Fire Emblem

Garon was a conqueror long before the Hoshido/Nohr war started even the first time.

Here's my suggestion for improvng the game: cut Revelations entirely, make the game about choosing good family/evil family and MAKE EACH SIDE DESERVE THEIR ROLE.

The Hoshidans are peaceniks who try to study war no more but aren't stupid about letting aggressive foreign governments take an inch lest they go for the mile. The princes and princesses of Hoshido don't need to be changed too much, but Mikoto is the true queen of the country while Sumeragi is from a branch family.

The Nohrians by contrast could be the ACTUAL villains of this whole thing, and when you side with them you're actually one of the bad guys. The Nohrian siblings love you unconditionally and their closeness is a major redeeming virtue compared to the Hoshidan standoffishness, but Xander and Leo are actively plotting to steal the throne (and Leo has plans to usurp Xander if Xander is less than a perfect king), Camilla is literally Ax-Crazy (so unchanged) and Elise's selfishness is cranked up so she really can't care about people or her country outside of her immediate circle.

Azura's plot relevance goes away but her musical powers remain. Her family line existed to counter the dragon shifters that periodically pop up in history, Garon conceived her to counter you, and let up on guarding her when he stole you away.

The Awakening characters are from a Future Past timeline where Lucina died. Rather than travel in time the surviving children leapt into the Outrealms and only these three have found one another.

The final boss of the games is the Dusk Dragon for Birthright and the Dawn Dragon for Conquest—each kingdom's guardian deity come to life to prevent their opposite's final victory and to avenge the fallen bloodline. The Yato only has two empowered forms, and you get it when you recieive the blessing of your kingdom's dragon.

I don't mind explicit good vs. evil narratives, but the game has to SELL that. This way it does.

If you value challenge, be very careful about skill buying. It's the kind of thing that's overpowered enough to trivialize Lunatic Conquest, never mind Birthright.

I'll confess that a part of me balks at this discussion, mostly because even though I agree that the writing of Fates is rather flawed, I'm worried in engaging in Ron the Death Eater and Draco in Leather Pants.

The story should absolutely be greyer, but...well, there is my worry of making Hoshido too unsympathetic, and well...if I'm being honest, your description of Hoshido make them come off as worse, though that might be because you aren't really going into what evil actions Nohr should commit.

And, of course, there's the issue of Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy - why should I play either Birthright or Conquest if both sides are behaving awfully and need to have some sense beat into them?

Hoshido and Nohr should both be kingdoms that the player could believably choose and reject. So I suppose my question is this - what is Corrin's reaction to the problems on both sides?

I'm sorry, but I think I hated just about everything about that.

edited 24th Feb '17 9:03:21 AM by KarkatTheDalek

I'm against cutting Revelations if only because it has my favorite Final Boss of all times, and it would also deprive me of some of my favorite cross-culture supports.

Though you know what would've been interesting? If Anankos's final form in Revelations was the same one they used in Heirs of Fate. Would've been interesting if he had a chance to say some final words.

I agree.

The game is about choosing Loyalty to your adoptive family or living up to your Birthright of your biological family.

Not Good or Evil. It was never suggested to be as such.

edited 24th Feb '17 9:17:23 AM by EpicBleye

My goal is to make both siding with Nohr and hiding with Hoshido have consequences, and moments where the player goes, "...This might have been the wrong choice." I don't want the player to feel like I did during the first playtrough of Birthright and Conquest; on the former path, there was absolutely no reason not to go with Hoshido. You were defending a good, morally upstanding kingdom against a dark, aggressive one, and felt good about it (other than having to face your siblings, but that was a minor thing). On the Conquest path, you were mercilessly striking down that same good kingdom for flimsy reasons, with none of the morally upstanding characters doing anything at all about changing it. I saw the Birthright path as essentially the "right" (non-selfish) choice. My rewrite to make Hoshido darker would alleviate a lot of that.

