Ask The Tropers

[comment removed because I sensed a flame bait I want no part of. I suggest making a Forum thread to not clutter the ATT, there was a similar one for One Piece]

Edited by Amonimus TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Kris is not implied to be non-binary. Kris is non-binary. the use of they/them pronouns by lifelong friends is more than enough evidence. to treat Kris otherwise is, intentionally or not, erasure. non-binary is not Ambiguous Gender Identity and by putting them under Ambiguous Gender it's a disguised version of the same old argument that genitals are important and the debate isn't settled until they're confirmed.

Viewer Gender Confusion is different, because it's an audience reaction rather than intentional in the work, and viewers projecting themselves onto Kris would fall under that as well (Kris is explicitly a different character than the player and has their own personality independent of player choice). but there is so little non-binary representation in mainstream works and i will fight (metaphorically and within the rules) to see it acknowledged as such.

I'm not sure that "they/them" alone makes them non-binary.

Assuming I'm not remembering wrong, I recall that Undertale's protagonist, Frisk, was also left ambiguous with they/them pronouns with the express intent of letting the audience project onto them however they wish. I'd assume Deltarune is doing the same unless there's specific evidence to the contrary.

Edited by sgamer82

^^ Are you sure that nonbinary people are the only ones who ever use "they/them" pronouns? Surely there must be some man or woman out there who uses they/them pronouns. And if there is just one, then that means we can't make assumptions on pronouns alone.

Just keep in mind that whether this particular person is NB or not is in no way determined, or affected, by how little NB representation there is in mainstream works.

Edited by MichaelKatsuro

↑↑↑↑ Hmm, there is a dedicated cleanup thread for Undertale and Deltarune, so I or someone else can also try asking there; I just thought it'd be worth asking about here because, as mentioned before, the argument's resulted in at least one borderline edit war over the matter and this is seems to be the usual place for bringing up and resolving those.

Edited by bowserbros Be kind.

^^ There are, yes. But there are also people who use he/him pronouns and aren't men^note or she/her and aren't women, or it/its and aren't inanimate objects, and we aren't applying this same standard to Goku and Sora and Link and so forth.

Edited by wingedcatgirl Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.

^ That's true, of course. I just don't think we should explicitly say "they/them pronouns prove they're NB" if that's not the case.

Didn't Toby Fox correct someone who called Kris "he" during a livestream or something? Their pronouns seem quite canon even if they lack a specific gender identity.

Also yes pronouns don't always equal gender but in this case, what I've gathered from fandom osmosis is that Kris isn’t a boy or a girl, nor are they the player's gender.

Edited by mightymewtron I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

"nor are they the player's gender"

I think this is the relevant point. Kris is meant to be a specific subversion of a Featureless Protagonist, and the fact they have their own life (and some of the things the player can have them do horrifies them) is an important plot point. They use they/them because those are the pronouns that they want to use.

While it's certainly possible for someone to use they/them but not consider themselves nonbinary^note Indeed, the nearest I've seen would be demi-girls/boys and other nonbinary folk who still align themselves with either end of the gender spectrum or genderfluid people who sometimes present as their assigned gender; and both groups are firmly under the nonbinary umbrella (unless they specifically wish not to be), it would be a very unusual situation (even more so than people using she/her or he/him pronouns that don't align with their gender, since they/them or neopronouns are not what someone would typically use and there aren't many cases where someone is going to make a point about their gender while identifying with their AGAB). To the point, if I'm honest, it feels like an argument that's hard to refute for how absurd it is (along the lines of "what if chocolate tastes awful to most people, but we block out the memory?).

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer

^^ I also remember reading that Toby quickly corrected a merch description on Fangamer when it referred to Kris as "He".

People do use they/them even if they aren't non-binary, but when I see the "What gender is Kris?" discourse pop up, it's less, "Is Kris non-binary or agender?" and more "Is Kris using they/them a case of Gender Neutral Writing so that you can project onto them?". The latter has already been Jossed in canon because Kris has been established as a separate character, whose family and childhood friend refer to as they/them. While their actual gender identity hasn't been stated, I feel like Ambiguous Gender Identity wouldn't fit because then every character in the game would count.

Edited by RainbowPumpqueen Sandbox help wanted.

