Linky no worky.

Yeah tropes chewed it up I didn't see the percent signs in it and I can't get to tiny url atm. I commented it out so copy paste should work.

www.interpol.int/Media/Files/INTERPOL-Expertise/IGLC/Resistance-of-Exterior-Walls-to-High-Velocity-Projectiles-%E2%80%93-Technical-Report-CPRC Please note this is a PDF. Not a big one but a pdf none the less.

edited 11th Sep '15 4:56:52 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Neat stuff. How can stucco be so sturdy to small arms fire? I've put ball peen hammers through that stuff before. It's not supposed to be super durable.

Physics weirdness?

I am guessing it is partly that. Stucco may act like sand in sand bags does when pulverized by high velocity impacts. That is it creates a lot of friction around the round. That and not all stucco is created equal. Most modern stucco can be pretty thin and it also depends on what the backing it is applied to. Stucco over drywall for instance is not going to be all that durable. Then there is wood, concrete sheets, and the various types of brick with stucco layers.

edited 11th Sep '15 6:46:51 PM by TuefelHundenIV

A lot of modern construction materials are lighting as Technology Marches On. Much stucco in the Southwest is a conventional 2x4 framed wall with some foam insulation, wooden boards, more foam on the outside, concrete on a wire frame and then "stucco" over it. Much faster than the old ways.

A friend of mine lived in a house built by a mining engineer that was almost 100 years old. The walls were rock held with mortar and the interor walls were adobe. Adobe houses are still made, but it's the time that limits them to the rich (oh the irony).

So a modern house usually is just wood and some insulation. Older house might have more wood and some office spaces use metal to put them up faster.

A lot of things can happen when a gun is shot at a wall....

There's a fair few houses of adobe here in Colorado. They aren't rich folks' houses. (Though they tend to be either smaller, older, simpler or a combination of the three.)

Of course, the local arts museum in Pueblo can teach you how to make your own adobe the traditional way as has been done in this area for centuries.

Adobe construction is not much more expensive then normal housing unless you are hiring a bunch of expensive contractors for the work. Even better it is now common to add something like a bag of quickcrete to the traditional, straw, water, and clay mix to make a more robust adobe and "stucco" layer.

Some of the houses are adobe out here, there was a period where adobe was en vogue in The '80s, then Deader Than Disco in The '90s.

Now around the world there is different construction. What seems like a solid wall can be just some studs and drywall, hence round sail right through it.

A big criticism of giving cops M-4's and M-16's was that some departments were using surplus ammo (some even using "green tip"). That would punch right through most walls: from the crapsack shanty to even the McMansion. Many ammo makers have 5.56 rounds for police that avoid the "overpenetration" problem. Hornady for instance has their TAP (Tactical Application Police) that comes in 5.56mm.

edited 12th Sep '15 10:34:18 AM by TairaMai

AR-15 platform frangibles have been around for a long time and readily available to police in quantity. I have some doubts about the green tip claim outside of maybe a few rare examples.

I still think they should stick with submachine guns like they use to before the US started turning them into a third military. Almost all the people they deal with don't have body armor anyways. What's next? They gonna start giving the cops LM Gs?

edited 12th Sep '15 12:07:42 PM by Bat178

There are some problems with SMG's. First they are just pistol rounds which means limited range and less power per shot. More then a pistol in some cases but way less then out of rifle. Second in terms of cost they are not a huge difference from AR-15 or other modular rifle systems. Third being modular you can turn an AR-15 into a lower velocity weapon if you need to or easily tune it up into a DMR weapon and use it as a sniper weapon. Fourth frangible out of the higher velocity rifles give more reach and accuracy over SMG's and pistols while reducing splash and ricochet just as effectively as using a frangible in a pistol. Finally most cops do not have an AR they have pistols and shotguns. This whole militarized police thing and rolling hotter then the military is overblown and frankly bunk. At best it is a gross oversimplification of the bigger picture at worst scare mongering and media shit stirring.

Yeah, there are reasons to give cops proper rifles and so on.

I doubt all the MP5s and Glocks in the world would have really helped in the Hollywood Shootout.

The problem isn't so much the gear as it is attitudes made infinitely worse by having easy access to such powerful gear.

edited 12th Sep '15 12:53:33 PM by LeGarcon

Better marksmanship on the part of the police would have. Knowing to shoot for the legs/head/arms even if all you do is force the guy to take cover would have helped a lot faster than bringing in some AR-15s or whatnot.

