It's a Gundam thread!

Well when I say 'work' I mean just being internally consistent and playing his role in the story. I don't mean to mean to mince words and defend Manga!Garma relative to Anime!Garma. Anime!Garma is by far superior and it's disappointing to see Manga!Garma relegated to a jerkass. But I don't think it should dissuade someone from checking it out.

Well I don't think he was supposed to be a villain in MSG. An antagonist yes, but more of a rival to Amuro. I might be splitting hairs from your point of view, but I think he works in the way of say a Type V Anti-Hero who also fights the protagonist. Its understandable if that doesn't work for you, but that's how I view it. I won't argue with you about his Memetic Badass status being pretty overblown though.

edited 22nd Mar '12 9:35:17 AM by sirnoob

Holy hell, Kai's back?

Whether he was intended to be the villain or not, he's The Heavy for multiple episodes, and as such I wish he had a larger personality. That being said, I think you're right about this conversation not really going anywhere.

By the way, I note that no one ever answered my question from a few posts back: does Yazan Gable qualify as The Brute? I certainly think that he plays a very similar role among the Titans to the one Decil Galette plays for the UE, functioning as an attack dog and Ace Pilot but not someone you would ever want to give a lot of power to.

EDIT: Char, you do not get to lecture Amuro on getting over Lalah. Heck, you don't get to lecture Amuro on anything.

edited 22nd Mar '12 9:49:56 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

edited 22nd Mar '12 11:02:29 AM by sirnoob

Wat. While both are still haunted by her in CCA, its Char who's fucked up by her the most.

I think I can see why Zeta would make you especially bitter towards him, and I'm glad that kind of shit is kept to a minimum in CCA. Actually, it kinda reminds me of that time in the X-Men where Magneto ran the Mutant Academy in place of Xavier and was actually kind of a good guy before reverting back to being evil again. Sorta see Char as Magneto to Amuro's Xavier.

To change the subject a little, at least he has more of a presence than the Char Clone from Victory Gundam. Chronicle Asher was such a non-entity to the point that Katejina made a better Char Clone, even though her characterization didn't make a lick of sense.

edited 22nd Mar '12 11:14:28 AM by Scherzo09

I know. That's why it ticks me off so much. It's bad enough that they have Amuro acting like he and Char are buddies, but making Char the responsible one who is able to give valuable life lessons to Amuro? Truly one of the most painful things I've ever watched. It's too bad, because otherwise Amuro's appearances (even with the nonesense from Char, Frau Bow, and that idiot Beltorchika) are among the best things in Zeta.

I've actually read some of those arcs with the good Magneto in the comics. They were weird and kind of dumb, but I can (sort of) accept it from a comic book. I expect better from Gundam. Consistency people, it's all about consistency.

Victory in general was just damn weird. And yeah, Asher's just sort of...there. It's almost as if they wrote the show and then realised, "hey we need a Char knockoff. Write him in."

It seems to me though that the skeletal frame of a good idea; Char and Amuro learning to put aside their differences and fight a common foe while learning to trust each other and actually kind of befriending each other along the way. That would be a much better payoff for Char's eventual relapse into petty vendettas in CCA and his final battle with Amuro. Hell, I wish THAT is what Zeta was about; not dragging out some new Newtype.

Isn't Chronicle like the first Char Clone? Iron Mask from F91 isn't so much a Char Clone as he is a Darth Vader Clone.

edited 22nd Mar '12 3:01:08 PM by Scherzo09

The weirdest thing about Chronicle was him randomly putting on and taking off his mask, as if he couldn't decide on his status as a Char Clone.

He only wore it in battle, right?

It may have been a fireproof balaclava, like F1 racers wear.

& He said he can't stand the dirt and dust on earth.

So Kamille can beat up soldiers with no training whatsoever, but One Year War veteran Amuro can't handle a couple of security guys. And while it's nice to see Mirai again, I should have seen it coming "I want my children raised in space." Why Mirai? Why do you want your children raised in space? So they can live under the Titans' boots? So they can get caught up in the next Zeonic revolution? Or because Tomino thinks "space is awesome!?"

I love how Luo Wong's daughter thinks "carefully checking out anyone who says her father's name" equates to "have goons punch them in the face." Did Tomino have a fetish for getting beaten? And of course she too lectures Amuro afterwards. I'm starting to think Tomino didn't like the poor guy very much.

And of course, Four's arrival promptly sparks a "magic Newtype connection" between her and Kamille. It's about as forced as I remember it being. It worked okay with Amuro and Lalah. I ain't buying it again. Seriously, I love how Gundam fans will rant about Strangled by the Red String relationships in later installments but give Amuro/Lalah and Kamille/Four a pass. "But it's so tragic!" Yeah. The girl started a fight in the middle of a city, while ranting about how she "didn't take orders from the enemy." A real keeper there.

Also, I love how Hayato sends Kamille out to fight the second the Psyco Gundam appears. Why? She's just sitting there, not attacking anyone waiting for you. Until Kamille sortied she was no threat to Hayato or his men. It's easy to see how he became such a successful leader of Karaba. Fortunately, Four is not what you'd call a real competent adversary, so I guess all's well that ends well.

