't actually committed genocide against ghouls yet, they shouldn't be recorded that they have already done so."

And as I countered but was ignored, that video has a lot of ifs in their statements, a condition (in this case attacking someone or turning feral) to be met before they in turn become violent. There is a simple way to prove me wrong, find one victim that they have attacked. That isn't asking for much and if you are right should be very easy for you to find considering how they treat synths. Heck it doesn't even have to be a death, just a unprovoked attack would suffice.

Even if that were true, your "Then how come all the ghouls aren't dead" argument is no less guesswork.

Whether or they have or not is irrelevant. The fact remains that they *want* to. They are flat out *eager* for any excuse to do it.

Again, not the point. Again, if a bunch of KKK members are sitting around threatening me and just asking for an excuse to kill me, whether or not we can literally prove they've already killed another black person is irrelevant. Nobody in their right mind is going to treat them as harmless.

Do we need to get a Mod in here to weigh in? Seems like this is going around and around in circles.

At this point, I want to take a break. You're right — I feel like I've more than stated my case by now.

(To repeat what I said earlier: "Most Synths wanting to be left alone =/= No Synth anywhere will never do anything bad.")

Didn't say anything regarding the lone synths in my recent replies to you. (Heck I even sited a example of the opposite Danse doing something good)

(Most of the incidents you mention here are the fault of the Institute, NOT Synths.)

Are you seriously going to ignore their active participation? Its not a Institute scientist directly killing your settlers. What happened to "Most Synths wanting to be left alone =/= No Synth anywhere will never do anything bad"?

(Sorry, but if I walk into a group of white supremacists and they express an eager desire to kill me simply because of my skin color, I'm not going to assume they're perfectly harmless just because nobody has reported a body yet.)

False equivalency, the white supremacists will kill you simply because they hate you and you are in no danger of losing control of your body and becoming a danger to others against your will.

(No, Maxson still only spares him because the Player won't back down; telling Maxson how many people Danse has saved does not convince him Danse should be spared.)

It does has it is one of the options that succeeds in keeping Danse alive, other options can and will lead to Danse's death.

(Whether or they have or not is irrelevant.)

It is entirely relevant, heck its what this argument about, have they have or not done something.

(Again, not the point. Again, if a bunch of KKK members are sitting around threatening me and just asking for an excuse to kill me, whether or not we can literally prove they've already killed another black person is irrelevant. Nobody in their right mind is going to treat them as harmless.)

See above, one its a false equivalency and two there is a specific condition you're choosing to ignore, becoming feral. Its if x happens then I will do y, not you are z so I will do y.

@Minister Of Sinister

Yeah, though I do agree with Nubian Satyress that we need to take a break. After all tomorrow is Christmas. I'll stop replying till the 26th.

Okay, will someone else explain to Swordsman everything that's wrong with the argument

"the white supremacists will kill you simply because they hate you and you are in no danger of losing control of your body and becoming a danger to others against your will."

I mean, everything else they said is just as "incorrect", but that one is really chafing my hide.

I mean yeah, that's probably not a great take (I literally know nothing about Fallout so I have no way to know what a ghoul is or how dangerous they might be also please don't try and explain it to me I don't need to know I'm not involved), but it's Christmas ya'll, come back in a day with a clear head and work it out then.

Ghouls in the Fallout universe are humans that have been exposed to massive amounts of radiation. Ghouls differ from humans in that they look like their skin is melted and that they can live for centuries.

Every now and then, Ghouls can turn feral, meaning they'll attack anything on sight and become impossible to reason with. The reason the Brotherhood have such contempt for non-feral ghouls is because they are afraid of them going feral.

However, turning feral isn't that common an occurrence. Throughout the games, you'll encounter several ghouls who have lived centuries without turning. There are also settlements where humans and ghouls co-exist, and they aren't really concerned about them turning. This means that the Brotherhood's fears about non-ferals turning is overblown and doesn't justify their bigotry.

Synths kill people for one or two reasons. Either the Institute flips a switch and turns them into kill bots, or individual synths just happen to like killing people. The former can be fixed by destroying the Institute, as 3/4 of the factions do. The latter is not a trait inherent to all synths.

In Fallout 4, a good chunk of the human population are raiders who attack on sight and can't reasoned with. Whenever your settlements are being attacked, it's very likely that human raiders are responsible. A synth deciding to attack humans (without input from the Institute) is fundamentally no different from a human deciding to attack other humans.