Now, I don't mean to say that both kingdoms don't have good/redeeming features. Just that it's not so simple as "Hoshido is the bright and sunny good kingdom just trying to defend itself from crazy, expansionist Nohr who wants to destroy their way of life" the way it is currently.

In my rewrite, Hoshido would be peaceful and idyllic on the surface, but a lot of its populace would be naive and/or casually xenophobic due to their isolation and Mikoto's strong unwillingness to reach out to Nohr. They just aren't interested in changing their way of life, as it's worked for them for hundreds of years, but in that is a bad stagnation. I'd have the Hoshidan characters casually assume that all Nohrians are bloodthirsty savages out for carnage, or something similar, that they're "less than human." They simply don't know Nohr's struggles, and Mikoto herself is resistant to change.

Nohr, on the other hand, would be a Social Darwinist country Up To Eleven. These people struggle to survive a lot of the time, and thus, weakness has been stamped out and is scorned. If you're not actively contributing the way they say you should be contributing (i.e., if you're something like an artist), you're essentially SOL. They'd be a very militaristic culture, with very little sympathy for those that they conquer. It's not necessarily that they're inherently evil, but when it's "us or them," (a simplification), then they'll chose "us" every single time. People who don't match up to the standard have a bad time. Their actions aren't justified, but are more explained.

Corrin would be the bridge. If they side with Nohr, they'd want to take steps to show the Nohrians that peace, kindness, generosity and goodwill go a long way. Rather than invading and fighting for everything you want, opening a dialogue is the far better option.

If they side with Hoshido, they'd have to help the Hoshidans and their siblings get over their xenophobia and kneejerk reactions, showing them that "different" doesn't mean "lesser" or "bad." Maybe Hoshido could share some of its abundant resources with Nohr? It's a matter of trust.

In my eyes, the Revelation path is meant to be the "true" path, i.e., that's when Corrin finally snaps back Nohr and Hoshido to their senses, makes them realize that they're being idiots in different ways, and that they need to bond together or be destroyed. And considering that Revelation wasn't available until a few weeks after the first two, ideally it wouldn't unlock until at least one of the other paths was completed.

Edited because I hit "send" too early. Dammit. Lol.

edited 24th Feb '17 9:21:09 AM by ILikeRobots

All good ideas. That said, I do have another question:

Okay, so...would such a situation still happen in Birthright? And if it did, how would Corrin respond to it. Or any other such actions on Hoshido's part? Or on Nohr's for that matter?

If it were up to me, I would have it all be one game with siding with Hoshido or Nohr being based on a few dialogue choices in the first few chapters. Revelation would only be unlocked by picking exact choices.

I'm not the original poster of those ideas, but I don't see a chapter with Mikoto's barrier in Nohr being in Birthright, considering that it would be a little pointless to have a chapter in which the enemies couldn't fight back at all.

Though I would have it be referenced in dialogue - maybe, at one point on the path, Corrin walks in on Yukimura and Mikoto discussing the possibility of taking a more pro-active stance in the war against Nohr, to the point of a possible counter-invasion of Nohr, with Mikoto's barrier up to prevent the Nohrians from fighting back.

Yukimura would say something like, "It would be the same as putting down a group of rabid dogs."

Corrin would be shocked by the notion, and it would be one of the clues to tip them off that Hoshido isn't necessarily the "good guy" here any more than Nohr is. She ultimately wouldn't go through with it, except on the Conquest path there would be no Corrin to change her mind.

@Karkat The Dalek: Peace vs. Power. It was the theme for the earliest Fates promotional material. Shame it wasn't reflected in the final product.

@dragonfire5000: Make the final bosses of the split paths more like that one. But seriously, the existence of Revelations hurts the other paths by creating a Golden Ending where everything works out. There's no price, no regrets in taking that route.

If you absolutely have to have it, go full SMT and kill both families.

That's a good idea. I'm liking this revised Hoshido, actually - having Corrin make a positive impact on things helps a lot.

...So what sort of impact could you have on Nohr in Conquest and what would the final battle look like there?

edited 24th Feb '17 9:48:12 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Well, there is a regret if your favorite pairing is the Avatar and Scarlet or the Avatar and Gunter...