Yeah, speaking as someone active on the Undertale cleanup, Deltarune is a lot less ambigious about the distinction between the player and Kris than Undertale is with the player and Frisk. It's made clear that Kris is not a player insert and that the player is instead actively controlling them a la Demonic Possession.

They're established to be their own character, not an avatar of the player. With that being the case, the fact that everyone they know calls them they/them and their parents call them "my child" instead of "my son/daughter" (especially since they don't refer to Kris's brother gender neutrally) is a very strong implication that Kris is nonbinary. I mean it's theoretically possible that they're a boy or girl who prefers they/them pronouns and doesn't want to be refered to by their gender in any way... but when you hear hooves, its better to think horses instead of zebras.

Edited by Orbiting

I'm of the opinion that Kris should be treated as a case of Ambiguous Gender. During the stream, Toby said "Kris cannot reach it. They're stuck." That doesn't really strike me as a "correction" or confirming anything, especially since it isn't really mentioned beyond that. Is he specifying that Kris is non-binary? Is he or the characters in-universe just being ambiguous with Kris's gender? Who knows?

With the Fandom-Enraging Misconception trope, looking back on it, the blank slate part can apply since it's made pretty clear that Kris is separate from the player with his own personality.

Edited by Super_Weegee

Regarding non-NB people using "they/them" pronouns, I've occasionally done it for privacy reasons when I don't feel comfortable going by my true ones. I don't know of anyone who does it exclusively at the expense of binary pronouns, but it does indeed happen sometimes.

Now in this case I do believe/headcanon based on what we know from the game that Kris is probably some kind of nonbinary, and would be confident about it were it not for the unusual situations regarding Frisk and Chara in the previous game. That they use "they/them" pronouns (this specific hill, I am confident enough to die upon) would not be proof of being NB or some other gender by its lonesome. Relatedly see the past discourse over Yamato's pronouns vs gender identity in One Piece. And yeah, actually watching that clip for myself, while it's difficult to tell tone or intent with TTS, it doesn't seem like Toby is being nearly as aggressive with the pronoun correction as the entry made it appear. Which makes it of limited value as a citation in terms of adding any new insight.

I'm indifferent when it comes to removing that Fandom-Enraging Misconception entry altogether, and wouldn't miss the other entry listed under it right now about King and Queen. As in my experience, neither one has been the kind of hot-button issue the trope usually describes? Typically it's for matters of a fairly unified in-group correcting an aggressively ignorant out-group, not for when different camps within the in-group have significant disagreement with one another (which is what tends to drive Edit Wars), or when a significant portion of the in-group is blasé about the out-group's error (in many cases I have seen individuals in the same space referring to Kris with either they/them or gendered pronouns and simply ignoring each other).

At best I'm fine with a massively simplified version that just states that "using 'he/him' or 'she/her' pronouns on Kris instead of 'they/them' will get a lot of pushback in some places, since only the latter ones are used directly in-game", and sidestep the exact reasons why until we get an explicit answer on that matter.

Edited by AlleyOop

^ if pronouns are not enough to confirm gender, every character that uses he/him or she/her should be held to the same standard until and unless their gender identity is explicitly confirmed in the work.

is that ridiculous? yes. it's equally ridiculous to say they/them pronouns aren't enough when they're used by the character's actual mother. "they/them" pronouns alone aren't enough, but there's context here, and the context - their friends and family using their preferred pronouns - makes it clear they are in fact non-binary.

e: in summary, holding they/them to a different standard than he/him or she/her is incorrect at best and actively enbyphobic at worst.

Edited by ChloeJessica

As I just said, in most cases that should be enough, but the meta aspect (that even if the character isn't literally you or a blank slate, they are still meant to be featureless enough for you to relate to them, particularly for the purpose of subversion), which Toby has used twice, is the main reason it's even possible to consider ambiguous.

Fine with blockading people from putting Ambiguous Gender or Ambiguous Gender Identity on the character page for that reason, as Toby Fox hasn't explicitly confirmed that they are ambiguous on purpose and thus it wouldn't be appropriate. But at the same time due to the precedents set by the thematic prequel, I'd also not go so far as to cover it in "yes, Kris is absolutely, definitely, and indisputably nonbinary" either (and besides, being nonbinary by itself doesn't qualify for any specific tropes anyway, not anymore).

v My bad, should've been clearer too.