Regardless, the Brotherhood believes that only bad humans should be killed, but believe that all Synths should be killed with no exception. Maxson makes this very clear.

When you defend Danse by citing all the things he's accomplished in the Brotherhood, Maxson dismisses it because it's "just a means for infiltration." No matter how good a Synth is, Maxson still believes they should be terminated.

When Maxson explains the necessity of destroying synths, he doesn't say something along the lines of "We know the Institute is the real threat, but until we can defeat them, we have to take precautions by eliminating any synth we run into." Instead, he says that synths should be exterminated because they never should have existed to begin with.

You run into a lot of good/neutral synths in the wasteland who have no intention of harming the innocent, such as Curie, Nick, Sturgess, Magnolia and all the residents of Far Harbor. In the eyes of the Brotherhood, their lives are a crime against nature and must be ended, even if the Institute ends up being destroyed.

TL;DR

1) Sane ghouls becoming feral is uncommon, but blown out of proportion to justify fear and hatred against them.

2) Destroying the Institute means destroying any latent kill switches in Synths.

3) Synths all have their own individual personalities, same as humans. Some are want to do good, some are evil.

4) The Brotherhood recognizes that groups of humans can do bad things, but that it isn't a reflection of humans as a whole. They don't reserve the same clemency for ghouls and synths.

The argument that Brotherhood is justified in its genocidal desires on the basis that ghouls and synths might go bad is ridiculous.

How long should I have waited? (so I could do better in the future) The only reply I got before I said what I was about to do was telling me it was OK.

Actually you did not get a reply saying it's ok, a suggestion is not an ok. You got one answer before making the change and it was not a confirmation. An honest mistake to make if your a bit overeager. However, waiting for more input would seem parr the course as two days without confirmation then making a change seems rushed. Changes the majority seem to disagree with. Understandably you may feel strongly regarding this, and we seem to be on an agree to disagree situation. But as general consensus seem to disagree with you. I recommend reverting to the original with some amendments if needed may be the way to go.

@Benbeasted

(The argument that Brotherhood is justified in its genocidal desires on the basis that ghouls and synths might go bad is ridiculous.)

That isn't my argument though, I have even agreed before that they are racist. Instead my two points I am trying and failing to convey are, A The BOS are like you yourself have noted are acting out of fear for others getting hurt, not out of malice and B that since the BOS have not even attacked one sane ghoul, let alone forming a plan for a sane ghoul purge like they have done with synths, the record shouldn't say that they already have. Thier racist behavior towards sane ghouls isn't even new, it was very much present in Fallout 3.

@Tuvok

As stated in my earlier reply to you, with the exception of Teagen,(which when discussed we have agreed on) I am fine with reverting the page. If someone hasn't reverted it by now, I will do what you suggest later today. (again with the exception of Teagen) What amount of time do you suggest is long enough? A week maybe?

Before I go I would like to get everyone's opinion on the other changes memetron made we haven't gotten to.

1. The claim that the ECBOS has completely regressed to the point of becoming just like the WCBOS and as such claims the ECBOS does the same things the WCBOS does. (namely references to Arthur still holding some of Lyons' changes and recruiting wastelanders were deleted) As a reminder the WCBOS limits its members to those born in the BOS, (and has become homophobic as a result) are tech hoarders to the point of stealing tech from other people and do not care at all about protecting wastelanders, they rather stay in their bunker and only intervene when they are threatened as well. Arthur's faction on the other hand recruits from outsiders, only grabs tech from abandoned buildings and actively destroys the Institute instead of keeping their tech and finally came from the Capital Wasteland with the express purpose of removing threats to the common wastelander.

2. The ECBOS are not neutral (as in the morality alignment)

3. Arthur does not qualify as the Big Good for a BOS player, unlike the other faction leaders like Father for their factions.

4. Arthur's unique Gatling gun which he uses as his main weapon does not qualify for Gatling Good.

OK the page is mostly reverted as suggested.

The point you are missing is that bigots always justify their hatred of others out of fear. For the Nazis, it was the "Jewish Problem". For White Supremacists, it's "Black savagery/violence". For Xenophobes, it's "Immigrants are rapists and job-stealers".

That is the exact problem with your argument of "white supremacists will kill you because they hate you, and you are in no danger of losing control of your body and becoming a danger to others against your will".