Erm...which of my statements was that supposed to be in response to?

Because that's not really persuading me that your idea is a good one.

Ha! True.

The part where you say you hated every bit of the idea. I'm not basing it on nothing.

Ah, okay.

I just think that's the least interesting route to take it, is all. Making things more complicated would be a better story. In particular, your ideas for the Nohr siblings are...well, I think they're bad ideas.

edited 24th Feb '17 10:17:57 AM by KarkatTheDalek

I think the ultimate plot of Fates is already unnecessarily complicated, and I like complications. Too much build up that doesn't pay off, and there's stuff like Lilith that happens with no buildup.

Speaking of which, she does need to be a party character.

I mean, if you think things are overly complicated, that's one thing (I don't, for the record - I just think aspects of the presentation need work), but "Nohr siblings are evil" seems like the worst possible fix for that. We can do better.

edited 24th Feb '17 10:49:45 AM by KarkatTheDalek

seriously- the best part of the Conquest route were the characters and how they weren't all evil, but rather more complex characters.

taking that away seems really shortsighted

Yeah, people complain that the only story reason to choose Nohr is the likable characters. Making its characters unlikable is the absolute worst way to try to balance things. It just tips the scale even further towards Hoshido without adding any value at all.

edited 24th Feb '17 10:53:40 AM by IniuriaTalis

So my rewrite of Garon would have him closer to his children, to the point that he does regularly converse with them about his plans and goals. Garon is still ruthless as all get-out, but he's got a soft spot for them, and it's another extension of his selfish "we are the priority" mentality. Iago is still his top advisor, though, and Iago looks down upon Corrin for their optimistic attitude and trust in people.

On the whole, Corrin at times voices dissent with Garon's orders, only for Garon to shut him or her down with "you're naive, and don't know how the world works. Talking will do nothing. Do you want your people to starve while we waste time talking?"

Even the other royals will shake their heads at Corrin; even if they don't agree with all of Garon's orders, they buy into that mentality and agree that it's "for the best."

Corrin at times will sue for an audience with the Hoshidans, only for Nohr's reputation to be thrown back in his or her face. I.e. "Why would we waste time talking to bloodthirsty savages like you? You Nohrians are all the same!"

Corrin would have to face that they have a point; they'd work from there trying to introduce compassion and mercyto Nohr. For instance, on Conquest Corrin would straight up challenge Hans, letting Scarlet and the others escape. Scarlet would gonna know to the Hoshidans and vouch for Corrin. Garon would grow increasingly frustrated with Corrin, to the point that the path culminates in Corrin's final confrontation with him.

I take it that in your rewrite, Garon is still alive? Because the last time I checked, Garon was pretty close to his children and, had he still been alive, would've never thought of killing any of his children, unlike Anankos's crony.

Then again, considering how much he loved Arete, I wonder if he even would've attacked Hoshido at all considering that his sister-in-law is there, and Arete does seem to love Mikoto a lot.

Wait, so Garon's the final boss either way?

Do we still fight possessed!Takumi?

Even Elise? That doesn't really seem to fit her.

Is Iago still evil? I'll admit I kind of want him to be.

Then again, would the real Garon have allowed someone as slimy as Iago to be his advisor? The game never really says when Iago got that position, right?

edited 24th Feb '17 11:09:59 AM by dragonfire5000

I don't think the fundamental premise of Fates needs to be rewritten, more the way the story plays out. Birthright needs to be more about fighting an actual war and less about searching for your brothers and randomly traveling from place to place. Conquest should have Corrin and the siblings turn on Garon much earlier (Chapter 14 already has the perfect setup for this, with Azura's song possbly revealing his true form). Then you can have either Ryoma or Takumi decide that this is the best time to neutralize the Nohrian threat once and for all and the rest of the plot can be about defending Nohr and convincing the Hoshidans that you've changed.

edited 24th Feb '17 4:15:47 PM by Druplesnubb

I'm down with that.