Really, there are few if any situations where shotguns and submachineguns are not suitable for police work. Most of them happen to deal with either sharpshooting or wild animals.

30-40yd head shots with a hand gun under combat conditions. Forget it. Add both of those two had body armor on their arms and legs. It took AR bullets to penetrate the thinner leg armor on one and the other blew his own brains out after lucky hits injured him.

If memory serves the cops had to go raid a local gun store for higher caliber weaponry because SWAT was taking too long to arrive.

The head is not the only option. If you can't manage in 8-12 shots to hit a man sized pelvis and thighs at 30 meters or less you don't belong on the streets. You're more a danger to bystanders than the criminals.

Well you might be able to do that reliably on a firing range.

But hiding behind a cop car that does nothing to stop the hail of 7.62 rounds coming at you? I doubt you could pull it off.

These guys were armored from their necks to their shins. This is what they were wearing with some minor variation between the two.◊ It was custom body armor made from real body armor. Notice the groin and hip protection and how those legging bits go all the way down. That left their heads and a very small section of arm and their hands.

Hitting the pelvic area is not that easy either. Again 30-40yds on a moving target in combat conditions. You are again shooting at a target about the size of someones head. They had additional bits not pictured in that set.

edited 12th Sep '15 9:40:13 PM by TuefelHundenIV

At 30 meters center mass isn't much different size wise than the combined area of the pelvis + thighs. If you can't hit the latter, what makes you think you can hit the former? Then what makes you think you should be in that situation at all?

Do we need to just take away all the firearms from the police until they figure out basic marksmanship? How can you be so bad at so close? It ain't fucking Afghanistan and firing 300+ meters onto the other side of a canyon.

Tom: You have wholly unrealistic expectations and honestly should know better by this point.

First the torso is a significantly bigger target in all dimensions and the chance of landing a hit there is statistically significant compared to all other locations even by accident. That you need to be reminded of this is disappointing to say the least. Second the pelvic area is the money shot not the thighs again you should know better by this point. Third the legs are limbs and limbs move that makes them a bit harder to hit with any degree of accuracy under combat and limb hits can easily be overcome with the wounded continuing to fight effectively yes that includes hits to the thighs. Fourth in combat accuracy is way different then sitting on a firing line or a shoot ground. Fifth and finally what part of 30-40yds with a hand gun didn't you get? You cannot expect even carbine accuracy from their weapons in this situation. The vast majority of handguns reliable combat accuracy is around 30-40yds max for a wide number of reasons with longer shots only being possible under circumstances lining up right.

Nearly every cop was suppressed by enemy fire, often fighting from cover that was largely compromised by superior fire power, the enemy did not stand around picking their noses but moved around and even small movement makes small targets like the head, pelvic area, and specific limb hits quite a bit harder, and the enemy was very well protected all over their bodies including their legs thighs and pelvic areas. The only way it could have been notably worse was if they were wearing this◊.Or more then just two but a fire teams worth. As it was two rank amateurs were well protected and pinned down and kept occupied a larger number of armed officers because numerous factors played in their favour. Remember in all combat scenarios with gun fire the bullet expenditure to casualty ratio is very high often numbering in the hundreds to thousands of rounds per. That is military professionals who are combat veterans with comparable equipment to those two yahoos. W hat you basically just said is no different then " deliberately aimed non-lethal gun shot" myth for all the exact same reasons that one is bunk.

Once again your views on what is reasonably possible in those conditions is skewed and unrealistic.

Given how poor quality cops seem to have become of late, higher expectations of any kind even unrealistic ones is not unreasonable.

edited 13th Sep '15 8:22:11 AM by MajorTom

No unrealistic expectations are unrealistic there is no weasel wording that one. Current issues with police has zero to do with your unrealistic views and the harsh reality of accuracy in combat.

File This Under: How Was That Even Possible?

A Real Life Rendezook. With a 1911!

A case of absolutely amazing luck.

Sooo.... this guy files a patent to use canola oil and other veggies and "some other stuff" (but mostly veggie oil) to make a gun cleaner/lube. And he got Larry Vickers to endorse it!

That's like having David Beckham endorsing crystals healing in sports medicine or Bill Nye endorsing a Creationist book.

At least Froglube says they use veggie oils and plant extracts. Fireclean and it's founder Edward Sugg are the kinds of hucksters they used to write folk songs about...

edited 15th Sep '15 9:39:44 AM by TairaMai