Except THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WHITE SUPREMACISTS BELIEVE ABOUT ME (a black person). They literally believe that Black people are savages and that we are compelled to be dangers to others by our very nature.

Again, you are either missing the point or obfuscating it. The argument is not "The BOS have already killed lots of Ghouls". The argument is "the BOS WANT to kill lots of Ghouls". And that is objectively true. They flat out do.

Now, to address the rest of your points.

Am I supposed to blame a bullet for killing someone I love, or the person who aimed and shot the bullet? That's not a Synth "doing something bad". That's the Institute USING a Synth to do it.

So what? Maxson STILL says that the Player is the only reason he keeps Danse alive. It has nothing to do with him being swayed by Danse's accomplishments.

No it isn't relevant. The problem here is you attempting to frame this as a binary "either they've killed ghouls or they haven't" argument, with ZERO nuance. You keep trying to obscure the fact that the BOS members WANT to kill all of the ghouls, including the sane ones. Whether they have DONE IT YET is irrelevant. All they need (and want) is an excuse.

Since I don't think The Swordsman is going to budge on their arguments, is anyone else here in favor of doing a cleanup sweep of the Fallout BOS character page to check for BOS apologia? I get the feeling it's needed. For example:

"Good Is Not Nice" is a massive stretch here. At best, the BOS are Knights Templar, not "good". We shouldn't be call a genocidal militant faction "Good", no matter how much protection they offer.

And this:

"Genocide has a point". Do I need to say more?

A. "They're going to destroy us if we don't destroy them first" is a common rhetoric used by historical groups in order to justify genocide. We don't accept that excuse in real life, we shouldn't in fiction under similar circumstances.

B. Nobody's saying that they should be treated as though they've already begun attacking ghouls. They should be treated as though they're about to. They're basically frothing at the mouth to slaughter them, they're only waiting for someone (Maxson) to call the shot.

If your neighbor keeps calling you in the middle of the night, claiming he wants to murder you, do you let it be because he's never murdered anyone before, or do you call the police and get everything sorted out before things become bad?

C. If anything, that makes the Maxson's chapter even less justified. Maxson's chapter is very different from Lyon's chapter because he dismissed teachings he deemed irrelevant. Yet, he chose to keep bigotry.

@Nubian Satyress

(The point you are missing is that bigots always justify their hatred of others out of fear. For the Nazis, it was the "Jewish Problem". For White Supremacists, it's "Black savagery/violence". For Xenophobes, it's "Immigrants are rapists and job-stealers".)

And what you are missing is those reasonings is just a facade, a lie, there is no truth the claim and they are not honestly afraid of you. Ghouls DO have have a chance of becoming mindless zombies.

(Again, you are either missing the point or obfuscating it. The argument is not "The BOS have already killed lots of Ghouls". The argument is "the BOS WANT to kill lots of Ghouls". And that is objectively true. They flat out do.)

It objectively true that they hate ghouls. That is not the same thing. Actions speak LOUDER than words.

(Am I supposed to blame a bullet for killing someone I love, or the person who aimed and shot the bullet? That's not a Synth "doing something bad". That's the Institute USING a Synth to do it.)

Except the rare case one glitches up, they have free will, the reset code just knocks them out. So it depends, do you blame the solider conscripted to fight for a evil country?

(No it isn't relevant. The problem here is you attempting to frame this as a binary "either they've killed ghouls or they haven't" argument, with ZERO nuance. You keep trying to obscure the fact that the BOS members WANT to kill all of the ghouls, including the sane ones. Whether they have DONE IT YET is irrelevant. All they need (and want) is an excuse.)

The changes we are discussing IS a binary statement, memetron did not put "they so far have only killed feral ghouls but it is possible they will kill sane ghouls in the future." See earlier for my response to the rest.

(Since I don't think The Swordsman is going to budge on their arguments, is anyone else here in favor of doing a cleanup sweep of the Fallout BOS character page to check for BOS apologia?)

Its not like you care for my input anyways considering this very statement but if a mod agrees and two others like Tuvok and Benbeasted are involved I see no problem with it.

@Benbeasted

A: In real life their justifications don't have any truth to them (the jews were no actual threat to the Nazis) and in Fallout its a humanity back the brink scenario.

B: I'm going off memetron's wording.

Thanks for telling me that the number of Black people who have been, and still are, being killed under the pretense of being "violent" is just a "facade".

Hate speech that supports literal genocide is completely harmless. Gotcha.

Synths under Institute control literally do not have free will once their kill orders are given. That's entire problem. Comparing them to soldiers is nonsense.

What Memetron wrote was:

All of this is actively true. Eradicating non-feral ghouls IS a goal. They flat out tell you how much they want to do it. They are drooling over it.

Hell, if anything, you claiming Memetron stated they've "already done it" is the falsehood here. He said it's their goal or mission. Which is factually true.

As Benbeasted stated, the BOS doesn't care if there are any harmless or neutral Synth. They want Synth dead just because they exist. Maxson is very clear about that. He doesn't care how good a Synth is. The very fact that it exists at all is disgusting to him.

Benbeasted was also right about Ghouls: most non-feral Ghouls we know have lived for literal centuries and have not gone feral. Hell, it took Maxson 10 years to go from small child to genocidal militant, so statistically speaking, humans are more likely to turn into threats than a sentient Ghoul is.

Violence is not the beginning of prejudice. It's the end stage. Harmful words (antilocution), according to Allport's stages of prejudice, is merely the first stage.

The reason forums ban hate speech isn't to stop people's sensibilities from being offended. It's because hate speech, by nature, incites hatred against a perceived other, which then evolves into violence.

Again, if your neighbor claims he genuinely wants to murder you, don't wait for him to do it.

When the Institute is destroyed, the Brotherhood's justifications against the synths won't have any truth to them because the standard synth without Institute intervention is no actual threat to humans. Without the Institute's killswitch, the synths collectively stop being a threat. Yet, the Brotherhood still holds it paramount to destroy synths on principle.

@Nubian Satyress

(Thanks for telling me that the number of Black people who have been, and still are, being killed under the pretense of being "violent" is just a "facade". Hate speech that supports literal genocide is completely harmless. Gotcha.)

Why are you twisting my words? I was saying they were lying about their reasoning for killing and that what they say have NO actual merit, NOT that people were not getting killed. Black people are NOT naturally violent.

(Synths under Institute control literally do not have free will once their kill orders are given. That's entire problem. Comparing them to soldiers is nonsense.)

Explain Mayor Mc Donough then, a synth agent, while loyal that was so full of himself and incompetent, the Institute thought it was more cost effective to let him run free, certain he would accidentally out himself and get himself killed because of his personality.

(This is actively true. Eradicating non-feral ghouls IS a goal. They flat out tell you how much they want to do it. They are drooling over it.)

That is actively untrue, there is no mission in the entire game where you kill a sane ghoul. And the stated goal is destroy the Institute and then leave, which they indeed begin to do once the Institute is destroyed, regardless of who actually defeats them.

(most non-feral Ghouls we know have lived for literal centuries and have not gone feral.)

You state that as if we know when every feral enemy (of which there are a lot of) turned and think it was upon transformation instead of later.

@Benbeasted

(Again, if your neighbor claims he genuinely wants to murder you, don't wait for him to do it.)

It was more akin to my neighbor saying he'll murder me if I harm his brother but I will concede the entire debate to you. I want to thank you, Tuvok and War Jay 77 for your calm and patient responses. I'll wait to see if Tuvok or someone else gives me a solid waiting time period suggestion but other than that I think this matter is settled.

The point remains that White Supremacists believe that. It doesn't matter if it's true or not. It's

Explain what? Here is what the Institute specifically says about M7-62.

They explicitly state that M7-62 was programmed to mimic the real Mayor, but later grew to have self-awareness. The reason the Institute considers him a lost cause is because of his physique. They flat out state that they have no purpose for him due his physique being irreversible.

You twisted the words "goal" and "mission" to be about military objectives. The fact that they currently do not have an active military mission with the goal of eradicating sapient Ghouls does not change the fact that the BOS soldiers' goal is to eradicate the Ghouls. They are waiting to do it.

Your argument just made was "if we don't see an active mission to kill Ghouls, then that means they will not kill Ghouls".

To turn that around, if most sapient Ghouls we know stay sapient for centuries, then we have no reason to believe that most feral Ghouls were once sapient.

You can't cling to empirical data one second and then dismiss it when it gets inconvenient.

I noticed this little snipe.

Believe me, I've been very calm and patient here.

Since this query isn’t going anywhere productive, I’m going to go ahead and lock this.