Edited by AlleyOop

^ then i badly misunderstood what you said, and i apologize.

I disagree that the Fandom-Enraging Misconception entry isn't a hot button issue. I see a new "Stop saying Kris matches the player gender" tweet every damn day and people do get super angry about it, and it's far from a Vocal Minority. Now the point that the entire fandom doesn't know it, as some fans might use he or she for Kris, that's a better point.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

I could have sworn at one point Susie called Kris a "scared little boy" in Chapter 1 in reference to how they always have Toriel leading them by the hand, but given she was in full out Bullying mode when she said that that might not matter. In fact it might lend credence to the nonbinary idea.

^ I’m remembering it as “scared little kid”, actually.

And while Kris isn’t stated to be nonbinary, they explicitly use they/them only (same for Frisk). There’s no evidence in the game for or against any particular gender identity, but all terms used to relate to Kris are neutral. “Implied nonbinary” is a good way to describe them for now.

Edited by PurpleEyedGuma

^ again, there is evidence. we don't treat he/him or she/her pronouns this way. it's not right for they/them pronouns to be treated differently. Kris is not implied non-binary. they are just non-binary.

I think the problem is this assumption that they would have to be explicitly stated as "nonbinary," when the truth is "nonbinary" just means they aren't squarely a boy or a girl, which would be the case if everybody only uses gender-neutral terms and doesn't use any gendered words for them — and indeed that does seem to be the case. It's a Non-Heteronormative Society so they may not need to outright say "Kris is nonbinary" in-universe.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

A gender-neutral pronoun indicates, by its use, that a character's gender is unknown, uncertain, hidden, ambiguous, or nonbinary. In other cases, a writer can use such pronouns to make the point that a character's gender is unimportant or irrelevant to the story.

As such, I think using gender-neutral pronouns alone to make an iron-clad rule that a character identifies as NB is a bit of an overreach, because there are other reasons to use them.

As mightymewtron indicated, "nonbinary" simply means "not squarely a boy or a girl," so I would refer to Kris as "nonbinary" if I were pressed, but unless the matter was extremely relevant I would just write about them in a gender-neutral manner without making such designations. Outside of discussing their gender status itself, there's rarely much functional difference between talking about a character whose gender is unknown, and a character who doesn't identify as either gender.

^ i agree, and agreed above already, that they/them pronouns alone are not enough to consider someone non-binary. the additional evidence in this case is that the character's friends and family, people who would know them well, go out of their way to use they/them and otherwise gender neutral terms when referring to them. that is sufficient evidence for they/them just as it would be for he/him or she/her. in this instance it is explicitly not being used to represent ambiguous or neutral gender.

Nonbinary is a far reaching term, and Kris falls under it regardless. Everyone refers to Kris as "they/them", even their own mother, and they don't present either as masculine or feminine. That's enough to fall into the nonbinary spectrum. If Kris were a self-insert, I would be more swayed toward being a straight case of Ambiguous Gender, but Kris is a subversion of a self-insert, being their own person with their own life, and yet they are referred to as they/them.

Edited by SatoshiBakura

Haven't played the game, but with the evidence presented I feel safe to agree with Kris being nonbinary.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I think it's safe to assume that Kris is non-binary. The game doesn't actually let you name them like you could name Frisk in Undertale (even if that was a bit of a misdirection), plus the other narrative elements make it clear that Kris is not meant to be a cipher for the player like Frisk was.

Edited by Karxrida If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Chloe Jessica: I was speaking more in general terms and not Kris in particular. I don't keep up with games that I'm not currently playing at any given moment, so what I know about Deltarune could fit into the period at the end of this sentence. So I'm not inclined to make definitive statements on the game one way or another.

In this specific case, going solely off the arguments presented in this thread, I think it's perfectly reasonable to consider Kris an NB character.

Should we ping thetragicfoolbus to let them know of our discussion? They seem to be the most involved in being against Kris being nb, as well as deleting examples without reasoning.

Considering that they were also one of the participants in the aforementioned borderline edit war, maybe.

Be kind.