EDIT: And Amuro gives the "gravity pulls your soul down" line. I gotta say, it does not get better with repition. Tomino, you moron, you're from Earth.

edited 22nd Mar '12 4:29:20 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

It was shown in the first episode that Kamille did judo classes at school, and was very good at it. Amuro was OK at CQC, but it wasn't the primary focus of his combat experience by a long shot.

edited 22nd Mar '12 4:28:29 PM by Iaculus

Except he wasn't shown to be very good at it. He was shown ditching practise. And I don't care how good your judo is, you don't beat up multiple soldiers that easily and get away. Especially not supposed elites like the Titans. I'm going to file it under "Kamille's an unber-Newtype" and forget it ever happened.

It's funny—a lot of my posts have complained about Kamille, but I honestly have nothing against the character. Kamille, as he's presented, doesn't bother me. I don't think I'd want to be friends with him, but I have no issues with his being the main character and the hero of the show. It's the way the other characters are either a) made into losers to help hype him, or b) spend all their time talking about how great he is. Kamille hasn't done a thing to make me hate him (question his judgement yes) but the rest of the cast is doing it for him.

EDIT: I will, by the way, love Kamille forever for calling Beltorchika on her, well, everything.

EDIT: If the gravity in the colonies is artificial, does that mean it only pulls artificial souls down.

edited 22nd Mar '12 4:56:32 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Weird, I always thought the whole "Their souls are weighed down by gravity" thing was Zabi rhetoric, since its used by Kcyilia in the opening of IGLOO II, which is all about heroic Feddies fighting off the Zekes on earth.

I don't really see Amuro and Lalah as being a romantic relationship, just more like that as a newtype she touched him and Char in a special way. That's how I see it at least.

It's becoming more and more apparent to me that Tomino really didn't put as much thought into this as MSG. Seems more focused on soapboxing his asinine philosophy about space than actually developing the world or the characters. It's kinda sad really.

I mean, its so fucking annoying how EVERYTHING boils down to the Fantastic Aesop of Mankind "needs to move into space if he wants to truly evolve!"

edited 22nd Mar '12 5:03:50 PM by Scherzo09

Try telling that bit about Lalah to a good chunk of the fanbase. They just think it's the most touching and tragic relationship ever. And don't get me started on Kamille/Four. The number of people I've heard bashing Destiny because Stella is a poor man's Four. You know what? I felt sorry for Stella. I have no sympathy for Four. Her death scene was in one of the episodes I've seen before. The first time, I felt nothing. This time, I'm going to cheer.

And oh god is Tomino ever using it as a soapbox. "Space this," and "space that," and (gag) "souls weighed down by gravity," and "Newtypes", and don't get me started on "Earthnoid" and "Spacenoid" and would you just stop and tell the story. That's what frustrates me: Zeta isn't a bad story. Nor does it have a bad main character, or bad villains. It has a good main character, good villains, and what could be a decent conflict if they stopped blithering about philosophy and focused on it.

It can be argued however, you are desensitized to Four's death by virtue of exposure rather than by virtue of bad writing. Just saying.

I think the conflict between Earthnoids and Spacenoids could be well done in a way that relates to the real world. I mean, the oppression of Spacenoids by the EF, as much as its just used by a tool by callous Zeonists to commit even worse atrocities, is a real thing and thats one of the reasons I liked MSG; that you could see why a decent person who happened to be born on Side 3 would want to fight and risk their lives for it. And I think later installments with their overfixation on Zeon's philosophy to the point of absurdity really hurts the setting and characters to me. That's one of my worries about getting invested in Unicorn; it seems to be going down that same damn route.

I dunno, having played a bit of FFVII, I can definitely see why Aerith's death was a big emotional deal because she does have a character to her.

edited 22nd Mar '12 5:49:26 PM by Scherzo09

I doubt it. I knew going into Gundam SEED who was going to bite it, but I still felt sad for most of them. Same for Destiny and even Season 1 of 00. Heck, I managed to bring up some genuine sadness for Garma, Dozle, and Ramba Ral (though not Lalah), and everyone who's even slightly familiar with the franchise knows about those. The reason I ain't sad about Four is the same reason I'm not sad about Lalah—I don't like her, albeit for very different reasons. As for the first time, bad writing is really all I've got to go on there.

edited 22nd Mar '12 5:56:32 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Zeta's final villain, Scirocco, is a Jovian. Jupiter's gravity is the greatest in the solar system. Souls pulled down by gravity, hmm... Anyway, it seems clear to me that although Tomino sucks at many things, Zeta is not exactly a soapbox for him to say all he wants to say.

As was already mentioned on this forum, neither side of the Earth vs Space conflict is right in what they do. The point that Tomino was trying to do, I think, was that even if humanity were to have a ludicrous evolution into Newtypes, or achieve great acts such as mass migration into space, not that much would change: war would still happen, and as UC has proven repeatedly Newtypes are mostly used as petty pawns and weapons of war. And those that are Newtypes and rise to positions of power tend to abuse it: Scirocco, Haman, and even Char himself.

In this sense I think Gundam is similar to A Song Of Ice And Fire. Yes, people live in a sci-fi/fantasy world. Shit still happens, heroes don't always win, ruthless villains are hard to kill and there isn't a side with a clear moral higher ground. People keep being people, repeating their mistakes. Bad stuff happens to good people. Anyone Can Die. On the flip side, there's almost always people out there willing to fight for their believes, people who are selfless, who would do anything in their power to stop conflict, to protect those they care about.

I think this is what Gundam means: Humans are almost always their worst enemies. Selfish, arrogant, focused on their own problems, unable to see the big picture. Even Newtypes, who were originally speculated to be able to stop such things, cannot stop war on their own. Gundam has its feet firmly sunk in reality and cynicism. It's not Earth vs. Space or whether it's right to do one thing or the other; it's just humans against humans. The main instigators of conflict always try to justify their acts, like Zeon Colony Dropping Earth the first time or again when Char tries the same on a larger scale for a different reason. But those ideologies and beliefs are always up to debate, as they are in real life.

Tomino wasn't preaching, he was trying to make the audience think and speculate.

So no, Scherzo, moving into space wouldn't change a bloody thing. NOT A DAMN THING. It's only people in the show itself that believe things like that. You know, I kinda have to wonder what Gundam would be like without Newtypes...

edited 22nd Mar '12 6:07:22 PM by Crinias

Thanks, I was just about to make that same point, but you beat me to it.

I don't really think so; I think Tomino really believes in the idea of Mankind living in harmony in space. I don't think its necessarily WRONG to have that as an ideal, but whether you believe in it or not, putting that debate ahead of all other characterization and plotting just kills a lot of the setting.

You can argue what Tomino 'intended' all you want, but what matters is what you get. That's why I can't really argue with how Ambar was 'meh' on Char. This isn't an argument about the message he's trying to get across. Its about how he conveys it.

As for Lalah, I do get what you mean. I thought Lalah was alright, but there isn't really that much there since her and Amuro interact for like what, an episode?

edited 22nd Mar '12 6:16:25 PM by Scherzo09

If that was what Tomino was trying to do, he does a darn poor job of it. Regardless of if he was trying to make the audience think or not, the incredibly hamfisted way that he delivers his message (by having every bloody character, none of whom have expressed these sentiments before) talk about how wonderful everything is in space. Yeah Scirocco is a living middle finger to that message. It's why I like the creepy, mind-raping bastard. But it's barely commented on, and by the time he really makes his presence felt, the audience has either agreed with Char, Kamille, person-who-looks-like-they-might-have-once-been-Mirai, and the rest of the "space is good" brigade, or if they are a resistant reader/viewer like myself, been thorougly annoyed to the point where they do not care anymore. Whatever Tomino's objective was, he doesn't do it very well.

My issue with Lalah is that she's less of a character and more of a plot device. She's there to introduce the concept of Newtypes and die, making Char and Amuro hate each other more. There's not a hell of a lot to dislike about her, but there's not much to like either, and her hero worship of Char ("you're so cruel to attack him") and her lecturing Amuro on how he has nothing to fight for (which still makes no bloody sense to me) are grating. I couldn't have gotten attached to her if I'd wanted to because she just isn't around long enough. Also, I confess, I don't deal well with ditzy, spacy, yet superpowerful characters to start with.

Quess is the one that gets my hate boner raging in that regard, but that goes without saying. I do think Lalah had potential to be something more than she was, but in the end she just didn't leave all that much of an impact.

(Edit: Wait wat. Wat are YOU fighting for Lalah? So you can be Char's pet? That's.... yeah)

And honestly, I've said this before, but when you turn a conflict from being about real issues like the real atrocities committed by the Titans, however internally justified they may be, to some vague philosophical struggle that strangles every other bit of characterization and plotting, you're really shooting your whole universe in the kneecaps.

And I think its kinda ironic because in MSG it swung both ways; the older citizens of Side 7 wanted to be delivered back to Earth because they wanted to go back to where they came from, instead of wasting away in space.

edited 22nd Mar '12 6:35:55 PM by Scherzo09

Quess...yech. Spoiled little girl with a thing for older men. "He's just so mature." I've met girls like that. I'm never sure if they need a therapist or a punch in the face.

Lalah I think could have been a good character if she'd been introduced earlier. If they'd brought her in as Char's right hand woman from fairly early on, given her some character development, and then had her and Amuro meet outside of combat you might have gotten a decent story out of it. That's what they tried to do with Four, but unfortunately, Four is introduced laughing while she burns a city down and so it falls a little flat. Lalah, however irritating I may find her at times, is not a bad person, and so I think a story like that might have had some potential.

Exactly. The Titans are scum. Bask Om is a friggin' psycho. We don't need the philosophy to know who to side with. In fact the philosophising is detrimental because it makes Kamille, Char, et al. less sympathetic.

edited 22nd Mar '12 6:36:20 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar